Abortion, autonomy, and the Congressional Black Caucus

posted at 12:01 pm on May 18, 2012 by Dustin Siggins

Earlier this month I was published on Crisis Magazine’s website. My post, which looked at some tactical maneuvers the pro-life movement could consider in convincing Americans to join our cause, drew a wide variety of reactions. One of the more critical responses came from pro-life leader Jill Stanek. I e-mailed Jill about her critiques, and over the next two days we engaged in a…lively…discussion on how to best protect the unborn.

When Ed asked me to contribute today, I contacted Jill about updating Hot Air’s readers on the D.C. fetal pain bill going through the House of Representatives and other important goings-on in the pro-life movement. As timing would have it, Jill was finishing this post (published this morning) on how the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) and the Congressional Pro-Choice Caucus (CPCC) held a joint conference on May 10 to discuss “African Americans’ Attitudes on Abortion, Contraception, and Reproductive Justice,” and she was eager to discuss it. Our conversation is below.

 

Dustin Siggins (DS): How did you hear about the CBC conference? Why was it held?

Jill Stanek (JS): On May 10 the CBC and CPCC held a co-briefing on inroads made in the black community. Four pro-lifers attended, including Day Gardner, President of the National Black Pro-Life Union. They found out all sorts of inside baseball. The primary concern of attendees turned out to be the series of billboards making waves since 2009. The bulk of the briefing focused on this, and the other focus was use of the word “genocide” when it comes to black babies being aborted. However, this is accurate, since it’s been used by white supremacists since slavery ended. Additionally, 38% of aborted babies are black, but only 12.3% of the nation is black.

The bottom line coming out of this briefing was the knowledge that the billboards are having an impact. A dossier of pro-life billboard leaders was handed out, and the stated goal was to shut down billboards as soon as they pop up. The people at the meeting were also concerned that black Americans don’t like the idea of “convenience” abortions, and so they wanted the discussion to focus on autonomy instead of babies. For obvious and understandable reasons the black community prioritizes autonomy over almost all else, and they wanted to take advantage of this. According to one of my sources at the meeting, explaining why the CBC and CPCC leaders were so concerned: “To them the freedom to live comes second to the freedom to choose.”

I have many more important details at the post.

DS: Obviously, this relates to PRENDA, the pro-life legislation in Congress that would make sex and race-selective abortions illegal. Does this meeting show that PRENDA is more important than one might initially think?

JS: How can you oppose a bill that bans babies in your community from being targeted for abortion because of their race? You can oppose that? Liberals say this isn’t happening, of course, and that the bill has been proposed to attack President Obama. But again, decreasing the black population has been a goal of white supremacists and others for generations.

Is our concern about sex-selective valid? Yes. According to studies of Chinese, Filipino and Korean immigrants coming to America, they bring with them the cultures they left. These cultures don’t value women as much as men – for example, the Chinese one-child policy that has resulted in a huge deficit of women in China – and is one reason for Asian sex slavery pandemic, as an aside. Women become commodities.

DS: The fetal pain bill introduced by Rep. Franks (R-AZ) is still making waves. What exactly does it do, and why are liberals so opposed to it?

JS: It says any baby who is 20 weeks gestational age or older cannot be aborted for any reason except to save the life of the mother. There is no health exception.  This law has been put into place in six states, and no abortion organization has filed a lawsuit claiming it to be unconstitutional because they are afraid they would lose at the Supreme Court.

Babies at 20 weeks feel pain, and probably before this. This is a losing issue for abortion proponents. How can you oppose protecting babies who are far along from pain?

Why is it coming through Congress now? D.C. has gutted all abortion restrictions in recent years and currently allows abortions at any time for any reason until birth (only five countries in the world have similarly abortion-friendly laws, including China, North Korea and Vietnam), and so this is in response to that, via Congress’ constitutional authority and responsibility.

DS: Let’s switch to a purely political issue for a moment – the War on Women doesn’t seem to be working for Democrats. In April a PEW Research poll said that the American people rank contraception number 17 out of 18 issues, and just this week Mitt Romney beat President Obama among women in a head-to-head poll after Obama lost ground with women in March. What are the implications of this?

JS: This is the second titanic movement against liberalism since Obama took office. The first was the TEA Party in 2010, and the second is this women shift away from him. The “Julia” ad isn’t working, the contraceptive mandate isn’t pulling women towards him…while not every woman is as pro-life or actively involved in the movement as I am, they clearly care more about their families and the economy than free abortions or contraceptives.

DS: So given this titanic shift, should conservatives and Republicans focus more on the economy than abortion and religious freedom until November, since we can push better legislation on those issues in the next Congress with a GOP Senate and White House?

JS: No. We need to be able to push forward on economic and life issues at the same time. In the minds of the people the economy is more important, but – for example – the D.C. pain bill can be used to show how wrong the pro-abortion movement is without alienating the American people.

Remember, too, the pro-life movement has economic components. For instance, the investigation into Planned Parenthood would expose the underbelly of the nation’s largest abortion provider  and the push to defund it bridges the two issues because it would prevent taxpayer subsidization of elective abortions. Remember, too, that from a purely economic standpoint Social Security and Medicare would be in much better shape if we had even half of the 50 million-plus aborted babies in the work force, paying taxes, etc.


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So vote for JugEars!

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:02 PM

C B C…RACISTS!

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:03 PM

What does the Congressional White Caucus have to say?

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:04 PM

What about the Hispanic White Caucus?

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:04 PM

The European Caucus?

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:05 PM

Can we get the image a little bigger?

Chuck Schick on May 18, 2012 at 12:05 PM

The Congressional Asian Caucus?

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Reproductive Justice

Seems to me that all one has to do is stick the word “justice” at the end of something and that automatically brands anyone opposed to it as a racist-sexist-bigot-homophobe-nazi.

CurtZHP on May 18, 2012 at 12:08 PM

…it’s the ECONOMY stupid…!!!
.
.
.the other shinny issues can wait!

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:10 PM

Planned Parenthood has killed more blacks than that other branch of the Democrat party, the KKK, by orders of magnitude.

Rixon on May 18, 2012 at 12:12 PM

…my gawd she’s cute!!!
…JugEars would let her be cut to pieces if she survived a late term abortion!

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM

The Scot-Irish Caucus is out getting drinks, but I’m sure we would be unanimous in saying that everything else is crap!

LoganSix on May 18, 2012 at 12:13 PM

Babies at 20 weeks feel pain, and probably before this. This is a losing issue for abortion proponents. How can you oppose protecting babies who are far along from pain?

Even acknowledging the possibility of pain to the baby is dangerous for the pro-abortion movement. If people think of unborn children as people, they might start getting silly ideas like “abortion is murder” into their heads.

RINO in Name Only on May 18, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Why is it that we have suicide hotlines that do everything in their power to get the person help but when it comes to abortion we have supercenters that process women like factory goods down a conveyor belt to destroy the baby inside them? Can you imagine going into a suicide clinic where they put a loaded gun in your hand and wheel your body out to the biohazard bin out back to make room for the next ‘patient’?

StompUDead on May 18, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Seems to me that all one has to do is stick the word “justice” at the end of something and that automatically brands anyone opposed to it as a racist-sexist-bigot-homophobe-nazi.

CurtZHP on May 18, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Cool. I’m starting a movement for alcohol justice followed closely by a push for ammunition justice. I may want to rethink the order though.

Lost in Jersey on May 18, 2012 at 12:18 PM

What about the 1/32 Cherokee caucus?

repvoter on May 18, 2012 at 12:24 PM

What about the 1/32 Cherokee caucus?

repvoter on May 18, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Lizzie is 99 44/100% pure fool.

Rixon on May 18, 2012 at 12:28 PM

There is little more enraging than when conservatives pretend to care about racial justice issues. And this abortion fight is the worst example of this intellectual dishonesty. Abortion no more “targets” African American women than it “targets” poor women in general. That the rate of African American abortion is double than our percentage in the population should surprise no one since the poverty rate within African American population is twice the rate of the surrounding communities. None of these pro-life groups are able to offer one single shred of support to the impoverished women whose abortion rights they seek to curtail and strip away. Indeed in order to make any kind of economic argument the intellectually dishonest author of this post had to say “we need black babies to support Social Security and Medicare,” HA! A disgusting joke considering that lower black life expectancy (and lower life expectancy of the poor in general) means that black workers are much less likely to benefit from these programs. More black babies to labor so that older whites can benefit from social security and medicare? Awesome! Who is targeting whom again?

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

Must gall you that we care more about black children than you do.

CurtZHP on May 18, 2012 at 12:32 PM

Abortion no more “targets” African American women than it “targets” poor women in general.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

You could be right, who knows? What I do know is that abortion targets 100% of its unborn victims for death. Your thoughts?

Trafalgar on May 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM

CBC……….Slaves to their Progressive Master.

Before they could enter the Plantation of Political Power they had to stop at the bottom of the stairs and cover themselves with the blood of the unborn. Once they did that and showed the Master they were willing to sell their soul in sacrifice for power they were allowed in (but just to the foyer of the house, not any of the rooms unless you can do more).

Lost souls in the CBC. Lost lives and promise in their communities they are helping to destroy.

Margaret Sanger would be proud.

PappyD61 on May 18, 2012 at 12:38 PM

You could be right, who knows? What I do know is that abortion targets 100% of its unborn victims for death. Your thoughts?

Trafalgar on May 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM

I know that the NYPD targets living African American men for crimes they have not committed. Conservatism is silent.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Who is targeting whom again?

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

I’ll speak sloooowwwwwwwly. The racist…..(pause for it to soak in)….Democrats……(soaking)….. are all for killing black babies…..(yeah, soak it in you nutball)…. at a rate that keeps them in the perpetual minority. Do you understand the words that are coming our of my mouth, or should I speak in moron?

StompUDead on May 18, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Must gall you that we care more about black children than you do.

CurtZHP on May 18, 2012 at 12:32 PM

Until the moment of their actual birth. Then you begin trying to find ways to strip funds for early childhood education programs they utilize, and barely wait for them to hit puberty before you demand that they be tried as adults. No one believes you care about black children.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM

Babies are alive too.

Conservatives like myself don’t want anyone targeted unjustly. That answers your question now answer

What I do know is that abortion targets 100% of its unborn victims for death. Your thoughts?

Trafalgar on May 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM

StompUDead on May 18, 2012 at 12:44 PM

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

Wow the projection in your post is strong.

1. The founder of planned Parent Hood was totally committed to eugenics with a focus to removing the black race form society. This fact is undeniable.

2. Planned Parent hood does just that providing for more abortions among blacks than any other race.

3. Abortion is not an answer to poverty. Those impoverished who have an abortion remain so.

4. Coming from a family of 7, and my Mother from a family of 8 and my Father from a family of 22! I can assure you poverty does not require a family to get an abortion. Both my parents are 1 st gen Americans who’s family were laborers only. I myself stood in food lines and worked from the age of 14 up to help the family survive. NONE of those family’s ever considered abortion an option.

5.

More black babies to labor so that older whites can benefit from social security and medicare?

Seriously? you are mentally disturbed to believe this. I challenge you to show me how I am personally befitting from “black babies” working to provide anyone let alone whites only medicare. If anything I should be complaining becuase I pay the maximum every year for SS/Medicare and will never see a dime of it when I retire.

Why should I sweat 40 years of my life so social loafers who paid NOTHING into the system can collect SS and medicare?

Skwor on May 18, 2012 at 12:44 PM

No one believes you care about black children

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM

No one thinks you care about them either. You’re more interested in making excuses for people and continuing the class and race divisions in this country purely to maintain power.

StompUDead on May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM

The racist…..(pause for it to soak in)….Democrats……(soaking)….. are all for killing black babies…..(yeah, soak it in you nutball)…. at a rate that keeps them in the perpetual minority.

Your premise is insane. But beyond that, I think its telling that the GOP is incredibly interested in maximizing the black working population, while doing everything possible to strip as many black people as possible from full citizenship rights. Whether it be through voter ID laws that impact African Americans more than others. Whether it be through constantly raising the Social Security and medicare ages when its clear that blacks have a lower life expectancy than whites, or through destroying the citizen rights of felons, even those guilty of non-violent offenses. Yeah you all are the anti-racist ones.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM

African culture has a rich, deeply rooted historical tradition of child sacrifice. How dare you pro-life Bible-thumping rubes to show disrespect to the rule of diversity and multiculturalism in Sodom Gomorrah America!

Archivarix on May 18, 2012 at 12:47 PM

Black Genocide Org.

“The most dangerous place for an African American is in the womb” Pastor Clenard, Childress Jr.

Dr Evil on May 18, 2012 at 12:47 PM

Your premise is insane. But beyond that, I think its telling that the GOP is incredibly interested in maximizing the black working population, while doing everything possible to strip as many black people as possible from full citizenship rights. Whether it be through voter ID laws that impact African Americans more than others. Whether it be through constantly raising the Social Security and medicare ages when its clear that blacks have a lower life expectancy than whites, or through destroying the citizen rights of felons, even those guilty of non-violent offenses. Yeah you all are the anti-racist ones.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM

All innuendo and accusations, unsubstantiated by facts. DO you have anything to add that is even close to reality based?

Skwor on May 18, 2012 at 12:48 PM

1. The founder of planned Parent Hood was totally committed to eugenics with a focus to removing the black race form society. This fact is undeniable.

The founders of this nation (whom you worship) believed black people were 3/5 of a person, wrote the dehumanization of black people into the founding documents and owed their fortunes to the labor provided by black slaves. Yet you don’t seem to be rejecting the notion of liberal democracy despite the importance of slavery to its founding. Why should I reject reproductive freedom because Planned Parenthood’s founder was a eugenicist? Along with, I might add, nearly every major intellectual from the turn of the century until World War II.

2. Planned Parent hood does just that providing for more abortions among blacks than any other race.

Again, the abortion rate is tied to poverty much more closely than it is tied to race. Shouldn’t your concern be understanding why poverty rates are higher in black communities? Oh right, i forgot you don’t actually care about black people, just about using them for your anti-abortion agenda. Got it.

3. Abortion is not an answer to poverty. Those impoverished who have an abortion remain so.

No one said that it was. However, an unwanted child is a much larger burden on a poor woman than on a middle class or wealthy one. Why do you claim the right to decide when a woman has a baby if you are not going to claim any responsibility for that child. Spiderman’s rule really is the best advice on this one.

ortion is not an answer to poverty. Those impoverished who have an abortion remain so.

4. Coming from a family of 7, and my Mother from a family of 8 and my Father from a family of 22! I can assure you poverty does not require a family to get an abortion. Both my parents are 1 st gen Americans who’s family were laborers only. I myself stood in food lines and worked from the age of 14 up to help the family survive. NONE of those family’s ever considered abortion an option.

Oh I’m sorry. I didn’t realize we lived in a nation where the boundaries of the law should be determined by the choices made in your individual family. I thought it was America.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:52 PM

Until the moment of their actual birth. Then you begin trying to find ways to strip funds for early childhood education programs they utilize, and barely wait for them to hit puberty before you demand that they be tried as adults. No one believes you care about black children.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM

Sorry, but who was it who pulled the plug on school choice in inner city Washington DC, despite the overwhelming support for it by black families? I’ll give you a hint. He was in office for less than a year, and he eats dog.

CurtZHP on May 18, 2012 at 12:52 PM

Your premise is insane. But beyond that, I think its telling that the GOP is incredibly interested in maximizing the black working population, while doing everything possible to strip as many black people as possible from full citizenship rights. Whether it be through voter ID laws that impact African Americans more than others. Whether it be through constantly raising the Social Security and medicare ages when its clear that blacks have a lower life expectancy than whites, or through destroying the citizen rights of felons, even those guilty of non-violent offenses. Yeah you all are the anti-racist ones.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM

in other words, not pandering is racist.

Quisp on May 18, 2012 at 12:55 PM

or through destroying the citizen rights of felons, even those guilty of non-violent offenses.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM

Trolls being trolls, I cannot argue with this one. The statist disaster otherwise known as “war on drugs” is catching up with abortion clinics when it comes to destroying African-American lives.

Archivarix on May 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM

Trolls being trolls, I cannot argue with this one. The statist disaster otherwise known as “war on drugs” is catching up with abortion clinics when it comes to destroying African-American lives.

Archivarix on May 18, 2012 at 12:56 PM

Wow, intellectual honesty. I suspect it shall be rare on this thread.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:00 PM

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM

Tell me more of how the Black community is exempt from personal responsibility, and personal accountability while living in a free country.

Dr Evil on May 18, 2012 at 1:01 PM

Your premise is insane.

How so? The dems want blacks on the tit of government and to never rise to positions of power. We see this in the way they try and buy the black vote year after year through your hailed social programs. Never are blacks tought to thrive, only survive (with the gov’s assistance of course)

But beyond that, I think its telling that the GOP is incredibly interested in maximizing the black working population, while doing everything possible to strip as many black people as possible from full citizenship rights.

BS. What the GOP is interested in is for people to have the opportunity to succeed, to actually succeed, and to enjoy the fruits of that success. The dems on the other hand have had nothing but disdain and continued misery for blacks and the rest of the country. It’s the only way they can usher in their marxist utopia. People don’t want massive change when they’re successful and their children are fed and happy.

Whether it be through voter ID laws that impact African Americans more than others.

BS. Voter ID laws actually prevent the black vote from getting diluted by cheaters and dead people. wake up.

Whether it be through constantly raising the Social Security and medicare ages when its clear that blacks have a lower life expectancy than whites,

That’s more a product of the ever worsening fiscal situation than any secret society of racists hell bent on the destruction of the black man.

or through destroying the citizen rights of felons, even those guilty of non-violent offenses.

1st Who is committing the crimes? Are there punishments for crimes committed? It’s simple mathematics… Do “A” + Conviction for doing “A” = Loss of voting rights. Are you arguing that blacks should be held to a different standard than everyone else because they’re incapable of staying on the good side of the law? Racist.

2nd I personally agree that once you’ve repaid your debt to society you should be able to vote once again. What are you doing to change those laws? Can inaction be racist? If so I plead guilty.

Yeah you all are the anti-racist ones.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:46 PM

I’m glad we agree on this last point.

StompUDead on May 18, 2012 at 1:03 PM

Wow, intellectual honesty. I suspect it shall be rare on this thread.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:00 PM

There was plenty before you showed up. The only reason you did is because your precious liberal sacrament (abortion) is under attack. “Black babies be damned! The fort must be defended at all costs!”

CurtZHP on May 18, 2012 at 1:03 PM

in other words, not pandering is racist.

Quisp on May 18, 2012 at 12:55 PM

Yes boo boo, you got it. Now don’t hurt yourself trying to talk with the grown folks k?

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:03 PM

Until the moment of their actual birth. Then you begin trying to find ways to strip funds for early childhood education programs they utilize, and barely wait for them to hit puberty before you demand that they be tried as adults. No one believes you care about black children.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM

What does not caring about your stupid liberal programs have to do with whether we care about kids or not?

And what does trying criminals as adults have to do with anything? Even with higher crime rates, you still have many more black children not committing crimes (and certainly not committing crimes that get you tried by an adult).

The people who commit crimes that get you tried as an adult are responsible for more misery in the black community than the most racist Rethuglican from your fevered imagination. Just who do you think these teenage hoodlums are terrorizing, primarily?

RINO in Name Only on May 18, 2012 at 1:03 PM

1st Who is committing the crimes?

Nearly everyone.

Are there punishments for crimes committed?

Indeed, and black people are punished for drug crimes at a rate that is disproportionate with their rate of drug use and distribution.

It’s simple mathematics…

I (and a number of other people have) that’s the problem.

Do “A” + Conviction for doing “A” = Loss of voting rights. Are you arguing that blacks should be held to a different standard than everyone else because they’re incapable of staying on the good side of the law? Racist.

No, I’m arguing that our criminal justice system is organized to punish black people for drug crimes while funneling whites into “treatment” and misdemeanor charges. Renew your library card, check out Michelle Alexander’s book The New Jim Crow. All the data is there for anyone whose interested in reading it. If thats too long for you, I suggest “Dorm Rule Dealers” which exposes the way the Criminal Injustice System consistently lessens penalties for white, middle class drug offenders. But, again, if you actually cared about the root causes of poverty in black communities you would know all of these things. But you don’t. You only care about using images of black babies in your anti-abortion campaign. No one is fooled.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:09 PM

What about the 1/32 Cherokee caucus?

repvoter on May 18, 2012 at 12:24 PM

…sorry!…I was going to mention them…and spokessqauw Dizzy Lizzy Warren.

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 1:12 PM

You only care about using images of black babies in your anti-abortion campaign. No one is fooled. libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:09 PM

When I look at the photo above I see a human being – you see a black baby. That’s what you don’t get.

Dr Evil on May 18, 2012 at 1:15 PM

But, again, if you actually cared about root causes of poverty in black communities you would know all of these things.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:09 PM

It would seem that the root cause for poverty in black communities is white liberals and race hustlers continually telling blacks that they are worthless and need lower test scores, government assistance and protection against generally anything that might give them a whiff of personal responsibility and self respect.

LoganSix on May 18, 2012 at 1:15 PM

What libs have done to women is truly tragic. That anyone should support “the right to kill a baby” shows the debth to which we have sunk as a society. No matter the circumstance (or race), abortion stops a beating heart.

StevC on May 18, 2012 at 1:19 PM

It would seem that the root cause for poverty in black communities is white liberals and race hustlers continually telling blacks that they are worthless and need lower test scores, government assistance and protection against generally anything that might give them a whiff of personal responsibility and self respect.

LoganSix on May 18, 2012 at 1:15 PM

And when, exactly, have liberals and civil rights leaders told black people they are “worthless?” You have no evidence of that claim. The argument is that “test scores” aren’t a real measure of education. All you have to do is look at the way students in wealthy districts are not taught to the test, they are merely educated. If an obsessoin with standardized tests was the key to a quality education, why does it only occur within impoverished schools?

As for government assistance, there’s nothing shameful about government assistance. The people who claim that welfare recipients are worthless are conservatives, which is ironic since there are very few Americans who can claim to never have received government assistance in one form or another.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:21 PM

No matter the circumstance (or race), abortion stops a beating heart.

StevC on May 18, 2012 at 1:19 PM

Not to imply a position here, but would you be okay with an abortion before heartbeat is established?

Archivarix on May 18, 2012 at 1:23 PM

When I look at the photo above I see a human being – you see a black baby. That’s what you don’t get.

Dr Evil on May 18, 2012 at 1:15 PM

Are you suggesting that seeing a black baby is not the same thing as seeing a human?

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:23 PM

Wow! The Demoncrat party has more problems than I realized. They’ve run out of ideas, insults, and competent trolls.

Laura in Maryland on May 18, 2012 at 1:23 PM

DS: Obviously, this relates to PRENDA, the pro-life legislation in Congress that would make sex and race-selective abortions illegal. Does this meeting show that PRENDA is more important than one might initially think?

This is interesting legislation. I hadn’t heard of this, but I’d be curious to hear a pro-choice perspective on it. By my understanding, a consistent pro-choicer would oppose this sort of restriction because issues like {potential} sex and {potential} race are categorically nonsensical because the “thing” being eliminated is only a glob of cells. And besides, even if those identifiers are meaningful, the “glob” is still a possession of the mother…er…woman, and so she’s free to dispose of it for whatever reason…or is it more nuanced than that?

BlueCollarAstronaut on May 18, 2012 at 1:25 PM

It isn’t “assistance” when it is cradle-to-grave support.

Laura in Maryland on May 18, 2012 at 1:25 PM

The founders of this nation (whom you worship) believed black people were 3/5 of a person, wrote the dehumanization of black people into the founding documents and owed their fortunes to the labor provided by black slaves. Yet you don’t seem to be rejecting the notion of liberal democracy despite the importance of slavery to its founding. Why should I reject reproductive freedom because Planned Parenthood’s founder was a eugenicist? Along with, I might add, nearly every major intellectual from the turn of the century until World War II.

Last I checked Slavery was illegal and Blacks are full citizens with full rights. What century / decade do you live in again? Also WHO was it exactly that fought for an end to slavery and began civil rights movements (hint the party name began with an R). Try reading the 13th amendment and it’s history.

Again, the abortion rate is tied to poverty much more closely than it is tied to race. Shouldn’t your concern be understanding why poverty rates are higher in black communities? Oh right, i forgot you don’t actually care about black people, just about using them for your anti-abortion agenda. Got it.

Total misrepresentation of the data. Abortion is advertised most and promoted the most among the poor by the very organization founded to decrease the black population. That is why abortion rates are higher and this fact makes it a very evil thing indeed.

No one said that it was. However, an unwanted child is a much larger burden on a poor woman than on a middle class or wealthy one. Why do you claim the right to decide when a woman has a baby if you are not going to claim any responsibility for that child. Spiderman’s rule really is the best advice on this one.

There is no such thing as an unwanted child. There is however extreme government obstacles to adoption that strongly discourage adoptions.

Oh I’m sorry. I didn’t realize we lived in a nation where the boundaries of the law should be determined by the choices made in your individual family. I thought it was America.

Murder is not a choice it is murder, we are ideologically at opposite ends which will not be resolved. What you call convenience and choice I call murder, unfortunately for you morality and sceince happen to fall on my side in this instance. Look up the definition of when life begins.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:52 PM

Why do you hate babies so much?

Skwor on May 18, 2012 at 1:26 PM

But, again, if you actually cared about the root causes of poverty in black communities you would know all of these things. But you don’t. You only care about using images of black babies in your anti-abortion campaign. No one is fooled.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:09 PM

The root CAUSE of poverty is the individual. Can’t find a job? Move. Like I did. Don’t want to get caught up in drug culture and gang violence? Move. Like I did. Don’t like getting lumped in with all the bad apples? Move. Like I did. Don’t have enough money to move? Find the government program that applies to you.
http://www.cfda.gov
http://www.grants.gov
http://gtionline.fdncenter.org
http://www.powerhomebiz.com/vol66/grants…
http://www.sba.gov/expanding/grants.html

Poverty is a condition that most people wallow in so they have a reason to piss and moan about their victimhood. There are no victims in my opinion, just doers and non doers. If poor neighborhoods spent more time correcting their condition instead of crying about it poverty would be a rarity.

Besides murdering babies to get out of poverty is like having sex with a zebra because you’re hungry.

You may not be fooled but you are a fool.

StompUDead on May 18, 2012 at 1:31 PM

A disgusting joke considering that lower black life expectancy (and lower life expectancy of the poor in general) means that black workers are much less likely to benefit from these programs.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM

Disgusting that the government makes them pay into Social Security knowing that they won’t benefit from it.

Disgusting that Liberal Democrats won’t even consider letting them put their SS money in private retirement accounts so they could at least pass their accumulated wealth along to their children and grandchildren (if allowed by Liberal Democrats to be born, that is.)

Disgusting, indeed.

Fallon on May 18, 2012 at 1:33 PM

I believe Fetal Pain laws need to factor in babies whom are determined to be non-viable. I don’t believe a mother should be forced to carry a child to term, knowing that this child will experience a painful death shortly after birth. That child is going to suffer no matter what, and I don’t see a need to extend that suffering, not only for the child, but for the mother as well.

Violina23 on May 18, 2012 at 1:36 PM

Last I checked Slavery was illegal and Blacks are full citizens with full rights. What century / decade do you live in again? Also WHO was it exactly that fought for an end to slavery and began civil rights movements (hint the party name began with an R). Try reading the 13th amendment and it’s history.

So we should alter our judgements of the Constitution because, as times changed, its horribly racist foundings were changed? But we shouldn’t use the same powers of discernment to distinguish between Margaret Sanger and the present-day Planned Parenthood?

Total misrepresentation of the data. Abortion is advertised most and promoted the most among the poor by the very organization founded to decrease the black population. That is why abortion rates are higher and this fact makes it a very evil thing indeed.

So…you agree that poverty is more important than race in terms of the abortion issue? Glad we agree.

There is no such thing as an unwanted child.

Then why have women across time and across the world always procured means to terminate unwanted pregnancies. Indeed, women in rural communities in the past were aware of the herbs that would induce miscarriage during an unwanted pregnancy. Its *always* been part of our society. To claim it is an invention for black genocide represents a POWERFUL lack of historical knowledge.

Check out some of the following literature
Riddle, John M. (1992). Contraception and abortion from the ancient world to the Renaissance. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.

London, Kathleen (1982). “The History of Birth Control” in The Changing American Family: Historical and Comparative Perspectives. Yale University.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:37 PM

Anyone who values personal freedom should find this kind of strategizing utterly abhorrent. Fascists, acting under the guise of “conservatism”, actively working to take rights away from American citizens, and willing to use any and all means to do so.

Armin Tamzarian on May 18, 2012 at 1:46 PM

Armin Tamzarian on May 18, 2012 at 1:46 PM

…like ObamaCare?

KOOLAID2 on May 18, 2012 at 1:51 PM

Wow! The Demoncrat party has more problems than I realized. They’ve run out of ideas, insults, and competent trolls.

Laura in Maryland on May 18, 2012 at 1:23 PM

Yet they own these threads. How does that work?

slickwillie2001 on May 18, 2012 at 1:53 PM

No one believes you care about black children

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM

.
No, the “pro-socialized-government” crowd back in 1968 hijacked the Civil Rights movement and redefined it.

Since then, anyone who opposes “Socialized Government” in any form is branded a racist, bigot, and a homophobe.

It is this that has made it possible for leftists like yourself to FALSELY accuse conservatives for 40+ years now of hating everyone, except heterosexual “cracker” males.

Well, I reject, renounce, and defy your statement/premise that there is ANY predisposition on the part of political conservatives to hate anyone. Period.

Rejection of the use of government as a “charity” does not constitute, or even imply hate.

listens2glenn on May 18, 2012 at 1:54 PM

When I look at the photo above I see a human being – you see a black baby. That’s what you don’t get.

Dr Evil on May 18, 2012 at 1:15 PM

Are you suggesting that seeing a black baby is not the same thing as seeing a human?

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:23 PM

You

You only care about using images of black babies in your anti-abortion campaign. No one is fooled. libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:09 PM

That’s your description, you don’t refer to the person in the photo as a human being. You accuse others who don’t want any human beings to be aborted of using “images of black babies”. What images do you suggest should be used by people who advocate humans not be killed in the womb? puppies and kittens?

Dr Evil on May 18, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Anybody have the figures on how many black babies have been aborted over the last 40 years? Compare that figure with the number of white racist killings over the same period. I’ll bet the figures are, well, dissimilar.

Black Body Count 1973-2012
KKK:
Planned Parenthood:

Fill in the blanks.

spiritof61 on May 18, 2012 at 2:14 PM

So we should alter our judgements of the Constitution because, as times changed, its horribly racist foundings were changed? But we shouldn’t use the same powers of discernment to distinguish between Margaret Sanger and the present-day Planned Parenthood?

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:37 PM

.
You’re not going to get away with making a sorry(expletive) implication like that.

It seems apparent you hate the founding of this country. And the only way you can justify your hate is to falsely define the country as having been founded on and by evil. I’d say you (and all other like-minded Americans) are more unworthy of your citizenship here than Eduardo Saverin.

Really.

listens2glenn on May 18, 2012 at 2:18 PM

Check out some of the following literature
Riddle, John M. (1992). Contraception and abortion from the ancient world to the Renaissance. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.

London, Kathleen (1982). “The History of Birth Control” in The Changing American Family: Historical and Comparative Perspectives. Yale University.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:37 PM

.
No one’s claiming abortion was invented in this country to get rid of the Black population.
But Planned Parenthood was created as a government institution to purport genocide on non-Caucasians in the U.S..

listens2glenn on May 18, 2012 at 2:26 PM

actively working to take rights away from American citizens, and willing to use any and all means to do so.

Because killing babies is a personal right.

JFKY on May 18, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood (and Kathleen Sebelius, and Barack Obama) hold the same belief–that babies should be liquidated if they are unwanted. This is called Choice.

Who makes the Choice is, from the point of view of the subject of the exercise, not especially relevant. The result will be the same whether the baby is black, white, yellow, or 1/32 Cherokee. Those blacks who do have the good fortune to be wanted and make it out of their mothers’ wombs alive will nevertheless be voting for pro-abortion Democrats until they die. This is called Irony.

spiritof61 on May 18, 2012 at 2:36 PM

Even acknowledging the possibility of pain to the baby is dangerous for the pro-abortion movement. If people think of unborn children as people, they might start getting silly ideas like “abortion is murder” into their heads.

RINO in Name Only on May 18, 2012 at 12:16 PM

I’m sure the pro-life will continue to claim that 20 week old fetuses feel pain, but why stop there? Since the pro-life movement like to make stuff up so much, why not claim a fertilized eggs feels pain if it’s not successfully implanted? Just imagine all the birth control you could claim causes pain and murder!

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 3:44 PM

But Planned Parenthood was created as a government institution to purport genocide on non-Caucasians in the U.S..

listens2glenn on May 18, 2012 at 2:26 PM

Maybe you should learn even the most facts about topic before writing about it. Just a suggestion. Planned Parenthood was started by Margaret Sanger despite the effort of the government to stop her. And taking a couple of statements that Margaret Sanger said at a KKK meeting when the KKK was political strong and claiming on that she wanted to commit genocide is no more intellectually honest than saying Jesus was a psychopath because of what he said in Matthew 10:34-36.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 3:52 PM

I’m sure the pro-life will continue to claim that 20 week old fetuses feel pain, but why stop there? Since the pro-life movement like to make stuff up so much, why not claim a fertilized eggs feels pain if it’s not successfully implanted? Just imagine all the birth control you could claim causes pain and murder!

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 3:44 PM

Good point. When I asked a newborn if it hurt when I pinched him, he didn’t say “yes,” so why do we continue to buy into this myth that babies are people?

BlueCollarAstronaut on May 18, 2012 at 3:56 PM

But, again, if you actually cared about the root causes of poverty in black communities you would know all of these things. But you don’t. You only care about using images of black babies in your anti-abortion campaign. No one is fooled.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:09 PM

Would you please stop with the Republicans are racist BS. If this were debate before a general audience it would be ok, since the charge of the pro-choice position being a genocidal plot against blacks is 9/11 Truth crazy. Fight crazy with crazy. But most readers here are right-wing. It’s probably more worth your time to point out that the idea Obama is trying to commit the genocide of blacks by supporting the right to an abortion is so utterly lunatic that you can’t even imagine that the people making the charge believe it.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 3:59 PM

Good point. When I asked a newborn if it hurt when I pinched him, he didn’t say “yes,” so why do we continue to buy into this myth that babies are people?

BlueCollarAstronaut on May 18, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Thanks for saying “good point”, but honestly your point is pretty stupid. Normal newborns are quite capable of indicating they are in pain.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 4:08 PM

Thanks for saying “good point”, but honestly your point is pretty stupid. Normal newborns are quite capable of indicating they are in pain.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 4:08 PM

That sort of gives them an unfair advantage, then doesn’t it.

BlueCollarAstronaut on May 18, 2012 at 4:18 PM

That sort of gives them an unfair advantage, then doesn’t it.

BlueCollarAstronaut on May 18, 2012 at 4:18 PM

Well, at least, that is witty.

By the way, I hope you understood that I didn’t mean to say you were stupid. I just meant the point you were making wasn’t particular relevant or interesting. We all say stupid things.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 4:42 PM

We all say stupid things.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 4:42 PM

+100

spiritof61 on May 18, 2012 at 4:59 PM

Well, at least, that is witty.

By the way, I hope you understood that I didn’t mean to say you were stupid. I just meant the point you were making wasn’t particular relevant or interesting. We all say stupid things.

thuja on May 18, 2012 at 4:42 PM

I thought my point was an extension of your point, and you apparently found it interesting enough to comment on. If you have the authority to declare that 20-week old fetuses don’t feel pain because they haven’t satisfied whatever criteria you have for communicating that, then I should have the same authority to arbitrate a set of criteria for newborns. The fact that you feel newborns have the ability to clearly communicate their pain (suggesting fetuses to not have that ability) actually does give them an unfair advantage, I would think, since you seem to be basing your view on whether or not pain is being communicated.

If I encounter a newborn who is not able to clearly communicate pain to me, then would I have the right to keep pinching it? Can I kill it while I’m at it?

BlueCollarAstronaut on May 18, 2012 at 5:20 PM

I don’t know why conservatives are so anti-abortion.

Given the astronomically higher likelihood of abortion to be undergone by people who tend to vote Democrat, I’d say that the fact that abortion is legal is a bullet dodge of epic proportions when you consider our country’s excited rush to statism.

Then again, you might just really be that kind-hearted, to which I say “good on you.” Wanting to see those poor babies live, even if 95% of them would grow up to vote Democrat and continue their predecessors’ destructive voting habits, makes you a far better person than I.

Or equally self-destructive as them.

mintycrys on May 18, 2012 at 5:29 PM

As for government assistance, there’s nothing shameful about government assistance. The people who claim that welfare recipients are worthless are conservatives, which is ironic since there are very few Americans who can claim to never have received government assistance in one form or another.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 1:21 PM

No, there is everything shameful about taking a handout. You have failed in life and you resort to getting a handout from the government. And the liberals tell them it is okay. You tell them it isn’t their fault that they can’t make it in the world. You tell them it is “The Man” keeping them down. BS

If I am paying for it through my federal taxes (income, gas, postage), is isn’t assistance, it is a service. The only services I use are the Post Office, the courts (no directly), the highways and the military (not directly). I don’t think you understand the difference.

LoganSix on May 18, 2012 at 5:31 PM

1/2 of abortions are to 1/6 the population, African Americans, so how is that for “disparate impact?”

DANEgerus on May 18, 2012 at 6:03 PM

Trafalgar on May 18, 2012 at 12:34 PM

I know that the NYPD targets living African American men for crimes they have not committed. Conservatism is silent.

libfreeordie on May 18, 2012 at 12:42 PM

Are you f@cking serious? First, you assuage your fears that someone cares more about the children of your community than you do by inexplicably trying to link it with what you assert as racial profiling by LEOs? Then you go on to insinuate that our motives for supporting life are based on, (in your opinion) a contrary opinion that more Blacks being born actually means “more” productive workers. What do you really believe about us? That we think that you’re criminals or productive citizens? You know what, you’re such an idiot I don’t even want to know what you think.

You win, hands down, for offering the most obnoxious and hateful strawman point ever risen.

Know this. You’re pathetic. Your support of the abortion movement has cost us an entire generation of Black Americans that I’d sell my soul to get back.

hawkdriver on May 18, 2012 at 6:25 PM

LibFreeOfTruth:

You either know that the 3/5 compromise was come to so that the slave owning states would not also own the House of Representatives, and are lying about it, and therefore an outright liar (I vote for this interpretation).

OR, you are totally and completely lacking of any knowledge of the founding ot this country, and therefore an outright fool (umm, damn, I vote for this interpretation, too).

In any case, Jackhole, it has been the left side of the political spectrum that has done ALL within their power, from slavery, to secession to the KKK to Jim Crow to marginalize the black citizens of the US.

Even LBJ, after the passage of the ‘Great’ Society legislation, which has now destroyed 4 generations of black families, exulted (in private, of course) that ‘this will get the ni**ers to vote for us (the dems) for 100 years.

He knew exactly what would happen with this program, and probably even foresaw miserable fools such as yourself defending the vileness.

Siddhartha Vicious on May 18, 2012 at 8:11 PM