Video: “Legitimate” rape? Update: Steelman blasts Akin

posted at 8:41 am on August 20, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Until yesterday, Todd Akin had a comfortable polling lead in Missouri over incumbent Senator Claire McCaskill in what had been the most vulnerable seat for Democrats this cycle.  Suddenly, one has to ask whether Akin has a, er, legitimate chance of beating McCaskill, or even a legitimate chance of avoiding a Torricelli maneuver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdisTOKom5I&feature=player_embedded

In the clip, Charles Jaco, of St. Louis Fox affiliate KTVI’s “Jaco Report,” asks Akin whether he thinks abortions ought to permissible in a situation where a woman is raped. While explaining his position, Akin claimed that pregnancy only rarely results from “legitimate rape.”

“Well you know, people always want to make it as one of those things where how do you slice this particularly tough, sort of ethical question,” he replied. “It seems to me first of all, from what I understand from doctors — that’s really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. But, let’s assume that maybe that didn’t work, or something. I think there should be some punishment, but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child.”

Good grief.  First, pregnancy from rape isn’t all that uncommon, as Twitchy discovered with just a little research; it’s around 5%.  At least one researcher has found that conception rates for rape actually exceeds that of single instances of consensual sex. Second, what in Akin’s mind constitutes legitimate rape?  Was he trying to distinguish between forcible rape and statutory rape?  If so, that’s a pretty fine distinction, and one that’s really nonsensical even in the argument Akin was trying to make.  And if he wanted to suggest that some women would lie about being raped in order to secure an abortion, then he’s really setting up an argument that any woman who is pregnant couldn’t really have been raped … which as noted above is simply not the case.

Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan distanced themselves from Akin’s argument at light speed:

A spokeswoman for Mitt Romney wrote late Sunday that the presumptive GOP presidential nominee and his running mate, U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, did not share Rep. Todd Akin’s sentiments on rape.

“Governor Romney and Congressman Ryan disagree with Mr. Akin’s statement, and a Romney-Ryan administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape,” Romney campaign spokeswoman Amanda Henneberg wrote.

Even Akin himself repudiated his earlier remarks:

“As a member of Congress, I believe that working to protect the most vulnerable in our society is one of my most important responsibilities, and that includes protecting both the unborn and victims of sexual assault.  In reviewing my off-the-cuff remarks, it’s clear that I misspoke in this interview and it does not reflect the deep empathy I hold for the thousands of women who are raped and abused every year.  Those who perpetrate these crimes are the lowest of the low in our society and their victims will have no stronger advocate in the Senate to help ensure they have the justice they deserve.

“I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue.  But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action. I also recognize that there are those who, like my opponent, support abortion and I understand I may not have their support in this election.

“But I also believe that this election is about a wide-range of very important issues, starting with the economy and the type of country we will be leaving our children and grandchildren.  We’ve had 42 straight months of unacceptably high unemployment, trillion dollar deficits, and Democratic leaders in Washington who are focused on growing government, instead of jobs.  That is my primary focus in this campaign and while there are those who want to distract from that, knowing they cannot defend the Democrats’ failed economic record of the last four years, that will continue to be my focus in the months ahead.”

“Those who want to distract from that” got a big boost from Akin himself.

Can Republicans replace Akin, if they so choose?  Apparently they can — but the deadline is tomorrow.  Of course, deadlines didn’t matter when Robert Torricelli became a political pariah in New Jersey, but there are a couple of differences.  First, it involved actual corruption, not a case of foot-in-mouth disease, and second, Torricelli was a Democrat.  If Republicans want Akin off the ticket, they’d have to act quickly, which means it won’t happen at all.

That means that Missouri will probably see a lot of debate over “legitimate,” and Republicans had better hope that Akin can legitimately change the subject soon.

Update: Chuck Todd hints that there may be more time than we think if Akin withdraws:

Well, the whole thing’s getting pretty complicated now, isn’t it?

Update II: Sarah Steelman, one of two challengers against Akin in the primary and Sarah Palin’s endorsed choice, blasted Akin this morning on Twitter:

On the other hand, poll analyst Sean Trende reminds us that politicians who say stupid things often don’t pay as much of a price as we’d think:

I’m not sure that this is a comforting thought.

Update III: Even less comforting — Clayton Williams actually lost that election in 1990 to Ann Richards.


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It’s really not that hard for a real pro-lifer to answer. In vitro clinics should be required to fertilize one egg at a time. If that limit were in place, the industry would evolve to support it. The fact that it’s not allows the industry to keep killing more babies than it produces.

See, logical consistency isn’t that hard now, is it?

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 1:58 PM

the success rate of in vitro fertilization and implantation are too low for such approach. imposing such procedure would amount to denying those couples babies they desire in a acceptable time frame and possibly at a much greater cost.
thats no good!

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:08 PM

Akins used his visit with Huckabee to clarify that by “legitimate”, he really meant “forcible”. He still won’t acknowledge that no, in fact, the female body does not have special mechanisms to prevent getting pregnant from rape, whether “legitimate” or “forcible” or what have you. It happens. A lot. He cannot be our nominee, he simply can’t.

BTW: Akins’ base is the christian conservatives. He’s lost Michelle Malkin. If you’ve lost Malkin, you’ve lost the christian conservatives. Gotta go.

alwaysfiredup on August 20, 2012 at 2:08 PM

Many years Mike Castle’s ACU rating was below 50% and at least one year he was in the 20s. Shed no tears for this man.

bw222 on August 20, 2012 at 1:58 PM

I’m not. What I’m trying to say is that he did not lose because he was Pro-Choice, that did not cause the deluge of national support to come to O’Donnell.

Bluray on August 20, 2012 at 2:08 PM

If liberals were pro-life, they’d be blowing up abortion clinics every day, and the media would be ok with that. Sort of like how they sympathize with Hamas and the Palistenians terrorism in Israel.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:09 PM

The SoCons need to study the progressives to figure out how to advance their agenda over a long period of time.

rickyricardo on August 20, 2012 at 2:05 PM

No thank you rickyretardo. Lying, cheating, and indoctrination are never a solid foundation for anything. Leftists gave up the fight to win any argument on the merits decades ago, and instead switched over taking over institutions. We need to take them back, but not with the leftist playbook in hand.

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Well I don’t know if Michelle Malkin speaks for all Christians.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:13 PM

I love how all the Palinistas think that Steelman should now suddenly jump in front of the runner-up Brunner simply because she was endorsed by Palin.

Anyway, it probably won’t matter as Akin has vowed to fight on:

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2012/08/todd-akin-rape-interview-/1#.UDJ-DURkipo

JFS61 on August 20, 2012 at 2:14 PM

All he’s got to say is he gets emotional about the abortion topic and he stuck his foot in his mouth. I thought he just used the wrong adjective myself, so the forcible rape thing sounds legit.

Nobody really thinks he is for rape in some sceniors dot hey?

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:14 PM

nathor,

I think abortion is the easiet thing to debate. I’m going to win the debate from a moral and scientific standpoint. When I got a pro-abortion person in yourself using the rape exception to the rule to defend all abortions, I’m winning the debate. :)

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 1:58 PM

I still believe in abortion rights in all circumstances if done very early in pregnancy. :P
just because I avoid the issue, does not mean I changed my opinion.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:15 PM

Most abortions aren’t done early in the pregnancy so that’s a strawman anyway. Most fetuses have brain waves, beating hearts, nevrous system (they feel pain) when they are aborted.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:16 PM

The only people who think Akin should stay are McCaskill and her allies, including liberal trolls in conservative websites.

Trende is out of his mind. Not only Clay Williams lost a very winnable race, Faye Boozman, the deceased brother of Sen. Boozman, lost his race to Blanche Lincoln in 1998 for saying pretty much the same thing – he called it “God’s little shield” (this is an old feminist theory that was recycled by the crazy wing of Evangelicals). That’s obviously the best example we have. And George Allen managed to lost a race he was supposed to win by 15 to 20 points due to the Macaca comment. Saying that a guy who was a very strong incumbent, seen as the frontrunner for the presidential nomination, survived a gaffe because he only lost by 0.5% is idiotic.

joana on August 20, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Allen was going to beat some fairly popular writer by 15 to 20 points? Get out of here.

The Macaca thing wasn’t racist, and that guy had been harrassing Allen at every campaign stop.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM

rape? naaa, the best argument to put prolifers in the defensive is the in vitro argument. meaning, what to do with all those dozens fertilized eggs(in prolifer terminology, babies), that are a byproduct of barren couples trying to have babies?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 1:54 PM

This is why I am against in vitro fertilization, and if I had not been able to get help to overcome my infertility in a pro-life way, I would not have pursued an in vitro solution.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 2:20 PM

Most if not every rape victim examined in an ER is given hormone or an IUD to prevent a negative pregnancy test from turning positive. You know this idiot would oppose that as well. Claire McCaskill is a smart cookie. And this will be just her second term?

Marcus on August 20, 2012 at 1:46 PM

Yep. Have had personal experience with that in our family. It was offered as an option. Would do it again in a heartbeat. Excellent emergency trauma physicians and support people, which I think helped a lot with the aftercare for the physical violence. Good outcome to a horrible event. Understandably, the victim is strongly in favor of allowing this same type option to other victims.

a capella on August 20, 2012 at 2:21 PM

Akin has got to go, and Cornyn gave him the nudge earlier today.

matthew8787 on August 20, 2012 at 2:22 PM

I still believe in abortion rights in all circumstances if done very early in pregnancy. :P
just because I avoid the issue, does not mean I changed my opinion.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:15 PM

And see this is really the whole point of things, isn’t it?
When some of us are willing to concede extraordinary circumstances,but limits to such things, folks like you are not.
Your “:P” icon does nothing to soften that. Either that or you truly don’t have any compassion for the unborn whatsoever & that icon is used as an eff you symbol.
Whatever the case, killing human beings, even if it early in their development, is actually wrong.
Unless you do not value all human life. Which you obviously do not.
Some life to you is more worthy than others.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:22 PM

Of course McCaskill and the MSNBC crowd are being restrained today; they’ll begin nuclear war on Wednesday, the point at which we cannot be rid of Akin.

They want Akin in until Wednesday. Tells us everything we need to know.

matthew8787 on August 20, 2012 at 2:23 PM

Akin isn’t the type to quit. Hah. you guys are fools if you think that guy will step down.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:24 PM

well the reporters on this tvs show knew how to get Akins into trouble and he stepped right into it. Heh. Amazing how dumb some politicians are.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:25 PM

The only people who think Akin should stay are McCaskill and her allies, including liberal trolls in conservative websites.

joana on August 20, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Broad brush. Not accurate.
But then I’m not a MO resident. So my opinion actually doesn’t matter.
And neither does your unless you are a resident of MO.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:26 PM

ALways follow the Romney model, shut up when you are ahead.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:27 PM

I still believe in abortion rights in all circumstances if done very early in pregnancy. :P
just because I avoid the issue, does not mean I changed my opinion.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:15 PM

BTW-I believe murdering for the sake of convenience is evil.
And I DON’T avoid such issues.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:28 PM

But then I’m not a MO resident. So my opinion actually doesn’t matter.
And neither does your unless you are a resident of MO.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:26 PM

I live in MO and my opinion doesn’t matter either. They don’t canvass us again until November.

alwaysfiredup on August 20, 2012 at 2:28 PM

Your choice is Akins or the liberal babe. Enjoy.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Most abortions aren’t done early in the pregnancy so that’s a strawman anyway. Most fetuses have brain waves, beating hearts, nevrous system (they feel pain) when they are aborted.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:16 PM

I think most abortion nowadays are done as early as possible. no need to point out the unpleasantness of the situation, it is well understood but still the decision might be for abortion.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM

Whatever the case, killing human beings, even if it early in their development, is actually wrong.
Unless you do not value all human life. Which you obviously do not.
Some life to you is more worthy than others.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:22 PM

I support capital punishement with the knowledge some innocents will be executed. I apply that same logic to the loss of innocent life when rape victims are not forced to carry the baby to term. No system works the way we would like all the time.

a capella on August 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM

So when you force a woman to have a child from rape, and then the child’s father wants to meet with said child, say at the prison or after he gets out, who gets the fun job of explaining to the child how they were conceived and why their dad is in prison?

Zekecorlain on August 20, 2012 at 11:51 AM

You act like there are no children that are the product of a rape. I grew up knowing a wonderful girl who’s life began as a rape and she and her mother were grateful that her mother did the right thing and let her live. Their lives were both stronger and better for it. Great family.

Who cares about the thug that committed a violent crime? If I had my way, violent rape offenders would be convicted and sentenced to capital punishment.

njrob on August 20, 2012 at 1:07 PM

You know, if having the baby actually became a common practice or at least a viable option to most women and not the reluctant last choice offered laws might actually be enacted to give the women/children rights and to take away any rights from the rapist.

kim roy on August 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM

nathor, that’s my point, you say it’s unplesant but you still support it all the same. If they were all done super early it wouldn’t be that big of an issue. :)

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM

@Badger40 of course some life is worth more then others, that’s the whole point of Triage. this false dictum that every fetus becomes a baby is poisonous. My mother had a Fallopian tube pregnancy and it nearly killed her. Do I care about that sack of cells more then my mom? No!. Do I care if a woman finds out that she is pregnant and then ends the pregnancy in a timely manner? No. Is the human population still climbing? Yup, is it not right and orderly that the woman gets to decide if she and the world are ready for her to bring another child into it? Should every hooker have a child? should every 14 year old carry a child to term? We have to respect the individual enough to trust them about carrying babies to full term. If they don’t feel they can, and they don’t want to send another child out to be adopted or put in foster care, then let them make their own choice.

Zekecorlain on August 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM

He’s pulling out

Schadenfreude on August 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM

BTW-I believe murdering for the sake of convenience is evil.
And I DON’T avoid such issues.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:28 PM

so do I, but we don’t share the same notion of murdering or personhood do we?
you trollish remarks wont change my opinion that a fertilized egg or posterior development stages are deserving of personhood status. I am truly unable to attach myself rationally or emotionally to a fertilized egg like I do to a newborn baby and I find your exaggerated care for the fertilized eggs and posterior development stages political and religious motivated to the point of lunacy.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM

the success rate of in vitro fertilization and implantation are too low for such approach. imposing such procedure would amount to denying those couples babies they desire in a acceptable time frame and possibly at a much greater cost.
thats no good!

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:08 PM

Neither is killing babies. Mine trumps yours. John & Jane can adopt without killing anyone.

Not to mention that (amazingly enough) I’m a firm believer in the ability of the marketplace to handle situations like that, can you imagine?

Hey, and that answers the “Who will adopt these unaborted babies?” question too! I just solved two problems with one post! See what logical consistency and not killing babies will do?

Why don’t you baby killers stop throwing out straw men and start justifying why killing babies is morally acceptable?

You should try it.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 2:41 PM

so do I, but we don’t share the same notion of murdering or personhood do we?
you trollish remarks wont change my opinion that a fertilized egg or posterior development stages are deserving of personhood status. I am truly unable to attach myself rationally or emotionally to a fertilized egg like I do to a newborn baby and I find your exaggerated care for the fertilized eggs and posterior development stages political and religious motivated to the point of lunacy.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:39 PM

Nathor, I’m sorry but that just doesn’t hold water. What is “personhood?”

A mother and a father that are sitting at home waiting for their baby to be born don’t call it a fetus. They don’t call it an embryo. They say things like “Hi, Baby!” and the father talks through the mother’s stomach like it’s a “person” and it’s listening!

The only time we try to apply this “personhood” argument is when we don’t want the child, and that’s the epitome of evil. To deny someone their humanity because of unwant is WRONG!

It’s ridiculous to insist that “personhood” is somehow a function of intent.

But let’s try some logic. What defines “personhood” to you?

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 2:44 PM

nathor, that’s my point, you say it’s unplesant but you still support it all the same. If they were all done super early it wouldn’t be that big of an issue. :)

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM

that is really it! it takes a psychopath to like abortions. I don’t! but I refuse the moral absolutes that some prolifers frame this issue. I just cannot see a fertilized egg as a person and killing it murder…

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:45 PM

@Badger40 of course some life is worth more then others, that’s the whole point of Triage. this false dictum that every fetus becomes a baby is poisonous. My mother had a Fallopian tube pregnancy and it nearly killed her. Do I care about that sack of cells more then my mom? No!. Do I care if a woman finds out that she is pregnant and then ends the pregnancy in a timely manner? No. Is the human population still climbing? Yup, is it not right and orderly that the woman gets to decide if she and the world are ready for her to bring another child into it? Should every hooker have a child? should every 14 year old carry a child to term? We have to respect the individual enough to trust them about carrying babies to full term. If they don’t feel they can, and they don’t want to send another child out to be adopted or put in foster care, then let them make their own choice.

Zekecorlain on August 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM

False dichotomy in most of your examples. You don’t have to choose between the mother and child.

For the hooker, you make them carry the baby to term because they chose to hook.

For the 14-year old, you help them carry the baby as far as they can, then deliver the baby and do what is possible to save its life as a preemie.

The only real example you gave that holds water is the ectopic pregnancy. In that case, you recognize that the baby will never live and you abort the fetus to save the mother.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 2:48 PM

The left celebrated too soon.

He’s getting out.

Schadenfreude on August 20, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Neither is killing babies. Mine trumps yours. John & Jane can adopt without killing anyone.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 2:41 PM

an in vitro fertilized egg is NOT a baby!

also, although I think very well of people that adopt, many people, myself included, give a huge importance to have your own baby. and this is the main reason why people try in-vitro instead of adoption. you are forcing some people to do things they dont want and imposing on them your moral code.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:52 PM

an in vitro fertilized egg is NOT a baby!

also, although I think very well of people that adopt, many people, myself included, give a huge importance to have your own baby. and this is the main reason why people try in-vitro instead of adoption. you are forcing some people to do things they dont want and imposing on them your moral code.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:52 PM

Even if you put it in bold and italics, as well as all caps, it still doesn’t make your assertion correct. Sorry.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 2:54 PM

Whoa. Cheers!!!!

alwaysfiredup on August 20, 2012 at 2:58 PM

Oh, so there is abortion-abortion, and just abortion? Just abortion is ok, but abortion-abortion, now that is a step too far?
cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 12:25 PM

Taking a pill which prevents the egg from implanting in the uterus does fit my definition of “abortion” but the Catholic Church believes it is. I would certainly hope that legislators, no matter what their religious beliefs or personal views, would not seek to ban this remedy. And to be clear, I also respect the First Amendment right of the Catholic Church not to dispense this remedy.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 3:02 PM

Someone’s probably already pointed it out but I’m not going through 8 pages of comments to find out…

Funny, I don’t recall much liberal outrage to this prominent Obama supporter when she said this.

Scrappy on August 20, 2012 at 3:05 PM

Taking a pill which prevents the egg from implanting in the uterus does fit my definition of “abortion” but the Catholic Church believes it is. I would certainly hope that legislators, no matter what their religious beliefs or personal views, would not seek to ban this remedy. And to be clear, I also respect the First Amendment right of the Catholic Church not to dispense this remedy.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 3:02 PM

So you agree that abortion is ok, but not abortion-abortion.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:06 PM

The only time we try to apply this “personhood” argument is when we don’t want the child, and that’s the epitome of evil. To deny someone their humanity because of unwant is WRONG!

yes, but if you translate that to “denying a fertelized egg its humanity because it is unwanted is evil”, it just seems a bit of a silly statement. humanity cannot be bottled up in a single cell. I might choose to love it, but doing the opposite is also ok by me.

It’s ridiculous to insist that “personhood” is somehow a function of intent.

you can choose love that single cell as a baby or not, and I am ok with both decisions

But let’s try some logic. What defines “personhood” to you?

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 2:44 PM

for societal law, I think it should be some early stage of fetal development.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:06 PM

for societal law, I think it should be some early stage of fetal development.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:06 PM

I agree. Let’s pick “the moment a new entity with unique DNA is created”.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:08 PM

an in vitro fertilized egg is NOT a baby!

also, although I think very well of people that adopt, many people, myself included, give a huge importance to have your own baby. and this is the main reason why people try in-vitro instead of adoption. you are forcing some people to do things they dont want and imposing on them your moral code.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 2:52 PM

I understand the desire, but “huge importance” does not justify killing babies. As was said well by cptacek, putting it in bold emphasizes your point, but does not an argument make.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 3:11 PM

Unless you do not value all human life. Which you obviously do not.
Some life to you is more worthy than others.

If you really believed that Badger40 you’d be more pacifist than Gandhi and utterly opposed to capital punishment. I suspect neither is true. What gives?

lostmotherland on August 20, 2012 at 3:12 PM

Nope, don’t think he is getting out. At least that was what he said just awhile ago…

sandee on August 20, 2012 at 3:13 PM

For societal law, I think it should be some early stage of fetal development.

No, you don’t get to weasel out by deferring to society. When does your fetus become a person? In your opinion?

I’d wager that no criteria you specify will avoid a logical contradiction.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 3:14 PM

I agree. Let’s pick “the moment a new entity with unique DNA is created”.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:08 PM

why is new dna so important? I cannot be rationally or emotionally attached to new DNA.
also, does that mean if a woman has monozigotic twins(same DNA) is it ok to kill one of them?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:14 PM

You know, if having the baby actually became a common practice or at least a viable option to most women and not the reluctant last choice offered laws might actually be enacted to give the women/children rights and to take away any rights from the rapist.

kim roy on August 20, 2012 at 2:30 PM

Yes I do know that and I pray it becomes common practice someday.

The witch hunt going after Akin is unfair and people should look at their own mistakes from time to time before judging him so harshly. That said, as I said in my first comment, this is politics and because of such he needs to go. I hope the report from his staff is correct.

njrob on August 20, 2012 at 3:16 PM

Psychological issues,to a certain degree, ARE within peoples’ control.
I’m not talking about being bipolar or schizophrenic here.
I’m talking about having a tendency to be weak in a certain area, like morality or being addicted to something etc.
We’re talking about a person being able to use deductive reasoning to overcome their emotional response & do the right thing.
I was ‘over’ my rape within a few days.
Bcs I chose not to let it control me the way some women do.
There are women who milk this stuff forever. There are women who use this stuff to become stronger & help others.
Bad stuff happens to everyone.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 12:46 PM

The only true control one has in some instances is to make the step to seek a competent therapist. All psychological conditions can be addressed, but there certainly are occasions where a patient may never be able to achieve a successful result.
Many less stressful events than rape, can trigger a serious psychological disorder, especially in those who are genetically pre-disposed. Losing a job, or a divorce….can set off a wide variety of stress related illnesses. I believe you were fortunate (and strong willed )in that this horrific event in your life did not result in some long lasting psychological illness. Some women may not escape that.

And I’m sure there would be some women that would use the tragedy of rape to gain sympathy and play the eternal victim. But I believe the majority of rape victims want to get past that incident in their life, but some are left with very unwanted after effects.

lynncgb on August 20, 2012 at 3:18 PM

why is new dna so important? I cannot be rationally or emotionally attached to new DNA.
also, does that mean if a woman has monozigotic twins(same DNA) is it ok to kill one of them?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Because new DNA is a unique dividing line that can be scientifically observed. All other “dividing lines” are subject to emotion and judgement calls. 1st trimester, 2nd trimester, 22 weeks vs. 23 weeks. None of these can be accurately measured unless the woman is tracking her ovulation.

Hey, you are the one who is ok with killing babies, so don’t try to paint me as the person ok with killing one of two twins.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:19 PM

The problem with nathor’s logic is he’s deciding what he is comfortable with regarding when life starts. It’s not science, it’s based in his belief.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 3:20 PM

Any hack on the internet can talk about fertifilized eggs and DNA but that doesn’t mean they know when life starts or when life is viable. One would suspect if life’s viablility was that subjective, it would be a different date for everybody so some of the abortions you support based on your date of viablity would be sure to be killing some life.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 3:27 PM

I understand the desire, but “huge importance” does not justify killing babies. As was said well by cptacek, putting it in bold emphasizes your point, but does not an argument make.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 3:11 PM

all I can say is that creating and killing dozens of fertilized eggs so that I could have my desired child is really a very very easy decision for me to take. you can cry for those “murdered babies” if you wish. I would take comfort on looking to my newborn baby fruit of that in vitro process.
by the way, if you are really against in vitro fertilization, you cannot really be “pro life”.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:28 PM

What cracks me up about Nathor is he or she isn’t pro life but wants to define it all the same.

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 3:29 PM

by the way, if you are really against in vitro fertilization, you cannot really be “pro life”.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:28 PM

lol. That is just stupid.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:30 PM

Idiot.

Dunedainn on August 20, 2012 at 3:31 PM

In Nathor’s world, t he only people who want to have abortions are women who will die in childbirth or have been raped, and all the rest are women who have the abortion done a few weeks after pregnancy. Who believes that? :)

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 3:32 PM

If Big Red Erickson is reporting this guy is dropping out, I wouldn’t believe it. He tells a lot of tall tales. :)

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 3:33 PM

Because new DNA is a unique dividing line that can be scientifically observed. All other “dividing lines” are subject to emotion and judgement calls.

I think other scientific dividing lines can be made.

1st trimester, 2nd trimester, 22 weeks vs. 23 weeks. None of these can be accurately measured unless the woman is tracking her ovulation.

lets say, if your target is week 22, make it week 14.

Hey, you are the one who is ok with killing babies, so don’t try to paint me as the person ok with killing one of two twins.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:19 PM

its a real question. if you divide the embryo in early stages, its potentially another baby.
imagine, if I divide embryo and kill one half while the remaining half then continues growing without problem.
did I just committed murder?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:37 PM

First!

Akzed on August 20, 2012 at 3:43 PM

imagine, if I divide embryo and kill one half while the remaining half then continues growing without problem.
did I just committed murder?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:37 PM

I thought in your view, it is ok to dispose of an embryo. Why did you just say you killed that half?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:44 PM

I think other scientific dividing lines can be made.

Such as?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:44 PM

All that needs said if a baby results from a rape, no adjectives/qualifiers needed…ever, it is 100% the rape victims choice to have or not to have the baby and its no one elses and I mean no one elses business…period. The same goes for a woman facing the choice between her or her unborn baby’s life, its the woman’s choice…period. It definitely in these cases none of any Governments damn business…period.

aposematic on August 20, 2012 at 3:45 PM

lets say, if your target is week 22, make it week 14.

Cool. Let’s say my target is week 9. So week 1 is ok with you?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:45 PM

…and all the rest are women who have the abortion done a few weeks after pregnancy. Who believes that? :)

Dr. Tesla on August 20, 2012 at 3:32 PM

for most educated, independent and affluent women that have undesired pregnancies, and if they are ok with abortion, indeed an early as possible abortion is how what most of them desire and I guess is what most of them get.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Akin’s own twitter feed (him begging for $ to stay in the race) has immediate negative replies — to get out.

I don’t do twitter, but for those of you who do, tell him to get out.

matthew8787 on August 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Psychological issues,to a certain degree, ARE within peoples’ control.
I’m not talking about being bipolar or schizophrenic here.
I’m talking about having a tendency to be weak in a certain area, like morality or being addicted to something etc.
We’re talking about a person being able to use deductive reasoning to overcome their emotional response & do the right thing.
I was ‘over’ my rape within a few days.
Bcs I chose not to let it control me the way some women do.
There are women who milk this stuff forever. There are women who use this stuff to become stronger & help others.
Bad stuff happens to everyone.
It’s how you choose to deal with it that eludes to your character.
And that is where society, parenting, communal support, laws, etc come into play.
There are lots of weak people out there.
I remember when 9/11 happened & how people who had no connection to the incident other than being American were so debilitated by what had happened they were crying & tearing their hair out, missing work, getting depressed, etc.
We have become a culture that has I think focused on feelings too much.
There is a time to do so. But we do it all the time.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 12:46 PM

I was still living in Europe when 9/11 happened, but it was emotionally difficult for me, because of what the United States meant for me. And I know that I wouldn’t be over a rape withing a few days.

If that means that I am not a conservative or otherwise inferior, so be it.

Gelsomina on August 20, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Cool. Let’s say my target is week 9. So week 1 is ok with you?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:45 PM

no, my target is 12. :P

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:49 PM

This reminds me of Whoopee Goldberg’s “rape rape” comment.

This guy definitely put his foot in his mouth and his comment is offensive.

Having said that, I don’t support abortion in cases of rape, and I am a woman. A baby cannot help how it is conceived, so I don’t feel the unborn should be killed for the biological father’s sin.

TigerPaw on August 20, 2012 at 3:49 PM

Such as?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:44 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:51 PM

So you agree that abortion is ok, but not abortion-abortion.
cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:06 PM

You’re worse than the Liar-in-Chief.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 3:52 PM

This guy is on Hannity right now and he is not dropping out. Shawn has come this close )( to asking him to drop out and he said no.

Night Owl on August 20, 2012 at 3:53 PM

All that needs said if a baby results from a rape, no adjectives/qualifiers needed…ever, it is 100% the rape victims choice to have or not to have the baby and its no one elses and I mean no one elses business…period. The same goes for a woman facing the choice between her or her unborn baby’s life, its the woman’s choice…period. It definitely in these cases none of any Governments damn business…period.

aposematic on August 20, 2012 at 3:45 PM

Nope, that’s abortion on demand and we don’t support the murder of innocent unborn children. You’re a lefty so I’m not surprised you’d be so savage, but enlightened people understand you cannot take an innocent life so casually.

njrob on August 20, 2012 at 3:54 PM

All that needs said if a baby results from a rape, no adjectives/qualifiers needed…ever, it is 100% the rape victims choice to have or not to have the baby and its no one elses and I mean no one elses business…period. The same goes for a woman facing the choice between her or her unborn baby’s life, its the woman’s choice…period. It definitely in these cases none of any Governments damn business…period.

aposematic on August 20, 2012 at 3:45 PM

All on the power of your say so, eh? Care to make a logical argument or would you rather just force your moral view on the rest of us?

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 3:56 PM

So now, in addition to being stupid, Akin is pigheaded, too.

Selfish bastard.

Romney, NRSC and others need to hit this guy harder. Ridiculous he wasn’t gone this morning given the stakes.

matthew8787 on August 20, 2012 at 3:56 PM

He’ll drop out. Someone will make him an offer he can’t refuse.

gracie on August 20, 2012 at 3:56 PM

lol. That is just stupid.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:30 PM

if a from the whole process of in-vitro fertilization, a life is created while forbidding it means no life will be created, then indeed opposing in-vitro fertilization is not being “pro-life”. I would call it “pro-fertilized egg” or “pro-better no life than a single fertilized egg killed”

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:57 PM

But moreover, if what this man has said dicatates that he should go, then what Paul supported (or possibly wrote himself) in his newsletter was more than enough to prejudice any serious consideration for him even holding the office he now holds.

The levels of wild hypocrisy you achieve and the mental gymnastics one would need to arrive at your conclusions never fails to astound me.

hawkdriver on August 20, 2012 at 1:37 PM

And once again, your inability to comprehend even the most basic realities of electoral politics astounds me.

Once again, do you have videotape of Ron Paul saying those things? Because, in case nobody told you, videotape loses some of its magic when trying to convey the printed word.

Paul didn’t say those things, he didn’t write those things, and he sure as hell never said them in front of a camera. Amateurs don’t get that point. But pros sure as hell do.

And I assure you, Claire McCaskill employs some heavy hitting pros.

JohnGalt23 on August 20, 2012 at 3:58 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood#Biological_markers

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:51 PM

Nathor, you keep referring to other peoples’ standards for personhood. As I asked before, if you feel so strongly on the topic, why don’t you tell us what YOUR standard is for personhood, not society’s potential standards?

Or is it that you know that if you take an actual stand we’ll tear your argument apart like the whole cloth it’s made from?

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 3:59 PM

You’re worse than the Liar-in-Chief.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 3:52 PM

You are the one who distinguished between abortion and abortion-abortion. Don’t disparage me when I highlight that fact.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Or is it that you know that if you take an actual stand we’ll tear your argument apart like the whole cloth it’s made from?

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 3:59 PM

dude, I am really not sure. I am sure of this:
fertilized egg: abortion is ok.

the current limit of 3 months, does not bother me much, so i guess I am ok with it.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:10 PM

The only people who think Akin should stay are McCaskill and her allies, including liberal trolls in conservative websites.

joana on August 20, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Broad brush. Not accurate.
But then I’m not a MO resident. So my opinion actually doesn’t matter.
And neither does your unless you are a resident of MO.

Badger40 on August 20, 2012 at 2:26 PM

We may not be voting in Missouri, but the outcome sure as hell affects the rest of us, or am I wrong also.

DDay on August 20, 2012 at 4:12 PM

dude, I am really not sure. I am sure of this:
fertilized egg: abortion is ok.

the current limit of 3 months, does not bother me much, so i guess I am ok with it.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Because, after all, that’s a puppy growing in there, isn’t it?///

kingsjester on August 20, 2012 at 4:16 PM

@Badger40 of course some life is worth more then others, that’s the whole point of Triage. this false dictum that every fetus becomes a baby is poisonous. My mother had a Fallopian tube pregnancy and it nearly killed her.

Zekecorlain on August 20, 2012 at 2:36 PM

I always love how the pro-baby killers whip the strawmen because they can’t hope to compete on the merits of their argument. Point to single person on this board, or a single elected politician that does not believe in an exception for when the mother may die.

Do I care about that sack of cells more then my mom? No!. Do I care if a woman finds out that she is pregnant and then ends the pregnancy in a timely manner? No. Is the human population still climbing? Yup, is it not right and orderly that the woman gets to decide if she and the world are ready for her to bring another child into it? Should every hooker have a child? should every 14 year old carry a child to term? We have to respect the individual enough to trust them about carrying babies to full term. If they don’t feel they can, and they don’t want to send another child out to be adopted or put in foster care, then let them make their own choice.

“Should every mother be allowed to strangle her newborn infant after having a bad day? Absolutely! A life taken is an inconvenience avoided. And really, who wants to be inconvenienced with the most important and precious thing humanity has to offer? I mean come on! Someone might miss a nail appointment for cripes sake!”

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:17 PM

1. To anyone that can actually THINK, it is quite clear what he meant by ‘legitimate’ rape. He was referring to those trashy women who claim that they were raped after they decide they don’t like the guy they mounted previously and/or they get pregnant (gee, go fig) and freak out, and use said claim as ‘justification’ for murdering their baby.

2. Thanks to Ryan and Romney for reminding me that voting for them is the equivalent of cleaning up after my dog. Wait, scratch that; I’d rather clean up after my dog. So they support abortion in the instance of rape, eh? In other words, they oppose it in most other cases, ostensibly because it is murder, but then, according to them, it’s ok to execute a baby for its father’s sin. Makes sense.

3. The more I realize the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of America’s ‘right’, the more I realize we’re doomed and that we deserve it.

avgjo on August 20, 2012 at 4:22 PM

You are the one who distinguished between abortion and abortion-abortion. Don’t disparage me when I highlight that fact.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Gawd you’re a jackass. It was satire, picking up on the theme of “rape rape”. Did you miss the part about preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the womb? If you want to claim that ending a pregnancy before there is an embryo is the same as a surgical “abortion” have at it, but leave me out of the discussion. I’m not a Catholic so I have no reason (either moral, ethical, or medical) to put both in the same category.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 4:23 PM

I agree. Let’s pick “the moment a new entity with unique DNA is created”.

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:08 PM

That’s a toughy. When is that exactly? Probably when they turn 18 and can vote. No, wait! When they turn 26 and no longer hold their parents health insurance hostage with their laziness! Because we know it isn’t when the egg is fertilized. That is just a clump of amorphous cells that when tested could be anything!

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:24 PM

If you really believed that Badger40 you’d be more pacifist than Gandhi and utterly opposed to capital punishment. I suspect neither is true. What gives?

lostmotherland on August 20, 2012 at 3:12 PM

We might have to clear out this thread as a fire hazard.

“I’m going to make a tired and dishonest argument that I already know the answer to and think I’ve zinged you. What gives?!?”

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:26 PM

I thought in your view, it is ok to dispose of an embryo. Why did you just say you killed that half?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:44 curious PM

because its the typical prolife rethoric:
dispose? light words for murdering a BABY! its a baby and we are killing it! isent that half a potential human being or something?

but your answer was ok! I am amazed. but lets follow its consequences:
you take an embryo and divide it and implant it on a woman(instead of killing one half as you earlier agreed it was ok). At 3 months, I abort(dispose) one of the fetus. is this still not murder? why not?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:28 PM

I cannot be rationally or emotionally attached to new DNA.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 3:14 PM

That sounds like a personal failing. A soul bereft of any human decency would certainly have a hard time understanding what abortion really means.

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:28 PM

I thought in your view, it is ok to dispose of an embryo. Why did you just say you killed that half?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 3:44 curious PM

sorry, i misread you… you did not agree :(

but you also evaded my question. is it killing one half of a divided embryo murder or not?

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:31 PM

That sounds like a personal failing. A soul bereft of any human decency would certainly have a hard time understanding what abortion really means.

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:28 PM

not caring about DNA is not a personal failure. get a grip!

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:35 PM

This guy is on Hannity right now and he is not dropping out. Shawn has come this close )( to asking him to drop out and he said no.

Night Owl on August 20, 2012 at 3:53 PM

I heard the interview and I am more convinced then ever he should stay in. Every God d@maned bed wetter on our side needs to stop with this witch hunt nonsense and get on with winning in November. Hannity infuriated me with his pushing to get Akin out. None of this based on anything but being terrified of media driven memes. Every single person who continues to harp that Akin should get out are demonstrating cowardice in the face of difficulty.

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:35 PM

not caring about DNA is not a personal failure. get a grip!

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:35 PM

I wouldn’t expect such an empty soul to understand otherwise.

NotCoach on August 20, 2012 at 4:36 PM

dude, I am really not sure. I am sure of this:
fertilized egg: abortion is ok.

the current limit of 3 months, does not bother me much, so i guess I am ok with it.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Nathor, thanks for answering. It sounds to me like you have some thinking to do. You say “I am really not sure” on an issue that means the difference between a surgical procedure and murder.

Fact is, it can’t be just an issue of time. Three months? Four months? Babies develop at different rates. So maybe baby #1 becomes a person at 2 months & 29 days. IF there’s a condition for personhood, it’s not time, but development.

Thing is, that doesn’t work either. Think about it this way. Let’s suppose that it’s when the heart starts beating. In other words, a heartbeat defines personhood. Then if someone’s heart stops beating in an ER, shouldn’t we all just walk away? Same with brain activity, or breathing, or movement.

That’s the thing. Nobody can point to any kind of event that somehow magically confers this status of “personhood.” And given that, I choose to come to the logical conclusion that being human makes you a person, irrespective of what point in the developmental cycle you are.

That’s the way I see it.

Cheers.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 4:45 PM

Gawd you’re a jackass. It was satire, picking up on the theme of “rape rape”. Did you miss the part about preventing the fertilized egg from implanting in the womb? If you want to claim that ending a pregnancy before there is an embryo is the same as a surgical “abortion” have at it, but leave me out of the discussion. I’m not a Catholic so I have no reason (either moral, ethical, or medical) to put both in the same category.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Why the hostility? If you are ok with killing a fertilized egg before implantation (in your terms, abortion) but not with killing a fertilized egg after implantation (in your terms, abortion-abortion) then that is your moral judgement. I can disagree with it and point out the logical inconsistency of that without calling you names. Why can’t you logically say why one is different from the other without referencing religion?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 5:01 PM

That’s the thing. Nobody can point to any kind of event that somehow magically confers this status of “personhood.”

i agree very much.

And given that, I choose to come to the logical conclusion that being human makes you a person, irrespective of what point in the developmental cycle you are.

RationalIcthus on August 20, 2012 at 4:45 PM

I think we are framing the argument wrong. this started with killing fertilized egg = murder. Assuming the full emotional charge of this accusation seems incomprehensible and maybe impossible to me.

while I can agree to the perfection of your personhood definition and to be honest, if there was no further consequences to it, maybe I would agree.

but there is consequences, that is the imposition of pregnancy on women to defend the life of that “baby\fetus”.

and my calculation is that at that early stage, I cannot give more value to that “baby\fetus\fertilized egg” that to the women free will.

If a women comes to me and says, I don’t want the baby. I just give more value to that woman will than to the life of the undeveloped being she carries and I cannot see myself forcing her to have the child that at that stage, I frankly cannot feel emotionally attached to.

where to stop? where does the will of the women loses to the imperative of protecting the life of gestating baby? I think our society gave this 3 month as an arbitrary date that we could be comfortable with( at least I am). It gives the woman enough space to think and act according to her choice.

the prolifers are annoying absolute moralists that take this “life begins at conception” and use it to bludgeon people that take an already painful abortion choice and even deny any arguments that that early life might not be more important than the the free will of women.

nathor on August 20, 2012 at 5:40 PM

Why the hostility? If you are ok with killing a fertilized egg before implantation (in your terms, abortion) but not with killing a fertilized egg after implantation (in your terms, abortion-abortion) then that is your moral judgement. I can disagree with it and point out the logical inconsistency of that without calling you names. Why can’t you logically say why one is different from the other without referencing religion?

cptacek on August 20, 2012 at 5:01 PM

Heh. YOU began this by being “hostile” to ME. There is no logical inconsistency in differentiating between an egg and an embryo – something I’ve already stated in so many words. I referenced religion because Catholics have a different view and that view affects the treatment of women who end up in Catholic hospital emergency room if they are, you know, raped. Moreover, if I want to reference religion, it’s my prerogative. Don’t like it? Too bad.

Buy Danish on August 20, 2012 at 6:20 PM

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