Fiscal cliff divers?

posted at 9:41 am on November 26, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Can Congress and the White House come to an agreement to avoid the fiscal cliff?  Do some Democrats prefer to go over it first?  Politico reports that members of Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill are taking an all-or-nothing approach to the negotiations, following the rhetoric of Barack Obama in insisting that tax rates have to go up or there won’t be a deal before the end of the year:

A growing bloc of emboldened liberals say they’re not afraid to watch defense spending get gouged and taxes go up on every American if a budget deal doesn’t satisfy their priorities. …

Bolstering the Democrats’ strategy is the belief that the “fiscal cliff” is actually shaped more like a “slope” where the economic effects will be felt gradually, not immediately. That theory gives Congress some time at the beginning of 2013 to set tax rates and configure budget cuts in a different political environment and with a new class of lawmakers.

But underlying the tough talk is also a sense of liberal angst — the left feels like it was burned by the last extension of the Bush tax rates and didn’t get much of what it wanted in the 2011 debt-limit deal.

If tax rates snap back to the higher levels from the 1990s and painful budget cuts start to hit the Pentagon, these Democrats — led by Washington Sen. Patty Murray — believe they would wield more leverage over the GOP to enact a budget compromise on their terms. And with a January deal, Republicans would technically avoid violating the no-new-taxes pledge that most of them have signed because they would then be voting to cut taxes.

Unfortunately for Murray and the Democrats, the White House released a report today that undermines their “slope” argument.  Via TPM, the report concludes that just the middle-class tax hikes alone could cut consumer spending by $200 billion in 2013, a drop of 1.7% that would provide a huge push into recession:

Allowing the middle-class tax rates to rise and failing to patch the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) could cut the growth of real consumer spending by 1.7 percentage points in 2013.  This sharp rise in middle-class taxes and the resulting decline in consumption could slow the growth of real GDP by 1.4 percentage points, which is consistent with recently published estimates from the Congressional Budget Office.

Faced with these tax hikes, the CEA estimates that consumers could spend nearly $200 billion less than they otherwise would have in 2013 just because of higher taxes.  This reduction of $200 billion is approximately four times the total amount that 226 million shoppers spent on Black Friday weekend last year.  As Figure 5 shows, this $200 billion reduction would likely be spread across all areas of consumer spending.

That shows the stakes involved in this particular cliff dive.  If those rates hit at the beginning of the year, they will act immediately to depress consumer spending, as families have to plan for a much larger tax bite and start sheltering cash.  That will result in layoffs and investment flight, starting a cycle of recession and perhaps worse if allowed to pick up steam.

Furthermore, it’s a little curious as to what Murray and her cliff divers think will improve after the tax rates jump.  It’s not as if the new Congress will have different leadership than this session, or a new President will take office.  All of the players will remain the same, as will their constituencies.  If anything, the impact of the tax rates will put the onus on the President to stop the damage, not House Republicans, who only control one lever of power in Washington to Democrats’ two.  Especially by going public with this strategy, Murray seems determined to have her fellow Democrats take most of the blame when the inevitable sudden stop occurs at the end of a cliff dive.

 


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I used to think Patty Murray was the dumbest woman alive. That was before the 2012 Senate elections. Now I consider her ONE OF the dumbest women alive.

steebo77 on November 26, 2012 at 9:45 AM

LIB

Odysseus on November 26, 2012 at 9:47 AM

No worries. Saxby Chambliss and Bob Corker will make sure we don’t go over the fiscal cliff by…voting to send us over another, slightly shorter cliff.

steebo77 on November 26, 2012 at 9:48 AM

Patty Murray was lauding the Taliban for building schools and hospitals. She did this in October 2001 and she ignored that the “schools” were really nothing more than terrorist training camps and the hospitals were to patch up wounded terrorists and get them back in the game. She truly is an unfit human being and why the stupid people of WA keep electing her to high public office is truly beyond my understanding. Hey you stupid liberals in Seattle and King County….. You don’t have to elect a conservative but could you at least elect somebody with an IQ higher than a box of rocks?

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 9:48 AM

The GOP will cave instead of just standing back, they will take the blame when everything falls apart, and then the real fun begins.

Come January 1st our spending in this house is going to make my frugal, depression-era grandparents look like big spending party animals.

Bishop on November 26, 2012 at 9:49 AM

Isn’t Patty Murray related to Milhouse Van Houten? /s

rhombus on November 26, 2012 at 9:49 AM

what’s that? I hear the faint tinkling of a can getting kicked down the road.

Slade73 on November 26, 2012 at 9:52 AM

All hail the blessed Lord and Saviour Baracka Hussein Obama the Great!!!

…..and his house slaves in the Senate and House.

PappyD61 on November 26, 2012 at 9:53 AM

The Democrats will continue to push for their pure Marxist State while the Republicans continue to cave to their demands. In the end, of these sorry, bastard Parties will be to blame for the destruction of our economy and our country. Ironically, it didn’t just happen this way, the moronic fools planned it this way.

rplat on November 26, 2012 at 9:54 AM

I think the House needs to stand strong. Tax increases should not be a de facto line in the sand but the filthy Democrats are going have to bargain for whatever deal is reached. The filthy Dems and the rat-eared wonder seem to think that they have all the leverage and like Grant at Appamattox, the allies at Versailles, or Nimitz on the deck of the USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay. They need to understand that compromise is something other than the GOP agreeing to whatever they want.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 9:54 AM

Murray seems determined to have her fellow Democrats take most of the blame when the inevitable sudden stop occurs at the end of a cliff dive.

I don’t know about that. The Democrats could bring this guy in to negotiate for them and the media will still blame the Republicans all day long.

forest on November 26, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Marshmallows? Check!

Fallon on November 26, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Let it go over the cliff. Let the fascist-Democrats own the resulting Depression.

rbj on November 26, 2012 at 9:56 AM

Despite all this, I’m afraid that most of the public will still blame Republicans for this. To wit, this is all because the Republicans won’t increase taxes on the rich. Everything else will be ignored.

This is why – in large part – the liberals are playing this game. They think they won’t be held responsible.

I think they’re right.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM

I don’t think it’ll come to that. I think enough Republicans will cave and they’ll extend the Bush tax cuts for everyone but the top 2%. As for the defense spending, it’ll probably get reinstated(well, most of it anyway). Which means more trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see. But at least now the Dems will completely own the economy since they can no longer complain(at least not with a straight face) that “the rich” aren’t paying their fair share.

Doughboy on November 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM

No, Democrats will not take most of the blame. Actually they won’t take any, and I’m surprised that anyone would think this. The Republicans somehow will be saddled with this, the media will do a major distortion job and millions of American idiots will buy it. As for Patty Murray, a woman of truly remarkable stupidity. Use her as your guide to the caliber of the Democrats in both Houses.

arand on November 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM

The Republicans should either agree to tax hikes WITH massive spending cuts or nothing at all.

darwin on November 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM

Come January 1st our spending in this house is going to make my frugal, depression-era grandparents look like big spending party animals.

Bishop on November 26, 2012 at 9:49 AM

Come January 1st, I think the “makers” need to refuse to feed the beast. Let the “takers” and their lord and savior figure out how to pay for all the free stuff without the active participation of the people expected to foot the bill for a bunch of worthless parasites.

In short, create a liquidity problem and put the government in default. Make it so the moochers don’t get their government checks on time, the foodstamps dry up, and otherwise they are forced to learn that sitting around chatting on their Obamaphones is an unacceptable lifestyle choice.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Not waiting to see of my taxes are going up in 40 days. I’m Done spending now, just in case. Our whole adult professional lives have taken place under the Bush tax rates, this will be a huge shock to our finances.

myrenovations on November 26, 2012 at 9:59 AM

The Republicans should either agree to tax hikes WITH massive spending cuts or nothing at all.

darwin on November 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM

Easiest way of getting there is to agree to cut out Obamacare. Cutting other entitlement programs don’t come close to making the inroads that getting rid of an unaffordable attempt to destroy healthcare and push the nation into single-payer bureaucracy.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:00 AM

I don’t know about that. The Democrats could bring this guy in to negotiate for them and the media will still blame the Republicans all day long.

forest on November 26, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Yup.

After starting with this:

A growing bloc of emboldened liberals say they’re not afraid to watch defense spending get gouged and taxes go up on every American if a budget deal doesn’t satisfy their priorities.

SEUNG MIN KIM, Politico, just a few paragraphs later in the same piece “reports”:

Republicans would most likely bear most of the public blame if policymakers deadlock. The Pew Research Center found that 53 percent of Americans would fault GOP lawmakers if Washington fails to avert the fiscal cliff; only 29 percent would point the finger at Obama.

*shaking my head*

Fallon on November 26, 2012 at 10:00 AM

I’m ready for them to go ver the cliff… Go ahead, Democrats: you’ll own this one…

Khun Joe on November 26, 2012 at 10:01 AM

If the Republican were smart they’d offer Clinton era spending levels for Clinton era taxes – but NOT as their first offer.

18-1 on November 26, 2012 at 10:02 AM

Unfortunately for Murray and the Democrats, the White House released a report today that undermines their “slope” argument. Via TPM, the report concludes that…

It’s a “report”, which means nothing, you can have all the stats, all the facts, all the proof, and put it into a report and it means nothing…but make an emotional appeal, now that is power!

The GOP will want to favor the wealthy, and destroy the middle class…that won’t go away because that is what the public believes and is told daily.

It’s not about spending, it’s about not bringing in enough money from the wealthy, who are sucking the money away, stealing the money away from all the rest of the people…that’s their story, they are sticking with it, and it is working.

It doesn’t matter what is fact, conservatives need to come up with a meme that appeals emotionally to the people.

And the only way to do that is to promote the theory that all the money going to Washington, is not flowing to the people but to the politics…and the problem with that is it also implicates Republican’s, so the only thing the Republican’s can do is, well is nothing much.

right2bright on November 26, 2012 at 10:02 AM

The Pew Research Center found that 53 percent of Americans would fault GOP lawmakers if Washington fails to avert the fiscal cliff; only 29 percent would point the finger at Obama.

Yep, that’s what the Murrays and other liberals see. Most of the public sees this solely as a tax increase on the rich issue. Everything else is a blur.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:03 AM

Somehow lost in all of this by libtards and squishy conserva-tards is that a tax increase on the top 1 or 2% will STILL stun this economy. Great, “middle class” is protected and gets to keep more of their money…oh… if they still had jobs that paid them.

Small business gets speared. Jobs are shed. Prices go up.

But hey, our magnanimous dictator tells us the best is yet to come. So, we have that going for us.

Sugar Land on November 26, 2012 at 10:03 AM

This “fiscal cliff” was brought about because our elected officials refused to do their Constitutionally mandated job.

Period.

Now, they all act as if this is something too big, too difficult, too unmanageable to deal with…and only “Our Lord and Saviour” can fix it, but he is too busy spending like Emperor Bokassa on a week-end in Paris to care one damn bit about it.

Yep.

That is the state of the Union, today, 26 November 2012.

Stuck on friggin’ stupid.

coldwarrior on November 26, 2012 at 10:04 AM

A growing bloc of emboldened liberals say they’re not afraid to watch defense spending get gouged and taxes go up on every American if a budget deal doesn’t satisfy their priorities.

They won. LIB.

chemman on November 26, 2012 at 10:04 AM

If we go over the fiscal cliff and the economy falls into another recession the Republicans will be blamed for not raising taxes on the rich.

That – and that alone – will be how it’s seen.

They have a very weak hand right now.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:05 AM

Murray seems determined to have her fellow Democrats take most of the blame when the inevitable sudden stop occurs at the end of a cliff dive.

Not to worry. The MSM will make sure the Republicans get the blame.

GarandFan on November 26, 2012 at 10:05 AM

No, Democrats will not take most of the blame. Actually they won’t take any, and I’m surprised that anyone would think this. The Republicans somehow will be saddled with this, the media will do a major distortion job and millions of American idiots will buy it.

arand on November 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM

Even with the Democrat/media complex doing a full court press against the GOP, how will Obama escape any blame if he gets his precious tax hikes and the economy still stinks(which it obviously will)? He can no longer blame the Bush tax cuts for the deficit. He can’t point the finger at obstructionist Republicans in the House. And any talk of what he “inherited” is gonna sound pathetic even to his supporters as he enters his second term in office.

Tax hikes are coming regardless. Let’s just give the Dems what they claimed they wanted(a return to Clinton-era rates for the top 2%) and make them own the results.

Doughboy on November 26, 2012 at 10:07 AM

Let the tax cuts expire.

Let sequestration happen.

Let the debt hit the statutory ceiling.

Then, begin negotiations… from a starting point of a de facto balanced budget.

JohnGalt23 on November 26, 2012 at 10:08 AM

The GOP will cave instead of just standing back, they will take the blame when everything falls apart, and then the real fun begins.

Come January 1st our spending in this house is going to make my frugal, depression-era grandparents look like big spending party animals.

Bishop on November 26, 2012 at 9:49 AM

The GOP will get the blame no matter what, so why not give Teh Won what he wants?

Ward Cleaver on November 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM

The so called rich won’t lose much with a tax hike.The rich aren’t stupid.They have the CPA’s and lawyers that know all of the tricks on dodging taxes.The repubs need to jump out front on this tax increase and take the heat off.Let’s play the game to win.

docflash on November 26, 2012 at 10:10 AM

They have a very weak hand right now.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:05 AM

What utter BS. They have control of the House.

It all depends on how the GOP goes about framing their position. For too long the rat-eared bastard and his filthy party has been “arguing and getting in people’s face” to make it all about raising taxes on the rich so the parasites of the Democrat party feel no pain as the cliff looms. Well the GOP needs to spell out that there needs to be fair share approach which means cutting the entitlement progams for the worthless parasites who don’t pay anything in income taxes and yet take and take from the system.

I say everybody should be expected to pay into the solution and not just the rich.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Ed, you are kidding yourself if you think the GOP will not be blamed by falling off the cliff. It is very simple: if something goes well, its because of Obama and the Democrats; if something goes badly, it is the evil GOP.

The Democrats know this and there is nothing the GOP can do until it successfully engages within the culture on these issues. Good luck with that.

RedSoxNation on November 26, 2012 at 10:11 AM

you know who crossed my mind while I was in the shower this morning? Mr. “If the president and the Democrats don’t get the message from Massachusetts, it will be their Waterloo,” he said.

The last 4 yrs have been quite entertaining….looking forward to the next 4.

Can.I.be.in.the.middle on November 26, 2012 at 10:12 AM

What utter BS. They have control of the House.

Weak hand in how the public views the matter. Check the polls on how the public views this issue.

And I’ll add that if they use your language – parasites et cetera – they’ll get slaughtered.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:12 AM

The GOP will get the blame no matter what, so why not give Teh Won what he wants?

Ward Cleaver

I agree. It is very dishartening…

RedSoxNation on November 26, 2012 at 10:12 AM

The GOP will get the blame no matter what, so why not give Teh Won what he wants?

Ward Cleaver on November 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM

If the GOP will get the blame, then let’s go over the fiscal cliff and see just how the rat-eared wonder and his filthy party “fix” the enconomy in light of draconian cuts. Let’s see the people subsisting on entitlement programs find the government checks stop. Let’s see all those defense workers suddenly out of work. Let’s see just how super-smart Indonesian-raised Kenyan Muslims are at fixing American problems.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:13 AM

Every sane person should support Cliff Diving no matter who promotes or “benefits” from it. This could be a first, small step in the direction of a complete default and re-set of the economy, without which the ultimate crash will be far worse. Time to at least think about taking our medicine. And I say that understanding that the Republicans will be “blamed” for whatever happens – but that is inevitable in any case. I have reluctantly supported R’s in the past, including this last election, but since they are going to either cave completely or, worse, continue in the can kicking, screw them.

Hucklebuck on November 26, 2012 at 10:14 AM

And I’ll add that if they use your language – parasites et cetera – they’ll get slaughtered.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:12 AM

I’m not a politician. But that doesn’t mean that Obama supporters are anything other than dirty, filthy, worthless parasites with no redeeming value in society.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:15 AM

20 years ago, members of Congress signed the following pledge from the Americans for Tax Reform:I, _______________, pledge to the taxpayers of the _____ district of the state of__________, and to the American people that I will:

ONE, oppose any and all efforts to increase the marginal income tax rates for individuals and/or businesses; and

TWO, oppose any net reduction or elimination of deductions and credits, unless matched dollar for dollar by further reducing tax rates.

Evidently, Obama’s promises aren’t the only ones that come with expiration dates.

kingsjester on November 26, 2012 at 10:15 AM

Seriously, just disband Congress and give our Jesus all the power he needs to work his transformation on us……it’s going to be YUMMY.

All hail the new Christ of America!!

Transform us OJesus!!!

PappyD61 on November 26, 2012 at 10:16 AM

The GOP will get the blame no matter what, so why not give Teh Won what he wants?

Ward Cleaver on November 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM

That’s why the GOP needs to stand back, don’t cast votes, don’t agree, don’t reach across the aisle, vote present and let the ‘rats own it. At least people like me would still support the GOP if they did this, I won’t give them a single thin dime if they go along with the leftist trash and drag me and mine over the cliff.

Bishop on November 26, 2012 at 10:17 AM

Every sane person should support Cliff Diving no matter who promotes or “benefits” from it.

Sorry, if the public views the Republicans as the cause of this they’ll get killed in the next Congressional elections.

Then the Democrats will control both ends of Pennyslvania Ave.

And what do you think THEY will do?

There’s a time to pick your fight. This isn’t one of them.

If the economy implodes which party will benefit? If the public needs government help – unemployment coverage, health care, food stamps – because the economy stinks, the party of government will win out.

I don’t need to tell you which party that is.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:18 AM

I’m a big believer in “elections have consequences” and “you get the government you vote for”. While it would be painful for a lot of people to go through this, I think it is necessary to clarify the minds of voters as to what it is they voted for, exactly.

In today’s society, we’ve voted for way to many government lollipops and, in fits of moral negligence, we’ve also voted to have our children and grandchildren pay for those lollipops. It won’t stop until the “drunk” sees the destruction caused by his disease…time to go for a dive folks….

powerpickle on November 26, 2012 at 10:20 AM

Ed, you are kidding yourself if you think the GOP will not be blamed by falling off the cliff. It is very simple: if something goes well, its because of Obama and the Democrats; if something goes badly, it is the evil GOP.

The Democrats know this and there is nothing the GOP can do until it successfully engages within the culture on these issues. Good luck with that.

RedSoxNation on November 26, 2012 at 10:11 AM

That’s why the GOP needs to give Obama the tax hikes. Politics is perception. And the perception in our culture right now is that the GOP is the party of the rich, the Bush tax cuts were solely for the rich(yes, people really believe that crap), the deficit is a result of the tax cuts, and the House Republicans refuse to negotiate with the magnanimous, bipartisan Democrats.

So eliminate all of these BS narratives with one fell swoop. Obama gets his tax hikes, the GOP proves they’re willing to negotiate, the rich go back to paying “their fair share”, and the deficit and weak economy can no longer be blamed on a 35% tax rate that no longer exists.

Doughboy on November 26, 2012 at 10:20 AM

We all know how this particular story will end…the GOP will cave on tax hikes for the rich, whatever spending cuts are involved will be meaningless and rolled back, the can will be kicked down the road once more.

It’s absolutely infuriating, though, for the GOP to be telegraphing their changing stance via a media that deplores them and, in the process, buying into the class warfare and revenue problem narratives. You just spent months telling voters why these hikes will be bad, so why turn around and just agree to them? Why let the Dems know publicly, so they can in turn drive a harder and harder bargain? Why cede control of the House and neuter yourself in these negotiations? Tell em no…let Obama do his job for once and offer proposals. If spending isn’t cut enough, refuse the deal and let the chips fall where they may. If that means going over the cliff, fine…at least everyone will be shouldering more of the tax burden and we may get meaningful cuts.

changer1701 on November 26, 2012 at 10:21 AM

Checking out HuffPo yesterday, their big screaming headline was about the coming Climate Change Cliff. Then they had a featured columnist on the sidebar denying that there’s no problem with the debt and deficit, and if there is a problem, it’s all because of Bush’s tax cuts/wars.

These are the people who are running our country. We are in the very best of hands.

juliesa on November 26, 2012 at 10:22 AM

How can anyone expect to return to a position of fiscal sanity when a majority of citizens are social parasites and are unwilling to give up any of their gifts or subsidies. Let’s face it, governing in this poor sick Republic is similar to maintaining a kennel . . . as long as you feed the animals they will be placid and obey your will. This is hopeless.

rplat on November 26, 2012 at 10:25 AM

OY just OY

We are in so much trouble and the scary part is many of the 47% have no clue how much trouble we are in.

gophergirl on November 26, 2012 at 10:25 AM

If the economy implodes which party will benefit? If the public needs government help – unemployment coverage, health care, food stamps – because the economy stinks, the party of government will win out.

I don’t need to tell you which party that is.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:18 AM

You’re right….until the money runs out. When those checks are no longer coming(or are drastically reduced), enthusiasm amongst Democrat voters is not likely to remain high for very long.

Doughboy on November 26, 2012 at 10:28 AM

A growing bloc of emboldened liberals say they’re not afraid to watch defense spending get gouged and taxes go up on every American if a budget deal doesn’t satisfy their priorities.

Classic “Stage One Thinking” as Thomas Sowell has defined it.

“Evasion is the root of all evil.”

– Ayn Rand

ShainS on November 26, 2012 at 10:29 AM

If this is the deal Boehner cut and Democrats prefer abiding by it more than Republicans, then it’s another Boehner boner.

Buddahpundit on November 26, 2012 at 10:30 AM

Yep, that’s what the Murrays and other liberals see. Most of the public sees this solely as a tax increase on the rich issue. Everything else is a blur.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:03 AM

This is what the “let it all burn” crowd don’t get. The election proved that no failure on their part will be placed on the Democrats. The masses will hear 9 talking heads/guests repeat the talking point that the GOP stood strong for the highest wage earners keeping their tax cut and it won’t matter that the DNC’s unwillingness to give that up either caused everyone’s taxes to go up!!! The one GOP voice can explain it until they’re blue in the face and it won’t change anything. We don’t control the messaging. The appearance of a pillar of objectivity doesn’t exist at all anymore. The MSM has successfully dumbed people down to soundbites, talking points and spin. We’ve lost and there is little hope for future success when a President as inept as any who have ever held the office can get re-elected in this climate.

I have a bright, almost 21 year old daughter that is a college student that can’t even get hired as a cashier at a gas station because they have over 200 applicants for the job. This isn’t a brand new store either. It’s been opened for 50 years. 200 applicants for a barely above minimum wage job that offers no benefits and isn’t even full time.

rmel80 on November 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM

America has re-elected Obama and the House leadership should say that they heard this message from the electorate. They should say that the United States is already in the “fortunate” position of higher tax rates without further legislation – the expiration of the Bush tax cuts. They should emphasize that the President gets his wish without any further bills needing to be past by Congress.

The electorate must understand that we re-elected this idiot and we are responsible for our decisions. Those who suddenly find themselves folded in to the tax paying sector of the population or paying higher taxes need to have this experience that their adulation of this Marxist comes at a cost. Maybe they will pay more attention during the next election because of what they will pay after January.

DaveDief on November 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM

No worries they’ll find a way to blame the gop…

cmsinaz on November 26, 2012 at 10:34 AM

You’re right….until the money runs out. When those checks are no longer coming(or are drastically reduced), enthusiasm amongst Democrat voters is not likely to remain high for very long.

Doughboy on November 26, 2012 at 10:28 AM

The rat-eared wonder and his filthy party will find an awful lot less support when the “free stuff” dries up. And make no mistake, just raising taxes on the rich does not do one thing to change the fundamentals of what is wrong with the economic situation. It’s a math problem.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM

America has re-elected Obama and the House leadership should say that they heard this message from the electorate.

DaveDief on November 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM

America just re-elected the GOP to a majority in the House. Let’s not forget that this too is a consequence of the election. There is too much emphasis on this bogus idea that the GOP has to be nice to the rat-eared wonder because he just won an election. Well the House is part of a co-equal branch of government. Let the rat-eared wonder and the parasites who support him figure something out if we are to avoid the fiscal cliff.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:38 AM

I don’t know, it’s concerning to think how “clarity” will define itself in those 47%’ers when the checks stop coming.

Demorats and libs will start pointing fingers and you know they will be pointing at, you and me. I watched people trample one another for cheap cell phones on Black Friday, what would they be willing to do when their free stuff stops and their enablers are screaming “Your employed neighbor is at fault!”

Bishop on November 26, 2012 at 10:39 AM

No worries they’ll find a way to blame the gop…

cmsinaz on November 26, 2012 at 10:34 AM

…because that is the goal.

rmel80 on November 26, 2012 at 10:41 AM

These are the people who are running our country. We are in the very best of hands.

juliesa on November 26, 2012 at 10:22 AM

yep. Let’s not let this crisis go to waste. I say let the events play out on their terms. Doesn’t matter who gets the blame when the predicted results that we see blossoming all over the globe are occuring. Those that can will find a way. Those that can’t will suffer.

My hunch is that in about six months many of our favorite restaurants and stores will be closed.

DanMan on November 26, 2012 at 10:42 AM

rmel80 on November 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM

You’re absolutely right. Problem is, the GOP will be blamed either way…agreeing to a deal will give bipartisan cover for those tax hikes while ceding the revenue and “fair share” argument to the Dems. ‘See, even the Republicans think the “rich” aren’t paying enough.’ And, when the expected revenues fall short of estimates and the Dems come back for more, on what leg will the GOP have to stand on?

America has re-elected Obama and the House leadership should say that they heard this message from the electorate. They should say that the United States is already in the “fortunate” position of higher tax rates without further legislation – the expiration of the Bush tax cuts. They should emphasize that the President gets his wish without any further bills needing to be past by Congress.

The electorate must understand that we re-elected this idiot and we are responsible for our decisions. Those who suddenly find themselves folded in to the tax paying sector of the population or paying higher taxes need to have this experience that their adulation of this Marxist comes at a cost. Maybe they will pay more attention during the next election because of what they will pay after January.

DaveDief on November 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM

I absolutely agree with this. Well said.

changer1701 on November 26, 2012 at 10:42 AM

Last election cycle, I took a “friend” (a very liberal college prof) to dinner at one of the best restaurants in town. Excellent dinner. [Off to the side, I told the waiter to bring separate checks.] At the end of dinner and desert, and a nice glass of wine or two, the checks arrived. I paid for mine, plus tip. The prof, who has not returned any phone calls since, was stuck with a rather huge dinner tab…his own. He was furious. Said I was deceitful. He expected that I should pay for his dinner, since I had invited him.

I told him, I am a tax payer, and a conservative. I pay my own way. I spend my money as I see fit. I really do not like having to pay for others, just because others demand it.

This is what the liberal/progressives have done to the United States over the past decades. They have inculcated the idea that our money is their money. That we should be required to pay for everybody’s dinners…since we have money.

This time around, with this fiscal cliff thing, let’s stiff them with the check.

I am tired of being expected to pay for somebody else’s dinner all the time.

coldwarrior on November 26, 2012 at 10:43 AM

The rat-eared wonder and his filthy party will find an awful lot less support when the “free stuff” dries up. And make no mistake, just raising taxes on the rich does not do one thing to change the fundamentals of what is wrong with the economic situation. It’s a math problem.

Happy Nomad on November 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM

That’s the idea. The reason(well, one of the reasons anyway) that Obama won reelection was that he successfully suckered enough voters into believing that he was looking out for the middle class and that evil rich Mitt Romney and his Wall Street cronies and obstructionist Republicans in Congress were gonna look out for only the upper income bracket. And what has been the biggest weapon in establishing that narrative(aside from blatant lies and falsehoods)? The Bush tax cuts. For God’s sake, even the name alone is electoral poison.

If we’re going to start to fight this brainwashing the Democrat/media complex has done to a majority of the country, we have to eliminate these talking points. We cannot allow Obama and the Dems to win national elections merely on a platform of soaking the rich. Call their bluff, get rid of the Bush tax cuts as a weapon of theirs once and for all, and make them own this economy 100%.

Doughboy on November 26, 2012 at 10:43 AM

Via TPM, the report concludes that just the middle-class tax hikes alone could cut consumer spending by $200 billion in 2013, a drop of 1.7% that would provide a huge push into recession.

But..but…but…but.. The Commie Left insists that tax cuts and De-regulation caused the recession – so shouldn’t all these new wonderful regulations and taxes boost the economy into the stratosphere?

Galt2009 on November 26, 2012 at 10:45 AM

Let everything go over the cliff. The Democrats will get their tax increase and Defense budget cuts they want. However, what power will that leave them? They have told us that increasing taxes are a “balanced plan”, so we won’t need to increase the debt limit. We also don’t have a budget for this year, so the GOP can shut down the government (or call for a balanced budget amendment) if it doesn’t get the entitlement programs fixed.
Please, we need to understand what leverage the GOP has and how they can use it to their benefit.

djaymick on November 26, 2012 at 10:50 AM

Again (sorry to sound repetitive): If the economy falls off the cliff because of this, the Republicans will be blamed for not supporting a 3% increase in the tax rates on the rich.

That’s how it will be viewed.

And that will be devastating in two years.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 10:50 AM

No worries they’ll find a way to blame the gop…

cmsinaz on November 26, 2012 at 10:34 AM

When the government and the media are in cahoots, the public is convinces that the recession was so bad no one could have done better, that by raising taxes on the rich happy days will be here again, and the government can provide everything they promise and no one ever has to pay for it.

STL_Vet on November 26, 2012 at 10:50 AM

You’re absolutely right. Problem is, the GOP will be blamed either way…agreeing to a deal will give bipartisan cover for those tax hikes while ceding the revenue and “fair share” argument to the Dems. ‘See, even the Republicans think the “rich” aren’t paying enough.’ And, when the expected revenues fall short of estimates and the Dems come back for more, on what leg will the GOP have to stand on?

You’ve got that one dead to rights – the Left and the Media [sorry to be repetitive] will do as they always done – Lie through their teeth about whatever happens to blame the GOP.

America has re-elected Obama and the House leadership should say that they heard this message from the electorate. They should say that the United States is already in the “fortunate” position of higher tax rates without further legislation – the expiration of the Bush tax cuts. They should emphasize that the President gets his wish without any further bills needing to be past by Congress.

The electorate must understand that we re-elected this idiot and we are responsible for our decisions. Those who suddenly find themselves folded in to the tax paying sector of the population or paying higher taxes need to have this experience that their adulation of this Marxist comes at a cost. Maybe they will pay more attention during the next election because of what they will pay after January.

DaveDief on November 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM

I absolutely agree with this. Well said.

changer1701 on November 26, 2012 at 10:42 AM

Let them have their wish – they can suffer the consequences.

Galt2009 on November 26, 2012 at 10:51 AM

Low information voters *feel* in their hearts that there are a LOT of very very wealthy people out there in America literally sitting on piles of gold and eating caviar. They *feel* that these people need to *feel* their pain and pay their *fair* share, and that will fix everything.

Math and logic are not involved in any of this. Just a grievance desire that Barky the great uniter has done his utmost best to foster. And it may be the only thing of note that he has achieved as President: dividing the country.

Republicans are going to be blamed either way unless they seriously sort out their messaging, which on current form is about as likely as Barky giving up Chooming.

CorporatePiggy on November 26, 2012 at 10:53 AM

Again (sorry to sound repetitive):

okay Steve, we have your take. Give it a rest will ya.

DanMan on November 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM

IF, I said IF, this is true, this sure won’t help those of us with 401K, ira’s, businesses? It seems bho/team/union thugs have a dandy plan for the $18.5T in our accounts? Gotta be fair now don’t we?

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/now-obama-wants-your-401k/?cat_orig=money
L

letget on November 26, 2012 at 11:03 AM

Always nice to see a pic of the Blithering idiot from
Washington State….look no further than this woman
being involved in anything about this Nation’s future.

…SHUDDER…..

ToddPA on November 26, 2012 at 11:05 AM

failing to patch the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT)…

This is not something that should be PATCHED every year. This is the tax on the very wealthy, that now encroaches on middle class families. Return it to its original intent, indexed to inflation. I think they dems don’t want to because they don’t like the tax rate on it, and the republicans are willing to play games with it, and as a conservative I think that stinks.

The AMT could also be broadened from it’s original intent to make the top taxes flat since they are less than the rates that people are supposed to pay. AND they take away the deductions that people say the wealth use unfairly. When those loopholes are gone, I want the MSM to ring the bell, announce them gone, and stop invoking them on TV against the rich. Broadening it from it’s original intent is what republicans and democrats are presiding over right now, guilty as charged.

Democrats don’t want to re write a permanent tax code because they are always hoping to levy more. Currently, there is research which shows the effective rates of taxation for each margin under the influence of the Bush Tax rates, which take into account current deductions.

People are also concerned with their total tax bill, including state, local, property, and other taxes. And People are concerned with how much of the total GDP is spent by government, and of course why Obama is borrowing so much to fund programs.

I want Congress to address issues, I want Obama and Reid to present their budget to the American people, NOT NEGOTIATE in secret. We want five days to see this posted and see what the ramifications are. We don’t want this done in a dark room on capital hill.

Fleuries on November 26, 2012 at 11:09 AM

okay Steve, we have your take. Give it a rest will ya

Just ignore my posts if you don’t like them.

Not hard to do.

If people keep insisting that the Republicans won’t be blamed I’ll keep trying to convince them that I think they’re wrong.

As I said, if you don’t like my arguments, just ignore them.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 11:13 AM

letget on November 26, 2012 at 11:03 AM

There’s been a lot of chit chat about a 401k raid and what form it would take. Some kind of social justice tax or maybe just some wholesale theft from holders. When they came for the GM bondholders, I didn’t say anything. Because I was not a GM bondholder (or was too stupid to realize I actually was)…

CorporatePiggy on November 26, 2012 at 11:15 AM

IF, I said IF, this is true, this sure won’t help those of us with 401K, ira’s, businesses? It seems bho/team/union thugs have a dandy plan for the $18.5T in our accounts? Gotta be fair now don’t we?

http://www.wnd.com/2012/11/now-obama-wants-your-401k/?cat_orig=money
L

letget on November 26, 2012 at 11:03 AM

The National Oppressive Left would see that as a wonderful way of redistributing the wealth – with $18.5T on the line, no one should have any doubt that they aren’t thinking of conducting this kind of theft.

Galt2009 on November 26, 2012 at 11:23 AM

“Over the cliff” is irrelevant imagery, since the natural course of socialism is exactly that: to bring “everyone” (well, with obvious exceptions) down to the same lowest common denominator, not to try to raise everyone up to a higher plane.

That “lady” in the video with the freebie ‘bamaPhone might kind of want something better for herself, but probably would be quite satisfied merely to know that more was taken from you instead.

bofh on November 26, 2012 at 11:25 AM

I used to think Patty Murray was the dumbest woman alive. That was before the 2012 Senate elections. Now I consider her ONE OF the dumbest women alive.

steebo77 on November 26, 2012 at 9:45 AM

I think your wrong. No matter how dumb Murray is, there are all of those voters in her district, many who could be considered women, voted for her because she is smarter than they are.

PrettyD_Vicious on November 26, 2012 at 11:31 AM

If we let the Bush cuts expire…we’ll be back to Clinton era rates which ushered in the greatest economic expansion in our history according to Dems.

Let them expire and we can put to rest THAT myth…as well as the Bush cut taxes for the rich myth.

If we’re gonna get blamed…then let’s at least accomplish something!

camaraderie on November 26, 2012 at 11:35 AM

My guess is that both parties will allow the fiscal cliff to happen and then use that as bargaining positions.

Both parties will then agree to cut the taxes on the middle class and allow the increases on the rich to stay. The Republicans will argue that the increases happened without their approval and they’re not responsible.

The only saving aspect of this is that the Republicans must insist that any tax increases go solely to deficit reduction.

The big argument will then be over entitlement and defense spending.

My other guess is that they’ll kick that one down the road again.

SteveMG on November 26, 2012 at 11:35 AM

This is so predictable. Like in the past, with Reagan and Bush Sr., Republicans will cave to increase taxes with the promise of spending cuts. The spending cuts will not happen. Mad Conservatives won’t show up to vote in the midterms and the Democrats will hold both Houses of Congress. Good. Let them own it…Let. It. Burn! Hopefully, out of this a third party will rise. A party with the courage to stand strong and take on the MSM. I’m not holding my breath, but a man can dream.

Decoski on November 26, 2012 at 11:56 AM

Republicans are going to get the blame. Period. The state press commisars already have the narrative written. They have learned long ago that American’s are stupid sheep who can be led to their own shearing easily.

kens on November 26, 2012 at 12:06 PM

If the Repubs are the party of big business we should have taken a remedial marketing class. If they are stupid enough to be out positioned by Patti Murray it’s hopeless.

owlpellets on November 26, 2012 at 12:19 PM

Republicans shouldn’t obstruct or compromise. That will just make them share the blame for the eventual financial crisis. Instead they should force the Democrats to own this mess by voting Present on any legislation introduced by the Democrats. If the Democrats are so confident that their policies are correct, let them show the strength of their convictions by implementing those policies without getting to get the Republicans to share the blame.

Unfortunately, the only way we can prove to a dumbed down electorate (the product of a left wing monopoly on education) that the Dems will damage the country is to let the Dems damage the country.

rokemronnie on November 26, 2012 at 12:43 PM

House Republicans can refuse to raise the debt limit until the Bush tax rates are renewed, and the defense cuts are reversed.

If the Democrats would like to have a balanced budget for 2013 and 2014, great, I’ll take it, since that will involve ~$1 trillion in budget cuts per year.

Republicans have the bigger stick. It’s time we used it.

Greg Q on November 26, 2012 at 1:02 PM

Come January 1st our spending in this house is going to make my frugal, depression-era grandparents look like big spending party animals.

Bishop on November 26, 2012 at 9:49 AM

I wouldn’t wait until Jan 1 crap is hitting the fan at that point. I’ve started now – I think it better to be prepared now. Slash spending, pay down debt, and get some savings/food storage ready for the bad times (and hope you don’t have to use them).

That’s why the GOP needs to stand back, don’t cast votes, don’t agree, don’t reach across the aisle, vote present and let the ‘rats own it.

Bingo. I’ve called my Rep/Senators and asked them just vote present. Let’s just get this over with already.

batter on November 26, 2012 at 1:27 PM

Is it me or does murray look alot like that harpy with high cheeks warren that won from Mass.? Both are not a little bit easy on the eyes and it appears have about the same IQ?
L

letget on November 26, 2012 at 1:43 PM

Some liberal women are easy to spot. They have “that look”. This is what Michael Savage calls the “mean-faced, clipped-hair” types.

Decoski on November 26, 2012 at 2:10 PM

Ugh. Murray is one of my Senators. Other just as bad, a little easier to look at. Thank you Seattle / sarc.. I’ve always thought she looks like Harry Reid’s long lost sister. Look up “tax and spend liberal” and you will see her picture. A case for term limits for sure. I think she is Miss December in the Dem Women’s 2013 Calendar.

Whiterock on November 26, 2012 at 2:56 PM