Awkward video of the day: Netanyahu congratulates Obama on winning

posted at 8:55 pm on November 7, 2012 by Allahpundit

Via WaPo, enjoy Bibi struggling mightily to keep a straight face as he coughs up the requisite diplomatic niceties for his “friend” Barack on the morning after. As if the famously strained Obama/Netanyahu relationship didn’t make this awkward enough, note that that’s U.S. ambassador Dan Shapiro standing next to him. Remember him? The guy who had an “explosive confrontation” with Netanyahu over Iran’s nuclear program in front of House Intel Committee chair Mike Rogers just two months ago? Only Romney himself was less enthusiastic about congratulating The One than Netanyahu.

Here’s how bad it is:

Another Likud lawmaker said that “Obama is not good for Israel and we’re concerned that he will try to pressure Israel into making concessions because of his chilly relationship with Netanyahu.”

According to a senior Likud official, the Prime Minister’s Office was alarmed by the negative reactions to Obama’s re-election, which could intensify the cold relationship between the two leaders – and therefore decided to begin damage control and prevent uncoordinated responses.

On Wednesday afternoon, the ministers’ spokespersons and advisors received text messages from Netanyahu’s office, asking them not to comment about Obama’s re-election. The Likud spokespersons were requested to stick with the statements issued by Netanyahu’s office.

I assume that explains why Bibi’s office insisted on recording this otherwise banal, perfunctory moment for posterity and YouTubing it. It’s a small goodwill gesture, likely designed for a domestic audience more so than an American one in order to reassure Israelis that Netanyahu’s not jeopardizing their relationship with the U.S. That could be dangerous for him at home, especially with Obama occasionally signaling Israelis otherwise.

According to a poll published last week, Israeli Jews favored Romney over Obama — by 35 points.


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Speak the truth Bibi, please…

tom daschle concerned on November 7, 2012 at 8:57 PM

Hang in there, Bibi. The rest of the world needs you, even if the Lightworker does not.

hillbillyjim on November 7, 2012 at 8:59 PM

Now he has to protect his poor nation from TWO threats, Iran and the Obamanation…

AM YISROEL CHAI!

Janovus on November 7, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Eh, who cares. Israel is a sovereign nation. Let her handle her own affairs instead of coming to us cap in hand.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:00 PM

The Isreali’s may be the only people in the world more screwed than the American’s were by yesterday’s election.

trigon on November 7, 2012 at 9:01 PM

All I got left anymore is Texas and Israel, and I’m not even a Jew.

TXUS on November 7, 2012 at 9:05 PM

“Yeah..uh thanks there, Beee Beeeee but I gotta go, my bud Mamoud is on the other line.”

-Dog Eating Coward

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:08 PM

OT:

Egypt prosecutor orders ban on online pornography

Online pornography….the crack of Islamic world.

BobMbx on November 7, 2012 at 9:09 PM

So not looking fw to the QOTD tonight…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM

Here’s hoping both Israel and the USA survive the next four years.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM

Eh, who cares. Israel is a sovereign nation. Let her handle her own affairs instead of coming to us cap in hand.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Can we make that retroactive to:

France
England
Belgium
Poland
Austria
Italy

and many more.

What a wonderful world this would be.

BobMbx on November 7, 2012 at 9:11 PM

Israel & Iran will be at war with each other by some point in the next 4 years.

topdawg on November 7, 2012 at 9:12 PM

Eh, who cares. Israel is a sovereign nation. Let her handle her own affairs instead of coming to us cap in hand.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Yes, let’s leave our only strategic ally in the region to fend for itself, surrounded by hundreds of millions of salivating haters.

blatantblue on November 7, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Obama is already secretly( or not so secretly) negotiating with Iran behind Israel’s back..they have Valerie Jarret supposedly is there hanging out having a good time with them..I predict in a few weeks Israel will attack Iran and honestly i hope they do

sadsushi on November 7, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Eh, who cares. Israel is a sovereign nation. Let her handle her own affairs instead of coming to us cap in hand.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Unlike Obama and apparently unlike you, I do care deeply about what happens to our allies. Besides, there is precisely one stable, democratic, civilized country in that part of the world. I’d like them to remain there.

SoRight on November 7, 2012 at 9:15 PM

With Val J in secret talks with Iran nothing good for Israel will come from 0bama.

derft on November 7, 2012 at 9:15 PM

Netanyahu is about to have to kiss Baracks big **Beyonce.

He’s such a Mitch!!

**Thanks Ms. Knowles for the Tumblr pic.

PappyD61 on November 7, 2012 at 9:16 PM

Here’s hoping both Israel and the USA survive the next four years.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM

Prayers ascending, just keep praying…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:17 PM

Bibi looks as though he would rather punch Shapiro in the throat.

ghostwalker1 on November 7, 2012 at 9:18 PM

If Jews in Fla don’t care if Iran incinerates Israel….. Why should we as a nation care ?

This maybe one thing Ocommie gets right…….Why take the heat if the Jewish people are so indifferent about Iran.

Let it play out without us getting involved.

FlaMurph on November 7, 2012 at 9:18 PM

Can we make that retroactive to:

France
England
Belgium
Poland
Austria
Italy

and many more.

What a wonderful world this would be.

BobMbx on November 7, 2012 at 9:11 PM

We can’t make it retroactive, but we can certainly make it current.

Unlike Obama and apparently unlike you, I do care deeply about what happens to our allies. Besides, there is precisely one stable, democratic, civilized country in that part of the world. I’d like them to remain there.

SoRight on November 7, 2012 at 9:15 PM

Good for you. So how about you quit sanctioning the seizure of my property through coercion and force in order to give it to your “allies”?

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:18 PM

Ugh.

Corporal Tunnel on November 7, 2012 at 9:19 PM

Prayers ascending, just keep praying…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:17 PM

Actually I’m more worried about us than Israel. We already know that Israel has a pretty big “in” with Big Guy.

Hey I saw that NE went all red – every county. That has to feel good.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:19 PM

From Todays State Department!
==============================

Victoria Nuland
Spokesperson
Daily Press Briefing
Washington, DC
November 7, 2012
****************

MIDDLE EAST PEACE PROCESS

Close Work with UN Envoy Tony Blair / Goals
***********************************************

TRANSCRIPT:
12:52 p.m. EST
**************

MS. NULAND: All right, everybody. Into the future. I have nothing at the top. Happy Wednesday.

QUESTION: Foreign policy initiatives, what’s top of the agenda for the Administration now?

MS. NULAND: Well, I think we need to – we just had an election last night. There are people who were up a lot of the night counting and enjoying it, so I’m not going to stand here and make any big predictions on the second term. I think we’ll let the President take the lead on those things.

QUESTION: Victoria, I just heard Mr. Tony Blair speak from Jerusalem and saying that the environment was quite propitious, actually, to pursue a very active and energetic peace process led by the United States of America with the reelection of the President. Do you concur with the former British Prime Minister?

MS. NULAND: Well, as you know, we work very closely with Tony Blair in his role as the UN’s envoy on all of these matters and will continue to do so. Our goals are identical. We want to see these parties get to the negotiating table and we will continue to work to facilitate that, but I don’t have anything particularly new to announce today, Said.

QUESTION: Will the Administration pursue the two-state solution as vigorously as it has in the past four years?

MS. NULAND: Again, all of you guys are going to be looking today for brand-new initiatives for the second term. We’re going to let the President speak to his priorities before we start being highly predictive here.

QUESTION: So lastly, just to clarify, do you believe that the State Department or Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, before his presumed departure, will sort of launch a new initiative for the – in particular for the Palestinian-Israeli peace process?

MS. NULAND: I think we’re going to continue to work very vigorously. She has her personal diplomacy that she does with the parties. I think that will continue, as will all of our efforts, but in terms of anything new to announce today, Said, I don’t have anything new to announce at the moment.
(More….)

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2012/11/200251.htm
====================================================

VIDEO:(31:04)

Daily Press Briefing – November 7, 2012

Nov. 7, 2012: U.S. Department of State Daily Press Briefing by Spokesperson Victoria

http://video.state.gov/en/video/1954229652001

canopfor on November 7, 2012 at 9:20 PM

The neocons will hate me saying it but still – THIS is why you don’t run ads in the Florida election if you’re a foreign head of state.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:20 PM

So not looking fw to the QOTD tonight…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM

Quite a few people here laying low right now. It’s depressing.

Corporal Tunnel on November 7, 2012 at 9:20 PM

Hey I saw that NE went all red – every county. That has to feel good.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:19 PM

Yeah, kind of bittersweet, though. You are always welcome here…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:21 PM

So how about you quit sanctioning the seizure of my property through coercion and force in order to give it to your “allies”?

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:18 PM

What makes it yours?

I would assume the law and the ‘men with guns’ who would enforce that same law if someone stole it.

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:22 PM

Here’s hoping both Israel and the USA survive the next four years.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM

.
Again, why do I care if the people in the US and Israel don’t want U.S. intervention ?

It’s time to let Israel go. Here’s a phony red line for ya. Time for the Israeli’s to give into the Arabs.

FlaMurph on November 7, 2012 at 9:22 PM

Quite a few people here laying low right now. It’s depressing.

Corporal Tunnel on November 7, 2012 at 9:20 PM

Yep, I have noticed that today…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:22 PM

Quite a few people here laying low right now. It’s depressing.

Corporal Tunnel on November 7, 2012 at 9:20 PM

I was going to stay away for a lot longer but I feel a lot better than I did 24 hours ago. I’m still angry to the point of seeing red but I’m not going to let them win.

I actually have to credit some wimpy guy on my Facebook page whining about the Republicans compromising for making me “snap out of it”.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:23 PM

OK … that’s enough of that SH!T … let’s go eat a burger.

ORrighty on November 7, 2012 at 9:24 PM

Yeah, kind of bittersweet, though. You are always welcome here…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:21 PM

:) I have started my search for a new “gopherhole”. The redder the better.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:24 PM

:) I have started my search for a new “gopherhole”. The redder the better.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:24 PM

Our winters will make you feel right at home…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:26 PM

What makes it yours?

I would assume the law and the ‘men with guns’ who would enforce that same law if someone stole it.

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:22 PM

What makes my earned wealth mine? Are you serious?

No. Property rights are natural rights.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:26 PM

Here’s hoping both Israel and the USA survive the next four years.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:10 PM

gophergirl:Exactly,and I think,Isreal knows,shes on her own,
from US Democrats,but I’m betting the US Military,
wouldn’t stand down,if she was going to be over-run!:)

canopfor on November 7, 2012 at 9:29 PM

:) I have started my search for a new “gopherhole”. The redder the better.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:24 PM

Try this, I’ve been there only a few weeks but it’s good:

http://www.theblogmocracy.com/

Or this if you want completely off the wall, very un-PC humor:

http://peacemoonbeam.typepad.com/bighairynews/

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:31 PM

No. Property rights are natural rights.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:26 PM

So the magical Gaia fairy just grants them to you with a swish of her sparkly wand?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:32 PM

Or were you talking about an actual physical place? In that case we should ride-share out of town.

As soon as the full extent of the DFL takeover manifests itself, I will have already put in motion the process of finding a way out.

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:33 PM

Try this, I’ve been there only a few weeks but it’s good:

http://www.theblogmocracy.com/

Or this if you want completely off the wall, very un-PC humor:

http://peacemoonbeam.typepad.com/bighairynews/

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Actually I meant moving from Minnesota. This election was the last straw. I am not spending another election in this state if I can help it.

Thanks for the links though. I always love new places to visit/read.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:26 PM

Wasting your time, man. Natural rights mean nothing to a statist. And neo cons are statists who only vote republican because the antisemitism, not the philosophy, of the international far left grates on them.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

So the magical Gaia fairy just grants them to you with a swish of her sparkly wand?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:32 PM

No. No one and/or nothing has granted them to me. They exist because I exist.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Uh, Bish, she was talking about leaving your commie people’s republic…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

*Yawn*

Just woke up..
Did I miss the election?
/

Electrongod on November 7, 2012 at 9:37 PM

So the magical Gaia fairy just grants them to you with a swish of her sparkly wand?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:32 PM

Natural rights are inherent to the human being, they are not the gift of any man, institution, or nature. It rests on the belief that mankind, if rational, is more than the sum of its biological parts wether due to divine or evolutionary means.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:37 PM

All I got left anymore is Texas and Israel, and I’m not even a Jew.

TXUS on November 7, 2012 at 9:05 PM

Spawn qualifies for ‘Right of return’ citizenship in Israel through me(Judaism is materalineal-and since under Halachic law I’m considered a full Jew DESPITE my apostasy…)and is tossing around the idea of moving to Israel and getting joint citizenship. Id consider it too(There are Catholic churches in Israel) if I wasn’t married. Mr. Calvinist doesn’t qualify for automatic citizenship, is a proud USMC vet,and he likes Texas.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:37 PM

Electrongod on November 7, 2012 at 9:37 PM

Hey, It is Mourning in America…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:39 PM

We have another fore years of OOTD.

Electrongod on November 7, 2012 at 9:39 PM

Quiet tonight. I’m surprised the trolls aren’t out in force.

mrscullen on November 7, 2012 at 9:39 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

Come to west Texas. If you can ignore the muzzies-it ain’t bad. ALL the people I voted for won…excepting one certain race.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Spawn qualifies for ‘Right of return’ citizenship in Israel through me(Judaism is materalineal-and since under Halachic law I’m considered a full Jew DESPITE my apostasy…)and is tossing around the idea of moving to Israel and getting joint citizenship. Id consider it too(There are Catholic churches in Israel) if I wasn’t married. Mr. Calvinist doesn’t qualify for automatic citizenship, is a proud USMC vet,and he likes Texas.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:37 PM

Good luck with your endeavors in returning to your homeland.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Natural rights are inherent to the human being, they are not the gift of any man, institution, or nature. It rests on the belief that mankind, if rational, is more than the sum of its biological parts wether due to divine or evolutionary means.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:37 PM

And if someone believes differently like say the Mongol Horde, the Assyrians, or the Nazi’s?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:42 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:24 PM

Trying out AoS…

Scrumpy on November 7, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Good luck with your endeavors in returning to your homeland.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:40 PM

I knew that was coming. Eff you, dumb *uck! I was born in Iowa.
This IS my homeland-and Zeros mucking it up!

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Uh, Bish, she was talking about leaving your commie people’s republic…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

Figured it out a minute too late, that’s why I offered to share a cab outta this place.

I won’t pay any more to support the grifting losers I see wallowing around the Twin Cities; punks standing in line at the mission with new Air Jordans and Iphones, thugs scaring people off the sidewalks, Illinois welfare queens who come up here once a month to double dip on their government checks.

I’ll come back to fish now and then.

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Come to west Texas. If you can ignore the muzzies-it ain’t bad. ALL the people I voted for won…excepting one certain race.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:40 PM

I am actually thinking about Houston/Galveston area. My friend in Mississippi wants me to come live by her as well.

I just want a red state period.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM

Try Oklahoma, we would welcome you here :-)

Scrumpy on November 7, 2012 at 9:44 PM

Try Oklahoma, we would welcome you here :-)

Scrumpy on November 7, 2012 at 9:44 PM

It’s on the list :)

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:45 PM

I’ll come back to fish now and then.

Bishop on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

You are always welcome here, too. Driving distance and all…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:46 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

That area(H/G)is VERY humid and VERY liberal.
Lubbock isn’t pretty and we get tornadoes and haboobs-but we’re more conservative.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:47 PM

Gonna slip out for a while, see you all on the QOTD! Will we still have one? I guess I will find out later eh :-)

Scrumpy on November 7, 2012 at 9:48 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:45 PM

Hubby and I talked this morning about moving to Arizona. Minnesota is lost. I’m scared for the next 2 years.

mrscullen on November 7, 2012 at 9:49 PM

This IS my homeland-

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Then act like it.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:49 PM

According to a poll published last week, Israeli Jews favored Romney over Obama — by 35 points.

American Jews favored Obama over Romney by 40 points.

ZippyZ on November 7, 2012 at 9:49 PM

The press in the US and in Israel sometimes like to amplify minor things into something bigger to sell a good story, and both Obama’s and Netanyahu domestic political adversaries do the same to make themselves look more appealing.

But at the end of the day even though it’s visible from their body language that the 2 aren’t that great on a personal level, the strength of the relationship between the 2 nations is very good.

In a choice between Romney and Obama, Romney is preferred. But even with Obama at the helm… oh F… whom am I kidding, it freakin sucks he was re-elected. But yeah, this isn’t Ron Paul or Jimmy Carter. He’s still a “Friend of Israel”, if not in word, at least in deed. (OK I admit, I gagged a little when I wrote that bit in the quotation marks…)

AlexB on November 7, 2012 at 9:50 PM

I am sure there will be a QOTD Scrump. Lot’s of quotes out there…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:50 PM

Then act like it.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 9:49 PM

She is worried for her homeland.

She..
Like a lot of us here….

Look FORWARD many years instead of living day-by-day..

Electrongod on November 7, 2012 at 9:51 PM

Is there any precedent which may inform us, as conservatives, of a course of action?

I think there is. Consider the Pilgrims, who settled in the “New World” to escape persecution in the “Old World”. They faced the unknown, using only the skills and tools they brought with them to survive.

I wonder….who owns Mars?

A flight of fantasy, but think about what the Pilgrims did with an axe and some flint. Our technology is much better today.

We might even get the libs to borrow the money to pay for our trip, just to be rid of us.

BobMbx on November 7, 2012 at 9:52 PM

Hubby and I talked this morning about moving to Arizona. Minnesota is lost. I’m scared for the next 2 years.

mrscullen on November 7, 2012 at 9:49 PM

It’s sad but this isn’t the place it used to be. The liberal loonies are more deranged than ever.

My Aunt from Virginia e-mailed me today saying the same thing about there. They want out as soon as they can get out too.

I am beginning to think the best thing to do is start flooding the red states with conservatives. Change the population centers. So frustrating looking at the map and seeing all that red knowing we still lost.

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:54 PM

And if someone believes differently like say the Mongol Horde, the Assyrians, or the Nazi’s?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Violating someone’s rights doesn’t eliminate those rights. If I were to take your property, that only proves that I’m an a-hole, not that you don’t have any property rights. It is infact this very insistance on the reality of things not guaranteed that is THE defining feature of liberty and it’s adherents and is the only sound basis for declaring any government, or other instituion, to be illegitimate. The belief in raw power is very left-wing, regardless one’s party, and is why neocons generally get called statists, as I’ve done above.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:56 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:54 PM

The red states are sparsely populated, sadly…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:57 PM

The Mussad has always been quite effective in taking out their enemies and protecting their friends. Makes me wonder which side Obama/Biden fall on? :-)

Deano1952 on November 7, 2012 at 10:00 PM

I was about to declare Mr. Netanyahu the greatest actor since Laurence Olivier until he said, “I look forward to working with President Obama”, and closed his hands into fists. Now I only want to invite him to play poker.

:P

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on November 7, 2012 at 10:00 PM

BobMbx on November 7, 2012 at 9:52 PM

Good idea Bob, but you got it backwards. We offer the entitlement loving crowd a “free” trip into space. They couldn’t help themselves but to jump at the chance!!

Deano1952 on November 7, 2012 at 10:04 PM

It is infact this very insistance on the reality of things not guaranteed that is THE defining feature of liberty and it’s adherents and is the only sound basis for declaring any government

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:56 PM

Guaranteed by what?

You keep evading that point by hand-waving and frantic gestures but what or who guarantees these rights?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Hey, It is Mourning in America…

OmahaConservative on November 7, 2012 at 9:39 PM

Yes it is, but after the mourning, I will not forget “I won,” Fort Hood, Brian Terry, Jaime Zapata, hundreds of dead Mexican citizens, the police acted stupidly, stepping on the neck of Arizona, the disregard for the BP oil spill, the downgrades, Obamacare, the Keystone pipeline, the war on coal,no budgets, no leadership, the loss of over a dozen of America’s best in a helicopter,the New Black Panthers, ACORN, Valerie Jarrett, Ambassador Stevens, Sean Smith, Glen Doherty, and Ty Woods. Is there more? Yeah, I’m just getting a cramp from typing.

jazzuscounty on November 7, 2012 at 10:10 PM

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 10:05 PM

I’ve evaded nothing and the only frantic gesture was your own violation of Godwin’s law. Your own question seeks to re-ask the same loaded question: how can (classical) liberal values withstand illeberal opposition? And you’ve offered the same answer: that they can’t.

What you failed to comprehend in my initial comment was the key word NOT, as in not guaranteed. You’ve misunderstood my point in order get back to your question. That guarantee you keep insisting upon is immaterial to natural rights. Whether or not one has the force of violance to guarantee them does NOT negate them.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 10:11 PM

gophergirl on November 7, 2012 at 9:43 PM

That area(H/G)is VERY humid and VERY liberal.
Lubbock isn’t pretty and we get tornadoes and haboobs-but we’re more conservative.

annoyinglittletwerp on November 7, 2012 at 9:47 PM

Houston is humid, but not all of it is liberal. There are conservative pockets all over and surrounding the city. Ted Poe is a great conservative from the Humble area just north of the Houston city limits. It is amazing that he and Sheila Jackson Lee are from the same place.

jazzuscounty on November 7, 2012 at 10:17 PM

Whether or not one has the force of violance to guarantee them does NOT negate them.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 10:11 PM

So your argument is that your rights come from nothing? They just appear out of thin air somehow and no one can take them away even when they take them away? Your right to life still exists even if someone shoots you in the head and you die? Your right to your property continues to exist even as the raider rides off into the sunset with what used to be your stuff?

It sounds like something out of Aesop’s Fables.

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 10:18 PM

Your right to life still exists even if someone shoots you in the head and you die? Your right to your property continues to exist even as the raider rides off into the sunset with what used to be your stuff?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 10:18 PM

Yes. The right to life exists even if a person is murdered. The right to property exists even if someone has property stolen from them. Natural rights are not granted nir can they be taken away, though they certainly can be suppressed and infringed upon.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 10:42 PM

And if someone believes differently like say the Mongol Horde, the Assyrians, or the Nazi’s?

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Violating someone’s rights doesn’t eliminate those rights. If I were to take your property, that only proves that I’m an a-hole, not that you don’t have any property rights. It is infact this very insistance on the reality of things not guaranteed that is THE defining feature of liberty and it’s adherents and is the only sound basis for declaring any government, or other instituion, to be illegitimate. The belief in raw power is very left-wing, regardless one’s party, and is why neocons generally get called statists, as I’ve done above.

abobo on November 7, 2012 at 9:56 PM

I think sharrukin’s question is really about the basis on which your beliefs are superior to the different beliefs of some other rational person.

If some other rational person — wishing to be a “good person” — infringes upon your rights as you perceive them, by what means can you argue that his “good” beliefs are incorrect and your “good” beliefs are correct, in order that he should change his mind?

What if a rational person doesn’t believe there is such a thing as “property” and thus believes that talk of property rights has no more meaning than the noise made by a waterfall? What if he believes that “life” is essentially spiritual and thus cannot be ended by his destruction of your body?

YiZhangZhe on November 7, 2012 at 11:19 PM

I think sharrukin’s question is really about the basis on which your beliefs are superior to the different beliefs of some other rational person.

If some other rational person — wishing to be a “good person” — infringes upon your rights as you perceive them, by what means can you argue that his “good” beliefs are incorrect and your “good” beliefs are correct, in order that he should change his mind?

What if a rational person doesn’t believe there is such a thing as “property” and thus believes that talk of property rights has no more meaning than the noise made by a waterfall? What if he believes that “life” is essentially spiritual and thus cannot be ended by his destruction of your body?

YiZhangZhe on November 7, 2012 at 11:19 PM

The beginning of this mini-debate sprang from my saying to quit sanctioning the use of coercion and force to seize my property in order to have it handed to a foreign country. sharrukin questioned what makes it mine, and he stated that he assumed the law did. Property rights spring from the right to life (after all, we own our own bodies; we are autonomous individuals). No one can take my property or my life from me – no one can claim a right to my property – without the use of force or without the threat of force. To do so is not rational.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 11:30 PM

No one can take my property or my life from me – no one can claim a right to my property – without the use of force or without the threat of force. To do so is not rational.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 11:30 PM

People are rational?

You make a claim that you have a right to something and you cannot explain where that right comes from, or why you should posses it, and yet you speak of rational arguments?

Make a rational argument that justifies these magical rights you speak of.

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 11:36 PM

You make a claim that you have a right to something and you cannot explain where that right comes from, or why you should posses it, and yet you speak of rational arguments?

Make a rational argument that justifies these magical rights you speak of.

sharrukin on November 7, 2012 at 11:36 PM

I have already explained it. They exist because I exist. You can’t explain where you come from, but do you deny your existence?

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 11:57 PM

I have already explained it. They exist because I exist.

Dante on November 7, 2012 at 11:57 PM

That’s not an argument its Tautology.

Giant invisible vampire bats exist because I exist.

Why? Just because.

sharrukin on November 8, 2012 at 12:02 AM

That’s not an argument its Tautology.

Giant invisible vampire bats exist because I exist.

Why? Just because.

sharrukin on November 8, 2012 at 12:02 AM

Telling that you didn’t answer my question.

Dante on November 8, 2012 at 12:29 AM

It is time for Israel to launch their attack on Iran – time is short. DO IT NOW!

Pork-Chop on November 8, 2012 at 8:35 AM

That’s not an argument its Tautology.

Giant invisible vampire bats exist because I exist.

Why? Just because.

sharrukin on November 8, 2012 at 12:02 AM

Telling that you didn’t answer my question.

Dante on November 8, 2012 at 12:29 AM

Allow me to say the obvious answer you cannot say, or are unwilling to say. Rights come from God. They are endowed unto us by our Creator. If you try to divorce rights from God, then your rights have no value. Rights only have value when there is someone willing and able to enforce punishment against violators of your rights. Laws that carry no punishment are known as scoff laws. Value is assigned to your rights when God judges the wicked.

NeverLiberal on November 8, 2012 at 1:12 PM

Allow me to say the obvious answer you cannot say, or are unwilling to say. Rights come from God. They are endowed unto us by our Creator. If you try to divorce rights from God, then your rights have no value. Rights only have value when there is someone willing and able to enforce punishment against violators of your rights. Laws that carry no punishment are known as scoff laws. Value is assigned to your rights when God judges the wicked.

NeverLiberal on November 8, 2012 at 1:12 PM

I don’t believe in god.

Dante on November 8, 2012 at 3:42 PM

I don’t believe in god.

Dante on November 8, 2012 at 3:42 PM

You are certainly free to believe as you wish, but without any muscle to enforce punishment, natural rights are even more meaningless than our laws against illegal immigration. If man is just here by chance, then the only rule there that exists is survival of the fittest. If there are no consequences for someone to violate your rights, then how much are they really worth?

NeverLiberal on November 8, 2012 at 5:26 PM

You are certainly free to believe as you wish, but without any muscle to enforce punishment, natural rights are even more meaningless than our laws against illegal immigration. If man is just here by chance, then the only rule there that exists is survival of the fittest. If there are no consequences for someone to violate your rights, then how much are they really worth?

NeverLiberal on November 8, 2012 at 5:26 PM

Ding, ding, ding!

sharrukin on November 8, 2012 at 5:39 PM