Free speech in Russia? Ask these punk rock girls.

posted at 5:01 pm on July 21, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

As far as Russia goes, we “tore down that wall.” And the Russians have been occasionally putting on public entertainment spectacles which, on the surface, bear some resemblance to elections. So is freedom ringing in the home of our old cold war nemesis? Freedom of speech doesn’t seem to be, particularly if you’re a member of a certain punk rock band, the name of which I won’t type in here myself.

Three members of female punk group Pussy Riot who derided President Vladimir Putin in a protest in Moscow’s main cathedral had their spell in jail extended by six months on Friday in what their lawyers called a show trial dictated by the Kremlin.

The women, who have been held in pre-trial custody for almost five months, face up to seven years in jail on charges of hooliganism for storming the altar in multi-coloured masks to sing a “punk prayer” to the Virgin Mary to “Throw Putin Out!”

For the time being, I’m just going to assume they really like cats. Who doesn’t like cats?

The original actions of the band members were undoubtedly offensive to some of the Russians in the cathedral – and obviously to the government as well – but the resulting punishment should come as a shock to most Americans. They’ve already spent more time behind bars before even getting a full trial than anyone in the US would get as full punishment for something like this. And I have a feeling that Putin’s folks are far less upset about the sacrilegious nature of the protest than the message they were putting out.

Putin is still holding Russia in an iron grip, either directly or through his puppets. And while they put on a pretty good show for the international media, not much has changed in terms of day to day life for regular Russian citizens. (Though for the well heeled and politically well connected, there are some millionaires being made these days.) But freedom of speech? I’m afraid that’s still a fantasy for Russians.


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Yea if you’re gonna level that charge how about an actual media source from a credible media outlet we can source check. Now some opposition members blog or web page

Rattl3r on July 22, 2012 at 12:02 AM

There was one city that had more votes cast than the number people residing there but I can’t remember where I read it.

You can read all about the fraud right here.
Putin claims victory in Russia election – Sunday 4 March

Lots of nice picture of Putin for you to drool over.

JPeterman on July 22, 2012 at 12:23 AM

And since this is about punk rock girls:

Punk rock girl
Give me a chance
Punk rock girl
Let’s go slam dance
We’ll dress like Minnie Pearl
Just you and me punk rock girl

We went to Phillie Pizza Company
And we ordered some hot tea
The waiter said no, we only have it iced
So we jumped up on the table and shouted anarchy
And someone played a Beach Boys song on the jukebox
It it was “California Dreamin”
So we started screamin
On such a winter’s day

TABoLK on July 22, 2012 at 12:24 AM

Here you only need to watch 1:17 of this

Truth

More Truth

Yet More Truth

I’ll at least give your link a read since I can’t speak ill of the Guardian

Rattl3r on July 22, 2012 at 12:33 AM

The original actions of the band members were undoubtedly offensive to some of the Russians in the cathedral – and obviously to the government as well – but the resulting punishment should come as a shock to most Americans. They’ve already spent more time behind bars before even getting a full trial than anyone in the US would get as full punishment for something like this. And I have a feeling that Putin’s folks are far less upset about the sacrilegious nature of the protest than the message they were putting out.

Who cares, they deserve the punishment for the sacrilegious nature of their protest… the religiously minded may find it easier in Putin’s Russia than in Obama’s and the left’s America.

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 12:39 AM

One of UFC fighters wehn to Moscow for a fight, early this year. Was beaten up pretty badly and lost, ended up with a few broken bones and a stay at local hospital.

I think you now know where this is going :-) Yes, upon leaving hospital he stated, ON CAMERA, that now he understands what HusseinCare is all about and what it will mean to all of us once implemented. He now is a card carrying member of “Defeat HusseinCare” movement :-)

Even Russians found this amusing enough to show on TV since they know what “government run health care” really means.

riddick on July 21, 2012 at 11:23 PM

I fallow MMA extremely closely(I even buy web PPVs from minor organizations), and I have no idea WTH you are talking about.

There hasn’t been a UFC event in Moscow… and there have been no big UFC fighters in Russia recently.

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 12:42 AM

Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love.

TABoLK on July 22, 2012 at 12:50 AM

So we have the government of Russia standing with the church over a bunch of revolutionary leftists and we as conservatives are complaining? What is it? Opposite Day?

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 2:17 AM

Who cares, they deserve the punishment for the sacrilegious nature of their protest…
ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 12:39 AM

Punishment for sacreligious acts ought to be left up to God, not the State.

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM

Unlike the days of the soviets, the church in today’s Russia is part of the power structure that maintains Putin. The church there is rather powerful, quite wealthy and engaging in all kinds of business bolstered by various privileges. At least from afar it seems more concerned about power and money than the souls of the flock it should be tending. I surmise this was the reason for the venue of the protest.

Given that Putin is responsible for curtailing in Russia all kinds of freedom from basic civil liberties to economic, vehemently opposes US foreign policy at every turn in particular as concerns Iran and Syria, is a threat to US allies, why would any conservative support him?

kittysaidwoof on July 22, 2012 at 8:07 AM

So we have the government of Russia standing with the church over a bunch of revolutionary leftists and we as conservatives are complaining? What is it? Opposite Day?

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 2:17 AM

What is it? Clueless Day?

Do you approve of extremely unreasonable sentences for disturbing the peace, simply because the disturbance was politically motivated?

You are writing in behalf of leftists as well. Or do you think Putin is Reaganesque?

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 8:08 AM

I fallow MMA extremely closely(I even buy web PPVs from minor organizations), and I have no idea WTH you are talking about.

There hasn’t been a UFC event in Moscow… and there have been no big UFC fighters in Russia recently.

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 12:42 AM

This is probably the incident to which riddick is referring:

[http://www.mmabay.co.uk]:
jeff-monson-reveals-he-was-sewn-together-at-a-russian-hospital-by-something-that-resembled-chicken-wire

Cloture on July 22, 2012 at 8:40 AM

the russian church in bed with putin. kinda reminds me of the catholics here. didnt work out so well for the catholics. too bad. hopefully the russian “church” will have the same fate. when putin tires of their useful idiot utility.

t8stlikchkn on July 22, 2012 at 8:42 AM

You are writing in behalf of leftists as well. Or do you think Putin is Reaganesque?

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 8:08 AM

No Putin ain’t Reaganesque but that’s as far as people like you think. Do you think that most the people that oppose Putin and the current government is all about freedom and liberty? Everything is black and white to us, just like the asinine notion most “conservatives” still have that spreading democracy in the Middle East is a good thing, you don’t look past what worked here. All while dismissing the idea that all people aren’t the same. Putin and the current system in Russia may be sh*t but it doesn’t change the fact that the leftist youth over there are worse. I don’t give a flying f*ck about free speech in Russia if that speech advocates turning back the clock to Russia being a leftist mecca that brought nothing but destruction and headaches for the rest of the world.
Kneejerk reactionaries, that’s all we are. Why do we care about Russian free speech? I care about a Russia that isn’t a threat to us.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 9:00 AM

The original actions of the band members were undoubtedly offensive to some of the Russians in the cathedral

Really? Just some?

BL@KBIRD on July 22, 2012 at 9:09 AM

“For the time being, I’m just going to assume they really like cats. Who doesn’t like cats?” – Jazz

Well, “Barack Kardashian” just green-lighted the military to make a foppish spectacle of themselves and, in turn, what USED to be “This man’s Army”.
The moron factor of American voters is apparently limitless.
Who does ØbaMaØ think he’s fooling?

As for Mad Vlad Putín, he’s just doing the same thing as his Thugocracy predecessors.
Once upon a time, a REAL American President called them out. They folded.
It’s long past time for another POTUS with testicular fortitude. Sadly, the GOP has none.
~(Ä)~

Karl Magnus on July 22, 2012 at 9:38 AM

Do you approve of extremely unreasonable sentences for disturbing the peace, simply because the disturbance was politically motivated?
You are writing in behalf of leftists as well. Or do you think Putin is Reaganesque?

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 8:08 AM

No Putin ain’t Reaganesque but that’s as far as people like you think. Do you think that most the people that oppose Putin and the current government is all about freedom and liberty?
lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 9:00 AM

Of course not.
It’s leftists who want free speech vs. leftists in power who don’t want it.
You’re siding with the latter.

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 9:38 AM

I don’t give a flying ____ about free speech in Russia if that speech advocates turning back the clock to Russia being a leftist mecca that brought nothing but destruction and headaches for the rest of the world.
Kneejerk reactionaries, that’s all we are. Why do we care about Russian free speech? I care about a Russia that isn’t a threat to us.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 9:00 AM

First of all, no one’s calling for an invasion, OK?

Second, Russia is a threat to us, though certainly not imminent. They have tons of nukes that are probably still pointed at us.
They are the also badguys in several international dramas in their region.

The revolutionaries, if somehow they were to take over (they won’t), might turn out just as bad.
But that doesn’t make Putie-poot’s thuggish behavior OK.

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 9:45 AM

The revolutionaries, if somehow they were to take over (they won’t), might turn out just as bad.
But that doesn’t make Putie-poot’s thuggish behavior OK.

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 9:45 AM

It’s similar to who was worse: Stalin or Kruschev?
Only on Nikki’s side: Kruschev didn’t murder millions of his own innocent countrymen.
(or waste one million+ Russian soldiers taking Berlin)
The ideology hasn’t changed one bit, just morphed into a finance-based (read: bribes) Oligarchy.

~(Ä)~

Karl Magnus on July 22, 2012 at 10:00 AM

The revolutionaries, if somehow they were to take over (they won’t), might turn out just as bad.
But that doesn’t make Putie-poot’s thuggish behavior OK.

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 9:45 AM

Good grief, it wouldn’t be just as bad, it would be worse. Do you think the old Communist regime and the Russia we have today as “just as bad”? Unbelievable.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 11:05 AM

The idea that these young women are some kind of revolutionaries in the vein of bolsheviks is ludicrous. They were protesting for free speech and democracy, things that are sorely missing in Russia. I’ve no idea what their political aspirations are otherwise. Maybe they’re pro free market fiscal conservatives? In the late 80s punk rock was a common vehicle for youth striving for freedom and quite a few of the punk rockers then were actually today’s pro free market fiscal conservatives. Unfortunately it was not this crowd that got to power in Russia.

In the long run, democracy in the middle-east would benefit everybody. The big question is, will the Arab spring lead to democracy or will the Muslim brotherhood and their ilk manage to hijack the region.

kittysaidwoof on July 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM

Umm, the communists are Putin’s loyal opposition. The only other major party he tolerates for the sake of nostalgia. These girls are definitely not communists. They might be some kind of anarchists, but most likely their chief political concern is lack of freedom. Something most freedom-loving people should be able to relate to.

kittysaidwoof on July 22, 2012 at 11:25 AM

OH…I see.

Kind of like how Christian Conservative rockers are treated here.

Laus Deo

deedtrader on July 22, 2012 at 1:16 PM

The idea that these young women are some kind of revolutionaries in the vein of bolsheviks is ludicrous. They were protesting for free speech and democracy, things that are sorely missing in Russia. I’ve no idea what their political aspirations are otherwise.

kittysaidwoof on July 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM

They emerged from the anarchist group Voina.

Every activist of the group has his/her own philosophy. In the political aspect we, of course, sympathize with anarchists, socialists and in general with all left-wing radicals. But first of all we are artists – not politicians or philosophers. And using our artistic methods we destruct the outdated repressive-patriarchal symbols and ideologies.

Today activism is the only form of the radical left-wing art

Nowadays, when even hope for democracy in Russia is ruined, painting flowers and putty cats or making any other “pure” art, lacking a socio-political content, is to support the right-wing authorities. The symbol of anarchy – a skull-and-bones – has to be painted right at the Russia’s parliament building.

They were protesting for free speech and democracy

Thats what the Muslim Brotherhood was doing in Egypt as well. It doesn’t mean what you think it means.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 1:30 PM

In the long run, democracy in the middle-east would benefit everybody. The big question is, will the Arab spring lead to democracy or will the Muslim brotherhood and their ilk manage to hijack the region.

kittysaidwoof on July 22, 2012 at 11:21 AM

I’ll not comment on the first part, sharrukin already did. Let’s address the second. How will democracy benefit everybody if what the people want is a return to strict Islam via the Muslim Brotherhood? Rigid Islamic rule and the Muslim Brotherhood isn’t hijacking anything, it’s what the people want.
Think for a second instead of following the liberal/neo-conservative idiocy being pushed by everyone. You hear the words free speech and democracy and you start clapping like a trained seal. Ever consider the times when those ideals are in direct conflict with us?

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 1:46 PM

Yea if you’re gonna level that charge how about an actual media source from a credible media outlet we can source check. Now some opposition members blog or web page

Rattl3r on July 22, 2012 at 12:02 AM

You are even more of an idiot than thought at first, thanks for confirming.

Also, as you claimed as well, “travel” and actually “living” somewhere are two extremely different experiences. You obviously have abolutely NO FRIGGING IDEA about the subject, interesting how you backed down from 2 very generous offers to make your “wet dream” happen. I am stating once again, and I truly meant it, I WILL BUY YOU a one way ticket as long as we get rid of your sorry azz, you are more than welcome to live in the progressive liberal place of your choosing.

The “charges” I posted, are FACTS, too bad your Communist News Network have not reported them. Learn Russian, follow news media there for some time and then open your mouth and join adult conversation.

Liberalism is more dangerous than dementia, it seems.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:06 PM

JPeterman,

To your inquiry about religion in USSR and then in today’s Russia.

When Stalin took over, religion was once of the “reasons” used to prosecute people. Yes, many a church was burned/destroyed, those remaining were converted to some sort of public use place. In some cities, way outside “central regions”, people still practiced, although secretly and in very small numbers as every child was indoctrinated into atheism from early age. In larger cities some churches and synagogues stood and brave people attended, making an easier task for KGB to keep lists and use it against those they deemed “dangerous to society”. But for the most part churches were far and in between.

City I was born in, founded in mid 13th century and at cross roads of Europe (in the middle of trading route back then) had pretty much every religious denomination houses of worship, well maintained for centuries. In 1939 it was taken over by USSR and was probably the most anti communist city around, it took communist well into late 1950s to quell local resistance, something no one in the West heard. All places of worship were left intact by the communists since they knew destroying them would only create further drawn out resistance campaign. They did burn the synagogue in 1960, which stood there since 14th century, under the pretense of an “accident” and a promise to rebuild it. They never did. But in large part, many in the city were religious and able to attend, one of just a few cities in USSR back in the day.

In today’s Russia, religion is the “new found” fashion, I can’t call it any other way given what church is doing. The few priests, true believers, who dare to speak against the religious leaders abusing their standing are “dealt with”, mostly “shot under strange circumstances”. Religious leaders are now part of Putin’s inner circle, getting best lands anywhere they feel like, under the pretense of “eminent domain”. Opulence of places of worship is on Vatican level, leaders compete in showing off their $100K watches, $500K cars, ridiculously expensive jewelry, etc. Yes, a good portion of the population attends church these days and yet it is no more than “fashion” for many, not sure how best to explain it.

In sum, Russian Orthodox Church is in bed with Putin and help him at every turn.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:22 PM

There was one city that had more votes cast than the number people residing there but I can’t remember where I read it.

You can read all about the fraud right here.
Putin claims victory in Russia election – Sunday 4 March

Lots of nice picture of Putin for you to drool over.

JPeterman on July 22, 2012 at 12:23 AM

He’s absolutely clueless on the subject of anything Russia. And since he still refusing our generous offer to make his “liberal wet dream” happen, free of charge, I can only assume he is talking out of his azz, same as some other liberal arrivals on the site.

Sunday papers tell no lie!

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:32 PM

I fallow MMA extremely closely(I even buy web PPVs from minor organizations), and I have no idea WTH you are talking about.

There hasn’t been a UFC event in Moscow… and there have been no big UFC fighters in Russia recently.

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 12:42 AM

Not sure if “fallow” was actually meant on contenxt or not, but same as our other self proclaimed resident on Russia, you obviously missed Monson-Emelianenko fight in Moscow and Monson’s stay in the hospital.

Communist News of America failed to report on that hospital stay, would not fit well with their zeal to mass market HusseinCare with prior supporter of Manchurian speaking out against his key accomplishment.

But again, thanks for playing.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:36 PM

Is one of them named Sheena?

Akzed on July 22, 2012 at 2:42 PM

A vicious, tyrannical, murderous ex-KGB thug like Putin being defended on HA by some so-called Conservatives?

What can we hope for next here – some praise for Chavez’s genuine concern for the poor in Venezuela, or for Hitler, who brought some pride back to Germany, or for Mussolini, who got those darned trains to run on time, or for Che Guevera, who helped eliminate agitating capitalists in Cuba?

Remember Alexander Litvinenko’s fate at the hands of Putin’s gov’t? Those traitorous, mouthy, disruptive Pussy Riot punks are lucky Putin hasn’t yet had them punished likewise, as they so richly deserve…

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 2:53 PM

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 1:30 PM

Still have no idea what you are talking about nor where you get your news on the subject. EVERY political opposition leader in Russia is in support of P_ussy Riot, and no, I have no idea why you keep calling them anarchist. They are not in any sense unless you call speaking out on women’s rights and freedom of speech “anarchist”.

Do you understand that state prosecution accused P_ussy Riot in complicity of 9/11?

Do you understand that state prosecution accused and was able to lengthen their jail stay for “murder of a muslim mufti” in Kazan’, something these girls are not even remotely near?

Do you understand that police is now arresting people for being supporters of P_ussy Riot? And nothing else.

Do you understand that many religious people are in suport of P_ussy Riot?

Do you understand that Putin, as part and parcel of decades old religious suppression in USSR, is way more guilty when it comes to church and religion than anything these girls can every do to “bismirch” religion? And yet he is not on trial here, religious sell outs kiss his azz and go after those that have nothing to do with anything.

Sounds like you are a religious person. Great. And I really mean it.

But I hope you stop defending Putin and Co. and face the reality that nothing in Russia has changed, its the same old USSR with a bit more “freedom” given as long as you “share” with the government. P_ussy Riots have never bombed government buildings, a la Ayers, P_ussy Riot never intimidated voters, a la Black Panthers, nor robbed banks a la Angela Davis. I can go and on. The only thing P_ussy Riot did was draw attention of the West to the plight of people of Russia.

Funny how all of this has been happening for some time now and all of a sudden there is an outcry in the West from those thinking that P_ussy Riot disrespected the church. By whose description? Communist News of America? Only because they dared to have their protest (singing a song!, how dare they?) in a cathedral, no property damage done, NOTHING ELSE SAVE FOR SINGING!!!

So, I am asking again, What do you propose those in Russia wanting and fighting for freedom of speech and freedom in general do to draw attention to their plight?

Strangely enough, even when they draw attention, they are the ones being accused, never Putin and Co.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:55 PM

A vicious, tyrannical, murderous ex-KGB thug like Putin being defended on HA by some so-called Conservatives?

What can we hope for next here – some praise for Chavez’s genuine concern for the poor in Venezuela, or for Hitler, who brought some pride back to Germany, or for Mussolini, who got those darned trains to run on time, or for Che Guevera, who helped eliminate agitating capitalists in Cuba?

Remember Alexander Litvinenko’s fate at the hands of Putin’s gov’t? Those traitorous, mouthy, disruptive P~ssy Riot punks are lucky Putin hasn’t yet had them punished likewise, as they so richly deserve…

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:01 PM

Still have no idea what you are talking about nor where you get your news on the subject.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:55 PM

From an interview with Voina members themselves.

Every activist of the group has his/her own philosophy. In the political aspect we, of course, sympathize with anarchists, socialists and in general with all left-wing radicals. But first of all we are artists – not politicians or philosophers. And using our artistic methods we destruct the outdated repressive-patriarchal symbols and ideologies.

Today activism is the only form of the radical left-wing art

Nowadays, when even hope for democracy in Russia is ruined, painting flowers and putty cats or making any other “pure” art, lacking a socio-political content, is to support the right-wing authorities. The symbol of anarchy – a skull-and-bones – has to be painted right at the Russia’s parliament building.

And Putty Riot…

In a statement regarding the Prayer, members of the band explained:

[W]e needed to sing it at the altar, and not on the street in front of the temple, that is, in a place where women’s entrance is strictly forbidden. The fact that the ROC is promoting very conservative values, which do not fit into such concepts as freedom of choice and the formation of political, gender and sexual identity, critical thinking, multiculturalism, attention to contemporary culture. We think the Orthodox Church does not currently have enough of all the above phenomena.

So are you now going to tell me that Voina and Putty Riot are in fact lying about who they are, and also lying when they say conservatism is their enemy?

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:11 PM

Still have no idea what you are talking about nor where you get your news on the subject.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 2:55 PM

From an interview with Voina members themselves.

Every activist of the group has his/her own philosophy. In the political aspect we, of course, sympathize with anarchists, socialists and in general with all left-wing radicals. But first of all we are artists – not politicians or philosophers. And using our artistic methods we destruct the outdated repressive-patriarchal symbols and ideologies.

Today activism is the only form of the radical left-wing art

Nowadays, when even hope for democracy in Russia is ruined, painting flowers and putty cats or making any other “pure” art, lacking a socio-political content, is to support the right-wing authorities. The symbol of anarchy – a skull-and-bones – has to be painted right at the Russia’s parliament building.

And Putty Riot… [can't post the link]

In a statement regarding the Prayer, members of the band explained:

[W]e needed to sing it at the altar, and not on the street in front of the temple, that is, in a place where women’s entrance is strictly forbidden. The fact that the ROC is promoting very conservative values, which do not fit into such concepts as freedom of choice and the formation of political, gender and sexual identity, critical thinking, multiculturalism, attention to contemporary culture. We think the Orthodox Church does not currently have enough of all the above phenomena.

So are you now going to tell me that Voina and Putty Riot are in fact lying about who they are, and also lying when they say conservatism is their enemy?

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:13 PM

A vicious, tyrannical, murderous ex-KGB thug like Putin being defended on HA by some so-called Conservatives?

Nice strawman, nobody on here is defending Putin but we ain’t supporting any leftist revolutionaries just to satisfy some kneejerk reaction.
No wonder conservative foreign policy is so f*cked up, you people can’t distinguish levels of evil. I ask again, who cares if Russia squashes the same type of leftists that ushered in a communist regime that screwed up the world for decades? I could give a sh*t less.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 3:16 PM

You are leaving much out, Jazz.

Russian police raid opposition leaders’ homes ahead of anti-Putin rally

There is no freedom in Russia and anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

Putin is KGB to the core. Once KGB, always KGB.

JPeterman on July 21, 2012 at 5:17 PM

“Putin is not acting as a Jeffersonian democrat. We all know that Putin is creating us trouble in many parts of the world… And when I looked at Putin’s eyes I saw 3 letters: a ‘K’, a ‘G’ and a ‘B’”, said McCain.

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:17 PM

Oh, in regard to gas supply to Europe dust up, that’s the only point I disagree on with JPeterman.

Yes, supply was stopped, months after arguing with Ukraine that a good amount of gas has been “vanishing” in the transmission pipe line, what Europe was receiving was way less than entered Ukraine.

I know that many “experts” in the West now accuse Ukraine of mistreating ex minister and person in charge of gas and oil deals with Russia, Julia Timoshenko. She has been tried and sentenced for her misdeeds and theft of gas and oil, difficult as it may be for some to face the truth. But that gas supply, in great numbers, certainly vanished on her guard and she could never explain where to (never mind her daughter living in a huge, expensive house in center of London, attending best schools there and then marrying a rich kid with her multi-million “dowry” along, all of this on a simple, public official salary worth nothing in real world).

And yet, West, as it usually does in its zeal to “support freedom” is accusing Ukraine of false accusations against Timoshenko. Same as we did with Chechnya and other places, all misguided in one way or another.

Perhaps a history lesson is in order?

Do you guys know much about history in that region of the word? About Ukraine, ON PAPER, selling out their freedom in exchange of protection from Poles, in early 1600s? How about Georgia doing same for protection from Ottoman Empire? FINLAND, for protection from Sweden?

All agreements ON PAPER? And yet each and every one somehow “forgot” what they WILLINGLY agreed to, actually taking first steps in the process? So, Russians putting their lives on the line and getting rid of these states’ enemies and protecting them was a good deal, but once that freedom was secured the deals somehow are no longer in force? Nice… Not sure what “agreement” means to you, but I know what it means to me.

I do not love “ethnic” Russians and Ukrainians, far from it, no Jew could nor should, but I can’t deny that Russia does have a claim on all of these lands, historically speaking.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 3:20 PM

Nice strawman, nobody on here is defending Putin but we ain’t supporting any leftist revolutionaries just to satisfy some kneejerk reaction.
No wonder conservative foreign policy is so f*cked up, you people can’t distinguish levels of evil. I ask again, who cares if Russia squashes the same type of leftists that ushered in a communist regime that screwed up the world for decades? I could give a sh*t less.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 3:16 PM

Let me tell you, I’m always amused whenever I see apathetic people get defensive, p!ssy, and abusive over something they supposedly weren’t saying – know what I mean? :)

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

You are the one going to bat for left-wing revolutionary anarchists. We have seen this movie before with the Bolsheviks and we know how it ends.

Putin’s not a nice guy. The Czar wasn’t a nice guy either, nor was the Shah of Iran, or Mubarak of Egypt.

Stop trying to shoot yourself in the foot son, cause its gonna hurt.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:28 PM

Let me tell you, I’m always amused whenever I see apathetic people get defensive, p!ssy, and abusive over something they supposedly weren’t saying – know what I mean? :)

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 3:21 PM

Nobody was defending Putin, you lying POS.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 3:34 PM

So are you now going to tell me that Voina and Putty Riot are in fact lying about who they are, and also lying when they say conservatism is their enemy?

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:13 PM

Are you kidding? I usually like and respect, agree with your posts. And yet, I still have no idea what the hell you are arguing here.

What does Volna have to do with P_ussy Riot?

And after reading the article you supplied, care to point out to me just what is “radical” about the Volna? You mean a dick painted on the bridge? Or effigies in a supermarket? OK, radical in terms of intolerance. Care to tell me how may were injured in the process? Or died?

They exercised freedom of speech, views that you and I do not agree with, but nonetheless JUST SPEECH last time I checked. Wow, how radical is that?

You know what radical is? Taking hostages in a theatre and wanting to execute them. Killing, raping and pillaging native Russians on Russian territory, with impunity under the guise of religious freedom and huge bribes, yes, sometimes to that same Patriarch Kirill who is also at the center of P_ussy Riot scandal. Maybe, just maybe members of P_ussy Riot don’t like to be snatched off the street into a car, taken to some place and raped for hours and days, maybe others like that, but I know I wouldn’t. Yes, all Chechen Muslims and Christian Georgian, all very religious.

Do you understand what really happens to good looking girls on streets of Russia, in open daylight, with impunity?

Now, tell me, who is radical? Volna or Chechens/Georgians?

You gusy know so little about what’s really going on in Russia, and yet you read some rag interview about “radical” group and still have no notion of what “radical” really means in this case. SPEAKING OUT is not RADICAL, KILLING, RAPING and PILLAGING is RADICAL.

Seems our notions of what radical is is radically different.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 3:37 PM

Seems our notions of what radical is is radically different.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 3:37 PM

What a load of crap, these women aren’t protesting rape and murder “under the guise of religious freedom”, they protesting to end the traditional moral society that Christianity brings. Don’t pretend otherwise.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 3:45 PM

What we got here now is a bunch of Hot Air commenters that are all butthurt that these women are just a bunch of radical leftists and not some darlings of freedom. So now it’s say anything to protect that image. Typical.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 3:52 PM

What does Volna have to do with P_ussy Riot?

Putty Riot emerged from the anarchist group Voina.

They exercised freedom of speech, views that you and I do not agree with, but nonetheless JUST SPEECH last time I checked. Wow, how radical is that?

Thats what the leftists say here as well when they break into churches and do the same sort of garbage.

Seems our notions of what radical is is radically different.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 3:37 PM

And those peacful, freedom loving Muslim Brotherhood folks in Egypt just want Democracy. Really they do! /

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Nobody was defending Putin, you lying POS.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 3:34 PM

I‘m the hysterical, defensive one between us, aren’t I? You don’t know what “projection” is, do you? ROFL!!!

Thank you for continuing to entertain, you apathetic, unwitting clown! :)

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 4:07 PM

And those peacful, freedom loving Muslim Brotherhood folks in Egypt just want Democracy. Really they do! /

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

You are still dodging my qiestions. And pointers.

That’s a stretch, to link an article about Volna, to a group that has nothing to do with it.

P_ssy Riot have NEVER once killed, raped or maimed anyone. Not once. Haven’t even tried. (Neither did Volna, BTW, have no idea why this is so difficult for you to comprehend).

As opposed to you constant example, Muslim Brotherhood. Just when were Muslim Brotherhood’s protests “peaceful” and words only? You are comparing apples and oranges, have no idea how else to point out the obvious differences to you.

If you don’t agree with liberals in Congress, for exmple, do you propose we simply jail them? P_ussy Riot did NOTHING save for singing in a church. Wow, what a crime!!!

So, I ask gain, What is “radical” about P_ussy Riot singing in a church? When the state is trying them under false charges of complicity to 9/11, murder of a muslim religious cleric done BY SOMEONE OTHER THEY HAVE NEVER MET NOR KNOW, and other made up charges?

What does Muslim Brotherhood have to do with P_ussy Riot? You are making same “connection” here Russian government made, how interesting.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 4:17 PM

You are the one going to bat for left-wing revolutionary anarchists. We have seen this movie before with the Bolsheviks and we know how it ends.

Putin’s not a nice guy. The Czar wasn’t a nice guy either, nor was the Shah of Iran, or Mubarak of Egypt.

Stop trying to shoot yourself in the foot son, cause its gonna hurt.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 3:28 PM

LOL

That’s all I can reasonably do in response to your post and to your extremely foolish poo-pooing of what Putin is up to – I take you as respectably/seriously here as I do those who say that 0bamessiah was well-intentioned when he declared executive privilege over F&F… :)

Bizarro No. 1 on July 22, 2012 at 4:18 PM

That’s a stretch, to link an article about Volna, to a group that has nothing to do with it.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 4:17 PM

They were members of Voina.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 4:32 PM

They were members of Voina.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 4:32 PM

You still keep dodging my questions, so yes, you are clueless (to be mild).

EVEN IF they were and ARE members of Volna, which is doubtful since you keep failing to provide the link, what is RADICAL about them singing in a church? Interesting that I cannot find any articles in Russian media that link Volna and P_ussy Riot, your only “link” is some online rag you keep pointing to and even that has no mention of P_ussy Riot. How handy is that? Idiotic more likely, to be blunt, when making baseless accusations.

That is a bigot’s view, IMO. Only because they SANG in a church DOES NOT MAKE IT A CRIMINAL ACT and prosecution under MADE UP FALSE CHARGES.

Do you understand that members of Russian Church have asked for these 3 to be BURNED AT THE STAKE? As if tried under FALSE AND MADE UP CHARGES for singing in a church was not extreme punishment in itself? All by Putin’s government, same Putin who in his KGB days used to murder, main and send people to GULAG for practicing religion or speaking against the government.

Are you truly INSANE or just pretending to be?

Face the reality, for once. Unreal…

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM

Communist News of America failed to report on that hospital stay, would not fit well with their zeal to mass market HusseinCare with prior supporter of Manchurian speaking out against his key accomplishment.

But again, thanks for playing.

So you’re going to base your anecdote on Jeff Monsoon… a guy who got arrested for painting an Anarchist sign and came out to the Soviet National Anthem…

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 5:28 PM

EVEN IF they were and ARE members of Volna, which is doubtful since you keep failing to provide the link…

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM

EVEN IF they were and ARE members of Volna

In other words you couldn’t care less who they were, and yet I am supposed to hunt up a link so you can then say…I don’t care?

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/article/462447.html

Putty Riot emerged from a group of highly politicized artists called Voina, or War. That group, with factions in St. Petersburg and Moscow, existed more or less as one group until 2009, when internal friction caused it to split in two. The Moscow-based collective, a loose conglomeration of dozens of members, is nominally headed by Pyotr Verzilov, the husband of Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, a founding member of Putty Riot.

Nadezhda Tolokonnikova is also a member of Voina.

Here as well…

http://en.free-voina.org/post/11432689542

Let me guess…you don’t care.

Well I do.

Support radical left-wing anarchists and revolutionaries if you want to. As for me, when someone says they are my enemy and wish to destroy conservatism, I take them at their word.

Do you know who SAVAK was? There were stone cold bastards who did some very nasty things to anyone who opposed the Shah of Iran. Jimmy Carter thought they were mean so he supported the students in Iran who wanted freedom and Democracy. It didn’t end well.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 5:31 PM

Who cares, they deserve the punishment for the sacrilegious nature of their protest…
ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 12:39 AM

Punishment for sacreligious acts ought to be left up to God, not the State.

itsnotaboutme on July 22, 2012 at 8:03 AM

Who are we to tell the Russians that?

I can’t stand the hypocritical nature of lecturing the Russians on religious freedom while religious freedom is almost at it’s death kneel in the US. People need to open their eyes.

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 5:31 PM

When it comes to Russia, too many on the right are duped into becoming useful idiots.

ninjapirate on July 22, 2012 at 5:32 PM

Are you truly INSANE or just pretending to be?

Face the reality, for once. Unreal…

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM

No it’s you that’s insane, you don’t listen to anything, you stop the minute you heard someone’s free speech might have been infringed. You and half the other poster here think like a child. These women would love nothing better then the state to shut down a Christian church, to stop one the few moral stabilizers this world has left and you’re so stupid you think they are victims. You stand with people that wish to destroy one of the few things that are good and decent in Russian society, for what? Some asinine notion that free speech must be protected at all costs.
Despite what idiots like you think this is not the free speech our founders had in mind anymore then Muslims in our country spreading their rot was what they had in mind when they drafted the religious clause in The Constitution. You would understand that if you haven’t bought into the distorted liberal ideal of equality that infests everything and thought for yourself.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 5:48 PM

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 5:31 PM

You keep proving, time and again, how stupid you are. Each and every post on the subject. By using OPENLY COMMUNIST media and blogs as your “proof”.

Care to list any source, INDEPENDENT, yes, those do exist, Toto, as your “proof”.

I keep saying you’re full of it and you keep posting COMMUNIST PROPAGANDA, paid for by Putin and Russian Church.

I can list who knows how many PAGES of links to INDEPENDENT sources that directly contradict any and all BS you keep posting.

Too bad you don’t know Russian and base your stupid views on COMMUNIST rags.

THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO VOLNA, save for in COMMUNIST mind, as well Russian Church, brainwashing is passe even in Russia these days. Russian Chruch and what it is TODAY is not what any truly religious person should support. Even some members of Russian Church are openly against what it stand=s for today, main reason so many are EXTERMINATED by Putin and Co, on orders of the church.

Geez, you guys prove just how naive you are in believing anything coming out of COMMUNIST PRESS these days.

Stop reading and posting COMMUNIST CRAP.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:54 PM

No it’s you that’s insane, you don’t listen to anything, you stop the minute you heard someone’s free speech might have been infringed. You and half the other poster here think like a child. These women would love nothing better then the state to shut down a Christian church, to stop one the few moral stabilizers this world has left and you’re so stupid you think they are victims. You stand with people that wish to destroy one of the few things that are good and decent in Russian society, for what? Some asinine notion that free speech must be protected at all costs.
Despite what idiots like you think this is not the free speech our founders had in mind anymore then Muslims in our country spreading their rot was what they had in mind when they drafted the religious clause in The Constitution. You would understand that if you haven’t bought into the distorted liberal ideal of equality that infests everything and thought for yourself.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 5:48 PM

Oh another IDIOT, reading COMMUNIST propaganda. Learn RUSSIAN, read some INDEPENDENT news coming out of there in RUSSIAN, then you will gain the right to argue any carp you guys keep posting via links to COMMUNIST NEWS.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:56 PM

You keep proving, time and again, how stupid you are.

They have said in their own words who they are and you think I am stupid for believing them?

Stop reading and posting COMMUNIST CRAP.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:54 PM

You are the one who wants to attack churches and back socialist left-wing radicals.

sharrukin on July 22, 2012 at 5:59 PM

Oh another IDIOT, reading COMMUNIST propaganda. Learn RUSSIAN, read some INDEPENDENT news coming out of there in RUSSIAN, then you will gain the right to argue any carp you guys keep posting via links to COMMUNIST NEWS.

riddick on July 22, 2012 at 5:56 PM

That’s not refuting anything we’ve said, that’s just the rantings of a douche that got his ass handed to him. “Learn Russian and read some independent news”, that’s the best you have? That’s pathetic.

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 6:05 PM

lowandslow on July 22, 2012 at 5:48 PM

Well – I can’t endorse your thoughts on compromising free speech.

However, you are correct in that this punk rock band full of women are neo-feminists who are anti-religion, and probably anti-freedom of religion. They self describe themselves as either anarchists or leftist sooo …

They are no friends to us.

Then again – neither is Putin.

So what do you do when two groups of people YOU DON’T LIKE start up a cat fight?

Why … you grab a bag of popcorn and enjoy the show!!

HondaV65 on July 22, 2012 at 9:52 PM

a. Democracy does not mean that once popular movement gains power and can maintain it forever (Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia weren’t democracies even though at times their leadership enjoyed high popularity and they could have won even fair elections), but that there is a rule of law, protection of minorities and free speech and periodic chance to get rid of those in power once the people change their mind. Given time people tend to vote on self-interest, which means they prefer policies that increase prosperity. Militancy, jihad or even socialism do not increase prosperity thus they cannot survive long in a democracy. Muslim Brotherhood would be hijacking the Arab Spring if instead of instituting democracy it would supplant Mubarak and the rest of the dicators with their own autocratic regime.

b. When the Iron Curtain was broken down lots of countries were in a similar position as are many of the Arab countries today. The paths of many of these countries were widely divergent – some became stable democracies fairly quickly, some are still on the way, but struggling, some remained dictatorships. In almost all of these countries there were forces pulling into all directions and it was a matter of a number of factors as well as pure luck as to which country followed which path. I am sure that the majority of the population of each of the countries would have preferred to become a democracy.

c. Church in Russia is very different beast from what it is most elsewhere. It is not a mostly union of community based places of worship as they are in US, but rather a top-down semi-governmental institution akin to medieval times.

d. AFAIK and based on what is available on the internet, Voina is a group of anarchist artists. They haven’t been involved in terrorism and do not appear to propagate it directly or indirectly (unlike Muslim Brotherhood). I wouldn’t vote for them, but there are a few items in their agenda that I do agree with and can wholeheartedly support them on those items. These include the need for free speech and democracy.

e. Finland ask protection from Sweden?!? This has never happened. Russia beat Sweden in a war and took Finland without the Finns having any say in the matter. When Finns got a say in the matter they showed quite resolutely how they viewed things. The situation was basically the same with all the countries in the west. I agree that the situation in the caucasus was much more complicated.

kittysaidwoof on July 23, 2012 at 7:13 AM

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