Feinstein: Hamas on the verge of committing war crimes

posted at 9:16 am on November 21, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

To be fair, Senator Feinstein said this last night, before Hamas took credit for their heroic attack on that bus full of unarmed civilians in Tel Aviv this morning. However, it’s not as if Hamas has suddenly taken up terrorism as a last resort. The rockets have rained down on southern Israel for years from Hamas-controlled Gaza, and they’re aimed at schools, stores, and homes. Feinstein sounds a little more concerned about their points of origin than their targeting in this clip:

“I hope people see Hamas for what it is, and that is using their own people as human shields,” Feinstein said. “Putting these missiles and rockets in places right in the middle of residential areas, in homes and mosques and parks — you don’t do this. I mean, this borders on being an international war crime. Now the problem is, Hamas isn’t a member of either of the organizations — the Geneva Conventions or others that would hold this as a war crime. So, it’s a very difficult situation. Our solidarity has to be with Israel. This is a point where Israel has been under attack for a long period of time, and nothing has solved it.”

I understand what Feinstein wants to say here, but it’s old news. If people haven’t already seen what Hamas has done in the past with their targeting of civilians, use of human shields, and years of provocations, then they’re not going to see those qualities in this episode, either. The war crimes have occurred during the years-long hail of rockets on Ashdod and Sderot; they didn’t start when the missiles got better range and started threatening Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Feinstein urged Israel to tighten their relations with Mahmoud Abbas as the only path out of the decades-long crisis, and called again for the moderate Arab states to pitch in:

“I think Israel moving forward with Mahmoud Abbas is the only way to go,” she said. “And to miss this opportunity, actually because the window is closing — the demographics of the area are making it increasingly difficult, because the Arab population inside of Israel is increasing every year. So this is, in my book, an opportunity. And if the moderate Arab nations would every really to step up to be helpful in solving this, I believe it could be solved. You’ve got a couple of very thorny issues. But the geography of it has been pretty well worked out over the years.”

Sounds great … but which “moderate” Arab nations does she mean? The increasingly Islamist American ally of Turkey (which isn’t Arab at all, of course), whose head of state called Israel a “terrorist nation” this week with nary a word of protest from the US? The moderate state of Egypt, which is now run by Hamas’ parent organization the Muslim Brotherhood, thanks to Barack Obama’s insistence that our decades-long ally Hosni Mubarak capitulate? Jordan, whose kingdom has to look at American actions in Egypt, Libya, and Turkey, and wonder why they should stick their neck out to be “moderate”? Increasingly, the only “moderate” nation in the region is Saudi Arabia, which is a rather startling realization.

A two-state solution is the best outcome for Israel. Unfortunately, Hamas is only interested in a one-state solution, a point it keeps making in word and deed over the past decade or more, and Abbas won’t back a two-state solution when he speaks to his own people in Arabic. Israel may be the only player in this conflict legitimately supporting that solution. When the US can solve that problem, we will be almost all the way to peace.


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And there you have it ladies and gentleman. The core of American Israeli policy. The wild ravings of evangelical Christianity.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:18 AM

And there you have it, ladies and gentlemen – the wild ravings of the God hating left. I used to read Revelation and wonder how as plague after plague hit the earth, and God showed up time and time again, the people “gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.” (Revelation 16) I used to think, “How could this happen? How could people not see God’s hand at work and not repent? If they SAW Him doing something plain and simple, wouldn’t they be impressed by that? Wouldn’t it get their attention?”

Nope.

People look at Israel and curse Israel, just as they have always done, because they hate the God of heaven. And it’s only going to get worse as people hate God more and more.

You can try to spin that as politics, libfreeordie. I see it as further proof of my faith.

JoseQuinones on November 21, 2012 at 10:28 AM

Did I defend Hamas in this thread? I’d be concerned with Hamas’ treatment of sexual minorities if the U.S. was funneling tens of billions of dollars to prop up Hamas in their war against gay and lesbian people. But we don’t.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:21 AM

Yes we actually do.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 10:29 AM

Anthony Weiner was a liberal Democrat – on every subject except Israel.

He maintained that he “came from the ZOA wing of the Democratic Party”, the Zionist Organization of America.

Man, pretty lucky we managed to foist that apartheid-loving zionist conservative from office before it was too late.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:30 AM

Reminds me of a “Laugh-In” joke, raving anti-semites on that show
/snarc

Laugh-In Looks at the News…..

“Today the United Nations condemned Zionism as a form of racism.

Sammy Davis Jr. said ‘Hey, that’s great! Now I can hate myself!’”

itsspideyman on November 21, 2012 at 10:27 AM

“say Good night Dick”

“Good night Dick”

ToddPA on November 21, 2012 at 10:30 AM

But American conservatives love apartheid in most any form, so naturally, folks are supportive of Isreal.
libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:09 AM

Yeah…uh…George Wallace (D-Alabama) would like to have a talk with you.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:22 AM

And so would Bull Connor. And Orval Faubus. And J. William Fulbright. Dems one-and-all.

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:24 AM

And don’t forget the old Ku Klux Klan hero. . . Robert Byrd.

These leftists need to check their lineage before they shoot off their mouths.

rplat on November 21, 2012 at 10:31 AM

Feinstein said. “Putting these missiles and rockets in places right in the middle of residential areas, in homes and mosques and parks — you don’t do this. I mean, this borders on being an international war crime.

Who cares about the gazans? They voted for these savages. They deserve what they get.

Further, while there is no such things as war crimes, anyway, hamas is guilty of launching missiles into populated areas of Israel for no reason other than to just wage war on Israel. hamas and the residents of gaza deserve to be treated to the proper retaliation and reaction to this ongoing war, which is to put every single one of them at risk and for many of them to come face-to-face with the consequences of the actions coming out of their territory. Further, Israel needs to take a 30 mile buffer region of out gaza and annex it. Never to be negotiated away. Never to allowed to be discussed. Taken. Gone. Finished. If hamas continues its war then more land from gaza is to be cleared and annexed. Arabs only understand losing land and losing stuff. They really don’t care how many of their people die. To arabs (as is true of all islams) people are nothing but worthless fodder. That’s why muslims have to kiss the ground five times a day – to drive home to each the fact that they are utterly insiginificant pieces of trash. That is what arab and islamic culture are all about. All they understand is losing land – and losing it for good.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

Yeah…uh…George Wallace (D-Alabama) would like to have a talk with you.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:22 AM

Is your contention that George Wallace was a liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

It’s really frustrating, but deliberately targeting civilians is not a War Crime.
A person has to be working for a legitimate government to commit a war crime.
.
If Mexican Cartels start shooting civilians, they are committing crimes, not war crimes.
Hamas is not a recognized government; thusly their people only commit crimes.

LincolntheHun on November 21, 2012 at 9:53 AM

Looks like an act of war to me. But then again, I’m not a pedantic lawyer-type. Wasn’t Hamas legitimately elected in Gaza a few years ago? Sounds like that qualifies as a “government” to me.

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 9:56 AM

My opinion is that individual terrorists are committing crimes. But committing them across borders is encouragement for war. A government conducting cross-border attacks is engaging in war. And since I believe that a government is responsible for their citizens, they should be held responsible for what it happening. If they were helping stop the attacks, that would be one thing. But in this case, the elected government is encouraging and supporting the attacks. This is war, but not necessarily war crimes.

As such, I feel that Israel should treat it as an act of war. They should serve notice to the government that their citizens are engaging in acts of war and if they elected government does not respond, then they will regard it as an act of war by the government themselves. Give them 3 days to repent… and then wipe them off the face of the earth.

dominigan on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

And so would Bull Connor. And Orval Faubus. And J. William Fulbright. Dems one-and-all.

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:24 AM

In what ways are these men liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM

Britain established a Jewish area there before WWII. The Muslims did not like it then, either but the British were not pantywaists at the time and they hit them hard enough to make them back down. This is why the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was always hanging around Hitler. He figured it was his only chance to get the British off his back.

This is where I don’t get libs. After WWII, the Jews were granted an audience at the most holy site of liberaldom, the UN, and had their petition approved, thus giving them statehood via international law. You’d think libs would be all over that as the only “legal” way to establish a country but no, they’re all like “It’s an apartheid state.” Sheesh, there’s just no pleasing some people.

Odysseus on November 21, 2012 at 10:33 AM

In what ways are these men liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

Did you see the two posts pointing to the fact that Obama/Hillary did in fact send money to Hamas? No response?

Night Owl on November 21, 2012 at 10:34 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:21 AM
Hillary funded this attack on civilians in Apr 2012

Against GOP objections, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has announced that the Obama administration is sending $147 million in funding to the West Bank and Hamas-run Gaza.

faraway on November 21, 2012 at 9:13 AM
Oops!

Night Owl on November 21, 2012 at 10:28 AM

Re-read my post. I said “tens of billions.” I thought conservatives were good at math….

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:35 AM

And so would Bull Connor. And Orval Faubus. And J. William Fulbright. Dems one-and-all.

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:24 AM

In what ways are these men liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

I didn’t call them liberal, dipshit. I called them Democrats. Which they were. You do realize that one of Bill Clinton’s most influential mentors was J. William Fulbright, segregationist…right? So was Clinton mentored by a conservative, or a liberal? Square the circle, pal.

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:36 AM

Is your contention that George Wallace was a liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

Is it your contention he was Republican?

itsspideyman on November 21, 2012 at 10:36 AM

Is your contention that George Wallace was a liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

Is it your contention he was Republican?

itsspideyman on November 21, 2012 at 10:36 AM

I love seeing liberals squirm in discomfort. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. :)

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:37 AM

Is your contention that George Wallace was a liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

Is it your contention that you didn’t vote for the historic party of slavery, segregation and racism? I was betting you are a Democrat. Are you claiming you’re not?

dominigan on November 21, 2012 at 10:37 AM

In what ways are these men liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

In the same way you are. Not truly liberal but with closed, bigoted minds. Just like you.

Vince on November 21, 2012 at 10:38 AM

Re-read my post. I said “tens of billions.” I thought conservatives were good at math….
libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:35 AM

Bwhahahha. So supporting the persecution of gays, women and jews with millions of dollars is OK but upping it to billions is crossing the line.

tommyboy on November 21, 2012 at 10:38 AM

Is your contention that George Wallace was a liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

Is it your contention that you don’t vote for demorats, that liberals such as yourself didn’t keep Robert Byrd in office for 50 years?

Don’t go moving the goalposts now or this will turn into a loooooong game of semantics.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:38 AM

Robert Byrd: Ku Klux Klan member, Kleagle, federal senator, and DEMOCRAT. Mwahahahaha!

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

These animals live for committing, “War Crimes!” Israel needs to make their attack, proportionately ten to hundred times worse than anything the terrorists from humas do! End this idiocy, like Vlad The Impaler,While bathing the dead terrorists in pigs blood. Take away the terrorists idea of going to paradise! Fight these animals, in terms they can understand. Disincentivise, the glorification of death! The terrorists, repeatedly say, that they love death more than we love life! Well, make them look forward to a death without paradise. Make sure, their god rejects them!

http://www.paratisiusa.blogspot.com

God Bless America!

paratisi on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

Of course American Democrats tend to support Isreal. The Democrats have historically been the expansionist, imperialist party. Under Reagen the GOP hadn’t quite gotten the balls to be openly imperialist, so Reagan pursued interventionist campaigns in secret (till he was caught) and finally openly in Panama. The Bush family ushered in explicit GOP imperialism, but no one does it quite like the Democrats. And Democrats have been eager to support NATO, the UN, World Bank and WTO which are all agents of Western imperialism.

Between this and your confused sense that Jim Crow democrats were “liberal” there’s so much misinformation around here.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

This is where I don’t get libs. After WWII, the Jews were granted an audience at the most holy site of liberaldom, the UN, and had their petition approved, thus giving them statehood via international law.

Odysseus on November 21, 2012 at 10:33 AM

I understand your point but it’s really not true. The UN had nothing to do with the stablishment of the State of Israel. Israel had to forge its existence by force of arms and has had to defend it in the same way ever since. The UN, after the one vote to accept Israel as a nation (Yay … and then they sat back and watched as everyone expected the arabs to consume the place in a week) spent the rest of its miserable existence almost single-mindedly concentrating on hammering Israel and trying to wipe it off the face of the map. If you look at all of the resolutions that the USSC and general assembly have passed in its pathetic history you will find that a gigantic chunk of them (upwards of 40% for many, many years) were about nothing but criticizing and beating down Israel (and that doesn’t even include all the resolutions that were shot down by the US).

Leftists don’t care about laws or techinicalities. If they did, they would have been the first ones to claim that Iraq had violated its agreements and attacked coalition forces (us) in the no-fly zone, thereby legally committing acts of war. But leftists just chose to ignore all that, as they simply ignore any law that doesn’t give them their desired outcome. Arguing legalities with leftists is as productive as arguing calculus with a cocker spaniel or an Indonesian Precedent.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

Re-read my post. I said “tens of billions.” I thought conservatives were good at math….

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:35 AM

Liberals aren’t. Those “tens of billions” exist solely in the imagination of your liberal circle jerk. Google up “camp david accords”.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

Re-read my post. I said “tens of billions.” I thought conservatives were good at math….

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:35 AM

So you only care that they want you dead if they get tens of billions of dollars from us? Interesting.

Night Owl on November 21, 2012 at 10:40 AM

I understand what Feinstein wants to say here, but it’s old news. If people haven’t already seen what Hamas has done in the past with their targeting of civilians, use of human shields, and years of provocations, then they’re not going to see those qualities in this episode, either.

Well, better late to the party than never. However, Feinstein is purely a political animal, so her statement and position have nothing to do with principle but are geared to her political advantage in some way. Some infighting going on here

AZfederalist on November 21, 2012 at 10:40 AM

So was Clinton mentored by a conservative, or a liberal? Square the circle, pal.

gryphon202 on November 21, 2012 at 10:36 AM

While his historian tries to paint Jimmy Carter as not a “segregationist”, he opposed bussing, was in favor of private schools, and said he would invite George Wallace to give a speech in Georgia.

itsspideyman on November 21, 2012 at 10:40 AM

Of course, now we know why liberals love to rewrite history. They like to pretend they’re moral even though they are on the wrong side every time.

Like I remarked to some liberal friends… at least I’m not ashamed of the party I voted for! In fact, I’m pretty proud of our accomplishments… ending slavery, ending Jim Crow laws, passing Civil Rights…

(…of course they were spitting angry and calling me all types of names I can’t repeat here without getting banned. I guess the truth really does hurt!)

dominigan on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Re-read my post. I said “tens of billions.” I thought conservatives were good at math….

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:35 AM

Re-read the article, that’s 147 million in additional aid to the Palestinians.

However, I know affirmative-action professors don’t have the tendency to be good at basic reading.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Is it your contention that you don’t vote for demorats, that liberals such as yourself didn’t keep Robert Byrd in office for 50 years?

Robert Byrd won office in West Virginia, a state which nearly nominated a convicted white felon over president Obama in this year’s Democratic primary. I’m confused as to why I, someone who has never lived in West Virginia, am somehow responsible for the electoral decisions and racial attitudes of the people in that state.

So please, remind me, under what definition of liberalism includes George Wallace and the Jim Crow Democrats?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM

You’re a Jew-hating whore.
We get it.
Am Yisrael Chai, B**CH!

annoyinglittletwerp on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Between this and your confused sense that Jim Crow democrats were “liberal” there’s so much misinformation around here.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

Especially the part where you voted Democrat, right liberal?

dominigan on November 21, 2012 at 10:43 AM

Re-read my post. I said “tens of billions.” I thought conservatives were good at math….

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:35 AM

How many suicide vests does $127 million buy? I’m thinking quite a few.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:43 AM

And Democrats have been eager to support NATO, the UN, World Bank and WTO which are all agents of Western imperialism.

The UN is an agent of US imperialism? Is that why Stalin was so adamant on its creation?

Were you born this retarded or did it come about naturally?

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 10:44 AM

Of course American Democrats tend to support Isreal.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:39 AM

Are you serious? I’ve heard more anti-semitic anger from Democrats than I have ever heard from Republicans, especially when it comes to those in Israel who are deeply connected to their faith.

Matter of fact, can you come up with anything said by a Republican that was anti-semitic?

itsspideyman on November 21, 2012 at 10:44 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:17 AM

And who knows how much is sent to Hamas through terrorists like Iran and Al-Quaeda for the express purpose of blowing Israel to smithereens?

The US supports Israel; that it is an “apartheid state” is your opinion, and my guess is that you are in the minority in thinking so.

To reiterate what others have said, Israel has already tried to be peaceful with these folks by turning over land (which was well-cultivated and prosperous) as said folks demanded, who then turned it into a dust bowl. And those folks also continually bombard Israel with rockets, not caring where they land or who is killed. Nor do they care where they shoot from, which is what causes the majority of innocent deaths in Gaza. They sacrifice their children to annihilate Israel.

chelie on November 21, 2012 at 10:45 AM

So please, remind me, under what definition of liberalism includes George Wallace and the Jim Crow Democrats?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

The part where self-described liberals support their legacy by voting for the Democrat party. Wait a minute… that describes YOU doesn’t it!

dominigan on November 21, 2012 at 10:45 AM

Tell our resident retard that the ME Muslims were allied with the Nazis and were the losers of World War II and they can’t change that. There were massive relocations of people in Europe after the war ended and all those people dealt with the border changes and got on with their lives. So should the so-called ‘palestinians’.

slickwillie2001 on November 21, 2012 at 10:45 AM

I’m confused as to why I, someone who has never lived in West Virginia, am somehow responsible for the electoral decisions and racial attitudes of the people in that state.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

As opposed to an ineligible Indonesian Precedent whose OFFICIAL inaugural benediction included the despicable, anti-American, retarded:

“Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day [...] when white will embrace what is right.”

Yep. You leftists are just peachy in your pathetic racism and anti-Westernism. You people are despicable, lying scumbags who are nothing but a burden and destructive force to the societies that are unlucky enough to be burdened with your pathetic existences.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 10:46 AM

Not to worry – Obama has Israel’s back!

The picture was banned on Twitter, and all accounts reposting it were deleted.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 10:46 AM

How many suicide vests does $127 million buy? I’m thinking quite a few.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:43 AM

Hamas got almost $900 million from Barky and the dems out of the Porkulus.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 10:47 AM

So please, remind me, under what definition of liberalism includes George Wallace and the Jim Crow Democrats?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

And where are they Republican? Come to think of it,when were they ever condemned by Democrats during their career?

I was watching the day Robert Byrd on Sunday television used the N-word, not once, but twice. No one condemned it, none of the newspeople said anything about it. Democrats by not condemning the remard are complicit in its use.

itsspideyman on November 21, 2012 at 10:47 AM

Robert Byrd won office in West Virginia, a state which nearly nominated a convicted white felon over president Obama in this year’s Democratic primary. I’m confused as to why I, someone who has never lived in West Virginia, am somehow responsible for the electoral decisions and racial attitudes of the people in that state.

So please, remind me, under what definition of liberalism includes George Wallace and the Jim Crow Democrats?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:41 AM

So you never sent a dime to any national demorat organization, is that your “contention”, the same organizations that would have assisted demorat pols such as Robert Byrd in their reelection bids?

Please provide copies of all correspondence you sent to your own congressional representatives and presidents over the years demanding that the party quit supporting apartheid-loving racists such as Robert Byrd and Anthony Weiner.

Ohhh….look what I found:

President Barack Obama and thousands of ordinary West Virginians honored the late Sen. Robert C. Byrd, America’s longest-serving senator, at a memorial service in the late senator’s home state Friday.

“I’ll remember him as he was when I came to know him,” Obama told the gathering, “his white hair flowing like a mane, his gait steady with a cane, determined to make the most of every last breath. The distinguished gentleman from West Virginia could be found at his desk to the very end and doing the people’s business.”

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:48 AM

The part where self-described liberals support their legacy by voting for the Democrat party. Wait a minute… that describes YOU doesn’t it!

dominigan on November 21, 2012 at 10:45 AM

I see. And what does it mean that you support the GOP, the party which ushered in the first massive expansions of the federal government during Reconstruction, and created the social safety net in the form of Mothers/veterans pensions and the Freedmen’s Bureau? Are you suggesting it is impossible that the ideological and racial politics of political parties change over time?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM

How many suicide vests does $127 million buy? I’m thinking quite a few.

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 10:43 AM

Would buy a lot of duct tape.

davidk on November 21, 2012 at 10:52 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:50 AM

It was you who started all the racist generalities and stereotypes, perfesser.

But, by all means, keep dancing. Your meltdown is very entertaining.

kingsjester on November 21, 2012 at 10:52 AM

Trollcott over ?
Ya really need this dope ?

Lucano on November 21, 2012 at 10:52 AM

On the verge? I think they crossed that line a long time ago. They’re blowing up busses full of civilians, rounding up people accused of being spies and shooting them in the streets. I’m pretty sure they crossed the war crimes rubicon a long time ago.

dczombie on November 21, 2012 at 10:54 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM

You’re an idiot.

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 10:58 AM

So you never sent a dime to any national demorat organization, is that your “contention”, the same organizations that would have assisted demorat pols such as Robert Byrd in their reelection bids?

Oh I’m sure that I have. And here’s the other thing, I am sure in supporting the national democrats I have supported other politicians who have racist sentiments. Lets face it, white men and women of a certain generation, Reid, Biden, et al, where raised in a society where white people were told, from birth, that black people were inferior and fundamentally different from themselves. This is regardless of political party or region (I love that particular GOP fiction that anti-black racism existed only in the South).

If you’re a black voter in this country and you choose to participate in electoral politics, you’ve already decided to participate in a fundamentally racist system. But you’ve made a bargain; you support the politician or party who (at least in terms of policy) expouses the least racist outcome. Do I believe Robert Byrd had some genuine change of heart. Of course not. And do I believe that Obama, in honoring him, actually believed that? Of course not. Obama is a politician….they lie. But I do believe that black people will/do benefit from *some* policies that Democrats support. I believe the Democratic party has been more welcoming to black candidates and officials within the party structure. I think you’re under the assumption that voting for Democrats = some broad support of Democrats as genuinely anti-racist. No. Its about the lesser of two evils.

None of that, however, has to do with the question of whether “conservatism” or “liberalism” support apartheid. Unless your claim is that the political parties own political ideologies?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:59 AM

When the state of Israel was founded the new Israeli government gave the native Arabs within their new borders the option to stay as full citizens of the new state. But these Arabs were persuaded by the neighboring Islamic countries to leave Israel and thus was born the Palestinian refugee problem.

These refugees have never received, or received only marginal, help from their Islamic friends. This was done on purpose so that there would be a permanent talking point for the Arab street.

Every decision by the Arabs since then has been to continue this problem. It is a deliberate policy. Victims are so much more useful than independent functioning citizens.

esr1951 on November 21, 2012 at 9:40 AM

Yes, and those ‘palestinians’ that stayed inside Israel and became Israeli citizens are today better off in Israel than in any craphole Arab nation. They have the most freedom, the best health care facilities, best educational opportunities, and the most free economic system in which to advance themselves.

slickwillie2001 on November 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM

How can we support Isreal, but we repudiated South Africa. Oh wait, American conservatism supported apartheid South Africa pretty much until the end. Circle complete.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 9:30 AM

Yep. Gotta give you that one.

South Africa is really a dream state now. Low crime rates. Very little disease. Hardly any poverty at all. Friendship and respect between the races. A thriving economy.
Oh, it’s just wonderful!

/////////////////////////s//////////////////////////////

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 11:03 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:59 AM

So, basically, free stuff.

Night Owl on November 21, 2012 at 11:03 AM

where raised in a society where white people were told, from birth, that black people were inferior and fundamentally different from themselves.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:59 AM

You’re talking about affirmative action and minority set-asides, here, genius. Of course, you’re in favor of that since there wouldn’t be any way to get someone occupying the Oval Office who has the mathematical sophistication of a slow 8th grader and certainly didn’t crack 920 on his SATs, otherwise.

You should be really proud.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 11:04 AM

You’re an idiot.

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 10:58 AM

You are correct sir. Perhaps some fine day a thread at HA will come up on a topic which is relevant to the post-secondary education that our resident retard has, even though it’s an AA education. I’m sure then that he/she will impress us a whole lot with his/her intelligence. Until then…

slickwillie2001 on November 21, 2012 at 11:05 AM

South Africa is really a dream state now. Low crime rates. Very little disease.

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 11:03 AM

South Africa always had a disease. We just cannot name it here.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 11:05 AM

If you’re a black voter in this country and you choose to participate in electoral politics, you’ve already decided to participate in a fundamentally racist system.

How is democracy or a republic a fundamentally racist system? And does this apply to democracies in Afrida or the Carribean?

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:06 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:59 AM

Yep, you’re spinning like a top now, rationalizing your support and votes for a party more than willing to include the very people you claim are ignorant, lying, pandering racists.

Now you have moved the goalposts to a discussion of liberalism and conservatism, as if your own personal liberalism isn’t subject to varying degrees of definition as evidenced by the rationalization mentioned above.

You are obviously willing to allow your high-minded “liberalism” to be corrupted by base political considerations, and yet you’re throwing accusations at conservatives?

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 11:07 AM

South Africa always had a disease. We just cannot name it here.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 11:05 AM

There is some “progress.”

33% of South African Black Men admitted to having committed rapes, which is a rise from 25% several years ago.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:08 AM

The left is pure evil.

Haunches on November 21, 2012 at 11:08 AM

South Africa is really a dream state now. Low crime rates. Very little disease. Hardly any poverty at all. Friendship and respect between the races. A thriving economy.
Oh, it’s just wonderful!

/////////////////////////s//////////////////////////////

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 11:03 AM

Yep. South Africa is following Rhodesia/Zimbabwe down the sh#tter. They started off with so much (something like a full 50% of the improvements in all of sub-saharan Africa were in South Africa) and the place has been moving downhill ever since. There are also loud rumblings of the Zimbabwe-style land confiscations (which turned Zimbabwe from a bread-basket to starving basketcase in a few short years).

Before the World Cup, there was a race in South Africa between a pidgeon and the internet transferring something like 20 megs between two cities. The pidgeon (carrying a USB flash drive with the data) won. Seriously.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 11:09 AM

There is some “progress.”

33% of South African Black Men admitted to having committed rapes, which is a rise from 25% several years ago.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:08 AM

See? The new regime has improved their libido.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 11:09 AM

Israel is an apartheid state, like explicitly so. Their existence is built upon a history of imperialism and displacement and their “discretion” in the Middle East comes from their welfare like dependency on the United States. I’m not sure, exactly, why Middle Easterners were and are asked to pay for the sins of Germans and other Western European nations who committed ethnic cleansing against Jewish people. Or how the West has the audacity to act all high and minded about anti-semitism when a generation ago, they were steeped in it. But here we are. Zionism is racism.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM

The Arabs were already committing progroms in Palestine when Israel didn’t even exist. “Progrom” means systematic killing of jews.

The Arabs had the chance to have their Palestinian state in 1948, but instead they decided to annihilate Israel on the day it was created. They lost this war. That’s the reason for today’s situation.

About a fourth of Israelis are Arabs, with the same rights as Jewish Israelis. There are NO Jews in the Arab countries.

The left is fanatically anti-semitic, therefore the Muslim countries are their natural allies. Which is a shame, considering the crimes against humanity in the Muslim countries.

Gelsomina on November 21, 2012 at 11:11 AM

Now you have moved the goalposts to a discussion of liberalism and conservatism, as if your own personal liberalism isn’t subject to varying degrees of definition as evidenced by the rationalization mentioned above.

If you can’t distinguish between a political party and an ideology than you’re nowhere near as smart as you pretend to be around here. Seriously. Like, this is the matter of understanding the definition of words in the English language. And if your argument is that attending to the specific definition of words is “spinning” well, this only feeds into the emerging picture of the stereotype of right-wing folks claiming that reality has a liberal bias. I am a progressive, when I vote in present day elections, I am voting for the present day party that is closest to my political ideology. An ideology is a system of thought or beliefs, a political party is a private group which organizes citizens participation within the democratic process. These things are not the same. Its not spinning, its language. Maybe you’re secretly a Derrida fan or something.

You are obviously willing to allow your high-minded “liberalism” to be corrupted by base political considerations, and yet you’re throwing accusations at conservatives?

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Isn’t this precisely what conservatives did when they pulled the lever for Mitt Romney. I guess somehow its worse when liberals do the exact same thing conservatives do or something.

None of this, however, is a defense of Isreal’s apartheid government.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:13 AM

About a fourth of Israelis are Arabs, with the same rights as Jewish Israelis. There are NO Jews in the Arab countries.

Gelsomina on November 21, 2012 at 11:11 AM

Not “NO”. There are still some here and there. At the turn of the 20th century, Baghdad was about 1/4 Jewish. After the second Gulf War there were found to be exactly 7 Jews left in Baghdad.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 11:15 AM

How is democracy or a republic a fundamentally racist system?

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:06 AM

Stunning. Our country was founded with the 3/5 clause enshrined in the Constitution and you still wonder how liberal democracy can be fundamentally racist. The only way you can conclude that American liberal democracy is not fundamentally racist is if one of the three things are true:

1. When the United States was founded it was not a liberal democracy.
2. The 3/5 clause did not exist at the founding.
3. The 3/5 clause did not enshrine two distinct definitions of citizenship based upon race.

Which is it?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:18 AM

After the second Gulf War there were found to be exactly 7 Jews left in Baghdad.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 11:15 AM

But Israel is an apartheid state and commits genocide on the Palestinians or something.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:19 AM

Many Jewish people are against Zionism. But American conservatives love apartheid in most any form, so naturally, folks are supportive of Isreal.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:09 AM

You really are quite the disgusting little racist, aren’t you.

I wonder what the affirmative action committee that hired you would say if they saw the racist and anti-semitic drivel you post, all printed out and put in a binder for them?
What the hell. They’d probably give you a raise for being such a well-trained little lap dog.

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 11:21 AM

“you still wonder how liberal democracy can be fundamentally racist.” Name a civilization in the history of the world that wasn’t at some point? And while you’re at it name a civilization other tha America that corrected that in less than 200 years.

tommyboy on November 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM

I wonder what the affirmative action committee that hired you would say if they saw the racist and anti-semitic drivel you post, all printed out and put in a binder for them?
What the hell. They’d probably give you a raise for being such a well-trained little lap dog.

Solaratov on November 21, 2012 at 11:21 AM

Are you threatening to harass me at my place of employment?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM

Zionism does not equal judaism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0haybEo-Tx4

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

Many Jewish people are against Zionism. But American conservatives love apartheid in most any form, so naturally, folks are supportive of Isreal.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:09 AM

When the Rev. Wright was asked in 2009 if he had visited President Obama he said no, because “Them Jews aren’t going to let him talk to me.”

That made headlines, of course, so a few days later he said, “I misspoke. Just let me say Zionists.”

Think about that. Maybe you have been brainwashed by your peers.

Gelsomina on November 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:18 AM

Affirmative Action says that blacks who score 3/5 on a test get a solid B+, so that they feel better about themselves. I believe that some dems in the South have actually made these affirmative action score adjustments law … Yes, the Florida Board of Edumacation made these adjustments. They gave blacks a value of 4/5ths, though (whites need 90% passing while blacks need only 74% passing), so I guess that qualifies as leftist progress.

You people are a stain on civilization.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM

None of this, however, is a defense of Isreal’s apartheid government.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:13 AM

Why haven’t you stopped shoplifting in department stores?

Hint: One cannot defend something that doesn’t exist.

Archivarix on November 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM

Stunning. Our country was founded with the 3/5 clause enshrined in the Constitution and you still wonder how liberal democracy can be fundamentally racist. The only way you can conclude that American liberal democracy is not fundamentally racist is if one of the three things are true:

Stunning? Why are you only focused on the 3/5 clause apart from tribal politics?

It also forbade voting rights for women and non-landowners and persons of certain age.

This was the case of all democracies whether it be in Ancient Greece or Western Europe.

And it continues to be the case in democracies in Africa where certain segments of the population are forbidden to vote?

While not racist, according to your logic, these blacks are participating in a bigoted system.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:23 AM

“you still wonder how liberal democracy can be fundamentally racist.” Name a civilization in the history of the world that wasn’t at some point? And while you’re at it name a civilization other tha America that corrected that in less than 200 years.

tommyboy on November 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM

U.S. liberal democracy solved its race problem in 200 years? Who’s going to be the one to tell tommyboy that Jim Crow happened? And no, saying that Jim Crow was established and propped up by Democrats fails to prove that liberal democracy is antithetical to racism, as Jim Crow Democrats were active participants within liberal democracy for most of the 20th century.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:24 AM

Are you threatening to harass me at my place of employment?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM

LOL. Who wants to hang out at the welfare office with you?

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on November 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Does libfreeordie really think that a Zionist is anyone that doesn’t want rockets fired at them?

That also appears to be her definition of imperialist.

tommyboy on November 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM

In what ways are these men liberal?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:32 AM

All of them supported killing Jews, which is the hallmark of liberalism and what is endorsed by today’s liberals and their fellow liberals in Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Iran.

northdallasthirty on November 21, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Are you threatening to harass me at my place of employment?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM

Harrassment? Contacting your superiors about your behavior using their property is not harrassment of you.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

Stunning? Why are you only focused on the 3/5 clause apart from tribal politics?

It also forbade voting rights for women and non-landowners and persons of certain age.

This was the case of all democracies whether it be in Ancient Greece or Western Europe.

And it continues to be the case in democracies in Africa where certain segments of the population are forbidden to vote?

Then why on earth is it controversial when I say “any black person who participates in the electoral process in this country is making the decision to participate in a fundamentally racist system.” I wish people would follow conversation threads instead of picking one post out of context and putting their foot in their mouth.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

The left hates jews now because they get huge amounts of money from the muslims. Period. Any other complaint against Israel is just fantasy created to support their greed and statist affections.

Haunches on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

U.S. liberal democracy solved its race problem in 200 years? Who’s going to be the one to tell tommyboy that Jim Crow happened? And no, saying that Jim Crow was established and propped up by Democrats fails to prove that liberal democracy is antithetical to racism, as Jim Crow Democrats were active participants within liberal democracy for most of the 20th century.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:24 AM

Who’s going to tell you that Jim Crow ended?

Oh, that’s right; you can’t acknowledge that fact, because if you can’t scream “persecuted, persecuted, not my fault”, then people will judge you on your character rather than your skin color, and you don’t have a chance.

northdallasthirty on November 21, 2012 at 11:27 AM

I am a progressive, when I vote in present day elections, I am voting for the present day party that is closest to my political ideology. An ideology is a system of thought or beliefs, a political party is a private group which organizes citizens participation within the democratic process. These things are not the same. Its not spinning, its language.

Then why are you demanding definitions and interpretations of liberalism? Are you a liberal or a progressive, what is the difference? Also, why do you support a political party that never attempted to oust a stone-cold racist during his 5 decade senate tenure, is your liberalism “progressivism” that easily corrupted and sold to the highest bidder?

Isn’t this precisely what conservatives did when they pulled the lever for Mitt Romney. I guess somehow its worse when liberals do the exact same thing conservatives do or something.

None of this, however, is a defense of Isreal’s apartheid government.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:13 AM

Yes it is, that old “Best of the worst” choice we had to make this time around, you know, voting for the present day party that is closest to our political ideology.

But let’s get back to your stereotypical claim that conservatism supports apartheid. Why did you fail to include liberalism when the evidence has been thrown at your feet?

Bishop on November 21, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Then why on earth is it controversial when I say “any black person who participates in the electoral process in this country is making the decision to participate in a fundamentally racist system.” I wish people would follow conversation threads instead of picking one post out of context and putting their foot in their mouth.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

Because you endorse and support black people participating in these racist systems in countries like Zimbabwe.

What you seem to miss is that you are a racist. You believe in discriminating against people based on their skin color.

northdallasthirty on November 21, 2012 at 11:28 AM

Then why on earth is it controversial when I say “any black person who participates in the electoral process in this country is making the decision to participate in a fundamentally racist system.”

But these days the racism of the system is all directed at white Christians and Jews.

tommyboy on November 21, 2012 at 11:28 AM

So, libfreeordie, you think it’s ok to fire rockets at people because you don’t like their government?

I have not once defended Hamas on here, so I don’t know what this line of reasoning is supposed to produce. You do realize it is possible to be anti-Israel without being pro-Hamas right?

Does that mean it’s ok to fire rockets at Iranians, or do you LIKE their government?

blink on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

Considering I’m a pacifist? No it is not.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:28 AM

And there you have it ladies and gentleman. The core of American Israeli policy. The wild ravings of evangelical Christianity.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 10:18 AM

Well, fool, America will be turning its back on Israel soon, and you can see what we reap. My guess is you’ll be singing a different tune then.

zoyclem on November 21, 2012 at 11:28 AM

I am a progressive, when I vote in present day elections, I am voting for the present day party that is closest to my political ideology. An ideology is a system of thought or beliefs, a political party is a private group which organizes citizens participation within the democratic process. These things are not the same. Its not spinning, its language.

Actually, you are a regressive; you want race-based admission, race-based hiring, race-based compensation, and racial discrimination written as the law of the land, and you endorse and support the Obama Party, the racist party that openly states the laws do not apply to those who are not white.

This is primitive and foolish. But that describes Obama supporters like yourself perfectly.

northdallasthirty on November 21, 2012 at 11:30 AM

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:28 AM

And yet, somehow, it’s Israels fault that they are defending themselves.

School’s out for Thanksgiving, and you’re at home, aren’t you?

kingsjester on November 21, 2012 at 11:30 AM

Then why on earth is it controversial when I say “any black person who participates in the electoral process in this country is making the decision to participate in a fundamentally racist system.” I wish people would follow conversation threads instead of picking one post out of context and putting their foot in their mouth.

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

I never wrote that it was controversial, juut asked you a question about the nature of blacks voting in democracies. It’s curious that you would think it’s controversial.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:30 AM

I have not once defended Hamas on here,

You most certainly have. You have claimed that any time Israel defends itself it is guilty of imperialism which is a defacto defense of Hamas. You anti-semite slip is showing.

tommyboy on November 21, 2012 at 11:32 AM

Hey, libfreeordie:
They miss you over at MSNBC.
Just go back & brag how you bashed conservatives & Israel.
They just signed the check on your bonus.

Belle on November 21, 2012 at 11:32 AM

Your entire strawman is stupid, but this is completely inaccurate. In fact, our country wasn’t even founded with the Constitution. I’m not sure how you could be more wrong.

blink on November 21, 2012 at 11:29 AM

In the circles in which libfreeordie runs, sexual orientation and skin color substitute for fact.

Since libfreeordie is black and gay, it doesn’t have to be intelligent or competent. Indeed, liberals specifically state that asking a black person to be competent or intelligent is racist.

northdallasthirty on November 21, 2012 at 11:33 AM

I have not once defended Hamas on here, so I don’t know what this line of reasoning is supposed to produce. You do realize it is possible to be anti-Israel without being pro-Hamas right?

Except that your criticisms have been exclusively against Israel, so it would be easy to assume that you have a double standard on the matter.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:33 AM

Who’s going to tell you that Jim Crow ended?

I’m quite aware that the 1964, 65 and 68 civil rights bills passed the Congress. But (again follow the threads people) the original poster said that the race problem within U.S. liberal democracy was solved after “200 years.” That should seriously, seriously frighten you. Either tommyboy got his numbers wrong or he actually doesn’t understand Jim Crow was a racist system of governance that was countenanced within U.S. liberal democracy. Whether I’m still angry about Jim Crow or not is actually irrelevant to that very scary misunderstanding of American history.

Are you threatening to harass me at my place of employment?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:22 AM
Harrassment? Contacting your superiors about your behavior using their property is not harrassment of you.

sentinelrules on November 21, 2012 at 11:26 AM

How is this anything but an attempt to intimidate me into not posting? Is this conservatism?

libfreeordie on November 21, 2012 at 11:33 AM

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