Do you really want a democratic China?

posted at 1:01 pm on November 24, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

This popped up in the headlines section earlier, but given current events it’s certainly something to consider as we wrestle with foreign policy questions in the coming months and years. Jan Hornat put forward the idea that Chinese democracy as a political model for the world’s other economic superpower probably wouldn’t be any better than the Guns and Roses album of the same name. Or, as she put it, Chinese Democracy is No Goal.

Democratization would upgrade China’s political power and credibility in the international community. The United States and the European Union would forego the leverage of confronting China about its policies, as China’s laws would be the result of a popularly elected government.

New problems, which could destabilize democracy, might appear. For example, would Tibet and Xinjiang attempt to breakaway? How would privatization of state firms and redistribution of land proceed? What would North Korea do in the midst of losing its only ally? If Chinese democracy could not meet growth rates of authoritarian China, how would the Chinese public react?

Like Western-style democracies, a democratic China may repudiate its non-interventionist doctrine and be more assertive in pursuit of its interests. How would the United States react to a Chinese “coalition of the willing”? Democratic or not, China would still depend on a growing amount of natural resources and territorial disputes in the South China Sea would continue to disrupt regional security.

First of all, I don’t think we’re in any imminent “danger” of China suddenly experiencing a popular uprising and turning democratic. If it didn’t happen after Tiananmen Square, it doesn’t look like it’s going to come about in the next generation. Also, the Chinese government has been extremely effective for many decades in keeping a sufficient number of the correct people completely beholden to the interests of the state and dependent upon its largess. Their control of the flow of information to the masses outside of the major cities also keeps them in a fairly secure position.

But the warnings cited about China can, in a larger sense, be transferred to any number of places around the globe. If the past decade has shown us anything, it should be that democracy isn’t a plant which grows equally well in all soils. And even when it does seem to pop up – either on its own or through intervention – it has a propensity to grow a bit wild, in hard to predict fashions. We ostensibly have an elected democracy in Iraq now, but it still manages to bear very little resemblance to Texas, oil supplies aside. “The people” rose up in Egypt recently to oust a dictator and take back the power for the great, unwashed masses. How’s that working out so far? I seem to recall somebody from the previous President’s administration saying something about democracy being “messy” …

Democracy simply for democracy’s sake isn’t much of a goal if history is to be any guideline. And China is a huge, complicated and frankly dangerous puzzle. At this point a stable China is, as I see it, a far preferable option compared to the alternative. We need to keep a close eye on them, but their future is in their own hands.


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DarkCurrent will be by soon, to educate all of you how wonderful China is.

She is the “model for the world”, from his, Krugman, Obama and other elitists’ perspective.

Never mind the peasants there and the ones who hate communism, and the cages millions dwell in. Even in Hong Kong families sleep in shifts…the flats/beds are that tiny.

Beem there, seen it. They can have it.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:06 PM

Look at the bright side. If the peeps vote like here then a 1% margin in the polls would be HUGE. Fertile ground for poll-of-the-day HA.

Limerick on November 24, 2012 at 1:07 PM

Do you really want a democratic China?

Err… how about letting the Chinese decide?

1215 on November 24, 2012 at 1:07 PM

as China’s laws would be the result of a popularly elected government.

Egypt, Russia, India, Venezuela are all “popularly elected gov’s”.

Meh, see Egypt, yes, you Barack Hussein Obama, you Sharia lover of the world.

In India leprocy flourishes, contrary to what the UN tells you. Millions of Indians leave that squaller, come to the US…and vote for Obama. Bigger morons the world has never seen.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:08 PM

India is the most populated democracy in the world. Only 1% pay taxes. The rest dwell in the dust/mud/latrines.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:09 PM

Ed,

Like is typical of Intelligentsia types, the goal is what matters not the road that is travelled to get there. The man on the street does not matter in a consideration of whether to have representative government even if it improves his lot in life. Its whether the antagonist is worse or better off.

Was the Germany of 1937 more stable than the Germany of 1927? Yep. By a long shot. But how did that work out?

Shame on you Ed.

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

It would seem to me that we should always want for any people the ability for them to be more in command of their own destiny. Yes, even if it is messy. The KEY is to be well armed and ready to deter if things get too messy.

Warner Todd Huston on November 24, 2012 at 1:16 PM

The smart, rich Chinese are leaving China at an accelerated rate……
The curve in our local school district has taken a huge hit from the influx of Chinese people.
The parents are ambitious and driven. The kids are scary smart and disciplined.
My kids complain that the Chinese kids make them look “bad”…..

The asians should be the new voters that the Republicans should go after.
Forget the blacks – the hispanics my still be able to be turned.

Every black person should go see the movie “Lincoln” – it was the crazy Republicans
who pushed the 13th Amendment and later Grant fought back the KKK…..

I saw it last night and heard gasps when the democrats of the time were fighting the 13th Amendment…..people don’t know history…..

redguy on November 24, 2012 at 1:17 PM

Shame on you Ed.

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

Ed did not write…

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:18 PM

That word…democracy…simply does not mean what too many think it means.

The United States is not a Democracy.

No. It is not.

It is a Republic.

A “democracy” in China would have the same effect as “democracy” had when Yugoslavia fell apart. Too many factions, too many ethnicities, too much bad blood over the centuries.

War Lords will be making a comeback…and soon…once the Communist Party of the Peoples Republic of China is made no longer relevant.

So…yeah…let’s foster democracy in China…demand it…make democracy in China the new cornerstone of our total foreign and national policy.

Then, sit back and watch as, brick by bloody brick, what we once knew as China descends into the dark abyss also once known as China.

Think Wal-Mart has a problem today?

Just wait until the new and improoved Chinese democracy sweeps across the land.

coldwarrior on November 24, 2012 at 1:19 PM

Democracy is a concept, not a guarantee of success. The govt. still has to be trying to do good or it’s no different than any other tyranny! The choice of a democracy, to follow terrorist ideals, must be defeated & all followers must die. When you chose to vote for death and war, you have to live or die, with the results of your vote!

http://www.paratisiusa.blogspot.com

God Bless America!

paratisi on November 24, 2012 at 1:19 PM

Shame on you Ed.

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

Shame on you. Jazz Shaw wrote this piece.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 1:20 PM

redguy on November 24, 2012 at 1:17 PM

The Chinese are the most leftist voters of all the foreigners, in spite of their ‘smarts’. Makes them very dumb, actually.

You’re right on “don’t know history”. Schools don’t teach history, on purpose. It’s all propaganda, and it pays.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:21 PM

coldwarrior, glad to ‘see’ you back.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:21 PM

At this point I think I need someone to define Democracy to me.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:22 PM

O/T:

Many of you are stressed. I can tell. What I have found as a great stress reducer is to listen to Brazilian Bird sounds while jumping on a trampoline.

Just thought I would share.

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM

That word…democracy…simply does not mean what too many think it means.

The United States is not a Democracy.

No. It is not.

It is a Republic.

coldwarrior on November 24, 2012 at 1:19 PM

She’s a constitutional Republic…alas, she was. The former is being decimated and the latter too…just a matter of time. The aim is to go popular democracy…

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM

coldwarrior on November 24, 2012 at 1:19 PM

I second Schadenfreude comment, I hope you are recovering quickly and completely.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM

At this point I think I need someone to define Democracy to me.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:22 PM

Democracy occurs when the media tells us what to think by revising facts to accord well with their agenda.

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:24 PM

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM

Hmmmm, I could be wrong but I’ll bet both of those would be a tad problematic to round up. But it does sound fun.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:25 PM

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:24 PM

Do all the leaders in Democracies and U.S. Republics get to do what they damn well please? Are media initiated halos, the norm or the exception.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:26 PM

Hmmmm, I could be wrong but I’ll bet both of those would be a tad problematic to round up. But it does sound fun.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:25 PM

hehe. I forgot to mention that it could be stressful just trying to buy a trampoline around the holidays. (:

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM

I need someone to define Democracy to me.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:22 PM

It’s always when the mob rules, Cindy…while said mob is lied to and exploited, so the Looters rule.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM

It’s none of our business.

MoreLiberty on November 24, 2012 at 1:28 PM

Democracy means little without the protection of individual and minority rights, so while it’s certainly preferable to have a government that is popularly elected and accountable to the people until that society respects the rights of those that they disagree with there will still be tyranny.

roryn00 on November 24, 2012 at 1:30 PM

A “democracy” in China would have the same effect as “democracy” had when Yugoslavia fell apart. Too many factions, too many ethnicities, too much bad blood over the centuries. coldwarrior on November 24, 2012 at 1:19 PM

Isn’t that pretty much what we have to deal with in the Mid East. I guess the U.S. doesn’t get enough on one clan to promote the continued in-fighting. Not to worry though, presidents that pit their constituency against one another seems to be a new and exciting feature.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:30 PM

Their control of the flow of information to the masses outside of the major cities also keeps them in a fairly secure position.

On any given day average person in China probably knows more about what’s going on in the US than the other way around Jazz.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

It would wind up being as Democratic as Venezuela.

kingsjester on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

Why did the French Revolution fail..and the American Revolution succeed?

The French demanded democracy…complete and total democracy…and the Reign of Terror ensued, and a new “king” and a new orthodoxy was swept in under the name of Napoleon, who was neither a democrat nor French.

We opted for a republic, as Benjamin Franklin admonished…if we can keep her.

coldwarrior on November 24, 2012 at 1:32 PM

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM

Maybe you could go to a neighbors house, sounds like a real icebreaker. Just turn up with your boom box with Brazilian Bird sounds and you have yourself the makings of a real party or police visit. But it’s worth a try.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Shame on you Ed.

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

You tell him, Dr. Cat.

Ronnie on November 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

I’ll bet. Most of our folks love blissful ignorance and those who want to know don’t trust the media. How is the news media viewed there?

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Ronnie on November 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Excellent! I hope he/she didn’t give up commenting over the mix up. I’ve confused the authors myself.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:36 PM

Yes I want Chinese democracy, if by democracy you mean a representative government, rights of dissent, rule of law and separation of powers. Chinese are not arabs. I don’t see any reason to fear the Chinese Communist Party losing power in China.

Ted Torgerson on November 24, 2012 at 1:37 PM

On any given day average person in China probably knows more about what’s going on in the US than the other way around Jazz.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

Of course they do. I’m certain every bad thing that happens in the US is broadcast far and wide about the connected part of China to make sure the people don’t aspire to such an evil outcome.

So, the question is, on any given day, how much does the average person in China know what is going on in China?

AZfederalist on November 24, 2012 at 1:43 PM

The Chinese in Taiwan managed to make democracy work.

Just saying.

Rebar on November 24, 2012 at 1:44 PM

Also, the Chinese American government has been extremely effective for many decades in keeping a sufficient number of the correct people completely beholden to the interests of the state and dependent upon its largess. Their control of the flow of information to the masses outside of the major cities government also keeps them in a fairly secure position

…change a few words!

KOOLAID2 on November 24, 2012 at 1:45 PM

Democracy isn’t the same as mob rule. There’s been plenty of dictatorships where the dictator is clearly favored by the majority of the people. Democracy is rule of law including in particular protection of human rights and periodic fair elections to change the government.

Egypt as a democracy is a worthwhile cause. The problem is that democracy isn’t easy and it is quite hard to imagine how it could work if large part of the population is illiterate. The failure in Egypt is not that democracy is a wrong goal, but that Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi do not have democracy as a goal.

I believe that if China were a democracy it would become much more powerful than what it is. Coupled with an actual free market system (what they have is ironically pretty much exactly what certain guys in Germany had in mind in the thirties) and pretty soon we’d be wanting to learn Mandarin. A democratic China probably didn’t always do what we wanted. I doubt they’d let Tibet go without some fight (see Spain and Catalonia), but it would be infinitely preferable to some semi-fascist state where a small clique of old men ultimately decide policy with even less accountability we have in democracies.

kittysaidwoof on November 24, 2012 at 1:46 PM

Also, the Chinese American government has been extremely effective for many decades in keeping a sufficient number of the correct people completely beholden to the interests of the state and dependent upon its largess. TheirThe Main Stream Media, serving as the propaganda arm of the democrat party, controls of the flow of information to the masses outside of the major cities government also keeps them in a fairly secure position

…change a few words!

KOOLAID2 on November 24, 2012 at 1:45 PM

One slight additional tweak.

AZfederalist on November 24, 2012 at 1:48 PM

No, I want a totalitarian China armed to the teeth with nukes ready to blow us off the earth when we don’t pay our debt back.

bgibbs1000 on November 24, 2012 at 1:50 PM

A democracy is two foxes and a chicken deciding
what to have for lunch .

Lucano on November 24, 2012 at 1:52 PM

China already has fake democracy. They elect the people’s congress for crying out loud. It’s the party leadership they can’t control. In effect they are as free as we are.

not sure what the point of this article is.

bingsha on November 24, 2012 at 1:53 PM

I’ll bet. Most of our folks love blissful ignorance and those who want to know don’t trust the media. How is the news media viewed there?

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:35 PM

With some distrust of course. But people aren’t as clueless as generally supposed.

This is a good article, points 1 and 3 particularly.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:54 PM

On any given day average person in China probably knows more about what’s going on in the US than the other way around Jazz.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

You really are naive about the way propaganda works.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 1:54 PM

Constitutional Republic?

90% of the American citizenry couldn’t tell you what that even means.

But sorry Democracy is at least a TASTE of Freedom, and worlds better than dicatatorship. But you also need a free press, and free religion and other things like private property rights. Throwing Democracy out there just so American companies can go and make profits with more open governments isn’t the only thing it takes to make an AMERICAN style republic successful.

All a moot point though. By the time China becomes free, we won’t be.

China is the style of totalitarianism that he left has fond dreams about.

PappyD61 on November 24, 2012 at 1:54 PM

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Lolz. Good idea. I’ll do it.

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:54 PM

BTW I happen to have experience living in a tyranny and have also experienced the emergence of democracy. I remember well those useful idiots who alternatively tried to claim that what we had was already a democracy or that we prefer it like that. Making democracy work isn’t easy and since you never get all you want everybody will always have some reason for disappointment, but it is still categorically better than the alternative.

BTW I doubt that China would become a two party system as there is no organised force that could become the second party. First past the post system in this background wouldn’t work and would only result in the Communists getting plurality every time due to superior organisation.

kittysaidwoof on November 24, 2012 at 1:57 PM

On any given day average person in China probably knows more about what’s going on in the US than the other way around Jazz.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

I would submit to you that the middle class American has more resources to find out about what is going on in either America or China than the middle class Chinese has about both of those topics.

We aren’t blocked from accessing information by our own Government. We don’t have a Great Firewall — yet.

unclesmrgol on November 24, 2012 at 2:00 PM

Ed,

Like is typical of Intelligentsia types, the goal is what matters not the road that is travelled to get there. The man on the street does not matter in a consideration of whether to have representative government even if it improves his lot in life. Its whether the antagonist is worse or better off.

Was the Germany of 1937 more stable than the Germany of 1927? Yep. By a long shot. But how did that work out?

Shame on you Ed.

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

That’s exactly why we should be wary. People get pitched democracy as a cure-all salve for their problems, and when it doesn’t make them all rich (or even crashes the economy) the masses knee-jerk reaction is to go back to even more authoritarianism.

To apply this to your Nazi Germany metaphor, it would’ve been infinitely better for everyone if the Kaiser hadn’t been removed after WWI.

pauljc on November 24, 2012 at 2:03 PM

So, the question is, on any given day, how much does the average person in China know what is going on in China?

AZfederalist on November 24, 2012 at 1:43 PM

You really are naive about the way propaganda works.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 1:54 PM

DC is a sino-propagandist, sometimes in subtle disguise.

Btw, the food is good in Egypt, Argentina, Russia, Venezuela, India and etc. It’s also good in China and Japan. For that matter, there is good food everywhere, even in Afghanistan.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM

Wait until the Chinese government starts down the entitlement road …

darwin on November 24, 2012 at 2:06 PM

A democracy is two foxes and a chicken deciding
what to have for lunch .

Lucano on November 24, 2012 at 1:52 PM

Thread closed :)

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 2:08 PM

DC is a sino-propagandist, sometimes in subtle disguise.

Nah. I’ve heard him say nice things about Japan. If he was half as affected by propaganda as most Chinese he’d be here in an absolute MO******CKING RAGE about how Japan STEALS EVERYTHING!!!!

bernverdnardo1 on November 24, 2012 at 2:09 PM

A democracy is two foxes and a chicken deciding
what to have for lunch .

Lucano on November 24, 2012 at 1:52 PM

.
Thread closed :)

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 2:08 PM

.
Aye . . . . . you can’t top that.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 2:13 PM

bernverdnardo1 on November 24, 2012 at 2:09 PM

There are lots of nice things about Japan. It’s a marvelous land, to visit, I assure you. It’s likely the most civilized on Earth.

Don’t be fooled on the other. He’s a nice guy, loves good food, keeps subtle about his aims, but they are evident 1001 times in HA.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Nah. I’ve heard him say nice things about Japan. If he was half as affected by propaganda as most Chinese he’d be here in an absolute MO******CKING RAGE about how Japan STEALS EVERYTHING!!!!

bernverdnardo1 on November 24, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Thank you.

For the record, the Senkaku Islands belong to Nippon, bitches.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:15 PM

We need to keep a close eye on them, but their future is in their own hands.

Unfortunately, so is ours!

Deano1952 on November 24, 2012 at 2:18 PM

A democracy is two foxes and a chicken deciding
what to have for lunch .

Lucano on November 24, 2012 at 1:52 PM

.
Thread closed :)

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 2:08 PM

.
Aye . . . . . you can’t top that.

listens2glenn on November 24, 2012 at 2:13 PM

…I’m just looking for the next thread ^ after Lucano said that!

KOOLAID2 on November 24, 2012 at 2:19 PM

There are lots of nice things about Japan. It’s a marvelous land, to visit, I assure you. It’s likely the most civilized on Earth.

Schadenfreude on November 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM

It’s also a nice place to live, as I did for 9 years. I highly recommend it.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:24 PM

You really are naive about the way propaganda works.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 1:54 PM

Perhaps China’s not quite working on the Soviet model you’re used to.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:27 PM

What China and the US both need is more partition of government. I want to see more Hong Kongs and I want to see the idiots barricade themselves into No-Ko style prision states.

bernverdnardo1 on November 24, 2012 at 2:30 PM

Every black person should go see the movie “Lincoln” – it was the crazy Republicans
who pushed the 13th Amendment and later Grant fought back the KKK…..

I saw it last night and heard gasps when the democrats of the time were fighting the 13th Amendment…..people don’t know history…..

redguy on November 24, 2012 at 1:17 PM

MEANWHILE, how filmmaker Spielberg (and big DNC donor Spielberg) has rationalized that reality as to our history is to post-film-release announce that “the Republicans back then are the Democrats now and the Democrats back then are the Republicans now.”

So he’s out and about promoting some sort of master-switcheroo of party membership and party behavior (and historical responsibility and relevance) such that he’s trying to promote “today’s Democrats” as the people who “actually” made the 13th Amendment happen, thus stealing credit yet again and lying about the history involved, despite the film’s accuracy of party-identification in the historical times shown.

Lourdes on November 24, 2012 at 2:32 PM

Wouldn’t China be great with a socialist illegitimate kenyan running the largest populous country in the world?

It’s worked great for the largest economy in the world.

acyl72 on November 24, 2012 at 2:33 PM

Blacks started the Republican Party in Texas. Left people today refuse to deal with that, especially BLacks on the Left.

The best they can manage is to try and wedge in that “Spielberg switcher-oo” idea that “those” Blacks (back then) someone became “today’s Democrats” and “those” Democrats “back then” are now the evvullll GOP today.

Lourdes on November 24, 2012 at 2:34 PM

Do you really want a democratic China?

Doesn’t Castro ALSO refer to Cuba as “a democracy”? I know his bud Hugo Chavez calls Venezuela “a democracy”…

Lourdes on November 24, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Perhaps China’s not quite working on the Soviet model you’re used to.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:27 PM

If it’s so great, renounce and stay there permanently.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 2:40 PM

Democracies are unstable over time when not put into a system that guarantees rights to the individual. A constitutional democracy is a little better, but they also become unstable over time. Constitutional republics have been rarely tested with the US having one of the most durable, but only due to the concept of federalism.

The Progressive movement has been about destroying federalism, removing the barriers to popular democracy and putting the rights of the individual at risk with ‘group’ or collective rights where any individual has no rights save what they get from the various groups they are in.

A democracy in China is little better than what they have now.

Trying to get a totalitarian system to begin decentralizing power is a massive undertaking where some democratic reforms can start the ball rolling, but without a constitutional, republican and federalist goal it is more than likely to wind right back in a tyrannical system. That is why the confrontations at the low end and pushing back of power at the local level is heartening. Institutionalizing those gains would be a good start.

Democracy for its own sake is for the birds.

ajacksonian on November 24, 2012 at 2:44 PM

If it’s so great, renounce and stay there permanently.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 2:40 PM

I think I might. Just 2 years to go.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 1:23 PM

I have one of those tiny trampolines. You can just jump up and down, no fancy stuff, but if you want it, it’s still in the box!

Night Owl on November 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

We can tolerate a lot of things here, but let’s not be blaming Ed for anything other than his own Rinotastic posts. Oh… and that beige sweater he always wears.

Jazz Shaw on November 24, 2012 at 3:17 PM

Night Owl on November 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Thanks Night Owl. You are very generous and kind. I have a pogo stick for that kind of jumping.

I bet you could give it to a friend or relative once they sign an injury disclaimer. Lol.

SparkPlug on November 24, 2012 at 3:19 PM

Chinese Democracy domestically undersold expectations…

Certainly not Guns and Roses best…

Jeff2161 on November 24, 2012 at 3:19 PM

The Chinese people have been dependant on government for many generations now. A democracy in China now would result in the people voting in more freebies for themselves. Even Free Cell Phones.

Dennis D on November 24, 2012 at 3:51 PM

Chinese democracy good.
Tibet and other Chinese states break away better.
A China that comes to heel when we call best.

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 4:08 PM

I think I might. Just 2 years to go.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Don’t let the door hit you in the azz on your way out. We have enough Commie lovers in the U.S., one less is a good thing.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 4:14 PM

Democracy has always been and will always be a very messy virus.
May there be a pandemic of it!
May it infect every nation and may the souls of tyrants cry out in agony from the depths of Hell when Democracy grabs hold of their nation.
May I someday go to China and have to stand in line to piss on the portrait of Mao in Tienimenn Square.

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 4:17 PM

Don’t let the door hit you in the azz on your way out. We have enough Commie lovers in the U.S., one less is a good thing.

JPeterman on November 24, 2012 at 4:14 PM

Apparently we do. Obama second term is enough evidence of that.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 4:27 PM

I think I might. Just 2 years to go.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Why wait.
Renounce citizenship now and catch a flight.
Or are you just a big bag ‘o wind with no guts?

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 4:30 PM

Wow.

Dante on November 24, 2012 at 4:51 PM

Shame on you Ed.

Dr. Dog on November 24, 2012 at 1:14 PM

Ed didn’t write this.

Err… how about letting the Chinese decide?

1215 on November 24, 2012 at 1:07 PM

I agree.

dogsoldier on November 24, 2012 at 5:40 PM

Or are you just a big bag ‘o wind with no guts?

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 4:30 PM

Why don’t you give me a call.

The number is +86 15821009007

bubba

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 5:50 PM

If they ask for the city code it’s 21

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM

You know Jazz, China’s actually a real place you could visit. You could bring Erika with you.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 6:01 PM

If you wanted

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 6:02 PM

On any given day average person in China probably knows more about what’s going on in the US than the other way around Jazz.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 1:31 PM

Both our media and their media lives to prop up their respective corrupt governments. So it behooves our media to hide the truth about what’s happening in the USA, and it’s in China’s best interest to hide the truth about China and tell the truth about the USA.

Now here’s the difference — the media here is not only corrupt but also totally incompetent. So it not only lies about the USA, it also makes up crap about China because it would be too much work to find out what’s really going on.

The Rogue Tomato on November 24, 2012 at 6:38 PM

DarkCurrent

I will right after you renounce your citzenship.

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 7:00 PM

Jazz Shaw on November 24, 2012 at 3:17 PM

I don’t know about any beige sweater but I don’t miss the black and white hounds tooth or checked sports coat that went all wonky in pictures. He’s probably gotten way to skinny for that.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:08 PM

Dang, y’all are rough on Dark Current. I don’t get the ex-Pat thing but he seems like a nice enough guy.

Cindy Munford on November 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM

DarkCurrent

I will right after you renounce your citzenship.

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 7:00 PM

Why not?

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 7:33 PM

Perhaps we should fight with swords.

You’ll like this redneck. You’ll finally be free.

イザ!

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Ouch

Ten Feet of Blue on November 24, 2012 at 7:44 PM

Perhaps we should fight with swords.

You’ll like this redneck. You’ll finally be free.

DarkCurrent on November 24, 2012 at 7:36 PM

…I’d pay good money to see that matchup. For all the others are ragging on you for daring to point out China’s good points, my money says you wouldn’t run.

MelonCollie on November 24, 2012 at 7:45 PM

well, i will chime in too, because i have lived in beijing on two separate occasions for about three total years. i have traveled throughout china and know the country and people fairly well.

dark current is wrong in many, many ways and in a dangerous way. he is the most dangerous kind of person, the kind who only knows what he sees and feels himself, without empathy for others. for example, you do not have to travel far in any direction in china to see exactly how they build so much, so fast. they put workers from the distant villages into tiny, makeshift housing and work them to the bone for barely any money. things like this may happen illegally in america, but it is the rarity, not the norm. not so in china.

he talks about people with information. he has no grasp of the ravaging poverty that the vast majority of the country still lives in. he only travels in circles (this must be the case for him to be so blatantly obtuse about the reality) where there is money and relative freedom of information.

but if you talk to the average chinese person who lives a very low comfort life (by american standards – i.e. no car, few, if any household conveniences…..the neighborhood i lived in still had one tv put out for the neighborhood to all gather around and watch – maybe 50 people – at once, etc.).

this does not even begin to touch on the absolute and blatant corruption REQUIRED to get anything done in the country. darkcurrent is a foreigner and likely has everything done for him. if he only knew. i dated a girl there whose father was a high school principal. he was from the countryside, but very wealthy, and all from graft.

darkcurrent is ignorant and sadly so. because there is much to be sad about in china, and little to be exalted. the people are very friendly, and very nice, and they have a new, and somewhat dangerous, patriotic pride, but there is no reason to shield the country from rightful criticism simply to ease ones own guilt at having taken the easy way and abandoned your own country.

shame on you, mr. current. shame on you.

truecon on November 24, 2012 at 7:58 PM

North Korea is good as dead — given the utterly razor thin margin between life & death they all exist in now — if China were to go democratic without them.

FlatFoot on November 24, 2012 at 8:14 PM

DarkCurrent

You stated you were thinking about renouncing citizenship in two years.
Why wait? For a Chicom green card? Bribe a few folks.
Renounce or no.
Do it or shut up about it.

Bubba Redneck on November 24, 2012 at 10:49 PM

The point of democracies is that they allow change without revolutions which tend to be very destructive. We will see if China can avoid revolution without democracy.

KW64 on November 24, 2012 at 11:02 PM

shame on you, mr. current. shame on you.

truecon on November 24, 2012 at 7:58 PM

I’m not unaware of the problems in China. Besides having lived here for 7 years, I’ve been traveling here frequently for nearly a quarter century. I’ve traveled widely, including rural areas. My wife is Chinese, so besides my many Chinese coworkers and friends I also have a great many Chinese relatives. I’m quite familiar with the realities here, good and bad.

The fact is China has grown and improved incredibly in the last few decades and continues to do so.

DarkCurrent on November 25, 2012 at 10:05 AM

Is Obama’s China pivot to reinforce _stability_ or bring foreword his brand, the international Left’s flavor pattern of agitation? Obama’s policies and regulations blanketing our economy into recession are the designed pivot for China’s ascendency? The global financial crisis did not hold China who had a growth rate of more than 12% two years ago and is only now _stabilizing_ to 7.4%. Some fall. Europe, Latin America, and the U.S. are unable to grow economies in an increasingly bankrupt world. Obama bows to the object of his affection and project, China as the _stable_ engine of the global economy. Obama can be -flexible- as the spokesman Citizen Of the World for the consumption-driven economy model. Not to diminish David Cameron’s self-identified and camera ready consumer-facing part of the international Left economy for the Europeans.

Now Obama can heal the sea and air unmolested by elections for balkanized identity groups the world over beyond Lybia. Catalonia votes today for independence from Spain and soon Basque country! Obama will be there for you separatists from Quebec to Kurdistan. The answer is always more government and the newer the better to skip unfunded mandates. Tibet? No, you mistake the matter. China is overjoyed to see Obama coming with heated rhetoric reshaping only American footprints and institutions as the U.S. military builds boots on the ground and drones hold open the doors in Africa to _stabilize_ cross-border and ethnic conflict so China can feed from their raw material web. The Central Committee will endorse the international Left’s brand of _stable_ judicial fiat by funding the Obama administration debt. Can you doubt it? Not just anyone can sell
China’s rising leaders
on corrosive fads that fuel corruption: camera ready politicians, ultra-Green, corporate welfare as tax policy, or denouncing YouTube videos, etc.

Only Obama’s EPA can unplug my fridge. And only Obama can turn the tide in uniting the workers of the world in China to get their fair share, to start feeding off of, instead of contributing to, the state economic engine. There are no shortcuts in the Chinese way but look how focused Obama is on a _stable_ Israel. Is there no puzzle Obama can’t solve?

FeFe on November 25, 2012 at 7:13 PM