Gun microstamping could close American factories

posted at 5:31 pm on October 6, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

I understand that gun owners’ rights and the Second Amendment haven’t really been a touchstone in this year’s elections, but that doesn’t mean that the battle isn’t still being waged. One story out this month hits pretty close to home for me, both figuratively and literally. It involves the Remington Arms plant located in Ilion, a village in upstate New York. They are currently battling a pending move by the state government which would force them to put laser etched microstamps on the firing pins of all their weapons, driving costs through the roof.

Microstamping, or ballistic imprinting, is a patented process that uses laser technology to engrave a tiny marking of the make, model and serial number on the tip of a gun’s firing pin to allow an imprint of that information on spent cartridge cases. Supporters of the technology say it will be a “game changer,” allowing authorities to quickly identify the registered guns used in crimes. Opponents claim the process is costly, unreliable and may ultimately impact the local economies that heavily depend on the gun industry, including Ilion, N.Y., where Remington Arms maintains a factory, and Hartford, Conn., where Colt’s manufacturing is headquartered.

“Mandatory microstamping would have an immediate impact of a loss of 50 jobs,” New York State Sen. James Seward, a Republican whose district includes Ilion, said, adding that Remington employs 1,100 workers in the town. “You’re talking about a company that has options in other states. Why should they be in a state that’s hostile to legal gun manufacturing? There could be serious negative economic impact with the passage of microstamping and other gun-control laws.”

I grew up within bicycling distance of the Remington Arms plant, and nearly every one of our neighbors either had a family member who worked there or knew people who did. It was the central industry of the area, and while diminished in size over the years, is still a primary force in providing jobs. They also have a long, proud tradition of producing some of the finest hunting hardware in the nation for well over a century.

This microstamping, while perhaps well intentioned from a law enforcement perspective, is a business disaster in the making for little or no return on the investment. Bob Owens explains.

For starters: microstamping fails to work on any firearm that already exists, something in the neighborhood of more than 300 million firearms. As firearms last indefinitely, it would be decades before they became a significant number of total firearms — even if the technology was foolproof.

But microstamping is not foolproof. Let’s look at the ways microstamping fails, beyond the numbers:

  • Microstamping does not work if shell casings aren’t automatically ejected from the crime gun. Revolvers, derringers, double-barrel shotguns, pump shotguns and rifles, and semi-automatic firearms that can be equipped with inexpensive brass catchers (common among some shooters) would leave no cartridges at the scene of a shooting.
  • Microstamping does not work because firing pins are inexpensive and easy to replace. The firing pin for most weapons are easily replaced by someone with a minimum of ability to read and follow the basic cleaning directions for his firearm. The expense of millions of dollars in retooling is thwarted by the purchase of a $12 part.
  • Microstamping does not work because the stamping is easily defaced. It would take a matter of a half-dozen passes of a standard diamond file, and less than a minute, to eradicate the microstamping.
  • Microstamping is incredibly fragile. The stamping would wear out over time through simple use of the firearm, or be thwarted by the normal powder residue that builds up on small parts.
  • Microstamping could easily be spoofed and waste police time — or worse, send the wrong people to jail. Most shooters do not reload their own ammunition, and leave their shell casings at the range. All it would take to turn microstamping to a criminal’s advantage would be for a criminal or one of his associates to pick up brass from a firing range in the same caliber as the weapon he carries. After he uses a microstamping-free weapon in a crime, he would merely drop the brass he recovered from Joe Citizen at the range at the crime scene. Joe will wake up with a SWAT team crashing through his door at 5:00 a.m., and if he’s lucky, innocent Joe won’t be gunned down along with his family pets.

Bob has plenty more at the link and a wealth of experience with guns and second amendment issues to back it up. Rules like these, forced through by excitable gun opponents without considering the law of unintended consequences, can and will result in more factories closing down and moving to more business friendly climes. While some may look at this as the natural evolution of business in the free market, it still affects many, many families and entire communities. On top of that, Remington isn’t just another manufacturer of another widget. They are an icon of American history and part of the fabric of New York dating back to the 1800s. Gun violence is of concern to many people without question, but this isn’t an answer to anything.


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Microstamping is stupid..all you have to do is shoot a dozen rounds through it and not clean the firing pin. There are several videos demonstrating this on firearms discussion boards. Also, has anyone heard of this high tech tool called a file. Takes 30 seconds to remove the microstamping.

Wackyg on October 6, 2012 at 7:15 PM

Takes 30 seconds to remove the microstamping.

Wackyg on October 6, 2012 at 7:15 PM

But then government makes it illegal to deface the microstamping, just like it is to remove a serial number. Then, because as you say, not cleaning it causes it to foul, they require you to bring your weapon in for regular inspections, at your cost mind, like they do cars.

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 7:18 PM

Microstamping, or ballistic imprinting, is a patented process that uses laser technology to engrave a tiny marking of the make, model and serial number on the tip of a gun’s firing pin to allow an imprint of that information on spent cartridge cases.

“Patented process” = all manufacturers will have to either buy the machinery from the patentee, pay royalties to the patentee, or both. For those of you unfamiliar with how this can affect the firearms business;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollin_White

White’s patent on the bored-through cylinder kept everybody but Smith & Wesson from making breech-loaded, metallic-cartridge handguns for thirteen years (1856-69). It is the major reason the American Civil War was fought with percussion “front-loader” revolvers.

Incidentally, there is a debate to this day on whether or not White’s 1855 patent was even legal. Because Casimir Lefaucheux and a man named Houllier had patented a metallic-cartridge breech-loading revolver system in France and the US in 1846;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lefaucheux

In light of this, White’s patent may have been the result of either a sloppily-done patent search at the USPO- or some behind-the-scenes “palm greasing” by Horace Smith & Daniel Baird Wesson.

Whatever happened, S&W had a monopoly on metallic-cartrdige revolvers until 1869. They tried to get an extension on the patent for another 13 years then, but the Patent Court was overruled by none other than President Grant.

The point is that a “sole-source” patent can sharply limit the type of firearms that are produced, purely under patent law.

Suppose that the patentee in this case refuses to license or sell his system to certain gunmakers- or indeed any gunmakers?

Except those working for the government, of course. (Think; government armories, companies that only make military weapons for sale to the Defense Department, etc.)

This could be a ploy to prohibit the manufacture and sale of firearms to civilians, period. If an attempt is made to introduce it nationwide, I’d say that that was exactly its intention.

It’s also entirely useless. I’ve removed rust and burrs from the tip of a firing pin with a piece of crocus cloth (very fine garnet-type sandpaper) and a bit of elbow grease in about two minutes flat. I doubt that their “microengraving” would be any more difficult to dispose of.

clear ether

eon

eon on October 6, 2012 at 7:18 PM

Seriously? The same guberment that couldn’t be bothered to track those fast and furious guns wants to track only the newly sold guns? Buy used then or replace the pins, it takes about three minutes.
ConcealedKerry on October 6, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Unless I am missing something in the article, this is on the NY state level. Not the Federal level.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:18 PM

..what’s the old line? Never go to a gunfight with anything whose caliber does not start with a 4!

The War Planner on October 6, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Been there, done that.

The .380 came out on top.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:19 PM

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:12 PM

lol….in handguns, I only own 9′s….makes ammo purchase easy.

with a short barreled pocket-pistol…..not much difference in balistics anyway, and I want the stopping power from my 1911.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 7:21 PM

Or these people, Tim’.

listens2glenn on October 6, 2012 at 7:15 PM

lol….and them.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 7:23 PM

I was watching the last episode of Cracker, a British crime drama, and there was a woman explaining to some Brit cop, that she wasn’t really an American, that she was a New Yorker.

claudius on October 6, 2012 at 7:26 PM

Could they get around that by shipping the weapons without a firing pin?

davidk on October 6, 2012 at 7:27 PM

I think we should have a microstamping process applied to politicians allowing them to be tracked down after shooting their mouth off with a load of lies… oh, wait…

ghostwalker1 on October 6, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Never cared much for Remmington arms. I’m a 1911 enthusiast. Anyone know if their 1911′s can compete with Springfield, S&W or Wilson Combat’s?

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 6:55 PM

I’m trying out some of the lower end. My Taurus 1911 will be here Monday. It has already been converted from a series 80 back to a series 70.

Next will be a Rock Island or Springfield mil spec.

From what I have heard the Remington R1 is performing well.

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:32 PM

New York state’s loss will be someone else’s gain. I’m sure their are a great number of states that would welcome these factories with open arms.

HarryBackside on October 6, 2012 at 7:33 PM

Sandra Fluke and her friends make an appearance. They really want to show their gratitude to those fighting for their freedoms…

Propaganda Revisited: We Wuz Robbed! The Way We Should’ve Fought World War II! – Part VIII

Resist We Much on October 6, 2012 at 7:34 PM

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 7:21 PM

I ain’t a cop, I don’t need something that will intimidate a bank robber, or escaping felon. Besides, I have a Desert Eagle if I want to do that. Forget that last sentence, guns are bad.

Bad guys are cowards. A good shot with a .22 will put a robber, even a stoned one down, or to flight. A .380 with Glasers will stop a stoned home invader.
.380, .38, .357, 9mm…all the same bullet, just different power.

Play with some layers of sheet rock next time you practice. It will make you think about your aim point if you ever need to shoot in your home.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:35 PM

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:35 PM

lol….love ya bro!

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 7:37 PM

“Gun registration is not enough. Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal.” – Janet Reno

Speakup on October 6, 2012 at 7:38 PM

Fight.

hawkdriver on October 6, 2012 at 7:38 PM

..what’s the old line? Never go to a gunfight with anything whose caliber does not start with a 4!

The War Planner on October 6, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Two of my favorites:

Reporter to a Texas Ranger: “Why do you carry a 45?”

Texas Ranger: “Because they don’t make a 46.”

Tombstone at Boot Hill:

Here lies
Lester Moore
Four slugs
from a 44
No Les,
No more

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM

Never cared much for Remmington arms. I’m a 1911 enthusiast. Anyone know if their 1911′s can compete with Springfield, S&W or Wilson Combat’s?

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 6:55 PM

Im sure we could start a full thread JUST on that alone…but from experience, I’d say, if you want a 1911, stick with the original.

BUT Kimber, Para Ord, and Springfield are decent alternatives.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 7:42 PM

I’m trying out some of the lower end. My Taurus 1911 will be here Monday. It has already been converted from a series 80 back to a series 70.
Next will be a Rock Island or Springfield mil spec.
From what I have heard the Remington R1 is performing well.
Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:32 PM

Nice! I was looking at a Mil Spec myself as we’ll as their Operator. I ended up going with a stainless S&W 1911 TA E series. It’s a pretty nice looking piece with a ton of features for the money but I am having some ejection/extractor problems with it. Right out of the box I had feeding and extractor retention pin issues. I had to send it in to S&W once already. They polished the feed ramp and replaced the extractor roll pin with a solid one so now it feeds flawlessly and the pin doesn’t move anymore but I’m going to have to send it in again because it keeps dragging the last casing into the magazine feed lips. It’s ruined my Wilson Combat and Chip McCormick mags. Kinda wish I would have just went for the Springfield Operator. Hopefully they’ll be able to fix the ejection issues so it won’t ruin anymore of my magazines.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:42 PM

Im sure we could start a full thread JUST on that alone…but from experience, I’d say, if you want a 1911, stick with the original.
BUT Kimber, Para Ord, and Springfield are decent alternatives.
BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 7:42 PM

I love Springfield’s 1911′s. I’m interested in Kimber. Para Ord not so much. I didn’t much like the feel of them. I have a S&W1911 I bought 5 years ago that’s been flawless. My new S&W1911 TA E series…not so much. Haha

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:45 PM

Rules like these, forced through by excitable gun opponents without considering the law of unintended consequences, can and will result in more factories closing down and moving to more business friendly climes. While some may look at this as the natural evolution of business in the free market, it still affects many, many families and entire communities. On top of that, Remington isn’t just another manufacturer of another widget. They are an icon of American history and part of the fabric of New York dating back to the 1800s.

What, exactly, is the point of your piece besides being grossly misleading?

Dante on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

And there is a lovely expended cartridge you are supposed to keep with your pistol, too… which is totally useless…

What this should stimulate is the home lathe and mills, digital readouts and utilize open source software to run it. For about $5k you can get into the DIY receiver making for your own fun and frivolity. Barrel making, too. Plus the small parts.

Basically its getting close to the era where trying to ‘regulate’ firearms becomes a moot point. Yet the politicians are living in the 20th century still.

And Progressives are STILL stuck in the 19th century.

Welcome to the 21st century. The one that will put these idiotic ideas away for good.

ajacksonian on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

lmao….this is the best thread we’ve had in over a month.

It’s like we’re on the BassPro blog ffs.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 7:50 PM

What, exactly, is the point of your piece besides being grossly misleading?

Dante on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

The birthplace of a company.

Something you wouldn’t understand.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:51 PM

What, exactly, is the point of your piece besides being grossly misleading?
Dante on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

What’s “misleading” about it? Care to share? Or did you just feel like taking a steaming troll dump on the thread?

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:54 PM

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 7:50 PM

Its always nice to relax with an interesting one. All politics, all the time, gets depressing. Though some folks don’t quite get that.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:54 PM

ajacksonian on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

While you can make them, they end up not being high quality, reliable and long lasting. At least not with $5,000 in equipment. You can make them, but I would not trust my life to one when given the alternative of a mass produced at a state of the art manufacturing facility weapon.

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 7:55 PM

I love Springfield’s 1911′s. I’m interested in Kimber. Para Ord not so much. I didn’t much like the feel of them. I have a S&W1911 I bought 5 years ago that’s been flawless. My new S&W1911 TA E series…not so much. Haha

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:45 PM

No, i understand how you feel: My thing is, with a fat cartridge like the .45, a pistol that uses a double stack magazine tends to make the gun more for those with bigger hands and/or longer fingers at the very least.

Not to mention the weight & balance. Try using a extended magazine in a classic ’11 and using a similar mag holding the same amount of rounds in a double stack pistol. It takes some getting used to.

Funny thing is, I find the opposite in a 9mm single vs double gun…mebbe it’s me…shrug.

BUT i do know i loved my dad’s 1911, and i am a die hard member of the Church of Colt…lol.

But i do love my 1911 AND my 220 as well….you know, in a truly platonic way of course.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 7:56 PM

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:45 PM

Interesting. I have an expensive Kimber that had feed and extraction problems right out of the box. I had to polish the feed ramp: it came from the factory with a tool mark half way up. The extractor had to be worked on also.

My Taurus was picked up by my brother and he is running it in before he brings it up. Four hundred rounds through it, out of the box, without a FTF or a FTE. Removing the firing pin block really “fixed” the trigger pull. His fellow gunners at their club are amazed at the accuracy and grouping.

So, you just can never be sure regarding price…

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Taurus has really stepped up since changing their philosophy.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:00 PM

All gun factories should move to Texas.

Texas will last the longest when it comes to freedom.

redguy on October 6, 2012 at 8:01 PM

What, exactly, is the point of your piece besides being grossly misleading?

Dante on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

…why do you ever post?

KOOLAID2 on October 6, 2012 at 8:04 PM

All gun factories should move to Texas.

Texas will last the longest when it comes to freedom.

redguy on October 6, 2012 at 8:01 PM

When it comes to freedom, Texas will be the first to be taken over from within by their majority Mexican population.

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 8:04 PM

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 7:56 PM

If I ever come across a Para for rent at a range I’ll give it a shot. I do like the look and features of that Colt Rail Gun 1911. I read some reviews and it seems like a solid pistol. I just decided to go with that S&W TA E because I have had great experiences with their older more basic 1911. My AR15 is made by them as well and its been flawless. My next 1911 will likely be that Colt Rail Gun or the Springfield Operator.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:05 PM

All gun factories should move to Texas.

Texas will last the longest when it comes to freedom.

redguy on October 6, 2012 at 8:01 PM

Hey….Texas is picking California clean….I’m sure they’d LOVE to bring those jobs to the lonestar state.

I was frankly surprised to learn Remington had a plant in New York State. Seems they’d have been regulated out of there decades ago.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 8:08 PM

When it comes to freedom, Texas will be the first to be taken over from within by their majority Mexican population.

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Whenever I think you are returning from the orbit of Uranus, you go and write something like this.

Geeze man, get a reality check.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:09 PM

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Indeed. I spent about $300 more on this TA E than I did my older 1911 from S&W. It too had a ton of machine marks on the feed ramp. Looked like a cheese grater. It’s nice and shiny now. It’s just that ejection issue I have now.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:09 PM

What, exactly, is the point of your piece besides being grossly misleading?

Dante on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

Please elaborate.

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 8:10 PM

Whenever I think you are returning from the orbit of Uranus, you go and write something like this.

Geeze man, get a reality check.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:09 PM

I remember Texas’ state government stance during the immigration debate back during Bush. They did not want a fence. I lived in Texas several different times in different parts for different jobs. I know a little bit of Spanish. I know what some of the guys at the local toco stand were saying back at that time. I doubt it is just those few who I heard speaking openly in public who had similar feelings.

But hey, I am sure you know everything…

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 8:14 PM

What, exactly, is the point of your piece besides being grossly misleading?

Dante on October 6, 2012 at 7:49 PM

He is indirectly pointing out that this regulation would result in a violation of the 2nd Amendment in that it would infringe on our right to keep and bear arms by driving arms manufacturers out of business.

dominigan on October 6, 2012 at 8:15 PM

without considering the law of unintended consequences

If Liberals could be induced to consider this one minor detail in the course of executing their agendas, it would eradicate the negative affects of all Liberal nostrums.

Cleombrotus on October 6, 2012 at 8:16 PM

If Liberals could be induced to consider this one minor detail in the course of executing their agendas, it would eradicate the negative affects of all Liberal nostrums.

Cleombrotus on October 6, 2012 at 8:16 PM

They do consider them. They see them as silver linings in most cases.

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 8:21 PM

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:05 PM

I think you will be pleasantly surprised by them: I’ve handled the Paras when they first made their way here many moons ago during the “9mm” craze when everyone was looking to have a 92R or an equivalent before the high cap magazine ban of the 90′s was still being tossed about then finally implemented.

Sigh…now if i can ONLY afford that semi-auto battle rifle i wanted for my Birthday…heheh

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM

I’m surprised to hear that! I’ve think you’re the first person i know that has had that kind of experience with Kimber, especially out of the box.

Taurus was always, IMHO a “Okay” gun company, decent stuff, not that junk that Norinco pumps out like cookies every year…but I guess the QC had improved by leaps n bounds over the years.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 8:22 PM

Taurus makes a .22 Hornet revolver. Yum.
http://www.gunfactory.ch/faustfw/images/taurus_22hornet.jpg
Now if only someone would make a lever carbine. Like Henry.

pat on October 6, 2012 at 8:24 PM

All gun factories should move to Texas.
Texas will last the longest when it comes to freedom.
redguy on October 6, 2012 at 8:01 PM

What astonerii said.

Plus, Alaska will be easier to defend.

Cleombrotus on October 6, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Yoop on October 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM

I buy Taurus for functionality and value. For investment appreciation of a collection, a few other brands are probably better, at least for now.

petefrt on October 6, 2012 at 8:25 PM

.380, .38, .357, 9mm…all the same bullet, just different power.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:35 PM

What! I know that ain’t true. Otherwise those CSI’s on TV wouldn’t be able to look at a slug they just dug out of a body and tell it’s a .357 magnum bullet and not a .38 special +P. Calibrated eyeballs, that’s the ticket.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:26 PM

All gun factories should move to Texas. Texas will last the longest when it comes to freedom.
redguy on October 6, 2012 at 8:01 PM

Second longest, with Idaho in first. You all don’t have half as many mountains as we do…

Dunedainn on October 6, 2012 at 8:27 PM

Taurus makes a .22 Hornet revolver. Yum.
http://www.gunfactory.ch/faustfw/images/taurus_22hornet.jpg
Now if only someone would make a lever carbine. Like Henry.

pat on October 6, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Interesting. Looks like my Python at first blush, before i got it customized.

Cant see doing the scope though, maybe a integrated laser?

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 8:29 PM

.357 magnum bullet and not a .38 special +P. Calibrated eyeballs, that’s the ticket.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:26 PM

I never understood why somebody would want a .38+P and not go all in for a .357.

All I could think of was some rule for police.

Folks can talk about the stopping power of a .45 all day. But just let them try to stop an engine block with one. The .357 can do that.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:31 PM

I love Springfield’s 1911′s. I’m interested in Kimber.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 7:45 PM

I have two Kimbers, both .45. A custom classic blue and a stainless Gold Match. Love ‘em both. The custom classic is my favorite, just like it better than the Gold Match. I also have a Colt 1911 in SS and a H&K USP .45. Like the Kimbers way better than either of them.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:35 PM

F-&:$/@king Gestapo!

ronsfi on October 6, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Second longest, with Idaho in first. You all don’t have half as many mountains as we do…
Dunedainn on October 6, 2012 at 8:27 PM

Idaho vs Colorado over all? I’m thinking of moving and Idaho has me interested. I’ve only been Coude Lane and only briefly.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:38 PM

I have two Kimbers, both .45. A custom classic blue and a stainless Gold Match. Love ‘em both. The custom classic is my favorite, just like it better than the Gold Match. I also have a Colt 1911 in SS and a H&K USP .45. Like the Kimbers way better than either of them.
Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Nice. I’d like to get a H&K USP .45 someday. They look slick and I hear they are second to none when it comes to polymer pistols. I have a Springfield XD 9mm that I rarely ever shoot. Not too big on 9mm’s.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:40 PM

I never understood why somebody would want a .38+P and not go all in for a .357.

All I could think of was some rule for police.

Folks can talk about the stopping power of a .45 all day. But just let them try to stop an engine block with one. The .357 can do that.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:31 PM

Heh, never understood that either. I do have a couple of boxes of .38 +P but that’s only because a buddy gave them to me. I had a few hundred .38 special cases when I was reloading but never loaded a round of it. Did a lot of .357 though. The difference in price per round was negligible. The old “Which is better argument” I love it. It’s like Fire and Ice I think either will do the job just fine. It would be a rare day when I need to stop an engine block invading my living room though. I’m pretty sure that either a .45 or a .357 will stop anything that comes walking through my door uninvited.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Nice. I’d like to get a H&K USP .45 someday. They look slick and I hear they are second to none when it comes to polymer pistols. I have a Springfield XD 9mm that I rarely ever shoot. Not too big on 9mm’s.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Now see….I love my 9′s…but swore I’d never own a plastic pistol.

Can’t we ll just get along?

(lol)

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 8:48 PM

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Don’t get me wrong, I like the .45 just fine. And the testament to that is no one has been able to outdo John Browning’s basic design for over 100 years. But then, he went and did the same thing for the 9mm.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 8:48 PM

Lol

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Don’t get me wrong, I like the .45 just fine.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:49 PM

I understand, I was just saying I love the “Which is best” discussions. Politics, religion and firearms all generate a lot of interest and passion. Although I tend to shy away from religion :-)

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:53 PM

…but swore I’d never own a plastic pistol.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 8:48 PM

I’m kind of with ya’ there. Grips and stocks are one thing, frames are quite another.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Come to Montana. We love guns here and the taxes are low.

Kissmygrits on October 6, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Now see….I love my 9′s…but swore I’d never own a plastic pistol.

Can’t we ll just get along?

(lol)

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 8:48 PM

My wife loves her 9. She did not like the 40 S&W I originally got her.

Still thinking on getting a short shot gun for her, a high powered rifle and a pair of something heavy pistol for myself.

astonerii on October 6, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Oddly missing from the “why I prefer_______ Caliber/Frame/Type/Model/Maker” conversation – any of our liberal friends.

???

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 8:57 PM

I was just saying I love the “Which is best” discussions.
Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Me too, though I don’t think I would describe them as discussions. Any more passion with most of them and we would need a cigarette afterwards.

-Coke
-Ford
-.45
-350
-TOS
-Tastes great

I don’t just shy away from the religion one’s, I run.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:58 PM

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 8:42 PM

As a owner of both .45 & .357 I guarantee they will give anyone coming through the door a warm welcome.

As for using +P, I always found them to be an odd duck: I mean, why buy those when its just easier to reload Magnum cases with a decreased powder load?

I would stick to 158 grain for carry & 140 for in-home use and 125 for the range or when i don’t want a fireball rolling out the front…For the 1911, 200 for carry and 185 for in-home.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:06 PM

It involves the Remington Arms plant located in Ilion, a village in upstate New York. They are currently battling a pending move by the state government which would force them to put laser etched microstamps on the firing pins of all their weapons, driving costs through the roof.

Not a problem – move that factory to Louisiana – we’ll take it and the company will SAVE TONS of money to boot on labor costs!

HondaV65 on October 6, 2012 at 9:08 PM

I would stick to 158 grain for carry & 140 for in-home use and 125 for the range or when i don’t want a fireball rolling out the front…

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:06 PM

I agree. Though my main one doesn’t like anything less than 158gr.

And that fire bloom, is lovely.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 9:10 PM

Microstamping would require gun registration to even be feasible, not to mention all the technical issues, and even then the shooter isn’t necessarily identified.
There is, however, a reliable method of identifying the shooter already in use. It’s been used by the police for over a hundred years. Many crimes have been solved using it.
Every cartridge case left at the scene of a crime carries the thumbprint of whoever loaded the magazine. Firing the cartridge doesn’t affect it at all and recently a technique has been developed wherein the print can be recovered from the etching of the brass caused by the acidic oils that fingerprints are made of. Even if the print is wiped off it can still be recovered.

single stack on October 6, 2012 at 9:10 PM

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:06 PM

Some people bought .38 special for target practice. Commercially it was cheaper than .357, even the +P so I guess in that way it made sense. When you were reloading it yourself not so much. I did have to make an initial investment in .357 brass but that wasn’t much. At the ranges I frequented I never found .357 brass. I had an almost unlimited supply of once fired 9mm and .45 was fairly plentiful but almost no .357. I could also get 10mm and .223 brass by the barrel but I didn’t reload those.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:15 PM

I agree. Though my main one doesn’t like anything less than 158gr.

And that fire bloom, is lovely.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 9:10 PM

GMTA…

Bring your baby over to meet mines: We’ll let them have a Play Date…lol

Agree, nothing like the sight and smell of cordite burning paper or the “TWANG” of a good 10x shot at 25 yards :o)

OTOH that fireball is a b!tch if you’re practicing CQ…Bullets are distracting enough coming AT you, sending them downrange with it’s own Pink Floyd Laser Light show….well, I guess it DOES make things more interesting.

Heh.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:18 PM

I agree. Though my main one doesn’t like anything less than 158gr.

And that fire bloom, is lovely.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 9:10 PM

I have a Soviet era Czech CZ-52. Little 7.62×25 bottleneck round that’s gotta be a compressed load. Talk about a blow torch! And no that’s not me in the video it’s just a random clip I picked for the CZ.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:22 PM

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:15 PM

Yeah, American reloading is a art like homebrewing or fixing cars.

Heaven help America if we lose that art.

My granddad also had a old Lyman reload machine that he used for pistol & rifle rounds (he taught me some of the basic skills, books & luck filled in the rest, lol), and I swear i would hold onto once i get a chance to move to Open Range country…or at least my own house.. so i can practice the craft.

I will say this as per brass: I got a bud that does reload most of my spent stuff when I bring it to him: in exchange I keep his computer shiny & clean.

We charge each other 2 six packs of decent Adult Malt Beverages, and so far its a decent exchange!

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:26 PM

I get the whole tracking/gov’t/big brother thing, and yes that means I am against this. But, hey, if I’m firing it is either for a reason a jury is gonna send me home smiling about or the crapola has hit the fan so bad there will be no juries.

Limerick on October 6, 2012 at 9:27 PM

GMTA…

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:18 PM

I don’t know if the “G” is appropriate, at least for me.

Back in the day when there weren’t many “holy crap” looking firearms, that is where my desires went. I stayed with the normal guns for when I needed one. But c’mon, for playtime, it is hard to beat a Spas or Desert Eagle when you wanted to be Darth Vader.

One of these days I’m gonna’ have to try a “Dragon’s Breath” shell.

Now, there are lots of ugly guns and they don’t look too impressive. The only thing that turns me away faster than a plastic frame, is an internal hammer. I guess I’m gonna’ have to buckle down and get with the times if I want anything new.

On a happier note, I got to skeet shoot with an MKA1919 a couple of weekends ago.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:22 PM

Pretty sweet, and clean lines.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 9:35 PM

I get the whole tracking/gov’t/big brother thing, and yes that means I am against this. But, hey, if I’m firing it is either for a reason a jury is gonna send me home smiling about or the crapola has hit the fan so bad there will be no juries.

Limerick on October 6, 2012 at 9:27 PM

Let’s not forget target practice, hunting or sport….but I hear you.

The issue here though…is that this nonsense is easily defeated…in this case, even exploited….by the bad guys, and only adds to the cost of producing an item that’s guaranteed to you by the 2nd amendment.

This isn’t a plan to “secure”..it’s a plan to control and limit…and it puts gov hands deeper into a place they should not be.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 9:37 PM

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:26 PM

I really liked reloading. It was fun and interesting. Unfortunately age and arthritis put an end to it. After the second time I had to get down on my hands and knees to recover primers after dropping a whole flat I decided that it was time to give it up. Should not be fooling around with things that go bang in the night if you can’t hold on to them. I still do my own computer work. Trying to work up a good reason to build myself a new one. I used to do all my own work cars, air conditioner, electrical, plumbing you name it I did it. I found that if I did it myself there were fewer reworks and I never had to argue with myself about how I did something. Hell I was even into home brewing and made pretty good brews too. As I get older I find myself having to hire out things more and more though. I really hate getting old but can’t do much about it.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:46 PM

But c’mon, for playtime, it is hard to beat a Spas or Desert Eagle when you wanted to be Darth Vader.

Hard to beat, but damned hard to own. The gun that i “wanted” to own was the USAS-12 when it was the improved “street sweeper” at the time.

Box AND Drum semi-auto .12 guage? Yes, please.

As for a SPAS, i’ll try the model 15 and be happy. Perfect weapon for a vehicle even if its a .410…BUT offer it in a .20 guague and you just made a believer out of me.

One of these days I’m gonna’ have to try a “Dragon’s Breath” shell.

Hurry up and soon. IIRC i think they’re “banned” sort of, even IF Youtube yields up some interesting info on their manufacture..:cough cough:…

TOTALLY for education purposes, of course!

On a happier note, I got to skeet shoot with an MKA1919 a couple of weekends ago.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Met with a friend awhile back that got me a chance to let me hold…and maybe caress a little…a copy of the semiauto i REALLY want for Xmas: a Galil clone in 7.62 – Hard to get in the states, especially since i want the conversion kit to swap it to a 5.56 at will.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:46 PM

I’ll happily engrave my slugs with my name and address and my casings with “Have a Nice Day – Love, Tim” if they promise to never send unmarked, untraceable weapons to a foreign country, thereby purposefully arming extremely violent druglords and directly causing the deaths of hundreds of civilians (many of them children) and an American Border Patrol Agent……

OOOPS…TOO LATE.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:46 PM

I hear you. I like reloading only becuase of the memories it brings back when I was toadstool high and lets face it, all guys like things that go “BANG”.

Fixing cars is another one of those learned skills: I grew up knowing the basics, and maybe a few advanced tricks, but not a true shade-tree mechanic…and the way things are going however, in the last odd years I’ve been ramped up and blessed in owning a car that for the MOST part i can DIY, and what I save i can hire a REAL pro to do.

And as a excuse, there’s never a BAD reason not to build a new computer, besides every room needs Internet access these days, am I right?…

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:51 PM

Heh, watching Red Dawn right now. Colonel Tanner just bought it on the tank. Love that movie. Had to choose between The Outlaw Josey Wales and RD. Decisions, decisions.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:53 PM

I found that if I did it myself there were fewer reworks and I never had to argue with myself about how I did something.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 9:46 PM

You noticed that too? Sorry about you having to give the fun stuff up.

I gave my reloading set up to my dad when I got married. He still has it somewhere, but I no longer shoot enough, or have the desire.

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:46 PM

That USAS-12 is a dream come true. If only we could buy them…

The Spas-15 comes real close to being a dream. IIRC, the laws in Canada are whats keeping it out of the US.

Galils, and their clones are nice, but I have a Colt Ar-15 in 7.62 and prefer that.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 10:00 PM

I’m generally for making sure firearms are identifiable and traceable, but only in so much as the methods aren’t prohibitively expensive.

Count to 10 on October 6, 2012 at 10:03 PM

BlaxPac on October 6, 2012 at 9:51 PM

I’m a tinkerer. Always have been for as long as I can remember. I like knowing how stuff works. I guess that’s why I got into steam plants and nuclear reactors. Almost everybody I know is the same way. One of my friends just drove his 1982 restored Mac truck to our monthly breakfast meeting to show us. He called me a couple of nights ago and I walked him through a computer (modem/router) problem he was having. I was busy cooking dinner at the time. Orange sesame beef from a recipe of my own. I can still cook :-)

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 10:07 PM

.380, .38, .357, 9mm…all the same bullet, just different power.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:35 PM

Not so.

The .380 and 9mm are .355 inch diameter bullets. The .38 and .357mag are .358 inch diameter bullets.

Small but significant difference.

Kind of like 22s.
The 22Short, Long and Long Rifle are .222 inch.
The .22Mag is .223 inch.
All centerfire 22s are .224 inch (218Bee, 219Zipper, 220Swift, 221Fireball, 222Remington and Rem. Mag, 223Remington, 224Weatherby, 225Winchester)

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:11 PM

Idaho vs Colorado over all? I’m thinking of moving and Idaho has me interested. I’ve only been Coude Lane and only briefly.

jawkneemusic on October 6, 2012 at 8:38 PM

Ceour d’Alene is awesome. As remote locations go, it’s still close enough to Spokane, a moderately large city, and an easy trip to many other lovely places to visit. Banff, Lake Louise in Canada, western Montana, the Tetons to the south…

Freelancer on October 6, 2012 at 10:17 PM

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:11 PM

Sounds like you’re a reloader.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 10:17 PM

…if they promise to never send unmarked, untraceable weapons to a foreign country, thereby purposefully arming extremely violent druglords…

OOOPS…TOO LATE.

Tim_CA on October 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Those guns were quite traceable. As long as they were dropped at the murder scene to be recovered…according to plans.
That was the whole purpose of the op. The guns would be supplied by our government to the cartels, used in dramatic fashion by the cartel murderers. DROPPED AT THE SCENE. Recovered. Traced to the USA.
Thereby implicating America in Mexico’s drug war and setting the stage for abrogation of the Second Amendment.

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:17 PM

Ceour d’Alene is awesome. As remote locations go, it’s still close enough to Spokane, a moderately large city, and an easy trip to many other lovely places to visit. Banff, Lake Louise in Canada, western Montana, the Tetons to the south…

Freelancer on October 6, 2012 at 10:17 PM

I lived in Idaho Falls for a while back in my youth. Spent a lot of time in the desert. Winter was brutal, still one of the best places I ever lived. Wouldn’t have minded going back there and settling down.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 10:20 PM

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 10:17 PM

I started reloading back in the Sixties. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to do much for the past couple of years – but that (hopefully!) is about to change.

I always enjoyed working up that “just perfect” load for a gun to wring the last little bit of accuracy out of it.
Of course, nowadays the factories are churning out ammo that is hard to beat – no matter how you tweak the loads. Not like the old days when any factory ammo could be beaten by a handloader. Some of the stuff coming out today is really phenomenal.

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM

Another case of “let’s make a law because, well, it *feels* like it will make a difference” contrary to any basis in reality.

I carry a .32 in the summer and a 9mm in the winter, though I’m thinking of going to a .45 or .40 Will have to do a little range time :)

THOUGH I think I found a new toy I’m waiting for more reviews on: http://www.srmarms.com/ Nothing like a semi-auto shotgun with 16 rounds in a swappable magazine to say “Yeah, I’d like that.”

ProfShadow on October 6, 2012 at 10:26 PM

Not so.

The .380 and 9mm are .355 inch diameter bullets. The .38 and .357mag are .358 inch diameter bullets.

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:11 PM

Technically, you are right-ish (though I thought they were closer than what you state and I no longer have my reloading books). As in you wouldn’t want to reload with the wrong bullet. As for differences in what they do, they are the same.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 10:29 PM

.380, .38, .357, 9mm…all the same bullet, just different power.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 7:35 PM

The .380 Auto is also called 9mm Kurz (short). It and the 9mm Parabellum (Luger) have a groove diameter of .355 inch.
The .38 and .357 have a groove diameter of .357 inch.
Loading 9mm bullets in the .38/.357 usually gives very poor accuracy. Loading .357″ bullets in 9mm can cause dangerously high pressure, particularly with jacketed bullets. Also the bullet weights are generally different with the 9mm’s using lighter bullets.

single stack on October 6, 2012 at 10:30 PM

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM

You ever check out this guy’s reloading page? He reloads a lot of calibers. As I said before I had to give it up for physical reasons. I just liked doing it. Sad day when I sold all my equipment. I think I have a few cases left and a scale but that’s about it. Don’t even have any manuals.

Oldnuke on October 6, 2012 at 10:35 PM

IF New York did pass a microstamping law, Remington could always simply refuse to sell or deliver guns to any NY dealer or distributor.
Barret did that when California put his .50 M82 on their “assault weapons” ban list. He will not sell or ship any of his guns to any Cali. government agency; nor will he do any work on any that they may already have in their armories. If a Cali. agency sends him one for work – he won’t even accept delivery. It goes straight back to the agency. He won’t even ship them spare/repair/replacement parts.

Solaratov on October 6, 2012 at 10:36 PM

I never understood why somebody would want a .38+P and not go all in for a .357.

All I could think of was some rule for police.

Folks can talk about the stopping power of a .45 all day. But just let them try to stop an engine block with one. The .357 can do that.

cozmo on October 6, 2012 at 8:31 PM

That’s why I love my .357 Mag wheel gun. For simple plinking, .38 Special. When +P is on sale, I buy a few boxes just for the additional poop. However, when I may need to stop a Greyhound Bus, the .357 is the only choice. But then, when I go pig hunting, I tend to take my .44 Mag. .44 Special hollow points give me similar stopping power without ruining as much meat. FWIW.

Crusader Rabbit on October 6, 2012 at 10:37 PM

More asinine rose colored glasses feel-good firearm legislation perpetrated by the colossally ignorant — and singularly foisted upon the backs of all law abiding good citizens only — as is always the case.

Run the manufacturers of firearms out of business with intentionally cost prohibitive and grossly irresponsible legislation and that pesky 2nd Amendment problem for thumb sucking pillow-biter bed wetters from sea to shining sea is essentially solved without ever even having to touch the US Constitution.

‘Booya’. Right?

Anyway — the firing pin is usually the very first component to wear out and require replacing in all guns due to the smashing of the pin into the primer cap of every bullet ever fired and the explosive forces the firing pin is subjected to with each and every single bullet fired. As such — manufacturers make replacing the firing pin/receiver in almost all guns nearly as simple as changing the batteries in your TV remote — and that is exactly what the crooks will do too. Such an easy thing to do that will render that slapdick legislation practically null and void right from the start. Go figure.

That is — unless they also legislate the gun manufacturing process itself even further and force the owners of manufacturing and design patents to change the manufacturing and design of their firearms to require permanent non-replaceable firing pins and permanent non-replaceable receivers — or — make it impossible to change the firing pin and/or receiver without a lengthy and expensive process requiring specially trained professionals using specially designed equipment along with a tracking process for every single gun made indicating that the worn out firing pin had been exchanged for a replica. It would be way too cost prohibitive for firearm manufacturers and firearm owners alike forcing manufacturers out of the American market or out of business altogether. Which — most likely — is their entire actual intent.

FlatFoot on October 6, 2012 at 10:38 PM

Oh yeah, to get back on topic, micro stamping is a solution in search of a problem. Super easy to overcome, but a huge cost to manufacturers of firearms. Stupid, stupid, stupid. But what would we expect from the looney left?

Crusader Rabbit on October 6, 2012 at 10:40 PM

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