Hunch: Obama doesn’t want a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff

posted at 8:31 am on November 17, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

Everyone came away from the initial summit meeting between Obama, Boehner and Reid with big smiles and a public air of confidence that Friday’s kumbaya moment would lead to The Big Deal. Call me a cynic, but I’m still not buying it. Yesterday, AP touched on a part of this story, tossing out some ideas about how everyone – particularly Democrats – might walk away with relatively clean hands if no deal is reached on the fiscal cliff this year. It’s all true, but for some of us there’s a bit more to the story. The Democrats, for their part, seem to have plenty to gain and not much to lose.

Some Democrats are pushing an unorthodox idea for coping with the “fiscal cliff”: Let the government go over, temporarily at least, to give their party more bargaining leverage for changes later on.

The idea has plenty of skeptics, and the White House regards it frostily. But it illustrates the wide range of early negotiating positions being staked out by Republicans and Democrats as lawmakers gathered Tuesday for their first post-election talks on how to avoid the looming package of steep tax hikes and program cuts.

But why would this work for Barack Obama? Because – as we learned the hard way on election day – he can watch the polls with the best of them. And if this train goes off the rails he has reason to believe that he won’t be left holding the bag.

A new poll by Hart Research’s Geoff Garin, conducted for Americans for Tax Fairness — a group that wants the Bush-era tax cuts to end for those who earn more than $250,000 — found that a majority of voters cited changing the tax system as a key factor in their votes, and that the majority broke for President Barack Obama.

The survey also found that Democrats have changed the landscape on an issue that has eluded them for years — taxes. The survey found that most want the Bush-era cuts on top earners to expire, but that Republicans will shoulder blame if all of the Bush cuts, including those on the middle class, expire because a deal can’t be reached.

Basically, this works out to a win-win for Obama. Yes, he could look like the great peacemaker and try to strike some sort of grand bargain with Boehner. And if he did, he would likely get some of what he and the Democratic majority want in exchange for taking a slightly less than maximum raise on taxes for the most wealthy. But why?

If he takes a very hard line and forces the showdown to a collapse in discussions, several potentially positive (for him) results are baked into the cake. He can claim that Republicans refused a “balanced approach” and it’s their fault that everyone’s taxes went up. He then has the Democrats force a vote on a bill to only lower taxes on the middle class and the poor and just dares the GOP to vote against it. (They won’t.) At this point he has the tax / revenue increase he promised without giving up a single thing. Now the negotiations start anew to talk about “spending cuts” but the GOP’s major bargaining chip is gone. Obama gets to put up a far more shallow version of cuts, and if the Republicans don’t like it, they can choose to reject the deal and just let the deficit continue to skyrocket.

What Republican in their right mind could go for this? Perhaps more than we might think.

The Republican Party took the rap for the debt ceiling and is under suspicion for the fiscal cliff. A new Washington Post-Pew Research poll has 53 percent of Americans ready to blame Republicans if America actually goes over the edge and only 29 percent planning to point fingers at President Barack Obama.

Understanding this, thoughtful Republicans are feeling freer to risk the tea partiers’ wrath and cooperate with Democrats. The teams may disagree on much, but at least they’re now playing in the same ballpark.

How does that work? Fairly simple. Just as I’ve been saying since earlier this year, if you needed congressional action to raise taxes it would never happen. But in this case, to raise tax rates all you need is for Congress to do nothing. And when you need nothing done, there’s no better crack team than Congress. And once the taxes are up, even the GOP reps who have signed the Norquist pledge are free to sign a bill that lowers taxes… even if that doesn’t apply to the wealthy. They get to remain covered on their voting record in their home districts and blame the fallout on the Democrats.

Here’s the part where I reveal my secret strategy of how the GOP can thwart this plan and come out on top.

Hang on… there’s somebody at the door.


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No matter what, the repubs are going to be smeared by the press and the smears believed by the leftist zealots. So why not tell the house dems to bring forth the revenue generating and spending plan they want to see implemented and lets take a vote on it. When the vote comes all the repubs vote “present”…..the plan will pass the house on dem wings and then Harry Reid has to decide if he wants to bring the plan before the senate or not….either way their plan is a loser as taxing the rich will not prevent the fiscal cliff from appearing. At least the repubs can then say that they had nothing to do with the mess that has been created……oh wait, I forgot….Bush did it.

tractah on November 17, 2012 at 10:17 AM

Frankly, the thought of taxes increasing for all so all can begin to feel the pain of our wasteful federal government is appealing.

FerdtheMoonCat on November 17, 2012 at 10:20 AM

Boehner should call on the Senate to pass a bill that can go to conference since the house already passed one. When Reid does not, blame the do-nothing Senate and at the last minute pass the Senate bill halting the tax increases on the 98% that Obama said he would sign and say that that was the only train in town to prevent higher taxes. See if Obama signs it or demands more.

Next year pass the house plan for dealing with reducing spending, reforming entitlements etc. and demand the Senate pass their plan. The Senate Dems will pass nothing. Then you go into the mid-terms with a sluggish economy and blame it on the Do-Nothing Senate headed by senile Harry Reid who claims their is no entitlement problem and thinks we can continue to borrow 1+ trillion dollars a year or just print more currency if no one else will buy the debt. Capping tax deductions within a deficit reducing House budget will have a populist appeal and the Dems will be hard pressed to explain why it is a bad idea.

KW64 on November 17, 2012 at 10:20 AM

I think Obama will cut a deal. To understand a man you have to ask: what does he desire? In his first two years, Obama desired “transformative change”: Obamacare. In his second he was preoccupied with reelection and began campaigning immediately after his debt ceiling failure. Now it is all about legacy. He knows he only has two years left. ObamaCare is the crown jewel and immigration reform would be a nice cherry on top. The GOP should work with him on it. But the legacy issue that dwarfs all the others is the economy. If the next four years are bad he will go down as a failure. He doesn’t want that. That’s why he will cut a deal on the debt, it may even be a good one with some entitlement reform. But his price will be increased taxes on the “wealthy”. He has to do that so as not to infuriate his base. He still needs them but he doesn’t need them to reelect him anymore. The big question about Obama has always been: who is he? Is he a true man of the left or an egotist who hi-jacked the left because he wanted to be president? I go with the latter. After all, he willingly destroyed his own congressional party just to get Obamacare passed. That’s why I think he will cut a deal but the next few weeks will tell us who he really is.

breffnian on November 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM

That’s because things haven’t gotten anywhere near as bad as they will over the next 4 years. Take our current economic situation and tack on another $4-6 trillion in debt, higher taxes, higher unemployment, higher energy prices, higher premiums, and more people uninsured. Think the Democrat nominee in 2016 will still manage to garner 51% of the vote by blaming Bush?

They’ll still blame Bush, but I don’t think it will take. We need to make sure Obama owns all of this outright.

RizzyG on November 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM

Also, I think we all should at least consider going full tilt lib freeloader. I can go work some simpleton job 30 hours a week and collect all the “gifts” and live ok. What the heck. L.I.B.
/

CW on November 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM

.
I endorse this strategy, 100%.

ExpressoBold on November 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM

We need to do whatever we need to do to win the Congress in 2014.

Forget the old battles.

faraway on November 17, 2012 at 10:22 AM

I don’t believe he wants a deal.

I have said before that a Marxist revolution, as seen in Latin America, is usually an armed, violent overthrow.

They can’t do it that way in the USoA–we have the guns.

The Marxist overthrow of America will be by a financial collapse. Out of which will rise the glorious USSA.

L.i.B.

davidk on November 17, 2012 at 10:24 AM

Now it is all about legacy. He knows he only has two years left.

breffnian on November 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM

The legacy cant happen unless he regains the House in 2014. He has already begun the war to win this.

We need to lick our wounds, and get into battle. They are not letting up.

faraway on November 17, 2012 at 10:25 AM

Obama always blinks.

STL_Vet on November 17, 2012 at 10:26 AM

CW on November 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM

Out of anger, I mentioned that to my friends jokingly, and we all laughed about it. But I want no part of the plan the libs have hatched to destroy capitalism and replace it with socialism, so I am refining my financial plans and living situation so I can get in touch with my inner Galt.

I just hope that I have enough time to get there. I want no part of the welfare state and government control of my life.

Philly on November 17, 2012 at 10:26 AM

I think the Republicans should take Prof. Reynolds’ (Instapundit)recommendation and propose higher taxes on the rich. Except just propose taxes that would hit blue state / Democrat constituencies. Hollywood is his prime target. But one could think of others say limits on mortgage deductions (blue states have higher home prices), 90% tax rates on income earned after service in Congress (retroactive), eliminate the tax free status on endowments, foundations, etc. Raise the tax on colleges whose tuition is over a certain threshold (hitting Harvard, Stanford, Yale, etc.)

As someone else suggested go Cloward-Piven but in a strategic way.

mrveritas on November 17, 2012 at 10:27 AM

…you must be counting on the media reporting all this?

KOOLAID2 on November 17, 2012 at 9:58 AM

Of course!
They’re the Fourth Estate.
The watchdogs of our Republic.
Highly trained individuals whose prime directive is to inform

Oh screw it.

justltl on November 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM

Calling on Boehner, McConnell, et al to do this or that is a waste of energy. These coprolite will capitulate to the dhimmicRATs as they always do.

It is time for a third party.

davidk on November 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM

The Republicans should make two offers. First, the one they have about closing loopholes. Their second, and fallback position should be a tax hike on those making a million dollars or more.

I truly don’t believe that sane people think of those who make $250,000 dollars a year as rich. The 47% might, but they are a lost cause despite what politicians are saying about going after every vote.

You have too many lefties in entertainment, media, and sports making over million who supported Barack O’Claus. Left them pay their fair share.

Those making between 250-750 thousand dollars a year are small business people. Basically hour base who you will attempt to spare, and who the Demrats want to destroy.

You call their bluff on the millionaires tax and if they don’t take it then over the cliff we go.

In the mean time, some of those evil rich conservatives better get to work taking over some of the media in this country to try and help with this. We need at least one alphabet network. Another Fox like cable network. Some major newspapers, and a few entertainment cable networks to try and change the messaging in this country.

They have used the culture to change and create their politics. They have pushed that all families are dysfunctional,dumbed down your kids with reality TV, taught everyone that promiscuity and sex are the way of the world, homosexuality is fun, cool and normal, and that business and corporations are evil and trying to kill Mizzou improved to 3-0 on the season, while Nicholls State falls to 0-2.
 
• The Tigers are now 2-0 all-time against the Colonels.
 
• The victory was Missouri’s 68th consecutive against a non-conference opponent, dating back to November of 2005.
 
• Senior Alex Oriakhi posted his second consecutive double-double with 17 points and 10 rebounds. The point output was just one off his career high.
 
• Oriahki has grabbed at least 10 rebounds in all three of Mizzou’s games this season. He is the first Tiger to record double-digit rebounds in the first three games of the season since Malcolm Thomas in 1983-84. He is also the first Tiger to grab at least 10 boards in three consecutive games since Ricardo Ratliffe accomplished the feat in four straight games early in the 2010-11 season (10 vs. North Florida, 12 vs. Wyoming, 14 vs. La Salle and 10 vs. Arkansas-Pine Bluff.
 
• Junior Earnest Ross scored 16 points to reach double figures for the second time in three games this season.
 
• Senior Laurence Bowers reached double figures for the third time in as many games with 12 points against Nicholls State.
 
• Senior Keion Bell also reached double figures with 14 points. It marks his first career double figure output as a Tiger.
 
• Mizzou shot 32 free throws during the contest. They are now averaging 31.7 free throw attempts per game. Last season, the team’s single-game high was 31, which was accomplished three times.
 
• Ross made three 3-pointers during the game. He entered the contest with just one 3-point make in Mizzou’s first two games.
 
• Mizzou’s hanging its hat on its defense early in 2012-13. The Tigers are holding opponents to 34 percent shooting from the floor and just 59.0 ppg. Missouri is also averaging 49 rebounds per game and own a +26 advantage on the offensive glass.you and the planet. Hell, I think a good majority of the people thought they were voting for the Fresh Prince of Bel Air in 2008.

Rockshine on November 17, 2012 at 10:30 AM

They’ll still blame Bush, but I don’t think it will take. We need to make sure Obama owns all of this outright.

RizzyG on November 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM

Of course they’ll still blame Bush(and the Tea Party and Republicans in Congress), but a majority of the electorate will not wanna hear that crap after 8 years. What are the Dems gonna say? We need to give them more time? They keep rediscovering how unexpectedly bad the situation they inherited was?

Obama was able to buy himself more time with the promise of goodies and 51% of the voters still blaming Bush more than him for the economy. A broke nation 8 years removed from the Bush Presidency will negate both electoral advantages for the Dems in 2016. And they won’t even have racial politics to fall back on next time unless they somehow clear the field for Deval Patrick or Tony Villar.

Doughboy on November 17, 2012 at 10:31 AM

Can anyone envision a scenario where we correct this fiscal mess without pain? Without recession?
As such, why not hold the line on all the tax cuts and raise all the Bush taxes on all level?

1. Bush isn’t Hitler. Bush is Hoover. Conservatives will never get good play in the media.
2. This is the only way to get verifiable deficit reduction.
3. Re-establishing that all Americans pay some Federal Income taxes will allow conservative arguments a better chance of finding receptive ears.
4. The GOP only has to present the case that “If the Democrats want to raise taxes, they can eliminate 100% of the Bush tax cut, not just 50%” Eliminating the Bush Tax Cuts for the Rich Meme is the only way to re-engage the citizens that conservative fiscal values will work. Otherwise the 47% are now the 51%.

fugitiveant on November 17, 2012 at 10:32 AM

LOL perhaps I shouldn’t read the sports pages before I rant politically. My bad.

Rockshine on November 17, 2012 at 10:33 AM

Don’t compare “the cliff” to a government shut-down. The cliff is not an abrupt event like the metaphor implies. The worst part people will be aware of is their paychecks getting smaller. That’s a harder thing to stick blame on the Republicans than a shut-down, just because the dynamics. It’ possible to stick more to the “Man in Charge”. No guarantees though.

Norbitz on November 17, 2012 at 10:35 AM

Let it go over the cliff. The Fascist-Democrat plan for tax hikes won’t work, we’ll have four more years of depression. Let them own it.

rbj on November 17, 2012 at 9:10 AM

You’ll notice how well that worked with FDR owning the worsening of the Depression.
Historians & others, like Newt, glorify him as being a great POTUS.
Obama will not own this & neither will the Dems.
The indoctrination is too complete.
There is no way this will happen given the level of ignorance present in this country.
And with technology & shiny things to distract the populace, it will never happen.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 10:36 AM

GOP plan should be MAD – Mutually Assured Destruction.
Democrats are putting the GOP in a position where they have noting to to lose. If they vote for tax increases, the Tea Party will crucify them. If they don’t, the media will. Either way, the media will blame the GOP for any bad outcome.
So look O in the eye and tell him they will burn it all down if he plays this game. The Fiscal Cliff happens, no vote to lower taxes unless it’s on everyone. No debt ceiling increase. No anything until there are real cuts in the budget.
Sure, the media will crucify them, but that’s baked into the cake.
The key to winning this thing is convincing Obama they mean it.

Curmudgeon on November 17, 2012 at 10:37 AM

All you can do at this point is protect yourself financially as best as possible and get out of the way.

Charlemagne on November 17, 2012 at 9:05 AM

And everyone poo-pawed the preppers. Looks like they were ahead of the learning curve.

chemman on November 17, 2012 at 10:37 AM

My view is that tax rates are a lot less permanent than Obamacare. We are probably going to lose this battle over higher taxes and if we were to win it we would own the economy. I know that everything is already blamed on us but the only way to convince this thick-headed country that higher taxes. 1) Don’t reduce the deficit 2) Cause job creators to pull back is to let it go.

a) Let the tax rates expire
b) Come back and lower them on the 98%
c) In 2 years and 4 years campiagn on the bad economy that was not cured by taxing the rich

I don’t see any other plan and I think Boehner doesn’t either which is why he is smiling. The Democrat assumption that they will come out of this smelling like roses with their base means we have a chance to grab more of the middle. It’s about our only hope anyway to change the country is to let it bottom out on Democrats watch.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 10:39 AM

They focused on the rise in health care premiums, but they should’ve covered the entire range of destructive elements within Obamacare. The layoffs, the reduction in hours for existing employees, tax hikes on the middle class(with specific examples), and the pending shortage of doctors.

In retrospect, they really should’ve run a far more negative campaign. Not in terms of attacking Obama, but rather in terms of scaring the crap out of voters(with as sunny a demeanor as possible) so they understood the ramifications of 4 more years. Remember that part of Palin’s 2008 convention speech where she told everyone Obama’s real agenda? We needed that every day on the campaign trail.

Doughboy on November 17, 2012 at 9:26 AM

Yep. Focusing on the rise of premiums which haven’t impacted most voters yet was a green eyeshade loser. And when they said BO took billions from Medicare to fund ObamaCare they failed to connect the dots to what this meant in real terms to the destruction of quality healthcare for Seniors (the mothers and grandmothers, fathers and grandfathers of voters). Voters are selfish and want their bennies but if it had been explained in simple terms how BO was screwing their family members it might have registered. Not to mention the probability most Seniors themselves have no idea what’s in store for them (thanks also to corrupt AARP and other BOcare co-conspirators).

Buy Danish on November 17, 2012 at 10:39 AM

We need House hearings on voter fraud!

JellyToast on November 17, 2012 at 8:54 AM

They had comprehensive hearings on how communists had infiltrated our government back in the day, with tons of evidence.

Look how that turned out.

IT’s a circus.

I believe they may just all be in this together to suck things dry.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 9:13 AM

And don’t forget that after the Democrats Stole the 1960 Presidential election in Illinois and Texas via voter and vote fraud, investigations occurred, and hundreds of Democrat operatives in Illinois were formally charged. But the vast majority of them were “pardoned” by Activist Democrat Judges in that state.

Del Dolemonte on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

I.AM.SO. DONE!!!!! My husband went from making 27.00 an hr. Then the housing bust happened and has been making 10.00 an hr. for the last 3 yrs. In the mean time I had to quit my job to take care of my grandson because my son committed suicide and his mother tried to kill herself. Childcare was going to be more than i made. WE HAVE NEVER ASKED FOR ANY HELP FROM THE STATE!!! But I am rethinking that position! I am of the mindset after this election, If you can”t beat em join em!

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 10:36 AM

If we have the same situation as FDR did then their isn’t a solution.

We can rescue the country from itself with just the House.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Obama has the GOP by the balls here, and I think they will have to give in. Obama holds all the big cards thanks to the voters.

At the end of four years of Obama this country will not only be in near ruins but the Obama team, with MSM help, with figure out a way to successfully convince the most of the public (esp. women voters who have mainly made Obama possible) to blame it on the rich & greedy Republicans and elect another democrat. I think we are probably doomed.

Chessplayer on November 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM

I burned my college allowance by having too many migraines to get past a two year degree. Now that I am more able to go to school, they are refusing to let me go back with assistance :) Miss one class, best grade a B, 2 a C 3 a D and 4 an F. College sucks.

astonerii on November 17, 2012 at 9:52 AM

IDK what your situation is, but if you need work guess what? The oil fields harken.
My daughter had migraines. Yet she is able to actually be productive.
I’m not trying to be insensitive to your plight. It’s unfortunate you did this to yourself.
Question is, how are you going to get past it?
And no, college is not necessary to be successful. I see this all around me is W. ND right now. There’s opportunity.
Grab it.

I am so sure now that you are not what you say you are. If you’re a Conservative TPers, I’ll eat my hat. You are such a full of shit Moby it’s not funny. You did nothing but depress the voter enthusiasim in the run up to the elections and now your every comment lends itself to obstructing any manner of coalesing of Conservatives.

And if by some quirk of reality you are a “Conservative” let me just offer that I think you’re the dumbest son of a b!tch on the planet.

hawkdriver on November 17, 2012 at 9:34 AM

The dumbass admitted voting for little Bammie during the post-election celebrations.

I’ve seen more than one troll around here trying to recover themselves with the ‘concerned conservative’ mantle since then.

slickwillie2001 on November 17, 2012 at 9:47 AM

I agree with hawk. I’ve watched Honda for several years now & at 1st he seemed reasonable, until his claws came out & the mask slipped. He’s got to be a lib plant. Bcs if not, hawk’s parting sentiment is the only other explanation.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM

I do wonder what O wants for his legacy. Right now I think he wants to leave a bureaucracy in place that will turn our country ever leftward, out of sight of Congress and the people. That’s why he increased spending so much for EPA, Labor, etc.

And Congress has proved only too willing to cede its authority to the permanent class bureaucrats. I hope the GOP sees the light this time.

I say, tax the rich, go along with Obama! And let the people see that it doesn’t work.

PattyJ on November 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM

When energy costs go up, unemployment increases, the deficit doubles, it will still be Bush’s fault. The wanters won and the givers will have to give more. We’re screwed, unless the luckiest bastard to ever hold the office has a Watergate moment.

Drill and Fill on November 17, 2012 at 10:43 AM

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

I think I read state help is like an $11/hr job.

Your story is why people don’t ever get off the dole.

Your standard of living is higher and you don’t spend 40/wk away from your familiy on assistance

N one would blame you if you asked for help.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM

And don’t forget that after the Democrats Stole the 1960 Presidential election in Illinois and Texas via voter and vote fraud, investigations occurred, and hundreds of Democrat operatives in Illinois were formally charged. But the vast majority of them were “pardoned” by Activist Democrat Judges in that state.

Del Dolemonte on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Investigate, arrest, charge them and jail them again! And if they get pardoned, arrest them and charge them again!

JellyToast on November 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM

Well Ms. Fox be sure to grab a knife.

They are not giving away things from kindness and they hate locke and love marx.

so if you want to stab the founding in the back get a knife as you go…..

and call on the abolition of the INS entirely.

This nation is done.

harlekwin15 on November 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM

say, tax the rich, go along with Obama! And let the people see that it doesn’t work.

PattyJ on November 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM

We are down to brute force to change the learning curve with the entitlement crowd. It really does have to burn down for them to learn anything if they haven’t after 4 years.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 10:46 AM

If we have the same situation as FDR did then their isn’t a solution.

We can rescue the country from itself with just the House.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

We’ll see. I think we need to rescue the country from itself. And I see no way to undo the socialist AKA communist indoctrination that has given us this mess.

And don’t forget that after the Democrats Stole the 1960 Presidential election in Illinois and Texas via voter and vote fraud, investigations occurred, and hundreds of Democrat operatives in Illinois were formally charged. But the vast majority of them were “pardoned” by Activist Democrat Judges in that state.

Del Dolemonte on November 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

I mention these historical footnotes to people & they don’t believe me. They think I am making this $hit up.
I challenge them to look it up. They won’t.
People enrage me. They do not f$%^ing care.
Apathy & selfishness & stupidity & ignorance have destroyed America.
And every other country that’s ever been & will be. Natural cycle. People just cannot be free.
They desire to be controlled like all animals in nature do.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 10:46 AM

That’s because things haven’t gotten anywhere near as bad as they will over the next 4 years. Take our current economic situation and tack on another $4-6 trillion in debt, higher taxes, higher unemployment, higher energy prices, higher premiums, and more people uninsured. Think the Democrat nominee in 2016 will still manage to garner 51% of the vote by blaming Bush?
Doughboy on November 17, 2012 at 10:14 AM

Sadly, YES! I talk to democrat voters all the time. Most are very educated, but you wouldn’t believe how dumb these people are.

Alabama Infidel on November 17, 2012 at 10:47 AM

BTW, we have a coyote hunt going on in the state today and tomorrow, I wanted say something snarky, but I might get in trouble.

Drill and Fill on November 17, 2012 at 10:48 AM

Give Obama his tax increase on the rich making over $250,000. But make them temporary and tie them to the statutory budget deadlines that Harry Reid doesn’t think are important Also ban continuing resolutions.

In short turn this into a win for the adults in the room.

meci on November 17, 2012 at 10:51 AM

If you are concerned about democratics stealing elections be sure to take a look at this, from a thread yesterday:

For your (and I recommend everyone’s) consideration: Why the GOP won’t challenge vote fraud.

ShainS on November 16, 2012 at 5:58 PM

slickwillie2001 on November 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM

BTW, we have a coyote hunt going on in the state today and tomorrow, I wanted say something snarky, but I might get in trouble.

Drill and Fill on November 17, 2012 at 10:48 AM

We’re starting to see a lot more coyotes. The nice ones. Not the ones with feral dog in them.
I hear they’re bringing like $20-30 a piece.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM

Investigate, arrest, charge them and jail them again! And if they get pardoned, arrest them and charge them again!

JellyToast on November 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM

CC: Eric Holder. Oh Wait! This won’t happen with him as A.G. Never mind.

One more post mortem GOP needs to fix NOW: When they talk about debt being passed on to their children this does not register with most voters. If you say they’ve inherited a debt of x hundreds of thousands of dollars, no one believes they’ll actually have to write a check in that amount to the Federal Government – because they won’t. How debt impacts our children must be explained.

Buy Danish on November 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM

We’ll see. I think we need to rescue the country from itself. And I see no way to undo the socialist AKA communist indoctrination that has given us this mess.

My view is the country didn’t elect Reagan till the last week when they had the alcoholic moment that they may not trust conservatives like Reagan but they know they need a change.

We all think Reagan changed minds and he did but it was mostly because of his success not his speeches.

The country is more stubborn and has more quite frankly losers than it did in 1980. It’s going to take 2 terms to get through to white suburban moms that they aren’t going to have a country left for thier kids if they don’t quit worrying about abortion that has gone nowhere to the right in 40 years. Same for college kids. 8 years at Starbuck’s better cure you on the Gay Marriage thing. You better realize a piece of paper for gays is not worth your life. Tragedy has a way of fixing the mind. You don’t see stories on the news about puppy mills when their is a natural disaster.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM

I am just very angry! My Husband will never ask for help! He has a really bad back and works 7 days a week at two jobs that are very physical,and i just wonder why we are busting our butt while their are so many sitting on theirs and getting paid!

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 10:56 AM

The worst thing Republicans could do is cut a deal that throws Obama a life preserver.

At the end of the day, Americans will instinctively understand that Democrats in power means higher taxes. It will also be an incredible headwind to the economy that will also fall on Obama’s shoulders.

No matter what happens, Obama will try and blame Republicans, but it’s clearly a failure of leadership on Obama’s part.

Had Republicans refused to cut a deal with an extension of the Bush tax cuts in 2010, Obama would have been a one term President with a middle class tax increase.

Let’s not be the Stupid Party again.

BradTank on November 17, 2012 at 10:57 AM

ShainS on November 16, 2012 at 5:58 PM

slickwillie2001 on November 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM

Really? Why isn’t the news talking about this?//

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 10:58 AM

I am just very angry! My Husband will never ask for help! He has a really bad back and works 7 days a week at two jobs that are very physical,and i just wonder why we are busting our butt while their are so many sitting on theirs and getting paid!

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 10:56 AM

Bcs you are decent moral people.
My husband has a bad back & we still ranch & he still drives truck commercially.
We could get public assistance, even though we own 2 businesses & land etc.
We don’t bcs it’s not right.
I joke about going on welfare, but I would never do it. I joke about doing it to starve the beast. But I would never do it.
Bcs I will never be that person who spouts conservatism in one breath & ask for a handout in the next.
Don’t you do it either. You have self respect.
This is how tyranny begins. When enough people give in & shrug their shoulders & give up.
Doing the right thing is hard. If it weren’t, everybody would be good people.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 11:02 AM

If you are concerned about democratics stealing elections be sure to take a look at this, from a thread yesterday:

For your (and I recommend everyone’s) consideration: Why the GOP won’t challenge vote fraud.

ShainS on November 16, 2012 at 5:58 PM
slickwillie2001 on November 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM

WOW! The Stupid Party has been the stupid party longer than I thought.

Alabama Infidel on November 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM

LOL perhaps I shouldn’t read the sports pages before I rant politically. My bad.

Rockshine on November 17, 2012 at 10:33 AM

I have family in Columbia. I thought it was funny but I don’t understand people’s obsession with college sports. I went to a small private college and no one ever cared or expected the sports teams to do well. lol

Fallon on November 17, 2012 at 11:04 AM

Anybody expecting seriousness, leadership, or competence to come out of any Washington DC entity during the next 4 years is bound to be deeply disappointed.

Strap yourselves in: We are going to have a bumpy ride.

Prepare accordingly.

Mutnodjmet on November 17, 2012 at 11:04 AM

If you are concerned about democratics stealing elections be sure to take a look at this, from a thread yesterday:

For your (and I recommend everyone’s) consideration: Why the GOP won’t challenge vote fraud.

ShainS on November 16, 2012 at 5:58 PM

slickwillie2001 on November 17, 2012 at 10:52 AM

Has this been run through Snopes? Nope, it’s not there… Hmmm.

Fallon on November 17, 2012 at 11:09 AM

And everyone poo-pawed the preppers. Looks like they were ahead of the learning curve.

chemman on November 17, 2012 at 10:37 AM

Sure looks that way now doesn’t it?

CorporatePiggy on November 17, 2012 at 11:14 AM

To the person that mentioned apathy. We are well past apathy and in dependency, fast approaching bondage. There is no getting off this train. And we no longer control the speed.

Carnac on November 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM

When things do not get better when taxes are raised on the rich, we won’t have success by saying “see, we told you”.

They will win with the argument that taxes weren’t raised enough and they need to be increased further. Just like their argument that TARP wasn’t big enough.

Carnac on November 17, 2012 at 11:24 AM

Mutnodjmet on November 17, 2012 at 11:04 AM

It a long way off but one difference between us and Europe is the WHOLE country went along with free ride in the case of the Europeans. Here on this board and on talk radio you can see angry mob of millions that in 4 years will want to almost kill the other half of the country for all the misery.

How does that play out?

How do the takers and liberals keep a lid on this country in 2016?

This is what gives me what I loosely call “hope”

This is a VERY different situation in the US with half the voting public not down with this.

The only thing I can compare it to is the 1960′s when the 13% of the black population rose up and said NO MORE.

We are much more numerous than the black population. What form will America take in this hostile situation?

I am thinking the MSM and democrats think it is just going to happen without serious objections that our lives are downgraded.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 11:26 AM

And lest anyone forget, DHS purchased 1.5 billion rounds of hollow point bullets last year for a reason.

Carnac on November 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Badger 40- It is just hard, every pay it’s like what groceries do we get, what bill do we pay,everything we need to take care of a 2 yr. old. At 53 yrs. old it just feels like survival!!! I feel SO BAD for my husband. He doesn’t deserve this. He voted for the first time in his life because he is so concerned.I want to move to Montana and have a chicken farm!! HA HA!

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Montana has 2 Democrat senators and a Democrat Governor. Both Senators voted for Obamacare and one was just re-elected. I don’t know if there is anyone who is really immune from progressives.

Conan on November 17, 2012 at 11:32 AM

And lest anyone forget, DHS purchased 1.5 billion rounds of hollow point bullets last year for a reason.

Carnac on November 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Actually they put out an RFP for .40 cal pistol rounds, not a purchase order.

BFD.

CorporatePiggy on November 17, 2012 at 11:35 AM

If we were younger it would be the Balkin fields in the Dakotas!!! We live in the Akron, Oh. area.All Dems! IT SUCKS!!!!

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 11:39 AM

At the end of four years of Obama this country will not only be in near ruins but the Obama team, with MSM help, with figure out a way to successfully convince the most of the public (esp. women voters who have mainly made Obama possible) to blame it on the rich & greedy Republicans and elect another democrat. I think we are probably doomed.

Chessplayer on November 17, 2012 at 10:42 AM

No we’re not. Rand predicted all of this because she saw what happened to the Soviet Union under Lenin before she fled and was frightened that it could happened here, and it is.

And it will, but as she prophesied in Atlas Shrugged, the producers are hiding their wealth, moving overseas, letting people go, or going Galt with their wealth.

Nobody has to submit to a looter state run on fiat money forever. Eventually, the house of cards comes crashing down. The flaw in progressive thinking is that this political economy can go on for a protracted period of time.

It will last until the Chinese and the Bond Vigilantes pull the plug.

victor82 on November 17, 2012 at 11:39 AM

Wasn’t it JugEars plan all along to collapse the economy ala Cloward-Piven?

sandspur on November 17, 2012 at 10:00 AM

Yep, and …

They know what their goal is… Alinsky told them

The goal is to foment enough public discontent, moral confusion, and outright chaos to spark the social upheaval that Marx, Engels, and Lenin predicted

— a revolution whose foot soldiers view the status quo as fatally flawed and wholly unworthy of salvation. Thus, the theory goes, the people will settle for nothing less than that status quo’s complete collapse

— to be followed by the erection of an entirely new system upon its ruins. Toward that end, they will be apt to follow the lead of charismatic radical organizers

Do we know? Complete collapse.

faraway on November 17, 2012 at 10:04 AM

yep. This is the real endgame.

PatriotGal2257 on November 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM

CC: Eric Holder. Oh Wait! This won’t happen with him as A.G. Never mind.

One more post mortem GOP needs to fix NOW: When they talk about debt being passed on to their children this does not register with most voters. If you say they’ve inherited a debt of x hundreds of thousands of dollars, no one believes they’ll actually have to write a check in that amount to the Federal Government – because they won’t. How debt impacts our children must be explained.

Buy Danish on November 17, 2012 at 10:54 AM

God give us in our leaders the kind of grit and persistence the leaders on the left have! We do not lack resources! We do not lack ideals! Our numbers are not our weakness! Our despair and fear and apathy are!

God if only, if only our side was as determined as their side we would alter the political landscape in America for a hundred years to come! The words of our founders would be emblazoned in marble in our schools instead of hidden away out of fear and embarrassment in our hearts!

JellyToast on November 17, 2012 at 11:41 AM

/BUCK FARACK/

Nutstuyu on November 17, 2012 at 11:42 AM

The fiscal cliff deal came in exchange for a one time debt limit raise.

Let us go over the cliff.

Don’t raise the debt limit.

It was a one time raise, after all, with all sides negotiating in good faith.

This is what Obama wanted.

Give it to him.

Tell him no spending beyond what is taken in because it is, after all, what he asked for and he can double down and get to a zero deficit after his lovely not getting to one half the deficit when he came into office.

Fair is fair.

A deal is a deal.

ajacksonian on November 17, 2012 at 11:42 AM

The Soros mandate (to Obama) is to destroy the dollar by spending the USA into a hyperinflation.
Everything he does is towards that end.

esblowfeld on November 17, 2012 at 11:46 AM

JZ’s premise is that the GOP will be blamed by the majority no matter what it does or what happens, so Dear Leader will not compromise.

I don’t accept that premise. If this is true now wasn’t it also true 15 months ago when Obama walked away from the table? Nothing has changed. The electorate voted for the status quo. It reelected Obama by a narrow margin but it also reelected a majority GOP House.

But if it is true then all is lost anyway, considering the electorate voted for trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and that whatever cuts Obama accepts will be in the future and never happen, while Obamacare all by itself will drive up unemployment and probably trigger another recession. The government accounting is all screwed up, GDP and tax revenue projections are overly optimistic, and the real costs of Obamacare are only beginning to become known.

So the GOP should call Obama on it and let the chips fall where they may, pointing out that raising the tax rate on a very small percentage of the 50% of people who already pay income taxes will do little to nothing to fix the deficit. It is the best of bad options.

farsighted on November 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM

Let’s put the blame and credit where it belongs.

Bush wasted 7 1/2 years in Afghanistan, billions of dollars, and thousands of Americans were either killed or injured in a politically correct “war” that we had no intention of winning.

Bush also let additional millions of Americans get by without having to pay ANY Federal income taxes. Thus helping to expand the number of Americans that don’t pay anything.

Bush also spent years and billions and American blood on a war in Iraq over “WMD’s” that sorry to say……where the heck were they in the volumes that we were led to believe. #fail.

Bush also grew the power of the Federal government and expanded freebies including a prescription drug benefit (that he gets no political credit for).

He also got the TARP and auto-bailouts going (and got nothing for it politically for it).

He also “abandoned the free market to save it” back in 2008.

Bush also was silent for 8 long years defending himself and let himself be tarred and feathered in the media.

Bush also first received information on where Bin Laden might be several years before Obama had him taken out. We blame Obama for jacking around for months but what the heck was Bush doing? They were too scared of the Pakistanis or something to go in there and get him? HUH?

Bush appointed John Roberts the deciding vote to end individual liberty in this country (upholding Obamacare).


When Obama blames Bush…..lets’ face it. He has a point.

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM

My taxes won’t go up but my husbands employer’s will. So does that mean he loses his job because they are cutting employees to save money?

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 11:52 AM

….and we seriously believe that if Romney had won that the gop would actually do what they (Boehner/McConnell) say they would do?

#notconvinced #neitherwerevoters #gopfail

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 11:52 AM

Actually i think this is exactly what Obama wants.

he does not have to do anything and gets big tax increases.

and then he can blame republicans.

gerrym51 on November 17, 2012 at 12:00 PM

My taxes won’t go up but my husbands employer’s will. So does that mean he loses his job because they are cutting employees to save money?

sure they will go up. the ss tax that was decreased will go back to 6.4 percent

and the bush tax cuts lowered the lowest rate from 15 to 10. it will go back to 15 percent.

gerrym51 on November 17, 2012 at 12:03 PM

I don’t believe Obama wants a deal either, but there is one major problem with a strategy to go over the cliff. Once we’ve gone over the cliff, and the GOP is blamed, the GOP will then have absolutely NO incentive to compromise.

If the GOP is going to get blood all over its hands and take a huge hit publicly, the party might as well stand firm until Obama and the Dems cave. Obama may not get the blame, but he’d get something worse – public humiliation.

The Bringer on November 17, 2012 at 12:03 PM

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM

in fairness to George Bush 9/11 did happen

gerrym51 on November 17, 2012 at 12:04 PM

Badger 40- It is just hard, every pay it’s like what groceries do we get, what bill do we pay,everything we need to take care of a 2 yr. old. At 53 yrs. old it just feels like survival!!! I feel SO BAD for my husband. He doesn’t deserve this. He voted for the first time in his life because he is so concerned.I want to move to Montana and have a chicken farm!! HA HA!

lisa fox on November 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM

My dear I will pray for you & your family.
We often have those very same problems. We ranch, so always have meat. But we often struggle to pay for utilities. So we burn wood all the time for heat to help with that. My husband is 43yo & has worked physically very hard since he was about 8yo farming & ranching with his dad.
My husband & I use horses to work our cows & that makes our life physically much easier. But he still works so hard on the ground driving truck, fixing mechanical problems in the truck which requires great strength sometime. Fixing haying equipment & nursing old falling apart equipment is physically demanding. I work physically hard as well,but not like he does.
It’s what men do lisa. You do what you can to survive. It has always been this way. You just have to find ways to survive. I try not to spend much on groceries myself. I have found many costcutting ways.
BTW, if MT is a destination for you, just know the Western part is liberal. Very liberal. And the eastern part is oil country now. Hard to find a place to live.
I like where I live in SW ND. We are on the outside edge of the oil boom. People have been moving here from many states over the last decade buying houses in the middle of farm country & hiding.
Some of them are neighbors to me.
My own father moved from Gresham OR to a tiny town nearby & he is insanely happy now.
Life is simpler here even though things are still hard.
Out of the city, they seem much less harder for some reason.
Good luck to you & your family.
~prayers~

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 12:13 PM

Yes, and Bush did some good things.

mmmmmmm, the only thing that I can think of is 9/11 he took it to them. That’s a big thing no doubt but on domestic politics, huge failure.

And even in foreign policy he looked into Putins’ soul. My gosh, what a dumb dumb thing to say.

Domestically, he gave us “No Child left behind” which is Federal control of education (and he got no “credit” from the media for it).

He also started the TSA and stood by and played footsie with the Muslim community by letting Granny be searched and million like her but wouldn’t just profile muslim males under 40.

He didn’t enforce the border. In fact he tried Amnesty instead.

He tried to appoint Harriet Meiers and only when the Right got all over him did he back off and appoint Alito.


9/11 is a great accomplishment but as far as I can remember that’s it.

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 12:13 PM

Taxing the rich was a key factor in the majority vote? Figures. Isn’t it amazing how it’s perfectly acceptable for one segment of the populace based on its own self-interest to determine how another segment will be taxed. Those same voters still blame Bush for the lousy economy. This combination of low intelligence, low information and what-is-government-going-to-do-for-me mindset is lethal.

I think the Republicans should go to the president and ask “what is it you really, really want” and then give to him. There is no way out of this until Obama actually owns this economy. I thought he already did, but apparently I was wrong. His supporters deserve nothing less. The rest of us will have to suffer along.

SukieTawdry on November 17, 2012 at 12:14 PM

R=stupid party
D=evil party

Evil is winning pretty easily. This nation is doomed.

SteveThomas on November 17, 2012 at 12:17 PM

JZ’s premise is that the GOP will be blamed by the majority no matter what it does or what happens, so Dear Leader will not compromise.

I don’t accept that premise. If this is true now wasn’t it also true 15 months ago when Obama walked away from the table? Nothing has changed. The electorate voted for the status quo. It reelected Obama by a narrow margin but it also reelected a majority GOP House.

But if it is true then all is lost anyway, considering the electorate voted for trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and that whatever cuts Obama accepts will be in the future and never happen, while Obamacare all by itself will drive up unemployment and probably trigger another recession. The government accounting is all screwed up, GDP and tax revenue projections are overly optimistic, and the real costs of Obamacare are only beginning to become known.

So the GOP should call Obama on it and let the chips fall where they may, pointing out that raising the tax rate on a very small percentage of the 50% of people who already pay income taxes will do little to nothing to fix the deficit. It is the best of bad options.

farsighted on November 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM

Twelve days ago I probably would have agreed with you, but then the colossal national goat-buggering election happened.

It now seems clear that nothing short of absolute economic meltdown (if that) will convince a majority of the electorate that there is no such thing as a government-provided free lunch.

MidniteRambler on November 17, 2012 at 12:23 PM

We should let obeyme and the dems have their way. let obama raise taxes as much as he wants. house repubs vote present and say the country voted for this so let the dems own it, really own it, like they own obamacare. as the econ falls into ruin and the truth of obamacare is beginning to be felt, then and only then can conservatives win. the masses of idiots who voted for the kardashian president will only change their ways when they feel pain. letting dems raise taxes and implement obamacare will cause this pain acutely.

phillysfinest on November 17, 2012 at 12:42 PM

We should go off the cliff because it’s the only thing that will lower the deficit.

Why worry about how this will play politically?

jhffmn on November 17, 2012 at 12:45 PM

the masses of idiots who voted for the kardashian president will only change their ways when they feel pain. letting dems raise taxes and implement obamacare will cause this pain acutely.

phillysfinest on November 17, 2012 at 12:42 PM

It did not happen with FDR & it won’t happen with Obama.
FDR caused the ruination of this country & they still hail how great he was on both sides of the aisle.
I’m afraid there is no fixing this bcs good men stand by & do nothing.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM

Bush also spent years and billions and American blood on a war in Iraq over “WMD’s” that sorry to say……where the heck were they in the volumes that we were led to believe. #fail.

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM

You really need to take the time to read in in its entirety the 2002 Iraq Resolution. “WMD’s” were only 1 out of at least a dozen reasons that Congress signed off on it.

Del Dolemonte on November 17, 2012 at 12:52 PM

R=stupid party
D=evil party

Evil is winning pretty easily. This nation is doomed.

SteveThomas on November 17, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Thurston Howell III Republicans doing their dirty work.

I am disgusted by the Republican Party and it’s current Democrat Lite leadership.

2010 The Tea Party Conservatives had the biggest upset ever. But Stupid Republicans can not remember that and are in denial it even happened. Pure stupidity.

Steveangell on November 17, 2012 at 1:00 PM

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 12:50 PM

Much different circumstances. the country had been in a depression since 29. the masses saw roosevelt as leading us out of it eventually altho we know better. but now, there isn’t enough pain. i’m saying 4 more years of no growth, massive unemployment, problems with obamacare will cause the necessary pain to persuade 2-5% of the electorate to give the repubs a chance.

phillysfinest on November 17, 2012 at 1:03 PM

Let’s say we go over the cliff and the Bush tax cuts end for everyone, why would someone then think Obama would bring back tax relief for anyone?

He’s a lame duck. He doesn’t have to compromise. His goal isn’t to gain favor, his goal is to crash the US into the ground. He could care less if Dems go down with him and hurt their own re-elections. Obama can’t be re-elected so why would he care about others?

He doesn’t care and has zero incentive to reinstate tax cuts for anyone.

This is the chaos he’s been looking to create! Bankrupt the country, then blame someone else. That’s his MO. You can’t become a dictator if people still have money in their pockets.

He will gleefully watch the US crash and burn over the fiscal cliff. Why would he do anything to change that once the damage is done?

The Red Pill on November 17, 2012 at 1:03 PM

I’d take that poll with somewhat a grain of salt. It’s not that it looks inherently wrong, I have seen other polls with majorities wanting taxes raised on, “the rich,” but generally the numbers haven’t been dramatic. Honestly if I had the time I’d track that poll down and check their wording, because I suspect that would explain why their numbers are so much more dramatic.

Here’s the thing, we haven’t been doing a good job selling low taxes lately. To a degree this cannot be helped, unlike Democrats, Republicans don’t really have a national level spokesman right now, and they certainly don’t have somebody whose every word is repeatedly by an adoring uncritical media.

Some of it is our fault however. For example, whenever democrats talk about raising taxes, they don’t say, “raising taxes,” they say “raising taxes on the rich,” or, “making the rich pay their fair share.”

In other words, democrats use every chance they get to try to sell their policy. We, on the other hands, tend to get lost in the minutia of policy detail, or worse, have casually assumed that we would always have the advantage on tax policy.

The fact of the matter is, even if you have an advantage on a policy, you cannot stop selling it. Whenever we have we’ve consistently lost ground on an issue.

So, for example, what a Republican spokesman should say, anytime they’re asked, is say, “We will hike taxes on small business owners!”

Detailed policy can come after that, but first you need to strike out on the offense and put forward the more popular objection to raising taxes.

Of course, Democrats will assert that, a lot of people affected aren’t small business owners, and will try to pivot back to focusing on the rich, but whenever small business owners are mentioned they’d be put on the defense, which is where we are right now.

Mind you, I’m just one commentator on a single blog among the many that make up the conservative blogosphere. I have no doubt that my advice on tactics will go completely unheeded, at least until somebody with more influence has the same thought.

Still, I needed to say it. The reason we’ve lost ground on so many fronts is because we’ve allowed democrats to dominate the argument. We keep trying to govern responsibly, while they play politics. Yes, mind you, our side needs to govern responsibly, but we cannot let them dominate the field either.

WolvenOne on November 17, 2012 at 1:19 PM

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM

Get stuffed!

Quit whining and sniveling about Bush all the time.

You’re becoming tiresome and boring.

Solaratov on November 17, 2012 at 1:25 PM

You really need to take the time to read in in its entirety the 2002 Iraq Resolution. “WMD’s” were only 1 out of at least a dozen reasons that Congress signed off on it.

Del Dolemonte on November 17, 2012 at 12:52 PM

Obama lied through his teeth about Libya but that is no problem even though he lied about intelligence.

Bush never lied that is what the intelligence said.

But Bush is the problem and Obama is just fine.

But indeed Iraq was a hot war. They fired at our planed almost daily. They never lived up to the cease fire at the end of the first war. WMD was minor reason for the second.

That said. We are a constitutional republic. China and the former USSR democracies. WTF was Bush thinking fighting Iraq to bring about a new China or USSR Democracy? He had no valid end game. Democracy is just a fancy word for Communism. Democratic Republic of Cuba for example. I am sorry but you have to put a Dictator in charge of Islamic countries. Their religion demands they fight us and all others not of their particular form of Islam. Peace and Islam are polar opposites.

Steveangell on November 17, 2012 at 1:27 PM

Get stuffed!

Quit whining and sniveling about Bush all the time.

You’re becoming tiresome and boring.

Solaratov on November 17, 2012 at 1:25 PM

Saul Alinsky.

If you lose the argument attack attack attack.

Go to the DNC that is where you belong.

Steveangell on November 17, 2012 at 1:29 PM

Much different circumstances. the country had been in a depression since 29. the masses saw roosevelt as leading us out of it eventually altho we know better. but now, there isn’t enough pain. i’m saying 4 more years of no growth, massive unemployment, problems with obamacare will cause the necessary pain to persuade 2-5% of the electorate to give the repubs a chance.

phillysfinest on November 17, 2012 at 1:03 PM

Bush’s depression & Obama leading everyone out of the wilderness bcs none of it was his fault & he needs more than 4 years to fix it all.
I will agree with you that there is not enough pain bcs before FDR, there weren’t the social programs like we have now.
So the pain will have to get really bad.
But even then, notice how the elctorate turned to FDR’s big government solutions to save them from the Depression?
The Depression turned into a huge disaster bcs of FDR.
People knew it then like they know it now & you’re hearing crickets.
IT really is the same.
The minor details that are different does not make that lesson any less applicable to now.

Badger40 on November 17, 2012 at 1:41 PM

Obama can do whatever he wants. Just look at the irresponsible, criminal WH over the last 4 years and he got reelected! People seem to believe his lies. Yes, Americans have proven themselves more ignorant than even I, cynic that I am, would have believed.

I’m watching the talking heads and all the Donkeys are singing in unison. Fiscal cliff, fiscal shmiff, as long as the rich pay more we’ll all be just ducky. I don’t think they’re bluffing, I think that they really are that stupid as well.

We will see the return of higher rates for all of us, the AMT netting more of us, the payroll tax holiday (gimmick that it is) going away, the return of the death tax, the return of higher capital gains and dividends taxes, etc. I see a recession coming and I see Nero practicing his chords on the violin. Good times. Good times.

MJBrutus on November 17, 2012 at 1:58 PM

PappyD61 on November 17, 2012 at 12:13 PM

my point is 9/11 changed everything.

we would not have gone into afghanistan. Bush would not have gotten congress to invade Iraq.
We would not have spent gazillions with additional security .

I am not saying Bush is perfect but WE(the public) act as if 9/11 did not happen.

gerrym51 on November 17, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Give the Dems and libs and leftists everything that they want.
Make them own it.
Let them suffer the consequences of their actions.
Force them to know unambiguously who is responsible.

Just like Obamacare.
Everyone knows who owns that.
When people feel the pain of it, they will know where it came from.

L.I.B.

justltl on November 17, 2012 at 2:14 PM

It’s the Obama M.O. – delegate and then blame everyone but himself when it doesn’t happen.

sadatoni on November 17, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Protect and help your family, your conservative friends and yourselves through the fire.
Don’t even piss on a burning Dem.

justltl on November 17, 2012 at 2:21 PM

Just like the proverbial frog, we don’t realize how much we’ve been boiled.
Look at where the country is now.
I don’t even want it where it is now, let alone where it’s heading.

justltl on November 17, 2012 at 2:26 PM

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