Another mass shooting, Wisconsin Updates: 7 dead. No more police updates until 10 AM Monday.

posted at 2:01 pm on August 5, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

This story is just breaking this afternoon, so expect updates later. Details are still very sketchy, but another mass shooting has taken place. The location is a Sikh temple in Wisconsin. Multiple injuries are being confirmed by officials on the scene.

A Sikh temple in a suburban Milwaukee is the scene of a shooting today that has left an unknown number of people injured.

Oak Creek Police Department dispatcher Stephanie Uljanec says the shooting took place about 10:30 a.m. Sunday morning at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, 7512 S. Howell Ave. Oak Creek is south of Milwaukee along Lake Michigan.

“We did have a shooting,” Uljanec said. “It’s unknown how many victims there are.”

There are more than a dozen ambulances parked outside the temple, and police have corralled media and a handful of bystanders to an area near the temple.

Another paper in the area was initially reporting between 20 and 30 victims, but CNN is now saying “one dead and at least two wounded.” A couple of reporters are tweeting events live from the scene, but there are conflicting reports as to whether the shooter is “at large” or if this has turned into a hostage situation. More to come.

UPDATE 1: (Jazz) CNN Headline News has an interview with a police spokesman on the scene, saying that one officer has been shot multiple times and at least one suspect was shot. Still developing.

UPDATE 2: (Jazz) The CNN video below has an interview with a representative of the temple. They are now reporting that one shooter was shot and “put down” (not sure if that means he’s dead) and that there may be two more shooters inside the temple holding hostages. However, the police spokesman on the scene is saying he can’t confirm anything yet about remaining suspects.

UPDATE 3: (Jazz) The police chief on the scene as of 2:55 PM is saying that police are moving through the temple and have located “four deceased inside the temple, three deceased outside, including the shooter.” Confusion is still running rampant among the media, but clearly this is very bad. The cops can’t confirm whether there are any more shooters or not.

UPDATE 4: (Jazz) The latest reports we are receiving from police on the scene indicate that law enforcement teams have completed a sweep of the temple, spoken to everyone on the property and are now checking the registration of all the cars parked in the area. Looks like they are being very thorough and not jumping too fast with the media, which is good to see. There will be another update later when they have the identity of the shooter, but obviously they will not release this information to the press until they have finished investigating that person’s home, other potential properties, etc. This is a good move by the police since they don’t want to send the media scrambling to places where they will need to do investigative work. The officer who took down the shooter should clearly be recognized as a hero and the commanders running this operation seem to be really keeping it under control. It’s a tragedy to be sure, but the first responders should be praised for the work we’re seeing thus far.

UPDATE 5: This just in from Stevegg in the comments:

Two quick updates:

- Oak Creek has set up a Family Hotline for family of those who were at the temple – 888-298-1964.

- The 3:30 press conference has been pushed back to 4 pm CDT (5 pm EDT).

UPDATE 5: (Jazz) As of the 5 PM eastern briefing from the local Chief of Police, there is confirmation that there are 7 dead and 3 others injured. The police will not be releasing the names of any of the victims nor the police officer who was shot until all family members have been notified. They are treating this as an in process criminal investigation and an “active scene” and they will not be releasing the identity of the shooter. They are treating it as an incident of “domestic terrorism” and the FBI is taking over the investigation on that end. There will be another briefing tomorrow morning at 10 AM, but until then we probably shouldn’t expect much more in terms of details.


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We know that’s likely the true meaning of the Page’s cross because he has the number 14 tattooed in the middle of it. According to the United Methodist Church’s compilation of hate symbols, and the Anti-Defamation League, in fascist culture, “14″ stands for 14 words in a quote from imprisoned white supremacist David Lane:

“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

I told you he was with the Tea Party!

/

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-sick-meaning-behind-the-tattoo-on-temple-shooter-wade-michael-pages-arm-2012-8#ixzz22mfU6iQo

mankai on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

I haven’t done any digging on this punk band myself. Do you know what they are basing their assertions of racism against this band on?

NotCoach on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-revealing-2010-interview-with-temple-shooting-suspect-wade-michael-page-2012-8

mankai on August 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM

@NotCoach at least I’m not saying that unless we arm all the insane people in this country and then turn a blind eye that Hitler win. Talk about a straw man argument, it’s as ridiculous as the idea that any sort of registry is the sign of a tyranny.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 9:31 AM

From the southern “poverty” law center?!? What a joke!
One of the nation’s biggest – and richest – hate groups, yammering about the “hatred” of others — and coming up with a made-up story about neo-nazis (their own boogey-man).

You’re an idiot and a moron, you racist clown.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:27 PM

@Resist We Much, Hitler also heavily funded the military, shouldn’t we avoid doing that as well?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:11 PM

If our intent is to acquire lebensraum or to create a Third Reich and take over the world, yes, we shouldn’t have a heavily-funded military. Of course, that is not why the US has a military.

Now, you probably agree with some of the other things that Hitler and the Nazis loved like:

* Universal healthcare

* Universal education

* Kraft durch Freude (Strength Through Joy) free vacations to resorts and cruises for Germans paid for by the state, plus a national policy that guaranteed paid vacations

* State-control of the means of production

* Free or subsidised housing

* Price and wage controls

* Your health IS the state’s business (“Nutrition IS not a private matter!” – a Hitler-Jugend motto)

* Vegetarianism

* Environmentalism

* Animal rights

* State replaces the church (Kirchenkampf); Naziism becomes the state religion

* Collective replaces individual. Collective salvation supplants individual salvation. Common good comes before individual rights.

* Strong, central government and no states’ rights

* Anti-smoking campaigns

You’d be surprised at how many Progressives loved Fascism/Naziism before the horrors of the Holocaust and WWII were revealed.

The Left’s Lie About Fascism Will Outlive Cockroaches In A Nuclear Winter

M2RB: Black Sabbath, live in Paris

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 12:28 PM

Firearm Ownership is Mandatory for All Households in Kennesaw, Georgia

25 Years Later, “Gun Town USA” Continues to Maintains Exceptionally Low Crime Stats

Nicknamed “Gun Town USA” from a column titled the same and written by Art Buchwald, expectations were for the town to covert back to the Old West style of handling disagreements with ruthless shoot outs. This expectation never happened. In fact, more than 25 years after the ban, not a single resident of Kennesaw has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender. There has been one firearm related murder but not from a resident of Kennesaw. Since the ordinance, no child has ever been injured with a firearm in Kennesaw. Crime dropped after the ordinance and the city has maintained an exceptionally low crime rate ever since, even with the population swelling from 5,000 in 1982 to approximately 30,000 today. The truth is crime has plummeted and population has soared.

In comparison, the population of Morton Grove, Illinois (which passed an ordinance banning hand guns from anyone other than peace officers) has dropped slightly and the crime rate has increased, especially right after the ban.

Flora Duh on August 6, 2012 at 11:21 AM

Sorry Flora…your data and conclusions are wrong. Next time try doing a little more research instead of relying on right-wing Yahoo mini-blogs for data. I know it is easier to believe statements which reaffirm your per-existing biases, but the internet allows you to research facts quite easily.

The crime rate in Morton Grove has gone down, and the crime rate in Kennesaw has gone up. The crime rate is now higher per capita in Kennesaw than Morton Grove. That would mean the exact opposite of what you said is true. If you believed that lie so easily, what else do you believe that may be wrong? I accept your apologies in advance.

http://www.clrsearch.com/Kennesaw_Demographics/GA/Crime-Rate?compare=Morton+Grove%2C+IL

http://www.city-data.com/city/Kennesaw-Georgia.html
http://www.city-data.com/city/Morton-Grove-Illinois.html

ZippyZ on August 6, 2012 at 12:30 PM

@NotCoach it can also be read to say that you’re suppose to be in a militia, I suppose you made sure to do that as well right??

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

Did you overlook the part about the State? The state in the 2nd Amendment refers to the many states themselves. My state has not asked, nor required of me to become part of a well regulated militia. But many are armed and ready for the day that may become necessary.

your god had nothing to do with writing the constitution and it isn’t a sacred or divinely inspired document. It’s just a set of rules we made up, we can also change those rules if we really want to.

Now you are just ranting inanities.

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Meaning the right always existed as a God given right as recognized by our Founders. No enumerated rights in the Constitution are granted, they are all assumed.

NotCoach on August 6, 2012 at 12:30 PM

@Resist We Much wait till you find out where he got all those ideas!! the good ol USA and believe it or not, we set up our own empire!!! Also I quit smoking does that mean I’m an SS officer now?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:31 PM

@NotCoach at least I’m not saying that unless we arm all the insane people in this country and then turn a blind eye that Hitler win. Talk about a straw man argument, it’s as ridiculous as the idea that any sort of registry is the sign of a tyranny.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM

You really don’t understand rights, do you? Our rights are not granted by the government. An individual cannot have his rights denied him without due process.

NotCoach on August 6, 2012 at 12:32 PM

I think the 2nd Amendment is clear in establishing an individual right, but I’m not sure I see the scenario where firearm ownership provides for a substantial challenge to a modern military.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 12:14 PM

Then you completely disregard the intention of the Second Amendment.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 12:34 PM

@NotCoach so you don’t campaign for the state to start a militia? That seems counter productive to your stated goal in fighting the potential tyranny that you claim to fear. If the constitution is your blueprint then you’re leaving out a critical step. Unless you really don’t care about fighting Tyranny…

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:35 PM

@NotCoach it can also be read to say that you’re suppose to be in a militia, I suppose you made sure to do that as well right??

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

“I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”

- George Mason, co-author of the Second Amendment during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

“A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …”

- Richard Henry Lee, writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

“The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them.”

- Zachariah Johnson, Elliot’s Debates, vol. 3 “The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution.”

“… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms”

- Philadelphia Federal Gazette, 18 June 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2 Article on the Bill of Rights

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …”

- Samuel Adams, Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, “Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State”

“Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people’s liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good.”

- George Washington, First President of the United States

“To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them.”

- Richard Henry Lee, American Statesman, 1788

“The great object is that every man be armed.” and “Everyone who is able may have a gun.”

- Patrick Henry, American Patriot

“Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?”

- Patrick Henry, American Patriot

“Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not.”

- Thomas Jefferson, Third President of the United States

“The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … “

- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.

“The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”

- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8

“One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.”

- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson

“We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed.”

- Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824

“No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

- Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.

Gun control advocates always point to the word “militia” in the Second Amendment as proof that the Founders would support gun control laws. That contention is not supported by the historical documents. As the Founders continually acknowledged, A MILITIA IS THE WHOLE OF THE PEOPLE. In fact, in the Second MILITIA Act of 1792, ALL able-bodied, white men over the age of 18 were required to possess a gun.

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 12:35 PM

I see Zeke has been too busy to respond to my question, as well. Go ahead, Zeke. Tell us more about how to keep our government in check when they have our ability to resist them completely documented and kept in registers for instant perusal.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM

NotCoach Registries don’t infringe on rights, it’s what you do with them that matters.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM

Some groups in parts of India and Pakistan consider themselves “Aryan” and have a high opinion of Hitler. The world is more complicated than the simple prism by which so-called “liberals” view it.

MechanicalBill on August 6, 2012 at 9:49 AM

Iranians are considered ‘Aryans’, and many of them think quite highly of Hitler.
Hitler is widely respected and admired throughout the arab/muslim world.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM

@NotCoach it can also be read to say that you’re suppose to be in a militia, I suppose you made sure to do that as well right??

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

No, it can’t. People who don’t read very well but dislike guns have made this nonsequitur for years.

The Amendment reads “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state…” – stating that a militia is necessary to keep a free state secure – “the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed”.

The PEOPLE. PEOPLE. Not the right of the militia, the right of the PEOPLE.

Now go ahead and either veer off to some other issue like you normally do, or make some pointless sarcastic remark that does nothing to diminish this side of the argument.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 12:38 PM

Registries don’t infringe on rights, it’s what you do with them that matters.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM

Does that apply to warrantless wiretaps, drones over US soil, and taking DNA samples from every American?

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 12:40 PM

@NotCoach so you don’t campaign for the state to start a militia? That seems counter productive to your stated goal in fighting the potential tyranny that you claim to fear. If the constitution is your blueprint then you’re leaving out a critical step. Unless you really don’t care about fighting Tyranny…

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:35 PM

You are impressing no one with your silliness. Is free speech only granted when there is a clear threat to our rights?

NotCoach on August 6, 2012 at 12:40 PM

NotCoach Registries don’t infringe on rights, it’s what you do with them that matters.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM

So you believe it is constitutional to enroll in a registry before you can speak freely?

NotCoach on August 6, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Again, you are also calling Sikh victims of the attack morons because they are also arguing this can be traced to anti-Muslim hatred. Why are you attacking the victims?

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 9:54 AM

So, you admit that you are too stupid to know – even after being instructed by your betters – the difference between Sikhs and muslims.
And that you so despise the Sikhs that you have yet to offer any sympathy to the victims – but reserve your sympathy for muslims only.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Flora I saw that post…there’s nothing there relevant to this issue. Are you saying that there’s been some kind of mass-attack on 6 year old conservatives because of 8 ugly youtube comments? How do you expect to be taken seriously?

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 10:11 AM

Hypocrite! And racist.

But not unexpected from you, dirt-common trash.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:45 PM

how soon before the NRA goons try to turn this into a “it’s not the guns that killed people” talking point?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Cry me a river, nancy-boy.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:46 PM

@Resist We Much wait till you find out where he got all those ideas!! the good ol USA and believe it or not, we set up our own empire!!! Also I quit smoking does that mean I’m an SS officer now?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:31 PM

You don’t know the first meaning of “empire.” I am British by birth. Britain had an empire. So did Spain, Portugal, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Russia, the Hapsburgs’ Austrian-Hungarians, etc. The US has never had an empire except in the small minds of people like Howard Zinn. If the US had been an empire builder, then countries like Mexico, Germany, Japan, the Philippines, etc., would have been annexed and made part of the United States. Those countries aren’t even part of a “commonwealth” as are Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc., with the UK.

Yes, he got the idea for the Aktion T4 programme from the Progressives and their eugenics in the US, but most of the American Progressives and their forebears in the Peitism Movement were influenced by Germans.

No, you quit smoking on your own. You didn’t, I assume, attend classes where you swore to quit as a gift to the Führer…kind of like a life-time Lenten sacrifice. On second thought, maybe, you did. /

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 12:47 PM

What’s with the trolls around here demanding ‘apologies’ from those who disagree with them? Is that something new?

Liam on August 6, 2012 at 12:47 PM

Iranians are considered ‘Aryans’, and many of them think quite highly of Hitler.
Hitler is widely respected and admired throughout the arab/muslim world.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:36 PM

Pictures of Hamas, Hezbollah, the PA, etc., performing the Hitlergruß!

Islamic Naziism – Yesterday and Today

“Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history and religion. This saves your honour.”

- Amin al-Husseini, Berlin, 1 March 1944

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 12:51 PM

I find it suspicious that the Southern Poverty Law Center is cited as the source of info about this guy right out of the gate…

Galtian on August 6, 2012 at 12:51 PM

What’s with the trolls around here demanding ‘apologies’ from those who disagree with them? Is that something new?

Liam on August 6, 2012 at 12:47 PM

A poor argumentation style in which one insists they have established a moral position above yours. Probably can be considered an fallacious appeal to authority style of argument.

NotCoach on August 6, 2012 at 12:52 PM

Then you completely disregard the intention of the Second Amendment.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 12:34 PM

Neither disregard nor assume its premise. The right it grants is clear. Whether the right is sufficient to satisfy the premise is a worthwhile question.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 12:54 PM

None other than Ted Cruz won teh SC case in 2006, representing 31 states. Individuals have the right to guns…not only militias. The rest is all idiotic babbling.

Schadenfreude on August 6, 2012 at 12:56 PM

@Fallon people are killed with cars, we still pass laws about who drives them and put safety features on them. Should we stop doing that as well? Why is it that we license everything dangerous except guns and expect them just to take care of themselves?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 10:48 AM

And just which amendment of the Constitution guarantees anyone the “RIGHT” to own or drive a car? I don’t believe I’m familiar with it.
On the other hand, there IS an amendment that guarantees everyone the RIGHT to “keep and bear arms”. Go on. Look it up. It’s the Second.
We’ll wait, nancy-boy.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 12:56 PM

how soon before the NRA goons try to turn this into a “it’s not the guns that killed people” talking point?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 10:10 AM

It isn’t, gnat brain. It’s people who kill.

Schadenfreude on August 6, 2012 at 12:58 PM

Would firearms provide much resistance to a government that had control of the military and economic centers? Unless you could put something in the air a resistance seems difficult to scale, when the government could wait things out and use drone strikes against high-value targets.

I think the 2nd Amendment is clear in establishing an individual right, but I’m not sure I see the scenario where firearm ownership provides for a substantial challenge to a modern military.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 12:14 PM

Afghanistan seems to have done quite well with individual firearms against an army with technological, weapons, and air superiority that had control of the country’s military and economic centers.

The Spanish guerillas during Napoleon’s time, the Soviet partisan groups during the Nazi invasion, the French Resistance and Marshal Tito’s partisans during the Nazi occupations all demonstrated that small groups of armed semi-civilians could do enormous damage to the modern armies that were in control of the country.

And let’s not forget that we were flushing Japanese soldiers out of islands in the Pacific for nearly a decade AFTER the surrender in World War II.

Last, but certainly not least…..the poorly-armed American colonists against the superpower of the 18th century, the British army and navy.

The US military is just over one million people.

There are tens of millions of individual citizens who own guns in this country than that.

Keep in mind that an F-16 or a drone is a lethal weapon in the sky — and a sitting duck on the runway or in a hangar. Furthermore, with a drone, they’re computer-controlled and directed by radio transmission — all of which are totally susceptible to being jammed, hacked, or worse.

The people of the United States could nicely take care of ourselves and the threat if our government were to turn against us.

And that is why wannabe fascists like Obama and his cats-paws like Zekecorlain are perpetually trying to disarm and silence us.

northdallasthirty on August 6, 2012 at 12:59 PM

From Samuel Adams while he was brewing a fantastic beer “If ye love wealth (and wealth redistribution by theft/thuggery)* better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.“

* I added the words in parenthesis

Schadenfreude on August 6, 2012 at 1:02 PM

By the way, the answer to Zekecorlain and his fellow gun-banners is very simple: what mental issues do you have that would cause you to immediately go on a murderous rampage if you purchased, owned, saw, or even touched a gun or ammunition?

And when they protest say, “Well, certainly you do. After all, you are saying that it is vital for the government to pass laws that ban you from ever owning a gun or ammunition. What mental issues do you have that would make you misuse one?”

It immediately short-circuits their power trip, which is all that this is. Zekecorlain and his fellow wannabe-fascists are not intending to follow these laws themselves; they are using them to retaliate against and disarm those who they dislike and wish to abuse. When you force them to apply the law and their rhetoric equally to themselves, you expose the fact that they have zero plan of ever following these laws, or enforcing them against the Obama Party power base; they simply want other people disarmed and helpless.

northdallasthirty on August 6, 2012 at 1:04 PM

Neither disregard nor assume its premise. The right it grants is clear. Whether the right is sufficient to satisfy the premise is a worthwhile question.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 12:54 PM

Sufficiency aside, which is clearly up for discussion, the intention of 2A is specifically to provide the ultimate means by which to overthrow tyrannical government. Just because those means have technologically evolved does not dilute that intention.

I might also point out that insurrections kept the US military on their toes in Iraq and Afghanistan, with weapons inferior to what many US citizens can freely own.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:05 PM

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 10:48 AM

You could enumerate private pilot licenses, radio communications lic. and etc.

Do you think the thugs will ever care if they are lic. or not? They will Always have guns, legally or illegally, of any kind they want.

Schadenfreude on August 6, 2012 at 1:05 PM

how soon before the NRA goons try to turn this into a “it’s not the guns that killed people” talking point?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Experiment for you, f**khead: set a loaded gun on a table in the middle of a room full of people, walk away, and see how many people the gun kills on its own.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:06 PM

northdallasthirty on August 6, 2012 at 1:04 PM

All socialist and communist thugs, which is what the looters are, fascist thugs, want equality for thee but not for them. They want to rule the masses, while they live better than emperors – see Obama and Michelle.

Schadenfreude on August 6, 2012 at 1:07 PM

? I accept your apologies in advance.

ZippyZ on August 6, 2012 at 12:30 PM

No one ‘owes’ you an apology for anything, you supercilious little prig.
Your attempt at smug condescension – in emulation, one can safely suppose, of your comrade libtardanddie – was a failure.
Work on it.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 1:18 PM

On a related note, seven are shot in a Detroit rampage perpetrated by a woman. Will the trolls try making more political hay here?

http://www.freep.com/article/20120806/NEWS01/120806018/Woman-opens-fire-Detroit-Princess-riverboat-police-search-suspect

Liam on August 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM

“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”

I told you he was with the Tea Party!

/

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-sick-meaning-behind-the-tattoo-on-temple-shooter-wade-michael-pages-arm-2012-8#ixzz22mfU6iQo

mankai on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

Wait a minute. If he was a garden-variety white supremacist, and went in to kill non-whites, that invalidates libfree’s 2 dozen post premise that he was absolutely sure of and that everyone knew, that the shooter mistook them for Muslims and was avenging 9/11. Which would mean libfree was wrong, over and over again. You know what that means? It means he’ll seamlessly slip into some other part of his fantasy, and never even acknowledge that what he was spouting for hours was dead wrong.

Paul-Cincy on August 6, 2012 at 1:31 PM

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 12:35 PM

Hmph. Who cares what a bunch of rich white guys think. What do they know about rights? I bet none of them has even seen The Vagina Monologues.

/

mankai on August 6, 2012 at 1:31 PM

how soon before the NRA goons try to turn this into a “it’s not the guns that killed people” talking point?

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Tell ya what, nancy-boy… We’ll put a loaded gun on a table, and we’ll watch it for eight hours. And if that gun gets up off the table on its own and shoots someone, I’ll kiss your azz in the public square at high noon and give you a half-hour to draw a crowd.

On the other hand, if that gun doesn’t get up on its own and shoot someone…you never post anything at HotAir again.

How’s that grab ya, nancy-boy?

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 1:34 PM

Again, you are also calling Sikh victims of the attack morons because they are also arguing this can be traced to anti-Muslim hatred. Why are you attacking the victims?

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 9:54 AM

I’ve asked you numerous times to defend or condemn the NBPP. You have never answered the question, so I can only assume you think it’s just fine for them to very publicly preach the need to kill as many white people as possible, including their babies. You have a deep hatred of white people, so you try to make everything about that, however much you have to twist or outright lie to try to make your case. This is just more of that. You are a disgusting hypocrite.

Night Owl on August 6, 2012 at 1:36 PM

I might also point out that insurrections kept the US military on their toes in Iraq and Afghanistan, with weapons inferior to what many US citizens can freely own.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:05 PM

We are probably fairly close in agreement here. Yes, Iraqi resistance was a costly problem for the US military. However, another way to look at it is that a horribly corrupt Saddam or Qaddafi would still be in power were it not for the heavy weaponry that the US and other governments wielded against them. The abundant firearms that the Iraqi and Libyan populace held weren’t going to topple the tyrants.

Perhaps the counter-argument there is that the small weapons enable a critical mass of resistance, while other military partnerships are pursued. It’s what the US colonies implemented against the British, and why Franklin and others had important missions in Paris.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 1:37 PM

On a related note, seven are shot in a Detroit rampage perpetrated by a woman. Will the trolls try making more political hay here?

http://www.freep.com/article/20120806/NEWS01/120806018/Woman-opens-fire-Detroit-Princess-riverboat-police-search-suspect

Liam on August 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM

Let’s see:

The altercation apparently began as an argument aboard the boat, Quinn said. Radio One Detroit’s station Hot 107.5, which plays hip hop and rap, was hosting the On Deck Sunday Moonlight Cruise.

Clearly, then, hip hop and rap music causes hate, and since Obama supports and endorses violent rap and hip hop, this is Barack Obama’s fault.

Now watch as libfreeordie implodes.

northdallasthirty on August 6, 2012 at 1:40 PM

ZippyZ on August 6, 2012 at 12:30 PM

To begin with, your City-Data link for Kennesaw has no numbers past 2005, so you fail beyond belief in creating a post solely to challenge another poster’s numbers with outdated numbers of your own.

Secondly, Flora’s point is regarding a 25-year span, not the 1999 limit which City-Data uses. Unless you can show those numbers to demonstrate other than what Flora is claiming, you haven’t proven anything.

Third, your postscript where you pontificate on what else she might be wrong about can be equally applied to your own inaccurate conclusions.

Fourth, I know Flora, and I have no idea who you are, apart from an ostensible troll.

Try again, dip.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:46 PM

Will the right admit that the shooter confused Sikhs with Muslims and was acting out of anti-Muslim/Middle Eastern hatred?

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 8:14 AM

Yeah, and Bin Laden was actually acting out of anti-Irish hatred on 9/11. He just confused NYC with Dublin.

Good lord, man. You’re not this stupid.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM

However, another way to look at it is that a horribly corrupt Saddam or Qaddafi would still be in power were it not for the heavy weaponry that the US and other governments wielded against them. The abundant firearms that the Iraqi and Libyan populace held weren’t going to topple the tyrants.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 1:37 PM

Have you any proof to cite the notion that the Iraqi and Libyan citizens were held back from revolution only by their perceptions of their possessed weaponry? I might also cite that it was not Iraqi government personnel whom the Iraqis turned their weapons on, but on their US “liberators”. The ones with that heavy weaponry that you just cited.

So, we have a populace that resists heavily powered US forces, but not(by implication) lower powered Saddam forces. It appears evident that limitations of civilian-owned arms was not the deciding factor in their refusal to engage in armed uprising against the Huissein regime.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:57 PM

Good lord, man. You’re not this stupid.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM

No, he’s not stupid. He’s pathologically dishonest. He will link any act of violence to right-wing politics, disregard any links of violence to left-wing politics, and finish up by accusing you of racism for noting this sickening double standard.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:58 PM

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 8:14
Good lord, man. You’re not this stupid.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM

Oh, yes s/he/it is.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 1:59 PM

No, he’s not stupid. He’s pathologically dishonest. He will link any act of violence to right-wing politics, disregard any links of violence to left-wing politics, and finish up by accusing you of racism for noting this sickening double standard.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:58 PM

Yeah, and it’s sad, because like crr before him, I think libfree is a troll that actually has a brain. However, he’s a dishonest, racist smear merchant, and I will no longer give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s actually on this site for honest debate.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 2:05 PM

Congress rolls over and lets the emperor be emperor, via his Capo Holder. See the last lines and get yer stuff in the next few days.

Schadenfreude on August 6, 2012 at 2:11 PM

Yeah, and it’s sad, because like crr before him, I think libfree is a troll that actually has a brain. However, he’s a dishonest, racist smear merchant, and I will no longer give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s actually on this site for honest debate.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 2:05 PM

He was here as DeathToMediaHacks before (I think) you enrolled pulling the same crap. I guess he got back in during the last open reg…

OmahaConservative on August 6, 2012 at 2:20 PM

Good lord, man. You’re not this stupid.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 1:55 PM

Yes, he is.

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 2:21 PM

@NotCoach at least I’m not saying that unless we arm all the insane people in this country and then turn a blind eye that Hitler win. Talk about a straw man argument, it’s as ridiculous as the idea that any sort of registry is the sign of a tyranny.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM

It’s nice to see that your ignorance on many different topics does not keep you from posting comments. Your self-esteem must be really high!

Night Owl on August 6, 2012 at 2:27 PM

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:25 PM

And a good “Heil Hitler” to you too, mein Freund/meine Freundin.

Dunedainn on August 6, 2012 at 2:31 PM

at least I’m not saying that unless we arm all the insane people in this country

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM

Odd that you seem to think you’re fit to judge who is or is not insane, and what rights they have.

…especially given the fact that you’re paranoid.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 2:47 PM

NotCoach at least I’m not saying that unless we arm all the insane people in this country and then turn a blind eye that Hitler win. Talk about a straw man argument, it’s as ridiculous as the idea that any sort of registry is the sign of a tyranny.

Zekecorlain on August 6, 2012 at 12:26 PM

Cars kill far more than legal guns do. I say we ban cars and crazy people from owning cars. Give up your license and vehicle now!

melle1228 on August 6, 2012 at 3:03 PM

A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

(Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services)

Guns
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000.
Yes, that is 80 million.

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188.

Statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
Remember, “Guns don’t kill people, doctors do.” http://rense.com/general62/gns.htm

BAN ALL DOCTORS!

melle1228 on August 6, 2012 at 3:07 PM

A child is 100 times more likely to die in a swimming accident than in gunplay, writes Steven D. Levitt, University of Chicago economics professor and best-selling author.

Levitt analyzed child deaths from residential swimming pools and guns and found one child under 10 drowns annually for every 11,000 pools. By comparison, one child under 10 each year is killed by a gun for every 1 million guns, according to his research, outlined in a new book “Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side to Everything,” which he co-wrote with journalist Stephen J. Dubner.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1421386/posts

BAN ALL SWIMMING POOLS1

melle1228 on August 6, 2012 at 3:11 PM

Yes, he is.

Resist We Much on August 6, 2012 at 2:21 PM

Nah, I don’t think so. He’s being purposefully obtuse to smear the right wing and push the blame for this incident on “Islamophobia,” even though it wasn’t an attack on Arabs or Muslims.

Good Solid B-Plus on August 6, 2012 at 3:11 PM

The Centers for Disease Control, an agency of the federal government, has conducted studies of many of the gun-control laws in place, such as waiting periods, registration, and bans on certain types of firearms. The results showed that the idea that gun control laws have reduced violent crime is simply a myth. The CDC is hardly a shill for the NRA. Political trends throughout the country have reflected the growing realization by the majority of Americans that restricting the rights of law-abiding citizens is not only ineffective as a means of combating crime, but counter-productive. All of the research over the last few decades bears this out. (One of many excellent sources is “More Guns; Less Crime” by former University of Chicago and current Harvard professor, John Lott).

http://www.suntimes.com/opinions/letters/14160460-474/cdc-exposes-gun-control-myths.html

melle1228 on August 6, 2012 at 3:16 PM

Family members of those killed are still victims of the attack (if you don’t get that, wow). And if you’ve only been watching Fox you probably haven’t seen or heard any interviews with members of the Sikh church. On CNN they have been speaking with both members of the church and reps from national Sikh organizations. The message has been the same, they have been dealing with crap like this since 9/11 and it finally culminated in a mass-killing. Are you actually going to claim these people don’t know they aren’t Muslim? Or maybe you should start listening to what they are saying.

libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 9:06 AM

I don’t understand why you are going on and on about this in a conservative blog. White supremacists are not conservatives, on the contrary. They endorsed Occupy Wall Street.

Gelsomina on August 6, 2012 at 5:08 PM

Have you any proof to cite the notion that the Iraqi and Libyan citizens were held back from revolution only by their perceptions of their possessed weaponry? I might also cite that it was not Iraqi government personnel whom the Iraqis turned their weapons on, but on their US “liberators”. The ones with that heavy weaponry that you just cited.

So, we have a populace that resists heavily powered US forces, but not(by implication) lower powered Saddam forces. It appears evident that limitations of civilian-owned arms was not the deciding factor in their refusal to engage in armed uprising against the Huissein regime.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 1:57 PM

Saddam probably spent most of his energies thwarting coup plots–Ayad Allawi was just one of a long line of coup plotters. Saddam had an elaborate internal police force, with perhaps the most effective agency headed by Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti. Saddam resorted to genocidal acts against the Kurds, most famously in Halabja. All of these tyrannical acts went on over the years while Iraqis were well-armed.

Even in 1990, after Saddam’s military had be routed by the US, he still had enough resources to suppress the armed Shiite and Kurd rebellions once the US decided not to support the insurgents.

Anyway, agree with you generally. Not sure though that Iraq demonstrates that armed citizens can overthrow a tyrant or several divisions of a global military power.

dedalus on August 6, 2012 at 5:17 PM

“On a related note, seven are shot in a Detroit rampage perpetrated by a woman. Will the trolls try making more political hay here?”

I would guess not. See, one was a (no doubt) alcohol fueled fight resulting in one idiot person over-reacting by shooting seven, one critically.
The other is a trained killer and admitted racist attacking a house of worship and murdering six totally innocent worshipers, and critically wounding three.

nice deflection though…

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 5:21 PM

Found it a bit sad that our friends at FoxNation found the murder of six innocent people at a house of worship “inspiring” by an over than ten-to-one margin (as compared to “offensive”).
I looked for a story about the Missouri mosque being razed (by arson, no doubt), but interestingly it wasn’t mentioned on the sight at all. I guess they were too busy covering the big Jay Carney story.

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 5:31 PM

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 5:31 PM

Hey, I’ve got an idea. Why don’t you go to the HuffingPaint Post where you belong?

Dunedainn on August 6, 2012 at 5:37 PM

India blames Obama for engendering cultural intolerance, but particularly pitting one segment of Americans against the other.

maverick muse on August 6, 2012 at 6:57 PM

The shooter went from being a missile technician to a psychological warfare specialist before the Army realized what they’d done, letting him go with less than honorable discharge, not their problem any more?

Obama spreads his AUDACITY whether you want it or not. “If they bring a knife, you bring a gun to the fight,” Obama 2008.

maverick muse on August 6, 2012 at 7:01 PM

I currently have on CNN, watching the female reporter going fishing looking for people in Wisconsin to argue for more gun control. A cop who is friends with the wounded officer, to a trauma surgeon treating the victims. Sadly for her, both refused to advocate for more gun control, and the trauma surgeon informed her that no, he had not seen more gun violence since Wisconsin’s more liberal gun control laws went into effect–and that people use knives too (who’da thunk it?)

quikstrike98 on August 6, 2012 at 7:48 PM

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 5:31 PM

You sure do have a lot of “no doubts” in your posts – which signifies that you are doing nothing more than speculating and making crap up out of whole cloth. But, that’s not surprising. It’s what leftists do.
No need of facts for you people to decide what happened.

Solaratov on August 6, 2012 at 8:38 PM

“you people”, huh?
“making crap up”, huh?
Care to show what I made up? Speculation on the alcohol fueled charge…probably. The arson charge? Sure, buildings (especially ones targeted by arsonists recently) bursting into flames at 3 A.M. …happens all the time.
The rest of my posts are factual. Boy “you people” are sure thin skinned, guess I’ll head back over to Foxnation and see how my people are doing this evening. Maybe they’ll have another weasel Jay Carney breaking story? lol
Don’t worry, I’ll vote “offensive” for ya.

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 9:43 PM

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Your integrity and credentials are unimpeachable.

tom daschle concerned on August 6, 2012 at 9:55 PM

I looked for a story about the Missouri mosque being razed (by arson, no doubt)…

greataunty on August 6, 2012 at 5:31 PM

Oh look. Another a**hole who makes up facts as long as they’re advantageous to his point of view.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 10:56 PM

Oh look. Another a**hole who makes up facts as long as they’re advantageous to his point of view.

MadisonConservative on August 6, 2012 at 10:56 PM

Actually a mosque was burned to the ground and the story was covered by Fox.

lexhamfox on August 7, 2012 at 12:41 AM

lexhamfox on August 7, 2012 at 12:41 AM

I was quoting his “by arson, no doubt” assertion.

MadisonConservative on August 7, 2012 at 8:10 AM

A**hole , huh?
Ouch. That really hurts.
O.K., you win.
Obama is a Kenyan commie marxist who is destroying America, liberty, and the constitution AND is married to fat pig who hates America and steals taxpayer dollars with her constant vacationing.

There, now do i get a compliment? Because your approval is what I live for, you know.
BTW, the “inspiring” count (over at the Nation) on the Sikh shooting story is up to 432…in case you were wondering.
Have a great day.

greataunty on August 7, 2012 at 10:49 AM

lexhamfox , thanks for the link. I rarely go to the “mother site” anymore since they stopped accepting comments. I wonder why?
Unfortunately, Foxnation must have missed that story…I’m sure it would have set a new “inspirational” record. But, I hear they just built a new Muslim center for terrorism in Murfreesboro, Tenn., so who knows, perhaps they’ll get another chance, huh?
What a great country we live in.

greataunty on August 7, 2012 at 11:00 AM

greataunty on August 7, 2012 at 11:00 AM

Who burned down the mosque?

NotCoach on August 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM

A**hole , huh?
Ouch. That really hurts.
O.K., you win.

Awesome.

Obama is a Kenyan commie marxist who is destroying America, liberty, and the constitution AND is married to fat pig who hates America and steals taxpayer dollars with her constant vacationing.

greataunty on August 7, 2012 at 10:49 AM

I didn’t say any of that. Thanks for being a bigot and setting up a strawman 90 miles high, though.

MadisonConservative on August 7, 2012 at 11:16 AM

Obama is a Kenyan commie marxist who is destroying America, liberty, and the constitution AND is married to fat pig who hates America and steals taxpayer dollars with her constant vacationing.

There, now do i get a compliment? Because your approval is what I live for, you know.
BTW, the “inspiring” count (over at the Nation) on the Sikh shooting story is up to 432…in case you were wondering.
Have a great day.

greataunty on August 7, 2012 at 10:49 AM

Seek psychiatric help. You are not well.

tom daschle concerned on August 7, 2012 at 12:43 PM

” From calls to “nuke the middle east” to demands that anyone with brown skin and a beard be profiled at airports, to anxiety over “sharia law” and even “sharia babies” we have collectively, as a culture, in both parties worked to demonize”

- libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 8:11 AM

So, you didn’t have a problem when a Pennsylvania judge let a Muslim off scot-free for assaulting an atheist? The judge said that the atheist “asked for it” by “insulting” Mohammed.

From Professor Jonathan Turley, a Progressive and a friend:

“Pennsylvania Judge Throws Out Charge For Harassing Atheist While Calling The Victim A Doofus

There is a surprising story out of Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania that seems the perfect storm of religious tensions. You begin with Ernie Perce, an atheist who marched as a zombie Mohammad in the Mechanicsburg Halloween parade. Then you add Talaag Elbayomy, a Muslim who stepped off a curb and reportedly attacked Perce for insulting the Prophet. Then you have a judge (Judge Mark Martin) who threw out the criminal charges against Elbayomy and ridiculed the victim, Perce. The Judge identifies himself as a Muslim and says that Perce conduct is not what the First Amendment is supposed to protect….”

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/02/24/pennsylvania-judge-throws-out-charge-for-harassing-atheist-while-calling-the-victim-a-doofu

Resist We Much on August 7, 2012 at 5:13 PM

“From calls to “nuke the middle east” to demands that anyone with brown skin and a beard be profiled at airports, to anxiety over “sharia law” and even “sharia babies” we have collectively, as a culture, in both parties worked to demonize”

- libfreeordie on August 6, 2012 at 8:11 AM

by William Bigelow

The most harrowing prospect is the Obama Administration’s passivity in the face of attempts to introduce aspects of sharia law into our legal system. Now there is strong and open evidence of the Obama administration collaborating with Islamist activists to ensure the path toward sharia law is accelerated.

Just last week, Thomas Perez, Assistant Attorney General of the Department of Justice (DOJ) Civil Rights Division, was asked this question by Trent Franks (R-AZ), a member of the House Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on the Constitution:

“Will you tell us here today that this Administration’s Department of Justice will never entertain or advance a proposal that criminalizes speech against any religion?”

Perez refused to answer. Four times.

And why would Franks target Perez?

Here’s why:

Last October, at George Washington University, there was a meeting between DOJ officials, including Perez, and Islamist advocates against free speech. Representatives from the Islamist side included Mohamed Magid, president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA). The ISNA was an unindicted co-conspirator in a Hamas terror funding trial in 2008, as well as functioning as a Muslim Brotherhood Front. The leader of the Islamist attack was Sahar Aziz, an Egyptian-born American lawyer and Fellow at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, a Muslim advocacy group based in Michigan. At the meeting, the Islamists lobbied for:

1. Cutbacks in U.S. anti-terror training

2. Limits on the power of terrorism investigators

3. Changes in agent training manuals

4. A legal declaration that criticism of Islam in the United States should be considered racial discrimination

Aziz said that the word “Muslim” has become “racialized” and, once American criticism of Islam was silenced, the effect would be to “take [federal] money away from local police departments and fusion centers who are spying on all of us.”

And what was the response from Perez and the DOJ officials?

Nothing.

That’s right:

No objection.

No defense of our first amendment right to free speech.

Resist We Much on August 7, 2012 at 5:21 PM

So, why no new posts about this? Details about the shooter are out and out and pretty much in line with what people expected.

mythicknight on August 7, 2012 at 11:17 PM

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