Sentenced to ten years. In church.

posted at 7:01 pm on November 24, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

I keep seeing these stories from time to time where judges hand down “creative” sentences to criminals. These cases seem intended to either prove a point, instill some sort of additional lesson – either to the convict or the public – or simply avoid locking up as many people. This story from Oklahoma may raise more questions than answers, though.

Mike Norman is an Oklahoma district court judge known for sentencing offenders to attend church as part of probation agreements. Still, the sentence he handed down this week was notable both for its length and the age of the offender. On Tuesday, Norman sentenced 17-year-old Tyler Alred to a 10-year deferred sentence after he plead guilty to manslaughter. Among the stipulations of the sentence — that Alred attend church for 10 years.

There aren’t a lot of particulars on the case available, beyond noting that Alred is 17 years old and was found to be driving while intoxicated at the time of the accident which killed a passenger in the car. It’s a serious charge, so perhaps ten years might have been appropriate, but he apparently won’t be serving any of it. Instead, he will need to keep his nose clean and attend church every week.

Leaving aside for the moment the question of whether or not this is fair “punishment” for the crime in question, does the order to attend church each week have the potential to do anything positive, either for the convict or society at large? And is this even constitutional?

As to the first count, I’m willing to concede the possibility that some really amazing things can take place during church services. Perhaps Alred will listen to the word of God during sermons and achieve some sort of revelation. Possibly just the environment – spending time in the company of better folk with higher goals – could rub off on him, providing him with positive role models. But it hardly seems a sure thing. The most benefit to come from spending time in a house of worship would seem to me to come to those who seek out that type of solace and support on their own. You must come willingly, or so I would take it from John 5: 39 – 43. Going and sitting in church probably looks like a much better option than sitting in a prison cell, but is it accomplishing what the Judge seems to wish?

And to the second point, regardless of what your feelings are about the concept of separation of church and state, should a judge be able to force someone into church? Doesn’t that kind of violate the 1st Amendment?

I understand and sympathize more than some folks when it comes to some forms of creative sentencing. Forcing a minor offense scofflaw to wear a sign proclaiming their stupidity or lack of civility to their neighbors actually might prove more of a lesson to some people than a fine or a short stretch in the county lock-up. Making youthful offenders do work to benefit those who they harmed (in minor cases) in full public view might turn somebody’s life around. But this was a ten year sentence in the Crowbar Motel for manslaughter being put on hold and replaced with one hour per week in the pews. I’m just not sure if this works. What do you think?


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Not Reverend Wright’s Church?

We have seen what happens when someone spends 20 years there.

Electrongod on November 24, 2012 at 7:08 PM

I would choose prison.

:(

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on November 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM

And to the second point, regardless of what your feelings are about the concept of separation of church and state, should a judge be able to force someone into church? Doesn’t that kind of violate the 1st Amendment?

Doesn’t being sent to prison violate the right to bear arms, and the freedom of assembly?

sharrukin on November 24, 2012 at 7:10 PM

Doesn’t being sent to prison violate the right to bear arms, and the freedom of assembly?

sharrukin on November 24, 2012 at 7:10 PM

Bingo. Your Constitutional rights are made forfeit once you’ve been found guilty of a crime.

Stoic Patriot on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Faith, devotion and worship should not be a form of punishment.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Faith, devotion and worship should not be a form of punishment.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Either should a baby.
But….

Electrongod on November 24, 2012 at 7:15 PM

Bingo. Your Constitutional rights are made forfeit once you’ve been found guilty of a crime.

Stoic Patriot on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

But somebody might be forced to listen to a sermon!

Oh, the humanity!

sharrukin on November 24, 2012 at 7:16 PM

This kind of stupidity is why the Right lost the Culture War.

Is the judge a cousin of Todd Akin?

Good grief.

Rule of Law, anyone?

Bruno Strozek on November 24, 2012 at 7:20 PM

What if the Church is not willing to accept and abide his presence?

As for the 1st Amendment… it’s a restriction on Congressional action. It does not grant you Rights… or restrict them. That’s usually left to the Courts; and here you are.

But still, you are assuming the Judge is forcing him to attend Church as a way to improve the miscreant. Perhaps it’s just another modern leftist Judge who thinks this is a worse punishment!

It wouldn’t surprise me.

Mr Michael on November 24, 2012 at 7:20 PM

Since no one knows the particulars of the case, it’s not reasonable to make a judgement regarding whether this was right or wrong on the part of the judge. Could be the kid is a member of that church who has been delinquent. Could be his parents are members of that church and see it as a way to get him back in line. … or none of the above. Since we don’t know, it’s not reasonable to judge what the judge did. Particularly given the sourcing for the story.

AZfederalist on November 24, 2012 at 7:21 PM

What if some future judge decides to sentence someone to attend a mosque?

xdwall on November 24, 2012 at 7:23 PM

Didn’t judges also tell the convicted they can choose the Army, or prison? At least then the right to bear arms isn’t being violated.

sharrukin on November 24, 2012 at 7:26 PM

If the kid was unwilling to attend church, he’d have a 1st Amendment argument. But if he agrees to it (and assuming there’s no objection from the prosecutor or victim’s family) then that’s a moot point.

rbj on November 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM

I saw this online a few days ago. First, he was under the limits for DUI,but he is a minor so he was treated as a DUI. He has to be monitored he has to do pubic service and do talks with kids about DUI and that a friend was killed in this accident.He was already had been a church going kid and was given a choice to this or go to jail

JustHugh on November 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM

Faith, devotion and worship should not be a form of punishment.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

…he’s hoping it will turn into the first three you just mentioned…but then…there is this…

What if some future judge decides to sentence someone to attend a mosque?

xdwall on November 24, 2012 at 7:23 PM

KOOLAID2 on November 24, 2012 at 7:34 PM

It would help to read the source for Jazz’s quote, rather than the link he provided.

Here it is:
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/11/oklahoma-judge-sentences-teen-to-church-for-10-years/

Now, what’s different? Let’s try the first sentence:

Anybody who knows Oklahoma District Court Judge Mike Norman probably yawned at the news that he’d sentenced a teen offender to attend church as part of his probation arrangement, and that the judge’s pastor was in the courtroom at the time.

So the arrangement had been made as part of the probation negotiations. Now, is it legal?

Lets go to someone else who apparently interviewed the participants:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/20/tyler-alred-sentenced-to-church-oklahoma-judge-defends_n_2162593.html

Norman said he didn’t believe his sentence would pass a legal challenge — but he doesn’t believe either side will seek an appeal.

“Both families were satisfied with the decision,” Norman said in an interview. “I talked to the district attorney before I passed sentence. I did what I felt like I needed to do.”

In order to challenge the constitutionality of the church attendance requirement, an individual or organization must show that it has legal standing to do so. Kiesel said the ACLU is considering what options they have.

So, for those who take umbrage at this sentence, know that the ACLU is trying to be on the case.

unclesmrgol on November 24, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Rule of Law, anyone?

Bruno Strozek on November 24, 2012 at 7:20 PM

He had the choice of doing his time in prison.

Freedom of choice.

Rebar on November 24, 2012 at 7:36 PM

was given a choice to this or go to jail

JustHugh on November 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM

Now, if that were the case, I’d say that the 1st Amendment definitely kicks in. As the Judge himself says, he doesn’t think his sentence would pass Constitutional muster, but that neither side in the case, nor apparently the victim’s parents, have a problem with his decision.

unclesmrgol on November 24, 2012 at 7:38 PM

…I wonder if Quotes of the day is going to be under a hundred comments tonight?

OT/Sorry gopher girl…Michigan State missed the mandatory weekly field goal…but our runner Bell wanted to go to some lowly Bowl game this week…we needed to qualify.

KOOLAID2 on November 24, 2012 at 7:40 PM

There isn’t a single decent Romney supporter on Hot Air except for bluegill.

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 7:41 PM

KOOLAID2 on November 24, 2012 at 7:40 PM

Could be under 100.

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 7:41 PM

So long as any state is allowed to get so creative, I don’t see a huge problem here. If you don’t like christian church services you shouldn’t live in Oklahoma anyway.

ernesto on November 24, 2012 at 7:45 PM

Church or prison? Church.

Mosque or prison? Mosque. Although I’d probably be asked by the Mosque leaders not to return.

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 7:46 PM

Mosque or prison? Mosque. Although I’d probably be asked by the Mosque leaders not to return.

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 7:46 PM

Walk in eating a porkchop.

rbj on November 24, 2012 at 7:49 PM

So long as any state is allowed to get so creative, I don’t see a huge problem here. If you don’t like christian church services you shouldn’t live in Oklahoma anyway.

ernesto on November 24, 2012 at 7:45 PM

On any given Sunday only about 22% of the population in Oklahoma is in church.

What’s your point?

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 7:51 PM

How does this protect society? The purpose of prison is first and foremost, to shield society from being victimized again. Some people can’t be trusted to be free. I don’t think this judge understands that.

keep the change on November 24, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Life imitates art, it seems. From The Club of Queer Trades by G. K. Chesterton:

He talked more like a priest or a doctor, and a very outspoken one at that. The first thrill was probably given when he said to a man who had attempted a crime of passion: “I sentence you to three years imprisonment, under the firm, and solemn, and God-given conviction, that what you require is three months at the seaside.” He accused criminals from the bench, not so much of their obvious legal crimes, but of things that had never been heard of in a court of justice, monstrous egoism, lack of humour, and morbidity deliberately encouraged.

njcommuter on November 24, 2012 at 7:54 PM

Freedom of choice.

Rebar on November 24, 2012 at 7:36 PM

The judge has no business giving a “choice”.

That’s why we have “Rule of Law”.

Sharia, Oklahoma style?

Maybe next time a choice of jail or face “clan justice”?

If I was a scumbag legal beagle who had lost cases like this and my punk a$$ clients were in the Big House I’d be filing those appeals with the rooster come Monday morning.

Bruno Strozek on November 24, 2012 at 7:54 PM

Faith, devotion and worship should not be a form of punishment.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Excellent point!

JetBoy on November 24, 2012 at 8:06 PM

DUI Manslaughter is a felony and felony convictions typically involve the loss of some rights, a fine and / or prison time.

The kid would be nuts to appeal the sentence and risk doing time in an Okie state pen as an alternative.

He got off lightly.

CorporatePiggy on November 24, 2012 at 8:15 PM

i thinks its worse to see the ND players kneeling.

those naive boys don’t know they’ve been sold down the river.

renalin on November 24, 2012 at 8:21 PM

GO Trojans. Strike down the 666 beast.

renalin on November 24, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Bingo. Your Constitutional rights are made forfeit once you’ve been found guilty of a crime.

Stoic Patriot on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

No.

Dante on November 24, 2012 at 8:25 PM

Well, if you read the text of the Amendment …

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

… it limits Congress. Not federal judges.

OhioCoastie on November 24, 2012 at 8:28 PM

The “Get Tough on Crime” crowd may enjoy longer prison sentences for almost every criminal….but the sad reality lies in the unforeseen negative consequences.

A prison sentence is often…………….in many cases….a first-rate Prison Education.

First-time offenders often learn and hone their Prison Education skills into a well-developed craft, often leading to future repeat violations and follow up crime.

In addition, a Prison Education causes further dependence on the ever-expanding Statist, Welfare State. The prisoner eventually leaves jail with a first-rate Prison Education and he cannot find any employer who will hire him (or her) due to his SSN having a prison record on his resume. It will take a long time (if ever) for that prison record to be dropped off the charts for potential employers.

Meanwhile, what is the former prisoner supposed to be doing in the meantime?

How in the world can the former prisoner (who in my example has already served his “time in jail”) find a job?

The sad result is that former prisoners often go into deeper drug dependency and ultimately qualify for both Medicare and Medicaid eligibility due to their status of being “disabled.” I have seen this firsthand from my experience in Health care facilities.

My point is not to argue to “go soft” on prisoners.

But rather, my point, is how does the State punish a criminal….without encouraging future dependence on the victim’s family (due to higher taxation on the victim’s family in the form of increased government social services)?

I welcome creative measures that are:

a.) constitutional
b.) are Just and Moral
c.) and involve some form of Restitution to the victim’s family
d.) and do not encourage a future pattern of continuing dependence on the State’s social services

Point c.) above may be a tough challence.

But that is why the late Charles Colson of Prison Fellowship spoke so passionately about encouraging the idea of Restitution and Prison Reform.

To ignore this point, is just to encourage future dependence on the State.

56andwarmweather on November 24, 2012 at 8:32 PM

The ACLU is wrong, again, the judge didn’t sentence Tyler Alred to a belief in anything, judge Norman’s sentence is for Tyler to sit there. If some moral cognizance sinks in that would be just awful.

Speakup on November 24, 2012 at 8:32 PM

Bingo. Your Constitutional rights are made forfeit once you’ve been found guilty of a crime.

Stoic Patriot on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

No.

Dante on November 24, 2012 at 8:25 PM

Actually it is true. You aren’t allowed to keep and bear arms in prison, nor do you have the freedom of assembly, or the freedom of association.

sharrukin on November 24, 2012 at 8:36 PM

OhioCoastie on November 24, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Quit clogging up this thread with logic, damnit!

/

massrighty on November 24, 2012 at 8:38 PM

I agree that if he objects, he probably will go up the river. He’s better off pleading for forgiveness on his knees in front of the Lord. I don’t know if it’s consititutional or not, but I’d take that over hard time.

Philly on November 24, 2012 at 8:39 PM

Getting sentenced to Church is worst than prison. You have to get up early on a Sunday, get stuck tooth and jowls with a bunch of fat hypocritical losers, listen to BS fairy tales about a useless unfeeling “god” construct and his gay zombie son than get begged continually for cash for fat cat pederast. No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Your Mamma loves me on November 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM

No.

Dante on November 24, 2012 at 8:25 PM

wow.

dmacleo on November 24, 2012 at 8:42 PM

No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Quite the confession.

tom daschle concerned on November 24, 2012 at 8:43 PM

The judge has no business giving a “choice”.

Bruno Strozek on November 24, 2012 at 7:54 PM

Such ignorance, our justice system is replete with choices.

Rebar on November 24, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Getting sentenced to Church is worst than prison. You have to get up early on a Sunday, get stuck tooth and jowls with a bunch of fat hypocritical losers, listen to BS fairy tales about a useless unfeeling “god” construct and his gay zombie son than get begged continually for cash for fat cat pederast. No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Your Mamma loves me on November 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM

I noticed your interesting, yet fallacious use of Ad Hominem argumentation……

None of which is true from my many years of church experience.

56andwarmweather on November 24, 2012 at 8:45 PM

I’m a Christian but don’t place much stock in this. It’s more a stunt or a gimmick than anything.

The BTK killer attended church every week, faithfully. The police were able to track him down because he used a church computer to send out one of his taunting notes to cops.

Someone in my church attended the same church weekly. One day, he opened up the newspaper to see a photo of the guy who sat in front of him each Sunday in church. The guy had been arrested for molesting kids at the school he worked for.

Sitting in church weekly is not the same as trusting Christ as Savior, which is the only thing that can lead to true change.

Your Mamma loves me on November 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM

There are also “fat hypocritical” losers among Non Christians, so your point is pretty stupid.

All you ever do is troll threads that mention religion (specifically, Christianity). You should have been banned by now, unless the atheist co host, AP, finds you amusing for some reason.

TigerPaw on November 24, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Correction:
“Someone in my church”

Should be,
“someone in my family”

TigerPaw on November 24, 2012 at 9:01 PM

Such ignorance, our justice system is replete with choices.

Rebar on November 24, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Yup. Manslaughter is just like speeding – thirty dollars or thirty days…

C’mon over to my neighborhood and see how “restorative justice choices” are working out.

Watch out for the crack dealers and the syringes on the boulevard, though…

Bruno Strozek on November 24, 2012 at 9:12 PM

I’m watching “Sergeant York” on TV right now with Gary Cooper.

“Gimme that ole-time religion..gimme that ole-time religion..gimme that ole-time religion..it’s good enough for me!”

If it is good enough for Alvin York, it is good enough for Mr. Alred.

Among his accomplishments, York showed what can be done with one 1911, some ammo, grit, poise, practice, and the Hand of God guiding every shot thru the huns.

Church will do him good, and I’m sure he’ll be a BETTER man because of it.

Let’s hope he picks a church that ain’t sissified and has great Dogma instead of one of them there Catholic parishes where all the lady-folk want to hold your during the Lord’s Prayer. My first time at one parish in Alabama (still missionary territory), this absolutely enchanting lady and sacrisant made her move on me. She was passionate, beautiful, kind, and…..

married.

POINT: Even if Alred goes to church, don’t think the Devil can’t get to him there too.

Gotta go. The part where lightning hits Alvin is on now.

KirknBurker on November 24, 2012 at 9:12 PM

I’m a Christian but don’t place much stock in this. It’s more a stunt or a gimmick than anything.

The BTK killer attended church every week, faithfully. The police were able to track him down because he used a church computer to send out one of his taunting notes to cops.

Someone in my church attended the same church weekly. One day, he opened up the newspaper to see a photo of the guy who sat in front of him each Sunday in church. The guy had been arrested for molesting kids at the school he worked for.

Sitting in church weekly is not the same as trusting Christ as Savior, which is the only thing that can lead to true change.

Excellent point.

I think the last part of Matthew 26 and also the Book of 1 John 2: 3 – 19 proves your good point too.

56andwarmweather on November 24, 2012 at 9:12 PM

I hope he doesn’t snore.

OldEnglish on November 24, 2012 at 9:29 PM

OhioCoastie on November 24, 2012 at 8:28 PM

.
Quit clogging up this thread with logic, damnit!

/

massrighty on November 24, 2012 at 8:38 PM

.
You sound like Dilbert’s “pointy-haired” boss. (except, he wasn’t being sarcastic)

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:31 PM

I hope he doesn’t snore.

OldEnglish on November 24, 2012 at 9:29 PM

.
… Or “flatulate”.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:33 PM

No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Your Mamma loves me

I’m guessing it’s the anal rape that appeals to you.

xblade on November 24, 2012 at 9:36 PM

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:33 PM

Stop it!!!

I died laughing when I saw this comment!!!

56andwarmweather on November 24, 2012 at 9:38 PM

… Or “flatulate”.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:33 PM

Heh, indeed! Spoiling it for those who want to be there.

OldEnglish on November 24, 2012 at 9:38 PM

You sound like Dilbert’s “pointy-haired” boss. (except, he wasn’t being sarcastic)

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Ha!
That’s kind of where I was going – and I was reinforcing OhioCoasties excellent point – people keep misreinterpretating the Amenments. All you need to do is read them, and see the breadth of what they don’t apply to.

massrighty on November 24, 2012 at 9:46 PM

… Or “flatulate”.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:33 PM

Confucius say: He who fart in church sit in own pew.

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 9:52 PM

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:31 PM

.
Ha!
That’s kind of where I was going – and I was reinforcing OhioCoasties excellent point – people keep misreinterpretating the Amenments. All you need to do is read them, and see the breadth of what they don’t apply to.

massrighty on November 24, 2012 at 9:46 PM

.
Yes, indeed.

And do I ever enjoy Scott Adams work! : )

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:55 PM

You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 9:56 PM

This is what MP3 players are for.

Dan_Yul on November 24, 2012 at 9:58 PM

… Or “flatulate”.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:33 PM

.
Confucius say: He who fart in church sit in own pew.

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 9:52 PM

.
You just gave me an idea about where that term “pew” might have come from.

I’d never thought of that, before.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:59 PM

You just gave me an idea about where that term “pew” might have come from.

I’d never thought of that, before.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:59 PM

“probably from Old French puie, balcony,”

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 10:06 PM

Yup. Forcing someone to attend church is very extreme and cruel.

It’s more humane for this little punk to rot in the penitentiary while Bubba preaches a weekly stiff sermon to his rectum.

And speaking of penitentiary, a little etymology, perfessor:

Penitentiary, n – From Middle English penitenciarie, episcopal prison; from Latin paenitentia, penitence, [see penitent].

I’ll take church. Thank you, Sir.

locomotivebreath1901 on November 24, 2012 at 10:21 PM

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 9:59 PM

.
“probably from Old French puie, balcony,”

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 10:06 PM

.
Learned something new, there.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 10:39 PM

Unless this is a left-wing church, this poor man could be exposed to hate speech such as marriage being between a man and a woman!!!

DavidW on November 24, 2012 at 11:44 PM

Disbar this piece of shit judge.

Dave Rywall on November 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM

Getting sentenced to Church is worst than prison. You have to get up early on a Sunday, get stuck tooth and jowls with a bunch of fat hypocritical losers, listen to BS fairy tales about a useless unfeeling “god” construct and his gay zombie son than get begged continually for cash for fat cat pederast. No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Your Mamma loves me on November 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Well, because you are perfect, and not a sinner, church would certainly be lost on you. You’re execused, but there will be a test.

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2012 at 12:02 AM

Disbar this piece of shit judge.

Dave Rywall on November 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM

Why?

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2012 at 12:03 AM

Why?

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2012 at 12:03 AM
——

For not doing his job.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:09 AM

Disbar this piece of shit judge.

Dave Rywall on November 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM
.

Why?

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2012 at 12:03 AM

.
For not doing his job.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:09 AM

.
Watch out, Dave. The “Spanish Inquisition” might gitcha’.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 12:44 AM

In addition, a Prison Education causes further dependence on the ever-expanding Statist, Welfare State. The prisoner eventually leaves jail with a first-rate Prison Education and he cannot find any employer who will hire him (or her) due to his SSN having a prison record on his resume. It will take a long time (if ever) for that prison record to be dropped off the charts for potential employers.

Not always… as with most things, it depends on the individual. My son was convicted of B&E at a number of bars in North Dakota. He did his time (3+ years), got out, worked fast food/construction jobs for a while, then was a bartender for a bit… proved himself, and is now working the oil rigs, making +80k/year.

I know… in ND, they’re desperate for workers and will overlook quite a bit. However, prior to his current job on the rigs, he had already proven himself to be rehabilitated. (He was a bartender, with cash counting and closing responsibilities, before the oil boom really took off in ND).

So if someone really *wants* to change their life around, they can.

dalewalt on November 25, 2012 at 12:46 AM

Getting sentenced to Church is worst than prison. You have to get up early on a Sunday, get stuck tooth and jowls with a bunch of fat hypocritical losers, listen to BS fairy tales about a useless unfeeling “god” construct and his gay zombie son than get begged continually for cash for fat cat pederast. No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Your Mamma loves me
on November 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM

.
Save that for the “fairy tale, useless, unfeeling God”, when you’re finally face to face with him.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 12:50 AM

felons and folks plea bargaining give up their constitutional rights when they break the law. Whether the judge can force someone to attend church isn’t something i’d guess at, but if he can’t it’s not because of 1st amendment protections. This kid has had due process and can be legally sentenced to many things which are not constitutional for a free citizen.

For example, if I am convicted of cyber-bullying, I could lose the right to access computers for a year. IF I’m not convicted no one has a right to tell me where i can express myself (e.g. the internet in this case)

WashingtonsWake on November 25, 2012 at 12:51 AM

The ACLU is wrong, again, the judge didn’t sentence Tyler Alred to a belief in anything, judge Norman’s sentence is for Tyler to sit there. If some moral cognizance sinks in that would be just awful.

Speakup on November 24, 2012 at 8:32 PM

That’s what they, and the other non-believers here, are afraid of. If not, they wouldn’t be putting up such a stink about it. Kind of like the silence from them when a judge sentences a person to wear a sign and parade around with it on a street corner for a day. But add a Bible verse to it or something and WOW, that is something they are against. Now, why is that?!

Sterling Holobyte on November 25, 2012 at 1:17 AM

Disbar this piece of shit judge.

Dave Rywall on November 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM

For not doing his job.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:09 AM

Dave Rywall reminds me of the unhinged, self-righteous and self-important, psychologically dysfunctional Richard Dawkins. Did Dave Rywall miss the following?

Norman said he didn’t believe his sentence would pass a legal challenge — but he doesn’t believe either side will seek an appeal.

“Both families were satisfied with the decision,” Norman said in an interview. “I talked to the district attorney before I passed sentence. I did what I felt like I needed to do.”

What is it with so many hysterically angry and unpleasant atheists, anyway? It’s like they’re putting on a clown show every time they start ranting about religion and “the God delusion”! :)

Anti-Control on November 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM

Bruno Strozek on November 24, 2012 at 9:12 PM

I don’t know what you’re going on about, but plea dealing is exceedingly common and has been for a long time.

It’s like they’re putting on a clown show every time they start ranting about religion and “the God delusion”! :)

Anti-Control on November 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM

Clown show is right, and they’re enormous hypocrites – each one of them would have taken the deal rather than go to jail, and they know it, which drives them berserk.

Rebar on November 25, 2012 at 2:02 AM

This would only be considered punishment if Tylor Alred was an atheist. (haven’t read the article but maybe he was?) ;-)

SauerKraut537 on November 25, 2012 at 2:18 AM

On any given Sunday only about 22% of the population in Oklahoma is in church.

What’s your point?

davidk on November 24, 2012 at 7:51 PM

That 80%+ of Oklahoma is Christian? Duh.

Now, what’s your point?

TheDriver on November 25, 2012 at 4:25 AM

Getting sentenced to Church is worst than prison. You have to get up early on a Sunday, get stuck tooth and jowls with a bunch of fat hypocritical losers, listen to BS fairy tales about a useless unfeeling “god” construct and his gay zombie son than get begged continually for cash for fat cat pederast. No thanks prison is much more life affirming and better then “church”.

Your Mamma loves me on November 24, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Damn, AllahPundit is posting under different names?

TheDriver on November 25, 2012 at 4:27 AM

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Agreed. You can lead a horse to water . . .

BigAlSouth on November 25, 2012 at 6:47 AM

dalewalt on November 25, 2012 at 12:46 AM

What an inspiring story! Best wishes to your son.

:)

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on November 25, 2012 at 7:04 AM

“Sounds like” this commentary is another attack on religion,
that is, anything religious that is not related to islam.

We see a lot of little stories like this in the news. This
is how it starts. Christians did this. Religion can’t or should
not do this or that. Jews did it. etc. etc. Christians didn’t vote for Romney! Its their fault we have Obama.

Especially at this time of year when the war against putting up
nativities ramps up.

Or, the point could be against judges giving light sentences,
or a “no no” against underaged drinking. Or, no point at all.

I vote for the latter.

Amjean on November 25, 2012 at 7:44 AM

Faith, devotion and worship should not be a form of punishment.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

I think the wording in the headline is misleading. It shouldn’t be stated that he was sentenced to 10 years of weekly church attendance. The offender in this case it seems, had the opportunity to totally avoid genuine punishment. The young man received a 10 year deferred sentence, on the condition that he attend church. He actually received no punishment at all. Hopefully, considering what the alternative could have been for him, he’s joyfully leaping out of bed on Sunday mornings and is thanking Jesus for coming to his rescue. :-)

lynncgb on November 25, 2012 at 9:08 AM

Disbar this piece of shit judge.

Dave Rywall on November 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM

For not doing his job.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:09 AM

Dave Rywall reminds me of the unhinged, self-righteous and self-important, psychologically dysfunctional Richard Dawkins. Did Dave Rywall miss the following?

Norman said he didn’t believe his sentence would pass a legal challenge — but he doesn’t believe either side will seek an appeal.

“Both families were satisfied with the decision,” Norman said in an interview. “I talked to the district attorney before I passed sentence. I did what I felt like I needed to do.”

What is it with so many hysterically angry and unpleasant atheists, anyway? It’s like they’re putting on a clown show every time they start ranting about religion and “the God delusion”! :)

Anti-Control on November 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM
——

Only a f*cking moron would believe that a judge has the power to impose religion on a US citizen as part of a sentence.

Oh, wait – that’d be you.

The kid deserves to go to jail, so the Christian activist as*hole judge should do his job instead of being an obnoxious missionary.

He should be removed from the bench.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 9:51 AM

“Sounds like” this commentary is another attack on religion,
that is, anything religious that is not related to islam.

We see a lot of little stories like this in the news. This
is how it starts. Christians did this. Religion can’t or should
not do this or that. Jews did it. etc. etc. Christians didn’t vote for Romney! Its their fault we have Obama.

Especially at this time of year when the war against putting up
nativities ramps up.

Or, the point could be against judges giving light sentences,
or a “no no” against underaged drinking. Or, no point at all.

I vote for the latter.

Amjean on November 25, 2012 at 7:44 AM
——-

1
If the judge was Muslim and had sentenced Alred to 10 weeks at a mosque, your little head would have exploded

2
If Alred was Muslim and the judge said ten weeks of church and Alred said fine, I’ll do my time at a mosque, your little head would have exploded

3
The only non-stupid thing you said was” the point could be against judges giving light sentences”

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 9:51 AM

You are crazed with anger, and take your humorless self and your unintelligent opinions far too seriously. Are you self-aware enough to comprehend what I’m saying? Are you an alcoholic, eh? lol

Is it your goal, or job, to make HA visitors like me take you unseriously and laugh at you? Well, whether you’re trying to be such an entertaining jack-off or not, thanks for your contributions to the cause! :)

Anti-Control on November 25, 2012 at 10:16 AM

1
If the judge was Muslim and had sentenced Alred to 10 weeks at a mosque, your little head would have exploded

2
If Alred was Muslim and the judge said ten weeks of church and Alred said fine, I’ll do my time at a mosque, your little head would have exploded

3
The only non-stupid thing you said was” the point could be against judges giving light sentences”

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Lighten up a$$hat!

Amjean on November 25, 2012 at 10:37 AM

Disbar this piece of (expletive) judge.

Dave Rywall on November 24, 2012 at 11:47 PM

.

Why?

unclesmrgol on November 25, 2012 at 12:03 AM

.
For not doing his job.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:09 AM

.

The kid deserves to go to jail, so the Christian activist (expletive) judge should do his job instead of being an obnoxious missionary.

He should be removed from the bench.

Dave Rywall
on November 25, 2012 at 9:51 AM

.
You know the news is . . . . . and now, the rrrrrest of the story.
.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 11:04 AM

You know the news is . . . . . and now, the rrrrrest of the story.
.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 11:04 AM

———

“The judge could have sent Alred to jail but, instead, taking into account his clean criminal and school records, sentenced him to wear a drug and alcohol bracelet, participate in counseling groups and attend a church of his choosing – weekly. He must also graduate from high school.”

The judge has ZERO RIGHT TO IMPOSE RELIGION ON A U.S. CITIZEN

The judge has ZERO RIGHT TO FORCE A U.S. CITIZEN TO ATTEND HIGH SCHOOL

The end.

Get your head out of your ass and read your own constitution.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 11:16 AM

They are so cute when they selectively care about the constitution.

tom daschle concerned on November 25, 2012 at 11:35 AM

The judge has ZERO RIGHT TO IMPOSE RELIGION ON A U.S. CITIZEN

The judge has ZERO RIGHT TO FORCE A U.S. CITIZEN TO ATTEND HIGH SCHOOL

The end.

Get your head out of your ass and read your own constitution.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 11:16 AM

.
Not sure what you mean by “force”.

It was the kid’s fault that he had his “options in life” narrowed down, like that.

The kid, and his attorney didn’t have to agree to “church and school”.

I don’t believe the Defense was too angry with the option presented by the judge, either.

Only yourself, and the other resident atheist activists are.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 11:55 AM

Not sure what you mean by “force”.

It was the kid’s fault that he had his “options in life” narrowed down, like that.

The kid, and his attorney didn’t have to agree to “church and school”.

I don’t believe the Defense was too angry with the option presented by the judge, either.

Only yourself, and the other resident atheist activists are.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 11:55 AM
——-

The judge doesn’t have the right or power to put finishing high school or going to church on the table.

You don’t get it.

That’s okay.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Norman said he didn’t believe his sentence would pass a legal challenge — but he doesn’t believe either side will seek an appeal.

“Both families were satisfied with the decision,” Norman said in an interview. “I talked to the district attorney before I passed sentence. I did what I felt like I needed to do.”

What is it with so many hysterically angry and unpleasant atheists, anyway? It’s like they’re putting on a clown show every time they start ranting about religion and “the God delusion”! :)

Anti-Control on November 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM

Hi, devout Roman Catholic here. *raises hand* And I agree with Dave. The judge should be disbarred.

A judge has no right to impose a sentence he believes would not pass a legal challenge, regardless of whether or not the two sides are likely to seek an appeal. The judge is admitting outright to doing something he knows would be overturned as unconstitutional on appeal. For that he deserves to be removed from the bench.

And I also agree with Dave that if the judge had sentenced the young man to spend the next year attending a mosque, heads would explode, including mine. That, to me, is all the proof I need that “go to church” should not be a valid sentencing option.

Shump on November 25, 2012 at 2:46 PM

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 11:55 AM

.
The judge doesn’t have the right or power to put finishing high school or going to church on the table.

You don’t get it.

That’s okay.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 12:06 PM

.
Yes he does.

Yes, I do.

What the judge did was Contitutionally okay.

You could try contacting this young man, to ask him how upset, insulted, and oppressed this judges decision makes him feel.
.
Also, I think we should sentence YOU to church. Not just any church, either. You should be sentenced to one of those “Hallelujah-Pentecostal-Charismaniac-foot stomping, hand-clapping” churches !

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 3:45 PM

Yes he does.

Yes, I do.

What the judge did was Contitutionally okay.

You could try contacting this young man, to ask him how upset, insulted, and oppressed this judges decision makes him feel.
.
Also, I think we should sentence YOU to church. Not just any church, either. You should be sentenced to one of those “Hallelujah-Pentecostal-Charismaniac-foot stomping, hand-clapping” churches !

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 3:45 PM
——-

“Contitutionally okay”

Uh, no.

Muslim judge sentences man to attend Mosque.

Hotair cries like a thousand babies/implodes.

And the convicted’s opinion is irrelevant.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 4:03 PM

“Constitutionally okay” (my apologies for the misspelling)

Uh, no.

Muslim judge sentences man to attend Mosque.

Hotair cries like a thousand babies/implodes.

And the convicted’s opinion is irrelevant.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 4:03 PM

.
God is alive, and works. Allah is not, and does not.

The “convicted’s opinion being irrelevant” only pertains to the Judges sentencing. If the Judge provides an option of choices, then the convicts opinion matters.

The Founding Fathers wanted Christianity to influence the new American Government they had instituted. They worked hard to be denominationally neutral, as pertains to the various churches. They were not “religion neutral”, as pertains to other religions besides Christianity, including atheism.

This country IS founded on Christianity, and NOT “religious neutrality”.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 4:47 PM

Hi, devout Roman Catholic here. *raises hand* And I agree with Dave. The judge should be disbarred.

A judge has no right to impose a sentence he believes would not pass a legal challenge, regardless of whether or not the two sides are likely to seek an appeal. The judge is admitting outright to doing something he knows would be overturned as unconstitutional on appeal. For that he deserves to be removed from the bench.

And I also agree with Dave that if the judge had sentenced the young man to spend the next year attending a mosque, heads would explode, including mine. That, to me, is all the proof I need that “go to church” should not be a valid sentencing option.

Shump on November 25, 2012 at 2:46 PM

Judges have a lot of discretion, more than you seem to realize. “disbarred”? That is ridiculously extreme, even if you don’t agree with his decision.

How about this: until/unless it gets overturned on appeal, I’ll leave it to people like you worry about what the judge did!

Anti-Control on November 25, 2012 at 8:25 PM

God is alive, and works. Allah is not, and does not.

The “convicted’s opinion being irrelevant” only pertains to the Judges sentencing. If the Judge provides an option of choices, then the convicts opinion matters.

The Founding Fathers wanted Christianity to influence the new American Government they had instituted. They worked hard to be denominationally neutral, as pertains to the various churches. They were not “religion neutral”, as pertains to other religions besides Christianity, including atheism.

This country IS founded on Christianity, and NOT “religious neutrality”.

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 4:47 PM
————-

A judge attempting to impose religion on a citizen through sentencing is beyond f*cking absurd.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 10:40 PM

listens2glenn on November 25, 2012 at 4:47 PM

.
A judge attempting to impose religion on a citizen through sentencing is beyond f*cking absurd.

Dave Rywall on November 25, 2012 at 10:40 PM

.
An atheist expressing defiance of the Intelligent Designer in every way he/she can, is beyond absurd.

Repeating what I said above:

The Founding Fathers wanted Christianity to influence the new American Government they had instituted. They worked hard to be denominationally neutral, as pertains to the various churches. They were not “religion neutral”, as pertains to other religions besides Christianity, including atheism.

This country IS founded on Christianity, and NOT “religious neutrality”.

listens2glenn on November 26, 2012 at 1:14 AM