Missing the point on Fast and Furious

posted at 11:01 am on June 24, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

This week we are likely to see the next act unfold in the ongoing saga of the Fast and Furious investigation as the full House considers whether or not to take any further action regarding the Attorney General’s reticence in handing over documents related to the program. One result of this has been some sadly predictable tongue clucking and accusations from the anti-gun lobby on the Left. The rationale invoked in these screeds is curious at best, but given how common it’s become we should probably take a look at a couple of prime examples.

The first comes to us courtesy of Andrew Cohen at The Atlantic. An early indicator to look for is the often repeated array of adjectives which these critics of the critics of the program use when describing it. Cohen goes with “failed gun-running sting.” He later ups the ante with, “a bad idea, poorly done.” It’s a constant theme these days in liberal coffee klatches. F&F wasn’t all that unusual or worthy of all this attention… it was just a poorly thought out effort to address a criminal problem.

So what should we be concerned about, in Cohen’s humble opinion?

None of this rancor excuses the poor judgment — across two administrations — which generated the program itself. And none of it justifies the burgeoning political battle over the scope of the documents the Republicans want Holder to hand over. Like so much else about Washington’s ruined politics these days, the partisan shouting will escalate, ribbons of blame will be laid, vast amounts of time and money will be spent, and the real problem will go unsolved…

But what’s the “real problem?”

The Brady Campaign contends that the “Fast and Furious” program involved about 2,000 firearms crossing the border into Mexico, about 3 percent of the guns moving from U.S. gun shops to Mexico in the last four years. The center’s Denis Henigan wants House Republicans, the ones chasing Eric Holder, to focus instead upon the other 97 percent of those guns.

See? Republicans are just “playing politics” with this and ignoring the real problem, which is that there are just too gosh darn many guns around in the US. And if there weren’t, then they wouldn’t be finding their way into Mexico. This whole, “you’re just playing politics” theme is echoed even more strongly in an editorial by Chris Hayes, he of rhetorically proximate fame. This whole thing is the Republicans’ fault because we’re living in The Era of Post-truth Politics.

Given what we know about the Republican Party, and the way the House of Representatives conducts itself when run by Republicans and with a Democrat in the White House, it shouldn’t really count as news when a House committee finds the Democratic attorney general in contempt of Congress…

But, alas, conservatives and House Republicans are good at ginning up outrage and their target is the Fast and Furious program, an attempt begun under the Bush administration to track illegal guns as they made their way through the hands of Mexican drug traffickers. The tracking wasn’t very well executed, and at least one of the guns that should have been monitored was used instead to shoot and kill Border Patrol agent Brian Terry. (This horrible tragedy was one of about 30-thousand people killed every year by guns. Somehow we don’t see much outrage and grief from Republicans about those).

This is pretty much a re-run of the Atlantic piece in many ways and seems to be the marching orders handed down from the White House. Here we see the program described as being not very well executed. (Hayes pulls up short of saying, “botched” which I’ve scored as the most common adjective used.) And the only fault by the Obama administration is not realizing that Republicans will never play fair so he should be tougher on them. In fact, as he cites Brian Terry’s death, Hayes barely has time to insert a parenthesis before bringing up how many other people are killed by guns.

Then there’s this gem:

And so, that’s why promoting this implausible conspiracy theory about a secret plot to make gun owners look bad by giving guns to Mexican traffickers is so important to the right and the NRA. It’s why they’ve been flogging Fast and Furious and why the NRA scored the vote on contempt. Since there is no actual case that the President wants to crush gun-rights, they have to make one.Because this is post-truth politics.

The author takes time out of his busy day to mock the idea of F&F being used as a tool to “make gun owners look bad” in the very same article where he uses his media platform to talk about the horrible situation of all these guns in America and gun deaths. The irony is palpable.

The reality is that the fact of 29,999 other gun related deaths does not make the death of Brian Terry one iota less tragic or important. And yes, there is a vast difference between criminals running guns into Mexico and the government doing it. We already know there is a problem with criminals looking to make big profits by running guns across the border and we need to beef up our efforts to curb that activity. We’re not surprised that criminals do this. We are surprised when the government does.

When it comes to Eric Holder and the President, a very old rule applies: the cover-up is almost always worse than the screw-up which led to it. And in terms of our democracy, the former may be more damaging than the latter. But Hayes and Cohen are welcome to keep telling themselves that it’s all dishonest politics and it’s only the Republicans who try to go after Democrats and prosecute them for political gain. I’m pretty sure Scooter Libby wrote something similar in his journal while doing his 400 hours of community service.


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Great thread all.

Keep the information and truth flowing.

over and out.

bazil9 on June 24, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Love that quote. :)

GrannyDee on June 24, 2012 at 2:16 PM

Me too. Gotta go GrannyDee, see youse later.

VegasRick on June 24, 2012 at 2:19 PM

“So, I guess I’m supposed to be angrier with Romney for what he spends HIS money on than what obambi spends MY money on.”
Summed up.

VegasRick on June 24, 2012 at 2:18 PM

“But, but, but…Romney has an elevator in his garage and his wife has a horse.” – Typical Lib

GrannyDee on June 24, 2012 at 2:20 PM

It does effect us all and it upsets me but it is his business and right. So, I respectfully disagree that is it all our business what he chooses to do in the voting booth. We can disagree with him, be angry at his choice but still his right to do what he wants to do.

bazil9 on June 24, 2012 at 2:09 PM

I hate the argument that “it’s his right”.

Ummm obviously… I never said anything that he doesn’t have the right to be stupid and not vote.

What I’m saying is it affects ALL of us. People voting for Obama or staying home leads to Obama getting reelected which makes us all suffer.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:21 PM

“So, I guess I’m supposed to be angrier with Romney for what he spends HIS money on than what obambi spends MY money on.”
Summed up.

VegasRick on June 24, 2012 at 2:18 PM

What?? I have no idea what that means.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:23 PM

The point that the DOJ and White House will not acknowledge is that people have been killed because of this operation. To put this operation in the simplest terms, “government agencies breaking federal laws so that the federal government could impose more federal laws on the people that didn’t break the laws”. This was another liberal attempt upon the 2nd Amendment, the problem is that it backfired. What is going on today, does not have a scent of cover up it has an overwhelming odor of cover up. The supervisors of this operation in Arizona and Texas have been moved out of the area and promoted, if that does not reek of cover up nothing will.

savage24 on June 24, 2012 at 2:24 PM

What matters is two American Law Enforcement Officers and over 20 Mexican nationals are dead. Justice must be served, even if it reaches to the top of the Obama Administration.

kingsjester on June 24, 2012 at 2:26 PM

What I’m saying is it affects ALL of us. People voting for Obama or staying home leads to Obama getting reelected which makes us all suffer.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:21 PM

Absolutely right, LF.

While Romney was not my choice and while I am still not doing handstands over him, he is the presumptive nominee and I will vote for him. Romney has got to be elected. We’ve already experienced what the man known as Barack Hussein Obama has accomplished and the destruction he has wrought in 3-1/2 years. God forbid he should be given another term.

GrannyDee on June 24, 2012 at 2:26 PM

I hate the argument that “it’s his right”.

It isnt an argument, it is the truth. Is it not his right?

What I’m saying is it affects ALL of us. People voting for Obama or staying home leads to Obama getting reelected which makes us all suffer.LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:21 PM

And I agree with you. Feel the same. Still his right whether it makes me angry or not. I can’t change that.

If it makes you feel better..2 die hard Dems I know have told me they are staying home this Nov. :)

Laterz

bazil9 on June 24, 2012 at 2:27 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 2:08 PM

Yes ROmney has done some stupid things.

However he’s NOT a socialist like Obama.

Romney doesn’t have contempt for Americans.

Again he won’t do Fast and Furious, raid Gibson Guitars..etc.

Do you see what I mean??

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM

I see what you mean. But I’m not one who needs convincing. There is a certain segment of the Republican electorate who said four years ago, “I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils.” I was not one of them. How do you propose Mitt Romney should approach them now that he’s hired Mike Leavitt and asserted that young voters will have to vote for him because they know what’s in the country’s best interest. I find that insulting, and others do as well. It’s going to take a lot more than “he’s not Obama” for me to tone down my criticisms.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 2:27 PM

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 1:39 PM

Yes, and here is a nice little story below.

Hezz and Zeta holding hands…sound good?

bazil9 on June 24, 2012 at 1:47 PM

It has to be made exceedingly clear to Mexico that if hezblahblah or any other islamic radicals operate inside their country, that we will treat them as we do Pakistan. We will put airplanes over Mexico and bomb them.

slickwillie2001 on June 24, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Aside from F&F, we need to take a higher-level look at what is lawbreaking by law enforcement. This started on a large scale in the drug trade with doing drug deals in order to ‘sting’ the drug dealers. I don’t know if they get away with that based on discretion or intent, but it has led to F&F where they break the law on a massive scale, for what?

They are ordering gun dealers to break the law, -how is that even legal?

slickwillie2001 on June 24, 2012 at 2:34 PM

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 1:39 PM

Yes, and here is a nice little story below.

Hezz and Zeta holding hands…sound good?

bazil9 on June 24, 2012 at 1:47 PM

An operation as big and as illegal as F&F, involving a number of agencies and departments, has to serve multiple goals in order to get enough people on board, either as participants or as silent partners.

There is no doubt in my mind that creating a crisis to exploit in order to advance the gun control agenda is one of the goals, beloved as it is of Holder, Obama, Napolitano, Hilary and the Left generally.

But was another goal assisting the Sinaloa Cartel in their war with los Zetas? Los Zetas are far more problematic than the Sinaloas, and given their cooperation with Islamist terrorists would pose a huge national security threat if they were able to effectively assert control of the border with Mexico. Did the Obama administration view the Sinaloas as a lesser threat, and decide to intervene in the ongoing criminal gang wars on their behalf, by supplying them with weapons?

At one point I believed this scenario was highly probable, in part because I couldn’t believe even as corrupt and incompetent a tool as Holder is, he wasn’t stupid and vile enough to send these weapons to Mexico solely to create a crisis to exploit to advance gun control. Now I am far less certain, because Holder appears to be every bit stupid and vile enough.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

I see what you mean. But I’m not one who needs convincing. There is a certain segment of the Republican electorate who said four years ago, “I’m done voting for the lesser of two evils.” I was not one of them. How do you propose Mitt Romney should approach them now that he’s hired Mike Leavitt and asserted that young voters will have to vote for him because they know what’s in the country’s best interest. I find that insulting, and others do as well. It’s going to take a lot more than “he’s not Obama” for me to tone down my criticisms.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 2:27 PM

My answer is to tell those people to pull their heads out of their a$$es!

There is no $#(#$ way ROmney is even as close to as bad as Maobama.

And for everyone of these crybabies refusing to vote, not one of them should ever criticize Maobama again. They should all support the Fast and Furious cover up, Solyndra, Dodd-Frank, Obamacare…etc…..because when it mattered most all they did was stay at home and pout.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

What folks are “missing”, is that people had to die BY DESIGN, i.e., murder. I believe F&F was conceived, and planned by Obama, Jarrett and Holder. Dangerous, ruthless people.

bob77 on June 24, 2012 at 2:53 PM

My answer is to tell those people to pull their heads out of their a$$es!

There is no $#(#$ way ROmney is even as close to as bad as Maobama.

And for everyone of these crybabies refusing to vote, not one of them should ever criticize Maobama again. They should all support the Fast and Furious cover up, Solyndra, Dodd-Frank, Obamacare…etc…..because when it mattered most all they did was stay at home and pout.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

I wish it were that simple. But I want to do more than beat Obama. I want to humiliate him. I want to repudiate once-and-for-all everything he stands for and send him back to Chicago with his tail between his legs. I want Obama to serve as an example to Pe-Louse-i and Harry Reid and all the other bloodsucking vermin in Washington, a not-so-polite reminder that the Democratic party is in its last days as a viable political entity.

And you know what? I don’t think Mitt Romney cares about any of that. I think he cares about becoming president, and that’s where his concern begins and ends. I’m still waiting for evidence that I’m wrong.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 2:54 PM

slickwillie2001 on June 24, 2012 at 2:29 PM

But what would that do to Øbama’s Latino vote? :)

I have serious misgivings about Øbama/Holder’s aims and alliances in Mexico. I suspect that Calderone does too.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 2:55 PM

I have serious misgivings about Øbama/Holder’s aims and alliances in Mexico. I suspect that Calderone does too.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 2:55 PM

Calderon was completely left out of the loop on F&F. That one simple fact is key to understanding just how morally repugnant F&F really was/is/should be.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Here is a little on The Zeta group

Due to their military background, Los Zetas are well armed, highly organized and equipped;[8] their brutal tactics, which include beheadings, torture and indiscriminate slaughter, show that they often prefer brutality over bribery.[8] Los Zetas are also Mexico’s largest drug cartel in terms of geographical presence, overtaking its bitter rival, the Sinaloa Cartel.[11] Besides drug trafficking, Los Zetas operate through protection rackets, assassinations, extortion, kidnappings, and other criminal activities.[12] The organization is based in Nuevo Laredo, Tamaulipas, directly across the border from Laredo, Texas.[13][14]

bazil9 on June 24, 2012 at 1:10 PM

In reference to the Zetas and not sure how national this news went, in the last two weeks here in OK (Lexington, just south of OKC)a lot of people arrested in a money laundering scheme by the Zetas at a very large horse operation (over 450 horses). The manager and wife were arrested, along with others in parts of Texas arrested. The managers two brothers are said to be Zetas in Nuevo Laredo. It is a big scandal, with them threatening horse sellers with life and limb if they didn’t sell horses to them below value, and even fixing some big race at Ruidoso, NM, by paying the gatekeepers to make sure their horse won,which it did. Folks, they are enmeshed in our culture in ways we don’t even know.

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 3:21 PM

Sorry, don’t even know how I did that strike thingy.

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 3:21 PM

Holder lied and Terry died……

Renee on June 24, 2012 at 3:24 PM

Calderon was completely left out of the loop on F&F. That one simple fact is key to understanding just how morally repugnant F&F really was/is/should be.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM | Delete | Delete and Ban

Are we sure of that? Didn’t Barry meet with Calderone et al at the time F&F was put into play? Calderone has been beating the drum for more U.S. gun control laws for some time.
I’ve suspected from the outset that Calderon’s strange lack of outrage towards Holder and Obama was suspicious. He is trying to play one cartel off against the other. I think he’s involved up to his eyeballs.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 3:31 PM

Lots of good links in the comments section. Thanks everyone…

OmahaConservative on June 24, 2012 at 1:35 PM

I would like to second this. I was just telling the hubby how well informed readers of Hot Air are, not only by the folks who run this and provide us with their commentary, but the commenters who provide us with all these valuable links. I won’t attempt to name them all because I would miss some, so to all of you, thanks a million. I don’t even watch Fox News Sunday any more because they don’t know half the information I know just by reading here.

By the way, the Andrew McCarthey article is well worth the long read, because he goes into such detail about how Obama and Holder couldn’t possibly not have known. This is the depth of information we get here.

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 3:33 PM

Hume on Fast and Furious: ‘The scent of a cover-up is pretty strong’

“I think the scent of a cover-up is pretty strong,” Hume said. “The documents are being withheld…I think it is basically a frivolous claim.”

I would think Brit that it’s anything but “frivolous.” You might do better with “desperate” or “panicky,”…then there’s “outrageous,” and the old reliable,”unbelievable” perhaps even “conspiratorial” and those can all be found in any dictionary under the word,”liberal.”

Don L on June 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM

My question is, did Obama himself pull the trigger on the weapon that killed Brian Terry, or was it the second gunman on the grassy knoll?
Speaking of missing the point, Agent Terry would still be dead regardless of F&F, or any other 2nd amendment conspiracy envisaged. Whoever killed him would surely have done so no matter where his weapon came from.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM

So, it is then OK with you for our government to be arming the drug dealers because they would get the guns anyway?

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 3:39 PM

Fast and Furious and OCDETF

The media commentary about “executive privilege” makes your eyes glaze over. That’s intentional: When you are throwing sand in the public’s eyes, as the administration is in the Fast and Furious scandal, you want the talking heads droning on about the jurisprudence of “presidential communications” and “deliberative process.” Blather about the legal contours diverts your attention from the only question that really matters.

Why?

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/303808/fast-and-furious-and-ocdetf-andrew-c-mccarthy

There is no way that Obama and Holder didn’t know about this from the beginning.

***

Where Bill Whittle get’s it Wrong.

I admire and respect PJTV’s Bill Whittle, he is an amazing intellect and a fearless proponent of the truth. His series “Afterburner” sheds an unblinking steady and bright light on many subjects that the Fifth Column Treasonous Media desperately desires to consign to the dark. In his latest episode “Follow the ideology” Bill casts his unwavering gaze upon the “Fast and Furious” scandal, and as usual, he held nothing back.

He makes but one mistake, at the end of the segment he remarks directly to the guardians of the Fifth Column Treasonous Media.

Have you no shame?

http://thewildernessofmirrors.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/where-bill-whittle-gets-it-wrong/

Green eyed Lady on June 24, 2012 at 3:41 PM

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM

Say, what did you think of the Roger Clements trial? Years and millions of dollars spent to prosecute him for lying to Congress about fricken’ PEDs in baseball. I guess lying to Congress is a pretty serious thing, huh? Or, not?

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Beyond patience or tolerance for these morally bereft repugnant f@#$wits.

Midas on June 24, 2012 at 3:48 PM

Silvernana, No, the government has no business supplying weapons to anyone (IMO). It was an imprudent, ill-conceived plan from inception. But those who are attempting to link the killing of Agent Terry to Holder and Obama are merely conspiracy nuts who simply allow their disdain for Obama cloud their logical thinking. And the theory that they “planned” the operation to incite 2nd amendment backlash is even more preposterous, and totally unsupported by the facts, as Con. Issa said as much this morning.
argumentum ad ignorantiam at it’s finest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/darrell-issa-no-evidence-white-house-involved-in-fast-and-furious/2012/06/24/gJQAhs1kzV_blog.html

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 3:58 PM

Issa needs to send Josh Randall after Obama and Holder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUROZEmC1WQ&feature=related

VorDaj on June 24, 2012 at 4:00 PM

He is trying to play one cartel off against the other. I think he’s involved up to his eyeballs.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 3:31 PM

Please read my post at 2:50. It fits in with your thoughts on the subject.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 4:02 PM

My answer is to tell those people to pull their heads out of their a$$es!

There is no $#(#$ way ROmney is even as close to as bad as Maobama.

And for everyone of these crybabies refusing to vote, not one of them should ever criticize Maobama again. They should all support the Fast and Furious cover up, Solyndra, Dodd-Frank, Obamacare…etc…..because when it mattered most all they did was stay at home and pout.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

I’m not voting for a man who says stuff like this. Not now, not ever, and there’s nothing anybody can say or do that will convince me. Ever.
Certainly no amount of “You’re voting for OBAMA!!!!!!1!!!!eleventy!!1!” will get me to pull the lever for a totalitarian like King Willard. I’ll vote down-ticket for Congress and local candidates, but I’m writing in for POTUS this year.
And I’ll criticize whomever I damned well please, whether I vote for the D tyrant or the R tyrant.

Dunedainn on June 24, 2012 at 4:02 PM

And I’ll criticize whomever I damned well please, whether I vote for the D tyrant or the R tyrant.

Dunedainn on June 24, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Or neither, as is my choice.

Dunedainn on June 24, 2012 at 4:03 PM

This is OT, but since the subject has come up on this tread…

Anyone who considers Condoleeza Rice to be a good VP choice really needs to read both Dick Cheney’s “In My Time” and Donald Rumsfeld’s “Known and Unknown.”

Nichevo on June 24, 2012 at 4:03 PM

argumentum ad ignorantiam at it’s finest.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/darrell-issa-no-evidence-white-house-involved-in-fast-and-furious/2012/06/24/gJQAhs1kzV_blog.html

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 3:58 PM

lol, you prove your words by the “source” you cite.

Please try again.

PS, are you any relation to the Axelrod-funded O’bama Kneepad who’s been hijacking the ABC News comment thread on this story by endlessly posting Issa’s comment from this morning?

If so, he’s not paying you nearly enough.

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 4:06 PM

But those who are attempting to link the killing of Agent Terry to Holder and Obama are merely conspiracy nuts who simply allow their disdain for Obama cloud their logical thinking.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 3:58 PM

You are the nut with your head too far up Obama’s rectum to do any logical thinking at all. I do not believe for one instant that Obama and Holder saw nothing, heard nothing and knew nothing. Something like Fast and Furious, The Gun Running Merchant of Death Program has to come from the top, unless you are living in some absurd Hollywood movie.

VorDaj on June 24, 2012 at 4:07 PM

Terrorists Obama and Holder are to Mexico with their Gun Running Merchant of Death Program what OBL and AlQ were to America on 9/11 with their airliner attacks.

VorDaj on June 24, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Please read my post at 2:50. It fits in with your thoughts on the subject.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 4:02 PM | Delete | Delete and Ban

Yep, it does. I think this might be a lot bigger and more sinister than anyone knows. Those protected documents might be more explosive than simply trying to protect one’s boss from embarrassment.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 4:11 PM

when it mattered most all they did was stay at home and pout.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

I voted for Palin and McCain just happened to be on the ticket. Here is the most important reason to vote Romney: SCOTUS.

John the Libertarian on June 24, 2012 at 4:16 PM

BTW, guns don’t kill people, people kill people (I read that somewhere).
Point being, as I stated earlier, I firmly believe that Agent Terry would have met the same unfortunate demise regardless of what, if any gun operation was in place.The blame for his tragic death lies solely with the person(s) that confronted/attacked him that night. Holder is a stonewalling, obtuse, political hack…probably guilty of covering up something (after the fact), but placing blame for Terry’s death at his (or Obama’s feet) is purely political fantasy. The dots are simply not there.
Issa stated this this morning.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:17 PM

Those protected documents might be more explosive than simply trying to protect one’s boss from embarrassment.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 4:11 PM

Which is exactly why the shredders are running 24/7, I’d bet on it.

These guys are not going to let a little thing like ‘the law’ hang them out to dry, we know this already.

Midas on June 24, 2012 at 4:20 PM

Obama is to Mexico what OBL was to America. A murdering terrorist. Obama “saw nothing, heard nothing, knew nothing” no more than OBl did.

VorDaj on June 24, 2012 at 4:27 PM

O.K.
Let’s try Chairman Issa’s own words then.
WALLACE: Question: do you have any evidence that White House officials knowingly were involved in these decisions, that they knowingly misled Congress and are involved in the cover-up?

ISSA: No, we don’t. And what we are seeking are documents we know to exist, February 4th to December, that are, in fact, about Brian Terry’s murder, who knew, and why people were lying about it, and get to the truth. That’s all we want.
WALLACE: I just want to be clear. We’ve got to get out. No evidence at this point that the White House is involved in the cover up?

ISSA: And I hope they don’t get involved. I hope this stays at Justice.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/fox-news-sunday/2012/06/24/rep-issa-rep-cummings-debate-holder-contempt-congress-vote?page=3#ixzz1ykDrV8wm

Unless, of course, the words coming out of the Chairman’s own mouth are not to be believed. The docs he’s seeking are from after Feb4, 2011. Agent terry was killed dec 10, 2011. There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

Calderon was completely left out of the loop on F&F. That one simple fact is key to understanding just how morally repugnant F&F really was/is/should be.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Yep. Zetas would like to overthrow Calderon and install one of their own leftists. If Calderone knew we were going to give arms to the drug dealers at war with his government, I imagine he would get grumpy. Kinda like Holder putting a knife in his back.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 3:31 PM

I read that Wide Receiver was executed in cooperation with the Mexican government, but F&F was initiated and operated without its prior knowledge. NYT (for what that’s worth):

He has remained steadfast in his relationship with the United States, despite obvious friction. While he pushed for the ouster of the previous American ambassador, who had derided Mexican law enforcement and military agencies in diplomatic cables, he declined to criticize the United States over a program known as “Fast and Furious” in which American agents lost track of weapons they had allowed to cross into Mexico, with dozens ending up at crime scenes.

Mr. Calderón said he learned of the program just after meeting with Mr. Obama in Washington, from a newspaper account. It troubled him, he said, but lashing out at the United States would not serve Mexico’s interests.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 4:36 PM

Obama is to Mexico what OBL was to America. A murdering terrorist. Obama “saw nothing, heard nothing, knew nothing” no more than OBl did.

VorDaj on June 24, 2012 at 4:27 PM
A murdering terrorist, huh?
So, when are the charges coming for that?
Yup, and I’m the one with my head up my as5?
Got it.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:37 PM

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

So, no proof of direct involvement of Holder or Obama.

Congress, whose duty it is to exercise oversight, can’t review the evidence to determine if there is any proof, because Holder and Obama have defied a series of congressional subpoenas.

But the whole thing is witch hunt, because there is no proof.

I’m sorry people, but this nonsense and the jackwagon spouting it deserve little notice and no direct engagement, which only encourages it to waste even more perfectly good electrons.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM

There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

You may want to insert the phrase, available to the oversight committee, after the word evidence. Or, you may not.
BTW, how do you explain the fact that F&F was shut down by Holder(according to his testimony)before he claims he was aware of it(again, his testimony)

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 4:44 PM

Dunedainn on June 24, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Then don’t you ever criticize Maobama EVER again.

You’ve lost that right by being an ignoramus who sees no difference between a moderate and a Marxist.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 4:45 PM

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

Yes, there seems to be a lot more to F&F that has yet to surface.

Tell me pls, were the F&F weapons intended for the Sinaloa Cartel or los Zetas, or both?

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 4:47 PM

BTW, guns don’t kill people, people kill people (I read that somewhere).

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:17 PM

Yup, all the Leftists are flogging those very same words in the Comments over at ABC News and (especially) at CNN. You know CNN, the network favored by Democrats. A network that has falsely accused the US of dropping nerve gas on Laotian civilians, has falsely accused US soldiers of murdering Iraqi reporters, and which censored Saddam Hussein’s brutality against his own people for 10 years.

If the White House is in the clear, they can easily prove it.

By releasing the documents they refuse to release.

What are they hiding, and why are you so afraid of what they are hiding?

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 4:51 PM

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

I’m sorry people, but this nonsense and the jackwagon spouting it deserve little notice and no direct engagement, which only encourages it to waste even more perfectly good electrons.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 4:42 PM

This Sleeper Cell poster seems to have appeared out of nowhere on this thread.

Apparently Axelrod was busy here during the last Open Reg.

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 4:53 PM

Zetas would like to overthrow Calderon and install one of their own leftists. If Calderone knew we were going to give arms to the drug dealers at war with his government, I imagine he would get grumpy. Kinda like Holder putting a knife in his back.

Suppose we were arming the Sinaloas, not the Zetas? Virtually all these weapons went to the Sinaloa Cartel, which doesn’t pose nearly the threat to the Mexican government that los Zetas do.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 3:31 PM

I read that Wide Receiver was executed in cooperation with the Mexican government, but F&F was initiated and operated without its prior knowledge…

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 4:36 PM

Correct. Wide Receiver was done in conjunction with Mexican authorities, used tracking devices and surveillance to attempt to follow the guns after they crossed the border. It involved far fewer weapons. But the tracking devices were unreliable and the Mexican authorities were corrupt and unreliable. After some weapons were lost, the program was shut down.

F&F made no effort to track guns or cooperate with Mexican authorities. If F&F is comparable with Wide Receiver, it is Wide Receiver without any safeguards to prevent the loss of weapons.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 4:54 PM

Calderon was completely left out of the loop on F&F. That one simple fact is key to understanding just how morally repugnant F&F really was/is/should be.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Yet he could find the time to lambaste Congress from the House floor — with Obama’s encouragement — when we weren’t moving fast enough on legalizing the millions of Mexican illegals who are here.

Calderon is as duplicitous as Obama. I don’t believe for one minute that he has been either left out of the loop or doesn’t know what is going on.

PatriotGal2257 on June 24, 2012 at 4:59 PM

novaculus, just a bit more from the jackwagon (thanks, BTW, that’s a new one).
The subpoenaed documents that Holder refuses to hand over are dated from Feb 4 to Dec, 2011, after Agent Terry’s death.
So, were they planning operation F&F AFTER the event (the shooting) on December 10, 2010? Because, I may be wrong, but wouldn’t that require a time machine or something?
I would agree that Holder/Obama no doubt conferred on how to handle the WH/DOJ reaction to this horrible tragedy, and bungled/lied about it AFTER the fact. Issa has admitted as much. But I have yet to see a shred of evidence that would suggest Holder or Obama knew of the botched operation before the tragic death of Brian Terry.
If there is any…I’ll be glad to see it.
Anyone?

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:00 PM

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 2:50 PM

Yes, there seems to be a lot more to F&F that has yet to surface.

Tell me pls, were the F&F weapons intended for the Sinaloa Cartel or los Zetas, or both?

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 4:47 PM

Virtually all went to the Sinaloas, which makes me wonder if this wasn’t covert warfare against los Zetas, as well as the creation of a crisis to exploit to advance gun control. At one point I was pretty well convinced that it was. But since then some evidence suggests that BATFE Phoeniz and Dennis Burke, US Attorney Phoenix, were being played by a Sinaloa capo who learned of the program and was milking it.

A interesting side note: F&F bypassed the BATFE chain of command, and was run by the US Attorney Phoenix, Dennis Burke, through his Assistant Emory Hurley,using BATFE Phoenix resources and SAC Bill Newell. This pattern is a classic form of political corruption, where an agency’s resources are diverted to corrupt ends. Rather than attempt to corrupt the entire organization, this template only requires corruption at the very top and the very bottom.

They had Bill Newell, a corrupt tool with friends in the White House, and Dennis Burke, former handtool to Janet Napolitano, on the bottom end.

Who was at the top? Not Kenneth Melson, acting head of the BATFE, because he along with the rest of the BATFE chain of command had been cut out. Whoever it was had to be a senior post in the DOJ, at the very least. Like Lanny Breuer, head of Criminal, to whom Dennis Burke wass responsible.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:09 PM

I have yet to see a shred of evidence that would suggest Holder or Obama knew of the botched operation before the tragic death of Brian Terry.

If there is any…I’ll be glad to see it.

Anyone?

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:00 PM

They can easily prove that they didn’t know. By releasing all of the documents the Committee has requested.

In nearly 2 years, Holder has only given them 5% of the documents they have requested. 5%

What are they hiding?

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 5:17 PM

Calderon is as duplicitous as Obama. I don’t believe for one minute that he has been either left out of the loop or doesn’t know what is going on.

PatriotGal2257 on June 24, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Well my assertion is based on Calderon’s professed ignorance. If Calderon is lying, do you think that makes it better or worse for Obama? Perhaps Obama’s duplicity in working with Caldron on this is what he really is covering up. Either way, I don’t think any American is going to say, “Oh. Calderon agreed to something that led to almost 300 dead Mexican nationals? I guess Obama is off the hook!”

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:18 PM

For the Clueless that get their “news” (i.e. leftist propaganda) from the socialist media and therefore know NOTHING about Fast & Furious:

Summary of Fast & Furious (F&F): a program of the OBOZO regime that was designed to manipulate public opinion so they could destroy the Second Amendment freedoms of Americans to own guns. A key element of this despicable plan was to allow mexican drug cartels to gain free access to purchase guns and rifles in the US (principally, Arizona) and then, after the guns had been used in horrific crimes by the cartels, to sway US public opinion (with help from the d-cRAT stooges and puppets in the socialist media) against such “easy” access to guns by federal legislation (or more OBOZO dictatorial decrees) to severely limit ALL gun sales – OR WORSE – to American citizens. The F&F operation was totally and completed botched by the ATF/DOJ when they lost track of the thousands of weapons they let the cartel buy. Nonetheless, the weapons were used in thousands of murders, including the murders of US Border Patrol agents Brian Terry and Jaime Zapata.

Why the “Executive Privilege” cover-up: Documents showing the direct involvement in this plan by Valerie Jarrett, Rahm Emanuel, Eric Holder, numerous other high WH officials and OBOZO, himself, would destroy this rogue, anti-Constitutional, anti-democracy regime if the public saw them. Hence, OBOZO will do whatever it takes to keep them hidden.

Why hold Holder in Contempt: He has stonewalled legitimate Congressional requests for F&F documents for well over a year, and he blatantly LIED to Congress in his 04 Feb 2011 letter stating no knowledge of or involvement in F&F.

TeaPartyNation on June 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM

What are they hiding?

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 5:17 PM

Something big enough to make Obama comfortable issuing a blatantly spurious executive privilege claim. That much is obvious if nothing else.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Jazz:

This argument fails.

The fact is the program was illegal. The fact is, the cartel is operating in nearly 1300 cities in the US. The fact is, those 2000 guns are lost now; they will turn up in US cities, where people will be shot by them when the Mexican Drug Cartels become involved in DRUG WARS IN THE US.

The American people are now at risk of being killed by one of the guns from Holder and Obama’s FAST AND FURIOUS criminal enterprise.

Why aren’t conservatives making this case?

YouTube Ad: WILL YOU BE THE NEXT VICTIM OF FAST AND FURIOUS? WILL YOUR CHILD?

mountainaires on June 24, 2012 at 5:23 PM

Missing the point on Fast and Furious

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:00 PM

You’re one of the dumber trolls.

CW on June 24, 2012 at 5:24 PM

Why aren’t conservatives isn’t Romney making this case?

YouTube Romney campaign ad: WILL YOU BE THE NEXT VICTIM OF FAST AND FURIOUS? WILL YOUR CHILD?

mountainaires on June 24, 2012 at 5:23 PM

Cue the Rombots to tell us why this would be unwise/impractical in

5…

4…

3…

2…

1…

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:25 PM

In nearly 2 years, Holder has only given them 5% of the documents they have requested. 5%

What are they hiding?

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 5:17 PM

You just don’t get it, Del. You see, of all the documents produced out of F&F(nearly 150,000?), only 5% (LT 10,000) actually have anything to do with F&F itself. The rest is all deliberative. So it is privileged.

Yeah, right.

That is, of course, assuming you take at face value the words of Eric Holder and some novel notions about the breadth of the privilege.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:27 PM

Virtually all went to the Sinaloas…

A interesting side note: F&F bypassed the BATFE chain of command, and was run by the US Attorney Phoenix…
novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:09 PM

Thanks.

As for chain of command, have you read Andy McCarthy in NRO today Fast and Furious and OCDETF: Whom is executive privilege protecting? He explains that because F&F was an OCDETF project, it had to have been authorized and supervised at the very top level, likely involving Holder and probably Øbama too.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 5:29 PM

You just don’t get it, Del. You see, of all the documents produced out of F&F(nearly 150,000?), only 5% (LT 10,000) actually have anything to do with F&F itself. The rest is all deliberative. So it is privileged.

Yeah, right.

That is, of course, assuming you take at face value the words of Eric Holder and some novel notions about the breadth of the privilege.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:27 PM

I can tell you this much. I’m not sure whether to trust FElipe Calderon, though my gut instincts say not to. I am sure that anything regarding F&F that issues forth from Eric Holder’s cakehole is an absolute lie. It’s just a reasonable assumption.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:29 PM

Does anyone have details of the difference between the program that Bush authorized and F&F? I keep hearing the accusation that the program was started under Bush. I know that under Bush the guns were traceable, but I don’t know the full story. I would like to be able to shut the libs I hear up over this.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:35 PM

Something big enough to make Obama comfortable issuing a blatantly spurious executive privilege claim.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:19 PM

I imagine they don’t care how spurious the EP claim appears. They think it will get them past the election, and after that, it doesn’t much matter to them.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 5:36 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:25 PM

What other circus tricks are you demanding of Romney and his supporters? Can we fluff your pillows and yell Marxist at Obama for you?

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:37 PM

What other circus tricks are you demanding of Romney and his supporters? Can we fluff your pillows and yell Marxist at Obama for you?

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:37 PM

Circus tricks?! Jeebus, all I’m wondering is why I haven’t seen a single ad decrying this ongoing miscarriage of justice. I’d think this issue would be RIPE for a nationwide ad to run for at least a week or two in major markets, particularly down south along the border. Then again, I expected someone to tell me why it wouldn’t happen, and you couldn’t even manage that. Had to make it personal.

/TskTskTsk

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:39 PM

Perhaps Obama’s duplicity in working with Caldron on this is what he really is covering up.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:18 PM

I bet you are correct on that point. I wasn’t trying to minimize what you were saying before.

I wouldn’t let either Obama or Calderon off the hook for this. I was just remembering Calderon’s little speech to Congress and thinking cynically to myself that he is absolutely talking out of both sides of his mouth. I remember hearing afterward that Mexico’s immigration policy is very tough, and that they routinely prosecute and jail illegal aliens before booting them out, yet Calderon thinks it’s perfectly OK that we should just open our borders so that any of his citizens can come here whenever and however they feel like it. Sure, Felipe, sure.

My hunch is that he knows about F&F as well, but as usual, the MSM is running interference for him in addition to Obama and is putting it out there that he is ignorant of the whole thing.

PatriotGal2257 on June 24, 2012 at 5:43 PM

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:35 PM

Bill Whittle covers it well in his Afterburner: Follow the Ideology

Also, The Difference Between Wide Receiver & Fast And Furious

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 5:43 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:39 PM

Because it’s still the economy and we’re not stupid!

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:44 PM

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 5:43 PM

Thank you. I’ll be sure to give them both a good read.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:44 PM

Does anyone have details of the difference between the program that Bush authorized and F&F? I keep hearing the accusation that the program was started under Bush. I know that under Bush the guns were traceable, but I don’t know the full story. I would like to be able to shut the libs I hear up over this.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:35 PM

All of the guns under the Project: Gunrunner banner between 2006, when the project was instituted, and 2009 when Obama took office, were electronically traced such that all straw purchasers were arrested before the guns themselves could be used in violent crimes. The guns were then recovered and to my knowledge, not a one of them was used in a murder — until Obama and Holder shifted the focus of the project, under the “fast and furious” banner, so that over 2000 weapons legally defined as “assault rifles” disappeared completely into the hands of mostly SinaLoa gangsters. Felipe Calderon has insisted that he knew exactly what was going on under Bush, but was left out of the loop completely under the Holder DOJ, and from the limited documentation that Holder has provided to Congress so far, there is no reason to believe that Holder, Obama, or anyone else involved ever had any plans to actually make arrests and get those guns back.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:45 PM

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 3:58 PM

All the mass of information available on this simply does not match what you are saying. Did you read the McCarthy article? No way Holder and Obama could not know about this. They ordered it knowing there would be deaths, and they didn’t care. These people are not conspiracy nuts. You don’t want to see the truth.

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 5:46 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:39 PM

Because it’s still the economy and we’re not stupid!

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:44 PM

The economy is more important than 300 dead mexicans and two American lives? Really? That’s some might weak tea, Brutus. Ask Agent Terry what he thinks about the economy. Oh, sorry. That’s right. You can’t because he was murdered with a Fast & Furious gun!

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:46 PM

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 5:17 PM

I’m positive Holder/Obama are hiding something, but the timeline of the requested documents does not support DOJ/WH involvement in the F&F operation. If that were the case, why wouldn’t Issa be requesting DOJ/WH documents pre-December 10th, 2011? I’m not attempting to be obtuse, but the withheld documents are dated months AFTER agent Terry was killed (Feb 4th-Dec, 2011). There is NO EVIDENCE DOJ/WH had ANYTHING to do with the operation. I suspect they have claimed executive privilege to mask their bungling of the PR and investigation after Agent Terry was murdered.Holder is a tool, but I have yet to see evidence of his fingerprints regarding Terry’s death. Just because some wish it so, doesn’t make it true.
Regardless, there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge the facts, and will just propagate the “conspiracy” in hopes that it is true (see; birth certificate).
Have a good night.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:49 PM

Unless, of course, the words coming out of the Chairman’s own mouth are not to be believed. The docs he’s seeking are from after Feb4, 2011. Agent terry was killed dec 10, 2011. There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

He can’t say they have the proof yet. It’s in all the papers Holder won’t turn over. Hello?

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 5:50 PM

I’m positive Holder/Obama are hiding something, but the timeline of the requested documents does not support DOJ/WH involvement in the F&F operation. If that were the case, why wouldn’t Issa be requesting DOJ/WH documents pre-December 10th, 2011? I’m not attempting to be obtuse, but the withheld documents are dated months AFTER agent Terry was killed (Feb 4th-Dec, 2011). There is NO EVIDENCE DOJ/WH had ANYTHING to do with the operation. I suspect they have claimed executive privilege to mask their bungling of the PR and investigation after Agent Terry was murdered.Holder is a tool, but I have yet to see evidence of his fingerprints regarding Terry’s death. Just because some wish it so, doesn’t make it true.
Regardless, there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge the facts, and will just propagate the “conspiracy” in hopes that it is true (see; birth certificate).
Have a good night.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:49 PM

If there is no evidence, there should be nothing to hide. Because they have something to hide, a reasonable person would assume that there is evidence. Thus, the contempt charge against Holder.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:51 PM

but I have yet to see evidence
greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:49 PM

You look dumber and dumber with each post.

CW on June 24, 2012 at 5:51 PM

My hunch is that he knows about F&F as well, but as usual, the MSM is running interference for him in addition to Obama and is putting it out there that he is ignorant of the whole thing.

PatriotGal2257 on June 24, 2012 at 5:43 PM

This was also my purpose for including the second YouTube link to Calderon asking Congress to consider an assault weapon ban.

It sure sounds like he’s reading the same playbook that Sarah Brady, the Clintons and Obama and Holder are reading.

PatriotGal2257 on June 24, 2012 at 5:53 PM

Creepy er than evah

Key West Reader on June 24, 2012 at 5:55 PM

As for chain of command, have you read Andy McCarthy in NRO today Fast and Furious and OCDETF: Whom is executive privilege protecting? He explains that because F&F was an OCDETF project, it had to have been authorized and supervised at the very top level, likely involving Holder and probably Øbama too.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 5:29 PM

McCarthy does a good job on the OCDETF angle, but again it isn’t news, per se. If all you did was follow Sipsey Street, you knew about the significance of OCDETF involvement.

But think: F&F involved multiple agencies and cabinet level departments, through OCDETF and other ways. So far, Issa is only looking at the DOJ and agencies within the DOJ. What happens when documents reveal involvement in F&F, or the coverup, in agencies and departments outside the DOJ?

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM

But think: F&F involved multiple agencies and cabinet level departments, through OCDETF and other ways. So far, Issa is only looking at the DOJ and agencies within the DOJ. What happens when documents reveal involvement in F&F, or the coverup, in agencies and departments outside the DOJ?

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM

It will make Watergate look like some dumb jock cheating on a high school biology test. That is, if we ever do find out about it.

Paging Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney, please pick up the white courtesy phone.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:58 PM

Does anyone have details of the difference between the program that Bush authorized and F&F? I keep hearing the accusation that the program was started under Bush. I know that under Bush the guns were traceable, but I don’t know the full story. I would like to be able to shut the libs I hear up over this.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:35 PM

Maybe this will help.

http://rinosandrats.com/2011/09/the-gunwalker-scandal-overview-timeline/

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 6:02 PM

But think: F&F involved multiple agencies and cabinet level departments, through OCDETF and other ways. So far, Issa is only looking at the DOJ and agencies within the DOJ. What happens when documents reveal involvement in F&F, or the coverup, in agencies and departments outside the DOJ?

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 5:57 PM

As Frank might say, “The best is yet to come“.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 6:03 PM

You look dumber and dumber with each post.

CW on June 24, 2012 at 5:51 PM

I read on the Blaze that Obama himself pulled the trigger murdering Agent Terry, and that he was wearing a pink dress, high heels, and screamed “Allahu akbar” as he did it. Afterwards, Obama, Holder Emanuel, Jarrette, and that Carney weasel danced around his dead body.
Unless Holder/Obama release the documents proving otherwise I’m gonna run with it. It sounds plausible.Hopefully Hannity will pick it up and run with it too.

There, is that better?

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 6:05 PM

You look dumber and dumber with each post.

CW on June 24, 2012 at 5:51 PM

I read on the Blaze that Obama himself pulled the trigger murdering Agent Terry, and that he was wearing a pink dress, high heels, and screamed “Allahu akbar” as he did it. Afterwards, Obama, Holder Emanuel, Jarrette, and that Carney weasel danced around his dead body.
Unless Holder/Obama release the documents proving otherwise I’m gonna run with it. It sounds plausible.Hopefully Hannity will pick it up and run with it too.

There, is that better?

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 6:05 PM

What CW said.

silvernana on June 24, 2012 at 6:08 PM

I have yet to see a shred of evidence that would suggest Holder or Obama knew of the botched operation before the tragic death of Brian Terry.

Andy McCarthy over at National Review mentioned something about an OCDETF – something that requires the knowledge of folks at the highest levels of the DOJ:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/303808/fast-and-furious-and-ocdetf-andrew-c-mccarthy

In a letter from Ronald Welch to Issa’s committee (dated June, 2011), mention is most definitely made about an OCDETF being obtained in 2010 from the regional ATF/DOJ office.

http://www.grassley.senate.gov/judiciary/upload/ATF-08-16-11-CEG-DEI-letter-to-Holder-Melson-transcript-agreement-with-Grassley-failures.pdf

It’s hard to imagine that Holder didn’t know about it, given that the DOJ/ATF was already planning a huge celebration touting the success of the F&F program at its conclusion….

TeresainFortWorth on June 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM

I think the goal behind Fast & Furious was to tie two issues together, immigration and gun control, with the emphasis on immigration.

Democrats are salivating at the prospect of locking up a monopoly on the Hispanic vote for decades to come. This is why they’ve been trying to paint Jan Brewer as the 2nd coming of Bull Connor.

Obama and Holder wanted to be able to make the argument that because Right wingers march in lock step with the NRA, they are enabling gun violence along the Mexican border, which plays right into their xenophobic hatred of Mexican immigrants.

Obama was hoping to give a speech and say “ya know, maybe if so many guns that are manufactured here in the US weren’t being brought across the border to Mexico, we wouldn’t have so much gun violence in the border areas, and maybe then we could sit down and have a rational discussion about immigration without all this fear mongering and demonizing of people who look a little different and talk a little different”.

ardenenoch on June 24, 2012 at 6:13 PM

Unless, of course, the words coming out of the Chairman’s own mouth are not to be believed. The docs he’s seeking are from after Feb4, 2011. Agent terry was killed dec 10, 2011. There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

He’s not there yet. As he’s said many times, Holder stated in Feb 2011 he had no knowledge of F&F. The only documents Issa wants are those related to Holder’s preparation for his testimony and shed light into why Holder gave the panel completely false information, intentionally or otherwise. So contempt first, get the docs, then they could be going after perjury next. After that, I’m sure they’ll go after the whole enchilada.

Which is why the Exec Privilege play by Obama was so amateurish and desperate and saying Issa is just on a witch hunt to get Obama are nonsense.

People here are certainly speculating Obama had something to do with F&F. But this looks real bad.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 6:14 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:46 PM

Place your value judgements where you will. The election will be won based on the economy, not on the F&F scandal. No, that does not mean that I find anything about F&F to be anything other than outrageous, wrong, corrupt and politically motivated. It is a simple statement of fact.

I’ve gotten some good info from folks here and found a few other facts as well. The biggest difference it seems to me (putting aside the fact that PBHO coordinated with Mexico and sent guns down to that nation which could not be tracked), is that Obama conducted his operation specifically to target AMERICANS! His program was a purely political assault on the 2nd Amendment.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:14 PM

There, is that better?

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 6:05 PM

Hunny bunny, if Obama was in no way responsible for Operation: Fast & Furious, then the Watergate break-in really was a third-rate burglary.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Here’s my blog post about F&F – I didn’t have the energy to include all of the people who were transferred, resigned, or “decided to spend more time with their family”….

http://teresainfortworth.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/the-real-life-fast-and-furious-more-twists-and-turns-than-a-hollywood-movie/

The big Kahuna is Kevin O’Reilly, and he was shipped off to Iraq, if I recall…..

TeresainFortWorth on June 24, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Does anyone have details of the difference between the program that Bush authorized and F&F? I keep hearing the accusation that the program was started under Bush. I know that under Bush the guns were traceable, but I don’t know the full story. I would like to be able to shut the libs I hear up over this.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 5:35 PM

You have been given some good links and info. Let me try a nutshell:

Under Bush- Wide Receiver: Guns were bugged, cooperation with Mexican authorities, straw purchasers were followed to the border, Mexican police informed when guns were crossing. When the bugs and the Mexicans proved unreliable, and some guns were lost, the program was ended by the Bush administration.

Under Obama: Fast and Furious: No attempt to track the guns that FFLs were instructed to sell in violation of the law. No attempt to follow the straw purchasers. Guns were freely allowed to cross the border. Project continued as 2,000 weapons were trafficked to Mexico (at least that we know), guns were found at Mexican crime scenes, and hundreds were murdered in Mexico. Project wasn’t ended until the murder of Brian Terry threatened to expose the criminal conspirators responsible.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 6:16 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 5:58 PM

Clue in Gryph. Romney does not need to get his hands in this. Congress is doing its job investigating. If justice is done and Holder put in a cage, Mitt will benefit just the same. And he will do so without being the “bad cop conducting a political witch hunt.”

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:17 PM

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 6:16 PM

Thank you. What’s most disturbing to me, is that while Wide Receiver was an attempt to combat the Mexican drug cartels, F&F was an attempt to influence the domestic debate on gun control!

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:18 PM

As Frank might say, “The best is yet to come“.

petefrt on June 24, 2012 at 6:03 PM

Well, the whole thing is a travesty and a tragedy for the country.

But, yes.

I’m more confident that ever the truth, or most of it, will eventually come out. Wholesale pardons, or people in Obama’s inner circle go to prison.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM

Project continued as 2,000 weapons were trafficked to Mexico (at least that we know), guns were found at Mexican crime scenes,

According to Ronald Welch’s June, 2011 letter, 274 F&F guns were recovered at the scene of 11 violent crime scenes on the AMERICAN side of the border (brought back over by Mexican nationals).

TeresainFortWorth on June 24, 2012 at 6:21 PM

Place your value judgements where you will. The election will be won based on the economy, not on the F&F scandal. No, that does not mean that I find anything about F&F to be anything other than outrageous, wrong, corrupt and politically motivated. It is a simple statement of fact.

I’ve gotten some good info from folks here and found a few other facts as well. The biggest difference it seems to me (putting aside the fact that PBHO coordinated with Mexico and sent guns down to that nation which could not be tracked), is that Obama conducted his operation specifically to target AMERICANS! His program was a purely political assault on the 2nd Amendment.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:14 PM

So Romney can’t talk about the economy and F&F at the same time? Is that what you’re saying here? Or are you telling me that you really believe asking questions about a government program under Obama that led to hundreds of human deaths, is a losing proposition? Really?! Whether or not that’s a values judgment, that seems like just good politics to me. I’m not advocating that Romney come right out and call Obama evil. Even the incorrigible ABR’s believe that Obama is evil. But people died, for Crissake. That’s the big difference here, and as a Republican voter, that’s all you need to know: No one died under Wide Receiver. Hundreds of people, including AT LEAST a couple of American citizens, died under Fast & Furious.

Neither am I asking Romney to accuse Obama of being complicit in those deaths (although I believe he is; that’s beside the point politically). Just run a few ads for a week or two nationwide: “What does Eric Holder have to hide, and just how involved was Obama?” For God’s sake, trying shit like this in the court of public opinion is EXACTLY what politics ought to be about! And that has NOTHING to do with Romney’s subsequent ability to continue talking about the economy. This cuts right to the heart of what a duplicitous, dishonest scumbag our president is. Pointing that out would do Romney’s campaign a great service in distancing Romney from Obama, which I’ve said he should do more of all along — viz-a-vis the economy AND otherwise!

/facepalm

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:22 PM

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