Germany reverses on Palestinian bid at UN General Assembly

posted at 11:21 am on November 29, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

The UN General Assembly will vote later today to admit the Palestinian Authority as a non-voting observer state, the first official recognition of statehood for the Palestine by the world body — boosted by Western approval, or at least tacit approval.  Germany announced earlier this morning that it had reversed its earlier position and decided to abstain rather than oppose the resolution, which recognizes the Palestinian state as defined by 1967 borders:

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas and the Palestinian people are enjoying sweeping support in the lead up to Thursday night’s vote at the UN General Assembly over whether to upgrade the Palestinians’ standing to non-member observer status. By Thursday morning Israel time, that support had turned into a full-on landslide, as more European nations decided to alter their positions, essentially leaving Israel to fend for itself.

Early Thursday morning, just hours before the vote — scheduled to take place around 11:00 P.M. (Israel time) — Germany changed its mind, deciding to abstain from voting rather than opposing the Palestinian initiative, as Israel had assumed it would.

“The decision wasn’t taken lightly,” Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said. “Germany shares the goal for a Palestinian state. We have campaigned for this in many ways, but the recent decisive steps towards real statehood can only be the result of negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians,” the German official said.

The UN General Assembly is expected to pass a historic resolution recognizing Palestine within the 1967 borders as a non-member observer state.

Until now, the Western position had been that the borders had to be drawn as part of an agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority in a two-state settlement.  Israel has repeatedly committed to the two-state solution, in both English and Hebrew, the official languages of its state.  Mahmoud Abbas has committed to a permanent two-state solution only in English to international audiences; when speaking in Arabic to his own people, he has never committed to recognition of Israel as a permanent sovereign state [see update].

Ha’aretz includes this helpful graphic to show Israel’s diplomatic isolation on forcing the Palestinians to negotiate for statehood recognition:

Only Canada, Guatemala, the Czech Republic, and the US (among Ha’aretz’ “major players”) have publicly announced opposition to the proposal to recognize Palestine as a state without Palestinian recognition of Israel as a state — even though Israel is a member of the UN.

Jeff Dunetz says there are more defects in the proposal than just that:

According to article 4 of the United Nations charter membership is reserved for states (and “peace loving” states at that. But Abbas the man who arraigned the financing for the Munich Massacre, is asking for “non-member state” status” so his terrorist organization Fatah can join the International Criminal Court and wage “Lawfare” against Israel.

Palestine does not even meet the minimum qualifications of a state under international law. As CAMERA points out:

Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States provides the internationally recognized criteria of statehood:

The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a) a permanent population; b) a defined territory; c) government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states.

This Palestinian entity, which will be called a state by the UN today, has none of the above.

Why did Germany switch its vote?  The UK’s decision to switch swayed a lot of thinking in Europe, according to one Israeli official:

This, in effect, leaves Israel without any European country supporting it at the international forum. Officials in Israel said that Germany’s decision was influenced by Britain. “Britain’s dramatic reversal prompted the Germans to change their mind,” a Foreign Ministry official said. “We lost Europe. More than half of its countries will vote with the Palestinians, and the rest will abstain.”

Except for the Czechs, of course, who know what it’s like to have their country carved up and treated as fodder by Europeans pursuing deluded notions of appeasement.  Some lessons just never quite sink in.

Update: Commenter Lexhamfox supplies a quote from Abbas in Arabic from September of this year:

Abbas said in a press conference following the meeting that Palestine recognizes Israel and that Israel has to recognize the independent state of Palestine too.

SOUNDBITE 1 (Arabic) – Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:

“Israel is an existing state and we recognize it. We recognize it although certain authorities or states do not recognize it. We recognize a state on the 1967 border and the Israelis have to recognize us too. Israel is required to recognize the Palestinian state according to the two-state solution.”

Abbas said that if Israel wants to complete negotiations it has to recognize the two-state solution according to [1967] borders, adding added that Palestinian UN membership could stop the Israeli settlement construction.

Update II: Via The Week, the liberal Tikkun is optimistic:

The U.S. and Israel should welcome the Palestinian Authority’s proposal, says Rabbi Michael Lerner at Tikkun. “The authority has agreed to return to negotiations with Israel without conditions once that status has been granted,” with the goal of “a state living in peace with Israel in borders roughly approximating those of the [era] before than 1967 war, with minor border changes mutually agreeable through negotiations.” Hamas, on the other hand, wants nothing short of Israel’s destruction. And the only way it can achieve that is by provoking war to keep the Palestinian people living in fear. “So the last thing Hamas wants is for the Palestinian Authority to win popular esteem by being seen as having ‘delivered’ a real tangible accomplishment to the Palestinian people in the form of statehood.”

If this leads to a settlement with which Israel can guarantee its existence as a sovereign nation and establish the two-state solution (or perhaps three-state, now) in fact rather than theory, then I will celebrate it.  So far, I’m not as optimistic about that outcome from this event.  We’ll see if Abbas keeps his promise to return to negotiations after this passes, or instead just starts filing complaints at The Hague.


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Comment pages: 1 2

First!

NCPatriot75 on November 29, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Smart Power!!!!

SoRight on November 29, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Just shameful, Germany. I thought Holocaust denial was illegal there.

Red Cloud on November 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM

Just shameful, Germany. I thought Holocaust denial was illegal there.

Red Cloud on November 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM

They still have lots of that stolen Jew loot to sell at those camel flea markets.

msupertas on November 29, 2012 at 11:29 AM

Great, now the muz’s will seek to upset proceedings with loud protesting whenever they get bombed for shooting rockets at Isreal.

jake49 on November 29, 2012 at 11:30 AM

I guess Czechoslovakia 1938 wasn’t enough of a lesson to them.

TonyR on November 29, 2012 at 11:33 AM

Germany reverses on Palestinian bid at UN General Assembly

Germany now=Ford Focus+120mph+Brick wall… Have fun Germany, hope your seat-belt is on guten Tag errr good and tight…

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 11:34 AM


Except for the Czechs, of course, who know what it’s like to have their country carved up and treated as fodder by Europeans pursuing deluded notions of appeasement. Some lessons just never quite sink in.

Does more need to be said?

By the time I exit this realm in oh say 20 years or so…

The world, America as we know it will be radically changed…

Scrumpy on November 29, 2012 at 11:34 AM

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

RationalIcthus on November 29, 2012 at 11:36 AM

On the issue of these rop types, here is an article of the number of terror attacks since 9/11! If you think these sub-humans will ever stop trying to kill anyone who doen’t come around to their thinking, they won’t stop! And their main effort is it to get rid of Israel, the Jews, and yes even from the way they act, the US!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/grim-milestone-approaching-20000-jihad-terror-attacks-worldwide-since-911.html

God be with you Israel.
L

letget on November 29, 2012 at 11:36 AM

What a sad , sad day . I read 4 Britt papers on most days . They have big ” Asian ” problems
that they refuse to recognize . You think now those ” Asians ” are gonna’ love them now ?

Lucano on November 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM

Will this make it easier for Israel to declare war on the Palestinians, and pound them into submission?

If so, I support it, too.

Islam is all about submission; so, it actually sounds like a “win-win” proposition.

Droopy on November 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM

Except for the Czechs, of course, who know what it’s like to have their country carved up and treated as fodder by fodder by Europeans pursuing deluded notions of appeasement.

The Palestinians also know what it’s like to have their land carved up.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:38 AM

Wonderful
/

cmsinaz on November 29, 2012 at 11:40 AM

Except for the Czechs, of course, who know what it’s like to have their country carved up and treated as fodder by Europeans pursuing deluded notions of appeasement.

Hahaha! Man, I see that unskewing polls was not just an aberrant super power for the bald avenger! He also employs the power of ironic ignorance! Do you even know how Israel was formed? Damn, do you even proofread?

tommyhawk on November 29, 2012 at 11:40 AM

The ‘final solution’ by proxy.

Far as I’m concerned, the legacy of the Tausend Jahren Reich is that Germany has no vote in world affairs or a say on any question of morality until the year 2945.

Liam on November 29, 2012 at 11:41 AM

The United Nations is about to fulfill its decades long mission…to cut off the United States, Israel and allies from the rest of the world, the progressive world, the peace loving enlightened world.

Usher in a new world order touted in Bandung over 50 years ago. The anti-Colonialists have won. Barack had fulfilled his father’s (and uncle’s) most fervent wishes and dreams.

This Administration has gone the farthest in enabling this to move forward, as it seems the UN and the Obama Administration share the same goals.

If you thought Arafat was exhumed yesterday in order to conduct an autopsy, you are wrong. He is being prepared for his grand entrance into the General Assembly the moment Palestine is admitted as a “state” to the United Nations…non-voting status subject to change by popular acclamation.

Not a lot of allies out there to preclude any of this these days.

Obama has pissed off the few allies we had left, demonstrated contempt and duplicity to those who might have given us a favorable vote now and then, and shown all the rest that Obama’s America is as corrupt and weak as all the rest of the despotic Third World.

Hard to believe that in the short span of this Administration we’ve become like all of them.

Weak, corrupt, led by despots…

coldwarrior on November 29, 2012 at 11:41 AM

Islam is all about submission; so, it actually sounds like a “win-win” proposition.

Droopy on November 29, 2012 at 11:37 AM

A true Win-win situation would be all of Islam being nuked off the face of the earth. They would all get to go to Allah as martyrs in the great Jihad and we would be free of them. That would be a win-win situation.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 11:41 AM

Palistinian Contributions to the World

1. Suicide bombing.

2. Airplane hijacking.

3. Olympic athlete murdering.

4. Ringo Starr look-alike peophiles.

5. Terror missle strikes.

Miss anything?

Bruno Strozek on November 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

The Palestinians also know what it’s like to have their land carved up.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:38 AM

How can a fictional people who have never existed have fictional land that was never theirs know anything.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

There was an article in an Israeli paper, “Palestinians want to revisit the result of the Six-Days War”. And I thought to myself, “No problem – let’s show it to them again!”

Archivarix on November 29, 2012 at 11:44 AM

The Czechs remember.

America almost stands alone, Canada and little Guatemala on our side.

Bishop on November 29, 2012 at 11:45 AM

Another strong WIN for O and Hillary….esh

I pray for Israel and us.

CoffeeLover on November 29, 2012 at 11:45 AM

One other thing to consider:

Since it was the UN General Asssembly partition plan that helped to establish the State of Israel, I think we can assume, with formal recognition of the Palestinian state, that the UN will turn virilently anti-Palestinian too.

It stand to reason, right?

No?

Droopy on November 29, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Somewhere in the flames of Hell, a fuhrer is smiling.

UltimateBob on November 29, 2012 at 11:48 AM

Palistinian Contributions to the World

1. Suicide bombing.
2. Airplane hijacking.
3. Olympic athlete murdering.
4. Ringo Starr look-alike pedophiles.
5. Terror missile strikes.

Miss anything?

Bruno Strozek on November 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

How racist and xenophobic of you not to mention the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to Yassir Arafat after he had successfully passed through your five-point plan…

Archivarix on November 29, 2012 at 11:48 AM

The United States still has veto power in the UN, correct?

NotCoach on November 29, 2012 at 11:49 AM

The European left has always been anti-Israel and now they have a sizable, very angry, violent, mozlem population to fear.

So they choose appeasement.

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 11:49 AM

I was watching C-Span last night which was showing the British House of Commons ganging up of FM Hague (Both Labour and Tory, btw) on why the UK for vote ‘Palestine.’ It was sad, but not surprising to watch.

At least the Czechs still support Israel.

And remember this, when Israel fought for her Independence; it was only the Czech people who supplied Israel with arms.

Lance Murdock on November 29, 2012 at 11:50 AM

A true Win-win situation would be all of Islam being nuked off the face of the earth. They would all get to go to Allah as martyrs in the great Jihad and we would be free of them. That would be a win-win situation.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 11:41 AM

Genocide isn’t a win/win.

How can a fictional people who have never existed have fictional land that was never theirs know anything.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

If this dispute was about a fictional land maybe everyone would be better off. The trouble is its about a real land with real people.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:51 AM

Time for the un to move to the middle east

Don’t need to take up prime real estate in the us anymore

cmsinaz on November 29, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Mahmoud Abbas has committed to a permanent two-state solution only in English to international audiences; when speaking in Arabic to his own people, he has never committed to recognition of Israel as a permanent sovereign state.

SOUNDBITE 1 (Arabic) – Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas:
“Israel is an existing state and we recognize it. We recognize it although certain authorities or states do not recognize it. We recognize a state on the 1967 border and the Israelis have to recognize us too. Israel is required to recognize the Palestinian state according to the two-state solution.”

lexhamfox on November 29, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:38 AM

And just exactly where is this homeland you speak of – I am struggling to find this mythical Palestinian state of which you speak?

Zomcon JEM on November 29, 2012 at 11:54 AM

Fortunately for Israel, the U.S. has a strong U.N. ambassador who can recognize Islamic terrorism when she sees it, on whom they can rely. That has to help them sleep better at night.

a capella on November 29, 2012 at 11:55 AM

resolution, which recognizes the Palestinian state as defined by 1967 borders:

Uh, this might be a problem as soon as tomorrow.

Jabberwock on November 29, 2012 at 11:55 AM

The United States still has veto power in the UN, correct?

NotCoach on November 29, 2012 at 11:49 AM

The US does have veto power in the Security Council. But this vote is happening on the General Assembly floor, which US the cannot stop. To become a full member the PA will still have to go through the Security Council.

At the end of the day this will not change anything, but for one thing. The Palestinians plan on using their new status to try to bring war crime charges against Israel at the ICC.

Lance Murdock on November 29, 2012 at 11:56 AM

I still say they should go back to the ~1400BC borders.

The Rogue Tomato on November 29, 2012 at 11:56 AM

The Palestinians also know what it’s like to have their land carved up.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:38 AM

Israelis are Palestinians, too.

Gelsomina on November 29, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Starting to hope that December 21, 2012 end of the world Mayan prophecy is proven valid.

coldwarrior on November 29, 2012 at 11:58 AM

lexhamfox on November 29, 2012 at 11:53 AM

Added as an update — thanks.

Ed Morrissey on November 29, 2012 at 11:59 AM

Yeah, so do the Austria-Hungarians. There is no excuse for not recognizing their 1867 borders.

blink on November 29, 2012 at 11:49 AM

It would be wrong to argue “a people had their land carved up in the past, there is no excuse to not recognize their ___ borders” in a sort of blanket way. I wasn’t making that argument, just pointing out a bit of an irony.

And just exactly where is this homeland you speak of – I am struggling to find this mythical Palestinian state of which you speak?

Zomcon JEM on November 29, 2012 at 11:54 AM

Likewise, where was the state of Israel in 1947? Yet even without a state entity, the Israeli people existed on the land, same as Palestinian people existed on the land. It wasn’t an empty stretch of desert that suddenly became populated.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Except for the Czechs, of course, who know what it’s like to have their country carved up and treated as fodder by Europeans pursuing deluded notions of appeasement. Some lessons just never quite sink in.

I think Arabs know all about that too Ed.

lexhamfox on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Appeasement is alive and well.

JeremiahJohnson on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Two can play at this game. Perhaps Israel needs to scrounge up some revolutionary movements that it can extend “statehood recognition” to. Ummm, how about Chechnya? Where do China’s Uighurs hale from? Tibet obviously. Taiwan is an easy one. Taiwan used to be a member of the U.N. and have far more claim to statehood than the Palestinians. Submitting a formal statement about this would just be recognizing reality and letting the PRC and Taiwan go their separate ways until & unless they decides to merge. South Sudan, maybe?

Jill1066 on November 29, 2012 at 12:02 PM

The Palestinians also know what it’s like to have their land carved up.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:38 AM

Boo-hoo. Those poor, poor Palestinians. Is that why they strap bombs on their children and send them to their deaths? Is that why they suck up the world’s charity and never try to make anything of themselves?

Night Owl on November 29, 2012 at 12:04 PM

The ‘Palestinians’ never took up land after the UN partition in the late 1940s. Instead they wandered the region, causing trouble. Eventually they settled in Jordan, but their numbers grew so much and they were so violent the king there expelled them sometime around 1970.

Now they have their land, many of them have jobs in Israel, and they’re still a major problem. They murder even their own at an alarming rate, and have kept the world polarized for more than sixty years.

Far as I’m concerned, people like that don’t deserve a state, let alone recognition of it on the world stage.

Liam on November 29, 2012 at 12:04 PM

How racist and xenophobic of you not to mention the Nobel Peace Prize awarded to Yassir Arafat after he had successfully passed through your five-point plan…

Archivarix on November 29, 2012 at 11:48 AM

I though I covered that in #4, Ringo Starr look-alike pedophiles, but OK, I guess.

Bruno Strozek on November 29, 2012 at 12:05 PM

Likewise, where was the state of Israel in 1947? Yet even without a state entity, the Israeli people existed on the land, same as Palestinian people existed on the land. It wasn’t an empty stretch of desert that suddenly became populated.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

The argument sounds completely retarded to anyone who actually know the modern history of the region. The term “Palestinians”, as applied to Arab refugees of 1949 and 1969 wars, was coined by Soviet propaganda in the seventies. Previously, the term was actually synonymic to “Jews”. Do some reading before you post here; start with the Progressipedia, otherwise known as “wiki”.

Archivarix on November 29, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Except for the Czechs, of course, who know what it’s like to have their country carved up and treated as fodder by Europeans pursuing deluded notions of appeasement. Some lessons just never quite sink in.

Don’t forget the Poles.

Steve Eggleston on November 29, 2012 at 12:07 PM

Could this Jew request that we leave “Final Solution,” “Nazi,” etc. out of the discussion?

Just as Susan Rice’s qualifications to be Secretary of State have nothing to do with slavery, a Palestinian state has nothing to do with Hitler.

bobs1196 on November 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM

I wanted to vacation in the UK, France, & Germany again before I kick the bucket. No more…

Blake on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

If this dispute was about a fictional land maybe everyone would be better off. The trouble is its about a real land with real people.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:51 AM

1) Islam is not a race you imbecile, genocide only refers to the elimination of a specific ethnic group.

Thieves always claim that which the steal belongs to them.

a) Their has never been Palestinian People, they are a Fictional people created by the Black September Terrorist Organization as a pseudo justification to carry out the ambitions of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

b) There has never been a Nation of Palestine, it was the Nation of Israel, and was renamed Palestine only after the Roman’s crushed the Jewish Revolt in 70AD.

c) There were no Muslims in Israel until 638 AD

d) Israel has NEVER been abandoned by the Jewish people, it has had an uninterrupted Jewish population for over 3000 years.

e) Today’s so called Palestinians are in fact Jordanians.

If a group of murderers and thief’s break into your house and chase off half of your family, while trapping you into the bathroom and keep you there for hundreds of years, that does not make the house theirs. When you finally manage to take control of your house from them, you are not carving up their house.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

The Palestinians plan on using their new status to try to bring war crime charges against Israel at the ICC.

Lance Murdock on November 29, 2012 at 11:56 AM

They will be subject to the same charges. The Palistinians will be very surprised when they discover that their new status come with some responsibility.

They will render the ICC a laughingstock.

Jabberwock on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

I had no idea the Czech Republic bordered the Baltic Sea.

SnowSun on November 29, 2012 at 12:13 PM

If this dispute was about a fictional land maybe everyone would be better off. The trouble is its about a real land with real people.
Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 11:51 AM

Not quite. It’s about real people using a fictional identity to clain another real people’s real land.

tommyboy on November 29, 2012 at 12:13 PM

a Palestinian state has nothing to do with Hitler.

bobs1196 on November 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Except for the fact that the “start” of the modern Palestinian movement can be traced directly to Amin el-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who initiated the very first intifada in the 30′s.

His connection to Hitler is very well documented.

coldwarrior on November 29, 2012 at 12:14 PM

Thank you, Canada!

Blake on November 29, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Likewise, where was the state of Israel in 1947? Yet even without a state entity, the Israeli people existed on the land, same as Palestinian people existed on the land. It wasn’t an empty stretch of desert that suddenly became populated.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Where was the state of Israel in 1929 when the Palestinian Arabs systematically killed the Palestinian Jews?

And where was the state of Israel when the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem proposed the idea of the “final solution” to Hitler? He is still a saint for the Palestinian Arabs.

Gelsomina on November 29, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Oh, please, UN, give them their statehood. That way, when the next rocket comes over the wall, Israel will be well within her internationally-recognized rights to obliterate those savages from the face of the Earth.

Odysseus on November 29, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Miss anything?

Bruno Strozek on November 29, 2012 at 11:42 AM

The simply fabulous political/fashion statement the Unisex Chequered Arab Arafat Shemagh Kafiyah Desert Style Scarf.
You wear one of these in the Bay area, and everyone knows just how committed to social justice you are. They don’t even have to talk to you and you don’t even have to speak…just strike the pose.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:19 PM

Likewise, where was the state of Israel in 1947? Yet even without a state entity, the Israeli people existed on the land, same as Palestinian people existed on the land. It wasn’t an empty stretch of desert that suddenly became populated.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Non sequitur.
Lame.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Israel doesn’t even recognize the ICC, like the US and uh…Sudan(!).

The Paleos can launch all kinds of bogus lawsuits. Big deal.

CorporatePiggy on November 29, 2012 at 12:22 PM

a Palestinian state has nothing to do with Hitler.

bobs1196 on November 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM

You’re wrong.

That said, they were offered a state numerous times.
They refused.
Decisions have consequences.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:23 PM

msupertas : “They still have lots of that stolen Jew loot to sell at those camel flea markets”.

Derogatory statements & bigotry is alive & well on hotair.

Belle on November 29, 2012 at 12:25 PM

a Palestinian state has nothing to do with Hitler.

bobs1196 on November 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Somebody needs to read actual history, not the leftist revisionary pamphlets.

98ZJUSMC on November 29, 2012 at 12:27 PM

The argument sounds completely retarded to anyone who actually know the modern history of the region. The term “Palestinians”, as applied to Arab refugees of 1949 and 1969 wars, was coined by Soviet propaganda in the seventies. Previously, the term was actually synonymic to “Jews”. Do some reading before you post here; start with the Progressipedia, otherwise known as “wiki”.

Archivarix on November 29, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Thank you for your response. It is certainly true that a “national identity” as such did not exist as such, as was the case in many formerly Ottoman territories. When the region was partitioned, sometimes disparate groups were lumped together, such as in Iraq, where even today there is a struggle for a cohesive “national identity.”

However, that doesn’t mean there weren’t people living in Iraq before the state of Iraq was made. Likewise in the former mandate of “Palestine,” there were certainly people. A great many were Palestinian Arabs – Muslims – while also there were people we would say are Israelis today.

1) Islam is not a race you imbecile, genocide only refers to the elimination of a specific ethnic group.
SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

According to the definition I have on hand, genocide refers to “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.”

c) There were no Muslims in Israel until 638 AD
SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

There were no Muslims anywhere until 622, when it was founded. After that point, it was spread throughout the region, including into the land regarded as Palestine.

d) Israel has NEVER been abandoned by the Jewish people, it has had an uninterrupted Jewish population for over 3000 years.
SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

I don’t dispute this at all.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Non sequitur.
Lame.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Don’t be to hard on him, the Fifth Column Treasonous Media has been raping him 9 ways from Sunday indoctrinating him his entire life, it really isn’t his fault he doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:28 PM

Derogatory statements & bigotry is alive & well on hotair.

Belle on November 29, 2012 at 12:25 PM

How intolerant of you.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:32 PM

After that point, it was spread throughout the region, including into the land regarded as Palestine.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:27 PM

At the point of the sword, by murder, torture, intimidation and warfare. it deserves the same fate as the Cult of Kali, aka the Thugee’s. Islam has given the world NOTHING but death, violence and oppression of the worst and most heinous nature. Obliterating Islam would not be an act of Genocide, but a act of self preservation, aka Self defense.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:33 PM

1) Islam is not a race you imbecile, genocide only refers to the elimination of a specific ethnic group.

Thieves always claim that which the steal belongs to them.

a) Their has never been Palestinian People, they are a Fictional people created by the Black September Terrorist Organization as a pseudo justification to carry out the ambitions of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

b) There has never been a Nation of Palestine, it was the Nation of Israel, and was renamed Palestine only after the Roman’s crushed the Jewish Revolt in 70AD.

c) There were no Muslims in Israel until 638 AD

d) Israel has NEVER been abandoned by the Jewish people, it has had an uninterrupted Jewish population for over 3000 years.

e) Today’s so called Palestinians are in fact Jordanians.

If a group of murderers and thief’s break into your house and chase off half of your family, while trapping you into the bathroom and keep you there for hundreds of years, that does not make the house theirs. When you finally manage to take control of your house from them, you are not carving up their house.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Thank you, SWalker.

Saved me the trouble for the upteenth time.

98ZJUSMC on November 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM

May be the the best thing that could happen. Palestinians will feel emboldened and start to push a little harder on Israel; at which point they will initiate another war, get completely inihilated and we can finally be done with them.

Tater Salad on November 29, 2012 at 12:36 PM

It is certainly true that a “national identity” as such did not exist as such, as was the case in many formerly Ottoman territories. When the region was partitioned, sometimes disparate groups were lumped together, such as in Iraq, where even today there is a struggle for a cohesive “national identity.” Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Thats a bit of a spin.
No matter how the names and borders may have changed, the fact remains that there were existing cities, distinct cultures, languages, governing structures, language, writings etc.

Can you point out some of these in regards to the “Palestinian” culture and people? What were some of the distinctive characteristics of them?

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:38 PM

Yep…you guys kill me at this site.

All of this is good news. Rip the fcking band-aid off. Let the wars come. It is time for the world to suffer again to get some adult perspective. It is the only way politics turns around. Mewling about the GOP has been a waste of time for over a decade.

ClassicCon on November 29, 2012 at 12:39 PM

ClassicCon on November 29, 2012 at 12:39 PM

Wrong thread? :)

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:40 PM

Great, now we’ll have flying shoes and fist fights at the UN.

Evolving.

NapaConservative on November 29, 2012 at 12:40 PM

Derogatory statements & bigotry is alive & well on hotair.

Belle on November 29, 2012 at 12:25 PM

Wow, my condolences, I do not believe they make a Tuck’s Medicated Pad strong enough to ease the burning sensation your pooper chute is giving you.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Derogatory statements & bigotry is alive & well on hotair.
Belle on November 29, 2012 at 12:25 PM

That’s no big deal because these days anything anyone else disagrees with is considered “bigotry”.

tommyboy on November 29, 2012 at 12:42 PM

start a war, lose the war, and then ask that we recognize the borders prewar. these people are delusional.

burserker on November 29, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Great, now we’ll have flying shoes and fist fights at the UN.

Evolving.

NapaConservative on November 29, 2012 at 12:40 PM

A hundred monkeys locked in a room with a hundred typewriters, will still produce nothing but gibberish and crap all over the typewriters.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Sherman1864 Says:
November 29th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
Israel needs to take care of itself by itself: had a chance to do that the other day and backed down.
Palestine as a “state” is just another fiction.
The UN is a bunch of crap.
Our government is a bunch of crap.
Things are plain crappy.
Smacking my bobble head Obama around is pretty fun tho’.

Sherman1864 on November 29, 2012 at 12:43 PM

There are no such people as Palestinians.

There are only displaced Jordanians and Egyptians.

And, if they start using lawfare, then I urge Israel to use their neutron bombs and sterilize Gaza.

UODuckMan on November 29, 2012 at 12:44 PM

Look at the bright side…

Does this mean Canada at last has independence from Britain?

William Eaton on November 29, 2012 at 12:44 PM

You’re correct, I shouldn’t have generalized.
That statement just rubbed me the wrong way.

Belle on November 29, 2012 at 12:45 PM

Until now, the Western position had been that the borders had to be drawn as part of an agreement between Israel and the Palestinian Authority in a two-state settlement.

Stop with the silly BS. I can’t stand people who propagate this absolutely insane lie about a “two state solution”. At the very least, this is about a three-state solution, as Gaza and the West Bank will never be one state. They are different people who don’t particularly like each other. Those two territories were always separate (with Jordan having taken the West bank in 1948 and Egypt having taken Gaza in 1948, and both losing them in 1967).

Further, fakestinians can never have the West Bank as a state. Period. Too much of an existential threat to Israel in too many different ways. They just can’t have that and will eventually have to leave the West Bank for arab countries or Gaza (at least, until Gaza makes itself enough of an existential threat that those arabs have to be flushed into Sinai and finally driven to Egypt).

Right now there is a two-state solution – Jordan is the Fakestinian state and Israel is the Jewish state (though Israel stupidly took enough arabs as citizens to make up over 20% of the population). The territories cannot become more arab states – as if the arabs need more states. At this point, I would consider letting them have Gaza (though I never would have wirthdrawn unilaterally from Gaza without having gotten something very serious from the arabs – as you CANNOT just give sh@t to arabs without getting anything in return; that just whets the arab appetite for war) but that’s it. They cannot have the West Bank. Period. End of story.

As to Europe, the American Socialist Superstate under the Indonesian and the leftist junta, Russia, and the UN … screw them. They have no business sticking their noses into any of this. israel is going to need to make some very serious decisions very soon. This joke has gone way too far and something devastating is about to happen, one way or the other.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 29, 2012 at 12:46 PM

At the point of the sword, by murder, torture, intimidation and warfare. it deserves the same fate as the Cult of Kali, aka the Thugee’s. Islam has given the world NOTHING but death, violence and oppression of the worst and most heinous nature. Obliterating Islam would not be an act of Genocide, but a act of self preservation, aka Self defense.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 12:33 PM

You are advocating killing 1.8 billion people. Not all Muslims are violent radicals – but this undoubtedly is advocating radical violence which would obliterate roughly a quarter of the worlds population.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:48 PM

Send in the blue helmets! All will be well.

John the Libertarian on November 29, 2012 at 12:50 PM

WE didn’t lose Europe, the incompetent boob in the WH and his incompetent UN ambassador lost it……. too much to expect that people will come to their senses.

ultracon on November 29, 2012 at 12:56 PM

Israel has one great comfort in all this…the UN is a joke for its history of being able to enforce things is comical.

No country is going to risk the lives of their troops to send them to the West Bank to enforce or protect anything. This is just pandering by certain countries over Arab oil and Russia just being Russia.

William Eaton on November 29, 2012 at 12:57 PM

Not all Muslims are violent radicals – but this undoubtedly is advocating radical violence which would obliterate roughly a quarter of the worlds population.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:48 PM

If you honestly believe that, then you have never read the Quran. Your willful self inflicted stupidity is astounding.

1) Read the damned Qur’an.
2) Learn what Islamic Abrogation means.

There are NO peaceful Muslim, there are only those who have not yet engaged in violent Jihad for tactical or strategic reasons. Islam literally translates to submission and the bedrock foundation of Islamic theological and ideological doctrine is that EVERY SINGLE Muslim MUST engage in the Holy Jihad to bring the ENTIRE would into submission to Islam.

This is NOT something that can be negotiated. Islamic theological ideological doctrine CANNOT be changed. You cannot treat cancer by putting a cast on your ankle nor can you treat obesity by increasing your caloric intake.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 1:03 PM

You are advocating killing 1.8 billion people. Not all Muslims are violent radicals – but this undoubtedly is advocating radical violence which would obliterate roughly a quarter of the worlds population.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:48 PM

Not really..political Islam is an ideology, not a population of people nor an ethnicity.
Being rid of it would benefit humanity.
Don’t you agree?

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 1:06 PM

but this undoubtedly is advocating radical violence which would obliterate roughly a quarter of the worlds population.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 12:48 PM

No, what I am advocating is that we accept the incontrovertible reality of the world. This is where were are.

The Three Conjectures:

Conjecture 2: Attaining WMDs will destroy Islam

This fixity of malice was recognized in President Bush’s West Point address in the summer of 2002, when he concluded that “deterrence — the promise of massive retaliation against nations — means nothing against shadowy terrorist networks with no nation or citizens to defend.” The enemy was equally indifferent to inducement or threat. Neither making nice — Jimmy Carter’s withdrawal from Iran, Reagan’s abandonment of Lebanon, Bush’s defense of Saudi Arabia, Clinton’s rescue of Albanian Muslims from Serbian genocide, the payment of billions in aid to Egypt and Pakistan — nor the gravest of threats would alter the enemy’s intent to utterly destroy and enslave America. Allah had condemned America. The Faithful only had to find the means to carry out the execution.

Because capability is the sole variable of interest in the war against terrorism, the greater the Islamic strike capability becomes, the stronger the response will be. An unrepeatable attack with a stolen WMD weapon would elicit a different response from one arising from a capability to strike on a sustained and repetitive basis. The riposte to an unrepeatable attack would be limited. However, suppose Pakistan or North Korea engineered a reliable plutonium weapon that could be built to one-point safety in any machine shop with a minimum of skill, giving Islamic terrorists the means to repeatedly attack America indefinitely. Under these circumstances, there would no incentive to retaliate proportionately. The WMD exchange would escalate uncontrollably until Islam was destroyed.

Consider a case where Islamic terrorists obliterate a city, causing five times the deaths at Hiroshima and an American limited response.
Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 - 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
Total - 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6

In a war between nations, the conflict might stop at this point. But since there is no one with whom to negotiate a peace and no inclination to stop anyhow, the Islamic terrorists will continue while they have the capability and the cycle of destruction continues.
Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 - 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
2 - 1 x 10^6 -5 x 10^6
3 - 5 x 10^6 -1.5 x 10^7
4 - 8 x 10^6 -3.0 x 10^7
5 - 1.5 x 10^7 -5.0 x 10^7
Total - 2.95 x 10^7 -10.2 x 10^7

At this point, a United States choked with corpses could still not negotiate an end to hostilities or deter further attacks. There would be no one to call on the Red Telephone, even to surrender to. In fact, there exists no competent Islamic authority, no supreme imam who could stop a jihad on behalf of the whole Muslim world. Even if the terror chiefs could somehow be contacted in this apocalyptic scenario and persuaded to bury the hatchet, the lack of command and control imposed by the cell structure would prevent them from reining in their minions. Due to the fixity of intent, attacks would continue for as long as capability remained. Under these circumstances, any American government would eventually be compelled by public desperation to finish the exchange by entering -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column: total retaliatory extermination.
Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 - 5 x 10^5 -2 x 10^6
2 - 1 x 10^6 -5 x 10^6
3 - 5 x 10^6 -1.5 x 10^7
4 - 8 x 10^6 -3.0 x 10^7
5 - 1.5 x 10^7 -5.0 x 10^7
6 0 -8.93 x 10^8
Total - 2.95 x 10^7 -1 x 10^9

The so-called strengths of Islamic terrorism: fanatical intent; lack of a centralized leadership; absence of a final authority and cellular structure guarantee uncontrollable escalation once the nuclear threshold is crossed. Therefore the ‘rational’ American response to the initiation of terrorist WMD attack would be all out retaliation from the outset.
Iteration Non-Islamic Losses Islamic Losses
1 - 5 x 10^5 -1 x 10^9
Total - 5 x 10^5 -1 x 10^9

James Lileks and the Pew respondents would not lose America; but like the boogeyman in Seven, Islam would take it’s soul. The most startling result of this analysis is that a catastrophic outcome for Islam is guaranteed whether America retaliates or not. Even if the President decided to let all Americans die to expiate their historical guilt, why would Islamic terrorists stop after that? They would move on to Europe and Asia until finally China, Russia, Japan, India or Israel, none of them squeamish, wrote -1 x 10^9 in the final right hand column. They too would be prisoners of the same dynamic, and they too have weapons of mass destruction.

Even if Islam killed every non-Muslim on earth they would almost certainly continue to kill each other with their new-found weaponry. Revenge bombings between rival groups and wars between different Islamic factions are the recurring theme of history. Long before 3,000 New Yorkers died on September 11, Iraq and Iran killed 500,000 Muslims between them. The greatest threat to Muslims is radical Islam; and the greatest threat of all is a radical Islam armed with weapons of mass destruction.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 1:08 PM

Wow, this really stings. I just can’t believe that the Germans would try to harm the Jews this way. Seriously; where’s that coming from?

morganfrost on November 29, 2012 at 1:10 PM

morganfrost on November 29, 2012 at 1:10 PM

Heh.

Mimzey on November 29, 2012 at 1:16 PM

Could this Jew request that we leave “Final Solution,” “Nazi,” etc. out of the discussion?

Just as Susan Rice’s qualifications to be Secretary of State have nothing to do with slavery, a Palestinian state has nothing to do with Hitler.

bobs1196 on November 29, 2012 at 12:08 PM

This history teacher who lived in Israel begs to differ.

ChicagoJewishGuy on November 29, 2012 at 1:25 PM

Its funny that you think Hot Air readers don’t know this, and it’s even funnier that you think it supports the nebulous point you were attempting to make.

blink on November 29, 2012 at 12:44 PM

If it is conceded that Palestinians lived in the “Palestinian territories,” have generations of ties to the region, what ultimately is being argued then by calling them a fake people? National identities do not have to be ancient to be legitimate. People in the 13 colonies regarded themselves as British subjects – yet noone today can argue there is not an American national identity.

There is a Palestinian identity now, held by people whose ties to the land span back for a very long time.

If you honestly believe that, then you have never read the Quran. Your willful self inflicted stupidity is astounding.

1) Read the damned Qur’an.
2) Learn what Islamic Abrogation means.

There are NO peaceful Muslim, there are only those who have not yet engaged in violent Jihad for tactical or strategic reasons.

SWalker on November 29, 2012 at 1:03 PM

You are arguing that every single Muslim should be killed because they are all just waiting to act violently. Something doesn’t add up here.

There are different branches of Islam, different sects, different interpretations, different groups. And different ideas. Just as your view that genocide of 1.8 billion people is legitimate, does not speak for every American or follower of your religion, the most radical interpreters of Islam do not speak for every Muslim.

Rangeley on November 29, 2012 at 1:26 PM

The UN should have been deligitimized (is that a word?) and kicked out of the country long, long, ago. Right now it’s a nest of communists, socialists, and America haters, living in our country, coveting our heritage, and blatantly violating our laws and Constitution. And YOUR tax dollars are supporting it…..

ultracon on November 29, 2012 at 1:27 PM

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