Uh oh: Chinese ships sail into Japanese waters near disputed islands

posted at 10:03 pm on September 13, 2012 by Allahpundit

Twitter is blowing up over this as I’m writing. The best thing I can do to get you up to speed is send you to this nifty Foreign Policy precis of the standoff. Nutshell version: Japan says the islands, which it calls the Senkaku, belong to it. (In fact, the Japanese government formally purchased them from their private owners just two days ago, partly to prevent them from being bought by Japanese nationalists and developed to spite China.) China says that the islands, which it calls the Diaoyu, actually belong to it per post-WWII agreements. The U.S. is obliged by treaty to defend Japan if it’s attacked; on the other hand, the agreements China’s citing to stake its own claim to the islands were authored by the U.S. Time for the Foreign-Policy President and Hillary to huddle. Quickly.

Two eternally rival nations, one a rising power and the other fading, locked in a territorial dispute that stems in part from the last time they went to war with each other. What could go wrong?

In 1971, the U.S. and Japan signed a treaty reverting Okinawa and the surrounding islands back to Japanese control, which stated “the United States of America relinquishes in favour of Japan all rights and interests under Article III of the Treaty of Peace with Japan signed at the City of San Francisco.”

China points to its own agreement with the United States, the 1943 Cairo statement issued by Winston Churchill, Franklin Roosevelt and Chiang Kai-shek. The three leaders agreed that following the war, “Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, [Taiwan] and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China.” If you accept, as Beijing does, that Diaoyu was part of Chinese-ruled Taiwan prior to 1895, then that would indicate that it would be returned to China along with the other seized islands. (It would also mean that the U.S. military was bombing Chinese territory throughout the ’50s and ’60s, but that’s another issue.)

Despite the history, the U.S. State Department has stated that “the US does not take a position on the question of the ultimate sovereignty of the Senkaku Islands.” But further complicating matters is the 1960 Treaty of Mutual Cooperation and Security between the United States and Japan. According to Article 5 of the treaty, “Each Party recognizes that an armed attack against either Party in the territories under the administration of Japan would be dangerous to its own peace and safety and declares that it would act to meet the common danger in accordance with its constitutional provisions and processes.”

A State Department official told a Japanese news agency in July that the islands do fall under Article 5, so either the U.S. will be drawn in here on Japan’s side or else it’ll break the treaty to avoid a confrontation with China. (What that would mean for further Chinese aggression in the East China Sea, including Taiwan, who knows?) Anyway, the news tonight from Reuters:

Two Chinese patrol ships entered Japanese territorial waters near disputed islets claimed by both Beijing and Tokyo on Friday, Japan’s Coast Guard said, marking the latest incident in a long-running dispute between China and Japan.

The Chinese ships have not followed the coast guard’s order to go out of the territorial waters, a Japan coast guard official said.

According to Chinese media, they’re surveillance ships. Russia Today — which is a Kremlin-backed news outfit, for what it’s worth — says there are actually eight Chinese ships in the area, four inside the disputed zone and four outside, and that Japan has set up a “crisis center” and “urgently” summoned the Chinese ambassador. There’s another report floating around that, as of last night, three more Chinese surveillance ships were spotted near the Scarborough Shoal, another disputed territory — this one between China, Taiwan, and the Phillippines. Looks like China’s sending a message to all of its regional rivals at once. The Phillippines is itself ready to send ships to the shoal; no word yet on whether the Chinese ships are still there.

I’m seeing next to nothing on this so far in U.S. media, but Raymond Pritchett’s Twitter feed is chock full of new info. (Most of the above links are harvested from him.) Stick with his feed for updates. One interesting wrinkle: Apparently there’s a typhoon headed for the islands tonight, which might be the pretext used by both sides to pull out and save face/declare victory. Panetta’s scheduled to travel to the region “soon.” No doubt it’ll be sooner than he’d planned.


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It’s 3 AM. Barry is passed out in a Vegas hotel room with Biden and a hooker.

WisCon on September 13, 2012 at 10:09 PM

It was just Slow Joe, and that was where he learned of the big stick. The only catch is: all Slow Joe has for comparison are young boys he procured through Harry Reid.

bayview on September 13, 2012 at 10:54 PM

no problem president “no security briefings” Obama has this all under control. The sharks smell a big loss in November and are going to get as many seals as they can before a real American president gets in to office.

Lord help us when the man child loses and has his temper tantrum in the lame duck session.

Wile B. Obama
Foreign Policy Super Genius
Have Brain Will Travel

jukin3 on September 13, 2012 at 10:54 PM

No way China starts a war over this cheap real estate.

Corporal Tunnel on September 13, 2012 at 10:30 PM

.
On the plus side, you are absolutely correct that an “isolationist” America will result in the loss of many lives around the world.

You are, however, missing the fact that the 2,000,000+ square miles of ocean China decared to be a NEW PROVINCE in August happens to include oil reserves worth $ 2 trillion over the next 20 years.

If they succeed with the new province, they DUMP the U.S. Treasury debt to crash our markets and still come out ahead on the deal.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 10:55 PM

sharrukin on September 13, 2012 at 10:46 PM

It’s just saber-rattling. They are stirring up Nationalistic sentiment amongst their own population against their old nemesis. Interior Politics to prop up the commies.

Corporal Tunnel on September 13, 2012 at 10:50 PM

Well, I mean, how much propping do they need? ‘Cause what with tossing Obama, the upcoming senate elections, trying to tread water long enough for the water to recede, trying to convert paper into silver while paper will still buy silver, trying to manage the rising Caliphate in the middle east, washing the dog, and getting some teeth fixed while my dentist still has numbing agents and electricity –

I don’t think we need this right now.

Axe on September 13, 2012 at 10:57 PM

If you read about the 12th imam. He sounds an awful lot like our antichrist.

unseen on September 13, 2012 at 10:42 PM

I was told by a Biblical scholar that this is because the pedophilic barbarian used Revelation, or at least a verbal summary of it passed on by someone else, as the framework for the ’12th Imam’ nonsense.

MelonCollie on September 13, 2012 at 10:58 PM

Japan is an ally. I think. Well, they’re not an enemy anyway,

Presidentin’ is hard.

mankai on September 13, 2012 at 10:59 PM

No way China starts a war over this cheap real estate.

Corporal Tunnel on September 13, 2012 at 10:30 PM

These islands are pawns, but as they go, so will go the rest of their outrageous claims to new territory and the waters around them. It’s a test. It’s their Sudetenland.

slickwillie2001 on September 13, 2012 at 11:00 PM

It’s just saber-rattling. They are stirring up Nationalistic sentiment amongst their own population against their old nemesis. Interior Politics to prop up the commies.

Corporal Tunnel on September 13, 2012 at 10:50 PM

people said pretty much the same thing about Germany in 1930′s

unseen on September 13, 2012 at 11:02 PM

I take it that we didn’t feel the need to honor the treaty with China after they went commie, and we were at war with them, or just finishing the war in Vietnam when we gave the islands to Japan.

I think it’s time to sign a treaty with China that would let them continue to sell goods in the US ( highly taxed ) in return for several demands.

Buddahpundit on September 13, 2012 at 11:03 PM

I was told by a Biblical scholar that this is because the pedophilic barbarian used Revelation, or at least a verbal summary of it passed on by someone else, as the framework for the ’12th Imam’ nonsense.

MelonCollie on September 13, 2012 at 10:58 PM

could be. Never got into it that far. But a lot of islam is the opposite of christ’s teachings.

unseen on September 13, 2012 at 11:04 PM

It’s just saber-rattling.

Corporal Tunnel on September 13, 2012 at 10:50 PM

Famous last words.

sharrukin on September 13, 2012 at 11:05 PM

China attacks Japan at it’s own peril, Japan is not as soft and fading a target as many would like to believe. The old Samurai Warrior is sleeping, not dead.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:08 PM

Not our business. It’s between China and Japan. We should stay out. Wasn’t Japanese until they seized it at the beginning of their big militaristic push that included the rape of China.

Not our business.

On this one, we pop popcorn.

cane_loader on September 13, 2012 at 10:53 PM

.
You a VASTLY under-informed

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444184704577587483914661256.html

As the region has grown more prosperous, the sovereignty issues have become more fierce. Over the past two years Japan and China have openly clashed in the Senkaku Islands, east of Taiwan and west of Okinawa, whose administration is internationally recognized to be under Japanese control. Russia and South Korea have reasserted sovereignty claims against Japan in northern waters. China and Vietnam both claim sovereignty over the Paracel Islands. China, Vietnam, the Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia all claim sovereignty over the Spratly Islands, the site of continuing confrontations between China and the Philippines.

Such disputes involve not only historical pride but also such vital matters as commercial transit, fishing rights, and potentially lucrative mineral leases in the seas that surround the thousands of miles of archipelagos. Nowhere is this growing tension clearer than in the increasingly hostile disputes in the South China Sea.

On June 21, China’s State Council approved the establishment of a new national prefecture which it named Sansha, with its headquarters on Woody Island in the Paracel Islands. Called Yongxing by the Chinese, Woody Island has no indigenous population and no natural water supply, but it does sport a military-capable runway, a post office, a bank, a grocery store and a hospital.

The Paracels are more than 200 miles southeast of Hainan, mainland China’s southernmost territory, and due east of Vietnam’s central coast. Vietnam adamantly claims sovereignty over the island group, the site of a battle in 1974 when China attacked the Paracels in order to oust soldiers of the former South Vietnamese regime.

The potential conflicts stemming from the creation of this new Chinese prefecture extend well beyond the Paracels. Over the last six weeks the Chinese have further proclaimed that the jurisdiction of Sansha includes not just the Paracel Islands but virtually the entire South China Sea, connecting a series of Chinese territorial claims under one administrative rubric. According to China’s official news agency Xinhua, the new prefecture “administers over 200 islets” and “2 million square kilometers of water.” To buttress this annexation, 45 legislators have been appointed to govern the roughly 1,000 people on these islands, along with a 15-member Standing Committee, plus a mayor and a vice mayor.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:08 PM

Actually, China stopping its trade with US could be the best thing that could possibly happen. We will pay more for iFags and assorted plastic crap but jobless rate will take a sharp nosedive.

Archivarix on September 13, 2012 at 11:08 PM

Well, I mean, how much propping do they need? ‘Cause what with tossing Obama, the upcoming senate elections, trying to tread water long enough for the water to recede, trying to convert paper into silver while paper will still buy silver, trying to manage the rising Caliphate in the middle east, washing the dog, and getting some teeth fixed while my dentist still has numbing agents and electricity –

I don’t think we need this right now.

Axe on September 13, 2012 at 10:57 PM

And thats why its the best time for them to act. With this much on the plate the US will be more likely to let it slide than it might at another time.

The way these things work is that a belligerent nation tests the waters and if there is no reaction they proceed under the assumption that there will be nothing more than posturing and political protests. Thats how the first Iraq war started and how the Falklands started with those scrap merchants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8599404.stm

But some in London thought the scrap metal workers were the advance party of an invasion of South Georgia island, by the then ruthless Argentine military government.

It was reported that they had planted the Argentine flag and were singing their national anthem.

British Royal Marines were despatched from the Falkland Islands to find out.

The 39 scrap metal workers were detained. Argentina sent its troops to rescue them and, while they were about it, invaded the Falkland Islands.

sharrukin on September 13, 2012 at 11:10 PM

These islands are pawns, but as they go, so will go the rest of their outrageous claims to new territory and the waters around them. It’s a test. It’s their Sudetenland.

slickwillie2001 on September 13, 2012 at 11:00 PM

What ‘outrageous’ claims are you referring to?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:10 PM

unseen on September 13, 2012 at 10:53 PM

Have been, since the first I’d learned of it all … Like, 1990 or so.
Humans make bad choices, and pay for them.
One can only watch and pray.
ALOT.

pambi on September 13, 2012 at 11:11 PM

Yes, they can.

Schadenfreude on September 13, 2012 at 11:14 PM

but hey……obesity is our biggest threat to national security

must be alot of fat chi-coms?

sbark on September 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM

Good thing we’re drawing down our military to a “one war” strategy. Cause you know, war is so like, really really bad. And all. People just don’t do that.

BKeyser on September 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM

Japan has one of the best navies in the world.

Sherman1864 on September 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM

could be. Never got into it that far. But a lot of islam is the opposite of christ’s teachings.
unseen on September 13, 2012 at 11:04 PM

Islam = Ishmael (vs Isaac)
Whether the physical anti-Christ presently walks this earth or not, the spirit is running rampant, atm.
It most surely manifests in the Islamic tradition /Koran.

pambi on September 13, 2012 at 11:16 PM

What ‘outrageous’ claims are you referring to?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:10 PM

.
See my post 2 minutes before you asked this question.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:08 PM

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:19 PM

Japan has one of the best navies in the world.

Sherman1864 on September 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM

Indeed they do and they are not likely to be intimidated by the Chinese.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:19 PM

So Japan is one of our ‘treatied allies’, no ?
Yum.
/

pambi on September 13, 2012 at 11:21 PM

See my post 2 minutes before you asked this question.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:08 PM

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:19 PM

Those aren’t ‘outrageous’ claims, there claims with a reasonable historical basis. Claims that have long been maintained by both the PRC and ROC.

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:23 PM

Chinese have the numbers but absolutely no previous history of naval success and the Japanese have the electronic and a small but excellent navy. China would be wise to back off.

MaiDee on September 13, 2012 at 11:23 PM

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:24 PM

Those aren’t ‘outrageous’ claims, there claims with a reasonable historical basis. Claims that have long been maintained by both the PRC and ROC.

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:23 PM

Phuck off Chinese Troll.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:27 PM

If the 1943 treaty was with Kai Shek, then the Communist Chinese have no business attempting to get us or Japan to honor it. If anything, the islands should go to Tiawan – which is the Nationalist government-in-exile, yes?

JeffWeimer on September 13, 2012 at 11:27 PM

And thats why its the best time for them to act. With this much on the plate the US will be more likely to let it slide than it might at another time.

Right now, the JEF will let anything slide if it won’t hurt his reelection chances.

JeffWeimer on September 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM

My Grandfather[RIP] had spent the bulk of WWII in the Pacific Campaign with the US Marines as a Medic. He infrequently stated over the years as I was growing up that when World War 3 is initiated it will be because of a trade war that evolves into a military conflict between China and Japan — and that the US would initially be dragged into the conflict because of our WWII treaty with Japan ending the war. It certainly seemed like a far fetched prophecy at the time but he was an extremely intelligent man [150 IQ]. Plus, even still today — nearly 70 years later — there is a great deal of palpable resentment against Japan by the Chinese due to the atrocities that Japan committed against the Chinese during WWII. Grandpa may have been mostly correct about the end of the world after all.

However, Iran is still my first choice as WWIII initiator — for the time being anyway.

FlatFoot on September 13, 2012 at 11:31 PM

Phuck off Chinese Troll.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:27 PM

It’s a legitimately complicated situation with seemingly valid arguments on both sides. I personally don’t have a strong opinion as to who the Senkaku Islands belong to, though I do think the Chinese position is somewhat weakened by the fact that neither the PRC nor ROC seem to have made explicit claims that they were Chinese territory until near the end of the US occupation of Okinawa.

The Chinese claims in the South China Sea have a stronger foundation, IMHO.

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM

Those aren’t ‘outrageous’ claims, there claims with a reasonable historical basis. Claims that have long been maintained by both the PRC and ROC.

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:23 PM

.
Claiming islands long hundreds of miles from their coasts, historically recognized as parts of other sovereign nations, and unilaterally declaring them as a new prefecture does not rise to your level of outrageous claims?

Seriously ???

If they lay claim to Hawaii as payment for U.S. debt, I am guessing this would also receive a “pass” from you.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:35 PM

The Chinese claims in the South China Sea have a stronger foundation, IMHO.

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:33 PM

Phucking Chinese Troll thinks China has a legitimate claim to the whole world… Color me shocked.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:36 PM

Right now, the JEF will let anything slide if it won’t hurt his reelection chances.

JeffWeimer on September 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM

True and even some things that do hurt his chances.

I honestly do not really understand the guy in the White House. I can’t figure out if he is an opportunist, a dyed-in-the-wool socialist, a Jimmy Carter style Out-to-lunch liberal, someone promoted way beyond his competency level, or a secret Muslim.

sharrukin on September 13, 2012 at 11:38 PM

I suspect the reason we’re not hearing about this in the corporate media is that it’s deemed bad for business. That’s what happens when you’re in hock to the Chinese.

Dack Thrombosis on September 13, 2012 at 11:38 PM

If they lay claim to Hawaii as payment for U.S. debt, I am guessing this would also receive a “pass” from you.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:35 PM

Funny how the bastard Chinese cite treaties with Chiang Kai-Shek as justification, yet deny debts incurred by Chiang Kai-Shek to the United States, debts in the trillion dollar range.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:39 PM

If they lay claim to Hawaii as payment for U.S. debt, I am guessing this would also receive a “pass” from you.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:35 PM

Darkcurrent thinks anything the Chinese do is perfectly understandable.

sharrukin on September 13, 2012 at 11:39 PM

Phucking Chinese Troll thinks China has a legitimate claim to the whole world… Color me shocked.

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:36 PM

Did you miss the part where I indicated that I think the Japanese claim to the Senkaku Islands is somewhat stronger than the Chinese claim?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:41 PM

If the 1943 treaty was with Kai Shek, then the Communist Chinese have no business attempting to get us or Japan to honor it. If anything, the islands should go to Tiawan – which is the Nationalist government-in-exile, yes?

JeffWeimer on September 13, 2012 at 11:27 PM

Good point. If we have a treaty with a nation and that nation is conquered, it’s absurd to believe that the treaty stands with the conquerors. There is probably something about it in the Law of Nations literature.

Scotus might have to sort out some of it since I think they have jurisdiction over US treaty conflicts. Not that it would mean squat to other countries, but for resolving any conflict of the US position on the matter.

Buddahpundit on September 13, 2012 at 11:45 PM

Did you miss the part where I indicated that I think the Japanese claim to the Senkaku Islands is somewhat stronger than the Chinese claim?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:41 PM

.
Still waiting for your take on the new Chinese prefecture which includes islands/mineral rights/oil resources globally recognized as belonging to the Phillipine Islands.
.
Oh … and Hawaii.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:46 PM

What ‘outrageous’ claims are you referring to?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:10 PM

The South China Sea is not a Chinese lake. Their claims are simply outrageous. All parties need to agree on maritime boundaries like the rest of the civilized world does, which means borders roughly at the midpoint between two countries.

slickwillie2001 on September 13, 2012 at 11:47 PM

Did you miss the part where I indicated that I think the Japanese claim to the Senkaku Islands is somewhat stronger than the Chinese claim?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:41 PM

Did you miss the part where I said you were a Phucking Chinese Troll?

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:48 PM

Claiming islands long hundreds of miles from their coasts, historically recognized as parts of other sovereign nations, and unilaterally declaring them as a new prefecture does not rise to your level of outrageous claims?

Seriously ???

If they lay claim to Hawaii as payment for U.S. debt, I am guessing this would also receive a “pass” from you.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:35 PM

Really? When were the disputed territories in the South China Sea historically recognized as parts of other sovereign nations?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:52 PM

The South China Sea is not a Chinese lake. Their claims are simply outrageous. All parties need to agree on maritime boundaries like the rest of the civilized world does, which means borders roughly at the midpoint between two countries.

slickwillie2001 on September 13, 2012 at 11:47 PM

.
You have zero knowledge of maritime law if you believe it “means borders roughly at the midpoint between two countries.”
.
The U.S. uses the international standard of 12 miles off the coast.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:52 PM

Did you miss the part where I said you were a Phucking Chinese Troll?

SWalker on September 13, 2012 at 11:48 PM

No, I saw that. Do you have anything else to add, for example a basically informed opinion on the complex topic of the thread?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:53 PM

Really? When were the disputed territories in the South China Sea historically recognized as parts of other sovereign nations?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:52 PM

.
Yep – standard troll evasion

Where is your cubicle in the Ministry of Information?

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:54 PM

Great…There wasnt enough to worry about with the Arab Spring.

Rumors of war…

Second look at End Times anyone? For you scoffers, just remember; if it gets to a point where all seems lost and some guy comes along with the power to make it better, he’s called the AntiChrist. That’s bad. /not really kidding.

pannw on September 13, 2012 at 11:56 PM

if it gets to a point where all seems lost and some guy comes along with the power to make it better, he’s called the AntiChrist.

pannw on September 13, 2012 at 11:56 PM

I’d have sworn that already happened…..

SailorMark on September 13, 2012 at 11:59 PM

Basically if we don’t stand up to the Chinese now they will soon be making claims about the entire Pacific Ocean being part of their “core interest”. Don’t laugh either…Even the Russians are getting nervous because the Chinese have made claims in their territory as well.

William Eaton on September 14, 2012 at 12:00 AM

.
You have zero knowledge of maritime law if you believe it “means borders roughly at the midpoint between two countries.”
.
The U.S. uses the international standard of 12 miles off the coast.

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:52 PM

I am talking about economic exclusion zones, since this is all about oil, not territorial waters. First those zones have to be agreed on and after that these islands considered. Islands may mean islands of EEZ, or carveouts, or tradeoffs of some kind.

slickwillie2001 on September 14, 2012 at 12:00 AM

Yep – standard troll evasion

Where is your cubicle in the Ministry of Information?

PolAgnostic on September 13, 2012 at 11:54 PM

Talk about evasion…

It’s a legitimate question. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the disputed South China Seas territories were, in your words, “historically recognized as parts of other sovereign nations”?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:01 AM

Basically if we don’t stand up to the Chinese now they will soon be making claims about the entire Pacific Ocean being part of their “core interest”. Don’t laugh either…Even the Russians are getting nervous because the Chinese have made claims in their territory as well.

William Eaton on September 14, 2012 at 12:00 AM

Having the Russians involved is a good thing, maybe they will loan little Bammie some backbone.

slickwillie2001 on September 14, 2012 at 12:02 AM

No, I saw that. Do you have anything else to add, for example a basically informed opinion on the complex topic of the thread?

DarkCurrent on September 13, 2012 at 11:53 PM

Actually that is a highly informed opinion, not to mention highly accurate one as well. International law phuck face. 12 miles.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 12:04 AM

Actually that is a highly informed opinion, not to mention highly accurate one as well. International law phuck face. 12 miles.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 12:04 AM

So the US has no territorial claims beyond 12 miles offshore of the mainland? Don’t be a simpleton.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:09 AM

Does the UN get to sit this one out? If there was ever a time where it might serve a useful purpose…

Buddahpundit on September 14, 2012 at 12:11 AM

We have already stated a BHO policy of not maintaining a capability of maintaining a war on two fronts. China knows this. What happens to Taiwan if we are distracted by an Israeli/Iran conflict?

Difficultas_Est_Imperium on September 14, 2012 at 12:13 AM

Yakisoba for lunch. Now is that Japanese or Chinese? It seems there could be valid arguments for either…

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:16 AM

pannw on September 13, 2012 at 11:56 PM

We’ve been given ONE MORE choosing point.
THIS ELECTION IS MAJOR decision-time.
Trust in man ?? No way.
Trust in a godly path, you betcha.

pambi on September 14, 2012 at 12:20 AM

Yakisoba for lunch. Now is that Japanese or Chinese? It seems there could be valid arguments for either…

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:16 AM

No, it’s dinner for college-aged sluts that can’t afford their own birth control.

Corporal Tunnel on September 14, 2012 at 12:21 AM

It’s a legitimatemisdirection question so I don’t have to answer the question you raised first. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that the disputed South China Seas territories were, in your words, “historically recognized as parts of other sovereign nations”?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:01 AM

FIFY, troll

Third time – Your justification for the new Chinese prefecture and the inclusion of the islands belonging to the Phillipine Islands is ?????

(This is the easy part, troll. So far, YOU haven’t cited ANYTHING to support your position regarding China’s claims. You have just STATED your opinion and then DEMAND others prove you wrong – and then anything posted you will STATE is WRONG!)

NOTE: For the casual readers who don’t have a username – Hot Air is inundated with trolls working a variety of agendas. One of THE most common methods used by the trolls is laid out in my parenthetical comment directly above. I’ve given this troll the benefit of the doubt for three times. After someone is identified as a troll – no further direct conversation is worthwhile. Engaging an identified troll in conversation is EXACTLY the same as indulging a SPOILED BRAT.

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:21 AM

All we need are some aliens to come down and attack earth and that would have the economy Humming again.
Or we can to war against china – its the next best thing to aliens, right?

KMC1 on September 14, 2012 at 12:26 AM

Third time – Your justification for the new Chinese prefecture and the inclusion of the islands belonging to the Phillipine Islands is ?????

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:21 AM

No, I don’t think the PRC should have taken the provocative step of creating a fictitious municipality including disputed territory.

Now, do you have any evidence to support your claim that the territory in question has been historically recognized as part of other nations?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:30 AM

So the US has no territorial claims beyond 12 miles offshore of the mainland? Don’t be a simpleton.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:09 AM

Dear readers,

This is another troll manuever – intentional misstatement, if you are familiar with:

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal: Known for its never-ending hunger and its mind boggling stupidity, the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal is such a stupid animal that it thinks if you can’t see it, it can’t see you.

… then it is easy to understand the standard troll is SO stupid, he believes if he intentionally misquotes someone, the person will be as mind boggling stupid as they are (despite this being a thread which can easily be checked by scrolling back up the thread) and be flummoxed by their “trick”.

As you have no doubt noted, he is misquoting my statement ‘zero knowledge of maritime law if you believe it “means borders roughly at the midpoint between two countries.”‘ which had NOTHING to do with territorial claims.

Bonus points if you noticed that this fallacious “half-way” concept would defeat over two thirds of China’s outrageous claims.

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:32 AM

It’s 3 AM. Barry is passed out in a Vegas hotel room with Biden and a hooker George Clooney.

WisCon on September 13, 2012 at 10:09 PM

FIFY

viking01 on September 14, 2012 at 12:35 AM

Now, do you have any evidence to support your claim that the territory in question has been historically recognized as part of other nations?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:30 AM


How stupid is he ?????
He did not process this SIMPLE statement …

This is the easy part, troll. So far, YOU haven’t cited ANYTHING to support your position regarding China’s claims. You have just STATED your opinion and then DEMAND others prove you wrong – and then anything posted you will STATE is WRONG!)

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:37 AM

Face it. The Chicoms smell blood in the water after Obama’s week of weakness. Its a “shark bump” to see how the administration will react with stress building.

The rest of the world hates a power vacuum, and they see one with a gutless Obama in the White House.

Obama is an international joke at this point.

alecj on September 14, 2012 at 12:41 AM

As you have no doubt noted, he is misquoting my statement ‘zero knowledge of maritime law if you believe it “means borders roughly at the midpoint between two countries.”‘ which had NOTHING to do with territorial claims.

Bonus points if you noticed that this fallacious “half-way” concept would defeat over two thirds of China’s outrageous claims.

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:32 AM

Actually I wasn’t responding to anything you wrote. I was responding to SWalker as should be clear from the fact that I quoted SWalker.

Try again genius.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:42 AM

YOU haven’t cited ANYTHING to support your position regarding China’s claims. You have just STATED your opinion and then DEMAND others prove you wrong – and then anything posted you will STATE is WRONG!)

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:37 AM

Misdirection again? You clearly stated that the disputed South China Seas territories were historically recognized as part of other nations. I questioned that assertion, as I don’t know it to be true, though I could be wrong.

Now are you going to back up your assertion with some evidence or simply rant about trolls?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:45 AM

Bonus points if you noticed that this fallacious “half-way” concept would defeat over two thirds of China’s outrageous claims.

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:32 AM

DarkCurrent has foolishly fallen for the Chinese’s propaganda, that the Chinese are smarter than everyone else on earth, when in reality, they have really small penises and just aren’t all that bright, just violent a$$holes.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 12:52 AM

Bonus points if you noticed that this fallacious “half-way” concept would defeat over two thirds of China’s outrageous claims.

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:32 AM

DarkCurrent has foolishly fallen for the Chinese’s propaganda, that the Chinese are smarter than everyone else on earth, when in reality, they have really small p.enise.s and just aren’t all that bright, just violent a$$holes.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 12:53 AM

So the US has no territorial claims beyond 12 miles offshore of the mainland? Don’t be a simpleton.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 12:09 AM

12 miles beyond territory. That would include Hawaii, Guam, and Puerto Rico; to name a quick few off the top of my head. Ooh, Marianas Islands, too.

These disputed islands are over 100 miles from any of the three, unless they’re part of one of them – then they become territory and 12 miles out from that is territorial waters; Japan bought them to lay that claim. China is claiming hundreds of miles from undisputed territory is theirs, including these islands. Their claim is weak, without weaponry.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM

12 miles beyond territory. That would include Hawaii, Guam, and Puerto Rico; to name a quick few off the top of my head. Ooh, Marianas Islands, too.

These disputed islands are over 100 miles from any of the three, unless they’re part of one of them – then they become territory and 12 miles out from that is territorial waters; Japan bought them to lay that claim. China is claiming hundreds of miles from undisputed territory is theirs, including these islands. Their claim is weak, without weaponry.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 12:57 AM

The Japanese bought them? From whom? (I assume you’re talking about the Senkaku Islands here and not conflating that dispute with the South China Seas disputes.)

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:03 AM

PolAgnostic on September 14, 2012 at 12:37 AM

I’ve watched DC on here for a long time. I don’t think he’s a troll. He’s a conservative expat that lives in China. He has insights that those that lives in the states don’t have. I don’t always agree with him, but he’s always been civil, even in the face of insults from others.

ReaganWasRight on September 14, 2012 at 1:11 AM

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:03 AM

We are talking about the Senkaku islands, which are part of (and the latest flashpoint of) that dispute. Scroll back to the top and read Allahpundit’s post if you need a refresher.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:13 AM

I’ve watched DC on here for a long time. I don’t think he’s a troll. He’s a conservative expat that lives in China. He has insights that those that lives in the states don’t have. I don’t always agree with him, but he’s always been civil, even in the face of insults from others.

ReaganWasRight on September 14, 2012 at 1:11 AM

Bull$hit, I’ve watched him for a long time as well, he’s a phucking Chinese troll.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 1:14 AM

We are talking about the Senkaku islands, which are part of (and the latest flashpoint of) that dispute. Scroll back to the top and read Allahpundit’s post if you need a refresher.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:13 AM

Got it. The South China Seas dispute had also been brought up in the comments, so I wasn’t sure if your comment was limited just to the question of the Senkaku islands.

I agree Japan’s claim on the Senkaku islands is much stronger than China’s since neither the PRC or ROC governments made explicit claims they were Chinese territory until just before they reverted to Japanese control at the end of the US occupation of Okinawa.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:20 AM

ReaganWasRight on September 14, 2012 at 1:11 AM

Thanks

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:20 AM

For those of you new to the dispute, the reason it doesn’t get much discussion in American media is because it isn’t as big of a deal as it seems. The Chinese try to “Colonize” Senkaku more often than you’d expect, and there was even arrests made by the Japanese Coast Guard earlier this year after such an attempt. The same has been happening for decades with their claim on Taneshima Island, except with that one it’s a dispute with the Koreans and they call it Dokdo. The islands themselves aren’t that important or valuable, it’s mainly about claiming the ocean around the islands for fishing and resource mining rights.

Typhonsentra on September 14, 2012 at 1:29 AM

After the Libyans exposed the fecklessness of the Obama administration, all of the enemies and mischief-makers in the world got a strong signal that NOW is the time to do whatever the want – with no danger that the USA would interfere in a meaningful way. Posting guards with empty guns at our embassy was stupid beyond belief.

Iran remains the biggest danger, and it is clear that the Iranians consider it in their own self interest to act before January 2013 – when the USA might have a real President again.

landlines on September 14, 2012 at 1:29 AM

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:20 AM

Like I said earlier, if the 1943 agreement is to be honored, they should belong to ROC, since that is the regime that negotiated the agreement. But we’re well past that, and China seems to be attempting to assert rights well beyond international agreement IAW their claims to areas up to 200 miles from their mainland. This is merely the latest in that, and they want to claim authority from an agreement negotiated by another government that still exists seems to serve three (four?) purposes for them – it gains a possible energy source, it pokes the “rogue province” in the eye, and it rattles Japan (by extension, the US?).

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:35 AM

Typhonsentra on September 14, 2012 at 1:29 AM

Here’s an article about a recent attempt. Interesting to note the flags they were carrying and that only one of the group was from the mainland.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:37 AM

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:37 AM

Since Hong Kong and Macau have reverted back to China politically, it seems to be a distinction without a difference.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:44 AM

Like I said earlier, if the 1943 agreement is to be honored, they should belong to ROC, since that is the regime that negotiated the agreement.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:35 AM

IF we accept that they’re Chinese territory it’s unfortunate they weren’t returned to China immediately following the end of the war. Then they’d likely be controlled by ROC today and not a separate dispute.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:48 AM

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:48 AM

Exactly. Which makes the PRC claim IAW the 1943 agreement laughable. But it serves their purposes. One of which is to poke the ROC in the eye at every opportunity.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:52 AM

Exactly. Which makes the PRC claim IAW the 1943 agreement laughable. But it serves their purposes. One of which is to poke the ROC in the eye at every opportunity.

JeffWeimer on September 14, 2012 at 1:52 AM

Unfortunately the 1943 Cairo declaration and the 1945 Potsdam Declaration didn’t specifically mention the Senkaku Islands. If they had it wouldn’t be a dispute now.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 2:01 AM

Some facts:

Most of these claims originate from “maps” the Chinese use to dispute their territorial claims with Russia, India, Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines (notice the pattern). Since there are no archeological records supporting anyone’s claims to Senkaku, I’ll examine Chinese claims in/about Korea — since the same “maps” are used. You can find these maps online, replete with imaginary political borders and colored in with wonderful shades of pink, blue, yellow and green. All claiming that Korea was under Chinese control for two-thousand years.

Where are the Xia-Shang artifacts in Korea to support this claim? According to Archeologist Sarah M. Nelson, an expert in this matter, they do not exist. How did Chinese Scholars get around this problem? Well, they turned Gojoseon artifacts into Chinese. Problem solved!

Back to the islands in question.

Let’s look at the Senkaku islet Uotsuri, the largest of the deputed islands. The vegetation found on the islands (what hasn’t been eaten by the goats introduced in the 70′s) are of similar flora found in Taiwan, the Philippines and parts of Japan — nothing distinctly Chinese can be observed. Back in 1940, a year before the Pacific War, the previous owner of the islands gave up the dried bonito business. Uninhabited again, the islands faded into obscurity and after the war the US gave them to Japan as part the Okinawa Prefecture — not much more complicated than that. They had been privately owned and the US gave them to Japan… and now they’re privately owned again.

Chinese claims to Senkaku are as laughable as Russia’s claim to the Kuril Islands.

Here’s an article about a recent attempt. Interesting to note the flags they were carrying and that only one of the group was from the mainland.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 1:37 AM

Nonetheless, a pro-Beijing group waving both Chinese and Taiwanese flags.

Back to my late lunch…

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 2:04 AM

Unfortunately the 1943 Cairo declaration and the 1945 Potsdam Declaration didn’t specifically mention the Senkaku Islands. If they had it wouldn’t be a dispute now.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 2:01 AM

China doesn’t get to say jack $hit about any treaties signed in 1943 until after they have paid back the TRILLION dollars they owe America.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 2:08 AM

China doesn’t get to say jack $hit about any treaties signed in 1943 until after they have paid back the TRILLION dollars they owe America.

SWalker on September 14, 2012 at 2:08 AM

My intended point was that if the Cairo and Postdam declarations (not treaties) had been specific the islands might likely be under the control of the ROC. You know, the government that issued those bonds.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 2:29 AM

You know, the government that issued those bonds.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 2:29 AM

If the PRC doesn’t recognize the 1943 treaties as valid in applying to them, then they have no bearing on their claim to the islands.

sharrukin on September 14, 2012 at 2:34 AM

If the PRC doesn’t recognize the 1943 treaties as valid in applying to them, then they have no bearing on their claim to the islands.

sharrukin on September 14, 2012 at 2:34 AM

First of all, they weren’t treaties, they were declarations. Secondly, it’s not that China doesn’t recognize them, it’s that neither declaration was specific as to the status of the Senkaku Islands.

The issue might have been settled during the negotiations which produced the Treaty of San Francisco, but no Chinese government was included in those negotiations.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 2:44 AM

Hey. Is the drunk dullard even awake?

pat on September 14, 2012 at 3:01 AM

Hey. Is the drunk dullard even awake?

pat on September 14, 2012 at 3:01 AM


Give Obama a break, he’s had ‘a tough day’ — he and Biden spent the day playing pin-the-tail on the donkey, they’re exhausted.

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 3:24 AM

Back to my late lunch…

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 2:04 AM

Hope you don’t mind my asking, but are you located in East Asia as well?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 4:05 AM

Hope you don’t mind my asking, but are you located in East Asia as well?

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 4:05 AM


Yes, I’m living in Japan at the moment (Yokohama), and thankful the cicadas have finally died off around my place.

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 4:19 AM

Yes, I’m living in Japan at the moment (Yokohama), and thankful the cicadas have finally died off around my place.

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 4:19 AM

Nice. I spent a total of 9 years in Japan, most of it in Tokyo.

The semi are quite here now too.

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 4:22 AM

quite -> quiet

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 4:26 AM

It’s been 5 years for me, but back and forth from different places and (usually) eventually back to Miami. For me it’s been around the same place, Kanagawa prefecture. My stay this time might be a bit longer, not sure yet.

I can never get use to the things — particularly in my case, since I like having the mountain breeze come in. There’s no such thing as a cool breeze back home in Miami, unless you live on/by the ocean.

(Yes, summer in Japan for me is nice weather)

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 4:32 AM

Demosthenes on September 14, 2012 at 2:04 AM

DarkCurrent on September 14, 2012 at 2:44 AM

Thank you, both – my education continues.

OldEnglish on September 14, 2012 at 4:48 AM

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