Video: Erskine Bowles says Ryan budget “sensible … honest, serious”

posted at 8:41 am on August 13, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Why is this important?  Erskine Bowles has a long pedigree as a Democratic budget thinker — and presidential adviser.  When Barack Obama needed to pick the co-chair for his deficit committee, which he roundly ignored in the end, he chose Bowles to represent his side on the panel.  Bowles served as Bill Clinton’s chief of staff, and earlier ran the Small Business Administration for Clinton.  Ezra Klein predicted on Friday that Bowles would be the front-runner for Tim Geithner’s job at Treasury if Obama wins a second term.

Bear in mind this while you watch this clip, found by our good friend Morgen Richmond over the weekend — the Ryan budget came as an answer of sorts to the budget recommendations from the deficit committee, on which Ryan served with Bowles.  Even though this is a competing plan, Bowles in September 2011 was impressed with it and with Ryan enough to call it “sensible,” “honest,” and “serious” — although Bowles still didn’t accept it as a substitute for the panel’s:

Remember this when you start to hear the Obama campaign rip the Ryan budget as an unserious attempt to kill Medicare and allow rich people to feast on the bones of the poor.  Bowles has his own issues with Ryan’s plan (which at one point in the video below he calls “radical”), but Bowles acknowledges this as a good-faith effort to fix the structural crisis in American finances.  That’s more respect than Bowles gave Obama’s budget, which he noted got voted down in the Senate 97-0, and for good reason.  Bowles even tweaks Obama for dishonestly attempting to evade a true comparison and for back-loading cuts in order to claim $4 trillion in reductions over 12 years.

One should not come away with the impression that Bowles supports the Ryan budget.  However, it’s clear that Bowles has a great deal more respect for Ryan’s efforts than he does for Barack Obama’s.

Update: Here’s the transcript of the shorter clip, courtesy of Resist We Much in the comments:

“Have any of you met Paul Ryan? We should get him to come to the university. I’m telling you this guy is amazing, uh. I always thought that I was OK with arithmetic, but this guy can run circles around me. And, he is honest. He is straightforward. He is sincere.

And, the budget that he came forward with is just like Paul Ryan. It is a sensible, straightforward, serious budget and it cut the budget deficit by $4 trillion…just like we did.

The President came out with his own plan and the President came out, as you will remember, with a budget and I don’t think anyone took that budget very seriously. Um, the Senate voted against it 97 to nothing. He, therefore, after a lot of pressure from folks like me, he came out with a new budget framework and, in the new budget framework, he cut the budget deficit by $4 trillion over 12 years. And, to be candid, this $4 trillion cut was very heavily back-end loaded. So, if you looked at it on a 10 year basis and compared apples-to-apples, it was about a $2.5 trillion cut.”


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I hear you, but what’s the alternative to voting for Romney/Ryan? Help me understand.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:43 AM

If we do not pay the debt we built, who does? It is time to pay the piper and stop putting off til next generation what needs to happen this generation. What to do about it? Well, its too late to do anything that would have been easier. Like 2008, they put off the day of reckoning until there were no good options. I for one say let the Democrats own the end and pick up the peices with a Conservative Philosophy that still has some level of credibility after.

astonerii on August 13, 2012 at 9:47 AM

Dante.. idealism is great but there is a thing called reality.

My 70s mind says, peace, love etc etc..but reality says differently so I live in reality. I grew up a long time ago.

Reality is we have a choice.. either deal with Obama and all his ugly policies OR we can have Romney/Ryan and move the pieces in the right direction..

Reality tells me Romney/Ryan..becasue the alternative is.. Obama

theblacksheepwasright on August 13, 2012 at 9:47 AM

We’ll spare those of you who cannot fight your way back up to self-sufficency the pain…..??

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 9:44 AM

F*** Off! I have more money than you and I’m WAY more set to handle retirement than you are – I’m sure.

But thanks for answering the question – you’re willing to pony up your own benefits while the GOP continues to fund other worthless entitlements and liberal organizations they are too cowardly to defund.

We have your answer …

But I’m wondering if the rest of the Conservative world out there is as willing as you are to sacrifice theirs while the liberals and the unions keep theirs.

I don’t think so.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:48 AM

So everyone here is perfectly fine with means testing medicare?

Cuz that’s what Ryan wants to do – among other things.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:29 AM

We have a math problem that needs to be addressed. We can not afford to put off any longer substantive discussion of entitlement programs. We need to talk about how to lower the deficit. We need to repeal Obamacare because it too is unaffordable. These are the facts that your side does not recognize as you stomp your feet and have a hissy fit that your guy didn’t win.

And yes, I’m perfectly fine with means testing medicare. I think we need to have a serious discussion over the level of defense spending and what our priorities are. I think we need to come up with an alternative to traditional SS for Americans under a certain age. In short, we need serious people working on behalf of Americans (not the UAW, SEIU, or campaign bundlers). No matter how much you hate Romney/Ryan as not being ideologically pure enough for your sensitivities, Obama is not fit to hold the Presidency for another four years nor can we afford his second term.

It really is that simple. Those of your ilk can come along for the ride or continue to appear to be spoiled little children.

Happy Nomad on August 13, 2012 at 9:49 AM

Reality is we have a choice.. either deal with Obama and all his ugly policies OR we can have Romney/Ryan and move the pieces in the right direction..

theblacksheepwasright on August 13, 2012 at 9:47 AM

Romney/Ryan is not a move in the right direction. THAT is reality, and I have half-a-century plus of evidence.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:50 AM

You tell me how voting for Romney/Ryan is going to stop the growth of Leviathan. You tell me how voting for Romney/Ryan is going to resotre our infringed rights and return us to limited government. You tell me how voting for Romney/Ryan is going to prevent something like Obamacare or Kelo or Sitz. You tell me how voting Republican is going to change ANYTHING, when I have nothing but history to throw in your face and prove otherwise.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:15 AM

Because talking to a rock is a waste of time and energy? Because nothing said here will cause the rock to suddenly have understanding or knowledge. Yet, “historically” and “physically” the rock will eventually become a pebble. Dante shows no faith in this nation’s resolve to become fiscally responsible under a Romney/Ryan leadership, and offers only rhetorical histrionics and zero solutions. And this is your “status quo” we should accept Dante? Is this all you have to offer to the debate—”YOU TELL ME”???

Wow. Here’s one who wishes to be “commanded,” who publically announces that he is unable and unwilling to think for himself. Your overlords have spoken; they have given their orders, and you must follow them. Pathetic. Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:16 AM

Not exactly. Here’s one (myself, that is) who recognizes the political reality we face, despite my own personal disagreement with the candidates. We can unite behind Romney/Ryan, or we can stand in the corner with a poopy face, yelling that Mommy got me a red lollipop instead of a green one, to the eternal embarrassment of all around us, and to the joy of Barack Obama, who will see our split vote and raise us another four years.
RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:39 AM

This is exactly what Dante and HondaV would love to see—a split vote or conservatives staying home to facilitate another four years Obama’s tragic fiscal policies. Like I said, you’re talking to rocks.

Rovin on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

If we do not pay the debt we built, who does? It is time to pay the piper and stop putting off til next generation what needs to happen this generation. What to do about it? Well, its too late to do anything that would have been easier. Like 2008, they put off the day of reckoning until there were no good options. I for one say let the Democrats own the end and pick up the peices with a Conservative Philosophy that still has some level of credibility after.

astonerii on August 13, 2012 at 9:47 AM

I see. Your “serious” proposal is to just quit and watch it all fall to pieces. Apparently, if it’s not (your words) “easier” it’s OK to just quit.

Fine, you do that. Me? I’ll keep working to fix it if I can, and if it all falls apart at least I’ll have my integrity intact, and then I’ll work alongside you to build it again.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:43 AM

The election isn’t about electing a POTUS.

It’s about electing a guy to pilot the plane to the scene of the crash. Guy who’s in the cockpit (and his ideology) will get the blame when the crash occurs.

It’ll happen with Willard or Obambi – both will crash it.

But Willard will discredit conservatism for a generation.

We barely escaped 2008 … the nation may give us another chance to rule – but if the plane goes down on our watch then James Carville’s predictions come true.

Vote Obama – then go home and stock canned goods.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

Your alternative is to walk the walk instead of just talking the talk. Your alternative is to not vote for Big Government, whether it’s Obama/Biden or Romney/Ryan. Look at the other candidates. Inform yourself. Who would use the veto pen? Who would uphold the Constitution?

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:45 AM

Well? Who? What will you do when you write in yourself for President and you don’t get elected?

That’s what you might as well do. Vote for yourself! You and Honda and standup and all of you righteous know-it-alls that can only complain and never do anything contructive.

Build your own web site and build it by tomorrow and see how many flock to your whiney message. Nobody likes a whiney, crybaby who never offers a reasonable alternative to what they’re whining about. Quit bothering the grown ups and go play with yourself.

Vince on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

I see. Your “serious” proposal is to just quit and watch it all fall to pieces. Apparently, if it’s not (your words) “easier” it’s OK to just quit.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

It’s the same you’re advocating – except you’re advocating that conservatives get the blame when the crash happens.

Tell me with a straight face that you think Willard McDole, Mitch McConnell and Crybaby Boehner can save this nation.

Please – I need a laugh today!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:53 AM

Romney/Ryan is not a move in the right direction. THAT is reality, and I have half-a-century plus of evidence.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:50 AM

Some people never do grow out of stupidity.

Happy Nomad on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

This is exactly what Dante and HondaV would love to see—a split vote or conservatives staying home to facilitate another four years Obama’s tragic fiscal policies. Like I said, you’re talking to rocks.

Rovin on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

Dang. You got me. You found me out. I really want more Obama. Sherlock Holmes has nothing on you, sir.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

all of you righteous know-it-alls that can only complain and never do anything contructive.

Vince on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

Coming from a self-righteous mittbott – I find that hilarious!

And uhm, Vince – thanks for the advice but you can kiss our asses we’ll do this the way we want to do it … mkay?

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

The election isn’t about electing a POTUS.

It’s about electing a guy to pilot the plane to the scene of the crash. Guy who’s in the cockpit (and his ideology) will get the blame when the crash occurs.

It’ll happen with Willard or Obambi – both will crash it.

But Willard will discredit conservatism for a generation.

We barely escaped 2008 … the nation may give us another chance to rule – but if the plane goes down on our watch then James Carville’s predictions come true.

Vote Obama – then go home and stock canned goods.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

My thoughts exactly. It’s all falling apart, so let’s quit. Here’s hoping to high heaven your marriage/kids/job never experience any challenges.

As I pointed earlier, your own words condemn you. According to you, we’re past the point of easy solutions, so your answer is to hang it up and watch it collapse. And you say that’s gonna give the nation cause to “give us another chance to rule?” I wouldn’t vote for you, and I’m a conservative!

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

But I’m wondering if the rest of the Conservative world out there is as willing as you are to sacrifice theirs while the liberals and the unions keep theirs.

I don’t think so.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:48 AM

Yes I know you may have more money than me superman, I also know you want guvmint cheese anyway evidently if you are emoing out so hard.

We CANNOT AFFORD IT.

MATH!

The only thing that has ever shut Obama up is Paul Ryan showing him MATH!

I will sacrifice my stolen wages to let my descendants be free, and if that is not conservative I don’t know what is.

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Some people never do grow out of stupidity.

Happy Nomad on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

Which is why I harbor no hope for you.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:55 AM

This is exactly what Dante and HondaV would love to see—a split vote or conservatives staying home to facilitate another four years Obama’s tragic fiscal policies. Like I said, you’re talking to rocks.

Rovin on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

No – I don’t want to see that … I want Conservatives to vote directly for Obama so the anti-Willard vote isn’t diluted.

Willard could win this thing – even with a third party. Maybe even with Conservatives sitting home.

In order to send a message to the GOP Ayatollahs – gotta vote Obama.

And personally – I can’t wait!

It’ll feel just like smearing a rubarb pie into the face of John Cornyn!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:56 AM

Tell me with a straight face that you think Willard McDole, Mitch McConnell and Crybaby Boehner can save this nation.

Please – I need a laugh today!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:53 AM

Obama, Pelosi, and Reid are the solution? Now you are just being moronic. Seriously, if you want to have a hissy fit, go ahead. Just don’t expect anybody to take you seriously when you profess to be a conservative but think that Obama is a better choice than Romney/Ryan.

Happy Nomad on August 13, 2012 at 9:56 AM

It’s the same you’re advocating – except you’re advocating that conservatives get the blame when the crash happens.

Tell me with a straight face that you think Willard McDole, Mitch McConnell and Crybaby Boehner can save this nation.

Please – I need a laugh today!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:53 AM

Yes, I do, and go ahead and laugh. I see them (and myself) TRYING, which is a lot more than I can say about you. You’re the airplane pilot who sees the crash coming and instead of trying to right the plane, leaves the cockpit to go stand in the tail just in case you might survive the crash.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:57 AM

The election is a choice between a ticket that will confront and try fo fix these fiscal problems and one that will do nothing but run out the clock until fiscal and societal collapse. Those of you who even want to argue at all about the specifics of what Romney/Ryan will do to fix things are out in left field.

Resolute on August 13, 2012 at 9:58 AM

Yes, I do, and go ahead and laugh. I see them (and myself) TRYING, which is a lot more than I can say about you. You’re the airplane pilot who sees the crash coming and instead of trying to right the plane, leaves the cockpit to go stand in the tail just in case you might survive the crash.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:57 AM

I don’t see you trying at all. Voting for the exact same policies is not trying. Voting for big government is not trying. You seem resigned to having people make choices for you instead of thinking for yourself and informing yourself.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:58 AM

It’s the same you’re advocating – except you’re advocating that conservatives get the blame when the crash happens.

Tell me with a straight face that you think Willard McDole, Mitch McConnell and Crybaby Boehner can save this nation.

Please – I need a laugh today!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:53 AM

Yes, I do, and go ahead and laugh. I see them (and myself) TRYING, which is a lot more than I can say about you. You’re the airplane pilot who sees the crash coming and instead of trying to right the plane, leaves the cockpit to go stand in the tail just in case you might survive the crash.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:57 AM

Know what? I take that back. You’re gonna vote for Obama, which means you’re worse than a do-nothing pilot. You’re intentionally steering the plane into the ground, no matter that people might get hurt.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Which is why I harbor no hope for you.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Thanks, I can take care of myself. In the meantime a 50+ year old throwing a temper tantrum is really ugly. You only are embarrassing yourself. And, of course, your “ideas” will be dismissed as the nonsense it is. There are serious issues to be discussed and all you want to do is pout.

Happy Nomad on August 13, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Yes, I do, and go ahead and laugh. I see them (and myself) TRYING, which is a lot more than I can say about you. You’re the airplane pilot who sees the crash coming and instead of trying to right the plane, leaves the cockpit to go stand in the tail just in case you might survive the crash.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:57 AM

We’ll win or not….

better to lose having tried the solution matrix most palatable and survivable for all concerned than some lord of the flies ensemble cast production….

I have seen the Lord of the Flies running the nation….

the director is “Barack Obama”

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM

We CANNOT AFFORD IT.

MATH!

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 9:55 AM

Couple things … you can say that until the cows come home but Americans ain’t gonna buy it. You ain’t cuttin’ sh** from me (even though I don’t need it) – until you hit the liberal orgs like Planned Parenthood – and that’s the way most Americans are.

Second thing – I don’t really have to worry about it – because the GOP under establishment control won’t cut ANY OF THIS. They don’t have the balls because they know it will cost them votes.

So take your math book back to math class – it has no function in political science. :D

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM

I don’t see you trying at all. Voting for the exact same policies is not trying. Voting for big government is not trying. You seem resigned to having people make choices for you instead of thinking for yourself and informing yourself.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:58 AM

I would call that TRYING. It may not succeed, but it sure beats giving up. If it’s all that bleak, what are you even bothering posting for? Slap a Paul bumper sticker on your backside and take your cannned goods and survival knife into the forest and wait it out, and let the adults talk now.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:01 AM

Know what? I take that back. You’re gonna vote for Obama, which means you’re worse than a do-nothing pilot. You’re intentionally steering the plane into the ground, no matter that people might get hurt.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:59 AM

It would really get me hard this morning if you also called us Un-American!

Please … do it!!

Because – that’s how you Conservative Slaves are. You have no game – and your arguments are lost.

You keep voting for the same people who keep lying to you about cutting government.

But go ahead – tell us about how “this time” will be different!

LMFAO!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:02 AM

So take your math book back to math class – it has no function in political science. :D

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM

If you think the libs are not afriad of Mitt using SoCon skillz you are not thinking it through….

they went full ‘tard on their rhetoric out of the gate….

they know the gig is up and they pi**ed off the GOP with their “I won eleventy!!!!” antics.

but you go on ahead and let Jugears with the Magic Pen of EO Hypocrisy win to “show me”…

I’ll be wherever a strong back is going to get paid.

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 10:03 AM

History is replete with those who sought purity of thought and each either failed or became sociopathic.

theblacksheepwasright on August 13, 2012 at 10:03 AM

We’ll win or not….

better to lose having tried the solution matrix most palatable and survivable for all concerned than some lord of the flies ensemble cast production….

I have seen the Lord of the Flies running the nation….

the director is “Barack Obama”

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 10:00 AM

So you’re with Honda, then? Quit trying & let Obama run it into the ground, then pick up the pieces after? You do realize that the failed conservative state will be replaced by a totalitarian state and there won’t be anything you can do about it?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:03 AM

I would call that TRYING. It may not succeed, but it sure beats giving up.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:01 AM

So you’re voting for HOPE this time around?

HOPE that Mittens won’t crash the plane?

LMFAO!

You guys are the HOPE AND CHANGE voters. Because – it can only be hope – there’s no science here since you’re voting for the same tired guys who’ve lied to you for 50 years about cutting government!

HOPE!!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:04 AM

I would call that TRYING.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:01 AM

We obviously have polar opposite views of what it means to try.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:04 AM

Coming from a self-righteous mittbott – I find that hilarious!

And uhm, Vince – thanks for the advice but you can kiss our asses we’ll do this the way we want to do it … mkay?

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

Mittbot? Where did you pull that from? I was a Gingrich supporter. You are a Honda supporter.

I had a friend just like you. He was best man at my wedding but I had to disassociate myself from him eventually because he knew everything about every topic but his alternatives were whining, depressing rants. He passed away a lonley, depressed alchoholic. No one could stand being around him.

Your attitude and insulting disposition is the same as his.

Vince on August 13, 2012 at 10:04 AM

It would really get me hard this morning if you also called us Un-American!

Please … do it!!

Because – that’s how you Conservative Slaves are. You have no game – and your arguments are lost.

You keep voting for the same people who keep lying to you about cutting government.

But go ahead – tell us about how “this time” will be different!

LMFAO!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:02 AM

I didn’t call you un-American. I called you a coward and an idiot. But I will concede — you said my arguments have lost, so that must be the case. Heaven forbid you actually show up with an argument.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:06 AM

So you’re with Honda, then? Quit trying & let Obama run it into the ground, then pick up the pieces after? You do realize that the failed conservative state will be replaced by a totalitarian state and there won’t be anything you can do about it?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:03 AM

The part you don’t get – is that when Obama runs it into the ground he doesn’t get to pick up the pieces and neither does his party.

Was McRage allowed to pick up the pieces after the GOP destroyed the economy in 2007? Nope. Republicans were discredited and thrown the f*** out.

And that’s what’ll happen if you elect Obama – only it will be the Dims turn.

And if you elect Mittens – then … see 2008 for your fate – but the next time the GOP gets thrown out – it’ll be for good.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:06 AM

Vince on August 13, 2012 at 10:04 AM

Correct, there are no Mittbots. Honda, on the other hand, is a clown.

22044 on August 13, 2012 at 10:07 AM

I didn’t call you un-American. I called you a coward and an idiot. But I will concede — you said my arguments have lost, so that must be the case. Heaven forbid you actually show up with an argument.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:06 AM

So I’m a coward because I can’t pull the lever for Mittens?

Wait – what about my two combat tours in Afghan and Iraq – do they count for anything?

Guess not :(

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:08 AM

I would call that TRYING.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:01 AM

We obviously have polar opposite views of what it means to try.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:04 AM

Correct. You prefer to tilt at windmills. You should read Don Quixote some time. It’s the perfect portrait of the political perfectionist.

Is Romney/Ryan perfect? Are they my first choice? Heavens no! But Ryan is the first person to put forward an even semi-serious plan on the economy, and I’ll take incremental steps forward over moving backward.

(Yes, others have had great plans as well, but they’re not running for President)

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:09 AM

Correct, there are no Mittbots. Honda, on the other hand, is a clown.

22044 on August 13, 2012 at 10:07 AM

On this board – you’re either a clown or a Mittbott.

And actually – the mittbotts are funnier than clowns!! LMFAO!!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:09 AM

Is Romney/Ryan perfect? Are they my first choice? Heavens no! But Ryan is the first person to put forward an even semi-serious plan on the economy, and I’ll take incremental steps forward over moving backward.

(Yes, others have had great plans as well, but they’re not running for President)

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:09 AM

You don’t have time for incremental steps. That’s the thing.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:10 AM

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:09 AM

Thank you for proving my point. Actually, at least clowns are funny. You’re not even that.

22044 on August 13, 2012 at 10:11 AM

Wait – what about my two combat tours in Afghan and Iraq – do they count for anything?

Guess not :(

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:08 AM

Oh for cryin’ out loud….. This guy just begs for attention, doesn’t he.

We didn’t ask and you don’t have to tell.

Vince on August 13, 2012 at 10:12 AM

So I’m a coward because I can’t pull the lever for Mittens?

Wait – what about my two combat tours in Afghan and Iraq – do they count for anything?

Guess not :(

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:08 AM

Thank you for your service, but don’t sully that honor by leveraging it’s emotional weight to prop up your faulty argument.

You are not a coward because you can’t won’t pull the lever for Mitt. You’re a coward because you (by your own admission) have quit trying. To use your soldiering reference, you’re the soldier hiding in the foxhole (voting for Obama), waiting for the fight to end (the nation to collapse) so that you can tend to the wounded and hopefully make it out alive.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:13 AM

You don’t have time for incremental steps. That’s the thing.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Having yet to receive an answer, I’ll ask again. If Mitt doesn’t work, WHO is my alternative? If I don’t have time for incremental steps, then who has the “one step plan” that will fix the problem?

I know it’s hard with all that Paul nonsense floating around in your head, but focus like a laser beam. If I shouldn’t vote for Romney/Ryan, then WHO should I vote for?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:15 AM

Erskine Bowles says Ryan budget “sensible … honest, serious”

Unfortunately Romney killed the Ryan Budget when he picked Ryan

faraway on August 13, 2012 at 10:15 AM

OT:
DEBATE MODERATORS ANNOUNCED ….

PBS Jim Lehrer, first Pres debate, Oct 3 Denver…
CNN Candy Crowley, town hall, Oct 16, Hempstead NY…
CBS Bob Schieffer, third Pres debate, Oct. 22, Boca Raton…
ABC Martha Raddatz, VP debate, Oct 11, Danville KY…
FLASHBACK: CROWLEY: Some Think Ryan Pick ‘Some Sort of Ticket Death Wish’…

pambi on August 13, 2012 at 10:17 AM

I see. Your “serious” proposal is to just quit and watch it all fall to pieces. Apparently, if it’s not (your words) “easier” it’s OK to just quit.

Fine, you do that. Me? I’ll keep working to fix it if I can, and if it all falls apart at least I’ll have my integrity intact, and then I’ll work alongside you to build it again.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

You capitulate and allow the Republican Party to become the Democrat party and then state that I am a quitter because I will be there to pick the peices up when it all fall to peices because of pathetic voters like yourself having allowed the country to get to the point that it is self destructing?

What are you going to fix with Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan? Nothing at all. You just want to put off the day longer so that other people’s children can be the victims of the collapse! COWARD, man up and face your failures and make them right. Pay your damned DEBTS with your work not other people’s children’s/

astonerii on August 13, 2012 at 10:18 AM

For the life of me, I don’t understand why not allowing the budget to increase automatically is viewed as a spending cut. If we don’t have planes falling out of the sky now, we won’t in a few years. Liberal garbage talk. I trust Ryan will be able to explain this to the simple minded folks in the MSM and the Dem. party.

COgirl on August 13, 2012 at 10:24 AM

You capitulate and allow the Republican Party to become the Democrat party and then state that I am a quitter because I will be there to pick the peices up when it all fall to peices because of pathetic voters like yourself having allowed the country to get to the point that it is self destructing?

What are you going to fix with Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan? Nothing at all. You just want to put off the day longer so that other people’s children can be the victims of the collapse! COWARD, man up and face your failures and make them right. Pay your damned DEBTS with your work not other people’s children’s/

astonerii on August 13, 2012 at 10:18 AM

I am ONE voter. I voted for the best candidate in the primary (not Romney) and am now faced with a choice. How DARE you hide behind your service and call me a coward, when I am at least TRYING to solve the problem by casting the best vote possible.

Ryan is the first senator in a long time to put a reasonable package together that at least moves us in the right direction. Romney has the economic chops to serve. Are they perfect? No. But they’re orders of magnitude better than Obama, and so I choose to vote for them.

I reject the notion that anything but drastic steps is a failure. I’ll take incremental change over rooting for the collapse of America.

You on the other hand, will “be there to pick up the pieces” when Obama turns this country into another Venezuela; that is, when we’re no longer allowed to vote and your notions of “picking up the pieces” are dashed by the fact that there is an entrenched totalitarian power that you can’t oppose.

If you were too bothered to cast a vote today, what can I see in you that makes me think you’ll be going house to house in a 2nd revolution? If you can’t run with the horsemen, how will you contend with chariots?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:25 AM

In order to send a message to the GOP Ayatollahs – gotta vote Obama.

And personally – I can’t wait!

It’ll feel just like smearing a rubarb pie into the face of John Cornyn!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:56 AM

This is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Hopefully, you are in a safely red state.

Throat Wobbler Mangrove on August 13, 2012 at 10:25 AM

honda is a moby.

faraway on August 13, 2012 at 10:26 AM

I don’t see you trying at all. Voting for the exact same policies is not trying. Voting for big government is not trying. You seem resigned to having people make choices for you instead of thinking for yourself and informing yourself.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:58 AM

I see you’re still not offering ANY solutions.
You & others like you are nothing but worthless, negative, b!tching, whiney a$$ do nothings.
What is is, pray tell, you expect us to do?
Are you with Steveoverthecliff guy & encourage us to vote for Obama on this fantasy notion that somehow the people & Congress are going to impeach him & run him out of office?
PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
You’re wasting everyone’s time carping like a bitter ex-wife.
You will never win anyone over without any concrete solutions or plan that will go toward fixing this problem we have.
The American populace is not going to just suddenly rise up & use the 2nd to physically oust people out of office.
Change, as someone succinctly put it here earlier will not happen fast enough for you.
So if you’re not prepared to take change slow, then you will not be helping.
People who have grown to become dependent upon the Federal Govt are going to have to be slowly weaned.

I’ll give you an analogy.
When a rancher weans his calves, he takes them immediately away from their mothers. There are always calves that do not do well & actually die from this process bcs they get sick & no amount of medicine helps them.
There are some calves that if their mothers can be heard nearby will fight like living hell to get back to mom.
The best way I’ve seen to wean calves is by erecting a very strong fence btwn the 2 & let them at least be near mom, but they can’t suck.
This way they at least have that motherly comfort while they learn to be on their own.

Death & destruction that would be very disruptive would occur in this country if one went to fast & yanked all entitlements immediately.
And that will never happen anyway bcs people will VOTE for their free lunch like they have been.
We need to slowly build generations that take pride in their freedom & self sufficiency.
So Dante & others like you, you are either FOR living in the land of Reality, or you are for living in a fantasy world where nothing you b!tch about is ever going to happen.
No offer some real solution for the world of Reality or GTFO & STFU.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 10:27 AM

History is replete with those who sought purity of thought and each either failed or became sociopathic.

theblacksheepwasright on August 13, 2012 at 10:03 AM

Bang-on!

But I submit that this needn’t be an Either/Or proposition.

Purists bore me. Then they enrage me. Then they bore me again.

Noocyte on August 13, 2012 at 10:27 AM

How DARE you hide behind your service and call me a coward, when I am at least TRYING to solve the problem by casting the best vote possible.

@Astonerii, strike the service comment. Thought I was responding to Honda.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:28 AM

And… the debate’s over. You press Honda for an alternative, insisting on a name, and he goes radio silent.

Beuller?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:33 AM

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:25 AM

Hide behind my service? I fail to see where I did that. I think you are thinking of someone else. I find it discusting when someone tries to use their military service as a way to say they are right, or are unasailable. Fallacy arguments!

The REALITY, as many are trying to say, is that the country is not going to change course under Romney. The REALITY is that are only a few years away from the point of no return. The REALITY is that who ever is in power at the time of the collapse will be blamed for the collapse. The REALITY is that if Romney is the President at the time of the collapse, conservative ideals will be damaged for generations and progressive community ideals will become the nominal for the nation, AKA from center right to Left of Left of center…

astonerii on August 13, 2012 at 10:33 AM

broken arrow

we have a broken arrow.

ted c on August 13, 2012 at 10:33 AM

You’re intentionally steering the plane into the ground, no matter that people might get hurt.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 9:59 AM

Dude, this plane is hitting the ground. The wings were sold to China. The rudder never worked in the first place. Nothing is keeping this plane from crashing. Run the numbers yourself. We could never pay back the debt we already owe even if we stopped the overspending today, and neither side has the political will to stop the overspending. I wish this wasn’t the case.

If it makes you feel better though, honda is also incorrect. The right will get the blame when it crashes no matter who is in charge because that’s how it will be reported. The totalitarian nightmare is now inevitable. In fact, it has never happened differently. All we can do is prepare.

runawayyyy on August 13, 2012 at 10:34 AM

I sent $200 to Elizabeth Warren yesterday to beat this fool. [Scott Brown]

HondaV65 on October 7, 2011 at 11:42 AM

I pick Obama

HondaV65 on August 11, 2012 at 12:44 PM

faraway on August 13, 2012 at 10:34 AM

Dang. You got me. You found me out. I really want more Obama. Sherlock Holmes has nothing on you, sir.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:54 AM

If the shoe fits Dante. When you offer nothing, you’re an Obama clone pal. Holmes would have pointed out how ridiculous your rantings are, and lack of participation in solving anything. At least Watson offered an alternative theories. You, “sir” offer nothing but distasteful pessimistic sarcasms that produce ZERO thought to solutions facing this nation. Why again should anyone seriously listen to your drivel? Because history proves we will repeat the same mistakes? That’s it!!??

I don’t see you trying at all. Voting for the exact same policies is not trying. Voting for big government is not trying. You seem resigned to having people make choices for you instead of thinking for yourself and informing yourself.
Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:58 AM

Voting for Big Government? Paul Ryan offers the first real solutions to reining in big government spending since the Gingrich rev-ol-ution, and the balanced budget amendment—-yet you call these plans big government? Try something novel like running for an office Dante. We really need your serious participation. /

Rovin on August 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM

Correct. You prefer to tilt at windmills. You should read Don Quixote some time. It’s the perfect portrait of the political perfectionist.

Is Romney/Ryan perfect? Are they my first choice? Heavens no! But Ryan is the first person to put forward an even semi-serious plan on the economy, and I’ll take incremental steps forward over moving backward.

(Yes, others have had great plans as well, but they’re not running for President)

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:09 AM

You make my point. I’m not the one tilting at windmills and holding out for hope. You are. Republicans have increased spending, the debt, deficits, given us Souter/Kelo, Roberts/Obamacare, Saclai/Sitz,TSA, DHS, Patriot Act, TARP, and on and on. And your solution? Vote Republican. And you call that trying.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:36 AM

You don’t have time for incremental steps. That’s the thing.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Either be part of the inevitable solution, baby steps, or sign the immediate death warrant of this country.
You will never get enough people in this country to IMMEDIATELY wean themselves off of the govt teat.

In order to send a message to the GOP Ayatollahs – gotta vote Obama.

And personally – I can’t wait!

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:56 AM

So you hate America so much you are going to make her drink more poison? So as to kill her off effectively?
I was thinking this way, I confess, earlier. But I’ve always been in my heart, opposed to such fatalism.
Thanks for your service, but I know lots of veterans (& both of my parents, most of my grandparents, & my GG grandmother) were/are all Veterans.
And they all loved/love America enough not to just throw their hands up in the air & join the other side bcs they are demoralized.
I have some faith in some of the American people that if we can help them understand our founding principles, look at real history, & lift up the ensuing generations into morality & pride in self sufficiency & personal responsibility, we might be able to turn back the tide of socialism.
It probably is too late.
But I have softened my heart & am willing to work toward a real solution instead of just letting American crash & burn willingly.
I’m not yet willing to die on the sword bcs I don’t think that time has come yet.
People like you, thankfully, are not in great numbers.
THANK GOD.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 10:37 AM

We barely escaped 2008 … the nation may give us another chance to rule – but if the plane goes down on our watch then James Carville’s predictions come true.

Vote Obama – then go home and stock canned goods.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

The nation may give us another chance?
If we do crash – which I agree is on the horizon – then there is only a small chance that the liberals get blamed for it even if they are at the helm. They control the schools and the media. This will all be Bush’s fault. This will all be the fault of the obstinate House holding the nation hostage (the GOP is not going to lose the House). We didn’t spend enough stimulus. Failed policies of the past. Blah blah blah. The liberals (and their lackeys in the media) would not let a crisis of that magnitude go to waste.

This isn’t going to play out like you think it is.

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 10:37 AM

Voting for Big Government? Paul Ryan offers the first real solutions to reining in big government spending since the Gingrich rev-ol-ution, and the balanced budget amendment—-yet you call these plans big government? Try something novel like running for an office Dante. We really need your serious participation. /

Rovin on August 13, 2012 at 10:35 AM

Paul Ryan, who voted for TARP, the bailouts, raising the debt ceiling, Medicare Part D, entitlement expansions? Votes that were in line with Biden and Obama? Paul Ryan, who Erskine Bowles is praising?

That Paul Ryan is offering a solution to reining in big government spending??

Are you familiar with the term cognitive dissonance?

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:38 AM

The REALITY, as many are trying to say, is that the country is not going to change course under Romney. The REALITY is that are only a few years away from the point of no return. The REALITY is that who ever is in power at the time of the collapse will be blamed for the collapse. The REALITY is that if Romney is the President at the time of the collapse, conservative ideals will be damaged for generations and progressive community ideals will become the nominal for the nation, AKA from center right to Left of Left of center…

astonerii on August 13, 2012 at 10:33 AM

Mea culpa. I thought I was responding to Honda. I mentioned it in a post right after my last response, but you must not have seen it. My apologies.

That said, I’d rather be the guy that tries for the buzzer beater and misses, than the guy sitting on the bench rooting for the other team.

You’re a quitter. I’m not. Fine, let’s agree to disagree.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:39 AM

You make my point. I’m not the one tilting at windmills and holding out for hope. You are. Republicans have increased spending, the debt, deficits, given us Souter/Kelo, Roberts/Obamacare, Saclai/Sitz,TSA, DHS, Patriot Act, TARP, and on and on. And your solution? Vote Republican. And you call that trying.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:36 AM

Yeah the GOP sucks. The Democrats suck worse. Gary Johnson or Ron Paul or anyone else you could mention are not going to win.

I deal with the choices before me – not with some fantasy that if we all just visualize libertarianism that some magical being will come down from the sky and smite our two party system.

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 10:40 AM

You make my point. I’m not the one tilting at windmills and holding out for hope. You are. Republicans have increased spending, the debt, deficits, given us Souter/Kelo, Roberts/Obamacare, Saclai/Sitz,TSA, DHS, Patriot Act, TARP, and on and on. And your solution? Vote Republican. And you call that trying.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:36 AM

Dante, it’s a simple question, but one you refuse to answer. WHO is the alternative?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:41 AM

And your solution? Vote Republican. And you call that trying.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:36 AM

WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?

Again, nothing but b!tching & whining.
Your shtick is getting old.

Do you just assume that no one is doing anything else to institute change?
In my state of ND I helped to try & eliminate the property tax with measure 2 & hold my Republican majority state legislature responsible for coming up with a real budget.
And overwhelming majority in the state voted it DOWN.
I did my part by canvassing my neighborhood & EDUCATING my fellow citizens on the contents of the measure & those who I educate voted FOR it.
But I am only ONE person & if I’d been rich, I would have inundated the news & TV locally with commercials.
So this is why the TEA PARTY came about.
Change comes slow. You try & force something too fast & people will rebel & choose what is bad for them bcs they are AFRAID of the unknown.
You cannot get your way immediately.
So stop being part of the problem & start taking some baby steps with me & help turn this country around.
We can’t turn on a damned dime & you are being unrealistic.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 10:42 AM

When Barack Obama needed to pick the co-chair for his deficit committee, which he roundly ignored in the end, he chose Bowles to represent his side on the panel.

posted at 8:41 am on August 13, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

This is so important. Obama PICKED him. How often has Obama advocated one direction, and then changed his mind? The 2006 Senate floor speech on how the debt was robbing our grandchildren, the importance of a new, civil tone, accepting federal money in 2008, and now not only rejecting his own commission, but calling Ryan, praised by the commission, a “far right wing ideologue”?

Paul-Cincy on August 13, 2012 at 10:43 AM

Dante, it’s a simple question, but one you refuse to answer. WHO is the alternative?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:41 AM

Visualize libertarianism! Pure thought vibrations!

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 10:45 AM

So you’re with Honda, then? Quit trying & let Obama run it into the ground, then pick up the pieces after? You do realize that the failed conservative state will be replaced by a totalitarian state and there won’t be anything you can do about it?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:03 AM

No sir, I am holding my fire at the moderate wing and backing Mitt with my wallet and my enthusiasm….

I have seen anarchy and “I’m alright, Jack!” in the Obama method…

I want freedom back.

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 10:47 AM

Vote Obama – then go home and stock canned goods.

HondaV65 on August 13, 2012 at 9:51 AM

This applies to you & all the others in your camp:

You’re a quitter. I’m not. Fine, let’s agree to disagree.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:39 AM

Rational +10.
These people are negative whining QUITTERS who want to drag us down with their constant negativity.

I was on the edge of that hopeless void & there are times when I do look into it.
Especially after ND’s Measure 2 went down in flames.
My fellow state citizens voted for their continued tax slavery.
I was horrified.
But it made me realize when I talked with others afterword about the measure that they had no clue what it meant & that they voted No on it simply from the commercials they heard on TV about it.
I vowed to do MY PART & educate my students & fellow citizens in any way I can.
That is all I personally can do.
I encourage others who can, to do more. Like run for the local school board etc.
The negative naysayers are just as much of a cancer to America as is the Left.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM

Dante, it’s a simple question, but one you refuse to answer. WHO is the alternative?

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 10:41 AM

I do refuse to answer WHO, and I’m not going to answer that for you because this has been central in my discussion with you: You don’t think for yourself, and you want people to tell you what to do, and here you are doing it again. I’m not going to do that. I’ve told you that there are other candidates that will be on the ballot. I’ve said to look at them, inform yourself, and ask yourself who will use the veto pen, and who is most likely to uphold the Constitution? I’ve also listed some authors that you would be wise to read: von Mises, Hazlitt, Hoppe, among others. I’m trying to show you the path.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM

So stop being part of the problem & start taking some baby steps with me & help turn this country around.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 10:42 AM

Is your baby step to vote for Romney/Ryan?

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM

THAT is reality, and I have half-a-century plus of evidence.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 9:50 AM

Now you’re just being silly.

50+ years of evidence against the R&R plan???
What is some of this evidence?

Mimzey on August 13, 2012 at 10:53 AM

I do refuse to answer WHO, and I’m not going to answer that for you because this has been central in my discussion with you: You don’t think for yourself, and you want people to tell you what to do, and here you are doing it again. I’m not going to do that. I’ve told you that there are other candidates that will be on the ballot. I’ve said to look at them, inform yourself, and ask yourself who will use the veto pen, and who is most likely to uphold the Constitution? I’ve also listed some authors that you would be wise to read: von Mises, Hazlitt, Hoppe, among others. I’m trying to show you the path.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM

There are other candidates on the ballot that are going to lose miserably. They aren’t real choices. Voting for them is more an act of making yourself feel good and pure than it is about making a real choice.

If Gary Johnson was polling in the 40s then I’d vote for him over Romney or Obama. But he isn’t so I won’t. I just went to Gary Johnson’s website and they are promoting a money bomb effort to raise $250,000. $250,000. He is not a contender. More dead people will vote for Obama than living people will vote for Gary Johnson.

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM

I tip my hat to Erskine Bowles ……………. I just hope that he becomes much more vocal in his support.

SC.Charlie on August 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM

I see the R/R critics are at it again. What these purists fail to understand are several basic concepts. Here’s a start:

1. The difference between strategy and tactics. Holding this vote or that vote against a candidate as a litmus test. Sorry, but in the real world we do the best that we can under the circumstances. TARP, for example, was necessary and the best deal that we were going to get. That it later was abused and applied contrary to the law by a POTUS indifferent to the will of Congress cannot be, in any reasonable sense, be held against those who voted for it.

2. Politics is the art of the possible. As much as we would like to see DC start amputating limbs from Fed-zilla like some deranged Civil War surgeon, the fact is that this cannot happen over night. We need leaders who will impose a fiscal discipline on DC. We need to reward those who make the sane choices on spending at the ballot box and punish those who don’t. This will change the culture of DC over time, but it will not occur over night.

MJBrutus on August 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM

No sir, I am holding my fire at the moderate wing and backing Mitt with my wallet and my enthusiasm….

I have seen anarchy and “I’m alright, Jack!” in the Obama method…

I want freedom back.

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 10:47 AM

Then you sir, and I, are on the same page.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 11:02 AM

Me thinks Dante is a Liberal Democratic troll

logicman_1998 on August 13, 2012 at 11:03 AM

Now you’re just being silly.

50+ years of evidence against the R&R plan???
What is some of this evidence?

Mimzey on August 13, 2012 at 10:53 AM

50+ years of evidence that the Republicans have grown government, have increased spending, have increased the debt, have increased the deficits, have increased taxes, have infringed on liberties, have waged unconstitutional wars, etc. Every single Republican administration has done this.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:04 AM

I do refuse to answer WHO, and I’m not going to answer that for you because this has been central in my discussion with you: You don’t think for yourself, and you want people to tell you what to do, and here you are doing it again. I’m not going to do that. I’ve told you that there are other candidates that will be on the ballot. I’ve said to look at them, inform yourself, and ask yourself who will use the veto pen, and who is most likely to uphold the Constitution? I’ve also listed some authors that you would be wise to read: von Mises, Hazlitt, Hoppe, among others. I’m trying to show you the path.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM

What BS! What a narcissist! When you fall off that perch you’ve propped yourself up on, your going to get hurt, bad.

Vince on August 13, 2012 at 11:05 AM

I’m telling you this guy is amazing, uh. I always thought that I was OK with arithmetic, but this guy can run circles around me. And, he is honest. He is straightforward. He is sincere.

And, the budget that he came forward with is just like Paul Ryan. It is a sensible, straightforward, serious budget and it cut the budget deficit by $4 trillion…just like we did.

Thank you, Erskine Bowles, for being one of those increasingly rare Democrats who speak the truth.

It’s a shame that Obama ignored you.

ITguy on August 13, 2012 at 11:05 AM

If Gary Johnson was polling in the 40s then I’d vote for him over Romney or Obama. But he isn’t so I won’t.

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM

So you base your vote not on prinicple, but on what is popular. The positions on the issues for the three you name haven’t changed, which is what an intelligent person would largely base his vote upon, just popularity numbers.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Bang-on!

But I submit that this needn’t be an Either/Or proposition.

Purists bore me. Then they enrage me. Then they bore me again.

Noocyte on August 13, 2012 at 10:27 AM

I feel the exact same way.

Is your baby step to vote for Romney/Ryan?

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM

Yes. But I see you refuse to answer our question:

I do refuse to answer WHO, and I’m not going to answer that for you because this has been central in my discussion with you: You don’t think for yourself, and you want people to tell you what to do, and here you are doing it again. I’m not going to do that. I’ve told you that there are other candidates that will be on the ballot. I’ve said to look at them, inform yourself, and ask yourself who will use the veto pen, and who is most likely to uphold the Constitution? I’ve also listed some authors that you would be wise to read: von Mises, Hazlitt, Hoppe, among others. I’m trying to show you the path.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM

We all want to know what a REALISTIC solution would be. Voting for the fall guy/unknown guy who has ZERO chance of winning in a country will literally MILLIONS of people who won’t vote for any of the people you are talking about is a vote for failure.
I’m all for a Constitutional party.
Now pray tell which national election for POTUS has ever ended in a guy with a handful of votes getting voted for?
Even the CPUSA couldn’t get their candidates voted for.
That’s why they embraced the DNC platform. They have been slowly instituting change from within.
And the have been successful.
Communists NEVER GIVE UP & work secretly & slowly behind the scenes.
And they have been WINNING.
Your pathetic attempts at winning people over will never work.
Bcs people need to be manipulated & educated.
It takes a lot of sucking up etc. to get so many to your side.
Bcs people are suckers & stupid.
Here is an example: A local sale barn, now closed, used to be the BEST barn around. If you looked at the data, anyone who sold their cows there made MORE $$ than at another barn nearby.
But people left the former barn for the latter bcs the field man gave everybody free gifts & made them feel important.
They made less $$, but they never saw it that way bcs someone was always stroking their ego & giving them things.
Now the former successful barn is CLOSED.
BABY STEPS are what we have to work with.
You refuse to be part of a REAL solution.
So go somewhere else & rant & rave.
People aren’t interested in your unrealistic ravings.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Me thinks Dante is a Liberal Democratic troll

logicman_1998 on August 13, 2012 at 11:03 AM

Then I’d say you aren’t thinking at all.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:08 AM

logicman_1998 on August 13, 2012 at 11:03 AM

I think that Dante has got it in his head that he is doing us all a great mitzvah by warning us about the horrors of R/R’s RINO-ness. He wants a Cloward-Piven type outcome, where the country goes to hell and then we can rebuild it in his own image.

Thank you Dante. We’ve been warned, now go away.

MJBrutus on August 13, 2012 at 11:08 AM

I do refuse to answer WHO, and I’m not going to answer that for you because this has been central in my discussion with you: You don’t think for yourself, and you want people to tell you what to do, and here you are doing it again. I’m not going to do that. I’ve told you that there are other candidates that will be on the ballot. I’ve said to look at them, inform yourself, and ask yourself who will use the veto pen, and who is most likely to uphold the Constitution? I’ve also listed some authors that you would be wise to read: von Mises, Hazlitt, Hoppe, among others. I’m trying to show you the path.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM

Wisdom isn’t wisdom until you give it away.

Go back and hide in your ideological foxhole with your philosophers and go cry into your Hoppes. I’ve got a war to fight in the real world.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 11:08 AM

Is your baby step to vote for Romney/Ryan?

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM

Yes.

That’s not a baby step. That’s a step in the exact same direction we’ve been going for over half a century.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:09 AM

Me thinks Dante is a Liberal Democratic troll

logicman_1998 on August 13, 2012 at 11:03 AM

Don’t insult liberal democratic trolls.

RationalIcthus on August 13, 2012 at 11:11 AM

I WANT to fix it quick, but realize we probably lack the will in our own caucus let alone Barack’s…..

we didn’t get 220 trillion in the hole overnight, and we sure as hell do not want to get out of that hole overnight either.

harlekwin15 on August 13, 2012 at 9:13 AM

So do I, but we’re in the 10%-20% on that one. We also have the luxury of not being in office and (at least in my case) not having the desire to run for office, so we can be the 10%-20%.

Also note I said “essentially debt-free”, which the last plan put as happening in the late 2040s. By necessity, the deficits would go far more quickly, and honestly, should be far quicker than projected.

He uses fairly conservative estimates for GDP growth. I suspect that his projections are pretty conservative. At any rate, the next 20 years, or so, are going to be tough because of the Baby Boomers’ retirements. There really isn’t anything that we can do about thier benefits.

ghostwriter on August 13, 2012 at 9:16 AM

If memory serves, the two Roadmaps (2008 and 2010 editions) and the two Paths (FY2012 and FY2013 House budgets) use the CBO estimates (a bit under 3% real GDP annual growth over the long-term).

Getting back to when the deficits go away under the various Ryan plans, using the CBO GDP projections, deficit spending would, if memory serves, go away in the early 2020s. I remember seeing estimates using more-robust GDP projections, based on the fact that reduced taxes would have a multiplicative effect on the economy, suggesting deficit spending would go away before the end of this decade.

Steve Eggleston on August 13, 2012 at 11:15 AM

50+ years of evidence that the Republicans have grown government, have increased spending, have increased the debt, have increased the deficits, have increased taxes, have infringed on liberties, have waged unconstitutional wars, etc. Every single Republican administration has done this.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:04 AM

Communism has done all of those things too.
If you vote for your purist, the communists will still be successful, as they have been.

So you base your vote not on prinicple, but on what is popular. The positions on the issues for the three you name haven’t changed, which is what an intelligent person would largely base his vote upon, just popularity numbers.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Go die on your proverbial sword & principles already. You have made your point about intending to do so.
Meanwhile, the rest of us will try & salvage what we can for the generations that are left behind.
They depend upon the rest of us to take the reins of leadership.
Mitt/Paul may not be the ablest leaders in this country, but I don’t see anyone else willing to risk it.
So I’ll support them bcs at least they have the stones & have been willing to pout themselves out there.
Meanwhile, the purists searches for George Washing & Thomas Jefferson to no avail.
You might as well vote for Tony Stark/Iron Man.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 11:15 AM

What angers me about the current fiscal predicament we find ourselves in is that it’s not my fault but I’m expected to pay for it. I’m 25 years old, and the best years of my earning life are being stolen to pay for the gullibility of my seniors.

In fact, forget that. Let’s call it what it is: greed. No one with their head sewed on straight could possibly believe the “promises” of the politicos going back fifty, sixty, seventy years. They screwed us younger people over royally. And for all the high-minded blather about not “passing the buck” or “kicking the can down the road for our kids,” that time is already here. Social Security is already paying out more than it takes in.

Maybe it’s time to stop framing the discussion around “saving [insert entitlement here] for current beneficiaries and reforming it for future people.” It’s time to call a spade a spade and say, “Hey, graybeards, you suckers! You swallowed a lie. You got us into this pit we’re in. Now PAY UP!”

I was just in Florida last month and my eyes opened wide at all the neatly manicured lawns, swimming pools, RV’s, and retirement homes that are being subsidized, more or less, with my Social Security, Medicare, and other entitlements contributions.

What a joke. I’m steamed.

JoseQuinones on August 13, 2012 at 11:16 AM

So you base your vote not on prinicple, but on what is popular. The positions on the issues for the three you name haven’t changed, which is what an intelligent person would largely base his vote upon, just popularity numbers.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM

Not on what is popular – on what is possible.

If your principles demand you do things regardless of what’s actually possible then go right ahead but it doesn’t justify being smug because I actually care about what my real choices are.

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 11:18 AM

That’s not a baby step. That’s a step in the exact same direction we’ve been going for over half a century.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:09 AM

I have lots of other baby steps, which I have explained above i.e. canvassing my neighborhood on local issues.
Again, you offer only certain death to us. You are asking us all to commit suicide with you based on principle.
I happen not to be ready for that option yet.
I’m still holding out some hope.
I think Mitt & Paul are morally good men. But they need our guidance & input as leaders & I pray we can help mold & guide them toward what we need.
Obviously you care only about being a purist & refuse to work with others who do not hold your purist view.
Go off & die on your proverbial sword.
And take Honda & Stevo with you.
Thankfully, you are in the minority. I find most quitters are.

Badger40 on August 13, 2012 at 11:19 AM

That’s not a baby step. That’s a step in the exact same direction we’ve been going for over half a century.

Dante on August 13, 2012 at 11:09 AM

Voting for Gary Johnson is going to turn the tide of half a century?
You’re not principled – you’re delusional.

gwelf on August 13, 2012 at 11:19 AM

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