Does Ryan have a “Catholic problem”?
posted at 6:31 pm on August 19, 2012 by Ed Morrissey
That question has come at me several times in the nine days since Paul Ryan joined the Republican ticket as Mitt Romney’s nominee — and not meant in the same way that JFK had a “Catholic problem” in 1960. People wondering about Ryan’s relationship with Catholic voters usually results from Ryan’s attempts to restructure federal spending, or his supposed devotion to Ayn Rand. The last question is easiest to answer, since I’ve read Rand and admired the ideas in Atlas Shrugged while rejecting completely the philosophies of objectivism and atheism Rand embraced. One hardly needs to be an atheist to appreciate limited government, especially after the HHS contraception mandate being imposed on religious organizations and charities. Reading Atlas Shrugged and appreciating the wisdom of limited government is not an excommunicating act in the Catholic Church, I assure you.
What about Ryan’s budget? It’s no secret that liberals dislike it, although some conservatives might wonder why, considering the moderate approach Ryan took toward deficit and entitlement reform. Our colleague Kate Hicks notices a new group of Catholics who want Ryan to have a change of heart … in the middle of an election:
It’s the ultimate in Catholic double standards: a website called www.PrayForPaulsChangeOfHeart.org launched this week, calling for Catholics to pray that he abandons his Path to Prosperity budget in favor of something more in line with the Church’s social justice teachings. If you click around, you can also find a page with one sentence requesting prayers for Vice President Joe Biden, noted adamant supporter of the pro-choice cause. (It says nothing of Kathleen Sebelius, whose Mass attendance doesn’t exactly jive with her record ofeschewing established Catholic doctrine.)
In condemning Ryan’s budget, the site pulls from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ letter to Ryan, which outlines the criteria the Church feels a Catholic policymaker ought to consider when crafting budgetary policy …
Of course, it’s very easy for a Catholic capitalist to dispute each of these claims – first and foremost, how does it serve the poor if the government continues down its current path to bankruptcy? – and this potential for argument creates a crucial distinction between budgetary policy and life issues. A budget has room for interpretation, and there are different ways to construct the social safety net; abortion, however, is a clear-cut issue, a literal matter of life or death.
So I’m going to be a little blunter about it: the Catholic Church needs to shut up about Paul Ryan’s budget.
Well, I’m not going to go that far, because this group isn’t the Catholic Church. It’s a small group of the laity — in fact, it might be just one person with an amateurish website, one that offers no explanation of whether the owner of the site is even Catholic at all. The act of offering a Rosary prayer for the “Conversion of Representative Paul Ryan” (one of the events listed on the main page) comes close to the sin of judging another person’s standing with God, something that a proper Catholic would recognize as dangerous ground. One can certainly judge the standing of a member within the faith (although that’s best left to pastors and bishops), but “conversion” strongly implies that the petitioner doesn’t consider Ryan a real Catholic. I’m skeptical of this website being anything more significant than someone’s idea of gadflyism.
My good friend Deacon Greg Kandra notes a somewhat more established group in the laity supporting Barack Obama, and their shift in emphasis from 2008 as “pro-life” in support of Obama to an economic message in 2012, presumably in response to Ryan’s selection as Romney’s running mate:
Catholics for Obama has launched its 2012 initiative with a focus on economic issues, in an apparent shift from its 2008 presentation of the presidential candidate as “pro-life.”
“We endorse the President because of his tireless focus on economic security for middle-class families,” the national co-chairs of Catholics for Obama wrote in an Aug. 13 letter, kicking off their effort to target a key voting bloc in the closely contested election.
Proclaiming their commitment “to our faith and our country,” the 21 signers devoted much of their letter to jobs and the economy, along with a variety of foreign policy items which have been seldom-mentioned in the presidential campaign. ….
The letter cited the Catholic teaching “that every human being is made in the image of God,” as a warning against Republican policies that the signers said “would shred our nation’s compassionate safety net” by “gutting” social assistance programs.
Here, though, we have no real change in status. These same accusations against Republicans were also offered as secondary arguments in 2008 by this group, and are made every electoral cycle by liberal Catholics. Ryan’s not going to win their vote simply by sitting in the same pews, but that’s not the same as arguing that Ryan damages Romney’s Catholic draw by being on the ticket.
The key question of whether Ryan’s budget violates his faith gets addressed best by the man who has the authority to speak on Ryan’s standing in the church — his bishop. Bishop Robert C. Morlino addressed this accusation in a column on Thursday to members of the Diocese of Madison, instructing that Catholic social teaching involves both solidarity (with the poor) and subsidiarity — the principle that support for the poor should come from the sources closest to them, the individual members of the church, or the local communities. Where “intrinsic evil” is not involved, the political solutions for the ills of the world should come from the laity, and not the church itself:
In these most fundamental matters, a well-formed Catholic conscience, or the well-formed conscience of a person of good will, simply follows the conclusions demanded by the ecology of human nature and the reasoning process. A Catholic conscience can never take exception to the prohibition of actions which are intrinsically evil. Nor may a conscience well-formed by reason or the Catholic faith ever choose to vote for someone who clearly, consistently, persistently promotes that which is intrinsically evil.
However, a conscience well-formed according to reason or the Catholic faith, must also make choices where intrinsic evil is not involved. How best to care for the poor is probably the finest current example of this, though another would be how best to create jobs at a time when so many are suffering from the ravages of unemployment. In matters such as these, where intrinsic evil is not involved, the rational principles of solidarity and subsidiarity come into play. The principle of solidarity, simply stated, means that every human being on the face of the earth is my brother and my sister, my “neighbor” in the biblical sense. At the same time, the time-tested best way for assisting our neighbors throughout the world should follow the principle of subsidiarity. That means the problem at hand should be addressed at the lowest level possible — that is, the level closest to the people in need. That again, is simply the law of human reason.
That doesn’t mean that Catholics have to like Ryan’s budget; there are plenty of areas of debate that it produces, just as any complex public policy will do. It isn’t a matter of Ryan’s Catholicism, though, and Bishop Morlino is particularly emphatic when it comes to those who claim that in the debate:
It was no shock at all for me to learn that our diocesan native son, Paul Ryan, had been chosen to be a candidate for the Vice Presidency of the United States. I am proud of his accomplishments as a native son, and a brother in the faith, and my prayers go with him and especially with his family as they endure the unbelievable demands of a presidential campaign here in the United States. It is not for the bishop or priests to endorse particular candidates or political parties. Any efforts on the part of any bishop or priest to do so should be set aside. And you can be assured that no priest who promotes a partisan agenda is acting in union with me or with the Universal Church. …
As one looks at issues such as the two mentioned above and seeks to apply the principles of solidarity and subsidiarity, Catholics and others of good will can arrive at different conclusions. These are conclusions about the best means to promote the preferential option for the poor, or the best means to reach a lower percentage of unemployment throughout our country. No one is contesting here anyone’s right to the basic needs of food, clothing, shelter, healthcare, etc. Nor is anyone contesting someone’s right to work and so provide for self and family. However there can be difference according to how best to follow the principles which the Church offers.
Making decisions as to the best political strategies, the best policy means, to achieve a goal, is the mission of lay people, not bishops or priests. As Pope Benedict himself has said, a just society and a just state is the achievement of politics, not the Church. And therefore Catholic laymen and women who are familiar with the principles dictated by human reason and the ecology of human nature, or non-Catholics who are also bound by these same principles, are in a position to arrive at differing conclusions as to what the best means are for the implementation of these principles — that is, “lay mission” for Catholics.
Thus, it is not up to me or any bishop or priest to approve of Congressman Ryan’s specific budget prescription to address the best means we spoke of. Where intrinsic evils are not involved, specific policy choices and political strategies are the province of Catholic lay mission. But, as I’ve said, Vice Presidential Candidate Ryan is aware of Catholic Social Teaching and is very careful to fashion and form his conclusions in accord with the principles mentioned above. Of that I have no doubt. (I mention this matter in obedience to Church Law regarding one’s right to a good reputation.)
So what does constitute the criteria the church uses to decide when to weigh in on policy matters? Morlino is also emphatic on what constitutes intrinsic evil:
However, the formation of conscience regarding particular policy issues is different depending on how fundamental to the ecology of human nature or the Catholic faith a particular issue is. Some of the most fundamental issues for the formation of a Catholic conscience are as follows: sacredness of human life from conception to natural death, marriage, religious freedom and freedom of conscience, and a right to private property.
Violations of the above involve intrinsic evil — that is, an evil which cannot be justified by any circumstances whatsoever. These evils are examples of direct pollution of the ecology of human nature and can be discerned as such by human reason alone. Thus, all people of good will who wish to follow human reason should deplore any and all violations in the above areas, without exception. The violations would be: abortion, euthanasia and physician-assisted suicide, same-sex marriage, government-coerced secularism, and socialism.
The answer to whether Ryan has a “Catholic problem” in terms of gaining or losing Catholic votes for the GOP will only be answered in the exit polls after the election. Without question, though, Ryan does not have a problem with the Catholic Church or its teachings, as Ryan’s own bishop makes plainly clear. While the laity and the ordained may have issues with Ryan’s budget proposals, they don’t rise to the level of intrinsic evil, and so those individuals and groups that engage in the debate over budgetary matters speak for themselves, and not for the church itself. As far as offering Rosaries for conversion, we Catholics should be doing that for the whole world, and in particular for an end to abortion and the other intrinsic evils Bishop Morlino notes in his excellent column.
Addendum: Via ConservativeLA on Twitter, Antony Davies and Kristina Antolin take up the opposite argument — that government programs represent involuntary coercion and therefore cannot be acceptable to Catholics:
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has long supported government interference in the economy as a means to help the poor. But we suspect the bishops haven’t fully thought this through: If God really did favor a top-down approach to poverty reduction, why wouldn’t He establish a government with the power to wipe away poverty on demand instead of leaving things to chance and the possibility that someone like Mr. Ryan would come along and mess up His plans?
Perhaps we dehumanize the poor when we treat them as nothing more than problems to be solved, and we dehumanize the rich when we treat them as wallets to be picked.
Wealth and poverty are catalysts for bringing the rich and the poor together in community, and community is the hallmark of the church’s mission on Earth. Government is not community. Government is one of community’s tools, a coercive one we use when it is necessary to force people to behave in ways they would not otherwise behave voluntarily.
But that word—voluntarily—is key, and it’s where Mr. Ryan’s religious detractors go awry: Charity can only be charity when it is voluntary. Coerced acts, no matter how beneficial or well-intentioned, cannot be moral. If we force people to give to the poor, we have stripped away the moral component, reducing charity to mere income redistribution. And if one really is as good as the other, the Soviets demonstrated long ago that it can be done far more efficiently without the trappings of church and religion.
While I agree with their argument on the policy merits, I think this overshoots the mark, too. Government programs and their funding through taxation are involuntary once passed into law. However, the democratic processes in our republic are intended to establish self-government, which derives from the consent of the governed. In such a system, one cannot declare that they will not abide by laws with which they disagree, unless those laws become tyrannical or (in the Catholic case) impose an “intrinsic evil.” The passage of entitlement programs has been part of that process of self-government, as are the debates on their current funding and need for reform, and which forms reform should take. There is nothing intrinsically immoral or amoral about systems of self-government creating legitimate safety net programs for the truly needy, even if tax dollars go to their funding, although the relative merits of such programs vis-a-vis crowding out private charity, the scope of the programs, and the best level of governance for tending such systems are also legitimate issues for debate among Catholics and non-Catholics alike.
There are many reasons to believe that the policies of the nanny state will deliver more misery than it relieves — Bishop Morlino refers to that in his column — but that is a measure of policy effectiveness, which as Bishop Morlino states does not directly relate to church doctrine. The USCCB acknowledges a wide variety of fair-minded opinion on how best to deliver on Catholic social teachings through public policy, and exhorts only that public policy should be formed with the needs of the poor and infirm in mind to deliver the best possible solutions to their circumstances. Just as liberals should not claim Ryan’s efforts to be outside of Catholic moral thought, we should be careful not to unfairly delegitimize others in the Catholic community who honestly see other solutions for social ills as more effective.
As I wrote before, the Catholic Church goes far beyond political agendas, and encompasses a wide diversity of thought. Attempting to politically pigeonhole people on the basis of faith is usually a recipe for failure. In my opinion, a system on track to put a third of the citizens and residents of the world’s richest nation on federal welfare programs outside of Social Security and Medicare (technically contribution programs) is a nation that is taking too much capital out of systems that would otherwise expand the sources of real prosperity and improved living standards, and is diluting the ability to assist the truly needy of our nation. The need to reform such a system to return capital to those who can expand prosperity and raise living standards while making assistance to the needy more effective and efficient is well within the purpose, motives, and spirit of Catholic social teaching — but I’m not going to be arrogant enough to claim that my perspective is the only one that fits within those parameters.
Update: The reference to the near occasion of sinfulness in the way the website demands the “conversion” of Ryan comes straight from Scripture. When Jesus said, “Judge not, lest ye be judged,” He meant that to arrogate to ourselves the authority to judge the status of another’s soul in relation to God was to infringe on God’s prerogative — and to operate far above one’s pay grade. We can argue whether one’s policies fit within Catholic doctrine, especially when it comes to intrinsic evils such as abortion, but we have no more standing to judge the status of Nancy Pelosi’s soul than Paul Ryan’s. As Jesus taught, we’re better off focusing on the status of our own souls and our relation to God.
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So now he’s pro life?
Rancher on May 14, 2013 at 5:24 PM
To answer your question, Gosnell and his legal team probably don’t share your skepticism.
Stoic Patriot on May 14, 2013 at 5:24 PM
Gosnell was not a one-off.
Curtiss on May 14, 2013 at 5:26 PM
He was smiling and update until just before the verdict was read. He knows the subject wore that pro-life jury down. And he was supposed to get another jury installed to decide punishment. My hunch is reality just bit him in the ass and he didn’t like the way it felt.
DanMan on May 14, 2013 at 5:26 PM
That may be technically correct, but, oh man.
cozmo on May 14, 2013 at 5:27 PM
Liberals are always pro-life when it comes to their own useless arses.
squint on May 14, 2013 at 5:27 PM
So he’s not viable?
happytobehere on May 14, 2013 at 5:28 PM
Finally, Hanover Fist has a worthy cell mate.
BobMbx on May 14, 2013 at 5:28 PM
He knew he was guilty?
Skywise on May 14, 2013 at 5:28 PM
One and done. This is how you Bishop.
John the Libertarian on May 14, 2013 at 5:28 PM
He needed to go away. He’s bad for business. An appeal phase would have meant more revelations. Can’t have that.
Mr. D on May 14, 2013 at 5:29 PM
Happens all the time.
And even if he lost all his appeals, even up through the S.Ct., it’d take, say, 18 years. And then we’d be executing a 90 year old who only had a few months to live anyway.
I’m fine with this. Spend the money, time and resources going after other scumbags.
rbj on May 14, 2013 at 5:31 PM
Oh well. At least it saves the taxpayers some cash.
kim roy on May 14, 2013 at 5:31 PM
Jeebus, AP. A little bit of a warning next time?
Holy F*ck.
nukemhill on May 14, 2013 at 5:32 PM
Swell. Nice that this POS was given the very consideration he deprived so many babies of the past 20 years.
BTW, how many other late-term abortionists are there across the country? When are they going to be arrested and brought up on charges?
Meople on May 14, 2013 at 5:32 PM
No kidding. I’m still having trouble with that headline that Ed put up about a crockpot.
happytobehere on May 14, 2013 at 5:34 PM
Yup. That’s how it works. This is where “privacy” has gotten us: gruesome murders that occur behind closed doors. Now that details of what’s involved are slowly starting to come out more, it’s generating a stir, from discomfort to outrage.
Stoic Patriot on May 14, 2013 at 5:35 PM
I don’t know, they seem a little too detached.
cozmo on May 14, 2013 at 5:35 PM
Irony, indeed.
May the prisoners serve him justice, slowly and painfully.
Schadenfreude on May 14, 2013 at 5:36 PM
There’s one right down the street from you, I’m sure. One of the many myths of the dems is that this stuff is rare.
happytobehere on May 14, 2013 at 5:36 PM
I don’t want to watch the first video, for obvious reasons. And I don’t want to watch the second video for same, but I must watch it because I know the pro-baby killers won’t. No matter how awful the descriptions of barbarism I am about to expose myself to I must continue to remind myself of the facts that pro-baby killers willfully ignore.
NotCoach on May 14, 2013 at 5:37 PM
Irony.
Hypocrite.
portlandon on May 14, 2013 at 5:38 PM
From who? I see no outrage about Gosnell, except from people that already think killing babies is wrong. The most outrage I’ve seen from the baby killers is a lack of cleanliness of the facilities. As if hiring a proper maid service would make everything dandy with abortion.
happytobehere on May 14, 2013 at 5:38 PM
Doesn’t matter. That decrepit old husk hasn’t long to live. The kind of violence he wallowed in has stolen old age from him, and his short imprisonment will sap the rest of his energy. He’ll waste away in hell. My hope is that it doesn’t take long to clear away the remains.
MadisonConservative on May 14, 2013 at 5:39 PM
I’d advise against it. It’s not comfortable to see your fellow citizens as Nazis.
happytobehere on May 14, 2013 at 5:40 PM
Or as Iowahawk put it yesterday…
dont taze me bro on May 14, 2013 at 5:41 PM
“I got an angle…”
BigGator5 on May 14, 2013 at 5:43 PM
That’s not a bad thing to know what you are up against and what’s out there. I’d rather be pleasantly surprised than unprepared and disappointed.
kim roy on May 14, 2013 at 5:46 PM
Gosnell wasn’t the only one who got into trouble in Philly. Everyone else pled out. Perhaps they are getting ahead of the criminal charges by coming clean whether they are disgusted by these activities or not.
NotCoach on May 14, 2013 at 5:47 PM
HA! It only takes being convicted of 3 counts of first-degree murder to turn the most ardent pro-abort into a pro-lifer.
Resist We Much on May 14, 2013 at 5:47 PM
Indeed.
davidk on May 14, 2013 at 5:47 PM
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
Kraken on May 14, 2013 at 5:48 PM
But you know, privacy and stuff.
Bishop on May 14, 2013 at 5:48 PM
Comment of the Thread. Right out of the blocks.
Well done.
davidk on May 14, 2013 at 5:48 PM
I hope not.
davidk on May 14, 2013 at 5:49 PM
I hope not.
But we deserve it.
davidk on May 14, 2013 at 5:50 PM
I don’t know.
The interview just seems a little too practiced, or coached.
I cannot describe what it is that has me thinking there is a problem with the second video. But, I have a problem with the second video.
cozmo on May 14, 2013 at 5:51 PM
I dunno, but it wouldn’t have been carried out and his appeals would have cost the state around $2 million.
Resist We Much on May 14, 2013 at 5:52 PM
Fight the good fight.
davidk on May 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM
I just don’t know … this means the jury can pack up and go home ?
Sure hope so… they’ll likely need therapy after this one !
pambi on May 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM
There are a lot of people who would rather this case end instead of dragging on with endless appeals. What could they offer Gosnell to get him to go along? Protection. They can have him do easy time or hard time. He will be doing easy time.
Anon Y. Mous on May 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM
Wow! I just saw a statement from Day Gardner Pres. National Black Pro Life Union about Gosnell. Just wow! She is a great spokesman with a powerful message.
d1carter on May 14, 2013 at 5:55 PM
That’s Obama’s worst case scenario. Obama wants Baby killing abortionist Gosnell dropped down the memory hole, not some highly publicized dead man walking march to the death row chamber.
Gosnell getting the death needle is an acknowledgement that born alive abortions merit killing the baby killer, and abortion proponents don’t want that precedent set.
Cavalry on May 14, 2013 at 5:55 PM
Pic of the Day: The Last 11 Presidents In Uniform
Resist We Much on May 14, 2013 at 5:59 PM
winner on the first post
cmsinaz on May 14, 2013 at 6:01 PM
Thuja and the armpit will be along just as soon as they finish masturbating to the second video.
slickwillie2001 on May 14, 2013 at 6:02 PM
I couldn’t watch all of the second video. Horrific.
terryannonline on May 14, 2013 at 6:02 PM
He was smiling at today’s hearing. His lawyer said it was the “serenity” of knowing one’s fate.
I think the lawyer knows his clinet is just a sociopath. Who else would keep little feet in jars.
Wethal on May 14, 2013 at 6:05 PM
Best. comment. ever.
If “brevity is the soul of wit” sir/madam, you deserve a picture in the dictionary next to the definition of “wit,” I am suitably humbled, thank you.
Regardless if he’d received the death sentence or life w/o parole he would have still died in the custody of Pennsylvania’s Dept. of corrections.
If he’d received the death penalty he’d still be in the appeals process the last day of his life. There’s at least one person on Pennsylvania’s death row who still has outstanding appeals for a murder he committed in the 80′s!!
Unlike my home state where you can see the line of those on death row move, Pennsylvania would have warehoused him and allowed his appeals to continue for the rest of his life.
Now, he’ll end his days like Zacarias Moussaoui who yearned for the death penalty so he could grandstand in the appeals process for decades, now forgotten and deprived of a soap box.
Any bets on who’ll start the “Free Gosnell” movement?
Rot until your space opens up in Hell, Gosnell
E9RET on May 14, 2013 at 6:06 PM
So was I sir, so was I. ;-)
E9RET on May 14, 2013 at 6:07 PM
Evening news also said that Gosnell want to tell his “story” to the public at some time. One wonders how many in the MSM would want to do an apologetic for Gosnell.
Wethal on May 14, 2013 at 6:07 PM
hmm, another Troll free thread. I guess they don’t want to go on record defending their right to an abortion no matter what.
kirkill on May 14, 2013 at 6:09 PM
There was a story earlier about Gosnell objecting to the sheriff’s deputies calling him “Kermit.”
He said they should address him as “Dr. Gosnell.”
The sheriffs told him to stuff it because he was just another guy in shackles to them.
Wethal on May 14, 2013 at 6:10 PM
“Fetus” is an age?
LASue on May 14, 2013 at 6:12 PM
They should make sure his prison shoes have an extra-strong pair of shoelaces.
slickwillie2001 on May 14, 2013 at 6:14 PM
Just because we “time” our age by the time we are born, it is a human from the time of conception. Science should have taught you that…hmm, LA public education?
kirkill on May 14, 2013 at 6:14 PM
Bad RWM, bad
cozmo on May 14, 2013 at 6:18 PM
Gosnell probably figures that since the abortion crowd didn’t come to his assistance during the trial, he has no reason to believe he’ll be a ’cause celebre’ …. and I doubt the judge would let him out while his case is on appeal.
GarandFan on May 14, 2013 at 6:19 PM
How about seconds old since we establish age as stating at zero when born.
NotCoach on May 14, 2013 at 6:29 PM
Gosmell is just afraid to die. He knows what it is to kill and doesn’t want to suffer what he inflicted on others.
I hope they get to him in the big house but I guess that will be difficult.
Sicko!
Sherman1864 on May 14, 2013 at 6:30 PM
He won’t serve but 4 years and get pardoned by Obama when he grants 50,000 other pardons before he leaves office.
DanaSmiles on May 14, 2013 at 6:33 PM
Obama can’t pardon him. Gosnell outside of federal jurisdiction.
NotCoach on May 14, 2013 at 6:35 PM
And more evil is unearthed…
I really wish you would revisit your lack of faith, Allahpundit. And all the atheists, particularly those like Resist We Much, who I respect very much, and a few others who are not obnoxious anti-Christians. But even the obnoxious ones…
I’m quite convinced we are going to be seeing the Truth come down on this country, in fact the whole world, in a big way pretty soon and I really hope you recognize it for what it is, before it is too late. God will not let this affront to Him and His innocent creation stand much longer. I am certain we are seeing the Chastisement building before our very eyes, though it has been doing so for quite a few years. But the speed seems to be increasing at a frightening pace as seen in every headline on Drudge.
Catholic Prophecy
Look into Fatima. Pope Francis had his papacy consecrated to Our Lady of Fatima just yesterday for a reason. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI made St. Hildegard a Doctor of the Church for a reason, as well as beatifying Sr. Elena Aiello. They are telling us something.
Just read Romans 1. It is all right in that one page of Sacred Scripture. Everything in there is us, and “those who do such things are worthy of death, and not only they that do them, but they who consent to them that do them.” We will pay for allowing this horror. Not only have we allowed it to continue, we’ve been funding it!
I don’t know how well you pay attention to comments, but I’ve posted this a number of times, but in case you haven’t had opportunity to see/ignore before, please read the comparative study of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo and then compare to the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, keeping in mind how old these relics are and that blood typing didn’t come into existence until less than 100 years ago. Christ was real; He died for you; and shed His precious type AB blood for you. He rose from the dead and will come again to judge… And God the Father is about to show us His wrath which comes first. Whether this is the final or minor chastisement, He is going to remove His protection in a big way. How could He not with this sort of horror so widespread?
Please believe in Him.
God have mercy.
pannw on May 14, 2013 at 6:40 PM
How about an unmentioned under the table agreement to NOT prosecute his wife?
Freddy on May 14, 2013 at 6:48 PM
didn’t watch the vid but i read the story on lifesitenews. holy s***!!! this guy really is just as bad as gosnell!! i am so glad these brave people are speaking out.
but what helps is that these are not anonymous sources. that looks better for credibility. i hope this story gets more exposure, like gosnell’s did. if americans see a second horror story after gosnell, maybe some of them will wake up and realize that gosnell isn’t a rare case.
Sachiko on May 14, 2013 at 6:57 PM
UM, did sumpin happen to this thread ?
pambi on May 14, 2013 at 7:01 PM
look at this!!!
on lifesitenews, one of the women who is in that video exposing the truth about gosnell #2, deborah edge, posted a comment!!
Sachiko on May 14, 2013 at 7:13 PM
I don’t really understands what she is trying to say. Is she still pro-abort? Has she repented, turned away from that awful life?
God will forgive, but for now:
She killed unborn, and born, babies.
May God have mercy on her soul.
davidk on May 14, 2013 at 7:23 PM
I was figuring it was pro-choice: life or death.
socalcon on May 14, 2013 at 7:30 PM
More words. Did sumpin happin to this thread, in what way? I wish to understand and cannot — and without understanding you, I can’t digest my macaroni salad properly.
Axe on May 14, 2013 at 7:31 PM
“especially vulnerable given their age”
Um, was that from Meghan McCain– who thought of things during her gestation?
socalcon on May 14, 2013 at 7:33 PM
Would love to help, but I am stymied trying to determine if I am an obnoxious athiest, anti-catholic or anti-christian.
Like 31 flavors: so many choices.
socalcon on May 14, 2013 at 7:35 PM
that is how I look at it …. if given the DP .. 15 years of appeal on the taxpayers dime …. Life w/o parole … even if he was allowed to appeal .. it is on his dime
life in prison … at least someone has a job .. making sure he stays inside.
I am good with it
conservative tarheel on May 14, 2013 at 7:36 PM
From what I understand, people like him won’t have a very nice time in prison.
Either in solitary and going crazy or in general population and dealing with convicts who have a special code regarding those that murder children.
It is nice to know that his remaining years will not be pleasant ones.
AND +2 on:
One of the best comments ever. I’m stealing it for Twitter ;)
ProfShadow on May 14, 2013 at 7:39 PM
he will spend a lot of time in Segregated Housing ….
no inmate contact
conservative tarheel on May 14, 2013 at 7:41 PM
You . . . only have one category there, if “obnoxious” implies the “anti” part . . . the remaining anti’s would be part and parcel. You needed another option: (unqualified, implying in context non-obnoxious) atheist. Then we could have looked close at the other two.
So, are you obnoxious, or what?
THIS THREAD IS MULTIPLYING QUESTIONS
Axe on May 14, 2013 at 7:44 PM
Please consider retweeting Sophie:
https://twitter.com/SophieRo3/status/334414795837149184
Axe on May 14, 2013 at 7:47 PM
How can anyone do this? I swear liberals have no regard for human life. I noticed several times these women would slip and call it a baby then correct themselves and say fetus. I pray every day for the end of abortion. I pray that those engaging in the abortion trade and those women having abortions beg for Gods forgiveness and stop. As to those involved in late term abortions I pray for their swift apprehension and the death penalty. May God have mercy on their souls but more importantly may God comfort those precious souls killed without ever having the chance to live.
neyney on May 14, 2013 at 8:46 PM
Well, well, well – look who just made the TOP of the Presidential Pardon list.
famous amos on May 14, 2013 at 9:23 PM
Just stencil “BABYKILLER” on his orange jumpsuit and let the inmates take care of him.
Doing the job that the system won’t do.
Manchuria begs to differ.
viking01 on May 14, 2013 at 9:51 PM
Detached is the only way you don’t go crazy at what you’ve seen and done in this case. They’re all conditioned to keep referring to ‘the fetus’. It’s a defense mechanism for these women as much as a way of hiding the truth (that it’s a baby) from the public. The one on the right kept slipping up though and calling it ‘the baby’.
I can understand why the talky one in the middle keeps seeing in her mind’s eye what she described about the baby’s toes spreading when it was killed. I’m not a weepy sort but that made me cry.
The Thin Man Returns on May 14, 2013 at 11:23 PM
It’s really very ironic that he gets life. The very thing he denied his patients.
Chris of Rights on May 15, 2013 at 9:11 AM
I think they should just snip his spine with a scissor.
BrunoMitchell on May 15, 2013 at 1:01 PM
This is, to quote Sheriff Joe Biden, a big f’ing deal. Normally I’d be p!ssed they took DP off the table, but now he’ll get DP’ed in a cell for the remainder of his days.
Hell, it wouldn’t even be capital punishment – we’ll call it a late, late, late, late-term post birth abortion. Whatever spin makes ya feel better.
I half-suspected he’d be set free into the open field, but the jury actually used a brain and convicted him on all the relevant charges. In Philly of all places. And there were many charges. The testimony and grand jury report was heinous.
This is SO very bad for the abortion industry, so, true to form, they are whining that this was caused by too much regulation. LOL. Actually, the feminists have it made – abortion is one health area that is woefully under-regulated, due to each regulation being legally challenged as “an undue burden” on a woman’s right to choose. Gov. Tom “Color-Code” Ridge of PA stated as much. And here’s the unintended consequence – instead of dying in back alleys, they die in unsanitary, unsupervised “protected, legal clinics”.
Planned (un)Parenthood also didn’t mention he went down for convictions on the deaths of three BABIES (they focused on the women, only), who had their spines snipped like a flower stem once out of the woman’s body, whereas it would have been legal while still in her body. No wonder Gosnell looked perplexed when he was convicted – he did that crap everyday with the feminists’, and the law’s, blessing. NOW they have a problem with it?
People only support abortion to the extent they do because they honestly don’t know what it involves, and what the law is around it. Sometimes in true medical necessity cases, and perhaps in rape cases, it could be considered justifiable homicide. But that means ya have to consider it a child and you have to justify that action (woman’s life v. baby’s life, etc.) – current law doesn’t, it classifies it as less than nothing, and let’s a woman do it for any reason up to viability. And at viability they still can, with some restriction. If people were informed, say, like, by a group that fills us in on news-worthy items, a “media” or “school”, their opinions would do a 180 real quick. Mine did when I really learned what it is and how it’s practiced/legally justified. And bear in mind, I’m no Bible-Thumper. And that’s why this story got ignored for most of it’s duration – “they” can’t have people informed, because people may then make decisions “they” don’t like.
Saltyron on May 15, 2013 at 2:59 PM