Issa to Obama: So … the White House is involved in Fast and Furious, then?

posted at 9:21 am on June 26, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

In case readers didn’t already realize it … it’s on.   The Daily Caller has a letter sent by House Oversight Chair Darrell Issa to President Barack Obama challenging the assertion of executive privilege in the investigation of Operation Fast and Furious.  In the letter, Issa tells Obama that the assertion means one of two things: either the highest levels of the White House were involved in the effort to mislead Congress on OF&F, or Obama is deliberately obstructing the investigation:

“[Y]our privilege assertion means one of two things,” Issa wrote to the president in a letter dated June 25. “Either you or your most senior advisors were involved in managing Operation Fast & Furious and the fallout from it, including the false February 4, 2011 letter provided by the attorney general to the committee, or, you are asserting a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation.”

Issa said Obama’s assertion of executive privilege “raised the question” about the veracity of how the “White House has steadfastly maintained that it has not had any role in advising the department with respect to the congressional investigation.”

Obama’s assertion of executive privilege cited the “deliberative process” clause, but Issa rejects that as inapplicable under the circumstances:

Issa laid out that this is because the “Justice Department has steadfastly maintained that the documents sought by the committee do not implicate the White House whatsoever.”

“If true, they are at best deliberative documents between and among department personnel who lack the requisite ‘operational proximity’ to the president,” as legal precedent Issa cites requires. “As such, they cannot be withheld pursuant to the constitutionally-based executive privilege.”

Issa further breaks down how, “[c]ourts distinguish between the presidential communications privilege and the deliberative process privilege.”

“Both … are executive privileges designed to protect the confidentiality of executive branch decision-making,” Issa wrote. “The deliberative-process privilege, however, which applies to executive branch officials generally, is a common law privilege that requires a lower threshold of need to be overcome, and ‘disappears altogether when there is any reason to believe government misconduct has occurred.’”

Misconduct occurred on two levels.  Issa’s reference is to the false information submitted by DoJ officials in Congressional testimony, which is the specific subject of the subpoenas on which the contempt charge is based.  However, the overall investigation into OF&F also probes official misconduct in deliberately allowing thousands of weapons to be carried over the border with no way to track them, which violates regulations at the ATF — which is why ATF insiders blew the whistle on the operation in the first place.  Either way, Issa is entirely correct under US v Espy that deliberative process executive privilege does not survive in these circumstances.

The letter goes on to explain why Issa didn’t cut a deal with Attorney General Eric Holder.  Holder demanded that Issa “permanently” shelve the contempt charge and state that Holder had complied entirely with the subpoenas, in exchange for accepting a selective document dump, sight unseen.  Small wonder the meeting didn’t last long, and Holder had to run to Obama for an assertion of executive privilege immediately afterward.

If the White House wasn’t involved in OF&F or the cover-up, then Holder should have just coughed up the materials.  For that matter, Holder and the White House should have just fired the people involved in the first place and offered a “mistakes were made” mea minima culpa, which would have solved all of their political problems more than a year ago.  This would be old and barely relevant news had Obama and Holder done so.  The more they fight to keep those records secret — and especially when they offer ridiculous “deals” like the one Issa describes — the more it becomes clear that Obama really does have something to hide.

Update: The Hill also reports on Issa’s letter.


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and that was wrong….your actually too stupid to be a true Marxist (as dumb as those morons are, they aren’t near as intellectually lazy as you….they’re simply lemmings).. I’d put you in the pure “moron” catagory.

Tim_CA on June 26, 2012 at 11:28 AM

I was searching for the proper description of VerbalDouche. I think you’ve pretty much covered it right there.

ICanSeeNovFromMyHouse on June 26, 2012 at 11:40 AM

jaydee_007 on June 26, 2012 at 11:19 AM

Exactly…

We have to remember that a large amount of people go to the comment sections to see what is really going on with the issue discussed.

Providing links and factual rebuttals allow many people to take this information and use it on Face Book….e-mails…..and other sites which helps get more information out.

Plus….when you engage with someone who has a valid argument and disagreement…..they can certainly help with understanding the issue better……keeps you out of a bubble.

Problem with many of our trolls is they are pretty much the typical Huffpo poster rattling off media matter talking points or hit and run insults.

Very rarely do you see a liberal present a valid,credible argument that they can back up beyond….’you’re just a backwoods racist”…….

…..and when you try to engage them on their sites….you get banned or comments deleted if they go against the status quo on that site.

liberals policies and so called “forward” direction are built on falsehoods…talking points….and tribe mentality.It is impossible for them to defend the failures of it so they either attempt to shut you out of discussion or default to calling you a “hateful extremist and racist” to distract from their ability to credibly defend their position.

I had a huge problem with the Bush administration not defending itself against the lies and smears from the democratic party (Rove even adminstted this was a mistake)….and it has led to many falsehoods that hurt the party down the road.

liberals know that a lie repeated enough will be taken as truth to many in the electorate.
So I think we should engage and debunk liberal lies and propaganda when they present themselves.

Baxter Greene on June 26, 2012 at 11:40 AM

What made you assume that?
I don’t see myself as purely anything, but I would never argue, claim, or pretend that I am a conservative. I got called a marxist here pretty quickly, and I’m not that either.

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 10:59 AM

If accuracy were you #1 priority, “evader” is what you should see yourself as.

You really are a joke.

Baxter Greene on June 26, 2012 at 11:05 AM

With all of your laughable, blatant non sequiturs, you should see yourself as a “joke”, too, verbaluce! :)

You know, to me, you make a pretty good stand-in for crr6! Thanks for that! :)

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 11:42 AM

Be gentle.

Herb on June 26, 2012 at 10:51 AM

Why?

chemman on June 26, 2012 at 11:44 AM

The only issue with ignoring the Troll is that the ‘lurker’ who isn’t maybe getting the in depth stories and visits, sees the Troll’s remarks (which, by sheer coincidence, match up with what they are seeing on the Alphabet Soup networks) and no one answering them and may walk away with the thought that if they don’t agree with the Troll they are alone in their thinking.

I answer Trolls not to convince the Trolls, but for the casual reader.

Trolls are pretty well established with mindes of Cement, all mixed up and permenantly set.
(Or Open Minded if you ask them.)

jaydee_007 on June 26, 2012 at 11:19 AM

.
If a lurker can not spot the troll, know the troll for what it is and retain confidence in their own thinking … why, I do believe you have just described a liberal!

Which leads to the second point in bold.

Unless you are a Hot Air staff sock puppet looking to drive up page hits, feeding the troll only results in everyone (members and visitors alike) having to read through endless, mindless drivel rather than being able to focus on the intelligent discussions a members-comments only blog is supposed to be able to deliver.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM

It is a legit scandal, its also completely run its course… What more do we need to know?

libfreeordie on June 20, 2012 at 1:21 PM

We need to know why no effort was made to track the guns going into Mexico. I am unaware of any answer being provided for that question.

We need to know the full extent of who was involved, and see communications that could outline the motivations behind the mind-boggling decisions that were made.

We need to know why Eric Holder repeatedly lied to Congress, A CRIME IN ITSELF.

And with the President invoking Executive Privilege, we need to know the President’s involvement.

To simply drop this matter would be just as scandalous and Fast and Furious itself.

Reggie1971 on June 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Thanks, Flora.
And can you grab me a coffee when you have a sec…
:)

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 11:09 AM

Well bless your little heart.

Look guys, this little troll thinks it’s going to rile me by being cutesy.

“A few years ago, this guy would have been getting us coffee.” – Bill Clinton speaking to Ted Kennedy about Barak Obama.

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM

.
The troll is just displaying the misogynistic mindset of liberals, which is the same whether male or female. The most self loathing women I have known have all been liberals.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 11:36 AM

Yup, that was a pretty arrogant and insulting dismissal couched in seemingly harmless rhetorical humor. The kind of insult common to individuals whose profession bars them from more direct insults.

Objection your honor, counsels remarks are needlessly inflammatory.

Objection sustained, counsels remarks are to be stricken from the record and counsel is warned that the court will not tolerate such behavior.

SWalker on June 26, 2012 at 11:48 AM

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 10:21 AM

So the gist of your argument is that Issa wasn’t nice to the precedent. You might be an adult physically but your are definitely a child mentally.

chemman on June 26, 2012 at 11:49 AM

We need to know why no effort was made to track the guns going into Mexico. I am unaware of any answer being provided for that question.

Reggie1971 on June 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM

But, Bush started Project Wide Receiver!!!” does not count as a relevant answer, huh? :)

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 11:51 AM

There must be some kind of mental block in Congress that prevents any members from using the word “IMPEACH”in the same sentence as “Obama.”

Obama, due to his special racial makeup, is apparently immune to being charged with the dereliction of his sworn duty. Everyone knows he is an unswerving enemy of our Constitution, and there must be thousands of pages of evidential material showing that by now, but he remains untouched by the folks who should be doing just that.

We have a government that refuses to do it’s sworn duties, a batch of bureaucrats who unabashedly refuse to do their sworn duties, and a citizenry that fails to even get the slightest bit excited about what is happening right before their eyes.

It should get interesting in November.

dockywocky on June 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Regardless, the letter was in my view just more b.s. grandstanding.

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 10:55 AM

No, I think the real issue is that you are so used to BS’ing that you see the same thing in the communications of others. Some of us refer to this as ‘PROJECTION’.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:01 PM

Unless you are a Hot Air staff sock puppet looking to drive up page hits, feeding the troll only results in everyone (members and visitors alike) having to read through endless, mindless drivel rather than being able to focus on the intelligent discussions a members-comments only blog is supposed to be able to deliver.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Perhaps you should focus on your own posts and quit trying to tell others what is or isn’t acceptable.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:04 PM

I had another idea last night about F&F. Is it possible that what the democratics wanted to do was simply to initiate a crime wave in Mexico so bloody that it would drive huge waves of emigration out of Mexico, mostly into the USA?

That would give them justification for their final solution to immigration, and millions of new votes. Could it be this simple? Are they this stupid and evil?

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 12:06 PM

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 10:21 AM

I thought it was hilarious that you actually pretended to be conservative when you first showed up.

MadisonConservative on June 26, 2012 at 10:52 AM

That’s interesting that you said that – I’ve seen that trick played in a couple of places.

What do you consider yourself to be verbaluce?

Part of the National Socialist Left perhaps?

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 12:07 PM

There must be some kind of mental block in Congress that prevents any members from using the word “IMPEACH”in the same sentence as “Obama.”

Obama, due to his special racial makeup, is apparently immune to being charged with the dereliction of his sworn duty. Everyone knows he is an unswerving enemy of our Constitution, and there must be thousands of pages of evidential material showing that by now, but he remains untouched by the folks who should be doing just that.

We have a government that refuses to do it’s sworn duties, a batch of bureaucrats who unabashedly refuse to do their sworn duties, and a citizenry that fails to even get the slightest bit excited about what is happening right before their eyes.

It should get interesting in November.

dockywocky on June 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM

There is a mental block with regards to the actual practice of “Impeachment” in congress period. It isn’t just with regards to Obama. Both parties have been extremely reluctant to make any case for Impeachment due to the partisan nature of American Politics. They do it basically out of fear of the inevitable tit for tat retaliatory strikes that would ensue afterwards.

SWalker on June 26, 2012 at 12:12 PM

The White House and Holder are UP TO THEIR EYEBROWS in F&F!

GarandFan on June 26, 2012 at 12:14 PM

The White House and Holder are UP TO THEIR EYEBROWS in F&F!

GarandFan on June 26, 2012 at 12:14 PM

If by “up to their eyebrows” you mean, down in a hole 25 feet below ground level and digging at a “Fast and Furious” pace, then yup, in it “up to their eyebrows” alright.

SWalker on June 26, 2012 at 12:17 PM

For that matter, Holder and the White House should have just fired the people involved in the first place

Ed, have you ever known Obama to pullback from throwing a person under the bus? His own pastor found himself under the bus. Heck, he even tossed his own grandmother under the bus with the “typical white woman” comment. Thus, if Obama is unwilling to toss anyone under the bus it’s because there isn’t anyone he’s willing to toss under the bus (read: himself).

Weight of Glory on June 26, 2012 at 9:42 AM

Of course, but it’s not himself, it’s Valerie Jarrett. Little Bammie is far too lazy and uninvolved in details to be the driving force behind F&F. It has to be someone that CANNOT be thrown under the bus, and that only person is Jarrett.

She is little Bammie’s brain, one of the directors of the red diaper president project. She is as much a key player in the prog movement as little Bammie himself. She is to be protected at ALL costs.

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 12:22 PM

He just sounds pissy. Again.
I’m betting he wrote that one all by himself, with little if any help from staff.

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 10:21 AM

Perhaps. He also happens to be dead right. Spin that, apologist.

totherightofthem on June 26, 2012 at 12:25 PM

For that matter, Holder and the White House should have just fired the people involved in the first place and offered a “mistakes were made” mea minima culpa, which would have solved all of their political problems more than a year ago.

These s.o.b.’s always double down; the only apologies ever offered are to foreign potentates, usually for the supposed transgressions of GW.

disa on June 26, 2012 at 12:26 PM

Perhaps you should focus on your own posts and quit trying to tell others what is or isn’t acceptable.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:04 PM


So, in your world, you get to comment about anyone and anything but any comment on you is over the line?

Is that where you want to go?

Interesting blog link via your username, by the way.

Lots of strippers in bikini videos – I wonder if anyone from Hot Air might think letting you link back to it is not in Hot Air’s best interests?

It is also capturing visitor’s IP addresses – I am wondering if it is doing more than that for folks who are not using proxies, re-routing, firewalls and other security measures?

Do you own Deja Vu? – or are you just a frequent visitor?

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 12:30 PM

Someone needs to leak the info that the WH is hiding. This has the stench of “high crimes and misdemeanors.”

moonsbreath on June 26, 2012 at 12:36 PM

If the White House wasn’t involved in OF&F or the cover-up, then Holder should have just coughed up the materials. For that matter, Holder and the White House should have just fired the people involved in the first place and offered a “mistakes were made” mea minima culpa, which would have solved all of their political problems more than a year ago. This would be old and barely relevant news had Obama and Holder done so. The more they fight to keep those records secret — and especially when they offer ridiculous “deals” like the one Issa describes — the more it becomes clear that Obama really does have something to hide.

Yes.

Of course, but it’s not himself, it’s Valerie Jarrett. …
She is as much a key player in the prog movement as little Bammie himself. She is to be protected at ALL costs.

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 12:22 PM

Double yes. Someone suggested this on an earlier thread this week, and I think it is the most likely explanation. (Another suggested Hillary, but I think O would have given her the bus wheel long ago.)

peski on June 26, 2012 at 12:38 PM

I’ve always given B. J. the benefit of the doubt on that statement.

Forget obumbles skin color…in the world of politics, the dork is a lightweight idealogue, nothing more.

In a rational world, getting coffee is just about where the marxist messiah maxes out his pay grade.

Tim_CA on June 26, 2012 at 11:38 AM

Oh. I just thought he was being racist by practically calling Obama “Steppin Fetchit”. You are kinder to BJ than I, apparently. ;)

totherightofthem on June 26, 2012 at 12:40 PM

In a sane world, this would start impeachment proceedings.

Obama instigated an act of war against a friendly neighboring state for the purpose of killing enough Americans to move the needle on gun control.

In fact, I can’t think of an executive action in the history of the Republic more perfectly anti-constitutional then what Obama has wrought.

Hell, Obama managed to enact the craziest of the the crazy conspiracy theories his leftwing allies accused COINTELPRO of in the 60s.

18-1 on June 26, 2012 at 12:44 PM

WaPo had an opinion piece yesterday by Michael Gerson.

It’s called “An Attorney General Lacking Trust”.

Excerpt:

Holder began his tenure by supporting a special prosecutor to investigate enhanced interrogation by CIA agents, even though career prosecutors found insufficient evidence for charges — leading seven former CIA directors to denounce his assault on the institution. The attorney general proposed a New York civilian trial that would have given Khalid Sheik Mohammed a forum to embrace martyrdom and encourage violence — leading to a revolt of New York Democratic politicians and the removal of the case from Holder’s direct authority. His handling of the Fast and Furious case was botched from the start — requiring President Obama to assert executive privilege to cover a trail of incompetence and forcing Democratic members of Congress to rally in the cause of opacity and mediocrity.

-snip-

Unlike his congressional detractors, Holder was not “scared” of what Mohammed would say at trial. He prefers not to “cower.” He says his critics lack “confidence in the American system of justice.” It is Eric Holder’s distinctive contribution to the American political system: self-righteousness without the inconvenience of principle.

-snip-

Holder’s appointment of two prosecutors — one an Obama campaign donor — to investigate administration national security leaks is discredited before it begins. Which points to an immediate, practical need: an attorney general who inspires more trust than contempt.

Needless to say, Gerson’s words got the WaPo O’bama Fluffers squealing like stuck pigs.

Inspire trust? They’re all political hacks. Do you think Gonzales was a shining light of jurisprudence? How about Ashcroft? Ed Meese?

(Translated: “It’s All Bush’s Fault!”)

Guns dont kill people, PEOPLE kill people. Perhaps, Faux news will clarify that REPUBLICAN guns don’t kill people, DEMOCRAT’s guns kill people.

Lyin’/slimin’ became the Republicans’ default position as soon as we elected President Obama. They don’t like to lose — as we will be reminded the day after the November re-election.

I don’t believe in Republican outrage over the obviously tragic deaths of one or two federal agents. How could any reasonable person, when they seem to have little, if any guilt over sending thousands of American troops and tends of thousands of Iraqis to their deaths on the false pretenses of WMD?

(Translated: “It’s All Bush’s Fault!”)

, I have no clue as to the merits of defending Holder. All I know is that Isaa is a smug, too-big-for-his britches, camera loving Congressman….I wouldn’t buy a used car from him.

(Translated: “It’s All Issa’s Fault!”)

this program began during the Bush Administration.

(Translated: “It’s All Bush’s Fault!”)

Dick Cheney killed thousands of American soldiers and untold numbers of Iraqis and he’s still walking around free as well.

(Translated: “It’s All Halliburton’s Fault!”

Where were the house Republicans when G.W. Bush started this “gun walking” program? How come they waited until a Democratic president was in office to wail and knash their teeth?

The answer is obvious.

(Translated: “It’s All Bush’s Fault!”).

found those wmds yet?

Republicans are the mother of all lies.

(Translated: “It’s All Bush’s Fault!”)

But finally, some Sanity!

Why are people that believe that George W. was just shy of mental retardation, are using his actions to excuse the actions of Obama and his administration? If you take issue with everything W. did and your guy comes in and keep and/or expands pretty much every program the so called “war criminal” and “mental midget” did does that not in fact mean that your guy, Obama, is also a war criminal and mental midget?

Seems a bit biased doesn’t it?

This elicited a great reply:

Bush’s fault is the only ammo left?

Yup, that’s all they have!

Del Dolemonte on June 26, 2012 at 12:54 PM

It’s between Barack and a hard place.

Fallon on June 26, 2012 at 9:33 AM | Delete

Noooooooooo! Please no segments with Alan Colmes! I don’t want to lose my lunch.

Nutstuyu on June 26, 2012 at 12:56 PM

Of course, but it’s not himself, it’s Valerie Jarrett. Little Bammie is far too lazy and uninvolved in details to be the driving force behind F&F. It has to be someone that CANNOT be thrown under the bus, and that only person is Jarrett.

She is little Bammie’s brain, one of the directors of the red diaper president project. She is as much a key player in the prog movement as little Bammie himself. She is to be protected at ALL costs.

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 12:22 PM

I think you are underestimating 0bamessiah’s role here to a certain degree.

He’s a sick, sick puppy – think about those kill lists we’ve been hearing He gets orgasmic over. Even if that’s exaggerated, don’t forget that He’s a protege of Ayers, a narcissist extraordinaire, and a massive control freak. Because of that, I believe He is intimately involved with His fellow travelers about F&F at every step of the way…

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 12:56 PM

We need to turn this up to 11. And make the MBM pay for their efforts in covering up this whole affair.

JimK on June 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM

So, in your world, you get to comment about anyone and anything but any comment on you is over the line?

Is that where you want to go?

Interesting blog link via your username, by the way.

Lots of strippers in bikini videos – I wonder if anyone from Hot Air might think letting you link back to it is not in Hot Air’s best interests?

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 12:30 PM

It would seem that you have more than a touch of paranoia there, chum. The site is legitmate and on the level despite your bluster.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM

But even Issa said he has no evidence of that.
But maybe you do?

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 10:55 AM

…other than Obama claiming Executive Privilege, which can only invoked on specific documents containing discussions with the President or his direct reports.

Issa is just pointing out Obama’s contention…

1) Either they lied saying the President and his direct reports didn’t know anything about it which makes Obama and/or Holder guilty of perjury, or
2) The President is using Executive Privilege illegally to delay investigation into corruption (which is specifically NOT protected under Executive Privilege).

dominigan on June 26, 2012 at 1:02 PM

We need to know why no effort was made to track the guns going into Mexico. I am unaware of any answer being provided for that question.

Reggie1971 on June 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Good list of need-to-knows.

In relation to the first one listed (above): would also be useful to find out what assurances the cartels were given that the guns wouldn’t be tracked when they were purchased. That someone wouldn’t be arrested the minute he completed a transaction in the gun shop. Or after he’d delivered the guns to others. Remember, the cartels already knew from Operation Wide Receiver that their gun purchases in the U.S. could be tracked in real time. How were they convinced to take delivery of some 2,500 weapons the next time?

How much collusion between BATF and the Mexican cartels to to make this happen?

de rigueur on June 26, 2012 at 1:04 PM

That would give them justification for their final solution to immigration, and millions of new votes. Could it be this simple? Are they this stupid and evil?

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 12:06 PM

My bet is that was part of it. Every day it’s clearer that Øbama is counting on illegal alien voters, dead voters, and other voter fraud to take him over the top.

petefrt on June 26, 2012 at 1:10 PM

Look guys, this little troll thinks it’s going to rile me by being cutesy.

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 11:26 AM

Not at all, but seems I did.
Apologies.

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 1:17 PM

Issa is just pointing out Obama’s contention…

1) Either they lied saying the President and his direct reports didn’t know anything about it which makes Obama and/or Holder guilty of perjury, or
2) The President is using Executive Privilege illegally to delay investigation into corruption (which is specifically NOT protected under Executive Privilege).

dominigan on June 26, 2012 at 1:02 PM

Well maybe Issa will eventually shrink the realm of possibility to just one unsubstantiated accusation. For now we have the wide open range of as many as 2 suppositions to consider.
“Are you lying or are you not telling the truth?”

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 1:33 PM

That would give them justification for their final solution to immigration, and millions of new votes. Could it be this simple? Are they this stupid and evil?

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 12:06 PM

An excellent logical query.!

However, at the time the Dems had majority control over the house and senate and the wh, so they could have simply passed all sorts of favorable legislation to get immigrants here. One would think it would be pretty simple to just increase the allowable quotas.

No, you only need a deadly scheme like this if you are up to no good, like trying to change a fundamental rule of the Constitution.

orbitalair on June 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM

The WH is cornered and waiting for the MSM to bail them out.

Interestingly, spoke to two lib friends yesterday and both had not heard of F&F until this past week. They were already “armed” with the talking-point that “Bush started it.” So I sent them links of Holder’s testimony that he had no knowledge of F&F prior to a “few weeks” before the hearings began, with me pointing out that, in fact, had Bush started this program Holder would have made that clear at that moment and also claimed credit for stopping it. They realized that was probably true. Their response: “Well, that doesn’t mean Obama knew about it.” Idiots.

goflyers on June 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 1:33 PM

What do you consider yourself to be?

A causal part of the Socialist Left perhaps?

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 1:47 PM

Interestingly, spoke to two lib friends yesterday and both had not heard of F&F until this past week. They were already “armed” with the talking-point that “Bush started it.” So I sent them links of Holder’s testimony that he had no knowledge of F&F prior to a “few weeks” before the hearings began, with me pointing out that, in fact, had Bush started this program Holder would have made that clear at that moment and also claimed credit for stopping it. They realized that was probably true. Their response: “Well, that doesn’t mean Obama knew about it.” Idiots.

goflyers on June 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM

Did you inform them that Bush’s program, Operation Wide Receiver, was done with the knowledge and full co-operation of the Mexican Government?

Fast and Furious wasn’t.

The guns “walked” in Operation Wide Receiver were tracked.

The guns “walked” in Fast and Furious weren’t.

Operation Wide Receiver was shut down by the Bush administration when problems developed with it.

Fast and Furious wasn’t shut down until Agent Terry was killed and a whistleblower came forward.

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 1:49 PM

If Obama and Holder have nothing to hide, why are they working so hard to hide it? At worst it reeks of WH complicity in F&F. At best it is a cynical ploy to keep the truth (whatever that may be) on lockdown until after the election. Obama wouldn’t do that, would he?

UnrepentantCurmudgeon on June 26, 2012 at 1:50 PM

Well maybe Issa will eventually shrink the realm of possibility to just one unsubstantiated accusation. For now we have the wide open range of as many as 2 suppositions to consider.
“Are you lying or are you not telling the truth?”

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 1:33 PM

You aren’t even making sense.

Night Owl on June 26, 2012 at 1:51 PM

Cast of Characters:

Bill Newell: ATF Special Agent, “super-genius” who started Fast & Furious and Wide Reciever.

Kevin O’Reilly: friend and communicator with Bill Newell, a State Department employee seconded to the NSC, who was suddenly transferred to a State Department job in Iraq when the White House discovered that the Issa committee wanted to talk to him.

Dan Restrepo: O’Reilly’s boss, then Director of Western Hemisphere Affairs at the NSC, Center for American Progress alum.

Denis McDonough: then NSC’s head of Strategic Communication and since then promoted to the Deputy Director of the National Security Council, Center for American Progress alum.

J_Crater on June 26, 2012 at 10:29 AM

Late to the thread, but I have a different take on the EP move by Holder and Obama. It certainly was timed to cause delay, but I’m thinking that neither Holder not Obama think it will protect the vast majority of materials subject to the subpoenas

The Executive Privilege move is intended to prevent Congressional investigators from talking to O’Reilly, Restrepo, and McDonough.

We know Bill Newell, the Phoenix BATFE SAC, while doing everything in his power to mislead the committee, and committing perjury in the process, admitted to passing information directly to O’Reilly, and agreed that O’Reilly could pass that information on to Restrepo and McConough. Information that Newell himself admitted should have come through BATFE chain of command. But it couldn’t come through he BATFE chain of command, because the chain of command had been bypassed. The op was being run by Dennis Burke, the former aide to Janet Napolitano who was rewarded with the plum US Attorney Phoenix job. Newell ran Fast and Furious under Burke’s direct supervision, and the normal BATFE chain of command was bypassed, in an classic example of a time-honored technique used to pervert an agency’s resources to corrupt ends. Someone in the middle just might be honest, so the normal command structure is bypassed, the dirty work is done by a crew on the bottom end that has been isolated from the normal chain of command, and only the people at the very top know what they are up to.

O’Reilly, Restrepo and McConough are at the top of the list of potential witnesses who can connect Barack Obama to direct knowledge of F&F. Obama can always claim, ala Holder, that he didn’t read the memos. Much more problematic when a witness says, “I was in the room when he was told.”

And since his communications with Bill Newell came to light, O’Reilly has been transferred to State and given a new job. In Iraq. How convenient for Holder and Obama that he is out of reach. And while O’Reilly and his lawyer say O’Reilly is willing to testify, the White House counsel has refused to allow it.

The claim of Executive Privilege was intended to cause some delay and to confuse the issues, but that isn’t the main reason for its deployment. Blocking access to the three witnesses closest to Obama with actual knowledge of Fast and Furious is the main purpose.

novaculus on June 26, 2012 at 1:55 PM

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 1:49 PM

The “narrative” (hate that word) is that while Obama knew generally about the program in Feb 2009 (he did, after all, trumpet it in a speech in Mexico) he forgot about it from then on. Holder, meanwhile, having taken credit himself in 4/09 in Mexico, lost interest and paid no attention while a couple of ATF supervisors in Phoenix decided to let guns walk across the border, trample Mexican sovereignty and put American and Mexican lives at risk.

If all that is true, neither Obama nor Holder is fit for any level of executive responsibility. The good news is, we know it’s not true. They had a goal, and a plan, and if Terry had not gotten killed it all would now be infinitely worse. Competence in the service of evil is nothing to celebrate.

UnrepentantCurmudgeon on June 26, 2012 at 1:56 PM

White House response to Issa’s letter.

White House insists executive privilege right, despite Obama’s own admission of apparent ‘serious mistake’

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 1:29 PM

lol

It’s funny watching the pile of F&F crap keep growing, yet ‘unbiased observers’ like verbaluce keep saying, “Smell? What smell? Your imagination is in overdrive – you must be on LSD!” :)

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 1:56 PM

goflyers on June 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM

Did you inform them that Bush’s program, Operation Wide Receiver, was done with the knowledge and full co-operation of the Mexican Government?

Fast and Furious wasn’t.

The guns “walked” in Operation Wide Receiver were tracked.

The guns “walked” in Fast and Furious weren’t.

Operation Wide Receiver was shut down by the Bush administration when problems developed with it.

Fast and Furious wasn’t shut down until Agent Terry was killed and a whistleblower came forward.

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 1:49 PM

If Gunwalkergate can be set on Bush’s shoulders – like just about everything else that goes wrong with the Downgrade regime – why are they taking the political damage to hide something potentially embarrassing to someone else?

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 2:03 PM

You aren’t even making sense.

Night Owl on June 26, 2012 at 1:51 PM

At least people like verbaluce, UES, and Drew Lowell are providing some (unintentional) comic relief, though! :)

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 2:04 PM

What do you consider yourself to be?

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 1:47 PM

Hmmm…
I guess I could go with a rational progressive.
Many conservatives these days hold positions that clearly they would have ridiculed as ‘liberal’ previously, esp. re: social issues. So that the label ‘progressive’ works for me.
At times would have been a fitting word for Reagan.
Liberalism has been fairly attacked in the past for things like political correctness advocacy. But these days ‘liberal’ is just spat out as a curse word…and often at conservatives.
‘Conservative’ gets apologetically hyphenated in ways Liberal never is/was….’fiscal’, ‘social’, ‘right’, ‘compassionate’.
Even within it’s self-professed ranks, conservatives can’t agree what it means.
Right wing reactionaries wanna own the word and deny to it what they call ‘RINOs’.
But whatever…it’s all semantics in the end. My Dad calls himself a conservative. But he voted for Obama in ’08.
So he’s out of the club as far as the gatekeepers are concerned.
But he’s not concerned.

Got label for yourself, Chip?

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 2:07 PM

It would seem that you have more than a touch of paranoia there, chum. The site is legitmate and on the level despite your bluster.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM

.
Paranoia? Nope, just experience with people who own strip clubs and lessons learned from websites which start with capturing IP addresses.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM

Got label for yourself, Chip?

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 2:07 PM

Conservative.

I imagine you rational oppressives really needed to get away from the self-label of Liberal since most of your agenda is decidedly anti-liberty.

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 2:14 PM

As a “fyi”, for a website to capture visitors’ IP addresses is not a big deal, and can easily be done in secret – I suggest that it’s not worth worrying about at all…

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 2:15 PM

Oops I meant that for PolAgnostic

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Conservative.

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 2:14 PM

And don’t let other conservatives tell you otherwise, right?

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 2:21 PM

At least people like verbaluce, UES, and Drew Lowell are providing some (unintentional) comic relief, though! :)

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 2:04 PM

I’m sure the fun is just starting too. They seem to become more unhinged as the days go by.

Night Owl on June 26, 2012 at 2:27 PM

Duh!

MCGIRV on June 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM

What more do we need to know?

How about the name of the blockhead that took the failed Bush program Wide Receiver, then removed sensible things like electronic tracking chips in the guns, and informing Mexico of the plan so they can interdict,and re-name it F&F? Who is that guy, and was he fired?

Schwalbe Me-262 on June 26, 2012 at 2:36 PM

Civil Rights leaders throw support behind attorney general Eric Holder.
Holder has always run the justice department with a racial slant, ie, the new black panther party at the PA election center in 2008, and most recently, the NBPP bounty on Zimmerman.
Wait for the racist card. Wait.

AllahsNippleHair on June 26, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Wait for the racist card. Wait.

AllahsNippleHair on June 26, 2012 at 2:37 PM

No need to wait.

Predictable: Civil Rights “Leaders” Pull Race Card to Defend Eric Holder

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 2:44 PM

Paranoia? Nope, just experience with people who own strip clubs and lessons learned from websites which start with capturing IP addresses.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM

You know, I don’t take kindly to you making unfounded insinutations about my site (which is legitimate, despite your so-called ‘experience’) simply because I suggested that you quit telling others what to post.

You are obviously prone to overreaction, paranoia, and you have difficulty staying on topic.

Seriously, you need to grow up.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 2:45 PM

Conservative.

I imagine you rational oppressives really needed to get away from the self-label of Liberal since most of your agenda is decidedly anti-liberty.

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 2:14 PM

And don’t let other conservatives tell you otherwise, right?

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 2:21 PM

Huh?

The label is based on those who follow a core set of values.

Does it bother you that oppressives had to change their labeling since they were ‘Outed’ as being anti-liberty?

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 2:49 PM

Baxter Greene on June 26, 2012 at 11:40 AM

(taking break from vacation)

+7&%…!!!

Seven Percent Solution on June 26, 2012 at 2:50 PM

No need to wait.

Predictable: Civil Rights “Leaders” Pull Race Card to Defend Eric Holder

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 2:44 PM

“disgusting” does not come close to being descriptive enough – I wish those worse-than-useless degenerates could be sued for defamation somehow.

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 2:55 PM

The label is based on those who follow a core set of values.

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 2:49 PM

And you passed the purity test?
Well then you get to wear the hat.

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM

Predictable: Civil Rights “Leaders” Pull Race Card to Defend Eric Holder

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 2:44 PM

I want to add my prediction that this will backfire on those race-baiters/hustlers, as well as any other supportive Dem, when Holder inevitably ends up buckling under the overwhelming evidence against him…

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 3:10 PM

Bizarro No. 1 on June 26, 2012 at 2:55 PM

Chris Stirewalt (sp?) was on with Megyn Kelly earlier talking about this. He said the Dems are taking a big chance pulling the race card to defend Fast and Furious, because white Americans are getting tired of being called “racists” if they disagree with any thing done by this administration. Even “moderate Democrats”.

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 3:10 PM

verbaluce on June 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM

I take it you passed the national socialist left’s purity test.

Chip on June 26, 2012 at 3:13 PM

In case readers didn’t already realize it … it’s on.

Yes, it is!

tom on June 26, 2012 at 3:29 PM

You know, I don’t take kindly to you making unfounded insinutations about my site (which is legitimate, despite your so-called ‘experience’) simply because I suggested that you quit telling others what to post.

You are obviously prone to overreaction, paranoia, and you have difficulty staying on topic.

Seriously, you need to grow up.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 2:45 PM

.
Hmmmmmmm, let’s review …

Trolls are pretty well established with mindes of Cement, all mixed up and permenantly set. (Or Open Minded if you ask them.)

jaydee_007 on June 26, 2012 at 11:19 AM

.
If a lurker can not spot the troll, know the troll for what it is and retain confidence in their own thinking … why, I do believe you have just described a liberal!

Which leads to the second point in bold.

Unless you are a Hot Air staff sock puppet looking to drive up page hits, feeding the troll only results in everyone (members and visitors alike) having to read through endless, mindless drivel rather than being able to focus on the intelligent discussions a members-comments only blog is supposed to be able to deliver.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 11:46 AM

.
I made an observation regarding another person’s comment and you decided to appoint yourself the Lord of What May or May Not Be Said By Whom

Perhaps you should focus on your own posts and quit trying to tell others what is or isn’t acceptable.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:04 PM


Ironic when you look back at it, isn’t it?

Which peaked my interest so I did some clicking and noted

So, in your world, you get to comment about anyone and anything but any comment on you is over the line?
Is that where you want to go?

Interesting blog link via your username, by the way.

Lots of strippers in bikini videos – I wonder if anyone from Hot Air might think letting you link back to it is not in Hot Air’s best interests?

It is also capturing visitor’s IP addresses – I am wondering if it is doing more than that for folks who are not using proxies, re-routing, firewalls and other security measures?

Do you own Deja Vu? – or are you just a frequent visitor?

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 12:30 PM

.
Anything I stated is true. I asked questions on things I did not take the time to find out the answers to but thought might be of general interest to others who might click on your username.

You really did not like questions. I know because you have not directly addressed them.

It would seem that you have more than a touch of paranoia there, chum. The site is legitmate and on the level despite your bluster.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM

.
Hmmmmm, more hostility. Two more observations from my end.

Paranoia? Nope, just experience with people who own strip clubs and lessons learned from websites which start with capturing IP addresses.

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM

.
Which brings us back to your most recent quote up at the top.

So, since your site is legitimate, how about you explain for everyone the legitimate purpose served by your site capturing the IP address of every visitor to the site?

PolAgnostic on June 26, 2012 at 4:04 PM

PolAgnostic,

Listen up, genius:

1. Our site does not track IP addresses. The hosting service (Squarespace) does. We don’t even require users to login to comment. However, we do ask for an email address of those users who do choose to register, so that we can confirm the the account-nothing more.

Squarespace, our service provider, DOES track IP addresses, specifically to block spammers at the IP level. This is standard practice among service providers. There is nothing nefarious about it despite your unwarranted suspicions.

2. The section you referenced earlier has literally thousands of postings on various topics. The fact that you focused on a couple of posts about strippers says more about you than it does about the site.

3. The fact that you went through such great lengths to try to disparage me simply because I suggested you stop telling others what to post…

Perhaps you should focus on your own posts and quit trying to tell others what is or isn’t acceptable.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 12:04 PM

…indicates at the very least an unhealthy obsession on your part, and strongly suggests sociopathic tendencies.

Seriously—give it a rest. If you persist in this line of attack, I will forward this conversation to Hot Air and let them deal with it, because, in my opinion, you are far out bounds here, especially in light of the original context.

zoyclem on June 26, 2012 at 4:36 PM

When Obama gave Holder EP, Obama showed his hand. I imagine Obama wanted to throw Holder under the bus but Holder threatened to drag him down with him if he does. It’s a miracle Holder hasn’t had a “accident” yet.

Yakko77 on June 26, 2012 at 4:53 PM

Of course Obama had much to do with F & F. It was probably his idea and initiative that got it started: there are videos of presidential hopeful Obama arguing that a Mexican cartel gun tracking program should be created.

Are we suppose to be stupid enough to believe that his Justice Dept. would engage in just such an major activity, with international consequences, without his knowledge & go-ahead?

And is the public suppose to be stupid enough to think that their Congress should not get to the bottom of this murderous program?

The Democrats seem to think so.

Chessplayer on June 26, 2012 at 5:09 PM

When Obama gave Holder EP, Obama showed his hand. I imagine Obama wanted to throw Holder under the bus but Holder threatened to drag him down with him if he does. It’s a miracle Holder hasn’t had a “accident” yet.

Yakko77 on June 26, 2012 at 4:53 PM

(Puts Tinfoil Stetson on)

Well, consider who Holder worked for earlier.

The Clintons.

For all we know, all 3 of them just might possibly have O’bama’s FBI Files? Or those of his parents?

Del Dolemonte on June 26, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 26, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Maybe Holder pulled a ‘Reno’ on little Bammie?

(From 2010) Dick Morris Bombshell: Reno Told Clinton She Stays On or She Blows Whistle on Waco

Valerie Jarrett has to have some bulging files hidden somewhere too.

slickwillie2001 on June 26, 2012 at 7:01 PM

White House response to Issa’s letter.

White House insists executive privilege right, despite Obama’s own admission of apparent ‘serious mistake’

Flora Duh on June 26, 2012 at 1:29 PM

and here we see why Issa wrote a letter. Because captain thin skin’s worst enemy is his own mouth and there is no way he or his handlers would be able to let something like this go by.

Fighton03 on June 26, 2012 at 7:56 PM

Just a hint at why Obama so stupidly invoked executive privilege.

Hezbollah training bases near Tijuana and Nogales were in need of 2K to 3K US military grade weapons. The narcotraficantes and the ATF were just camels fulfilling an arms order from Hassan Nasrallah that was placed with our C-in-C, since the massive shipments of US weapons sent to the PA could be easily traced. The political “gun control” scenario was a first level cover story, for the MSM to bite on. Obama, Jarrett and Emanuel issued the orders. Guess how the money was laundered and who it eventually went to….

And we one thought Iran- Contra was a big deal…lol

ursa5000 on June 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM

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