Missing the point on Fast and Furious

posted at 11:01 am on June 24, 2012 by Jazz Shaw

This week we are likely to see the next act unfold in the ongoing saga of the Fast and Furious investigation as the full House considers whether or not to take any further action regarding the Attorney General’s reticence in handing over documents related to the program. One result of this has been some sadly predictable tongue clucking and accusations from the anti-gun lobby on the Left. The rationale invoked in these screeds is curious at best, but given how common it’s become we should probably take a look at a couple of prime examples.

The first comes to us courtesy of Andrew Cohen at The Atlantic. An early indicator to look for is the often repeated array of adjectives which these critics of the critics of the program use when describing it. Cohen goes with “failed gun-running sting.” He later ups the ante with, “a bad idea, poorly done.” It’s a constant theme these days in liberal coffee klatches. F&F wasn’t all that unusual or worthy of all this attention… it was just a poorly thought out effort to address a criminal problem.

So what should we be concerned about, in Cohen’s humble opinion?

None of this rancor excuses the poor judgment — across two administrations — which generated the program itself. And none of it justifies the burgeoning political battle over the scope of the documents the Republicans want Holder to hand over. Like so much else about Washington’s ruined politics these days, the partisan shouting will escalate, ribbons of blame will be laid, vast amounts of time and money will be spent, and the real problem will go unsolved…

But what’s the “real problem?”

The Brady Campaign contends that the “Fast and Furious” program involved about 2,000 firearms crossing the border into Mexico, about 3 percent of the guns moving from U.S. gun shops to Mexico in the last four years. The center’s Denis Henigan wants House Republicans, the ones chasing Eric Holder, to focus instead upon the other 97 percent of those guns.

See? Republicans are just “playing politics” with this and ignoring the real problem, which is that there are just too gosh darn many guns around in the US. And if there weren’t, then they wouldn’t be finding their way into Mexico. This whole, “you’re just playing politics” theme is echoed even more strongly in an editorial by Chris Hayes, he of rhetorically proximate fame. This whole thing is the Republicans’ fault because we’re living in The Era of Post-truth Politics.

Given what we know about the Republican Party, and the way the House of Representatives conducts itself when run by Republicans and with a Democrat in the White House, it shouldn’t really count as news when a House committee finds the Democratic attorney general in contempt of Congress…

But, alas, conservatives and House Republicans are good at ginning up outrage and their target is the Fast and Furious program, an attempt begun under the Bush administration to track illegal guns as they made their way through the hands of Mexican drug traffickers. The tracking wasn’t very well executed, and at least one of the guns that should have been monitored was used instead to shoot and kill Border Patrol agent Brian Terry. (This horrible tragedy was one of about 30-thousand people killed every year by guns. Somehow we don’t see much outrage and grief from Republicans about those).

This is pretty much a re-run of the Atlantic piece in many ways and seems to be the marching orders handed down from the White House. Here we see the program described as being not very well executed. (Hayes pulls up short of saying, “botched” which I’ve scored as the most common adjective used.) And the only fault by the Obama administration is not realizing that Republicans will never play fair so he should be tougher on them. In fact, as he cites Brian Terry’s death, Hayes barely has time to insert a parenthesis before bringing up how many other people are killed by guns.

Then there’s this gem:

And so, that’s why promoting this implausible conspiracy theory about a secret plot to make gun owners look bad by giving guns to Mexican traffickers is so important to the right and the NRA. It’s why they’ve been flogging Fast and Furious and why the NRA scored the vote on contempt. Since there is no actual case that the President wants to crush gun-rights, they have to make one.Because this is post-truth politics.

The author takes time out of his busy day to mock the idea of F&F being used as a tool to “make gun owners look bad” in the very same article where he uses his media platform to talk about the horrible situation of all these guns in America and gun deaths. The irony is palpable.

The reality is that the fact of 29,999 other gun related deaths does not make the death of Brian Terry one iota less tragic or important. And yes, there is a vast difference between criminals running guns into Mexico and the government doing it. We already know there is a problem with criminals looking to make big profits by running guns across the border and we need to beef up our efforts to curb that activity. We’re not surprised that criminals do this. We are surprised when the government does.

When it comes to Eric Holder and the President, a very old rule applies: the cover-up is almost always worse than the screw-up which led to it. And in terms of our democracy, the former may be more damaging than the latter. But Hayes and Cohen are welcome to keep telling themselves that it’s all dishonest politics and it’s only the Republicans who try to go after Democrats and prosecute them for political gain. I’m pretty sure Scooter Libby wrote something similar in his journal while doing his 400 hours of community service.


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According to Ronald Welch’s June, 2011 letter, 274 F&F guns were recovered at the scene of 11 violent crime scenes on the AMERICAN side of the border (brought back over by Mexican nationals).

TeresainFortWorth on June 24, 2012 at 6:21 PM

F&F guns will continue to turn up at crime scenes on our soil for decades to come. Those responsible for Fast&Furious didn’t just endanger Mexicans, for whom they appear to have little regard. That same indifference was displayed for the safety and welfare of Americans in America.

These people need to be identified, prosecuted, convicted, and imprisoned.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 6:27 PM

These people need to be identified, prosecuted, convicted, and imprisoned.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 6:27 PM

And I can not say it enough: They need to be tried in the court of public opinion and shamed, if not by the media, then by Republican politicians.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:31 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:22 PM

No, that is not what I said. Stuff your straw men.

What I told you is that Romney recognizes that is not smart for him to wade in. That Congress is pursuing the investigation, as they should. That Mitt it would not serve Mitt well to create the perception that he is politicizing the investigation. That if Issa and company are successful in prosecuting the case then Mitt will benefit as much if not more than he would by getting personally involved.

Just because the words coming from your own mouth are insufficient does not justify you attempting to stuff in them in to mine.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Everyone who learns about this says the same thing. “We were doing what?” This is big!

MrX on June 24, 2012 at 6:34 PM

“We’re not surprised that criminals do this. We are surprised when the government does.”

Is that sarcasm, Jazz?

locomotivebreath1901 on June 24, 2012 at 6:38 PM

Regardless, there will always be those that refuse to acknowledge the facts, and will just propagate the “conspiracy” in hopes that it is true (see; birth certificate).

Have a good night.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 5:49 PM

Translated: “I’m gonna quit while I’m still behind.”

We all know that you would never be giving this same benefit of a doubt to a Republican Administration doing this same thing.

And bringing up the birth certificate? Please don’t insult our intelligence.

Once again, Holder and O’bama can clear this whole thing up easy as pie. But the fact that they (not Issa’s Committee) have dragged this on almost as long as Clinton dragged out the Monica thing is proof positive that at the very least Holder is hiding something.

3 and a half years ago, your guy came into office claiming he would run “the most open and transparent Administration in history”.

If this is an example of that transparency, you must be very proud of him. Please tell us why you don’t want Holder and O’bama to prove Issa wrong.

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 6:38 PM

No, that is not what I said. Stuff your straw men.

What I told you is that Romney recognizes that is not smart for him to wade in. That Congress is pursuing the investigation, as they should. That Mitt it would not serve Mitt well to create the perception that he is politicizing the investigation. That if Issa and company are successful in prosecuting the case then Mitt will benefit as much if not more than he would by getting personally involved.

Just because the words coming from your own mouth are insufficient does not justify you attempting to stuff in them in to mine.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Why is it not smart for him to wade in? Why is it not smart for him to talk about anything that doesn’t involve the economy, particularly when it involves the death of American citizens as well as the potential for the future murders of American citizens? How can a shaming in the court of public opinion possibly be a loser in a presidential election year? I’m not asking that as a rhetorical question, MJ. If you know something I don’t about politics and the mind of the American voter, tell me now. But “Romney knows it isn’t smart” isn’t going to change a single ABR’s mind. I think you know better.

See, you’re talking about what happens if Issa successfully prosecutes the contempt case. What if he doesn’t? There’s no political contingency for what happens if Holder skates on these contempt charges? That doesn’t sound like smart politics to me. That sounds like cowardice.

I mean, Jeebus, Romney doesn’t have to run these ads himself. There are surrogates. Super PACs. If not Romney, then someone should milk this for all its worth.

There are three things we know right now at this point that should be enough to sway a significant number of fence sitters:

A) Two American citizens died as a direct result of F&F

B) Eric Holder has something to hide

C) Barack Obama is aiding Eric Holder in whatever it is Holder is concealing

I desperately want Mitt Romney to win, but I also desperately want to like him along the way. Throw me a freakin bone here, rombots! The ads write themselves!

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:40 PM

This is big!

MrX on June 24, 2012 at 6:34 PM

But I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer from a rombot as to why Romney should keep pounding on the economy to the exclusion of this scandal.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Ut oh, SOMEONE got a call from ValJar or the Mooch

lmao

Key West Reader on June 24, 2012 at 6:46 PM

There’s too much of a lot of stuff going across the border. That has nothing to do with Fast and Furious. Don’t get distracted.

A majority of the traceable weapons that are recovered by the Mexican government trace back to government-to-government sales approved by the State Department. Mexico is now one of the world’s biggest buyers of weapons. Instead of berating the US, perhaps the Mexican government might explain how so many of the weapons it buys end up in the hands of criminals.

Do those who want to write off F&F to partisan sniping explain why the president has asserted executive privilege? Do they question what about this botched operation must remain secret?

Given what we know about the Republican Party, and the way the House of Representatives conducts itself when run by Republicans and with a Democrat in the White House, it shouldn’t really count as news when a House committee finds the Democratic attorney general in contempt of Congress…

Really, Mr. Hayes? I’m curious, how many other Democratic AGs have House Republicans held in contempt of Congress?

SukieTawdry on June 24, 2012 at 6:48 PM

But I have yet to hear a satisfactory answer from a rombot as to why Romney should keep pounding on the economy to the exclusion of this scandal.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Maybe if you we’re calling people silly names they’d think you were interested in an adult conversation. Just a thought.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 6:58 PM

we’re –> weren’t

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 6:59 PM

Maybe if you we’re calling people silly names they’d think you were interested in an adult conversation. Just a thought.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 6:58 PM

The adult conversation should be between the candidates looking for votes and the voters. Instead, Romney behaves as if he’s already got in the bag. I have a standing bet with someone that Romney will win by fewer than 5 percentage points, and this is a prime example of why I feel the way I do. Instead of trying to convince me (which I am definitely open to), it’s more along the lines of, “Wahhhhhhh! You called me names! Call the wahhhhhhhmbulance!”

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM

Agent Terry would still be dead regardless of F&F, or any other 2nd amendment conspiracy envisaged. Whoever killed him would surely have done so no matter where his weapon came from.
 
greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 2:04 PM

 

Point being, as I stated earlier, I firmly believe that Agent Terry would have met the same unfortunate demise regardless of what, if any gun operation was in place.
 
greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:17 PM

 
So “predestination” is your defense? If not, what you say is impossible.
 
 
Terry is dead because a person using a gun from F&F killed him. He is dead because of that series of events. Seconds matter in that sequence. Minor changes mean Terry is alive.
 
To believe any other sequences would’ve (could’ve) placed the two individuals in those identical seconds with the same outcome is ridiculous.
 
No other occurrences equal that outcome. Only that one. The end.

rogerb on June 24, 2012 at 7:12 PM

And I can not say it enough: They need to be tried in the court of public opinion and shamed, if not by the media, then by Republican politicians.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:31 PM | Delete | Delete and Ban

We are a Nation of Laws.

Key West Reader on June 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

Yes, please, let’s not ignore the facts.

Note the notation on page 16 of the PDF document of the Stimulus Bill under the sections marked OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS, STATE AND LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT ASSISTANCE…

For an additional amount for ‘‘State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance’’, $40,000,000, for competitive grants to provide assistance and equipment to local law enforcement along the Southern border and in High-Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas to combat criminal narcotics activity stemming from the Southern border, of which $10,000,000 shall be transferred to ‘‘Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Salaries and Expenses’’ for the ATF Project Gunrunner.

Or if you’d prefer, you can listen for yourself while former Deputy Attorney General David Ogden refers to “Project Gunrunner” in a March 24, 2009 press conference.

Washington Post April 11, 2011

On March 30, 2011 the 30th anniversary of the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan, Jim Brady, who sustained a debilitating head wound in the attack, and his wife, Sarah, came to Capitol Hill to push for a ban on the controversial “large magazines.” Brady, for whom the law requiring background checks on handgun purchasers is named, then met with White House press secretary Jay Carney. During the meeting, President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.

“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”

Of course, it’s always better when it comes straight from the jackass’ horse’s own mouth.

Attorney General Eric Holder at the Mexico/United States Arms Trafficking Conference in CUERNAVACA, MEXICO Thursday, April 2, 2009

Last week, our administration launched a major new effort to break the backs of the cartels. My department is committing 100 new ATF personnel to the Southwest border in the next 100 days to supplement our ongoing Project Gunrunner, DEA is adding 16 new positions on the border, as well as mobile enforcement teams, and the FBI is creating a new intelligence group focusing on kidnapping and extortion. DHS is making similar commitments, as Secretary Napolitano will detail.

There’s some facts for you dearie. Make of them what you will.

Flora Duh on June 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Instead of trying to convince me (which I am definitely open to), it’s more along the lines of, “Wahhhhhhh! You called me names! Call the wahhhhhhhmbulance!”

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM

I’ve been called either a Mittbot or a Rombot several times by both you and ddrintn. I didn’t vote for Romney in the primary and have never been a huge fan of his. The only positive thing I’ve ever said about him was that he was running a much better campaign than I thought he would.

Seems to me you two just relish in being royal a-holes.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:14 PM

There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

Muhahahaha. Ah. Hahahaha.

Key West Reader on June 24, 2012 at 7:15 PM

I’ve been called either a Mittbot or a Rombot several times by both you and ddrintn. I didn’t vote for Romney in the primary and have never been a huge fan of his. The only positive thing I’ve ever said about him was that he was running a much better campaign than I thought he would.

Seems to me you two just relish in being royal a-holes.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:14 PM

I never called you a rombot. You must have me confused with someone else. Complain to someone who actually calls you names, and you’ll have a bit more credibility with me.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:16 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 6:31 PM | Delete | Delete and Ban

We are a Nation of Laws.

Key West Reader on June 24, 2012 at 7:13 PM

What does that have to do with trying a scandal in the court of public opinion in an election year? Is that illegal?

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM

I never called you a rombot. You must have me confused with someone else. Complain to someone who actually calls you names, and you’ll have a bit more credibility with me.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:16 PM

Nonsense. You did it right here in the thread. Anyone who doesn’t share your zeal in trashing Romney on whatever issue you demand he be trashed on is a “Rombot”. Then you whine no one wants to talk to you.

Again, just some friendly advice. You can put your nails away.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:24 PM

What does that have to do with trying a scandal in the court of public opinion in an election year? Is that illegal?

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM | Delete | Delete and Ban

Gryph, you know I love you. It is what it is.

Key West Reader on June 24, 2012 at 7:25 PM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM

You’ve been given an answer. Romney is a smart politician and you’re some schlub on the internet. He is doing the smart thing by allowing an active Congressional investigation to take its course. He is not saying stupid stuff, like “the police acted stupidly.”

You don’t find his campaign to your liking. Boo freaking hoo.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Nonsense. You did it right here in the thread. Anyone who doesn’t share your zeal in trashing Romney on whatever issue you demand he be trashed on is a “Rombot”. Then you whine no one wants to talk to you.

Again, just some friendly advice. You can put your nails away.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:24 PM

I called you nothing. I implied you were a rombot because I addressed rombots in another post in this particular thread, and you responded. It’s like screaming in a bar when everyone’s drunk, “Hey dumba$$,” and laughing at all the gin-soaked lushes who look up. Besides which, I have little personal antipathy for rombots apart from their seeming inability to think independently. Whether you self-identify with that crowd or not is your business.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM

You’ve been given an answer. Romney is a smart politician and you’re some schlub on the internet. He is doing the smart thing by allowing an active Congressional investigation to take its course. He is not saying stupid stuff, like “the police acted stupidly.”

You don’t find his campaign to your liking. Boo freaking hoo.

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 7:27 PM

I asked for a satisfactory answer. “Romney’s a smart politician” doesn’t cut it for me. You know who else was a smart politican? Bill Clinton. And he won two elections with 43 and 46 percent of the popular vote, respectively. It takes more than being a smart politician to win votes. It takes a concerted effort to convince enough voters that you’re better than the last guy was. I wish I could believe Romney was making that effort, but I just don’t see it. And being told that he’s smart because he’s ignoring what may be the biggest scandal in the history of our republic bar-none? That’s not making a case, Brutus. That’s parroting talking points.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:31 PM

I called you nothing. I implied you were a rombot because I addressed rombots in another post in this particular thread, and you responded. It’s like screaming in a bar when everyone’s drunk, “Hey dumba$$,” and laughing at all the gin-soaked lushes who look up. Besides which, I have little personal antipathy for rombots apart from their seeming inability to think independently. Whether you self-identify with that crowd or not is your business.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:28 PM

No, I suggested namecalling wasn’t a way to start an adult conversation and you flipped out. But good luck all the same. Hopefully you’ll get the attention you need here.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:48 PM

No, I suggested namecalling wasn’t a way to start an adult conversation and you flipped out. But good luck all the same. Hopefully you’ll get the attention you need here.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:48 PM

So, who was I calling a rombot, Chuckles? You sure seemed to take an awful lot of personal offense at something that wasn’t [initially] directed at you.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:49 PM

It takes more than being a smart politician to win votes. It takes a concerted effort to convince enough voters that you’re better than the last guy was. I wish I could believe Romney was making that effort, but I just don’t see it. And being told that he’s smart because he’s ignoring what may be the biggest scandal in the history of our republic bar-none? That’s not making a case, Brutus. That’s parroting talking points.gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:31 PM
……………………………
Its hard to argue with your logic.I’ll just say that there is a direct pathway to the Presidency.Start early, bring lots of dough,lots of the right people and bring some more money.
NO mystery why Mitt is where he is.
……………………………….

If you scroll down to the Bill Whittle video he makes a pretty good case that its all about gun control. “Surprisingly”? No one mentions Hillary who is into the fray up to her long assed hair as well.She could be yet another reason why O’Kardashian/Axelrod/Jarrett have invoked exec. privelege.Their entire goal is to stall stall stall,past Nov. and they probably will.
………………
http://danmillerinpanama.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/apes-have-been-rude-crude-and-unfair-to-attorney-general-holder/

rodguy911 on June 24, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Cripes, I left and came back to this.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 8:01 PM

If you scroll down to the Bill Whittle video he makes a pretty good case that its all about gun control. “Surprisingly”? No one mentions Hillary who is into the fray up to her long assed hair as well.She could be yet another reason why O’Kardashian/Axelrod/Jarrett have invoked exec. privelege.Their entire goal is to stall stall stall,past Nov. and they probably will.
………………
http://danmillerinpanama.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/apes-have-been-rude-crude-and-unfair-to-attorney-general-holder/

rodguy911 on June 24, 2012 at 8:00 PM

If it is all about gun control, that does make sense to me why Romney would avoid talking about it. He’s on record as being in favor of an assault weapons ban.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 8:01 PM

Here we see the program described as being not very well executed.

This is the operational equivalent of “blaming the messaging.” In effect, its not the operational objective that is in question, it was the how–the execution. This is how the theoretical underpinnings of any speech, operation, or policy can never be undermined. They are pure as the driven snow, only the message or the execution can be flawed. This is how liberals think, folks.

ted c on June 24, 2012 at 8:03 PM

They are pure as the driven snow, only the message or the execution can be flawed. This is how liberals think, folks.

ted c on June 24, 2012 at 8:03 PM

In other words,

SHIT! We got caught!

/libspeak

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 8:08 PM

It’s hard for conservatives to start that drum beat that libtards do so well. This is Watergate with piles of dead bodies thrown into the mix. We conservatives always want to finesse things instead of getting out the concert bass drum and pounding away. We need some boom-boom with this F&F scandal.

Mojave Mark on June 24, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Nothing less than a “Fast and Furious” gun showing up at the assassination of a major government official will get these political hacker to see otherwise.

J_Crater on June 24, 2012 at 8:19 PM

Nothing less than a “Fast and Furious” gun showing up at the assassination of a major government official will get these political hacker to see otherwise.

J_Crater on June 24, 2012 at 8:19 PM

You mean the dems or the rombots?

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 8:23 PM

Cripes, I left and came back to this.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 8:01 PM

Yeah, I know.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 8:26 PM

everyone is missing the point of what is really the major tragedy of what is happening here. The Democratic led justice dept. wanted to show how the situation of selling and owning firearms in the U.S. is out of control they needed an example , they could not do this in Nevada or California but it made perfect sense to do such a project in Arizona because what is the worst that would happen , A couple of Mexicans would be killed , who would care .

if you doubt this and think this is a conspiracy theory just listen to the likes of , Rachel Maddow and Bill Maher , they both said this was “a nothing situation ” well this situation not only got a brave border patrol agent killed but not once did these terrific liberals speak for the nameless souls who are killed every day as they cross the desert and killed by Guides who rob ,Rape and murder Men Women and children

these are the people who some should talk for and as a American Mexican I think it will begin with me.

hondo59 on June 24, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Cripes, I left and came back to this.

a capella on June 24, 2012 at 8:01 PM

Yeah, I know.

novaculus on June 24, 2012 at 8:26 PM

Sad, isn’t it?

Oh well, here’s another Greatest Hit

Welcome to the right side of the issue. I hope you’ll stay with us in the future.

crr6 on June 18, 2011 at 2:38 AM

Del Dolemonte on June 24, 2012 at 9:06 PM

You have to be a liberal hence the reason why you make so much sense on this topic.
 
Uppereastside on April 22, 2012 at 2:56 PM

rogerb on June 24, 2012 at 9:09 PM

House Republicans have resorted to partisan finger-pointing over 3 percent of the guns crossing the border — and ignored the other 97 percent.

What a strange comment. There were thousands of burglaries occurring in the US in 1973 but the Democrats were fixated on one that happened at some hotel.

Don’t blame Mexico for the drugs that come across the border because US demand is what’s to blame. I’ve heard that argument a thousand times. Meanwhile, they want to curb the 2nd Amendment because of foreign demand for the only product besides alcohol ( after the repeal of prohibition ) that US citizens have an affirmative right to own.

Shouldn’t they be trying to arm the rest of Mexico to defend themselves from Obama’s gunmen or are the Democrats’ arguing that Mexicans in general aren’t responsible enough to bear arms?

Buddahpundit on June 24, 2012 at 10:11 PM

Instead of trying to convince me (which I am definitely open to), it’s more along the lines of, “Wahhhhhhh! You called me names! Call the wahhhhhhhmbulance!”

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:09 PM

But a few days ago you complained bitterly because someone here had used the expression “TrueCon”. Try the Golden Rule.

Gelsomina on June 24, 2012 at 10:16 PM

Hey JAZZ!!

Never cover this kind of story about liberal reactions to Fast and Furious without correcting their constant attempt to tie it to the Bush administration. Both quoted columnists make the exact same attempt: to claim that the Bush administration started it all. It’s just as much a talking point for the left as any of the others you point out.

The most that can be said is that F&F was similar to the Bush administration program, EXCEPT:
– the Bush program actually did track guns
– the Bush program worked with the Mexican government
– the Bush program shut down the moment they lost track of guns
– the Bush program was already shut down when F&F started

IOW, everything about the Fast and Furious program that is scandalous WAS NOT TRUE of Operation Wide Receiver in the Bush administration.

All these attempts to tie it to the Bush administration program are lies, and should be called out as lies.

The Democrats own this one.

There Goes The Neighborhood on June 24, 2012 at 10:18 PM

But a few days ago you complained bitterly because someone here had used the expression “TrueCon”. Try the Golden Rule.

Gelsomina on June 24, 2012 at 10:16 PM

Then we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes “complaining bitterly.” I made the emotionally neutral observation that it’s curious that people who consider themselves “conservative” were bandying about the term “truecon” like it’s a dirty word. If that sounded like a complaint, then I’m sorry. That’s not the spirit in which I intended it.

Movement conservatism in America is going the way of conservatism in Great Britain. No one needs to look any farther than at our very own Republican party for evidence of that, and it was in that spirit that I made that observation.

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 10:22 PM

IOW, everything about the Fast and Furious program that is scandalous WAS NOT TRUE of Operation Wide Receiver in the Bush administration.

All these attempts to tie it to the Bush administration program are lies, and should be called out as lies.

The Democrats own this one.

There Goes The Neighborhood on June 24, 2012 at 10:18 PM

Who should do the calling out? Do you think this is an appropriate line of campaigning for Mitt Romney and/or his surrogates to pursue?

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 10:24 PM

Then don’t you ever criticize Maobama EVER again.

You’ve lost that right by being an ignoramus who sees no difference between a moderate and a Marxist.

LevinFan on June 24, 2012 at 4:45 PM

Like I said, I’ll criticize whomever I damn well please.
And you’ve lost the right to tell ANYONE WHO THEY CAN AND CANNOT CRITICIZE by being a lame-brained Romney cultist. I can see that, despite your name, you don’t listen, or have anything to do with the Great One himself. Good day, sir.

Dunedainn on June 25, 2012 at 12:39 AM

Of course no one actually has a clue how many guns illegally crossed the border in the last four years because gunrunners never return those survey forms. So to say F&F was “only 3%” of them is mere speculation.

The numbers aren’t really the point anyway. In none of the other cases were the actions approved in advance by DOJ HQ. And we KNOW these had to be because of the wiretapping. So Holder has been lying all along.

If it is insignificant, why didn’t he just tell the truth?

Adjoran on June 25, 2012 at 2:09 AM

Fast and furious is little more than AGW — an elaborate scheme specifically designed to cause an emotional reaction and allow the Marxist left to win highly strategic battles they have long planned in their war against a free and prosperous America.

AGW makes sovereign nations and their borders impossible to defend, The one world government kneecaps (and trades) our independence for their total control. Do we not realize the prime political birth was through the UN’s totalitarian womb, but only after years of softening up the target with eco-fragility propaganda?

Fast and Furious was aimed at taking away our guns that any serious resistance would become impossible or suicidal.

All the rest is nuance and window dressing.

Which is why the problems we face are far larger than merely Obama -he’s merely a pawn.

Don L on June 25, 2012 at 4:22 AM

‘Shoot the dictator and prevent the war? But the dictator is merely the tip of the whole festering boil of social pus from which dictators emerge; shoot him and there’ll be another one along in a minute. Shoot him too? Why not shoot everyone and invade Poland?’
–Terry Pratchett’s Lords and Ladies

Which is why the problems we face are far larger than merely Obama -he’s merely a pawn.

Don L on June 25, 2012 at 4:22 AM

That’s why November 6th is so important. We need to rebuke the left. We need to take back Congress before the left and pack the courts and government offices with more Eric Holders.

Vote’em out. Organize. Boycott the liberal media. De-fund NPR.

Drain the boil.

Chockblock on June 25, 2012 at 4:34 AM

Who should do the calling out? Do you think this is an appropriate line of campaigning for Mitt Romney and/or his surrogates to pursue?

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 10:24 PM

Who? Everyone. Everyone who hears the same old line about how Bush started the program but Obama ended it, even though Bush ended the program 2 years before Obama started a different program, should point out it’s not true. Even if it’s as simple as, “The Bush program ended in 2007, two years before Obama was inaugurated.”

As for Romney, I fully expect him to pussyfoot around the issue. I suppose it’s inevitable, since it still needs to be driven by Congress. But it would be a mistake for him to say nothing at all. Even if he limits himself to saying, “These are very serious questions, and they need to be answered. I’m waiting to see the results of the investigation.”

He doesn’t need to jump out and drive the question, but he needs to mention it. We’re five months from the election, and the media is watching the horse race like a hawk. If Romney talks about F&F, it’s instantly news. It makes it that much harder for Obama to run out the clock.

As a certain famous movie quote has it, “Sweep the leg.”

There Goes The Neighborhood on June 25, 2012 at 5:03 AM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:31 PM

Stop being such a dishonest schmuck. The answer you were given was not in that post, it was given in several of the prior responses to you. And it’s not satisfactory to you. Too freaking bad.

MJBrutus on June 25, 2012 at 6:02 AM

What does that have to do with trying a scandal in the court of public opinion in an election year? Is that illegal?

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:17 PM

This is another false argument. Issa started this investigation 18 months ago and has been fighting continual delays and refusals of documents throughout!

TX_HCG on June 25, 2012 at 6:31 AM

Why doesn’t the Brady Campaign, Democrats, and most especially the jug-eared Kenyan in the White House want to see justice for Brian Terry? It is almost insulting that these commie bastards are more interested in defending the potentially illegal actions of Holder and Obama than any real intention of finding out exactly who did what and when. Utterly disgusting and an even newer low for the filthy dictator in the White House.

Happy Nomad on June 25, 2012 at 7:04 AM

As for Romney, I fully expect him to pussyfoot around the issue. I suppose it’s inevitable, since it still needs to be driven by Congress. But it would be a mistake for him to say nothing at all. Even if he limits himself to saying, “These are very serious questions, and they need to be answered. I’m waiting to see the results of the investigation.”

There Goes The Neighborhood on June 25, 2012 at 5:03 AM

This really isn’t Romney’s fight. He has no insider knowledge of what is going on nor any official role in the matter. It’s fine to express generic concerns about the questions being raised but, beyond that, I think the best political strategy is to stay away from the whole issue for the time being. Let the contempt charge make its way through the process and see the aftermath of that before weighing in with any specificity.

Happy Nomad on June 25, 2012 at 7:08 AM

Dems don’t think this is a big deal because it was just a bunch of Mexicans and a few cops that got killed. Had it been Palestinians or spotted owls they would be far more outraged.

Rancher on June 25, 2012 at 7:45 AM

Dems don’t think this is a big deal because it was just a bunch of Mexicans and a few cops that got killed. Had it been Palestinians or spotted owls they would be far more outraged.

Rancher on June 25, 2012 at 7:45 AM

Hell! They are more upset that Bradley Manning is being held in solitary confinement at Ft Leavenworth than they are about the death of hundereds of Mexicans by weapons supplied by Eric Holder.

Happy Nomad on June 25, 2012 at 7:53 AM

This is another false argument. Issa started this investigation 18 months ago and has been fighting continual delays and refusals of documents throughout!

TX_HCG on June 25, 2012 at 6:31 AM

Right. So how come the Republican party isn’t making this a campaign issue? It’s not a false argument, it’s a legitimate question. This is being voted on in the halls of congress. Fine. It should also be shouted from the rooftops, IMO.

gryphon202 on June 25, 2012 at 8:03 AM

This really isn’t Romney’s fight. He has no insider knowledge of what is going on nor any official role in the matter. It’s fine to express generic concerns about the questions being raised but, beyond that, I think the best political strategy is to stay away from the whole issue for the time being. Let the contempt charge make its way through the process and see the aftermath of that before weighing in with any specificity.

Happy Nomad on June 25, 2012 at 7:08 AM

This is the best explanation I’ve heard for what’s going on so far. Thanks, Nomad. I still can’t help but wonder if Romney will make an issue of this post-convention, but I suppose there’s time between now and November to see how it shakes out.

gryphon202 on June 25, 2012 at 8:05 AM

Exactly – if by some insane fluke this investigation stalls or hits a wall, why should Romney be caught flatfooted? Let him address the overwhelming concern about jobs and the economy – that’s where the votes will be.

datripp on June 25, 2012 at 8:17 AM

Missing Avoiding the point on Fast and Furious

Dollayo on June 25, 2012 at 8:19 AM

Wait…what? The Obama administration was running guns into Mexico? How come no one told me about this before?

//reaction of about 40% of the country this week.

bitsy on June 25, 2012 at 8:35 AM

Why doesn’t the Brady Campaign, Democrats, and most especially the jug-eared Kenyan in the White House want to see justice for Brian Terry? It is almost insulting that these commie bastards are more interested in defending the potentially illegal actions of Holder and Obama than any real intention of finding out exactly who did what and when. Utterly disgusting and an even newer low for the filthy dictator in the White House.

Happy Nomad on June 25, 2012 at 7:04 AM

Its called Power. The Agenda has to be pushed forward. Justice for a Border agent will not further the agenda, because it exposes it. Also do not forget Zapata, his death is also very important because his name is tied to a memo of an investigation where F&F weapons were found and his ‘hit’ at a roadblock is mysterious.

The Bradys and the Dems want absolute Power over 350million Americans. They have it over 42% right now. The rest will resist, they have to be disarmed.

The Bradys are patsys, they’ll be the first into the GreenLabor Camps.

As someone said on AR15.com, when they whisper up to us, to help them escape the hell they have created, we will shout back NO!.

FUBO.

orbitalair on June 25, 2012 at 8:35 AM

gryphon202 on June 24, 2012 at 7:31 PM

Stop being such a dishonest schmuck. The answer you were given was not in that post, it was given in several of the prior responses to you. And it’s not satisfactory to you. Too freaking bad.

MJBrutus on June 25, 2012 at 6:02 AM

Project much? I’m not the politician running for office on a conservative platform who signed the blueprint for Obamacare into law and professed a support for assault weapons ban. I’m not the guy who called himself “progressive” ten years ago. Your boy Mitt, on the other hand…

gryphon202 on June 25, 2012 at 8:47 AM

MJBrutus on June 24, 2012 at 6:14 PM

The economy will win the election, but Fast & Furious will exhaust Obama’s energy during the campaign. A smart campaign will focus on all of the above to wear down their opponent and sow multiple doubts as to the competence of the current occupier.

dominigan on June 25, 2012 at 9:20 AM

There isn’t a single shred of evidence that Holder or Obama had any knowledge of the operation before Terry’s unfortunate death. None.Zip. Nada. Anyone suggesting otherwise is simply ignoring the facts.

greataunty on June 24, 2012 at 4:33 PM

Except for President Obama admitting through his Executive Privilege defense that some of those 140,000 documents contain correspondence directly with him or his direct advisers!

dominigan on June 25, 2012 at 9:27 AM

dominigan on June 25, 2012 at 9:27 AM

Issa’s the real culprit here!‘GWB started the program!!!

greataunty is one of those 0bamessiah stooges who believes that He is trying to moving Heaven, Hell, and the Earth in order to get all of the facts out about Terry’s death, but Issa’s insistence on doing an investigation anyway is interfering with this noble effort of His!

These Leftist bozos are too stupid to understand how rationalizing/gullible/easily manipulated they are – it’s like watching the AGW movement in action! :)

Bizarro No. 1 on June 25, 2012 at 11:06 AM

From my website:

http://truthandcommonsense.com/2012/06/25/missing-the-point-over-the-fast-and-furious-the-liberal-media-attempts-to-rewrite-history/

The real issue is the fact this is another example of the Left’s “ends justify the means.”

…5. After the death of a Border Patrol officer, the wheels started coming off and people began to scramble to cover up their part in the scheme. People were protected, refused to testify, whistleblowers were harassed and attacked, the MSM was given marching orders to try and deflect the issue, documents refused, lies told and now documents that will prove who knew what are being covered by Executive Privilege.

6. Was Obama in on it? Sure, from an executive level. However, Holder is knee deep in it, he had to be. The DOJ was ready to pounce as was the ATF with new regulations and lawsuits, so who gave them the heads up?

Obama’s problem stems from the fact we sent guns into another sovereign nation in order to get its citizens killed (remember nothing works unless there is blood) without telling that nation. No way he didn’t give the okay for that. That alone should be enough. How would we react if we knew the Mexicans were sending weapons to our gangs in order to build up a body count as a way to push a Mexican political agenda? Remember, we sent guns into Mexico in hopes of getting Mexican people violently murdered- including police and soldiers and poor innocent women and children- and we did it intentionally. You can’t get around that. It surprises me even the liberal press won’t jump on this regardless of who is in charge of the government on principle alone! (Remember Iran/Contra?) But it should make all doubters finally realize that the MSM can no longer be trusted at any level.

What is this really like? Imagine in order to push the right to abortion agenda, the administration deliberately sent out back alley doctors with rusty tools in order to kill a number of women seeking abortions. Enough dead girls in alleys and suddenly we are demanding the right to abortion. Or, worse, what if there was already the right to abortion, but the Left wanted to cement even MORE rules and regulations so they sent out bad doctors to create deaths above and beyond, as a way to promote the agenda. (Think of the number of restrictions on weapons already in place, and the Left is still not satisfied.)

Maybe the EPA could go around and throw their own dirt on private land that isn’t being developed just to prove they need more regulations protecting wetlands. Or give the go ahead for companies to send raw pollutants into rivers just to prove the EPA needs more power.

In essence, this is what we are seeing here. What we are witnessing, what we have seen from the outset of this administration is the mantra “the ends justify the means.” It won’t get any better. What the Obama administration and the rest of the Left is trying to prevent you from “getting” is this a crime, an unforced error that shows just how little this administration cares about anything other than itself and its own agenda.

Spooky dude kind of stuff when you think about it.

archer52 on June 25, 2012 at 12:32 PM

Project much? I’m not the politician running for office on a conservative platform who signed the blueprint for Obamacare into law and professed a support for assault weapons ban. I’m not the guy who called himself “progressive” ten years ago. Your boy Mitt, on the other hand…

gryphon202 on June 25, 2012 at 8:47 AM

Be careful my friend, lest LevinMoby ‘revoke’ your Obama criticism ‘privileges’ for daring to question His Royal Highness, King Willard the Inevitable!

Dunedainn on June 25, 2012 at 5:23 PM

No, I suggested namecalling wasn’t a way to start an adult conversation and you flipped out. But good luck all the same. Hopefully you’ll get the attention you need here.

Chuck Schick on June 24, 2012 at 7:48 PM

Calling commenters at HA names is not unusual for gryphon. I think you are right, it’s a play for attention.

Dollayo on June 25, 2012 at 6:08 PM

Not sure if anyone has posted these little factoids yet, because I didn’t scan through all the replies…

… An AK-47 costs $100 on the open market outside the U.S. Inside the U.S. an AK-47 costs about $500.

Why would gun smugglers risk smuggling $500 weapons from the U.S. when they can buy them on the world market for $100?

… Yes, may U.S. weapons are being provided to Mexico by U.S. interests, legally, and most of those are sold the the Mexican Army by the U.S. Army. And quite a number of these weapons end up in drug cartel hands.

The idea that Mexican drug cartels are coming to the U.S. buying legal guns from legal gun dealers and smuggling them across the boarder is a real stretch, because in reality that is not where the cartels and criminals in Mexico get the bulk of their guns.

… Furthermore, the only true evidence of legal guns being bought in the U.S. and smuggled to Mexican cartels are the ones bought and sold by the ATF.

Lawrence on June 26, 2012 at 10:23 AM

Calling commenters at HA names is not unusual for gryphon. I think you are right, it’s a play for attention.

Dollayo on June 25, 2012 at 6:08 PM

I suppose so. Cause rombots never call us “truecons” names at all. Never ever ever.

/PBBBBBBT

gryphon202 on June 26, 2012 at 2:20 PM

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