The tax man cometh (to Amazon)

posted at 2:01 pm on November 25, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

After Black Friday and Small Business Saturday comes Cyber Monday, a day when everyone is supposed to completely fail to rush out to any local stores and, instead, let their fingers do the shopping on their laptops. But as Politico reports, shoppers in a few states who visit Amazon will be in for an unpleasant surprise.

For the first time since the dawn of e-commerce, residents in California, Texas and Pennsylvania will be automatically charged state sales tax at the checkout on Amazon and some other online retail websites. Next year, Virginia and New Jersey residents will join them, followed by residents of Nevada, Indiana and Tennessee in January 2014.

Amazon pulled in $17.45 billion in the fourth quarter last year, or 36 percent of its annual revenue. Critics have argued that Amazon has become one of the top retailers in the country by undercutting them among consumers who knew they could go to the online retailer to avoid as much as 9 percent in sales tax. Amazon disputes the claim.

That makes eight states in the next year or so, and it’s difficult to imagine the tide turning in the other direction. Both Amazon and Wal-mart have been lobbying for the Marketplace Fairness Act in one form or another this year. They will probably be joined by a number of other retailers who do business both in cyberspace and their brick and mortar stores. One example is Lowe’s:

“We lose sales every day — not just on Black Friday — but any time we compete or try to compete on an unfair playing field,” said Scott Mason, vice president of government affairs for Lowe’s, the home improvement chain, which has Black Friday specials on everything from cordless drills to vacuums to artificial Christmas trees. Lowes.com collects sales tax from shoppers in every state that has a sales tax and where the company operates stores and warehouses. “It’s absolutely a position of disadvantage.”

It’s a losing formula to try to talk to conservatives about anything that involves more taxes of any kind, even under the best of circumstances. And when I first heard about this concept of “leveling the playing field’ in terms of sales taxes, I was dubious myself. But like it or not, there are some historical roots in this idea. The original concept of not charging sales tax for online sales came solely from the government expressing an interest in getting people used to the idea of shopping online. It was intended to grow confidence in the computer age for people who were initially suspicious of it. There was never any underlying legal assumption that sales which would otherwise normally be subject to taxation were somehow constitutionally exempt because of this new method of conducting the transactions.

Online commerce is alive and well, and in all honestly likely doesn’t need any preferential treatment to carry on and compete. In fact, some folks are already casting a jaundiced eye on the idea of needing a Cyber Monday at all.

These days, many people are not only warming to shopping on their desktop computers, but also making purchases on their mobile devices. And early indications are that online shoppers aren’t waiting for Monday.

According to payments company, PayPal, on Thanksgiving Day alone, the company saw global mobile payment volume increase 173 percent compared to the holiday last year. The number of global customers who shopped through PayPal mobile increased 164 percent compared to Thanksgiving last year.

Online shopping still holds plenty of attractions and advantages over traditional brick and mortar purchasing. There is the convenience of not having to leave home – and potentially be trampled – to get your gifts. You can also browse multiple retailers at the same time to find the best price rather than just seeing the cost at one store. And the variety of available options will always be massively wider on the web than in the largest box store. Giving them another leg up by cutting prices through not collecting the same sales taxes any other retailer in the same state does seems more than a bit unfair. And no, I’m not any more happy about it than you are.

Update: A reader sends in a link to this, regarding some recent polling showing unanticipated public support for evening sales taxes on online transactions.

The ICSC national poll identified a number of key findings, including:

-59% of respondents support the Congressional effort to require online retailers to collect sales tax at the point-of-purchase, up three percentage points since May.
- 71% of consumers are motivated to shop locally because 68 cents of every dollar spent at a locally-owned retailer stays in the community.
- 82% of consumers who support federal legislation do so because “common sense dictates that if you buy a product online you should pay the same sales tax as if you had bought the same product in a store.”

When told that 68 cents of every dollar spent at a locally-owned retailer stay in the community, seven in 10 Americans opt to shop at local brick-and-mortar stores. “Local retailers invest in their communities and play a significant role in the overall quality of life in the places we call home,” said Betsy Laird, senior vice president of global public policy. “This is clearly an issue that matters to consumers, and we are working closely with Congress to get the bills passed and signed into law this year,” added Laird.


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The tax man cometh (to Amazon)

Schadenfreude on November 25, 2012 at 2:04 PM

…flexibility!

KOOLAID2 on November 25, 2012 at 2:06 PM

Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

– Ronald Reagan

Forward!

farsighted on November 25, 2012 at 2:08 PM

to avoid as much as 9 percent in sales tax

Big government and its supporters are greedy.

LilyBart on November 25, 2012 at 2:09 PM

More regulatory overhead for the smaller businesses.

Have to love how the big businesses can get regulations in like that, all in the name of ‘fairness’. Just trying to protect a business model, after all… just like Disney.

ajacksonian on November 25, 2012 at 2:11 PM

I am beginning to enjoy the brick and mortar stores more lately, as the online competition has led them to have better return policies and prices. Price matching helps quite a bit.

astonerii on November 25, 2012 at 2:13 PM

Maybe it’s just my poor memory, but I swear I saw a lot more ‘in store only’ deals this year than in previous years. And this was at big stores like Target and Staples.

I pretty much use Amazon for everything now – I get free 2-day shipping with my discounted Prime membership (student), and it’s totally worth the convenience, especially when gas is upwards of $3.50/gallon where I live.

tdpwells on November 25, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Sales tax may be avoided, but shipping costs are commonly more than the sales tax would have been. Not really a big advantage, except with expensive items where sales tax significantly exceeds shipping cost.

This is just states trying to get their cut, and bricks n sticks stores trying to preserve their business. Meh.

iurockhead on November 25, 2012 at 2:17 PM

If an online retailer has a “traditional brick and mortar” store in your state, you will pay sales tax online.

I learned that buying a tablet from walmart.com the other day.

So why not make it fair? Why should wally’s site have to charge tax while amazon doesn’t?

itsnotaboutme on November 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Sales tax may be avoided, but shipping costs are commonly more than the sales tax would have been.

iurockhead on November 25, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Many online retailers charge no shipping fee with expensive purchases.

itsnotaboutme on November 25, 2012 at 2:20 PM

I wish that Amazon (Barnes & Noble too) would spend a little time and lobbying money on going after the publishers who’ve set outrageous pricing on their e-books lately.

Love my Kindle, but paying $14.99 for an e-book is insane especially when you can usually get the hardcover for only a dollar or so more.

JPeterman on November 25, 2012 at 2:27 PM

I don’t mind paying the sales taxes but I resent the fact that the shipping costs so much. Frequently the shipping costs more than the item I wish to purchase. When that happens I cancel the transaction. Doesn’t seem worth it to me.

IdrilofGondolin on November 25, 2012 at 2:28 PM

I hate this state. They demand 9% tax and these hokey dispossal/envirowhacko fees for electronics.

Blake on November 25, 2012 at 2:28 PM

I don’t mind paying the sales taxes but I resent the fact that the shipping costs so much. Frequently the shipping costs more than the item I wish to purchase. When that happens I cancel the transaction. Doesn’t seem worth it to me.

IdrilofGondolin on November 25, 2012 at 2:28 PM

Thank UPS/Fedex and their drivers who pull down $80k to drive a truck for this.

lorien1973 on November 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM

Shipping… the great equalizer. You have to pay shipping to your house somehow, right? So now Amazon is no longer equal, but at a disadvantage.

wsucoug on November 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM

OT (apologies, Jazz)

I frequently share HA blog articles on my facebook. Most times, they share nicely with the image you have chosen and a snippet of the text. But increasingly, all I get for the share is something like this:

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/25/are-we-really-facing-a-regulatory-onslaught-in-obamas-second-term-hint-yes/
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/11/25/ar

Out of the last 4 articles, Jazz’s (this one) and Ed’s QOOY share like they should, while Erika’s and Ed’s NFL Open Thread show up like what I put in blockquote above. It looks crappy. I saw someone mention this the other day. I took a quick look at the html at view source, but it’s been too many yrs since I wrote my own html to remember what errors to look for.

I don’t want to hijack the thread, but if someone could take a look at what’s causing the fb share problem, I’d appreciate it. Fixing it only helps Hot Air, after all.

BTW, whoever is responsible for stopping the auto-on volume of ads – a huge thanks!

Connie on November 25, 2012 at 2:32 PM

I can get better cabinet grade lumber online than I can at any brick and mortar store… cheaper, too, even with shipping. Ditto for power tools, including my table saw – I would never have been able to get a refurbished one at the price I got online from anything local. I can order directly from the refurbishing company, no intermediaries. Pretty much the same for lumber and specialty importers.

If the Big Boxes want to compete in areas like that, they need to work a whole lot harder as they have lost my business by not giving a decent selection, quality and price. They aren’t even getting 1 out of 3 on that. Fairness? To whom? These places can’t offer what I need to work with… they could if they tried and used their outlet power to leverage a discount… that hasn’t happened and they are losing my custom at a very fast rate.

Oh, and the non-tax business concept started with catalog sales: its impossible to impose a State or local tax outside of the jurisdiction for that tax. Not hindering interstate commerce and all that stuff.

ajacksonian on November 25, 2012 at 2:33 PM

Living in Nevada with an Amazon warehouse nearby I have never understood how they were not collecting Nevada sales tax. Because we have no inventory tax we have plenty of warehouses here to ship to Calif. Meaning in all fairness those companies should be subject to Nevada sales tax for shipments in state.

BullShooterAsInElk on November 25, 2012 at 2:34 PM

oops – Ed’s QOTY, sorry

Connie on November 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM

This article misses the point of the sales tax argument almost completely.

The “fairness” thing is, as usual, a RED HERRING.

The real issue is whether sellers who do NOT have a nexus in a state should be compelled to collect taxes for that state. There are HUGE problems for all but the largest sellers:

1. Finding out what the sales tax rate is not easy, and states do not help. Sellers would be in constant legal jeopardy, with no practical way out for any but the largest sellers who can afford a full-time staff to deal with this problem.

2. Do we really want a new on-line business to register with every state and every locality in the country in order to do business on-line? There are over 2000 tax entities in Kansas alone!!! The ludicrous alternative is to restrict on-line sellers to selling in only a highly restricted list of customers in areas where they are registered: this defeats the major advantage having e-commerce!!

3. Remitting the sales tax would force all but the smallest sellers out of business because of the extremely high cost of figuring, collecting, and filing the tax in over 100,000 taxing jurisdictions in the USA alone!!!

So the REAL issue is, how many on-line sellers do you want: millions, or just a half-dozen huge sellers??

Allowing states to collect internet taxes from all internet sellers would create an insurmountable legal and fiscal barrier to entry of new on-line merchants, the destruction of millions of existing on-line businesses, and less choice and higher prices for all on-line purchasers.

This measure would probably force most on-line business to be evicted from the USA and instead conducted from small foreign countries which have business-friendly laws.

landlines on November 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM

Shipping… the great equalizer. You have to pay shipping to your house somehow, right? So now Amazon is no longer equal, but at a disadvantage.

wsucoug on November 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM

Not really. There are a lot of ways to get out of paying for shipping at Amazon. Joining Amazon Prime gets you free two day shipping on just about everything. And even without forking over the Amazon Prime fee, you can get free “super saver” shipping on a large percentage of the items they sell.

Shump on November 25, 2012 at 2:37 PM

It’s not so much an issue of taxation as it is an issue of government spending. Government never has enough. So I support anything that denies more money to the big spenders.

Charlemagne on November 25, 2012 at 2:37 PM

I’m not going to pay both taxes AND shipping. I doubt I’m the only one either. So… once again, greedy politicians undercut growth, not just by taxing the online retailer, but by slowing business to all the ancillary enterprises associated with it.

We’ll be cutting waaaaayyy back on our spending this year anyway, not knowing what to expect from the economy going forward but reasonably assured that under the consistent stupidity of Democrats it’s unlikely to be pleasant.

Murf76 on November 25, 2012 at 2:37 PM

@Connie: if they would get rid of the obnoxious full screen take-over-your-browser pop-up ad that would be good to.

I never understood why websites would do something as manifestly stupid as TRY to annoy the $%#@ out of their customers.

DaveS on November 25, 2012 at 2:39 PM

I really don’t care about arguments of fairness with local retailers, the less money corrupt government bureaucrats can get their hands on, the better.

Maybe online sales taxes are inevitable, but can Republicans PLEASE be smart enough to not have their fingerprints on implementing it? I really don’t see a clamor from the howling masses to have more taxes on stuff they buy online.

Maybe we can be “Santa Claus” on this issue?

BradTank on November 25, 2012 at 2:39 PM

I think most people buy online to avoid taxes..i know i do..i won’t like it one bit when i have to start paying taxes for purchases on amazon

sadsushi on November 25, 2012 at 2:41 PM

Maybe online sales taxes are inevitable, but can Republicans PLEASE be smart enough to not have their fingerprints on implementing it?

Or better yet – just don’t give it up for free.

Democrats want this tax at the state level? Ok which equivalent tax will we cut?

18-1 on November 25, 2012 at 2:46 PM

Whenever they talk about fairness, it’s always about raising taxes.

Why not eliminate sales taxes to create fairness?

muckdog on November 25, 2012 at 2:48 PM

Yahoo News Voter: “Is it true that tax increases just get passed on to us as consumers?”

Truth teller: “Yes”.

Yahoo News Voter: “Wellll, crap….
…long pause……mmmmm, Make the rich pay their fair share. I hate them!!!!”

And there you go…….just another revenue and tax conversation in TEATERMERICA!!

PappyD61 on November 25, 2012 at 2:50 PM

Jazz leaves out the reason that Amazon and Walmart want to tax online sales… it will kill much of their Internet-based small business competition. Setting up compliance with thousands of different tax codes all over the country is a very onerous, costly task that will be impossible for many Internet-based small businesses to bear. It’s no problem for big guys like Amazon, however.

So government gets their “new revenues”, and Amazon gets to stifle smaller competition from specialty retailers which can’t afford to comply with the new rules. Small businesses and consumers are the ones who suffer, while big businesses and governments receive their paydays. Too bad the small guys can’t afford lobbyists.

daviddunn on November 25, 2012 at 2:52 PM

Brick and mortar stores consume local infrastructure and services not used by Internet retailers. -burn8

burn8 on November 25, 2012 at 2:53 PM

This would just KILL anything I would buy from a small retailer who has a bigger mark up than the bigger sites.

Why does every thing need to be taxed and taxed again. Its not income problem its the spending that is the problem. What is planned for all this new found wealth? More abortions? Handing out more free birth control?

watertown on November 25, 2012 at 2:53 PM

Actually, the idea that online retail price advantage because of sales tax is, entirely without merit. With the exception of items that are both light weight and expensive, the savings from the lack of sales tax are usually offset by the cost of shipping.

I can speak from some personal experience, as I work at an online retailer that also has a physical storefront, preparedpantry.com.

There are customers whom, because of shipping, will only buy things in massive quantities, once or twice a year during road trips. They are used to paying sales tax on items, but hate the idea of paying for shipping.

Now of course, Amazon doesn’t charge shipping on a lot of items, but they’re making up for that by subtly increasing prices elsewhere. Remember, Tanstaafl, there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.

Now, all this said, I actually don’t think this helps out local retail as much as they’d like to think it will. Local retail will still on average be more expensive before sales tax, and not even a large Best Buy can match the selection of products and reviews found on online retail sites. Additionally, physical retail requires travel expenses and time, making it less convenient than online shopping.

This isn’t to say that local retail is doomed, but I think at this point the market simply needs to adapt. Tacking on a sales tax, isn’t going to change things, at most it’ll just prompt some retailers to postpone making necessary changes.

WolvenOne on November 25, 2012 at 2:54 PM

daviddunn on November 25, 2012 at 2:52 PM

Or they can ” conveniently ” go to Amazon and sell said stuff on their sites for a “fee” and they will take care of the tax thing for you.

watertown on November 25, 2012 at 2:55 PM

People will always look for ways around the over taxation. You add taxes to internet purchases, you will find people who stop purchasing. The theft of dollars thru taxation will be fought. people are not going to change who they are, because you decided you are going to take their money, in a different way. So, until you go to a cashless society & give up all semblance of Freedom, people will continue to find ways around the abusive theft of their money, by Govt.

http://www.paratisiusa.blogspot.com

God Bless America!

paratisi on November 25, 2012 at 2:55 PM

Boo hoo. NY state residents have been paying sales tax on Amazon purchases for several years. Welcome to the tax party, pal.

rcpjr on November 25, 2012 at 2:55 PM

I think most people buy online to avoid taxes..i know i do..i won’t like it one bit when i have to start paying taxes for purchases on amazon

sadsushi on November 25, 2012 at 2:41 PM

Most of the items I buy on-line are not found in local stores.

The on-line environment allows sellers to offer thousands and thousands of specialized items (each of which would be a “slow mover” in a small market) to a huge geographic area without the need to maintain a hugely expensive local inventory in multiple locations.

The availability of the on-line environment offers the purchaser access to millions of items and choices he would not otherwise have. For example, no retailer could afford to stock thousands of different makes and models of cameras TV’s, and VCR’s, but such wide choices are readily available to the on-line purchaser, along with manuals, product reviews, and other support which would NOT be available in a local store.

landlines on November 25, 2012 at 2:57 PM

jazz shaw, the ultimate concern troll. love having a leading conservative web site with this asshat as a regular contributor to wisen us with his disinterested platitudes.

ed & allah, if you ever want to stop the extreme weakening of your brand, you could start with dumping this guy.

fool.

truecon on November 25, 2012 at 3:00 PM

“The ICSC national poll identified a number of key findings, including:”

Really? So the trade group formed to help shopping centers (International Council of Shopping Centers which serves “The global retail real estate) finds that people want to have sales tax on online orders. Let me show you my shocked face.

Zaggs on November 25, 2012 at 3:01 PM

I’m in kalifornia and did all of my shopping before 9/14/11.

I find it hard to believe the 68% number because the usual rule for small retailers is to double the cost for goods. So that is 50% most likely going out to other parts of the country and world. Then of course there is fuel to ship products to the local retailer.

Sounds like more magical economic thinking like Nanzi Pelousi and that every UE and welfare dollar spent equals $3.80 worth of economic activity.

Me thinks this is just propaganda to get an extra 10% pf our money for state governments to spend on people retiring at age 50.

jukin3 on November 25, 2012 at 3:02 PM

Jazz leaves out the reason that Amazon and Walmart want to tax online sales… it will kill much of their Internet-based small business competition. Setting up compliance with thousands of different tax codes all over the country is a very onerous, costly task that will be impossible for many Internet-based small businesses to bear. It’s no problem for big guys like Amazon, however.

So government gets their “new revenues”, and Amazon gets to stifle smaller competition from specialty retailers which can’t afford to comply with the new rules. Small businesses and consumers are the ones who suffer, while big businesses and governments receive their paydays. Too bad the small guys can’t afford lobbyists.

daviddunn on November 25, 2012 at 2:52 PM

This.

I know my small internet business will be forced to close as I cannot afford to hire a new accountant to keep up with the regulations and bookkeeping requirements.

Fascism: The de-facto partnership of big-government and big-business.

Joe Mama on November 25, 2012 at 3:05 PM

Sales tax may be avoided, but shipping costs are commonly more than the sales tax would have been. Not really a big advantage, except with expensive items where sales tax significantly exceeds shipping cost.

This is just states trying to get their cut, and bricks n sticks stores trying to preserve their business. Meh.

iurockhead on November 25, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Ironic. We have a Mom and Pop Pharmacy in my city that touts better than “on-line” prices and tugs at your heartstrings with a “keeping your business local” guilt trip.

Guess what they have.

hawkdriver on November 25, 2012 at 3:08 PM

If you think this is bad, brace yourself for when the Dems start floating the national VAT again. And they will get it. America is a European nation now. The only question left about adopting European tax policies is when it will happen (and how long it will take for the whole archway to collapse now that the American keystone has finally rotted away, too).

Blacklake on November 25, 2012 at 3:08 PM

I’d be for a nationalized sales tax if the sales tax were levied by a state at the point of sale — which for brick and mortar sales would be at the store’s location — and for internet sales would be at the location of the server upon which the transaction is performed.

The result would not be a race to the top but rather a race to the bottom in terms of which state or municipality could charge the lowest sales tax.

As for Amazon, they are earning a huge profit off of the sales taxes here in California — for they chose municipalities which would rebate them nearly all of the sales tax they charged in return for them building their nexus’ in those places.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/19/business/la-fi-amazon-sales-taxes-20120520

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2012 at 3:17 PM

The real issue is whether sellers who do NOT have a nexus in a state should be compelled to collect taxes for that state. There are HUGE problems for all but the largest sellers:

landlines on November 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM

Pretty much.

Basically the sales tax is becoming a state tariff that businesses must collect and that only large corporations can afford to administer on a national basis.

The brave new socialist state prefers and favors a few very large corporations that are more easily controlled, regulated, restricted, and taxed, and whose transactions with citizens are more easily controlled, regulated, restricted, and taxed, over hundreds or thousands of smaller businesses. It’s even better when these corporations are declared “too big to fail”.

The new socialism no longer needs government and worker ownership of business to achieve socialist objectives and goals. It only needs pervasive control and regulation of the economic activity businesses engage in.

farsighted on November 25, 2012 at 3:18 PM

I wish that Amazon (Barnes & Noble too) would spend a little time and lobbying money on going after the publishers who’ve set outrageous pricing on their e-books lately.

Love my Kindle, but paying $14.99 for an e-book is insane especially when you can usually get the hardcover for only a dollar or so more.

JPeterman on November 25, 2012 at 2:27 PM

That’s what I keep reminding people of when they talk about trading out school textbooks for downloadable versions on electronic tablets. They seem to think that electronic versions will be way cheaper than the paper versions thus costing taxpayers less (or families for homeschooling or private schools). But if a biology text for high school now runs say $45, it will be at least the same for the electronic version.

In fact, it could be even more expensive. Surely the book publisher will offer an array of electronic ancillaries for the students that will drive up the cost even more.

Also, if anyone’s been paying attention over the last fifty years, the more electronics has moved into children’s lives and the classroom, the less educated we’ve become.

But, it seems that our predominant group think is that if something should work, but doesn’t, just do it even more.

Dr. ZhivBlago on November 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM

if there gonna tax internet sales the rate should be determined at the merchants location not the buyer’s. thats the way it is in brick and mortar stores. why should internet sales be different?? i remember in the 90′s if you wanted to buy a computer, tv or any other high priced item we would drive to denton county where the sales tax was a full 1% lower than dallas county. if they internet vendors have to use the buyer’s location as the basis for tax rate make the brick and mortar stores do the same, they’ll quickly change their mind on how good this legislation is.

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM

Following their logic, when I’m on vacation in another state, the stores there should charge me VA sales tax and send the money to VA.

huckleberryfriend on November 25, 2012 at 3:26 PM

WolvenOne on November 25, 2012 at 2:54 PM

shipping costs?? you must be a really stupid shopper to pay shipping costs. i make about half my non-grocery purchases online and cant remember the last time i paid for shipping.

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 3:28 PM

I hate shopping, so I buy everything I can online. Sales tax or no sales tax. Usually my default site is Amazon because of the free shipping and usually their prices are competitive. I figure the gas I save alone compensates for any shipping fees. Also, my time. As I said, I hate shopping, so if I can do so while watching tv on my lazyboy recliner, all the better. Otherwise, for each shopping trip, I consider that at least an hour stolen of my leisure time, and again, the gas to get to/from the store.

In fact, even my groceries are done online with a local store called Meijer. They pick up all of the stuff in store for me, and I just have to drive up to their parking lot and they load it up in my car and collect my money at my driver window. I pick up my order today at 6 pm. It took me 20 minutes to load up my “basket” while watching a movie.

For those who have never had their own business or had to file the tax forms to pay sales taxes, trust me, it is a nightmare. Each entity has its own rate. One county next to another might have a different sales tax rate do to local stuff they are financing through sales taxes. The retailer has to file forms for each entity to pay the stupid tax. Many entities charge an annual fee for a sales tax license. A small internet business can’t possibly afford to comply with these onerous tax collection methods – either with the time it takes to comply, or the fees they charge the retailer just for the “privilege” of collecting these taxes.

So unless Congress can figure out how to do this, they need to keep their mitts out of this.

karenhasfreedom on November 25, 2012 at 3:33 PM

It’s a perfect combination of big retail lobbying money hungry mismanaged state governments (and unfortunately Texas was one of the prime movers in this cash grab).

Amazon’s business model will soon involve having a major physical presence in all 50 states. It will therefore be forced to charge sales tax in every state, comply with all regulations in every state, and pay every state’s separate set of taxes. That’s a regulatory bitch. So what do you do? Pay lobbyists tens of millions to lobby in the name of making it ‘fairer’ to put everyone in their boat. Sucks to be you, small e-tailers as Amazon and Walmart are now after you.

A state’s business model is to grab as much cash as it can get away with.

Marriage made in heaven.

CorporatePiggy on November 25, 2012 at 3:35 PM

So why not make it fair? Why should wally’s site have to charge tax while amazon doesn’t?

itsnotaboutme

Speaking of fair, why does WalMart get to charge lower prices than the average mom and pop store? Why not make it fair and force them to charge the same price as everyone else? It’s also not fair that Walmart makes so much money, while many mom and pops barely get by. Something needs to be done about that.

xblade on November 25, 2012 at 3:37 PM

if there gonna tax internet sales the rate should be determined at the merchants location not the buyer’s. thats the way it is in brick and mortar stores. why should internet sales be different?? i remember in the 90′s if you wanted to buy a computer, tv or any other high priced item we would drive to denton county where the sales tax was a full 1% lower than dallas county. if they internet vendors have to use the buyer’s location as the basis for tax rate make the brick and mortar stores do the same, they’ll quickly change their mind on how good this legislation is.

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 3:25 PM

Ah, good point. This is the only workable solution to the convoluted problem of trying to pay the tax to the shipping destination. Just collect the tax at the actual shipping site (or business site), and that way the small retailer has only one tax form to file with the sales tax they collect.

Now the states without the sales tax laws will have an advantage. I can see amazon and the other bigger companies locating their shipping warehouses in the no sales tax states.

Sales tax is a very regressive tax anyway. I am surprised the progressives put up with it. I know the logic is that a local entity also collects from visitors, and in many places, sales taxes are the only taxes low income people pay, so in some way it helps to defray the cost of providing municipal services to all. Whatever.

karenhasfreedom on November 25, 2012 at 3:39 PM

I’m not going to pay both taxes AND shipping. I doubt I’m the only one either.

Murf76 on November 25, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Nope, you’re not the only one. To all those who say shipping is “free” from Amazon: no company gives anything away, you are paying shipping, you just aren’t seeing it directly applied.

Fact is that the online retailers are at a disadvantage due to shipping, brick and mortar due to sales taxes. This will screw up on-line retailers who typically charge about 7 to 10% for shipping (depending on size of order) now needed to add another 8 to 10% for sales tax.

On the surface, this sounds so reasonable and simple. Problem is, there are so many taxing entities that determining compliance will be a nightmare even for giants like Walmart and Amazon. For example, I live in Arizona so I’m subject to Arizona tax, I live in unincorporated Pima county, so I’m subject to county sales tax. However, I do not live in Tucson, nor do I live in any other municipality, so I should not be subject to any city sales taxes if the goods are delivered to my door. However, 1/2 mile from where I live, people live in a municipality, so they would be subject to state plus county plus city tax. 1 mile away in the other direction, people live in the city of Tucson, so they have yet another rate they would be required to pay. This will be an absolute nightmare to implement.

AZfederalist on November 25, 2012 at 3:42 PM

I’m a little curious about just who is going to enforce this sales tax collection.
If I – in Missouri – sell a widget to someone in California for $100+shipping, and I don’t collect any Calif. sales tax…a)how does Calif. know I sold something to someone living there; and b)how are they going to force me to send them any tax money? Who is going to come by and collect it?

Solaratov on November 25, 2012 at 3:45 PM

Those who have pointed out that Amazon just wants to kill up and coming competitors have hit the nail on the head. Between that and Wal-Mart’s support of O-care, I’m done. Not going to renew my Amazon Prime membership.

I’m at the point where I will pay a few more bucks to the little guy who isn’t going to hire lobbyists and fund politicians who will rob me of more of my money and liberty.

I’ll just make do with a lot less; only what I need. I won’t support these crony capitalists any longer.

Firefly_76 on November 25, 2012 at 3:46 PM

I’m at the point where I will pay a few more bucks to the little guy who isn’t going to hire lobbyists and fund politicians who will rob me of more of my money and liberty.

I’ll just make do with a lot less; only what I need. I won’t support these crony capitalists any longer.

Firefly_76 on November 25, 2012 at 3:46 PM

.
We’re all going to be “making do with a lot less”, not too much longer down the road.

Not because of boycotting Wal-Mart, either.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 3:52 PM

Thank UPS/Fedex and their drivers who pull down $80k to drive a truck for this.

lorien1973 on November 25, 2012 at 2:31 PM

And how much of that $80k gets burned off in diesel fuel? Income taxes? Truck Leasing Fees? The myriad of CDL fees and exams that must be done and re-done every few years? Maintenance on said truck?

I know for me (a pizza delivery man)on paper I make 12-14k per year. In a good month I put 1,500-2,000 miles on my vehicle and spend about $120 PER WEEK MINIMUM on gasoline. That’s not counting the insurance, and maintenance on vehicle or the many other bills I have to pay (cell phone bill, rent, groceries, etc)

So yeah consider all those costs and I’m pushing out about $1,000 per month (before even being able to pay for much needed repairs) leaving me with my head barely above water.

Oh and I’m simultaneously trying to get finished with my degree on top of all this fun.

I respectfully suggest you consider all those costs BEFORE you criticize whatever those truckers make.

/VR

SgtSVJones on November 25, 2012 at 3:53 PM

Firefly_76 on November 25, 2012 at 3:46 PM

I’d agree. Having to pay sales tax and shipping and knowing why Amazon is playing this game has turned me entirely off them.

In fact I’ve stopped buying online from all in-state retailers. Shame as I like some of the smaller ones but sales tax plus shipping rarely makes sense on anything other than an ebook.

CorporatePiggy on November 25, 2012 at 3:54 PM

SgtSVJones on November 25, 2012 at 3:53 PM

are ups/fedex drivers independent contractors? if not, as employees driving company owned vehicles they wouldnt be expected to cover any of those fees.

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 3:57 PM

I respectfully suggest you consider all those costs BEFORE you criticize whatever those truckers make.

/VR

SgtSVJones on November 25, 2012 at 3:53 PM

With all due respect, you are talking apples and oranges. UPS and Fedex own the trucks and do all the maintenance. UPS drivers are unionized and are not responsible for the operating costs of their trucks. Not the same as a private pizza delivery driver.

AZfederalist on November 25, 2012 at 3:58 PM

Connie on November 25, 2012 at 2:32 PM

That happens to me on occasion with other sites.

Sometimes, if you refresh your Facebook page and try again, it works (it may take several tries). To do that, you should of course copy the text/link so all you have to do is paste it into the status box again.

I don’t like it when you paste a story / link on Facebook and you get no preview photo at all.

TigerPaw on November 25, 2012 at 3:58 PM

SgtSVJones on November 25, 2012 at 3:53 PM

I used to date a guy who was a truck driver. He was an owner operator for a few of the years we dated.

I don’t know all the ins and outs of it, but he never seemed to have hardly any money, but he kept saying how much money such an occupation could pull in.

Then he’d turn around the next month and ask me to pay his apartment rent for him again, or his truck payment again, and I earned way less in my standard 9 to 5 job than he did.

TigerPaw on November 25, 2012 at 4:00 PM

Soon, you’ll need a permit to have a yard/garage sale. Once you pay the permit fee, you’ll have to file an income declaration from your sale in order to pay taxes on it. Remember, peoples’ food and health care are expensive here in the land…of…the…free.

rebarnard on November 25, 2012 at 4:01 PM

In the last 5 or so years I’ve averaged a couple hundred $ a month on Amazon peaking significantly around the holidays via Amazon. Since Amazon caved on sales tax I have cut back to near zero and will NOT be doing any holiday shopping at all there. I now use them as an information source only. For reviews and research. I then find a different retailer online sans tax or buy locally. Only the use of different online retailer comes close to the same level of spending. Local stays about the same. I live in a bedroom community outside of LA so I choose not to do business with the over priced vultures unless absolutely unavoidable. I did sneak in the Amazon Prime membership and that paid for itself in 2 months prior to Amazon caving on Kalifornia state tax collection.

fewenuff on November 25, 2012 at 4:04 PM

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 3:28 PM

A lot of smaller online retailers cannot eat the cost of shipping. Amazon can, both because they can afford lower margins, and because the amount of merchandise they move gives them good rates with companies like UPS and FedEx.

Yes, shop around and you can avoid shipping costs. However, the smaller struggling online retailers cannot match that, and those are the ones most likely to be adversely affected by online sales tax.

Like I said, this isn’t really about fairness. It’s about major retailers online and off, teaming up to crush competition before it develops.

WolvenOne on November 25, 2012 at 4:06 PM

Feels like an idiot….

Umm sorry folks.

SgtSVJones on November 25, 2012 at 4:12 PM

There was no mention that a lot of other small businesses at places like eBay and Etsy would go out of business. Why would that be missing from this article, as this is the main reason small businesses were fighting this?

moonsbreath on November 25, 2012 at 4:13 PM

Like I said, this isn’t really about fairness. It’s about major retailers online and off, teaming up to crush competition before it develops.

WolvenOne on November 25, 2012 at 4:06 PM

Think it’s also these politicians and bureaucrats getting p-ed off that somebody, somewhere is making a business transaction and they aren’t getting “their cut.”

Our government is very similar to the Mafia.

Dr. ZhivBlago on November 25, 2012 at 4:15 PM

Soon, you’ll need a permit to have a yard/garage sale. Once you pay the permit fee, you’ll have to file an income declaration from your sale in order to pay taxes on it. Remember, peoples’ food and health care are expensive here in the land…of…the…free.

rebarnard on November 25, 2012 at 4:01 PM

My sister lives in Doraville, GA and they’re already doing that. You have to pay a $25 fee to get a permit for yard sales. The city says they’re doing this because they want to make sure it’s used items that are being sold and not new items. So far she doesn’t have to give a proof of sales, and she has to go back to city hall to get her money back.

moonsbreath on November 25, 2012 at 4:18 PM

I figured Amazon would apply sales taxes eventually, but that still won’t stop me from shopping online over shopping in the brick and mortar store where I have to put up with people who are not pleasant and rude/tired employees who are sick to death of those crazy Christmas shoppers.

Plus, since I’m an author, the nice thing about publishing my own novels on Kindle and Nook is that I don’t charge a ridiculous amount like the dinosaur traditional publishers do. Since I charge at less than $5 for my novels, you won’t feel so ripped off when you get stuck with sales taxes. Heck my paperbacks are cheaper than most traditionally published ebooks.

cebj25 on November 25, 2012 at 4:19 PM

Amazon fought this tooth & nail for a long time. They even went so far as to pull out their ‘physical presence’ by cutting all ties to distributors and so on in some states like California.

But time finally caught up with them. Because it always was just a matter of time.

FlatFoot on November 25, 2012 at 4:20 PM

shipping costs?? you must be a really stupid shopper to pay shipping costs. i make about half my non-grocery purchases online and cant remember the last time i paid for shipping.

chasdal

If you don’t think you’re paying shipping, I’d say you’re the stupid shopper, lol.

xblade on November 25, 2012 at 4:26 PM

All you need to know is GIANT companies like Amazon and Walmart are looking to “level the playing field”.

Right. THEY have the resources to collect, process, and remit sales tax payments to 50 states. Small businesses – DO NOT.

That is the very opposite of “leveling the playing field”. What Amazon and Walmart want is an unfair advantage over their competition.

deadrody on November 25, 2012 at 4:35 PM

That makes eight states in the next year or so, and it’s difficult to imagine the tide turning in the other direction.

But is it because they now have a physical presence in those 8 states? If so, the tide isn’t turning anywhere. They’re simply complying with the law.

xblade on November 25, 2012 at 4:36 PM

There was no mention that a lot of other small businesses at places like eBay and Etsy would go out of business. Why would that be missing from this article, as this is the main reason small businesses were fighting this?

moonsbreath on November 25, 2012 at 4:13 PM

Because the media is incompetent. Duh.

deadrody on November 25, 2012 at 4:36 PM

So why not make it fair? Why should wally’s site have to charge tax while amazon doesn’t?

itsnotaboutme on November 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Because Amazon doesn’t have a physical store in the state in question. They derive absolutely no benefit from the state. They receive no fire or police protection. No money is spent running utilities to their establishment. Why should Amazon act as an unpaid tax collector for a state that provides nothing in return?

Wendya on November 25, 2012 at 4:41 PM

as much as 9 percent…

Try 9.25 up to 9.75 in my neck of the woods and surrounding vicinity.

I’m not looking forward to it, particularly since I HATE the evil crap government does with MY money!

pannw on November 25, 2012 at 4:42 PM

This will hurt my small business as we do all of our sales online. There’s only two of us and there is just no way we can comfortably comply with thousands upon thousands of tax jurisdictions. We’re gonna get screwed and all because these greedy SOB’s on Washington can’t get their fluking spending under control.

Here’s an idea, instead if levying an new tax on online retailers, states eliminate or lower their states sales tax! WOW! What a freakin concept. Less taxes not more!

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 4:46 PM

As soon as I noticed Amazon had started collecting PA sales tax, I switched to Ebay or other retailers whenever possible.

They can “level the playing field” for buggy whips if they want to, but the answer to taxes is not more taxes, but less.

petefrt on November 25, 2012 at 4:49 PM

Here’s an idea, instead if levying an new tax on online retailers, states eliminate or lower their states sales tax!

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 4:46 PM

Exactly. Taxing the internet puts it a$$ backwards. The remedy for taxes is not more taxes. They should cut taxes on brick and mortar stores. (And spend less)

petefrt on November 25, 2012 at 4:52 PM

My sister lives in Doraville, GA and they’re already doing that. You have to pay a $25 fee to get a permit for yard sales. The city says they’re doing this because they want to make sure it’s used items that are being sold and not new items. So far she doesn’t have to give a proof of sales, and she has to go back to city hall to get her money back.

moonsbreath on November 25, 2012 at 4:18 PM

In some areas of Texas, one has to pay some kind of fee and get permission to hold a garage sale.

I don’t remember all the particulars, or who exactly it is who gets the fee, but it does happen, and it’s required to stay legal.

TigerPaw on November 25, 2012 at 4:56 PM

I don’t believe those numbers stated for public support for sales taxes…

AND I predict some overseas tricks to avoid it WILL happen once the states reach critical mass.

golfmann on November 25, 2012 at 4:56 PM

How is this even constitutional? How can one be reasonably taxed in a state they don’t reside in? They receive no benefits in return. Talk about taxation without representation.

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Also what comes after this? About half of our business comes from across the pond. Are our over lords going o start taxing Europeans too?

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 5:02 PM

How is this even constitutional? How can one be reasonably taxed in a state they don’t reside in? They receive no benefits in return. Talk about taxation without representation.

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 4:59 PM

you arent being taxed in a state you dont reside in. the buyers local sales tax is what is charged. thats the problem. the seller has to somehow be familar w/ the tax rates and rules of thousands of jurisdictions. they have to know what items are taxed in Texas but arent taxed in wyoming. its a business killer. if this is to be done the rate/rules should be those in effect at the seller’s location. of course, the best solution is to just not pass these laws but good luck w/ that.

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 5:03 PM

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 5:03 PM

Ah yes, you’re correct. Thanks for the clarification. Either way this is a load of sh!te that no one needs right now. I’m so sick of these politicians sticking their damn fingers in every aspect of our private lives.

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 5:30 PM

First off, Cyber Monday isn’t today what Cyber Monday used to be.

Originally, Cyber Monday occured because folks had Dial Up for their Home Connection and waited until work on Monday (where they had a High Speed connection like a T1) to do their Online Shopping.

Today, much of the Cyber Monday shopping takes place from Friday night through Monday, but the Accrual isn’t counted until EOB Monday.

jaydee_007 on November 25, 2012 at 5:30 PM

I cannot say I agree with most of the people here. I consider myself a conservative, but do believe the online sales should be taxed at the level of the location the purchaser lives in. One online proprietor says it will put him out of business. This argument is bogus. I have no doubts there is a program out there that will calculate sales tax down to the town. If there is not a program, some entrepreneur will make one. Another commenter claims states are not cooperative in sharing what their sales tax rates are. That is bull. I am trying to imagine the person calling to ask and the state revenue department denying the information.

duggersd on November 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM

duggersd on November 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM

Figuring out what to tax each customer based on their zip code is easy enough, cutting checks to all fifty states and the thousands of local municipalities each year is another thing entirely. Do you want to do the book keeping for each individual sale across the country? I can’t pay you but I’m sure it’s an easy task for someone with such confidence that this is no big deal.

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 5:51 PM

If an online retailer has a “traditional brick and mortar” store in your state, you will pay sales tax online.

I learned that buying a tablet from walmart.com the other day.

So why not make it fair? Why should wally’s site have to charge tax while amazon doesn’t?

itsnotaboutme on November 25, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Speaking of fair, why does WalMart get to charge lower prices than the average mom and pop store? Why not make it fair and force them to charge the same price as everyone else? It’s also not fair that Walmart makes so much money, while many mom and pops barely get by. Something needs to be done about that.

xblade on November 25, 2012 at 3:37 PM

Because Walmart runs their business more efficiently. Are you in favor of punishing efficiency?

Because Amazon doesn’t have a physical store in the state in question. They derive absolutely no benefit from the state. They receive no fire or police protection. No money is spent running utilities to their establishment. Why should Amazon act as an unpaid tax collector for a state that provides nothing in return?

Wendya on November 25, 2012 at 4:41 PM

This is actually a very good answer, good enough to cause me to change my mind.

*gasp*

Yes, someone on the internet just changed his mind. It can happen.
:D

itsnotaboutme on November 25, 2012 at 5:53 PM

Jawneemusic, Figuring out the sales tax won’t be a problem. Cutting a check won’t be a problem. We already do everything online. I make all kinds of payments online. I would think you can send it to the state and let them distribute it. I see it as a cost of doing business. If as a business you cannot comply then you do not stay in business. As an individual, I purchase things online and in brick and mortar stores. As an online merchant, you have all kinds of advantages. You do not have to keep the inventory that the stores do. You do not have to pay employees. In fact, it would not surprise me if many online merchants merely have an outlet to purchase an item and can have it shipped directly from the outlet. Like it or not, sales tax is one of the ways government is run. In SD, it is our main source. We do not have an income tax, either individual or corporate. We have one of the lowest tax per capita rates in the nation. I would rather pay the taxes than see an income tax in our state. I do not doubt some states will increase other taxes or fees as they see their sales tax revenues decrease.

duggersd on November 25, 2012 at 6:08 PM

Yet another oba-mao middle class tax increase…. liberals are absolutely brainless. Elections have consequences you morons.

ultracon on November 25, 2012 at 6:09 PM

duggersd on November 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM

no, you arent a conservative. you are way too generous w/ other peoples money. the cost of complying w/ all those regulations is astounding. writing checks after check after check is a cost those businesses have to bear, but they also have to know when they are supposed to send a check to which taxing entity. and if they miss a deadline you think those penalties will just get waived?? you claim you make all kind of payments online, how many? i bet 5 or 6 maybe? your bills? you think that compares to this clusterf*ck?? you need to re-think things

chasdal on November 25, 2012 at 6:19 PM

duggersd on November 25, 2012 at 6:08 PM

Conservative my a$$. What kind of conservative says “comply with government over reach or go out of business”?

You’re right, I don’t have a lot of overhead but we’re a small business who’s growth has been stagnate due to this dreadful economy. Adding yet another burden to doing business what the left advocates. You should be demanding states eliminate or lower their sales taxes to allow their brick and mortar stores to be more competitive. Not punishing business that don’t even reside in a said state. I have two small children I have to feed and forcing me out of business because I can’t gather the resources to comply with such government over reach is NOT conservative.

jawkneemusic on November 25, 2012 at 6:30 PM

“We lose sales every day — not just on Black Friday — but any time we compete or try to compete on an unfair playing field,”

BS. I hate shopping and driving around to find out the stores don’t have what I want. It’s a waste of time and it’s a waste of gas because there is a huge information gap. Holiday shopping multiplies that by an order of magnitude, both in the inefficiency and the information loss.

This isn’t about what Amazon “owes”. Amazon isn’t using any California resources to do what it does, so why should it pay California taxes for it? UPS or FedEx pays the registration fees, the highway and gasoline taxes, etc. to pay for the roads they use, what has Amazon used that they need to pay for? This is just another excuse for robbing taxpayers by holding up yet another manufactured “victim”.

I’ll pay the tax because I have no choice, but I still choose to shop in the manner that makes the most efficient use of my time and resources. And when Amazon opens those warehouses in my area and starts offering same-day delivery, those local merchants are going to be very sorry they thought they could win by making allies with liberal politicians rather than increasing their own efficiency or getting taxes lower for everybody. Whenever you do that, everybody looses except the politicians.

Socratease on November 25, 2012 at 6:31 PM

itsnotaboutme on November 25, 2012 at 5:53 PM

*applause*

Yup, it can happen. It’s happened to me a few times here too (but not by trolls). Long live HA.

petefrt on November 25, 2012 at 6:32 PM

I bought a book for my mom and had it delivered to her in PA. 6% tax was indicated.

disa on November 25, 2012 at 6:35 PM

This argument is bogus. I have no doubts there is a program out there that will calculate sales tax down to the town. If there is not a program, some entrepreneur will make one. Another commenter claims states are not cooperative in sharing what their sales tax rates are. That is bull. I am trying to imagine the person calling to ask and the state revenue department denying the information.

duggersd on November 25, 2012 at 5:32 PM

Sorry, but you obviously have not thought about this problem and have not investigated the implications. Revenue departments don’t share info with those who don’t pay them: call a few dozen states and local governments and try it yourself, if you don’t believe me. Information services which try to furnish sales tax rates quickly collapse, because there is no authoritative answer to the question “How many taxing entities are there?”: every locality, every school district, and numerous “special districts” can play. Consequently, there is no way to make sales tax based on “destination sourcing” feasible for any but the largest business, and it may not be feasible for them, either.

FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD HAVE TO TAKE OVER ALL BUSINESS TAXATION:
Besides the data acquisition problem, there is an insurmountable legal problem: getting 100,000+ taxing entities to accept your calculations and filings as legal. This would require federal legislation which usurps all state laws and appoints a few “winners” to serve as the sales tax gatekeepers, who are protected federally against suits by taxing entities, and who can charge whatever they want, and who can autonomously impose whatever rules they want on all merchants with no checks and balances or appeals. Do you really want a single government-chartered entity to have a stranglehold on all business? Do you really think any such arrangement could be made Constitutional?

A TAX GATEKEEPER SERVICE WOULD BE PROHIBITIVELY EXPENSIVE:
Assuming that a “tax gatekeeper” could actually be created, one early estimate of these costs (which I believe is way too low) is something on the order of $1500-$3000 per month, per terminal (or internet equivalent): this would have the same effect on an on-line business as requiring a “brick and mortar” business to triple the number of sales clerks!! Since there is no way to recover these costs, the sales model collapses, and the only Internet businesses which would survive are those which are branches of Walmart-size corporations who have a nationwide presence.

ALTERNATIVES HAVE OTHER PRACTICAL PROBLEMS:
In contrast, taxing sales at the seller’s location (as we do with “brick and mortar” businesses) would be feasible….except for the fact that it is extremely hard to determine where that location is by any consistently-applied set of rules. If this solution were to be imposed, businesses will immediately relocate to low-tax and no-tax locations…or other countries.

THE WHOLE IDEA IS ANTI-AMERICAN:
Basically, the idea of requiring a seller situated in one state to pay taxes to another state is incompatible with the idea of a federal republic with State Sovereignty.

landlines on November 25, 2012 at 6:38 PM

Firefly_76 on November 25, 2012 at 3:46 PM

There are plenty conservatives that work @ Wal-Mart…me for instance.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 25, 2012 at 6:43 PM

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