Quotes of the day

posted at 8:01 pm on June 24, 2012 by Allahpundit

With the Supreme Court likely to render judgment on President Obama’s health care law this week, the White House and Congress find themselves in a position that many advocates of the legislation once considered almost unimaginable.

In passing the law two years ago, Democrats entertained little doubt that it was constitutional. The White House held a conference call to tell reporters that any legal challenge, as one Obama aide put it, “will eventually fail and shouldn’t be given too much credence in the press.”…

“It led to some people taking it too lightly,” said a Congressional lawyer who like others involved in drafting the law declined to be identified before the ruling. “It shouldn’t strike anybody as a close call,” the lawyer added, but “given where we are now, do I wish we had focused even more on this? I guess I would say yes.”…

Adversaries said the law’s proponents had been too attentive to liberal academics who shaped public discussion. “There’s very little diversity in the legal academy among law professors,” said Randy E. Barnett, a Georgetown University law professor and a leading thinker behind the challenge. “So they’re in an echo chamber listening to people who agree with them.”

***

Some prominent legal scholars say a series of tactical decisions by President Obama’s legal team may have hurt the chances of saving his landmark health-care legislation from being gutted by Supreme Court conservatives…

Obama, a former constitutional law instructor, and White House lawyers helped shape a legal strategy essentially portraying health care as a unique marketplace that Congress, under the Constitution’s interstate commerce clause, could regulate by imposing the requirement that consumers buy insurance before receiving treatment or pay a penalty…

The critics say the administration failed to fully develop arguments tailored to the court’s conservative members, who often look to the original intentions of the Founding Fathers for guidance. The critics represent a small but influential group of scholars who believe that this “originalist” thinking — typically dismissed by the left as outmoded and dangerous to modern precedents such as the Roe v. Wade abortion ruling — could be used effectively to defend liberal laws. Some say that Obama, who has criticized the originalist view, and lawyers in his administration may have decided for ideological reasons to steer clear of a conservative-seeming argument — a suggestion deemed absurd by administration officials.

***

[E]ven if the White House is a fortress of message discipline, it cannot disguise the potential heartbreak for Mr. Obama, who managed to achieve a decades-old Democratic dream despite long odds and at steep cost.

If he loses both his law and re-election, many will conclude “that he bet on his major reform, and the Supreme Court defeated it, and he lost his hold on the presidency,” Robert Dallek, the presidential historian, said in an interview…

As the brutal fight continued, the president sacrificed more and more in its name: an overhaul of energy and environmental laws, greater focus on economic issues, some of his own popularity and that of House Democrats, who eventually lost their hard-won majority. “Michelle and I are perfectly comfortable if we’re only here one term if we feel like we really accomplished something,” he told aides…

If the court strikes down the mandate and Mr. Obama wins in November, he could face one last version of his perpetual choice on health care: would he settle, learning to live with a sharply edited law? (Given that Republicans see the bill as a signature piece of big-government overreach, he might have no choice.) Or would he expend yet more precious capital on health care?

***

But the fact is that if the mandate falls next week, nothing will happen. Then the next week, nothing will happen. Nothing again the week after that, and nothing will continue to happen for the next 70 weeks, which is roughly when the bulk of the law takes effect. In the meantime, Congress can do something, or it can do nothing, Democratically controlled states can step in, or not. If lawmakers move aggressively and fix it in advance, great. If they don’t and then in 2014 the reforms start to wobble, Congress will do something, or a lot of states will pass their own laws to broaden the risk pools, and things will settle down. That’s my hunch at least — that if the policy becomes unsustainable, then the politics of not fixing it will be unsustainable too.

Presumably that’s why President Obama’s telling his supporters he might have to “revisit” health care in his second term, rather than, say, in the middle of the campaign, when he’ll probably want to avoid using the word “mandate” altogether. If he loses, then of course the mandate’s probably dead. But in that case, it stands to reason that the mandate and much of the rest of the law will vanish anyway, regardless of what the Court does. Which I guess is a long way of saying there’s an appeal to both approaches but it’s the sort of problem that, perhaps inelegantly, will eventually solve itself.

***

I expect, as I think most of us do, an unfriendly decision (from the Democratic point of view) on the health-care law. Can’t yet say how unfriendly; at the very least, an overturning of the individual mandate, and maybe more. Assuming that’s correct, the question immediately becomes how the president and the Democrats should respond. There’s very little they can do legislatively. But I’ll be watching for rhetoric, tone, even body language. And on those counts, they had damn well better dispense with the usual liberal woe-is-me hand-wringing and shoulder slumping and come out swinging. They had better communicate to their base that they stand for something, it’s important to them, and they’re pissed. And if they do it the right way, they can make the Supreme Court an issue this fall in a way that might even persuade some swing voters that the court overstepped its bounds. I’d go so far as to say that an aggressive response can reset and reframe the whole health-care debate, once Americans have had their minds focused on this by a blatantly partisan court…

[Obama] needs to stand up there and get mad. The law may be unpopular, but he and the Democrats are stuck with it, and being stuck with it, they need to stick by it. Almost never before in American history has a Supreme Court taken a law duly passed by the people’s representatives and in just two years’ time invalidated it. If that isn’t legislating from the bench, what is? Mr. Cool needs to get Hot. Against unanimous and ferocious opposition, and in the face of blatant lies about what this bill would and would not do, he and the Democrats came up with a way for people with cancer and diabetes and what have you to get the treatment they need and not be either turned away or gouged. He’s proud of that, he ought to say, and by God, he’s going to fight for it. That provision of the law is wildly popular—85 percent supported that, in a late-March New York Times survey. If you can’t play offense with 85 percent of the people behind you, I give up.

***

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

***

Via Mediaite.


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There must be 50 ways the GOP can betray you.

Just slip out the back Jack
Make a little plan Stan

SparkPlug on June 25, 2012 at 1:23 AM

Kool, I have a confession. I knew you had missed it, but I was enjoying watching your antics with him so much, well…………….. Anyhow I was watching a good bit. So I would have stopped you before you got the hammer. ; )

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:24 AM

Out…

Gohawgs on June 25, 2012 at 1:25 AM

OK, just finished watching “Falling Skies“, what did I miss here?

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:13 AM

… umm

OmahaConservative has been standing with a peep, a pastor, against some harsh. John the Libertarian has stood ground against literal interpretation of Genesis, briefly, though pretty respectfully for someone having to stand ground, I think. Dire had briefly meddled in that whole “we should be prepared either way” thing — but has since changed positions, opting for “we should stick with positive thoughts” thing.

There have been several smaller skirmishes.

I’ve been quietly coming up to speed on some recent hot Jew on Jew action, here, here, and here.

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

By the way, I have been meaning to ask you about your nic, are you a physicist? Proton, anti-proton entangled pair?

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:20 AM

A non-practicing mathematician, you could say.

As to the nic, I consider order to be a fundamental aspect of the (mathematical) universe and, instead of starting with unordered sets and deriving ordered pairs, I prefer to take ordered pairs as primitive elements (though “primordial” was used for effect) and use randomness to generate unordered sets. After all, the fact is that we only know order, ourselves, and have never seen anything unordered (though quantum theory makes the claim that perfect randomness is physically realized in the observation of a quantum system and quantum computing claims to use it).

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Isn’t that mandatory for Lefties?

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:19 AM

If that a-hole’s intent on yesterday’s Fast and Furious post was to set people off he did. I and others should not fall for the bait but I refuse to let nonsense stand. I will never convince them that they might be wrong but that’s not my intent anymore. Not one dem voted to hold Holder in contempt—not one.

My wife asked me why I argue with my father-in-law rather than letting it go. I responded that if I’m sitting there watching football and he says inflammatory political stuff just because he can, I want him to be as pissed as he made me. So I’m juvenile, what else is new? :)

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:19 AM

I wasn’t raise in church, my dad was a paraplegic and my mom didn’t drive, so what little I got was from neighbors and my aunt when she visited in the summer. After I was an adult I was confirmed with my mom in the Episcopal church but was soon disenchanted with that. I wanted to know what God expected of me through the teachings of the Bible but all the “sermons” were for money for missionaries. I tend to like traditional services and not much on Hellfire and Brimstone since I don’t feel the need to be frightened into doing what is right. That said, I know that different people are given comfort and inspiration from different deliveries of the message so this isn’t meant as a criticism just empathizing with your experience.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:29 AM

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:22 AM

Don’t do that. If its any help, I have your funeral song too. ; )

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:29 AM

My friend Norm has now developed pneumonia and is in ICU. Please step up those prayers…

OmahaConservative on June 25, 2012 at 1:15 AM

Will do!!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:30 AM

Gohawgs, I delivered your message to cane_loader.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:30 AM

OmahaConservative on June 25, 2012 at 1:18 AM

We know. It’s cool. BTW, Last year about this time I hit the emergency room for a 5 day stay with pnuemonia. Not fun, but, treatable. I imagine your friend is suffering from some fluid buildup because he can’t breathe properly with the rib fractures. Passive congestion plus some bacterial action. It’s a serious complication but they really do a fantastic job with it nowdays. Tons of steroids and big time antibiotics. Lots of inhalation therapy. Try not to fret too much.

a capella on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

A non-practicing mathematician, you could say.

As to the nic, I consider order to be a fundamental aspect of the (mathematical) universe and, instead of starting with unordered sets and deriving ordered pairs, I prefer to take ordered pairs as primitive elements (though “primordial” was used for effect) and use randomness to generate unordered sets. After all, the fact is that we only know order, ourselves, and have never seen anything unordered (though quantum theory makes the claim that perfect randomness is physically realized in the observation of a quantum system and quantum computing claims to use it).

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Hmmm, CHAOS theory?

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:07 AM

What pull the old stuff up? Two ways primarily, first keep anything copied off onto another app, it includes the good things and the bad things.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:20 AM

I used to keep a Note on the desktop of problems here, IDs, remarks, etc. and eventually I gave up and then deleted the thing (depressing reference). Now I really try to keep in the moment, so to speak, and opine without regard for people who maintain grudges and seem mostly intent on following others around with some sort of vengeful goal/s. Life’s too short, seize the comment.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

I want him to be as pissed as he made me. So I’m juvenile, what else is new? :)

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

I don’t think it is juvenile, I might not react every time but I don’t like being taken as a sucker.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:32 AM

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Ah… I see said the blind man. ;)

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:32 AM

If the account of creation is not true, then what other parts of scripture are then only fable? Creation is not just part of Genesis, it is a fundamental tenet of the whole of scripture.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:18 AM

Many scholars agree the Old Testament was ascribed to parchment in and around 500 B.C. That means that everything prior to then was part of an oral tradition. Story telling. So things get sketchy and hazy prior to the dedication of words on paper.

The primary myths of a culture are its expressions of its most highly-valued tenets. Every culture has its creation myth. Does it not make you wonder why the creation myth of the Hebrews focused on a Tree of Life and a Tree of Knowledge, and that disobedience to a Father Figure was a fall from grace that resulted in a “sadder but wiser” condition? This is an expression of the human condition.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:33 AM

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:29 AM

LOL! I’m such a weirdo.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:33 AM

A non-practicing mathematician, you could say.
As to the nic, I consider order to be a fundamental aspect of the (mathematical) universe and, instead of starting with unordered sets and deriving ordered pairs, I prefer to take ordered pairs as primitive elements (though “primordial” was used for effect) and use randomness to generate unordered sets. After all, the fact is that we only know order, ourselves, and have never seen anything unordered (though quantum theory makes the claim that perfect randomness is physically realized in the observation of a quantum system and quantum computing claims to use it).
ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Set theorist?

aryeung on June 25, 2012 at 1:34 AM

I miss sharrukin.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:34 AM

My wife asked me why I argue with my father-in-law rather than letting it go. I responded that if I’m sitting there watching football and he says inflammatory political stuff just because he can, I want him to be as pissed as he made me. So I’m juvenile, what else is new? :)

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

Why should you let it go? He obviously isn’t, otherwise he wouldn’t be making inflammatory political comments around you.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:36 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:23 AM

I must point out that I am still looking for a bag with some purchases I made the other day also. They are going to put me in a home before too long.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:36 AM

Lourdes, I’m mostly just sentimental, life is short.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:37 AM

I don’t think it is juvenile, I might not react every time but I don’t like being taken as a sucker.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:32 AM

lol, Flora duh earlier said that she is so furious about F&F that she is ready to just go and punch a lib for general principles. I concur. If a scandal like this cannot bring us together to find the truth wherever it leads then we are in a bad way.

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

Lourdes, I’m mostly just sentimental, life is short.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:37 AM

I sometimes wonder if I am missing out by not being sentimental, but usually dismiss the thought, because life is indeed short, to short to waste time being sentimental about the past, but hey, that’s just me.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

I wanted to know what God expected of me through the teachings of the Bible but all the “sermons” were for money for missionaries. I tend to like traditional services and not much on Hellfire and Brimstone since I don’t feel the need to be frightened into doing what is right. That said, I know that different people are given comfort and inspiration from different deliveries of the message so this isn’t meant as a criticism just empathizing with your experience.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:29 AM

That’s a shame and not on your part. You have the right approach, what does God expect and how can one determine what He expects? A sermon serves two purposes, first, to expose the Law, that which God demands and which none of us, as sinful humans are capable of fulfilling. Sometimes that revealing of our sins may be to show us that we are holding too tightly to the material gifts that we enjoy and are worshiping them rather than God. However, after showing us our sins, the second purpose of the sermon is to expound upon the Gospel (i.e, the good news) that Christ has fulfilled the law for us and therefore our sins have been atoned for and that the only thing needed is to believe in that forgiveness. One should leave a service knowing those things, with the renewed desire to live a God pleasing life and to be eager to share that good news with the rest of the world.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:39 AM

Kool, I have a confession. I knew you had missed it, but I was enjoying watching your antics with him so much, well…………….. Anyhow I was watching a good bit. So I would have stopped you before you got the hammer. ; )

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:24 AM

…me?…I don’t worry about the hammer!…if it falls..it falls…despite the stuff I’ve done—-I’ve never got a message in my email paddling me yet…like some others I know.
The only time I’ve written the tips line is when canopfor…predator…and the other guy were put in purgatory…then, I became a protesting penile progressive leftist lunatic !

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:40 AM

jeez edith, I mean Cindy, I must have pressed the wrong key, intended to block quote.

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:40 AM

lol, Flora duh earlier said that she is so furious about F&F that she is ready to just go and punch a lib for general principles. I concur. If a scandal like this cannot bring us together to find the truth wherever it leads then we are in a bad way.

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

ROTFLMAO… I remember her saying that other night. Sadly, I understand what we are up against. It is an ideology that I personally consider the most evil and vile ideology ever conceived of by man. It is the ideology, that “The End Justifies the Means” and the left has totally 100 percent embraced it.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:41 AM

LOL! I’m such a weirdo.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:33 AM

I have a friend who always says to me, You’ll burn in heII for that. I always reply, at least my friends will be with me. I then look straight into his eyes. It’s a little good humor between us. He is very Evangelical.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:41 AM

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:34 AM

I miss a lot of folks. Spiritof1776 and although I know this isn’t exactly right, jinx’sdad.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:42 AM

That said, I know that different people are given comfort and inspiration from different deliveries of the message so this isn’t meant as a criticism just empathizing with your experience.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:29 AM

Yeah, I don’t begrudge them much. I attended the “contemporary service” with my mother, and she was trying to read my expressions the entire time. Afterward, I didn’t say a thing about it. Finally she pressed me, and I said, “You taught me a long time ago that if I didn’t have anything nice to say, I should just say nothing at all.”

Just not my cup of tea, that’s all.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:42 AM

So I’m juvenile, what else is new? :)

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

..me!…I LIKE your attitude!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

Your a good guy Kool, I don’t care what anybody says. ; )

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

I assume everyone is also getting their minds around the fact that the SCOTUS will uphold Obiecare??!!??..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 12:55 AM

Where did this come from? From everything I heard I thought the prevailing thought was that at a minimum that SCOTUS would strike down the mandate and possibly the entire thing.

I’ll say this, if Kennedy turns and votes to uphold this he has NO business being a judge!!

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

Excellent post!..I’m glad you made the turn!!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:44 AM

Why should you let it go? He obviously isn’t, otherwise he wouldn’t be making inflammatory political comments around you.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:36 AM

Coupled with the fact that things are much more serious than say since 2000. My BS tolerance level goes down month by month. :)

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:45 AM

After all, the fact is that we only know order, ourselves, and have never seen anything unordered (though quantum theory makes the claim that perfect randomness is physically realized in the observation of a quantum system and quantum computing claims to use it).

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:28 AM

But how can you say we have never seen anything unordered?

Oh. Wait. That’s not what you mean. That’s why you answered me when I abbreviated your name {1,2} the way you did …

But the set within which any two things might be said to be ordered, the aggregate, is always a larger frame of reference. A thing is not intrinsically ordered. It’s only ordered because the “exterior” frame of reference says it is.

The only thing that could be unordered in that sense … would be God.

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

Can’t find fault with that. Multitasking is hard. ; )

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

I’m sorry!..I was just playing devil’s advocate for a second!..My bad!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

lol, Flora duh earlier said that she is so furious about F&F that she is ready to just go and punch a lib for general principles. I concur. If a scandal like this cannot bring us together to find the truth wherever it leads then we are in a bad way.

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

That’s always a good idea, those freeloaders deserve it :)

I think we should all write letters to the editor and tell anyone who’ll listen about Fast and Furious. You’d be amazed at how many still don’t even know about it!

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:18 AM

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:33 AM

My thoughts, ever so briefly here, on Creation and how it is presented in the Bible: I do regard the Bible as the Word of God but I don’t believe it is blasphemous to think a bit more deeply about the concepts that are communicated in it.

For example, I believe in the Creationist statement but I do question why human beings are determined to imprint on God — who they worship as “all powerful” enough to have created what He has — to imprint on God our human limitations.

What’s an hour to God? What’s “a day”? Humans insist our human definitions, our human understandings, of those quantities or measurements are, indeed, also God’s. In other words, we as humans define “a day” as 24 hours but why insist that that’s God’s definition?

If we do believe that God’s limitless (and I do), and all that is and ever was and ever shall be (I do believe that, too), then why assign human limitations to Him? He is Creator of everything, he can consider “a day” to be five billion of what we human beings think of as 24 hours.

And about the creation of Man: the Bible — God’s Word — says that God used “mud” to create Adam, the first Man. It just does NOT say HOW he did that. So denying that there is a physical science methodology to how and what God has done, is doing and will do seems contrary to belief in Him as Creator, capable of “doing it all and anything at all” per God’s own determination, imagination and desire.

I find it contrary to faith to be ironclad that what we understand as Man, as human beings, “has to be” that which and what God does or defines. We are not equals with God, our understandings are so far limited compared with His that it’s a contradiction to force human limitations — human definitions, quantities and measurements and absolutes of methods — on God. To do so then renders God some “human in the sky” idea that runs, of course, contradictory to the belief that He is, indeed, God.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM | Delete | Delete and Ban

I would feel a lot better if Ginsberg hadn’t decided to play little word games with us the other day. In my paranoid moments, I almost think she was taunting. She needs to be put out to pasture.

a capella on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

for people who maintain grudges and seem mostly intent on following others around with some sort of vengeful goal/s. Life’s too short, seize the comment.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

…………Oh Oh!….lord forgive me!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:47 AM

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:29 AM

That’s a shame and not on your part. You have the right approach, what does God expect and how can one determine what He expects? A sermon serves two purposes, first, to expose the Law, that which God demands and which none of us, as sinful humans are capable of fulfilling. Sometimes that revealing of our sins may be to show us that we are holding too tightly to the material gifts that we enjoy and are worshiping them rather than God. However, after showing us our sins, the second purpose of the sermon is to expound upon the Gospel (i.e, the good news) that Christ has fulfilled the law for us and therefore our sins have been atoned for and that the only thing needed is to believe in that forgiveness. One should leave a service knowing those things, with the renewed desire to live a God pleasing life and to be eager to share that good news with the rest of the world.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:39 AM

I can tell you exactly what god wants and expects of you as per the Holy Scriptures. It has been summed up twice in very simple statements.

First in Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

And second in Matthew 22:37-39

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:47 AM

Excellent post!

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:44 AM

Man oh man, have I missed those words. You stopped saying them the night I poked a little fun, and I’ve been sorry ever since!

p.s., I think that was about the time unseen accused Bachmann of trying to turn a profit off of foster kids…

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:39 AM

Thanks, that is beautifully put. I see God everywhere, so I don’t really understand non-believers. But I must tell you that I am not a person who will try to persuade another adult. Whether it is from insecurity of knowledge or stubbornness, I’m not going to argue with willful denial.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

I’m sorry!..I was just playing devil’s advocate for a second!..My bad!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Not funny !! :)

This is too important. I think the mandate will be struck down, I’m really hoping for the whole thing…

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

..me!…I LIKE your attitude!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

thx, and you keep up the heavy artillery fire on all the special kids that like to start trouble. :)

They must like to be dazed and confused. Hornet Sting is probably the master on responses.

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:49 AM

I’ll say this, if Kennedy turns and votes to uphold this he has NO business being a judge!!
LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

If Kennedy has any desire to be remembered as some sort of libertarian, he’ll strike something down.

aryeung on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

Hmmm, CHAOS theory?

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

No. It’s in the area of mathematical foundations – the framework upon which math is built. One can take order as a primitive concept or one can construct order. I think order is primitive in nature.

What’s interesting is that you can easily go from unordered space to generating order but it’s very difficult to go from order and create something unordered which is why it’s so difficult to generate truly random numbers, though as I said, quantum computing claims to have access to totally unordered, random sequences … which I find kind of hard to believe, really.

Anyway, I always had a thing about the concept that order is the most primitive characteristic and the name sounded kind of neat for a nic.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

…I was up with you all night one night over a year ago…and you know what… I like you!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

Many scholars agree the Old Testament was ascribed to parchment in and around 500 B.C. That means that everything prior to then was part of an oral tradition. Story telling. So things get sketchy and hazy prior to the dedication of words on paper.

The primary myths of a culture are its expressions of its most highly-valued tenets. Every culture has its creation myth. Does it not make you wonder why the creation myth of the Hebrews focused on a Tree of Life and a Tree of Knowledge, and that disobedience to a Father Figure was a fall from grace that resulted in a “sadder but wiser” condition? This is an expression of the human condition.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:33 AM

From your response above, it seems that you are placing your faith in scholars whose fundamental axiom is that the Bible is myth. You further are essentially dismissing the biblical doctrine of inspiration (For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.) From what I read in your statement above, you are essentially holding to a “faith tradition” that has some nuggets of morality and a few proverbs from which to glean some human wisdom, but no fundamental acknowledgment of God or the existence of God.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

Just not my cup of tea, that’s all.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:42 AM

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

human definitions, quantities and measurements and absolutes of methods — on God.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Like I’ve said before: God is a symphony that we’re trying to understand by plinking on a toy piano.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:51 AM

Lourdes, I’m mostly just sentimental, life is short.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:37 AM

I sometimes wonder if I am missing out by not being sentimental, but usually dismiss the thought, because life is indeed short, to short to waste time being sentimental about the past, but hey, that’s just me.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

Both of you are sweet people. In my case, I just grew tired of copying things and saving them and then the Notes grew and grew and…too little time in one day/night to keep at all that with other life demands and requirements.

So now I just do the tasks and try to appreciate the moment. I keep a few records even now as Notes on the desktop but they’re utility-sorts and record-keeping things I need to manage my own sites and then I’m out of time, space and desire to record anything more…

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:52 AM

Well, in the words of Dan Quayle, “The mind is a terrible thing.”

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 12:53 AM

Actually, no that was Bob Nelson, from his infamous routine at Dangerfields’ in 1984

Harbingeing on June 25, 2012 at 1:54 AM

Anyway, I always had a thing about the concept that order is the most primitive characteristic and the name sounded kind of neat for a nic.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

Dude… That is Chaos theory. Chaos theory basically postulated that their is no such thing as random disorder, but that everything is defined as random according to the reference point from which it is observed. Change the point of reference that it’s observed from and the order becomes obvious.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:54 AM

p.s., I think that was about the time unseen accused Bachmann of trying to turn a profit off of foster kids…

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

…that was a little crazy…we all have our moments…I’m happy to see unseen posting more regularly lately.

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:56 AM

human definitions, quantities and measurements and absolutes of methods — on God.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Like I’ve said before: God is a symphony that we’re trying to understand by plinking on a toy piano.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:51 AM

Yes, John, very beautifully stated there.

Only I tend to think we haven’t yet created the “toy piano” and are still using two sticks to hit against some rocks. I base that observation on who and what I see daily, what with the human condition. Then there’s the one guy or gal who is whistling a lovely tune walking down the beach but they soon have to start running and stop whistling because of the mob running them down…

Our human condition seems to be regressing, is my point. I know individuals perceive insights and great things but I see the average among us growing “deconstructively,” not back into some previous state but into some sort of far more crude, profane, decrepit state than ever was: “new” but worse.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:56 AM

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM

I read an article back when Justice Sotomayor was being confirmed that was very telling about her choice and Justice Kennedy. I haven’t been able to find it since but the gist of it was that she was chosen because she is a nag. They felt that her talent of haranguing people into submission was just what the Left needed to keep Justice Kennedy in line. The funny thing was that soon after her installation, Justice Kennedy made a remark that would indicate that he was on to them and wasn’t likely to give them the satisfaction falling for the tactic or retiring either. It was funny.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:57 AM

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:47 AM

You are absolutely correct. … and since we know that we cannot meet that demand, we are saved only because Christ himself did that perfectly for us: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

and

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:58 AM

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

Ahh the memories!..I will start using it again!..:)

PS..I remember unseen and that thread!..The guy was off his rocker!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:58 AM

…………Oh Oh!….lord forgive me!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:47 AM

CARPE DIEM KOOLAID!

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 1:59 AM

Oh, Kool while it’s out. My response to UES.

I apologize.

Uppereastside on June 11, 2012 at 9:04 PM

Feeling a bit of the breeze on the back of your neck, all covered in sweat.

Bmore on June 11, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 1:59 AM

Dude… That is Chaos theory. Chaos theory basically postulated that their is no such thing as random disorder, but that everything is defined as random according to the reference point from which it is observed. Change the point of reference that it’s observed from and the order becomes obvious.
SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:54 AM

He’s referring to something much more foundational.

aryeung on June 25, 2012 at 2:00 AM

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

I’m with you!..Again I am sorry for the slip up!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 2:00 AM

Oh. Wait. That’s not what you mean. That’s why you answered me when I abbreviated your name {1,2} the way you did …

I told you that you were very close. In math they define ordered sets out of unordered sets by

[a,b] := {{a}, {a,b}}

That was Weiner’s definition. There are others, but it serves the task. Event though the set has no ordering of elements, itself, it distinguishes the “a” element and “b” element so that you can always know which is “first”. I thought your attempt was pretty good (though it was a little bit of a cheat :)

But the set within which any two things might be said to be ordered, the aggregate, is always a larger frame of reference. A thing is not intrinsically ordered. It’s only ordered because the “exterior” frame of reference says it is.

In set theory, there is no order to the elements. It’s a very important part of set theory. But everything we see is always ordered, to some extent because rational thinking requires order, itself.

The only thing that could be unordered in that sense … would be God.

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

In some manner of speaking, I would say “yes”. I happen to be one who believes that mathematics does hold certain truths and secrets that can be found in no other human pursuit or observation. Math is the language of perfection, which we also never see. Mathematical models are never identical to reality. Not even the model of the number 1, as we have never seen a closed system of any sort (even though all of physics calculations are based on closed systems). Physicists like to claim that the universe is a closed system (though with parallel universes even that idea is pretty much blown away even in the theory). But in math, perfect concepts do exist perfectly and the have characteristics and traits and form (form because everything in math still has order, unless you throw a randomizer in, which is itself perfectly random!).

It’s all very fascinating stuff, I think.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 2:00 AM

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:57 AM

That’s good news, will make me sleep a bit better tonight!

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 2:00 AM

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

I’m a bit sentimental but try very very hard not to wear my heart on my sleeve. I say we should all be happy with who we are and only change what we want to change. My changes are in pounds.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:01 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:52 AM

I enjoy your comments!!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 2:02 AM

But the set within which any two things might be said to be ordered, the aggregate, is always a larger frame of reference. A thing is not intrinsically ordered. It’s only ordered because the “exterior” frame of reference says it is.

The only thing that could be unordered in that sense … would be God.

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

A-HA! Just what I was thinking…> Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:56 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:02 AM

though as I said, quantum computing claims to have access to totally unordered, random sequences … which I find kind of hard to believe, really.

ThePrimordialOrderedPair on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

That’s not that difficult to believe once you start to grasp some of the intricacies of quantum field effect. Any quantum particle can be defined b either it’s state, or it’s position, but not by both at the same time. Furthermore, the very act of either observing it, or not observing it determines either it’s state or it’s position both simultaneously. Therefore, but both determining both it’s state and it’s position at the same time you literally force the particle to behave in a 100 percent totally random fashion.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 2:03 AM

But I must tell you that I am not a person who will try to persuade another adult. Whether it is from insecurity of knowledge or stubbornness, I’m not going to argue with willful denial.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 1:48 AM

Then that may not be your calling. You can also show your faith by how you live, how you treat others, from the joy you have in life. You can respond to others who ask what makes you joyful. Evangelism doesn’t necessarily mean knocking on doors. Arguing with willful denial is often counterproductive. We are only asked to sow the seed; the Spirit causes it to grow. Paraphrasing, speaking the truth in love is what we are to do whether the seed bears fruit is the work of the Holy Spirit.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 2:03 AM

From your response above, it seems that you are placing your faith in scholars whose fundamental axiom is that the Bible is myth.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

You have to be able to separate history from myth. Many parts of the Old Testament are history of the Jewish people. Other parts, such as the trials of Job, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Samson — these are myths. The thing is, I don’t consider myth to be a dirty word. Myths can often be truer than truth.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 2:04 AM

LevinFan on June 25, 2012 at 1:43 AM | Delete | Delete and Ban

I would feel a lot better if Ginsberg hadn’t decided to play little word games with us the other day. In my paranoid moments, I almost think she was taunting. She needs to be put out to pasture.

a capella on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

I also agree with that….I found her remarks cryptic. From which she appeared to be experiencing joy. Which “messaged” a bad outcome for those of us hoping for the right decision from the S.C. majority.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:04 AM

Kool, it’s actually a funny little read.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 2:03 AM

Good, because I can do that all day long.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

… and with that, I must leave for the night; work is coming too soon in the morning to hang here any longer.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

Actually, no that was Bob Nelson, from his infamous routine at Dangerfields’ in 1984

Harbingeing on June 25, 2012 at 1:54 AM

Dan Quayle meant to use the United Negro College Fund’s slogan, “The mind is a terrible thing to waste” — but he got it wrong. He stumbled for five minutes trying to get it right.

From these guys, at least got this part is still remembered: “What a terrible thing to have lost one’s mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is.”

That was that I was thinking about. :) Quayle was a factory.

Axe on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

I think uppereastside has issues.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:08 AM

… and with that, I must leave for the night; work is coming too soon in the morning to hang here any longer.

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

Blessings for your faithful and orthodox Lutheran witness…

OmahaConservative on June 25, 2012 at 2:09 AM

a capella on June 25, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Yep, she’s a twit. All this excitement about Obamacare and we haven’t given much thought to the Arizona decision.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:10 AM

PS..I remember unseen and that thread!..The guy was off his rocker!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 1:58 AM

…yes…but it’s like having a kid you’re having trouble with. You raise five kids, all the same…but you have one that is trouble and tries the patience of Job …you can’t understand why…but it’s your kid, and you keep plugging away and don’t give up. Unseen is one of the Hot Air kids!…not like lobotomyforlife…DBear…mo lester, Upyerassideways…that come into your house…pooh in your kitchen, pee in your den, and spit on your walls as they run back out of the house. He’s OUR kid!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 2:10 AM

some sort of far more crude, profane, decrepit state than ever was: “new” but worse.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:56 AM

We’ve always been crude, profane and decrepit. Look at the Romans, who habitually engaged in orgies and threw their deformed children into the streets to die. We had a brief illusion during the Victorian Age that we were better humans… but Dickens pierced that falsity quite effectively.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 2:10 AM

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

Enjoyed it as always!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 2:11 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

…………Oh Oh!….lord forgive me!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:47 AM

No, you have talents that I don’t. While you CAN do what you do, I can’t, so I ceased trying to and I stopped expecting myself to be doing so.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:31 AM

…I was up with you all night one night over a year ago…and you know what… I like you!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

That one escapade seems to have really miffed some people (not that you’re miffed, just sayin’ it’s something people remember, “that night”)…

I have this type of personality that doesn’t quit. I’m just one of those people who, once I realize I need a fire, will just keep at it night and all day and all through the night until the thing sparks and I get the flames going.

Something about the crude allegations and meanness of what a few people directed my way, even while I was present, in the third person, it just wasn’t acceptable, so I decided to confront it and stick with the confrontation as long as it took.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:11 AM

I like you!

KOOLAID2 on June 25, 2012 at 1:50 AM

I like you, too.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:12 AM

AZfederalist on June 25, 2012 at 2:06 AM

Good night and thanks!

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:12 AM

I think uppereastside has issues.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:08 AM

An inescapable consequence of embracing the ideology the the end justifies the means.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 2:12 AM

Good Night AZ, Sleep Well.

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 2:13 AM

Are you cereal??

NotCoach on June 24, 2012 at 8:25 PM

Super cereal.

FloatingRock on June 25, 2012 at 2:13 AM

I also agree with that….I found her remarks cryptic. From which she appeared to be experiencing joy. Which “messaged” a bad outcome for those of us hoping for the right decision from the S.C. majority.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:04 AM

I beg to differ… That seeming “joy” – appeared to me more like the “glee of insanity” coming from the enfeebled mind of broken old socialist who just got intellectually taken to the woodshed. I think *she* disagreed sharply with the majority, yet stood glowingly proud of her losing, but “principled stand” on the issue in chambers. But even Ginsburg knows now, that the gig is up.

Harbingeing on June 25, 2012 at 2:14 AM

I think uppereastside has issues.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:08 AM

I suppose we all do. His just don’t happen to go well with mine. ; )

Bmore on June 25, 2012 at 2:14 AM

some sort of far more crude, profane, decrepit state than ever was: “new” but worse.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:56 AM

We’ve always been crude, profane and decrepit. Look at the Romans, who habitually engaged in orgies and threw their deformed children into the streets to die. We had a brief illusion during the Victorian Age that we were better humans… but Dickens pierced that falsity quite effectively.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 2:10 AM

Yes, I agree (your example, the Romans)…but there ought to be the expectation that over time and with adequate acquisition of goods, knowledge and widom that, in general, people would be aimed toward a greater condition than where we are, at least some are.

I just look at the crimes, horrors, destructions and grotesque insults to dignity that occur all over the world as humans are responsible and I wonder if we as a species are “devolving”.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:15 AM

I think uppereastside has issues.
Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:08 AM

Rationalizing a program that lead to the death of innocents has that result: issues.

aryeung on June 25, 2012 at 2:15 AM

I think uppereastside has issues.

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:08 AM

Another racist who projects that all conservatives are racists. Ho-hum.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 2:16 AM

Does anyone know any happy Lefties?

Cindy Munford on June 25, 2012 at 2:17 AM

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 1:52 AM

I enjoy your comments!!..:)

Dire Straits on June 25, 2012 at 2:02 AM

Thank ye. Feelings are mutual. :)

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:17 AM

lol, Flora duh earlier said that she is so furious about F&F that she is ready to just go and punch a lib for general principles. I concur. If a scandal like this cannot bring us together to find the truth wherever it leads then we are in a bad way.

arnold ziffel on June 25, 2012 at 1:38 AM

ROTFLMAO… I remember her saying that other night. Sadly, I understand what we are up against. It is an ideology that I personally consider the most evil and vile ideology ever conceived of by man. It is the ideology, that “The End Justifies the Means” and the left has totally 100 percent embraced it.

SWalker on June 25, 2012 at 1:41 AM

Essentially it’s always been that way.
While Journalists like to think of themselves as Crusading for the Truth back in 1973 during the era of a new kind of reporting Investigative Journalism, the sad truth is that the Media’s Treatment of Nixon and Watergate was Simple Payback for Algir Hiss.

jaydee_007 on June 25, 2012 at 2:19 AM

I just look at the crimes, horrors, destructions and grotesque insults to dignity that occur all over the world as humans are responsible and I wonder if we as a species are “devolving”.

Lourdes on June 25, 2012 at 2:15 AM

This aims at the heart of American “exceptionalism”. I do believe we are evolving at a manic pace. But, at the same time, our media has an obsessive fixation with our darkest elements in order to sell papers. So we are exposed to a lot more of our ugliness even though we are getting better as a species.

John the Libertarian on June 25, 2012 at 2:19 AM

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