Earthshaking Mars Curiosity discovery probably not so earthshaking

posted at 6:31 pm on November 25, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

Earlier this week some exciting sounding news came out of NASA. The Curiosity Rover was continuing with planned soil and atmosphere experiments on the red planet when one of their engineers let a tidbit slip in front of an NPR reporter. But they weren’t ready to say exactly what they’d found.

“We’re getting data from SAM as we sit here and speak, and the data looks really interesting,” John Grotzinger, the principal investigator for the rover mission, told NPR. “The science team is busily chewing away on it as it comes down.”

“This data is gonna be one for the history books. It’s looking really good,” he said, cryptically.

But as excited as NASA and Grotzinger are by the data coming in from Curiosity, the space agency says it will be several weeks before it can announce what it has, well, unearthed.

This led to a ton of speculation, much of which had me sitting on the edge of my seat. More cautious outlets were focusing on the first results from the Sample Analysis at Mars (SAM) testing. Perhaps it had found some of the signatures of compounds required for organics in the Martian soil. Or methane in the atmosphere, which could signal very interesting reactions taking place. And of course the more wild eyed were wondering if perhaps there was some sign of the big “L word.” The Examiner went so far as to wonder if maybe Curiosity had turned over a fossil.

Alas, in an update over the weekend, it looks like NASA is seeking to lower the expectations.

When a NASA official said last week data from an instrument on the Mars Curiosity rover suggested something “for the history books,” many people thought an announcement was imminent of the possible discovery of life on the Red Planet — until the space agency began to seriously backpedal on the story.

It may be a case of once bitten twice shy as NASA has been through this before — a hotly anticipated and heavily hyped bit of news that only disappoints in the end…

“It won’t be earthshaking but it will be interesting,” said spokesperson Guy Webster of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

NASA’s caution is understandable; it has been through this before.

That article goes on to list some of the greater misfires of NASA announcements, many of which went on to be criticized after thorough review. But I’m still holding out hope for something good here. No, I’m not expecting fossils or little green men, but it would be nice to know if there’s any subsurface activity going on there. We may still get to the point where we’ll be exploring some of the lava tubes on the planet which aren’t exposed to surface conditions and who knows what we’ll find there?

It may still wind up being fossils. Or at least I’d like to hope so.


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Martian crypto-paramecium favor Obama 51-49%?

profitsbeard on November 25, 2012 at 6:34 PM

I’m tellin’ ya… Mars had a war with the now non-existent fifth planet but Mars won by blowing it up (and causing the asteroid belt) but the shock ripped the atmosphere from Mars destroying the civilization in the process… the survivors colonized Earth.

Skywise on November 25, 2012 at 6:38 PM

They found 200Mil new votes for future democrats.

NapaConservative on November 25, 2012 at 6:38 PM

The White House quashed a NASA report that Barack Obama’s ego extends all the way out to Mars.

hepcat on November 25, 2012 at 6:39 PM

So, we went from this:
.

“We’re getting data from SAM as we sit here and speak, and the data looks really interesting,” John Grotzinger, the principal investigator for the rover mission, told NPR. “The science team is busily chewing away on it as it comes down.”

“This data is gonna be one for the history books. It’s looking really good,” he said, cryptically.

.
. . . . . to this:
.

“It won’t be earthshaking but it will be interesting,” said spokesperson Guy Webster of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

.
.
This makes me very angry . . . . . very angry, indeed.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:44 PM

NASA could always just say what it is they ‘think’ they discovered — and supplement with ‘subject to further testing’ disclaimers. Then they could clarify later on rather than dangling this garbage out like a carrot in front of the ‘I Want To Believe’ jackasses.

The very same jackasses hyping this stuff out relentlessly like little girls full of squee over their favorite Teen heartthrob — only they have no idea if their Teen heartthrob even actually exists.

HotAir.com — Guaranteed Soft & SquishyOr Your Money Back

FlatFoot on November 25, 2012 at 6:44 PM

The real killer of Nicole Brown Simpson?

dforston on November 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM

They found 200Mil new votes for future democrats.

NapaConservative on November 25, 2012 at 6:38 PM

.
Thread winner !

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM

They found a rock on which the following was written:

“↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → A B Start”

MunDane68 on November 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM

And of course the more wild eyed were wondering if perhaps there was some sign of the big “L word.”

Lesbians on Mars?

Midas on November 25, 2012 at 6:46 PM

You also have to remember that scientists *always* think their own research is super-awesome. They probably aren’t the best judge of how historic their own findings are.

David Shane on November 25, 2012 at 6:46 PM

The real killer of Nicole Brown Simpson?

dforston
on November 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM

.
Well, heck . . . . . if that’s the direction we’re going to go, why not Elvis, Amelia Earhart, and Jimmy Hoffa?

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:48 PM

They found the Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator.

Electrongod on November 25, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Well, Tesla was pretty right about the whole thing until he summoned and Old One and it ate his soul.

MunDane68 on November 25, 2012 at 6:50 PM

NASA has a lot of people who are very emotionally invested in proving life beyond earth. For them, it is like a religious crusade. They believe that such a discover would usher in a new progressive age.

keep the change on November 25, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Lesbians on Mars?

Midas on November 25, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Well, Mars Needs Women

Dang, does this mean they haven’t found my keys?

rbj on November 25, 2012 at 6:51 PM

NASA is seeking to lower the expectations for the prospect of muslim-outreach from the Curiosity mission – NO evidence has been found that muslims have ever inhabited Mars.

Pork-Chop on November 25, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Now it can be told: “Fast and Furious files found on Mars!”

GarandFan on November 25, 2012 at 6:54 PM

They found Jimmy Hoffa, but, after a few calls from the Teamsters, SEIU, UAW, and Trumka NASA “decided” to dial down the excitement.

M240H on November 25, 2012 at 6:54 PM

These idiots are going to lose what little support there is left for the space program.

VorDaj on November 25, 2012 at 6:54 PM

The preceding comments are all outstanding in their wit, intelligence, and originality. Congratulations Hot Air commenters. You’re the best.

Old Country Boy on November 25, 2012 at 6:55 PM

Well, heck . . . . . if that’s the direction we’re going to go, why not Elvis, Amelia Earhart, and Jimmy Hoffa?

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:48 PM

Because Amelia Earhart is in cryogenic stasis in the Delta Quadrant. Don’t you know anything? :)

Shump on November 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM

I should have thought of this earlier:

The Russian Cosmonauts that supposedly went “off trajectory”, and were lost in space?

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM

…the rest of Hillary’s Rose Law Firm records?

M240H on November 25, 2012 at 6:59 PM

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:48 PM

.
Because Amelia Earhart is in cryogenic stasis in the Delta Quadrant. Don’t you know anything? :)

Shump on November 25, 2012 at 6:56 PM

.
I never watched that series, but the plot of that episode sounds great. . : )

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 7:02 PM

Obama’s Birth Certificate.

Electrongod on November 25, 2012 at 7:03 PM

NASA is seeking to lower the expectations for the prospect of muslim-outreach from the Curiosity mission – NO evidence has been found that muslims have ever inhabited Mars.

Pork-Chop on November 25, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Oh come on, you know the “Palestinians” were there first, and the National Association of Semitic Astronauts are just trying to steal it.

M240H on November 25, 2012 at 7:05 PM

I hope that didn’t need a sarc tag…

M240H on November 25, 2012 at 7:05 PM

Salutations Earthlings:

You don’t have to go to Mars to realize NPR is a spurious transmission.

viking01 on November 25, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Angel Dust?

Ugly on November 25, 2012 at 7:10 PM

They found some Velveeta that is 20,000 years old and it looks like it was made yesterday.

viking01 on November 25, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Gosh, you mean the polly anna egotists at JPL overplayed their hand AGAIN?

Say it ain’t so. I’m ever so surprised!

Mr Galt on November 25, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Biden announces speech where a two planet solution will be offered; NASA cautions against viability of plan

BobMbx on November 25, 2012 at 7:13 PM

A spine for the GOP “leadership”?

SouthernGent on November 25, 2012 at 7:13 PM

“It won’t be earthshaking but it will be interesting,”

I am wondering if it will even reach the interesting level.

sharrukin on November 25, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Twinkie? Al Gore DNA? BOTH?

Ugly on November 25, 2012 at 7:17 PM

Noah’s Ark? The Arc of the Covenant?

EliTheBean on November 25, 2012 at 7:20 PM

As I’ve said before…
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN… prepare to be underwhelmed!

Glenn Jericho on November 25, 2012 at 7:25 PM

NASA has a lot of people who are very emotionally invested in proving life beyond earth. For them, it is like a religious crusade. They believe that such a discover would usher in a new progressive age.

keep the change on November 25, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Ah, that’s what they think, but not what would be. There would be a big push to go into space, which is literally the final frontier. Progressivism only “works” when there is a captive population, who cannot remove themselves to some frontier somewhere. Once space is open to us, humans can always leave soft tyrannies behind to rot, while re-discovering over and over again the merits of hard work, faith, the free market, and building voluntary institutions as a mediator between peoples in a larger society.

Sekhmet on November 25, 2012 at 7:30 PM

This stuff is always overhyped and underwhelming.

dczombie on November 25, 2012 at 7:31 PM

They didn’t find Marvin’s Illudium P36 Explosive Space Modulator.

RickB on November 25, 2012 at 7:36 PM

It’s one hoax after another with these people. It’s not just that the administrators over there are a bunch of fruitcakes who overslept the Heaven’s Gate comet rendevous, which they might be, but much of it was fraud to get more funding to keep themselves employed. It’s not much different than the climate hoaxers in that way, cept the goverment space crackpots are playing on the emotion of hope to line their pockets while the Gorebots are playing on the emotion of fear.

Buddahpundit on November 25, 2012 at 7:37 PM

A spine for the GOP “leadership”?

No. They’re looking for intelligent life.

andycanuck on November 25, 2012 at 7:37 PM

Evidence of global warming wiping out ancient Martian civilization.

The good news for NASA is, the evidence is anything they want it to be.

Just like here on Earth.

Greg Toombs on November 25, 2012 at 7:47 PM

They’re going to reveal that it’s an old baby doll that says “MaMa!”

and then the scientist who looks most like Charlton Heston will well “DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!!”

Tom Servo on November 25, 2012 at 7:54 PM

I’m pretty sure it’s going to be nothing but head fakes from NASA from here on out.

Pretty much all we want out of them is colorized photos of various nebulae anyway. Seems like we’re paying a bit too much for that.

TexasDan on November 25, 2012 at 7:55 PM

It’s all done with mirrors anyway….

/S

viking01 on November 25, 2012 at 7:56 PM

(Sigh) and so the search for the Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator must continue…

jon1979 on November 25, 2012 at 7:59 PM

This is gonna be YOOOOJ!

forest on November 25, 2012 at 8:00 PM

NASA has a lot of people who are very emotionally invested in proving life beyond earth. For them, it is like a religious crusade. They believe that such a discover would usher in a new progressive age.

keep the change on November 25, 2012 at 6:50 PM

There may be some of that. But for a lot of them it’s simply a chance to be a part of what would most likely be one of the biggest scientific discoveries in all of human history. To usher in the bold new progressive age, the alien life would have to be somewhat more impressive than fossilized Martian microbes.

You also have to remember that scientists *always* think their own research is super-awesome. They probably aren’t the best judge of how historic their own findings are.

David Shane on November 25, 2012 at 6:46 PM

^This x1000. When you get as deep into the scientific weeds as some of these people get, you can lose perspective. For example, I’m sure all of you remember where you were and what you were doing about 20 years ago when a certain British mathematician solved what was then the most famous unsolved math problem in history.

You remember him, right? I mean, he’s as famous as Newton and Einstein. Right? And it directly changed our day to day life in so many ways that you spent hours listing them to you relatives at the Thanksgiving dinner table ;-)

Yeah, I thought so. ;-)

Somebody at NASA saw a reading on a spectrometer that said there was now officially a chance that some trace chemicals that could possibly be the result of microbial life, among many other causes, might possibly show up in the soil.

JimLennon on November 25, 2012 at 8:03 PM

While you guys clown around about this, I’m going to make a couple of serious predictions here.

1) liquid H20
2) Deuterium
3) Tritium
4) Methane

SWalker on November 25, 2012 at 8:04 PM

It’s almost impossible to believe that science journalism, of all things, is even dumber than it was in the days when such as Dan Rather and Barbara Walters sat astride the dissemination of all information.

Every data blip is heuristically prepackaged and reduced to a conclusive zinger to be hurled a la Lanier, nevermind that never in the history of science of any field has there been a cathartic “discovery” as the reading public is trolled with almost every other week.

HitNRun on November 25, 2012 at 8:05 PM

They probably found a Stuckey’s and some Mouseketeer ears.

viking01 on November 25, 2012 at 8:07 PM

Dang, does this mean they haven’t found my keys?

rbj on November 25, 2012 at 6:51 PM

As in “Help me find my keys and we’ll drive out.”?

itsacookbook on November 25, 2012 at 8:12 PM

Somebody at NASA saw a reading on a spectrometer that said there was now officially a chance that some trace chemicals that could possibly be the result of microbial life, among many other causes, might possibly show up in the soil.

JimLennon on November 25, 2012 at 8:03 PM

I’m going to go with it being less likely that they have found trace chemicals that could possibly be the result of microbial life and more likely they have found a surprising abundance of either trace metals or fuel precursors.

Yes, I used to work with a bunch of these guys, their not all as crazy about finding life or the fossilized remains of life as most people here think. But they are pretty damned crazy about finding something that they can use as a financial incentive or justification for a manned mission to Mars.

What they most want to find is a way to produce fuel on Mars so that they can justify a Mars Express or Mars Semi-express styled mission to Mars. In other words, what they really want to find is something that will kick off a Mars “Gold Rush”

SWalker on November 25, 2012 at 8:14 PM

I’m pretty sure it was tall rectangular block which sent a piercing signal straight to Jupiter…

viking01 on November 25, 2012 at 8:18 PM

NASA is seeking to lower the expectations for the prospect of muslim-outreach from the Curiosity mission – NO evidence has been found that muslims have ever inhabited Mars.

Pork-Chop on November 25, 2012 at 6:52 PM

So not true. Were there any industry there? Agriculture? Any live Jews there? These are all clear signs of a great Muslim civilization.

Archivarix on November 25, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Obama’s Birth Certificate.

Electrongod on November 25, 2012 at 7:03 PM

…nope!…the birth certificates of almost all of the Republican pundits!

KOOLAID2 on November 25, 2012 at 8:35 PM

We found dirt, and it proves evolution.

The Rogue Tomato on November 25, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Better chance at finding life on Europa. I hope someone goes there soon.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 25, 2012 at 8:55 PM

It’s “These data are gonna.” “These data.”

(Posted for the English professor at HA whose name I can’t remember at the moment.)

viking01 on November 25, 2012 at 9:08 PM

They got a glimpse of the turtle stack.

Demonized on November 25, 2012 at 9:18 PM

Why don’t we examine the evidence ? On earth, there’s lots of life (and death). Ever seen a peacock ? clownfish ? a newborn baby ? Victoria Falls ? etc.

On Mars and the moon – it’s a wasteland.

in other words, don’t hold your breath on finding life anywhere other than earth.

Any questions ?

williampeck1958 on November 25, 2012 at 10:03 PM

NASA is seeking to lower the expectations for the prospect of muslim-outreach from the Curiosity mission – NO evidence has been found that muslims have ever inhabited Mars.

Pork-Chop on November 25, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Not true! Mars is our first second third holiest site, after Jerusalem Al Quds and Mecca! We demand that all infidels pay immediate jizya. Same goes for Venus, Mercury, and all the others too.
/s

bofh on November 25, 2012 at 10:08 PM

They found a rock on which the following was written:

“↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → A B Start”

MunDane68 on November 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM

Ikea on Mars!

Shy Guy on November 25, 2012 at 10:21 PM

They can’t announce if they found life on Mars yet, because they have to make sure it is 22 weeks old first.

cptacek on November 25, 2012 at 10:48 PM

They found a rock on which the following was written:
“↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → A B Start”
MunDane68 on November 25, 2012 at 6:45 PM

Thread winner owner

Except it’s B A B A, and you forgot Select so that it’s 2 player :)

321mdl on November 25, 2012 at 10:49 PM

This makes me very angry . . . . . very angry, indeed.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:44 PM

This made me laugh very hard … very hard, indeed.

hawkdriver on November 25, 2012 at 10:52 PM

While you guys clown around about this, I’m going to make a couple of serious predictions here.

1) liquid H20
2) Deuterium
3) Tritium
4) Methane

SWalker on November 25, 2012 at 8:04 PM

1 would be cool, but not entirely unexpected.

2 and 3 would excite a lot of us science geeks, but would be met with a giant “Huh?” and a shrug from the rest of the world.

4 would be…interesting. Get ready for a lot of “Who farted on Mars?” jokes.

JimLennon on November 25, 2012 at 11:08 PM

The stack of turtles dig hydrogen dioxide.

wolly4321 on November 25, 2012 at 11:12 PM

Whatever you do,,, DON’ T press the red button.

wolly4321 on November 25, 2012 at 11:23 PM

Once space is open to us, humans can always leave soft tyrannies behind to rot…

After we take off and nuke them from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

drunyan8315 on November 25, 2012 at 11:40 PM

Very reliable sources within NASA say that they thought they had found the last shreds of integrity of the Washington Post Editorial Board, but on further examinition it was just methane.

drunyan8315 on November 25, 2012 at 11:46 PM

The rover’s hubcaps are missing?

trigon on November 26, 2012 at 12:08 AM

Better chance at finding life on Europa. I hope someone goes there soon.

DeathtotheSwiss on November 25, 2012 at 8:55 PM

I think something will tell us not to go there…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010:_Odyssey_Two

ChuckTX on November 26, 2012 at 12:48 AM

A dirty towel and a copy of The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Anti_anti on November 26, 2012 at 1:39 AM

NO evidence has been found that muslims have ever inhabited Mars.

Pork-Chop on November 25, 2012 at 6:52 PM

I think we just found our next NASA mission: Building Space Camp Guantanamo.

BemusedMalkinite on November 26, 2012 at 3:28 AM

Given that it’s NASA we’re talking about, I think they’ll break the news that they’ve discovered iron oxide in the Martian soil. Earth Mars shattering.

Mojave Mark on November 26, 2012 at 7:37 AM

Turns out, Mars sea levels have bee retreating for the last four years.

Jeffster on November 26, 2012 at 8:05 AM

williampeck1958 on November 25, 2012 at 10:03 PM

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Of course their is life out there. The universe is a vast place and to think that this is the only planet that has it smacks of Dark Ages dogma(How selfish is it to believe that some higher power made the vast universe, and yet we are the only ones in it and this planet the only place life exists). The fact that moon never had life and is a wasteland doesn’t mean the same for Mars. Mars has an atmosphere and at one time was temperate enough to have running water. If it had (or does have, as there is evidence of it) liquid water, then chances are it had life (granted not intelligent and maybe only microbial). We are finding life forms that exist in places on this planet that we never believed could sustain life. It is entirely possible(and probable) that life will be in places in the solar system (and universe) that we would never think possible.

Wolftech on November 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM

“Why did you turn your planet into a spaceship?”
“Because it’s cool.”

ZK on November 26, 2012 at 8:34 AM

Wolftech on November 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM

The belief that life appeared from nonlife is the stupidest idea mankind every pooped out.

Akzed on November 26, 2012 at 9:03 AM

Of course their is life out there. The universe is a vast place and to think that this is the only planet that has it smacks of Dark Ages dogma

Yeah, being kind to others and living an honest life is just SO middle-ages.

We should be more like you liberals and join the 21st century by lying, cheating and stealing.

Kingfisher on November 26, 2012 at 9:03 AM

Climate change? (it’s everywhere!)

Peri Winkle on November 26, 2012 at 9:14 AM

Of course their is life out there. The universe is a vast place and to think that this is the only planet that has it smacks of Dark Ages dogma Wolftech on November 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM

Yeah, being kind to others and living an honest life is just SO middle-ages. We should be more like you liberals and join the 21st century by lying, cheating and stealing. Kingfisher on November 26, 2012 at 9:03 AM

Notice the certainty, wholly without proof and contrary to reason. Sounds downright religulus.

Akzed on November 26, 2012 at 9:25 AM

This stu

ff is always overhyped and underwhelming.

dczombie on November 25, 2012 at 7:31 PM

That’s because some innocuous statement comes out, and the MSM jumps and exaggerates and the public eats it up…they are not “overhyping” the press is over stating, and the public loves it, they accept inaccurate reporting and poor journalism…gee, I wonder how Obama got elected??

right2bright on November 26, 2012 at 9:29 AM

Notice the certainty, wholly without proof and contrary to reason. Sounds downright religulus.

Akzed on November 26, 2012 at 9:25 AM

Go easy on him. It’s the marijuana talking.

Kingfisher on November 26, 2012 at 9:37 AM

Actually, the Earth-shattering news is that the curiosity rover landed in this guy’s flower bed and boy, is he pissed:

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2422315008/tt0056775

Kingfisher on November 26, 2012 at 9:41 AM

All their hype is about the money. Keep the NASA funding and grants coming folks and we’ll ply you with lies.

Christian Conservative on November 26, 2012 at 10:30 AM

Mayan Calendar Part Deux?

Fogpig on November 26, 2012 at 10:42 AM

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 6:44 PM

I see what you did there.

Ikea on Mars!

Shy Guy on November 25, 2012 at 10:21 PM

Umm, no. Not even close. In one version of the “two kinds of people” line, you’re clearly in the “non-” group.

Freelancer on November 26, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Obama’s original Martian birth certificate…

Colony14 on November 26, 2012 at 1:21 PM

Bigfoot

hip shot on November 26, 2012 at 1:57 PM

That’s because some innocuous statement comes out, and the MSM jumps and exaggerates and the public eats it up…they are not “overhyping” the press is over stating, and the public loves it, they accept inaccurate reporting and poor journalism…gee, I wonder how Obama got elected??

right2bright on November 26, 2012 at 9:29 AM

For them, I think it’s more about the Benjamins. I’m not sure they are innocent of hyping. For the public, it’s probably fun to imagine we’re the old republic, going to the moon and stuff, putting flags down on unclaimed planets. Good times.

Not that Shepherd Smith isn’t jumping up and down about discovering extraterrestrial life for the 500th time — not arguing with that.

Axe on November 26, 2012 at 2:46 PM

If it had (or does have, as there is evidence of it) liquid water, then chances are it had life (granted not intelligent and maybe only microbial). We are finding life forms that exist in places on this planet that we never believed could sustain life. It is entirely possible(and probable) that life will be in places in the solar system (and universe) that we would never think possible.

Wolftech on November 26, 2012 at 8:14 AM

You have a new and interesting way of using “chances are” and “probable.”

Axe on November 26, 2012 at 2:56 PM

Bigfoot

hip shot on November 26, 2012 at 1:57 PM

What do The Pyramids have to do with anything? :)

That’s right. Squatch built. I can’t say more without tripping Echelon — I’ll just point out that no human can stack bricks like that.

Axe on November 26, 2012 at 3:00 PM

I’ll just point out that no human can stack bricks like that. Axe on November 26, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Akzed on November 26, 2012 at 4:52 PM