Don’t hold your breath for new gun laws

posted at 12:31 pm on July 22, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

We’ve already seen the sadly inevitable rush to capitalize on the tragedy in Colorado as an excuse to start passing strict gun laws, ranging from Bloomberg to Rendell and more. But as we sort through the aftermath of the disaster and the victims begin to pick up the pieces, is this opportunism going to result in any new legislation along those lines? One study linked by the AP seems to indicate that the gun grabbing crowd may wind up being disappointed.

Once, every highly publicized outbreak of gun violence produced strong calls from Democrats and a few Republicans for tougher controls on firearms.

Now those pleas are muted, a political paradox that’s grown more pronounced in an era scarred by Columbine, Virginia Tech, the wounding of a congresswoman and now the shooting in a suburban movie theater where carnage is expected on-screen only.

“We don’t want sympathy. We want action,” Dan Gross, president of the Brady campaign said Friday as President Barack Obama and Republican challenger Mitt Romney mourned the dead.

As this look at history lays out, there was a time in the nineties when gun control garnered a lot more public support. A ten year ban was placed on certain types of rifles while Bill Clinton was in office and the Brady Campaign obviously felt like they were winning the day. But then, slowly but surely, the tide began to shift.

By 2004, when the assault weapon ban lapsed, congressional Democrats made no serious attempt to pass an extension. President George W. Bush was content to let it fade into history.

Public sentiment had swung.

According to a Gallup poll in 1990, 78 percent of those surveyed said laws covering the sale of firearms should be stricter, while 19 percent said they should remain the same or be loosened.

By the fall of 2004 support for tougher laws had dropped to 54 percent. In last year’s sounding, 43 percent said they should be stricter, and 55 percent said they should stay the same or be made more lenient.

While many of the Democrats in this article bemoan the ascendency of the NRA in the modern era, the fact is that they have deftly handled a campaign of public awareness which has been winning support on both sides of the aisle. There are some cycles where their financial support to campaigns has been almost exclusively to the GOP. This year 12% of their donations went to Democrats. And the far Left side of the Hill hasn’t been able to swing anything close to a majority of their own members to take a big stand on this. Obama himself said we must protect our 2nd amendment rights after the tragedy. The issue is simply too politically toxic.

This isn’t to say that 2nd amendment supporters shouldn’t be vigilant in the weeks and months ahead. But I also don’t think it’s time to panic.


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I disagree

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:07 PM

Yes yes yes, of course a Marxist domestic enemy of the United States like your self disagrees. Now STFD and STFU.

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 2:08 PM

Police reported that the perp was well-armored with full torso, groin and neck protection, and a ballistic helmet. Didn’t mention the manufacturer, but until more info is disclosed it looks like he was well protected.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Gun laws are needed to strip movies and video games of guns !!

If our youth were not exposed to how guns splattered people by those media, but how folks are traumatized by taking of life (Zimmerman for example), they would be less inclined to want find out what kind of “buzz” you get from shooting someone.

If movies and video games were limited to martial art take downs of bad guys, we would have a boom in martial arts and physical fitness — and that would be good. Our wayward glory seeker would know if he wanted to do a lot of damage with martial arts, it would take a lot of work — probably more work that they were up to.

If people made there acquaintance with guns thru hunting and target shooting sports, we would have a lot less mass killings. If you want “gory” up close and personal, become a surgeon.

KenInIL on July 22, 2012 at 2:13 PM

Laser sights have their limitations and some folks rely on them when they should learn to shoot more accurately, but they do have their uses.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:07 PM

I agree – and in fact, I didn’t even start using mine at the range until I had a few months of good, consistent groupings under my belt. First time I used it, I couldn’t believe how much the damn dot was moving. I’m not nearly as steady as I thought I was, so all things considered, it’s a great tool for that.

tdpwells on July 22, 2012 at 2:13 PM

I’m sorry but didn’t liberal unemployment and other benefits fund this guys fantasy? So the federal gov’t caused this? How is a student phd candidate getting unemployment insurance?

aniptofar on July 22, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Not only does the NRA have most swing-district Democrats terrified,

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:07 PM

God Bless the NRA.

tdpwells on July 22, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Police reported that the perp was well-armored with full torso, groin and neck protection, and a ballistic helmet. Didn’t mention the manufacturer, but until more info is disclosed it looks like he was well protected.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

2 or 3 .45′s at center mass from 25 to 50 feet away would still have put him down long enough for the person with the .45 to have walked up to him and shot him in the head.

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:14 PM

We’ve already seen the sadly inevitable rush to capitalize on the tragedy in Colorado as an excuse to start passing strict gun laws, ranging from Bloomberg to Rendell and more.

excerpt: Jazz Shaw

.

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

Rahm Emanuel

.
Yup. We’ve seen it before, somewhere . . . . . .

listens2glenn on July 22, 2012 at 2:15 PM

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 2:08 PM

It is my understanding that conventional Kevlar stops penetration by acting as a basket,…the crossed fiber layers just catch the slug, thus diverting the energy over a larger area, as novaculus pointed out above. I’ve seen picures of a barechested cop after being shot with a .357 while wearing a vest. He survived, but his chest was a mass of terrible bruises. I seem to recall reading somewhere, that type of armor is also vulnerable to a knife thrust, because the tip slides between the fibers.

a capella on July 22, 2012 at 2:16 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Just too much misinformation and unsupported speculation to bother with. I don’t know what you are trying to prove, but if it is that one well-armed and trained citizen couldn’t have made a difference, you are just full of shit. Three or four such citizens would have given this guy all he could handle, and prevented him from merrily shooting helpless victims at will.

And while we are at it, since you demanded to know my bona fides, what exactly are your qualifications to offer expert opinion?

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM

PersonFromPorlock on July 22, 2012 at 1:00 PM

I like the way that you think… :P

TeresainFortWorth on July 22, 2012 at 2:18 PM

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Agreed. Very likely to knock the target down, and would certainly have disrupted the casual shooting at unarmed and helpless victims.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:20 PM

We’ve already seen the sadly inevitable rush to capitalize on the tragedy in Colorado as an excuse to start passing strict gun laws, ranging from Bloomberg…

…why was Gloomberg’s statement one of the first the LSM had out on the Aurora shootings…before it’s own Mayor?
Is that little twerps City similar in size and scope and makeup?
WTF? We go for an assessment and opinion on a situation in Colorado…to Gloomberg?…Why?

KOOLAID2 on July 22, 2012 at 2:20 PM

That amount of energy transferred by a large caliber handgun bullet is not diminished by body armor, it is only spread out over a larger area. Armor may prevent penetration, but it does not prevent injury. It does not alter the physics. Two center mass hits from a large caliber handgun are going to disrupt your program, with or without body armor. A head shot is very likely to take you out of the fight, even if you are wearing a Kevlar helmet.

I guess then you’re saying that body armor is useless?

I guess someone forgot to tell the two robbers in the Hollywood bank robbery they were supposed to go all fetal position from the hundreds of rounds they took hits from.

You may have firearms experience as a shooter, have you ever been in an actual surprise firefight, in a dark smokey theater, against an armored opponent using an AR and a shotgun against your concealed carry weapon?

No? Then why would you even think for a moment the chances would be in your favor????

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:22 PM

Only a Liberal would see the results of gun control in Chicago, D.C., and NYC and think “Hey, that didn’t work. Let’s double down on doing that!”

Liberals: Doubling down on failure for decades.

ProfShadow on July 22, 2012 at 2:24 PM

Since ID requirements ‘disproportionately affect minorities’, and since gun ownership is a constitutionally-guaranteed right, then clearly any legal requirement that an ID be presented when buying a gun disproportionately denies gun ownership to minorities and is unconstitutional under the Equal Protection clause.

My, wouldn’t it be interesting to see the Holder Justice Department toe-dance around that one!

PersonFromPorlock on July 22, 2012 at 1:00 PM

Tip toe thru the tulips..

Hill60 on July 22, 2012 at 2:24 PM

Police reported that the perp was well-armored with full torso, groin and neck protection, and a ballistic helmet. Didn’t mention the manufacturer, but until more info is disclosed it looks like he was well protected.
novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Yeah, I realize that; Heard the Chief say it myself…. But I don’t trust that THEY would know the difference, and report it correctly even if they did, at first, anyway. The cops ‘play the game’ just as much as the media do, to make the perpetrators seem invincible.

(And don’t get me wrong, I’m a big fan of Law Enforcement, in general.)

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 2:25 PM

It is my understanding that conventional Kevlar stops penetration by acting as a basket,……….. that type of armor is also vulnerable to a knife thrust,…..
a capella on July 22, 2012 at 2:16 PM

Yeah, that is why I mentioned the hard plates… They distribute the force over a large enough area to minimize incapacitation (as well as increasing penetration protection).

As to knives, yeah, a slender, ‘pointy’ one will penetrate some of the lower end vests. So will some small caliber but high velocity projectiles.

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 2:31 PM

Getting that double tap in the conditions described inside that theater would have been difficult (lights out, chemical smoke and panic. Not to mention that most people do not use a 45 ACP as their carry piece. I happen too since I want the stopping power.

chemman on July 22, 2012 at 1:10 PM

…listening to these Dems on the talk shows say that if people had been carrying under the conditions described..MANY MORE people would have died if THEY responded. Oh woe is us!
…I don’t know about you…but if everybody has hit the deck and the guy is up on the stage and the rapid gun flashes are coming from the same area…I don’t think I’ll be pumping shots at the guy next to me!

KOOLAID2 on July 22, 2012 at 2:32 PM

Yes yes yes, of course a Marxist domestic enemy of the United States like your self disagrees. Now STFD and STFU.

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

I think you meant to say “married, property-owning,taxpaying citizen paying for his kids’ higher education with not insignificant sums invested in the capitalist system.”

Because you want to be accurate, right.

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:33 PM

Strict gun control laws do nothing.

Murder is against the law, and yet between 8-10 thousand people a year are murdered. The number was as high as 23,000 in 1990 (it might have been 1993).

Which brings us to the fact often overlooked by the MSM that murders and non-negligent homicides have steadily declined between 1993 and today. There are about 10,000 fewer today. This is happening as the population in the US increased by about 50 million and many more people now own guns and demand for conceal weapons permits are skyrocketing. Shouldn’t the murder rate be going up, not down?

And then there is the inconvenient truth that Chicago, NYC, and DC have the strictest gun control laws but the highest murder rates.

And then there is the problem that people kill people, not the gun.

Another 10 thousand gun control laws wouldn’t have prevented James Holmes from walking into that theater with all the guns he could carry. They won’t stop armed robberies. They won’t stop assassinations. The only thing gun control does is deter honest, law abiding people from owning a gun, because criminals buy their guns off the street for the most part so they are more difficult to trace.

In Holmes’ case, he did not fit any of the 10 restrictions embedded in the Brady Act. He may be completely insane, but he had a clean record.

If Holmes had bought his weapons off the street, he would have likely used a nearly unjammable, fully automatic AK-47 with a 75 round drum magazine instead of a semi-automatice AR-15 that jammed and 30 round magazine.

Anyway, I don’t know how you pass laws that force criminals and insane people to obey the laws. If it were possible, then there would be no murders because it’s against the law.

BMF on July 22, 2012 at 2:34 PM

We don’t know if the vest was soft armor (designed more for fragmentation) or whether the vest had SAPI plates. But even with the degree of protection that he had – an armed response would have made his task much more difficult. And I believe would have ended with the perp dead.
Regarding the LA bandits – I’m under the impression that they were “jacked” up on drugs (in addition to having body armor), plus the LAPD was engaging them from a much greater distance with their pistols. The distance in the theater would have been much closer – and the kinetic energy impact on the body armor would have had a disrupting effect.
My personal opinion is that armed resistance from the audience would have resulted in less bloodshed.

Hill60 on July 22, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Woot!

I’m picking up my brand spanking new gen-4 .40cal Glock-22 at 11:11am tomorrow morning (paperwork filled out and purchase made at 11:10am nine days ago — 10 days to the minute!).

Oh yeah — by the way…

If you live in California ya’ll best get your guns ASAP if you’re in the market. San Francisco Democrats along with some various Democrat sponsors throughout the state are getting ready to make a massive push on gun control due to this Aurora tragedy — and since the Libtards rule everything and have for so long it’s going to be a hatchet job on the rights of California resident American’s that will make history. They’ve had all kinds of legislative proposals on the ready for quite some time — updating as necessary — just so they can submit them when the time is right. They’ve been waiting patiently for a tragedy that “shocks the public’s conscience” such as this Aurora, Colorado tragedy to whip em out and slap em down on the table.

That’s according to my Father-in-law who is a Republican California State Assemblyman. He’s livid about it so it must be truly heinous. I’ve never seen nor heard him like this before.

FlatFoot on July 22, 2012 at 2:37 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Just too much misinformation and unsupported speculation to bother with. I don’t know what you are trying to prove, but if it is that one well-armed and trained citizen couldn’t have made a difference, you are just full of shit. Three or four such citizens would have given this guy all he could handle, and prevented him from merrily shooting helpless victims at will.

And while we are at it, since you demanded to know my bona fides, what exactly are your qualifications to offer expert opinion?

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Um, actually I never asked anything about you, and I’m not really interested either to be honest. You seem like someone I would normally really respect and enjoy talking with, etc. but seeing as this is the Internet and all, I don’t really care or want to know who you are.

As for my “bona fides” ( love that phrase btw – always makes me think of that George Clooney movie) I’ll just say that I am very familiar with body armor, ballistics energies and weapons, and I realize how realistically engaging this COWARD with a concealed carry caliber weapon would have been futile 99.9% of the time.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

I think you meant to say “married, property-owning,taxpaying citizen paying for his kids’ higher education with not insignificant sums invested in the capitalist system.”

Because you want to be accurate, right.

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:33 PM

All this and you’re still a liberal? Yep guys, you can’t fix stupid.

Rio Linda Refugee on July 22, 2012 at 2:40 PM

…concealed carry caliber weapon …
KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

You keep saying that. Would you mind telling us exactly what a ‘concealed carry caliber weapon’ is? Thank you in advance.

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Just by the way how did he get in? When I go to the movie theaters and try to slip in thru the emergency exit the door is ALWAYS locked from the outside. Negligence or inside help?

odannyboy on July 22, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Going to get my conceal carry soon……

crosshugger on July 22, 2012 at 2:43 PM

put him down long enough for the person with the .45 to have walked up to him and shot him in the head. SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:14 PM

And then that person would be Zimmerman’d for using unnessary force on this poor misguided soul. (Wish I could say this was a /sarc…but it would probably happen.)

Dingbat63 on July 22, 2012 at 2:44 PM

Just by the way how did he get in? When I go to the movie theaters and try to slip in thru the emergency exit the door is ALWAYS locked from the outside. Negligence or inside help?

odannyboy on July 22, 2012 at 2:42 PM

IIRC, He saw the previous showing of the movie and propped the door open somehow.

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 2:45 PM

…have you ever been in an actual surprise firefight, in a dark smokey theater, against an armored opponent using an AR and a shotgun against your concealed carry weapon?

No? Then why would you even think for a moment the chances would be in your favor????

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:22 PM

That’s an amateurs question. I guarantee you, if I had a handgun in that theater when this happened, there is a better than 50/50 chance that the gunman would not have killed 12 people.

Most concealed carry people would have been able to stop this guy and if there would have been 2, 3, 4…. people firing back, this guy would have been toast.

Vince on July 22, 2012 at 2:46 PM

I guess then you’re saying that body armor is useless?

I guess someone forgot to tell the two robbers in the Hollywood bank robbery they were supposed to go all fetal position from the hundreds of rounds they took hits from.

You may have firearms experience as a shooter, have you ever been in an actual surprise firefight, in a dark smokey theater, against an armored opponent using an AR and a shotgun against your concealed carry weapon?

No? Then why would you even think for a moment the chances would be in your favor????

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:22 PM

“I guess then you’re saying that body armor is useless?”

You’re not guessing, you’re lying. I never said any such thing, so you can jam that nonsense where the sun don’t shine.

The Hollywood guys were wearing multiple layers of body armor over virtually their entire bodies, enough that their mobility was significantly impaired. The police were armed with 9mm pistols, nothing high power. And still one of them was taken down, and the other seriously injured before he shot himself.

No, I haven’t been in any kind of a firefight. Have you? Still waiting to hear your qualifications to offer the “expert” opinion s you are spouting ad nauseum on this subject. Been taking lessons from Daikocoocoo?

And you can jam that final straw man too. Of course body armor is an advantage. It prevents penetration injuries. I never said or inferred an armed but unarmored man would have an advantage over an armed and armored man. But body armor doesn’t make a man impregnable, which is what you are apparently arguing. I know I would sure a hell rather have any caliber handgun than none.

Armed with a large caliber handgun, at least there is the opportunity to stop the threat.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:46 PM

Vince on July 22, 2012 at 2:46 PM

You betcha.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:47 PM

Just by the way how did he get in? When I go to the movie theaters and try to slip in thru the emergency exit the door is ALWAYS locked from the outside. Negligence or inside help?

odannyboy on July 22, 2012 at 2:42 PM

I’ve seen two things – one that he rigged the door beforehand with the ticket stub he bought, and another more recent story coming out is that a witness said that someone let him in, so…not sure. But that’s what I’ve seen in various news stories thus far. I’m not certain that they know exactly right now. If so, I’ve not come across it yet.

tdpwells on July 22, 2012 at 2:49 PM

IIRC, He saw the previous showing of the movie and propped the door open somehow.

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 2:45 PM

Emergency exits are supposed to have alarm systems. I know that the ones in the hotel I worked for in Colorado were.

Rio Linda Refugee on July 22, 2012 at 2:49 PM

…and I realize how realistically engaging this COWARD with a concealed carry caliber weapon would have been futile 99.9% of the time.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

If you are saying that “return fire” from a concealed carry caliber weapon would have had 0.1% or less chance of changing the dynamics of the ongoing situation to any greater degree than what existed than YOU have a 99.9% chance of being in error.

Yoop on July 22, 2012 at 2:50 PM

Emergency exits are supposed to have alarm systems. I know that the ones in the hotel I worked for in Colorado were.

Rio Linda Refugee on July 22, 2012 at 2:49 PM

Many theaters I have been to allow patrons to either leave back thru the lobby or just go out the doors up front by the screen. I usually bolt out those doors.

I do know what you are talking about though.

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Keep feeding the troll(s), folks. It’s Sunday — plenty of time to kill.

FlatFoot on July 22, 2012 at 2:51 PM

And then that person would be Zimmerman’d…
Dingbat63 on July 22, 2012 at 2:44 PM

Well, to be fair, THIS perpetrator appears to be melanin AND skittles deprived, and in the process of slaughtering many. I doubt there would be many political points to be made by even a leftist politician or District Attorney to railroad a guy (or gal) that stopped him .

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 2:51 PM

And then that person would be Zimmerman’d for using unnessary force on this poor misguided soul. (Wish I could say this was a /sarc…but it would probably happen.)

Dingbat63 on July 22, 2012 at 2:44 PM

They’d go after him/her for ignoring the theatre’s no firearms rule.

tdpwells on July 22, 2012 at 2:51 PM

I support new guns laws:

– Mandatory ownership
– Establishments prohibiting carrying on premises responsible and liable for actions of those who ignore the prohibition.

Dusty on July 22, 2012 at 12:44 PM

Now you’re talking. Especially No.2

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 2:53 PM

Murder is against the law, and yet between 8-10 thousand people a year are murdered. The number was as high as 23,000 in 1990 (it might have been 1993).

Which brings us to the fact often overlooked by the MSM that murders and non-negligent homicides have steadily declined between 1993 and today. There are about 10,000 fewer today. This is happening as the population in the US increased by about 50 million and many more people now own guns and demand for conceal weapons permits are skyrocketing. Shouldn’t the murder rate be going up, not down?

And then there is the inconvenient truth that Chicago, NYC, and DC have the strictest gun control laws but the highest murder rates.

Just a hint: If you want to be taken seriously, at least get your basic facts right. New York’s murder rate is relatively low for a major city. DC’s is #7 — we get our guns from Virginia, btw, the effect our gun control laws is negligible — and Chicago doesn’t make the top 10. New Orleans, in gun-friendly Louisiana is number one with a bullet by a large margin, St. Louis, in gun-friendly Missouri is #2, and Detroit is #3.

Also, if you’re going to start a post with a statistic, nail down the right date so it doesn’t look like you’re making it up.

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:53 PM

Many theaters I have been to allow patrons to either leave back thru the lobby or just go out the doors up front by the screen. I usually bolt out those doors.

I do know what you are talking about though.

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 2:51 PM

I think that this incident may alter these practices though.

Rio Linda Refugee on July 22, 2012 at 2:54 PM

I’ll just say that I am very familiar with body armor, ballistics energies and weapons, and I realize how realistically engaging this COWARD with a concealed carry caliber weapon would have been futile 99.9% of the time.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

Your conclusion is sufficiently preposterous to undercut the credibility of the assertions which precede it.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:54 PM

400+ well trained and armed against 2. pt I of IV.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkEt2Fr1kZg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

wolly4321 on July 22, 2012 at 2:55 PM

In my state that would have gotten the responding shooter arrested for shooting to kill.

chemman on July 22, 2012 at 12:50 PM

And even a third year law student would have been able to get the case thrown out or dismissed.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 2:55 PM

Just by the way how did he get in? When I go to the movie theaters and try to slip in thru the emergency exit the door is ALWAYS locked from the outside. Negligence or inside help?

odannyboy on July 22, 2012 at 2:42 PM

IIRC, He saw the previous showing of the movie and propped the door open somehow.

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 2:45 PM

There was no previous showing of the movie. It was released on July 20, and theaters (like record stores used to) would sell the product at midnight since it was technically the release date.

He purchased a ticket, sat in the theater for awhile, and then left via the exit, propping open the door for his return.

Dante on July 22, 2012 at 2:56 PM

Obama himself said we must protect our 2nd amendment rights after the tragedy. The issue is simply too politically toxic.

Then why have Hillary go to the UN to develop and ratify a ‘meaningless’ UN Small Arms Treaty, hhmmmm?

love2rumba on July 22, 2012 at 2:58 PM

It is my understanding that conventional Kevlar stops penetration by acting as a basket,…the crossed fiber layers just catch the slug, thus diverting the energy over a larger area, as novaculus pointed out above. I’ve seen picures of a barechested cop after being shot with a .357 while wearing a vest. He survived, but his chest was a mass of terrible bruises. I seem to recall reading somewhere, that type of armor is also vulnerable to a knife thrust, because the tip slides between the fibers.

a capella on July 22, 2012 at 2:16 PM

No disrespect intended, but your understanding is actually wrong. Kevlar vest’s do not stop bullets at all. Anyone who thinks they do, does not understand how or what the Kevlar vest is.

Ok, quick lesson on what Kevlar vest’s are and how they work.

Kevlar is a 2 valance bond synthetic carbon fiber. This gives the Kevlar fibers one of the strongest covalent chemical bond possible. The consequence of this is that Kevlar fibers stretch a long time before they finally break.

Kevlar vests are nearly useless against projectiles that are not rotating. Let me repeat that. Kevlar vests are nearly useless against projectiles that are not rotating.

The average firearm round uses spin, i.e. projectile rotation as a means of stabilizing the projectiles flight characteristics. There is an equation that will give you the actual RPM of any round fired out of any firearm that uses projectile spin.

That equation is, RPM= v/C (also Muzzle Velocity(in fps) x (12/twist rate in inches) x 60 = Bullet rpm. For a .223 or 5.56 from your average “Assault Weapon” that mean that the bullet is rotating at around 300,00 RPM.

The way Kevlar vests “STOP” bullets is based on the physics principal that energy can always be deflected. As the rotating bullet strike the Kevlar, the individual Kevlar fibers get caught on the bullet, friction heats them up and causes them to bind to the bullet. As the bullet rotates it stretches the Kevlar, each time an individual Kevlar fiber is stretched to the point of breaking, their is an angular transfer of kinetic energy from the bullet to the Kevlar fibers in the vest.

What this does in physics terms is alter the foot print of the area of kinetic energy transfer. Again just as an example and not to be 100 percent mathematically correct. Let’s say that a .223 or 5.56 round is traveling at a velocity of 2200 feet per second, the round is .223 of a inch in diameter diameter times velocity gives you Newtons of impact force, in this case around 60,000 pounds per square inch.

What the Kevlar does is to increase that .223 foot print to one that is now several inches in diameter approximately 2 1/2 to 3 inches in diameter while reducing the 60,000 PSI down to a couple thousand PSI.

This is why you will never hear a professional refer to any kind of body armor designed for protecting against firearms as “Bullet Proof” it is always refereed to as “Resistant”.

As novaculus pointed out earlier, that kinetic energy is still dangerous to someone wearing body armor, it’s just not as likely to be lethal. A couple of round in the right place and someone wearing body armor is still going down and could be in big trouble.

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

Um, actually I never asked anything about you…
KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

The “GI Joe” crack raised the issue. I laid out some of my background, and I can back it up. You offered no specifics, and the nonsense you have spouted all over this thread establishes that you are yet another opinionated ignoramus.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

and I realize how realistically engaging this COWARD with a concealed carry caliber weapon would have been futile 99.9% of the time.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

So why not just enjoy the rape.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

Also, if you’re going to start a post with a statistic, nail down the right date so it doesn’t look like you’re making it up.

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:53 PM

.

3 Questions.
1) Do you own a mirror
2) Do you own a kettle
3) Are you a pot

VegasRick on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

Very helpful. Thank you.

a capella on July 22, 2012 at 3:03 PM

“I guess then you’re saying that body armor is useless?”

You’re not guessing, you’re lying. I never said any such thing, so you can jam that nonsense where the sun don’t shine.

The Hollywood guys were wearing multiple layers of body armor over virtually their entire bodies, enough that their mobility was significantly impaired. The police were armed with 9mm pistols, nothing high power. And still one of them was taken down, and the other seriously injured before he shot himself.

No, I haven’t been in any kind of a firefight. Have you? Still waiting to hear your qualifications to offer the “expert” opinion s you are spouting ad nauseum on this subject. Been taking lessons from Daikocoocoo?

And you can jam that final straw man too. Of course body armor is an advantage. It prevents penetration injuries. I never said or inferred an armed but unarmored man would have an advantage over an armed and armored man. But body armor doesn’t make a man impregnable, which is what you are apparently arguing. I know I would sure a hell rather have any caliber handgun than none.

Armed with a large caliber handgun, at least there is the opportunity to stop the threat.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:46 PM

You’ve gone way too far with this response sir. You proclaim you have all these very admirable qualifications, yet you don’t possess the self control to be civil in an online discussion????

I don’t believe you are who you say you are.

You lied 3 times in this last post, and misrepresented my statements. Obviously I am calling your credibility into question at this point.
If you realistically feel that a Citizen using a concealed carry caliber would have successfully engaged this COWARD, then your years of supposed training have been for naught.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:04 PM

Most people like this unemployment taking college student obama supporternever fight back when confronted. The body armour and all the shiny goodies where just that. He folded like a democrat when someone else had a gun as well. The 71 yo citizen had a gun and used it while the armed criminals ran like cowards and hurt no one. Didn’t happen in Colorado. Rarely do these armed cowards fight back when an equalizer is brandished. If the obama news media reported the thousands of attacks defended by CC holders successfully, you anti-gun idiots would be out of work.

frizzbee on July 22, 2012 at 3:05 PM

I never said or inferred…

Implied.

Dante on July 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM

Um, actually I never asked anything about you…
KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

The “GI Joe” crack raised the issue. I laid out some of my background, and I can back it up. You offered no specifics, and the nonsense you have spouted all over this thread establishes that you are yet another opinionated ignoramus.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

First, the G.I. Joe crack wasn’t even directed at you, so once again you’re lying.

Secondly, this is the FOURTH time in just the last few minutes you have personally insulted me. Again, that lack of self control belies that you are not who you say you are.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM

I’m still waiting for an answer to: “What exactly, in your expert opinion, is a “concealed carry caliber weapon”?
Again, thanking you in advance.

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 3:11 PM

A ten year ban was placed on certain types of rifles
- Jazz Shaw

A massive thumbs up for not making the egregious mistake of calling those rifles ‘assault wepons/rifles’. And another one for not invoking the fake concept of ‘high capacity’ magazines.

Jazz may be a RINO spiritual brother of Michael Medved and son of Arlen Specter but he got this right at least.

CorporatePiggy on July 22, 2012 at 3:12 PM

Many theaters I have been to allow patrons to either leave back thru the lobby or just go out the doors up front by the screen. I usually bolt out those doors.

I do know what you are talking about though.

[tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 2:51 PM]

I think that this incident may alter these practices though.

[Rio Linda Refugee on July 22, 2012 at 2:54 PM]

I’m going to blame this on the liberals in government. If they didn’t keep cranking up the minimum wage, movie theaters would be able to afford ushers who monitor the theater and make sure those doors are closed so that no one can come in that way.

There should be a discussion about repealing the minimum wage laws. If it saves just one life, repeal would be worth it.

Dusty on July 22, 2012 at 3:13 PM

Implied.

Dante on July 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM

:)

Dusty on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Associated Press, IN
In Indianapolis 17-year-old Gerald Watson stood near a policeman who questioned a robbery suspect when the suspect’s accomplice appeared on the scene and shot the officer down. Watson, who had taught marksmanship at the YMCA, grabbed the fallen policeman’s service revolver and shot the felon dead.

The Memphis Press-Scimitar, Memphis, TN
A Missouri state trooper had been shot three times by two armed robbery suspects when armed citizen Robert Riley of Tiptonville, Tenn., rushed to his aid. Riley fired a small caliber pistol at the assailants until they surrendered. The law officer was then rushed to a hospital.

The Post, Houston, TX
In the finest tradition of armed citizens who take on crime in their communities, Texan Travis Neel helped save a wounded Harris County deputy sheriff’s life. Witnessing the shooting by one of a trio of Houston gang members after a traffic stop just west of Houston, Neel–who was on his way to his pistol range–pulled his gun and fired, driving the officer’s assailants away. An off-duty sheriff’s deputy also came on the scene and joined Neel in covering the deputy, whose life was saved by his body armor. The trio was captured after a manhunt.

The Bulletin, Norwich, CT
While the situation ended without incident, armed citizen Michael Acree stood ready to lend a hand when a police officer stopped a carload of unruly teenagers outside his Salem, Connecticut, home. Noticing the youths scuffling with the officer, Acree retrieved his pistol and went out onto his lawn. When the youths saw Acree and his handgun, they calmed down and the situation ended peaceably. Acree earned the appreciation both of town officials and the officer.

The Daily Commercial, Leesburg, FL
Vincent McCarthy wasn’t afraid to lend a hand when he noticed a police officer struggling with a man and woman at the side of the road. He tried to help subdue the man who was kicking the officer in the face. Despite McCarthy’s warnings, when the man pressed his assault, the tour boat captain shot him once in the leg with a pistol he is licensed to carry and stopped the attack. Neither the officer nor McCarthy were seriously injured.

The Observer, Charlotte, NC
A North Myrtle Beach, N.C., citizen was credited by the city’s public safety director with possibly saving the life of Police Officer Richard Jernick. Jernick had pulled over a suspected bank robber’s car after a chase, when the suspect charged the cruiser and pointed a gun at the officer, who was still behind the wheel. At that point authorities said, the robbery suspect saw that James Beach, a semi-retired electrician who had joined the pursuit, had a pistol pointed at him. Startled, the robber ran for his car, and Officer Jernick was able to shoot and wound him.

Source

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

and I realize how realistically engaging this COWARD with a concealed carry caliber weapon would have been futile 99.9% of the time.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:38 PM

So why not just enjoy the rape.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

It’s funny how several of you have keyed into this one very accurate statement I made. You feel threatened that the “Liberals” will use this argument to “justify” suppressing 2nd Amendment Rights, don’t you? I get it, it’s scary to think that there could ever be a scenario where having your weapon won’t do you a bit of good, and that “Liberals” will use that against us.

It doesn’t change the fact that this was an unwinable scenario, 99.9% of the time,

That is why I posted that this scenario is not the real purpose of the 2nd Amendment, but I guess some of you have trouble accepting the reality of this particular situation, and at that point don’t really care what the facts are.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Restrictive Gun laws only protect CRIMINALS from being SHOT by law abiding citizens.

TX-96 on July 22, 2012 at 3:16 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

No, actually, it was the word “futile” that got me.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 3:19 PM

Congress should pass a mandate that everyone should carry a weapon,
unconcealed,everywhere with the exception of bars. This would eliminate
most of the indiscriminate killing of innocent people..and help clear out over crowded prisons at the same time.

maelstrom on July 22, 2012 at 3:19 PM

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Good find. You really do your homework. Thanks.

SparkPlug on July 22, 2012 at 3:20 PM

Dale Vigliarolo and his wife were walking into Holiday Market when they spotted 43-year-old David Shuten in the parking lot wielding a large hunting knife. After a failed attempt to break into a vehicle, Shuten turned his attention to a nearby couple with an infant child. As Shuten approached the family, Vigliarolo drew his .38 Special and demanded he drop his weapon. Shuten dropped the knife and sat on the ground until police arrived. He was then transported to a nearby hospital for psychiatric evaluation. (Royal Oak Review, Royal Oak, MI, 3/14/12)

People fled in terror when a gunman entered a medical building and took several people hostage. A doctor at the practice, Jeff Ferguson, retrieved his gun and guarded an exit allowing an estimated 50 people to escape down a stairwell, warning them, “If this guy opens this door, I’m going to have to shoot him.” Ferguson said after the ordeal, “I was absolutely prepared to shoot him, yes.” Despite negotiators’ best efforts to get 28-year-old Dominic Oliver to surrender peacefully, he was later shot during a confrontation with police. He died at a local hospital hours later. (FOX News, Colorado Springs, CO, 2/28/12)

Source

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

where having your weapon won’t do you a bit of good,

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Seriously? There’s simply no way to know this.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM

I’m still waiting for an answer to: “What exactly, in your expert opinion, is a “concealed carry caliber weapon”?
Again, thanking you in advance.

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 3:11 PM

Sorry, got tied up with someone telling lies for a minute there.

Typical concealed carry calibers (and these vary depending on time of year due to concealability issues, usually light calibers in summer to less clothing coverage, larger in winter) are .45acp (a notoriously poor performer against body armor I might add) 9mm, .40 and .380acp – of course there are quite a few others to choose from. A real powerhouse if you don’t mind carrying a revolver (a little harder to conceal, but MUCH more reliable than an auto) I recommend then.357 mag. It’s also not great against body armor, but the higher fps (and resulting energy) make it a highly effective round. Just watch the over penetration with that one!

Let me know if you have other questions and I can put up a few links for you, if you want to research what you might want to carry.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:22 PM

It’s funny how several of you have keyed into this one very accurate statement I made.

[KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM]

I think they’re making fun of your bald assertion that has no basis in fact and is merely your opinion.

Dusty on July 22, 2012 at 3:23 PM

I don’t believe you are who you say you are.

Ah, that grieves me deeply.

You lied 3 times in this last post, and misrepresented my statements. Obviously I am calling your credibility into question at this point.

Identify, specifically, the three lies or STFU.

If you realistically feel that a Citizen using a concealed carry caliber would have successfully engaged this COWARD, then your years of supposed training have been for naught.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:04 PM

You are the one who is consistently misrepresenting what I have said. I have never said an armed citizen would have stopped this guy, only that an armed citizen could have stopped him. The odds of success for an armed citizen are surely greater than for an unarmed citizen, and would increase with the power of the handgun and the number of armed citizens.

You are the one who posted this patently preposterous theory:

engaging this COWARD with a concealed carry caliber weapon would have been futile 99.9% of the time.

You shouldn’t be surprised that knowledgeable people call you out for spewing such idiocy.

And do please explain that terminology, “concealed carry caliber”. That is a new one on me, and I’m sure the answer will be just as well-informed as the rest of your remarks.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 3:24 PM

“The Constitution IS NOT in a foreign language, nor is it in the often times deceptive legalese of modern-law. It was written plainly, so that all citizens would understand its meaning without question or need of a legal interpreter.”

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 12:42 PM

I’ve always said this myself. crrap6 was one of those people who seemed to think only lawyers & judges are able to properly ‘interpret’ what it says.
I read it & it’s pretty plainly written.
Nothing in there is hard to understand. Nor are there different ways to look at everything regarding it.
But people have always made $hit up outta thin air when it doesn’t suit their purpose the way things are.

Now this heated discussion some of yall are having about What Ifs in the CO dealie, I have obviously never been under fire.
But I have watched people in many situations under duress & in very dangerous situations they could see coming for a short time & had a split second to react & make a decision.
Most people are self preserving in their responses physically.
Which means most people in a dangerous situation are only looking out for themselves.
I have been in situations on horseback, where bcs of my ability & experience, I did not panic & I automatically took control of the situation whereas many other people would have just naturally tried to jump off, run, hide, etc.
And facing another human being confidently in a crazy situation will often unnerve the perpetrator of the situation enough that you have the advantage of surprise.
This is just based upon my own observations in life, not from the movies.
So I do believe, not knowing but what the news has given us of the CO incident, that if there were people there who were armed, chances are they would have been the kind of people who knew how to shoot & handle a gun & there is a good chance lives might have been saved. Even against a crazy person.

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:25 PM

Oh crap the mass murderer is wearing body armor.
Might as well sit patiently and wait your turn to get shot.
/

Kenosha Kid on July 22, 2012 at 3:27 PM

So why not just enjoy the rape.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM

You REALLY don’t understand what I’m getting at here?

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 3:27 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Do you think he would’ve attacked that theater if he knew everyone, or most everyone, was carrying?

Dante on July 22, 2012 at 3:27 PM

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:22 PM

Why are you so heavily invested in the notion that 1-4 armed citizen’s couldn’t have had a greater than 0.1% chance of stopping James Holmes?

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 3:27 PM

If you realistically feel that a Citizen using a concealed carry caliber would have successfully engaged this COWARD, then your years of supposed training have been for naught.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:04 PM

Anything is possible.
Why is that so hard to believe?
Sometimes using a knife in a gunfight can result in a win.

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:28 PM

Why are you so heavily invested in the notion that 1-4 armed citizen’s couldn’t have had a greater than 0.1% chance of stopping James Holmes the COWARD?

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 3:27 PM

tom daschle concerned on July 22, 2012 at 3:29 PM

where having your weapon won’t do you a bit of good,

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Seriously? There’s simply no way to know this.

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

Actually, it’s more accurate to accept that there are some scenarios where having a weapon will do no good, then it is to believe there aren’t.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:30 PM

If you realistically feel that a Citizen using a concealed carry caliber would have successfully engaged this COWARD, then your years of supposed training have been for naught.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:04 PM

Excuse me, but exactly what are your qualification for making a statement like this? Do you have ay actual real firearms experience?

I used to design body armor for DARPA, which may not make me the most qualified to speak on this subject, but does make clear that I am not ignorant of either firearms nor body armor.

The assertion you are making here is, well entirely false and totally absurd. Body Armor does not make the wearer invulnerable, only individuals who are completely ignorant of what body armor is foolishly believe that.

What body armor does, is increase your likelihood of surviving a conflict with armed individuals. What it emphatically does not do is make you invincible.

Oh, and please define your statement, “concealed carry caliber”. My CC is .45. Most of the individuals who I know who have CC, theirs are in the 9mm or .40, or .45 range.

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 3:34 PM

Fact Sheet: Guns Save Lives

Concealed carry laws help reduce crime

* Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9

* Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and

* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11

* Vermont: one of the safest five states in the country. In Vermont, citizens can carry a firearm without getting permission… without paying a fee… or without going through any kind of government-imposed waiting period. And yet for ten years in a row, Vermont has remained one of the top-five, safest states in the union — having three times received the “Safest State Award.”12

* Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rates in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida’s concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.13 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period — thus putting the Florida rate below the national average. 14

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is far more likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder.

1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.

2. And even the 155 “crimes” committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport.15

Criminals avoid armed citizens

* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.16

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.17

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.18

Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando’s rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.19

* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.20

Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that “a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun.”21

* 74% of felons polled agreed that “one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime.”22

* 57% of felons polled agreed that “criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police.”23

btw, this and the previous data I have posted is not intended to preach to the choir. It is for those liberals who I know will be drawn to this thread like a moth to a flame.

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:35 PM

Let me know if you have other questions and I can put up a few links for you, if you want to research what you might want to carry.
KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:22 PM

Well, thank you for that info. Which by the way, was a test, rather than a request for new information

And yeah, while a .45 is not a good penetrator (barring some *arcane ammo), it is not something to be sneered at, because the blunt force trauma through a vest without a hard plate is still massive.

Yeah, you have to step up to a level 3 to be safe from a ‘hot’ .357 load.

Or, if you are going for penetration rather than BFT, there are a couple of smaller caliber , quite concealable, handgun rounds one could consider, even against level 3.

*That was a test too.

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 3:38 PM

Cleombrotus on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

Actually, it’s more accurate to accept that there are some scenarios where having a weapon will do no good, then it is to believe there aren’t.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:30 PM

Are all of your arguments going to be demonstrable logic fallacies?

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 3:38 PM

Actually, it’s more accurate to accept that there are some scenarios where having a weapon will do no good, then it is to believe there aren’t.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:30 PM

Who cares? And how do you know that anyway? No one knows that bcs there is no way to evaluate a situation for both.
It’s not a matter of accepting it will do no good.
Don’t you think it is more accurate to concede it’s always good to be prepared no matter what?
If it isn’t, then roll over & play dead or stick your head in the sand & just give up.
For heaven’s sake this is one of the dumbest arguments I’ve seen here in a while.

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:39 PM

I disagree with the idea that talking about gun laws in the wake of the shooting is somehow illegitimate. If a plane had flown into the theater, we’d be talking about air safety; if it had burned to the ground, we’d talk about fire safety.

So we’re impulsively reactive to everything instead of taking a sensible, logical, proactive view to these issues? Typical liberal.

The fact that murderous psychopaths seem to have pretty easy access to guns raises legitimate issues that ought to be discussed when someone uses a gun to commit mass murder.

The fact that 99.9% of gun owners killed nobody yesterday is far more legitimate.

That being said, I think you guys are pretty safe. Not only does the NRA have most swing-district Democrats terrified, I can assure you that gun control is not an issue on which most of us libs spend a whole lot of time.

urban elitist on July 22, 2012 at 2:07 PM

Smart, then.

MadisonConservative on July 22, 2012 at 3:40 PM

First, the G.I. Joe crack wasn’t even directed at you, so once again you’re lying.

Actually, since the COWARD had on full body armor from head to toe, there’s a really high likelihood that anyone who tried to protect themselves would have died and been unsuccessful.

Nonsense.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 1:09 PM

Really? I’d love to hear you explain why G.I. Joe.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 1:24 PM

Here is an important tip. When spouting nonsense on page 2, it is important to remember the nonsense you spouted on page 1.

Secondly, this is the FOURTH time in just the last few minutes you have personally insulted me. Again, that lack of self control belies that you are not who you say you are.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM

I do not suffer fools of your ilk gladly. Perhaps it is a weakness.

But as a gesture of conciliation I will offer another piece of advice. When you find yourself in a hole, quit digging.

Please don’t go away mad. Just go away.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 3:41 PM

Oh crap the mass murderer is wearing body armor.
Might as well sit patiently and wait your turn to get shot.
/

Kenosha Kid on July 22, 2012 at 3:27 PM

That’s what they should have done on Flight 93. They were gonna die anyway so what was the damned point of resisting?//////////////

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:41 PM

And do please explain that terminology, “concealed carry caliber”. That is a new one on me, and I’m sure the answer will be just as well-informed as the rest of your remarks.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 3:24 PM

The most common CC calibers are .380, 9mm, .40, and .45.

Marginal rounds against someone trained and wearing body armor but if he wasn’t disciplined it could have bought precious seconds. Most people lose their sh*t a little when they are shot, even it is non fatal.

CorporatePiggy on July 22, 2012 at 3:42 PM

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 3:41 PM

Nicely done.
It was obvious who the GI JOe comment was directed at.

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:42 PM

Actually, it’s more accurate to accept that there are some scenarios where having a weapon will do no good, then it is to believe there aren’t.

KMC1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:30 PM

Actually, it’s more accurate to accept that if you don’t have a weapon, you have no chance to affect the outcome. If you have a weapon, you have some chance.

Which is the logical decision?

MadisonConservative on July 22, 2012 at 3:43 PM

Shooting suspect gun club membership rejected

AURORA, Colo. (AP) — Aurora shooting suspect James Holmes applied to join a Colorado gun range but never became a member after the owner became concerned over his “bizarre” message and behavior.

Owner Glenn Rotkovich says Holmes emailed an application to join the Lead Valley Range in Byers on June 25 and there were no overt warning signs in that form.

Holmes said he was not a user of illegal drugs or a convicted felon, so Rotkovich followed up by calling Holmes’ apartment to invite him to a mandatory orientation the following week.

Rotkovich got Holmes’ answering machine and says “it was bizarre – guttural, freakish at best.”

Rotkovich left two other messages but eventually told his staff to watch for Holmes at the July 1 orientation and not to accept him into the club.

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:44 PM

if he wasn’t disciplined it could have bought precious seconds. Most people lose their sh*t a little when they are shot, even it is non fatal.

CorporatePiggy on July 22, 2012 at 3:42 PM

And as you know, this was the point all along.
When people are carrying a weapon, they are on guard. They are not looking for trouble.
But they will more than likely recognize it when it happens.
Like my horse analogy earlier.
My horse is 17 yo. I trust him with my life.
But anything can happen. He could spook (like he did at some beehives the other day, totally unexpected), & yet, I was ready & handle the situation bcs I am always on guard.
I am always on guard everywhere I go.
I am always watching people & listening to conversations, watching body language, etc.
I’m not paranoid. It’s just how I naturally am.
I don’t trust anybody or anything.
And I have always been able to avoid dangerous situations.

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM

And yeah, while a .45 is not a good penetrator

LegendHasIt on July 22, 2012 at 3:38 PM

Automobiles and trains wont as a general rule penetrate you either, but you don’t want to get hit by one traveling at 60 mph either. The 21,000 pounds per square inch impact of a .45 slug will break your ribs even in a level 3 vest. 2 rounds center mass from a .45 at 25 feet even in a level 3 vest will knock you unconscious. Unless your level three vest has a boron-carbide plate in it and if it does, those 2 .45 slugs are still going to cause you to have a pretty bad day.

SWalker on July 22, 2012 at 3:46 PM

Police reported that the perp was well-armored with full torso, groin and neck protection, and a ballistic helmet. Didn’t mention the manufacturer, but until more info is disclosed it looks like he was well protected.

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Isa id yesterday, and saying it again. Shooter’s bank account record must be carefully back tracked, that money he spent on arming himself, booby traps, etc. was not small chunk and came from somewhere. No way in hell he was able to organize this whole thing just by himself, booby traps at the least were probably taught to him by someone.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 3:46 PM

Local gun shop yesterday I stopped by had a line at the cash register. This in a city that usually has almost no customers in retail stores.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 3:47 PM

The most common CC calibers are .380, 9mm, .40, and .45.

CorporatePiggy on July 22, 2012 at 3:42 PM

Yeah, but that doesn’t make them “CC” calibers. Plenty of people carry compact 10MM, 357, 357SIG, and various +P or +P+ variants. All of those have various characteristics that can make them potentially more effective against body armor. Sure, not necessarily a profound difference…but it could be just enough.

MadisonConservative on July 22, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:44 PM

Thanks for the information.
Good citizens being vigilant.
It is encouraging to hear.

Badger40 on July 22, 2012 at 3:47 PM

btw, this and the previous data I have posted is not intended to preach to the choir. It is for those liberals who I know will be drawn to this thread like a moth to a flame.

Flora Duh on July 22, 2012 at 3:35 PM

And you dear lady, will be setting them on fire.

I am in awe of your ability to immediately link to relevant content that proves your points. Bravo!

novaculus on July 22, 2012 at 3:50 PM

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