Did Michelle Obama just make the Catholic Church argument against the HHS contraception mandate?

posted at 1:21 pm on June 29, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Yes she did, although I doubt she intended to do so.  In a speech today to a conference of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the First Lady explained her concept of citizenship by likening it to the ministry of Jesus.  Her explanation corroborates the same point that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops have been making for months about the intrusive nature of the HHS contraception mandate, emphasis mine:

“It’s kind of like church,” Obama said. “Our faith journey isn’t just about showing up on Sunday for a good sermon and good music and a good meal. It’s about what we do Monday through Saturday as well, especially in those quiet moments, when the spotlight’s not on us, and we’re making those daily choices about how to live our lives.

“We see that in the life of Jesus Christ. Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church,” she said. “He was out there fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day. He was out there spreading a message of grace and redemption to the least, the last, and the lost. And our charge is to find Him everywhere, every day by how we live our lives.”

Obama, who is not a regular churchgoer, said citizenship like the practice of faith is “not a once-a-week kind of deal.”

“Democracy is also an everyday activity,” she said. “And being an engaged citizen should once again be a daily part of our lives.”

Yes, indeed He was.  So do churches to this day, ministering to the sick and the poor, “the least, the last and the lost” that Mrs. Obama references here.  Furthermore, Jesus did not limit His ministry to just those disciples who followed Him, but ministered to many, including Romans, in the course of His evangelization.

However, her husband and Kathleen Sebelius don’t see it that way.  They only allow for activities within “the four walls of the church” to be classified as religious expression exempt from government regulation, and only that activity which excludes those other than believers as participants or recipients, too.  The USCCB and its allies in the Fortnight for Freedom campaign have repeatedly argued exactly as the First Lady does — that the provision of charity, education, and health care to the greater community is an integral component of religious expression, for Catholics and those of other denominations,  just as was Jesus’ ministry of healing, evangelization, and assistance to the poor.  In fact, Mrs. Obama makes that case as eloquently as I’ve seen it made during this debate.

Now that the First Lady has acknowledged that ministry is not limited to the four walls of the church and that it necessarily involves spreading the message of grace and redemption to more than just the choir, can we expect her husband and the Secretary of HHS reach the same conclusion?


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Gottcha !

Don L on June 29, 2012 at 1:24 PM

Rep Issa has posted the details of the wiretap applications

J_Crater on June 29, 2012 at 1:25 PM

Now that the First Lady has acknowledged that ministry is not limited to the four walls of the church and that it necessarily involves spreading the message of grace and redemption to more than just the choir, can we expect her husband and the Secretary of HHS reach the same conclusion?

No, because her real argument is that government should do the church’s job, no matter that it is man who creates that doctrine.

PastorJon on June 29, 2012 at 1:26 PM

Mr double down won’t get it

cmsinaz on June 29, 2012 at 1:26 PM

You’d think there’d be enough news today that Ed wouldn’t have to strain with a post like this.

red_herring on June 29, 2012 at 1:27 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

“Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church…”

A. This is a nonsensical statement.
B. Talk like this is always dangerous to a free people (because misapplication will follow).
C. Even if true, what the hell does this have to do with the function of government?

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:30 PM

Jcrater cant open up linky can ypu give a quick summary

cmsinaz on June 29, 2012 at 1:32 PM

The Catholic church is not going anywhere, Obama. You fight it at your peril.

txmomof6 on June 29, 2012 at 1:32 PM

Furthermore, Jesus did not limit His ministry to just those disciples who followed him, but ministered to many, including Romans, in the course of His evangelization.

On his terms. He didn’t treat gentiles as equals to Jews (Mt 15). And he forbade his disciples from ministering at all to gentiles in very clear terms… and nobody outside of the land of Israel(Mt 10).

This is why WWJD, without context, is a dangerous concept.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Michelle is mad and stupid, and “fruschtrated”.

If Obama loses she’ll eat rocks.

She’s already spitting snakes.

Schadenfreude on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church,” she said. “He was out there fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day.

That’s funny, because it was my understanding that within the Christian church Jesus is the power and the truth. Or did I miss something whilst sleeping through Sunday school?

Browncoatone on June 29, 2012 at 1:34 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

There’s also a difference between someone buying you something and someone telling you to buy it yourself.

CurtZHP on June 29, 2012 at 1:34 PM

“Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church…”

No, but he did limit it to Israel.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:34 PM

In a speech today to a conference of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the First Lady explained her concept of citizenship by likening it to the ministry of Jesus.

I seem to recall that this “church” once brought Fidel Castro to the pulpit. Ah, yes, a Communist and an atheist [forgive my redundancy], lecturing to the flock.

It appears that this “church” has a penchant for indulging Communists.

And, I don’t need Communists lecturing me about Jesus Christ.

Though shalt not steal. Thou shalt not covet … any thing that is thy neighbor’s.

The Communists step on these Commandments, with every action they take – and talking about Jesus Christ doesn’t alter that fact.

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 1:35 PM

So do churches to this day, ministering to the sick and the poor, “the least, the last and the lost” that Mrs. Obama references here. Furthermore, Jesus did not limit His ministry to just those disciples who followed him, but ministered to many, including Romans, in the course of His evangelization.

Jesus, Friend of Sinners Including dante and GoodLt–and me.

davidk on June 29, 2012 at 1:35 PM

And you were so sure that they would back off of this mandate Ed. Are you getting cynical yet? It’s almost my default setting.

Mord on June 29, 2012 at 1:35 PM

Like she believes in Jesus. How could you believe in God after 20 years of listening to Jeremiah Wrong tell you how shi++y your life is in America of all places. Besides, what do you need God for when your husband is “sort of God”.

http://www.fiscalwars.wordpress.com

stout77 on June 29, 2012 at 1:36 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

What if the law of the land compels us to do something we cannot in good conscience do because of our faith?

magicbeans on June 29, 2012 at 1:37 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

You’re right. You just successfully argued against Obamacare. Congratulations.

kingsjester on June 29, 2012 at 1:38 PM

Jesus established the Church. He never set foot inside of one, though. But far be it from me not to appreciate this gift from Michelle’s ignorance.

natasha333 on June 29, 2012 at 1:38 PM

You’d think there’d be enough news today that Ed wouldn’t have to strain with a post like this.

red_herring on June 29, 2012 at 1:27 PM | Delete | Delete and Ban

He’s not straining. Christians comprise 78% of America’s population…or didn’t you know that?

kingsjester on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

“We see that in the life of Jesus Christ. Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church,” she said.

Were there Churches during the lifetime of Jesus Christ ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

On his terms. He didn’t treat gentiles as equals to Jews (Mt 15). And he forbade his disciples from ministering at all to gentiles in very clear terms… and nobody outside of the land of Israel(Mt 10).

This is why WWJD, without context, is a dangerous concept.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Indeed, because you entirely miss the context that this was earlier in Jesus’ ministry, when He was attempting to show Israel the path to salvation first. And you also entirely miss Matthew 28:19, in which Jesus instructs, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations …”

Ed Morrissey on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

Sounds like a progressive’s idea of citizenship and governance is sort of religious.

– Captain Obvious

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

How exactly was Christ “fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day?” I thought he spent most of his time teaching. Aside from the moneychangers in the temple incident, where is all this fighting injustice and speaking truth to power?

Pablo on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

What part of “religion and the free exercise thereof” do you not understand?

rockmom on June 29, 2012 at 1:41 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

“Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’”

davidk on June 29, 2012 at 1:41 PM

*not any sort of pun on Captain Ed, by the way. Completely different captain. Better hat, poorer navigation skills.

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 1:42 PM

The church Mooch attended for 20 years, led by Rev. Jeremiah Wright, preaches the doctrine of Black Liberation Theology. They believe that Jesus was just like che. For more info, check out our dear friend Baldilock’s blog.

kingsjester on June 29, 2012 at 1:42 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

“Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them [Roman soldiers], for they do not know what they are doing.’”

davidk on June 29, 2012 at 1:43 PM

How exactly was Christ “fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day?” I thought he spent most of his time teaching. Aside from the moneychangers in the temple incident, where is all this fighting injustice and speaking truth to power?

Pablo on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

Liberals have been spouting this claptrap forever.

rockmom on June 29, 2012 at 1:43 PM

This is why WWJD, without context, is a dangerous concept.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Indeed, because you entirely miss the context that this was earlier in Jesus’ ministry, when He was attempting to show Israel the path to salvation first. And you also entirely miss Matthew 28:19, in which Jesus instructs, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations …”

Ed Morrissey on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

GAME, SET, MATCH

ToddPA on June 29, 2012 at 1:44 PM

Now that the First Lady has acknowledged that ministry is not limited to the four walls of the church and that it necessarily involves spreading the message of grace and redemption to more than just the choir, can we expect her husband and the Secretary of HHS reach the same conclusion?

The short answer for all of them is no.

The longer answer is that Moochelle is once again mouthing meaningless BS couched in a religious veneer to get her Marxist husband a second term and probably knows that the people she is addressing are dumb enough to believe it. Nothing new here.

PatriotGal2257 on June 29, 2012 at 1:44 PM

How exactly was Christ “fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day?” I thought he spent most of his time teaching. Aside from the moneychangers in the temple incident, where is all this fighting injustice and speaking truth to power?

Pablo on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

Remember Mooch declaring that she would have to change our history, our traditions and our values because Barack will not allow us to hold onto them ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 1:45 PM

I wonder if Michelle Obamuh happened to bring up her wearing of a $500 pair of sneakers, to the Fidel Castro inviting flock?

I wonder how this would speak “truth to power” – especially to those who live in poverty? And, to those who have lost their jobs in this “depression” [as per Biden]?

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 1:47 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

So why are muslims exempt from Obama-scare , now called ObamaTax ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 1:47 PM

You’d think there’d be enough news today that Ed wouldn’t have to strain with a post like this.

red_herring on June 29, 2012 at 1:27 PM

You’d think there’d be enough news today that Ed you wouldn’t have to strain with a post comment like this.

davidk on June 29, 2012 at 1:50 PM

“He was out there fighting injustice

Such biblical ignorance. First off there was no church yet, Jesus was in the process of building it. (I WILL build my church on this rock). Second, what Mooch considers injustice (unequal distribution of wealth) Jesus said was completely irrelvant. (Blessed are the poor) Jesus preached against material possessions as a value and said to focus on treasure in heaven. Mooch wants to serve two masters and has ended up hating one and loving the other. Just as Jesus said.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 1:51 PM

In fact, Mrs. Obama makes that case as eloquently as I’ve seen it made during this debate.

Let’s not assume that she actually believes this. Twenty years of sitting in the pews listening the racist, Marxist, ex-muslim, Jeremiah Wright is more telling than a campaign speech delivered to a core constituency.

Big MO and her hubby are beyond shame and expert liars.

Cody1991 on June 29, 2012 at 1:51 PM

Radical pro-homosexuality & pro-abortion radicals citing Jesus?

You really can make the Bible say just about anything…if you’re willing to reject what it really says.

itsnotaboutme on June 29, 2012 at 1:52 PM

This is why WWJD, without context, is a dangerous concept.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:33 PM

Indeed, because you entirely miss the context that this was earlier in Jesus’ ministry, when He was attempting to show Israel the path to salvation first. And you also entirely miss Matthew 28:19, in which Jesus instructs, “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations …”

Ed Morrissey on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

GAME, SET, MATCH

ToddPA on June 29, 2012 at 1:44 PM

Great. Everyone is quoting the Lord post-resurrection.

You cannot show me anywhere in his earthly ministry where he treated Romans (you example) the same as Jews during his ministry. He clearly and overtly did not.

Jesus did not limit His ministry to just those disciples who followed him, but ministered to many, including Romans, in the course of His evangelization.

Sorry, Ed, your statement argues that “His ministry” was equal to all. It simply was not. He stated that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Was he lying?

And even post-Matt 28, the 12 didn’t go to gentiles (save Peter, once) and Paul went to “Jews first, as was his practice) until the end of the Acts age. And in Romans, Paul warns Gentile believers that if they become haughty against Israel, they would be “cut off”. That warning was only for gentile believers.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:52 PM

So why are muslims exempt from Obama-scare , now called ObamaTax ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 1:47 PM

Because Congress was establishing a state religion by giving preferential tax treatment to them?

txmomof6 on June 29, 2012 at 1:53 PM

Now that the First Lady has acknowledged that ministry is not limited to the four walls of the church and that it necessarily involves spreading the message of grace and redemption to more than just the choir, can we expect her husband and the Secretary of HHS reach the same conclusion?

Of course not. Got to get the Sandra Flukes of the world all that “free” stuff like contraception and abortion. For they too, apparently, have ideas about how to minister to mankind.

Happy Nomad on June 29, 2012 at 1:53 PM

So why are muslims exempt from Obama-scare , now called ObamaTax ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 1:47 PM

What about the 1300 unions and other groups within which he exempted millions of people? How does yesterday’s ruling affect them?

Schadenfreude on June 29, 2012 at 1:54 PM

Jesus said, ‘Father, forgive them [Roman soldiers], for they do not know what they are doing.’”
davidk on June 29, 2012 at 1:43 PM

That comment was directed at the Pharisees just as much or more than the Roman soldiers. Jesus specifically said the Pharisees were more responsible for his death than the Romans.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 1:54 PM

You really can make the Bible say just about anything…if you’re willing to reject what it really says.

itsnotaboutme on June 29, 2012 at 1:52 PM

Mooch views Christianity in much the same way her filthy lying husband views the rule of law. Something you can pick and choose which parts you want to agree with and which you do not.

Happy Nomad on June 29, 2012 at 1:55 PM

“He was out there fighting injustice and speaking truth to power every single day”

 
libfreeordie, does BLT really promote Batman-Jesus?

rogerb on June 29, 2012 at 1:55 PM

Great. Everyone is quoting the Lord post-resurrection.

So does the source you yourself use.

Ed Morrissey on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

“Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.’”

davidk on June 29, 2012 at 1:41 PM

Well, they didn’t do this. They did not go unto gentiles, save once (and Peter only). And they never baptized anyone in the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 2 states, “You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.”

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:52 PM

Why is this distinction important to you?

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

So does the source you yourself use.
 
Ed Morrissey on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

 
Well played.

rogerb on June 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM

Great. Everyone is quoting the Lord post-resurrection.

So does the source you yourself use.

Ed Morrissey on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

It’s your argument, Ed.

You argued that HIS ministry treated everyone equally, whereas he did not. And he was abundantly clear on that point.

I limited my response to HIS ministry. By quoting him after his earthly ministry was over, you do violence to your own argument.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:58 PM

“Sorry, Ed, your statement argues that “His ministry” was equal to all. It simply was not. He stated that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Was he lying?”
He also said “I have other sheep who are not of this fold” referring specifically to gentiles. He further told some Pharisees there would be gentiles in Heaven while these Pharisees would not be.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Were there Churches during the lifetime of Jesus Christ ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM

As a matter of fact yes. There was a big one right in Jerusalem, the Jewish Temple. And it eminently qualifies as a Church because sacrifice to Almighty God was offered there.

Jesus established the Church. He never set foot inside of one, though. But far be it from me not to appreciate this gift from Michelle’s ignorance.

natasha333 on June 29, 2012 at 1:38 PM

Au contraire. He specifically mentions teaching in the Temple day after day.

Goldenavatar on June 29, 2012 at 1:59 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

And the last I checked, the supreme law of the land states that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Like it or not, the Constitution recognizes special rights for religious exercise (and also says that the government does not get to decide what counts as “true religion”).

One silver lining in yesterday’s ruling will be the left’s reaction when the HHS mandate is struck down 9-0. After Hosanna-Tabor, the administration should have known better than to pick this fight.

sadarj on June 29, 2012 at 1:59 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:52 PM

Why is this distinction important to you?

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

Because scripture teaches us to mark the things that are different and to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

I can no more take commands to Adam or commands concerning sacrifices or commands as to how I am to dress for myself than I can take instructions from the Lord Jesus or from Paul to Israel for myself.

I can quote many commands and promises that no Christian would take for himself, yet he fails to consistently do that with all scripture (that is, mark context).

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:01 PM

“We see that in the life of Jesus Christ. Jesus didn’t limit his ministry to the four walls of the church,”

If Ms. Obama had even the most basic understanding of Christianty, she would know the the “Church” is not defined by nor contained within walls. When a Christian goes to church, he/she goes to the meeting of the congregation, not to a building or place. The Church is the fellowship of the believers. I guess Reverent Wright didn’t get around to covering this point.

Richard Blaine on June 29, 2012 at 2:02 PM

As a matter of fact yes. There was a big one right in Jerusalem, the Jewish Temple. And it eminently qualifies as a Church because sacrifice to Almighty God was offered there.

No the temple was not a church. The New Testment word translated as church (Eklessia) means “the called out ones”. Thus, Church means the entire body of the regenerate. It has nothing to do with a building.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:03 PM

In a speech today to a conference of the African Methodist Episcopal Church, the First Lady explained her concept of citizenship by likening it to the ministry of Jesus.
I seem to recall that this “church” once brought Fidel Castro to the pulpit. Ah, yes, a Communist and an atheist [forgive my redundancy], lecturing to the flock.

It appears that this “church” has a penchant for indulging Communists.

And, I don’t need Communists lecturing me about Jesus Christ.

Though shalt not steal. Thou shalt not covet … any thing that is thy neighbor’s.

The Communists step on these Commandments, with every action they take – and talking about Jesus Christ doesn’t alter that fact.

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 1:35 PM | Delete

Just cherry picking what they choose to believe as part of their part time, every so often faith.

smfic on June 29, 2012 at 2:03 PM

“Sorry, Ed, your statement argues that “His ministry” was equal to all. It simply was not. He stated that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Was he lying?”

He also said “I have other sheep who are not of this fold” referring specifically to gentiles. He further told some Pharisees there would be gentiles in Heaven while these Pharisees would not be.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Well, that doesn’t change what he taught or his ministry. Do you want to argue that he was contradicting himself?

He expressly forbade his disciples from preaching the kingdom to gentiles and from teaching outside of Israel. He also responded to a child of Abraham who called out “Son of David” to him while completely ignoring a gentile who did the same (she had no right to address him with that title).

He healed two gentiles in his earthly ministry and saw neither of them (and obviously did not touch them). He only would touch a Jew.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:05 PM

What if the law of the land compels us to do something we cannot in good conscience do because of our faith?

magicbeans on June 29, 2012 at 1:37 PM

Everyone does this because no one agrees with all of what government does. There are Christians who believe the war in Afghanistan is a violation of their faith, they still have to pay taxes because that is the law. Here’s what the law isn’t supposed to do, but your religious complain above the complaint of others merely because it is religious. If religion motivates you to a particular political position, that’s fine. You want to organize around that political position. That’s great. But please do not ask the state to privilege your faith merely because it is a faith. People act as if religious belief deserves special protection over other forms of belief systems (ideology is a belief system too). And that’s just not true. The first Amendment doesn’t make special provision for religion, it INCLUDES religion within the broad category of speech or expression.

But this idea that HHS is the first law to ask individuals to contribute to governmental actions that violate beliefs is pure hogwash. It is only the latest, deal like the rest of us do, work to change the government so that it violates fewer of your beliefs and quit whinging.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:05 PM

Because Congress was establishing a state religion by giving preferential tax treatment to them?

txmomof6 on June 29, 2012 at 1:53 PM

and

What about the 1300 unions and other groups within which he exempted millions of people? How does yesterday’s ruling affect them?

Schadenfreude on June 29, 2012 at 1:54 PM

Conclusion :
Non-muslims paid jazia to the Sheikh

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 2:05 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:01 PM

Interesting. Thank you.

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 2:06 PM

Her remarks only apply to Democrat churches, like the AME, where they don’t care how many black babies are killed through abortion, so long as folks get their handouts from the government.

Ward Cleaver on June 29, 2012 at 2:09 PM

He expressly forbade his disciples from preaching the kingdom to gentiles and from teaching outside of Israel.

ONly during their brief missionary journey while before his ressurection. One instance. He specifically said it was a gentile who showed more faith than anyone in Israel.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 2:06 PM

Studying and seeking do not end until we die.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:09 PM

This post was about the similarity of the arguments Michelle was making to the arguments being put forth by the Bishops. It was probably intended to illustrate a little hypocrisy on the part of Michelle and her husband, and to (albeit fruitlessly) suggest to Michelle that she realize the similarities.

– wasn’t it?

Axe on June 29, 2012 at 2:10 PM

No the temple was not a church. The New Testment word translated as church (Eklessia) means “the called out ones”. Thus, Church means the entire body of the regenerate. It has nothing to do with a building.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:03 PM

Ah, then I still say there was a Church in the time of Christ, because the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, the union of all believers. And Our Lady was certainly the first of believers and present during the entirety of Christ’s earthly life. Therefore, there since the collection of believers was never empty during Our Lord’s entire earthly life, there must of been a Church.

Goldenavatar on June 29, 2012 at 2:10 PM

Jesus healed a Canaanite woman’s daughter. Matthew 15:22, et seq.

Jesus healed a man from the Gadarenes, who was possessed. Mark 5.

Both were Gentiles.

A part of Jesus “ministry” involved his ability to heal the sick.

Accordingly, He ministered to the Gentiles, too.

In addition, those who followed Jesus included those from the following Gentile areas -

Matthew 4:

24. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

25. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM

He healed two gentiles in his earthly ministry and saw neither of them (and obviously did not touch them). He only would touch a Jew.
mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:05 PM

You don’t know that. John said Jesus’ did many works not recorded in the Gospel.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM

There’s a difference between thinking through what scripture compels of the faithful and the law of the land.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 1:28 PM

There’s also a different standard for liberals quoting The Bible than Conservatives. How do you people live with your hypocrisies?

hawkdriver on June 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM

There’s also a different standard for liberals quoting The Bible than Conservatives. How do you people live with your hypocrisies?

hawkdriver on June 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Can you point us to the chapter and verse where the scripture says “this only applies if you’re conservative.”

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Her remarks only apply to Democrat churches, like the AME, where they don’t care how many black babies are killed through abortion, so long as folks get their handouts from the government.

Ward Cleaver on June 29, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Seriously dude?

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:15 PM

Therefore, there since the collection of believers was never empty during Our Lord’s entire earthly life, there must of been a Church.
Goldenavatar on June 29, 2012 at 2:10 PM

Yet Jesus said “I will build my Church” not “I have built my Church”. The Church began at Pentecost with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:15 PM

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:14 PM
You’re right. Many a heathen has been saved by reading the Word of God.

kingsjester on June 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM

Isn’t campaigning in a tax exempt church illegal?
You know, that separation thingy liberals love.

Bevan on June 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM

ONly during their brief missionary journey while before his ressurection. One instance. He specifically said it was a gentile who showed more faith than anyone in Israel.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Non-sequitur

Gentiles could always have faith. The Law allowed gentiles to worship. They just couldn’t partake of the Feasts unless they became proselytes. The Law carried a specific promise (a kingdom of priests – Ex 19), not resurrection life. Life has been, since Adam, a free gift by grace. A believing gentile under the Law (Rahab, etc) could have eternal life without a place in the kingdom. But to partake of the promises made to the fathers that the Lord Jesus came to confirm (Romans 8:15), one had to become a Jew.

The Lord instructed the 12 (who will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes) that they were not to preach “the gospel of the Kingdom” to anyone but to Israel. Peter was not astonished that Cornelius believed (Peter stated that he knew he was a believer and he had seen the faith of the Centurion you referenced), he (and the 12) were astonished that a gentile received the same gifts Jews received (they had never seen that, there were no gentiles at Pentecost, a Jewish feast).

The Lord responded to the gentile woman only after she called him “Lord.” He ignored her when she called him “Son of David” and he informed her he (as King) was not sent to anyone but to Israel.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:17 PM

hawkdriver on June 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Can you point us to the chapter and verse where the scripture says “this only applies if you’re conservative.”

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Let’s try this again. If a Conservative quotes The Bible in the public arena, they are imposing their religious beliefs on others. If a liberal does it, there is no such condemnation.

hawkdriver on June 29, 2012 at 2:17 PM

mankai:

Biggest problem with you trying to constrain Jesus’ ministry during his life to the time before his death and resurrection is that for Jesus, his death was a necessary part of his mission – a sacrifice for all the sins of mankind.

His resurrection is the continuation of his life, for the entire point of the resurrection is that Christ is still alive. To selectively read scripture on Jesus’ life to preclude any instruction after his death and resurrection is to miss the entire point of Christianity.

BKennedy on June 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 2:12 PM

But not “equally.”

And in Matthew 15 he told the woman that he was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. In Matthew 10 (after Matt 4 and after the Sermon on the Mount) he forbade them prom preaching the kingdom to gentiles and from healing gentiles.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM

I noticed that mankai did not engage Ed’s quoting of the Great Commission.

With understanding that command – comes having no problem with Christian activism, as Jesus also said in John 14 that His followers will do greater things than He did.

The error comes when activists denigrate Jesus to be just an activist as well, instead of the Lord of all. (and that often leads to the more egregious error of fusing Jesus with banal left-wing politics).

22044 on June 29, 2012 at 2:19 PM

BKennedy on June 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM

I’d say that you just ended the discussion, on this point.

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Whatever – I wish that the stupid, slobbering cow would keep her grubby, filthy non-believer hooves off of CHRISTIANITY and JESUS. Big Mo should stick to things that her tiny diseased brain can comprehend, like being not-really-proud-of America. The obamas hate America and abhor Christianity – they are the enemies of all that is good about this nation – they are traitors and they are pure evil.

It is our duty as Americans to rescue America from the obamas – before it is too late.

Pork-Chop on June 29, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Oh just shut up. You wouldn’t recognize Jesus if He was standing right in front of you.

Cleombrotus on June 29, 2012 at 2:20 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 1:57 PM

So anything directed towards the disciples was meant only for the disciples. Is that how you intend us to understand the Mt 28 verse?

Actually regarding baptism the Bible doesn’t say anything about the words they used. So making a point from an argument of silence is meaningless. Occam’s razor would apply. They were commanded to Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and so it is more logical to assume that they did.

chemman on June 29, 2012 at 2:20 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Yet, he healed her daughter. And he healed the possessed of the Gadarenes.

Unless you want to argue that healing was NOT a part of His ministry, then He ministered to the Gentiles.

I’m not going to waste anymore time on such a ridiculous “speck.”

OhEssYouCowboys on June 29, 2012 at 2:22 PM

Let’s try this again. If a Conservative quotes The Bible in the public arena, they are imposing their religious beliefs on others. If a liberal does it, there is no such condemnation.

hawkdriver on June 29, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Oh, gotcha. Yeah it does seem to be a bit of a hypocrisy doesn’t it. I tend to not use spiritual/moral arguments in political debates for that reason. If everyone is claiming their idea is right becuse God says so…well who is to say who is right about what God thinks? Faith as a practice for life is practical and does all kinds of things to make people better in the world. But its not a rationale for policy in my mind.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:22 PM

So nothing on Black Liberation Theology’s Batman-Jesus, libfreeordie?

rogerb on June 29, 2012 at 2:22 PM

Isn’t campaigning in a tax exempt church illegal?
You know, that separation thingy liberals love.

Bevan on June 29, 2012 at 2:16 PM

It is.

But I think we all know why it’s A-OK in this case.

tetriskid on June 29, 2012 at 2:22 PM

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:17 PM

The Samaritan woman at the well was not a Jew and Jesus saved her and her entire town by teaching them personally for two days. Jesus said to his disciples “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and accomplish his work” immediately before preaching to a town of gentiles for two days.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:23 PM

Whatever – I wish that the stupid, slobbering cow would keep her grubby, filthy non-believer hooves off of CHRISTIANITY and JESUS. Big Mo should stick to things that her tiny diseased brain can comprehend, like being not-really-proud-of America.
Pork-Chop on June 29, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Jesus man….she’s not only the First Lady…she’s a human being. Can you get your life right please?

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:24 PM

BKennedy on June 29, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Do you believe is one with the Father? I do. Did not God’s message and instruction change from before the cross?

Am I “constraining” God’s ministry to Israel by placing instructions and promises to them in another age? Or do you follow the dietary and dress laws of Israel? Even under the law, those constraints were for Israel alone. As noted, Gentiles could worship God (as Creator) without becoming Jews… BUT they could not participate in the Feasts (connected to the covenant of Ex 19) unless they became proselytes.

The Lord came to pay the sin-debt of Adam and to reverse the curse of death and decay for all men. But he also came, as Paul wrote, “to confirm the promises made to the fathers.” Those earthly promises of an earthly kingdom and a priesthood belong to Israel. In his death, burial and resurrection is the foundation of all hopes. The earthly hope, the hope of the new Jerusalem coming down and the hope of being at his right hand, far above all heavens.

So the resurrection is central to all. I’d never argue differently. But I do mark the things that differ and try to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

mankai on June 29, 2012 at 2:25 PM

I’m so happy that we can all learn about Christianity from FLOTUS.

*spit*

Cicero43 on June 29, 2012 at 2:25 PM

So nothing on Black Liberation Theology’s Batman-Jesus, libfreeordie?

rogerb on June 29, 2012 at 2:22 PM

Is this a liberation theology thread? What do you want to know? I’m a fan of any anti-imperialist/anti-capitalist ideology so I’m a fan of liberation theology for that reason. I haven’t read Cone so I can’t really speak on it with too much authority.

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:26 PM

Whatever – I wish that the stupid, slobbering cow would keep her grubby, filthy non-believer hooves off of CHRISTIANITY and JESUS.
Pork-Chop on June 29, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Also…is that statement very Jesus-y?

libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:27 PM

Let’s try this again. If a Conservative quotes The Bible in the public arena, they are imposing their religious beliefs on others. If a liberal does it, there is no such condemnation.

hawkdriver on June 29, 2012 at 2:17 PM

That’s because conservative Bible is different from the lefty bible.
In the lefty bible, it says
” God d@^^ America”…remember ?

burrata on June 29, 2012 at 2:27 PM

Liberation theology is the comic section of the theological newspaper.

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:28 PM

Also…is that statement very Jesus-y?
libfreeordie on June 29, 2012 at 2:27 PM

It’s no worse than “You brood of vipers”

tommyboy on June 29, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Logic and consistency are too great a burden for the mighty intellect of Michelle Obama. Unfortunately for her, relentlessly rationalizing whatever serves the purposes of the moment has its limitations.

novaculus on June 29, 2012 at 2:30 PM

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