CNN contributors: If Rev. Wright is fair game, so is Mormonism’s racial history

posted at 5:39 pm on May 17, 2012 by Allahpundit

Via Mediaite. On the one hand, this probably was a consideration in Team Mitt’s mad dash this morning to distance themselves from the now-kaput Rev. Wright Super PAC ad. On the other hand, does anyone think the media’s going to let Romney’s faith pass unremarked upon if he’s three or four points up on O circa early October? Newsweek was willing to churn out this cover last year; imagine what they’ll do once real panic sets in.

John Ziegler has an interesting theory about today’s trial balloon:

Secondly, a proper attack on the Wright issue could provide a strong defense, or at least a deterrent, on the “Mormon issue” regarding Romney’s religion.

The media has already made it clear that they intend to make Romney’s religion a campaign topic, either overtly or covertly, whenever possible. By making Wright a major campaign subject this puts the media/Obama campaign in a rather tough spot. If they condemn the Wright attacks, then it makes it extremely difficult for them to “go Mormon.” If they don’t, then at least the issue is neutralized as very few undecided voters are going to view Romney’s Mormonism as more of a negative than Obama’s Wright connection. My gut tells me this is a good trade for the Romney forces. At worst, it is a wash.

In other words, Rev. Wright and Mormonism act as nuclear weapons in Romney’s and Obama’s respective arsenals. In theory, a launch would bring about mutually assured destruction. Would it really, though? Obama might sustain some damage but the issue is old news for many voters; if anything, it’d be a handy change of subject for him on the economy, especially with the media in full gasping-indignation mode on behalf of their guy. By contrast, depending upon how nasty and demagogic O’s surrogates are, attacking Mitt’s Mormonism could be a way to define him negatively for swaths of voters who are unfamiliar with him. As BuzzFeed points out, most Americans know next to nothing about LDS, which makes it a blank slate that might be used effectively by a sufficiently vicious/desperate campaign operative. If you’re going to rattle the campaign saber about Rev. Wright, do it because you think that’s an important issue, not because it might deter O’s boosters from dragging religion into this. Because it won’t.


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@RINO
@Capitalist Hog
@Del Dolemonte
@CW

Bad day ladies? Sounds like you are PMS’ing and needed to b!tch. Glad
I could help.. :) we are in this together!

Can.I.be.in.the.middle on May 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM

So, it’s fair game as in the same? Gee, I don’t recall Romney ever hiding, denying or renouncing his Mormonism.

stukinIL4now on May 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM

Is a picture of George Romney marching in a civil rights protest enough for you? Cause here it is:

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/urban-game-changer/2012/mar/13/mitt-romney-civil-rights-governor-george-romney/

Dark Star on May 17, 2012 at 6:23 PM

Thanks, BUT that isn’t an answer to my question.

The claim is that the Mormon Church tried to shut Romney down. Where is the proof?

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Hmmm…well women can’t be priests in the Catholic church. They couldn’t be rabbis here until 1972. Not sure what your point is. As for racism, we really don’t want to go there considering Rev. Wright’s close association with Louis Farrakhan.

Deanna on May 17, 2012 at 6:24 PM

Women still can’t hold the Priesthood in the LDS church. They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:25 PM

You mean black men could hold priesthood, that they had the same “rights” fully as the “white” guys?
Please, where was the misinformation…

during this period prior to 1978 black members could not hold the priesthood or participate in temple ordinances….http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Blacks

From BYU’s own website…

right2bright on May 17, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Rev Wright really doesn’t justify going back to historical data. If the Left really wants to open the racial history door there is a whole lot more than Rev Wright like black theology, black separatism, Nation of Islam, etc, etc, that could come into play.

katiejane on May 17, 2012 at 6:34 PM

I didn’t say it did. I was explaining why Mormons don’t want to be indebted to government or anybody else.

RBMN on May 17, 2012 at 6:30 PM

Understood and fully agreed.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 6:35 PM

Black men couldn’t hold the Priesthood (Every man gets the chance to hold this when they turn 18 years of age) until 1978.

That isn’t that long ago.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 5:51 PM

That is incorrect.

Elijah Able 1832 for instance.

1955 – Melanesian “Blacks” are Given Priesthood
Under the direction of David O. McKay, Melanesian blacks are defined as from a different linage and not under the priesthood ban. The first Figians receive the priesthood in 1958 while the Negritos of the Philippines were given it earlier. (Armand Mauss, Neither White nor Black, Signature Books, pg. 152)

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 6:36 PM

They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

One of the first and largest organizations of women in the world. Those !#$%@ chauvinist Mormons.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:36 PM

You mean black men could hold priesthood, that they had the same “rights” fully as the “white” guys?
Please, where was the misinformation…

during this period prior to 1978 black members could not hold the priesthood or participate in temple ordinances….http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Blacks

From BYU’s own website…

right2bright on May 17, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Like most things, it isn’t as simple as that.

BTW did you know this,
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amresolution.asp?id=899

1995?

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Thanks, BUT that isn’t an answer to my question.

The claim is that the Mormon Church tried to shut Romney down. Where is the proof?

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:32 PM

I must have misunderstood. You quoted & highlighted from crosspatch:

In fact, I would welcome CNN going down that particular road because George Romney, Mitt’s father, stood up to the Mormon Church. George Romney was a very outspoken proponent of civil rights.The Mormon church sent a delegation to see him to get him to “tone it down”. George Romney refused.

crosspatch on May 17, 2012 at 5:52 PM

You keep saying that. Do you have any proof?

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:20 PM

I read the highlighting of that part to mean you were questioning George Romney standing up to Mormon church on issue of civil rights.

Dark Star on May 17, 2012 at 6:39 PM

I’ll take a Mormon over a Black liberationist any day.

Mini-14 on May 17, 2012 at 6:40 PM

wouldn’t be the first time the Democrats used Mormonism against a candidate, they tried to use it against Goldwater, apparently his family was part of the group that left Utah for Mexico when poligmeny was outlawed in Utah.

RonK on May 17, 2012 at 6:41 PM

If the Left really wants to open the racial history door there is a whole lot more than Rev Wright like black theology, black separatism, Nation of Islam, etc, etc, that could come into play.

katiejane on May 17, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Yup. Find the most inflammatory thing ever uttered by a Mormon and it’s likely to pale in comparison to the words of BLT’s founder “If Jesus Christ is white and not black, he is an oppressor, and we must kill him”.

Kataklysmic on May 17, 2012 at 6:41 PM

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 5:51 PM

From the PDF I linked to earlier…

In 1954, President McKay is said to have appointed a special committee of the Twelve to study the issue. They concluded that the priesthood ban had no clear basis in scripture but that Church members were not prepared for change.25
In 1954, in an administrative decision, President McKay discontinued the practice in South Africa of requiring converts to trace all lines of their ancestry out of Africa as a way of establishing they had no Negroid forebears.26 Four years later, in 1958, he authorized Church leaders to ordain Fijian men to the priesthood based on his understanding that, despite their blackness, they were not related to Africans.27 In 1965, that principle of assuming a male convert qualified to receive the priesthood unless there was evidence to the contrary was applied specifically in Brazil and soon afterward applied generally.28

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 6:42 PM

I’ll take a Mormon over a Black liberationist any day.

Mini-14 on May 17, 2012 at 6:40 PM

I don’t want either one of them . . . you can have’em!
NOMITTNOBAMA 2012!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Yup. Find the most inflammatory thing ever uttered by a Mormon and it’s likely to pale in comparison to the words of BLT’s founder “If Jesus Christ is white and not black, he is an oppressor, and we must kill him”.

Kataklysmic on May 17, 2012 at 6:41 PM

In truth, Christ more than likely looks like modern Arabs/Jordanians…

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 6:44 PM

I must have misunderstood. You quoted & highlighted from crosspatch:

Dark Star on May 17, 2012 at 6:39 PM

That’s ok. He has made that claim several times. I would just like some proof.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:45 PM

So if Mormonism is a reason someone can’t be president, then I guess Harry Reid can’t be a Senator?

sandee on May 17, 2012 at 6:11 PM

oh oh!…Orin Hatch and a bunch of others are out too!

KOOLAID2 on May 17, 2012 at 6:45 PM

Women still can’t hold the Priesthood in the LDS church. They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

This betrays an immature understanding of the priesthood and its function in the LDS church.

Priesthood’s essential feature is that you are called upon to serve a group of people. Hierarchy has everything to do with being responsible for the well-being of a group of people. You do not get to boss them around.

You want to know what Mormons really believe in their heart of hearts? Read the following. It’s what you’ll get from Joseph Smith on the subject.

Here’s what you hear in any lesson on being a good priesthood holder:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Women and men carry different roles in full equality. Women don’t depend on a man to get through to God, and aren’t second-class citizens, any more than men are because they can’t bear children (which is considered far more important in LDS theology).

Cheers.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Who know what the truth really is?

Check this out: http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

“Lyin’ for the Lord” from Mormonwiki.com

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM

In truth, Christ more than likely looks like modern Arabs/Jordanians…

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 6:44 PM

I agree. However the sentiment that if he were white he would need to be murdered is fairly inflammatory.

Kataklysmic on May 17, 2012 at 6:47 PM

So if Mormonism is a reason someone can’t be president, then I guess Harry Reid can’t be a Senator?

sandee on May 17, 2012 at 6:11 PM
oh oh!…Orin Hatch and a bunch of others are out too!

KOOLAID2 on May 17, 2012 at 6:45 PM

Are Reid and Hatch ‘representative’ or are they ‘unique’? … very interesting indeed!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Where’s the Broadway Musical making fun of Rev. Wright’s church and Obama’s participation?

The Book Of GD America” would be a fun title.

profitsbeard on May 17, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Who know what the truth really is?

Check this out: http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

“Lyin’ for the Lord” from Mormonwiki.com

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Sorry BUT “mormonwiki.org” is controlled by EVANGELICALS!!!

Welcome to MormonWiki.org,
an evangelical encyclopedia of Mormonism.

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Main_Page

And we all know that about how truthful they are in describing Mormonism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/richard-mouw-evangelical-leader-says-engaging-mormonism-isnt-just-about-being-nice/2012/05/14/gIQA6wTMPU_story.html

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Duhhhh

mark my words: this is going to end up doing for Obama, what SSM support did for Romney….consolidate and motivate the base. Therefore net negative for Romney.

Can.I.be.in.the.middle on May 17, 2012 at 12:29 PM

Can.I.be.in.the.middle on May 17, 2012 at 5:46 PM

This is going to motivate the base? This? Anyone who cares about Mormonism enough to not vote for Romney made up their mind long ago.

If Obama is smart, he won’t use this, even as a distraction. It’s a great opportunity to let Mitt get up and do a speech about how all our churches had some bad racist people at various times, and all of them had good people who fought against racism as well. He can talk about the religious origins of the abolition movement.

He’ll point to some specific example about a bad Mormon who was racist, then point out that some other good Mormon opposed the bad racist Mormon. It will be a wonderful, moving story. It’ll help get independent minded, middle-of-the road non-partisan moderate centrists like yourself to think:
I guess at the end of the day, Mormons are just like you and me, and you know, I think I rather like the cut of this Romney fellow’s jib.

RINO in Name Only on May 17, 2012 at 6:51 PM

Women still can’t hold the Priesthood in the LDS church. They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Relief Society, Primary, & Young Women’s Organization

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Women still can’t hold the Priesthood in the LDS church. They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

This betrays an immature understanding of the priesthood and its function in the LDS church.

Priesthood’s essential feature is that you are called upon to serve a group of people. Hierarchy has everything to do with being responsible for the well-being of a group of people. You do not get to boss them around.

You want to know what Mormons really believe in their heart of hearts? Read the following. It’s what you’ll get from Joseph Smith on the subject.

Here’s what you hear in any lesson on being a good priesthood holder:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.


39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile

Women and men carry different roles in full equality. Women don’t depend on a man to get through to God, and aren’t second-class citizens, any more than men are because they can’t bear children (which is considered far more important in LDS theology).

Hope this doesn’t double-post — got a failure with my first try.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Religion ? Yes or No ?

The next shiny object.

FlaMurph on May 17, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Who know what the truth really is?

Check this out: http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

“Lyin’ for the Lord” from Mormonwiki.com

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM
Sorry BUT “mormonwiki.org” is controlled by EVANGELICALS!!!

Welcome to MormonWiki.org,
an evangelical encyclopedia of Mormonism.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Main_Page

And we all know that about how truthful they are in describing Mormonism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/richard-mouw-evangelical-leader-says-engaging-mormonism-isnt-just-about-being-nice/2012/05/14/gIQA6wTMPU_story.html

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:50 PM

What, pray tell, is wrong with EVANGELICALS?! (-:

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:53 PM

From a real “Mormon” source (not the false Evangelical one).

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_church_integrity/%22Lying_for_the_Lord%22

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:55 PM

Mormon have the most diverse Church in the world, and we don’t condemn the blacks in Africa who barely heard of Jesus.

Mormontheman on May 17, 2012 at 6:58 PM

Who know what the truth really is?

Check this out: http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

“Lyin’ for the Lord” from Mormonwiki.com

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM

By their fruits ye shall know them.

This “lying for the Lord” thing is pretty thin.

Will I discuss the least scripturally supported and most speculative doctrines in the whole of my theology with someone who doesn’t even have a framework to understand them? Not first thing.

If you ask me what I do for work, will I start by writing out the Higgs Mechanism Lagrangian? Not first thing.

You have no context or framework. So I’ll start with something true, and relevant — not possible and far-off.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 6:58 PM

This country is doomed. The media is the worst.
And look at all these blogs, this included, eating these asinine narratives up.
We’re all idiots, it seems.

bridgetown on May 17, 2012 at 6:59 PM

Like most things, it isn’t as simple as that.

BTW did you know this,
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amresolution.asp?id=899

1995?

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Well, better call up BYU and tell them they are wrong…all most of us can do is go to the authority and depend on them to be accurate. So far, they seem to be accurate, and blacks were denied priesthood + until 1978…embrace the truth, it was corrected, and why do you post something about the Baptist? That makes you feel better?
Notice they apologized and owned up to it…while you are dodging, weaving…learn from it, embrace and be proud of your heritage, don’t try to deceive, it doesn’t work.

right2bright on May 17, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Women still can’t hold the Priesthood in the LDS church. They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Because they are far superior to men. Men have to have the Priesthood as a crutch to stoke their egos and give them an added reason to choose the right.

Women do not need this crutch to do good.

At the local level it is well known that the Relief Society President (a woman) is the most powerful official. It is also well known that the women organizations work far better than the male ones. Many higher callings require you be married and your wife agree to help with the calling.

Very few women in the church desire to have the Priesthood. They know full well they are chosen of God as superior to men.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Evangelicalism self selected segregation creates REV Wrights.

Mormontheman on May 17, 2012 at 7:05 PM

Do the Dems give Harry Reid grief about being Mormom?
If not, why not?

SailorMark on May 17, 2012 at 7:08 PM

This country is doomed. The media is the worst.
And look at all these blogs, this included, eating these asinine narratives up.
We’re all idiots, it seems.

bridgetown on May 17, 2012 at 6:59 PM

Why are you so afraid of freedom of speech? Now THAT’S something to worry about. Better to get THE TRUTH out in the open and educate . . . don’t suppress the truth and be afraid of the the truth. By the way, does anyone know wheter there are arecheological proofs (i.e., evidence) for the historical claims of Book of Mormon (e.g., the major battle that occurred between the Nephites and Lamanites at the Hill Comorah)?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:09 PM

Because they are far superior to men. Men have to have the

Priesthood as a crutch to stoke their egos and give them an added reason to choose the right.

Women do not need this crutch to do good.

At the local level it is well known that the Relief Society President (a woman) is the most powerful official. It is also well known that the women organizations work far better than the male ones. Many higher callings require you be married and your wife agree to help with the calling.

Very few women in the church desire to have the Priesthood.[HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? WAS THERE A SURVEY OF ALL WOMEN IN THE MORMON CHURCH?] They know full well they are chosen of God as superior to men.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:11 PM

Notice they apologized and owned up to it…

In 1995!!!!

A full SEVENTEEN YEARS AFTER the LDS church made their change.

while you are dodging, weaving…learn from it, embrace and be proud of your heritage, don’t try to deceive, it doesn’t work.

right2bright on May 17, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Like Evangelicals running a site called “Mormonwiki”?

And, apparently you missed this, E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 6:36 PM

And his other posts.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:13 PM

Who know what the truth really is?

Check this out: http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

“Lyin’ for the Lord” from Mormonwiki.com

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM

By their fruits ye shall know them.

This “lying for the Lord” thing is pretty thin.

Will I discuss the least scripturally supported and most speculative doctrines in the whole of my theology with someone who doesn’t even have a framework to understand them? Not first thing.

If you ask me what I do for work, will I start by writing out the Higgs Mechanism Lagrangian? Not first thing.

You have no context or framework. So I’ll start with something true, and relevant — not possible and far-off.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 6:58 PM

Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘birth of Mormonism’? Where are the bones, fossils, etc.? Is there a museum that we can go to that contains these artifacts? Please help us learn more!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM

By the way, does anyone know wheter there are arecheological proofs (i.e., evidence) for the historical claims of Book of Mormon (e.g., the major battle that occurred between the Nephites and Lamanites at the Hill Comorah)?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:09 PM

Nothing direct. Bits and pieces, scattered around — easily seized on by believers, easily dismissed by skeptics.

Though anyone who knows anything about archaeology (especially in that part of the world) will tell you that anything could be hidden in those jungles. Our understanding of the past in Central and South America is speculative and fragmentary.

Want a good resource? Go read 1491 and 1493 by Charles Mann, who does an excellent job of discussing the state of the art in pre-Columbian understanding.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Is it true that “Very few women in the [Mormon] church desire to have the Priesthood.” as stated above by Steveangell?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:16 PM

Mormons have changed from that racial history. Their membership is open to all races from around the world. Rev. Wright has not changed and is still spewing hate on America, white people, asians, and Jews around the world.

jake49 on May 17, 2012 at 7:16 PM

By the way, does anyone know wheter there are arecheological proofs (i.e., evidence) for the historical claims of Book of Mormon (e.g., the major battle that occurred between the Nephites and Lamanites at the Hill Comorah)?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:09 PM

Well, since no one knows for sure where the final battle occurred (ie, the location of that Hill Comorah), no one knows where to look.

Is lack of evidence proof of absence?

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:17 PM

By the way, does anyone know wheter there are arecheological proofs (i.e., evidence) for the historical claims of Book of Mormon (e.g., the major battle that occurred between the Nephites and Lamanites at the Hill Comorah)?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:09 PM
Nothing direct. Bits and pieces, scattered around — easily seized on by believers, easily dismissed by skeptics.

Though anyone who knows anything about archaeology (especially in that part of the world) will tell you that anything could be hidden in those jungles. Our understanding of the past in Central and South America is speculative and fragmentary.

Want a good resource? Go read 1491 and 1493 by Charles Mann, who does an excellent job of discussing the state of the art in pre-Columbian understanding.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM

balderdash! poppycock! where’s the proof? Where are the ‘bits and pieces’ to which you refer? Please be specific. . . there’s a lot at stake here (no pun intended)!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:18 PM

Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘birth of Mormonism’? Where are the bones, fossils, etc.? Is there a museum that we can go to that contains these artifacts? Please help us learn more!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘resurrection of Christ’, the miracle of the bread and fishes, the water to wine.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:19 PM

CNN is as relative as fecal matter in the sun. Sooner or later all you have left is the smell.

volsense on May 17, 2012 at 7:19 PM

Mormons have changed from that racial history. Their membership is open to all races from around the world. Rev. Wright has not changed and is still spewing hate on America, white people, asians, and Jews around the world.

jake49 on May 17, 2012 at 7:16 PM

Rev. Wright is a man, not a religion. BIG DIFFERENCE!

By the way, why can’t just anyone go to the tabernacle for a visit? Most churches in other religions are open to all. Please explain.

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:20 PM

Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘birth of Mormonism’? Where are the bones, fossils, etc.? Is there a museum that we can go to that contains these artifacts? Please help us learn more!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Of course, if you want to know whether the Book of Mormon itself is a true book… I’d have to refer you to the book itself. Read it through and come to your own conclusion.

Web: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
Free paper copy: http://mormon.org/free-book-of-mormon/
Free iPhone app: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gospel-lbry/id365223775?mt=8

I’ve read it somewhere around 70 times, studied it in some detail, used authorship analysis tools on it, taken college classes on it, read tough criticisms of it, taught it to people, read it in Portugese and French…

It’s the best artifact I can suggest to support the otherwise difficult possibility that Joseph Smith was a prophet. :)

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:21 PM

Check this out: http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

“Lyin’ for the Lord” from Mormonwiki.com

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Yes.

When I want to find out about Catholic belief I go to the Baptist.

This site is total BS.

But I will say one thing. The LDS church gets into a lot of trouble because they are a lay religion (no paid preachers). Thus the leaders are not theological scholars. They really should have some but do not even at the highest level.

But President Hinckley was honest in this interview. We do not know much about how some of our Doctrines. God specifically. We go off half cocked and get into a lot of trouble because of it.

Polygamy. A false doctrine started by Joseph Smith. It is almost impossible to find a member that currently feels it valid.

Blacks and Priesthood. Political reasons started this it should have ended far sooner than it did.

God. Well those that really study this would agree with most churches. Unfortunately most in the church go of half cocked and say things they do not come close to understanding. We believe GOD has always existed and been GOD. We believe GOD is plural but in a way no man can possibly understand. We do believe that we can be one with GOD just as Jesus is because the New Testament says that. We do not believe GOD was ever a man GOD was always GOD. We do believe that GOD totally understands what we are going through just as if he had gone through it himself. What the verse “As man is GOD once was as GOD is man can become” means.

Again I reiterate. This is deep doctrine one we do not feel is necessary to understand. What matters is that we believe Christ to be our personal Savior and do all we can to follow him.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:22 PM

By the way, why can’t just anyone go to the tabernacle for a visit? Most churches in other religions are open to all. Please explain.

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:20 PM

The Mormon Tabernacle is located in SLC Utah. It is open to visitors during regular hours.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:23 PM

balderdash! poppycock! where’s the proof? Where are the ‘bits and pieces’ to which you refer? Please be specific. . . there’s a lot at stake here (no pun intended)!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:18 PM

I’m not going to mislead. I’m a scientist. I deal in actual proof.

Now, I also apply and appreciate applied faith and the knowledge that derives from it. I’m not, however, going to offer that to you as proof, though I encourage you to try it out for yourself.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:24 PM

Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘birth of Mormonism’? Where are the bones, fossils, etc.? Is there a museum that we can go to that contains these artifacts? Please help us learn more!

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:14 PM
Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘resurrection of Christ’, the miracle of the bread and fishes, the water to wine.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:19 PM

BIG DIFFERENCE . . .there are TONS of archeological/historical proofs for the existence of Christ and other events referenced in the Bible. I am not referring to miracles, etc. I am referring to history and supporting archeoloogy. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE. Please assist us all by providing supporting facts, evdience. This is important! If Mormons want to eliminate the skeptics, this question is an easy one to answer so that the myths can either be set aside or whatever. This isn’t a difficult questions to answer IF there are proofs and evidence. If there aren’t any, just admit the truth and move on. . .

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:24 PM

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:22 PM

Are you a Mormon?

It is rather clear that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:24 PM

Well in my mind they were always going to attack Romney about whatever they can attack Romney about. Its not as if we didn’t notice it during 2008. Sarah Palin, Bristol Palin, Willow Palin and little Trig Palin were all attacked by members of the media. Family Guy attacked Palin’s son Trig and won an award for their Downs Syndrome song for that episode. They know no shame. Its good to know we have something in the arsenal to return fire with.

magicbeans on May 17, 2012 at 7:27 PM

NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO THIS QUESTION YET: Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘birth of Mormonism’? Where are the bones, fossils, etc.? Is there a museum that we can go to that contains these artifacts? Please help us learn more!WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HELP THE READERS OF HOTAIR.COM BY PROVIDING AN ANSWER SO THAT THIS ISSUE CAN BE PUT TO REST, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:27 PM

This is why it was a mistake not to go full speed ahead with the ad. Should have just told Bammy to not get all “wee wee’d up.” Strike early, first, and often. There is no defense – only offense. When you strike – strike to kill (metaphorically speaking, of course).

Huckabye-Romney on May 17, 2012 at 7:28 PM

By the way, why can’t just anyone go to the tabernacle for a visit? Most churches in other religions are open to all. Please explain.

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:20 PM

Anyone can go to the Tabernacle.

Think you meant the Temple. In Christ day the Temple was also restricted to Jews. Same here. Totally biblical just most Religions no longer live this part of their religion. Did you never wonder why we do not have Temples today. Sorry but Christ being the Temple does not buy it for me.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:29 PM

By the way, why can’t just anyone go to the tabernacle for a visit? Most churches in other religions are open to all. Please explain.

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:20 PM

I think you mean “Temple”. And anyone with a modicum of Biblical knowledge should know that the holy parts of temples have never been open to casual traffic. :)

Temples that have been recently constructed or remodeled are almost always open for a few weeks before they are dedicated. At that point, it becomes a sacred place. One who would enter makes commitments to the Almighty, and receives promises in return.

Nothing changes architecturally between the open house and the dedication/operation of the temple. Not secret… sacred. Photos are available, just not tours.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:29 PM

BIG DIFFERENCE . . .

Actually NO, there is no difference.

there are TONS of archeological/historical proofs for the existence of Christ and other events referenced in the Bible.

But ABSOLUTELY no “archeological/historical proofs” of his resurrection, nor his miracles.

I am not referring to miracles, etc. I am referring to history and supporting archeoloogy. BIG BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again, no. ALL of the important parts MUST be accepted ON FAITH.

Please assist us all by providing supporting facts, evdience. This is important!

What would a “Nephite” artifact even look like?

How would you know if you found one?

Nobody knows.

If Mormons want to eliminate the skeptics, this question is an easy one to answer so that the myths can either be set aside or whatever.

We are not interested in skeptics, only the faithful.

This isn’t a difficult questions to answer IF there are proofs and evidence. If there aren’t any, just admit the truth and move on. . .

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:24 PM

There is plenty of evidence for those inclined to believe.

But sorry, there are no proof in matters of faith and there NEVER will be.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:30 PM

I am not Mormon but do know a lot about the Church. The Mormon church does not change by consensus. The President of the church issued a decree regarding blacks and the priesthood in this case. He is considered an apostle. I believe there have been over 1,500 such changes in the history of the church. As far as I know with such a decree the position of the church is changed. Period. It would not be fair to blame any member of the church for past positions such as this.

Reverend Wright on the other hand is current and active in his positions.

BullShooterAsInElk on May 17, 2012 at 7:30 PM

WHY WOULDN’T Rev. Wright be fair game? The man is stating that one of Obama’s closest friends was offering $150,000.00 to Rev. Wright IF ONLY he would “shut up” until after the 2008 Presidential Election!!!!!

DixT on May 17, 2012 at 7:34 PM

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HELP THE READERS OF HOTAIR.COM BY PROVIDING AN ANSWER SO THAT THIS ISSUE CAN BE PUT TO REST, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:27 PM

As the Apostle Paul said,

1 Cor 1:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HELP THE READERS OF HOTAIR.COM BY PROVIDING AN ANSWER SO THAT THIS ISSUE CAN BE PUT TO REST, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:27 PM

How much proof is there for the Bible but many still deny it.

In the early accounts of America there are many accounts of Jewish writings being found by early settlers. But they wanted the Indians land and if they accepted the Indians were Jewish it would be far harder to take their land. Thus these relics were destroyed and even made illegal.

But there is no proof of the Book of Mormon really. Most likely they were in the US probably western New York not Central America where people were looking for proof.

Read the Book. Then compare it to the Bible. Ask yourself could someone have actually written this. Pray about it. Only GOD can give one faith. Faith is what is the proof.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM

This IS NOT black liberation theology vs. Mormonism! It’s about a “felony” pay-off!

DixT on May 17, 2012 at 7:38 PM

Let Romney’s surrogates paint the History of anti Mormon bigotry and predjudice. Highlight the murder of Joseph Smith in Carthage Ill and the governor of Missouri’s extermination order against that state’s Mormons. An order ignored by militia officer Alexander Doniphan.(an episode of TV’s Profiles in Courage.)As a learned member of the LDS Romney can speak to thuse bigotries and to the violent Mormon reactions, think Mountain Meadow. And he might be able to connect with members of groups with grievances against the majority, real and perceived, about the futility of violence and the lessons of self reliance.

xkaydet65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:41 PM

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HELP THE READERS OF HOTAIR.COM BY PROVIDING AN ANSWER SO THAT THIS ISSUE CAN BE PUT TO REST, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Yeah, Diogenes. We’ll get right on that.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:41 PM

None of the Willard McDole Kiddies on this board had a problem with referring to Rick Santorum’s religious views as “extreme”.

What’s happening now? Oh that’s right – as usual, the Willy McDole kids want to hold their boy to a different standard – no one is allowed to talk about HIS extreme views!! LOL.

Leave Obama alone on Rev Wright kiddies – the GOP nominee has BAGGAGE in that department.

And leave Obama alone on OBAMACARE too kiddies – the GOP nominee has BAGGAGE in that department too!

Willy McDole = Flawed Candidate

John McRage > Willy McDole

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:42 PM

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Love this verse. Love the entire Bible.

You have to have Faith in GOD. Same with the Book of Mormon. I believe in the Book of Mormon totally. But will say some of the teachings of the church are not well thought out. It is like they came from a sixth grader. They really need to study the Bible far more than they do the leaders of the Church.

But I can not deny the Book of Mormon. It just really adds to the Bible. The truth there is just taught better on many subjects. Read it and decide for yourself. I look at the Church as the organization GOD will use when he comes back. But believe he will really have to shake it up then. Many false doctrines have crept into it. It is far from perfect just like all men sin and fall short of the Glory of God. But many of the Prophets in the bible were also far from perfect. There is no perfection on Earth and never has been except for Christ.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:45 PM

Let Romney’s surrogates paint the History of anti Mormon bigotry and predjudice. Highlight the murder of Joseph Smith in Carthage Ill and the governor of Missouri’s extermination order against that state’s Mormons. An order ignored by militia officer Alexander Doniphan.(an episode of TV’s Profiles in Courage.)As a learned member of the LDS Romney can speak to thuse bigotries and to the violent Mormon reactions, think Mountain Meadow. And he might be able to connect with members of groups with grievances against the majority, real and perceived, about the futility of violence and the lessons of self reliance.

xkaydet65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:41 PM

“Attrocities” against Mormons were caused by Joseph Smith. His plan to keep fools believing in his prophetic abilities RELIED on creating a “bunker mentality”.

He did that by pi$$ing off the local populations everywhere he went by BREAKING THEIR LAWS.

As far as the “murder” of little Joey Smith the pervert – well, let he without sin throw the first stone – since we know that Lil’ Joey created the “Danites” to violently purge bad influences from the Mormon congregation and later on they applied this violence to the “gentile” populations around them.

Let’s talk about the tyranical THEOCRACY that Brigham Young set up in Utah. Let’s talk about the fact that the Mountain Meadows Massacre happened under his watch and the only man convicted of that massacre claimed that Young himself had ordered it. Let’s talk about the castrations of Mormon men who were bold enough to tell Brigham Young “NO” when he directed they should give up a wife to one of Brigham’s friends. Perverts.

Let’s talk about the federal judges who fled Utah for fear of their lives and yes – let’s talk about the President who had to send troops to Utah to fire Brigham Young.

Then let’s talk about how many dollars Willy McDole has given to Mormon institutions with BRIGHAM YOUNG’S name.

LOL

YEAH – NO WONDER WILLY WON’T TALK ABOUT REV WRIGHT – WILLY IS SITTING ON SOME FAT BAGGAGE HIMSELF!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:50 PM

NO ONE HAS RESPONDED TO THIS QUESTION YET:Please explain the archeological proofs in support of the ‘birth of Mormonism’? Where are the bones, fossils, etc.? Is there a museum that we can go to that contains these artifacts? Please help us learn more!WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HELP THE READERS OF HOTAIR.COM BY PROVIDING AN ANSWER SO THAT THIS ISSUE CAN BE PUT TO REST, ONCE AND FOR ALL?

Pragmatic on May 17, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Please don’t capitalize, it’s childish. And no one cares if you don’t believe in the Mormon theology so get over yourself. Why should anyone answer you? Is there proof for every single incident in any religion? No. So get a life and move on to something else. It’s becfoming tedious and boring.

Deanna on May 17, 2012 at 7:51 PM

Women still can’t hold the Priesthood in the LDS church. They have the “Relief Society” which is where their callings are.

portlandon on May 17, 2012 at 6:33 PM

Women can’t hold the Priesthood in Catholic or Eastern Orthodox churches, either.Their “calling” is the nunnery.

Only about 1/2 of the various Protestant religions allow women to be ordained clergy.

A woman can’t be the Dalai Lama either.

Seems like LDS is still in the majority.

Dark Star on May 17, 2012 at 7:53 PM

YEAH – NO WONDER WILLY WON’T TALK ABOUT REV WRIGHT – WILLY IS SITTING ON SOME FAT BAGGAGE HIMSELF!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:50 PM

Geez another person who thinks capitalizing will somehow make what they have to say important. No one cares if you don’t like the Mormon religion. No one cares if you hate all Mormons or Buddhists or Catholics or Wiccans or whatever. Get it, no one cares.

Deanna on May 17, 2012 at 7:54 PM

I believe in the Book of Mormon totally.

Steveangell on May 17, 2012 at 7:45 PM

So you believe there were Horses and Honey Bees in America when the lost tribes of Israel came to the new world?

You believe that the Indians are the Lamanites (Israelites) who’s skin was darkened through apostasy – even though not a shard of DNA evidence in native Americans links them to the Jews of Israel?

Oh – and you believe the Book of Mormon is written in King James English even though Joe Smith didn’t speak in the King James language and no one in New York in the 1830′s did either? And – the so-called “plates” came from a time WELL BEFORE King James? LOL

Great.

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:55 PM

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:50 PM

And that’s how it’s done, folks! Give it up for the man on the Honda!

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:56 PM

So you believe there were Horses and Honey Bees in America when the lost tribes of Israel came to the new world?

You believe that the Indians are the Lamanites (Israelites) who’s skin was darkened through apostasy – even though not a shard of DNA evidence in native Americans links them to the Jews of Israel?

Oh – and you believe the Book of Mormon is written in King James English even though Joe Smith didn’t speak in the King James language and no one in New York in the 1830′s did either? And – the so-called “plates” came from a time WELL BEFORE King James? LOL

Great.

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:55 PM

Opens mouth, removes all doubt. ;)

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:57 PM

Geez another person who thinks capitalizing will somehow make what they have to say important. No one cares if you don’t like the Mormon religion. No one cares if you hate all Mormons or Buddhists or Catholics or Wiccans or whatever. Get it, no one cares.

Deanna on May 17, 2012 at 7:54 PM

You care – or you would’ve ignored my post. :D

LOL – idiots who can’t see their own logical flaws!!

What would Hot Air be without them?

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:58 PM

You care – or you would’ve ignored my post. :D

LOL – idiots who can’t see their own logical flaws!!

What would Hot Air be without them?

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Minus one awesome Honda, that’s where!

Awesome comedy. Keep it up.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:59 PM

What would a “Nephite” artifact even look like?

How would you know if you found one?

Nobody knows.

Gunlock Bill on May 17, 2012 at 7:30 PM

A “Nephite” artifact would look like a pre-classic Mayan artifact.
A “Jardeite” artifact would look like an Olmec artifact.


Evidences for the Book of Mormon

A Good Case for Book of Mormon GeographyRiver Sidon = Grijalva River

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 7:59 PM

Opens mouth, removes all doubt. ;)

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:57 PM

Just tellin’ ya what Mormons believe – they believe in things that are provably wrong.

There’s more than a few here – they can deny it. Let them explain the appearance of Horses and Honey bees on a continent we now know they didn’t exist at the time the BoM says they did.

LOL!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Minus one awesome Honda, that’s where!

Awesome comedy. Keep it up.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 7:59 PM

You subtract one from me? Aww – well, I’m not fretting cuz I’m giving you the AD HOMENIM AWARD OF THE DAY!!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:02 PM

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 7:59 PM

Just explain to me where the Horses and Honey Bees came from if they weren’t here when the lost tribes landed in the New World.

LOL!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:02 PM

You care – or you would’ve ignored my post. :D

LOL – idiots who can’t see their own logical flaws!!

What would Hot Air be without them?

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 7:58 PM

wow…

Ampersand on May 17, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Just explain to me where the Horses and Honey Bees came from if they weren’t here when the lost tribes landed in the New World.

LOL!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Are you old enough to remember what it was like when they were here?

Just because evidence hasn’t been discovered yet, doesn’t mean it won’t be found. Many of the items considered misses have since been confirmed as hits.

Pre-Classic Wheat and barley for instance have been located.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 8:05 PM

Just tellin’ ya what Mormons believe – they believe in things that are provably wrong.

There’s more than a few here – they can deny it. Let them explain the appearance of Horses and Honey bees on a continent we now know they didn’t exist at the time the BoM says they did.

LOL!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:00 PM

That’s religion. You think a Christians belief in the flood is any less weird?

Ampersand on May 17, 2012 at 8:05 PM

Just tellin’ ya what Mormons believe – they believe in things that are provably wrong.

There’s more than a few here – they can deny it. Let them explain the appearance of Horses and Honey bees on a continent we now know they didn’t exist at the time the BoM says they did.

LOL!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Since I’m Mormon…

Horses: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=129

Honeybees are mentioned here, as being something carried by a group emigrating from the Old World. No guarantee that they survived in the Americas.

Bzzzzt.

Thanks for playing.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 8:06 PM

That’s religion. You think a Christians belief in the flood is any less weird?

Ampersand on May 17, 2012 at 8:05 PM

Not all Christians believe in a literal “flood”. Some Christians believe in Evolution – some don’t. The Christian religion is a diverse religion with many sects. The Mormon religion is damn near homogenous.

Big difference.

Also – the Mormon religion is based on a pervert’s desire to have sex with as many women as possible – so he proclaimed it a “prophesy”. Joseph Smith was nothing more than a treasure hunter out to enrich himself – what better way than to invent a religion and raise an army of eager fools who willingly gave him their money.

LOL – and they came from all corners of the globe to do it.

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:10 PM

OK — off to home.

For anyone who cares:

I’ve been studying the Book of Mormon since I was 8. I was skeptical for a long time. I’ve since examined it carefully (as I mentioned previously in the thread) and am convinced that it is what it represents itself to be. My convictions come from both internal evidence in the text and from communication with the Almighty.

Honda has not examined the text in any great detail and is regurgitating the same tired anti-Mormon points that have been floating around for decades. They are pointless and trivial — shiny distractions from the profound beauty that you will find in the Book of Mormon if you take the time to crack it open and actually read it.

If you want to weigh the accuracy of Honda’s assertions… I hope this helps.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM

Nice to see your mature and open minded about it, Honda.

E L Frederick (Sniper One) on May 17, 2012 at 8:13 PM

Glad I could help.. :) we are in this together!

Can.I.be.in.the.middle on May 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM

..you need a Midol?

The War Planner on May 17, 2012 at 8:13 PM

Thanks for playing.

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 8:06 PM

No – thank YOU for playing my fool.

There were NO horses and NO honey bees when your precious “lost tribes” touched down in the Americas. These came much later and the archeological evidence proves it.

Your own church has stated that it can’t explain the absence of proof for honey bees and horses – only that somehow the BoM is correct about them existing but they just haven’t discovered the archeological evidence for them yet.

LOL – no they haven’t – and they never will.

Thanks for playing!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:14 PM

As BuzzFeed points out, most Americans know next to nothing about LDS, which makes it a blank slate that might be used effectively by a sufficiently vicious/desperate campaign operative.

As opposed to the average American’s deep knowledge of Black Liberation Theology?

I’m sorry, both are out of the mainstream.

However, one, wierd though its past might be, currently has a rather mundane, family oriented, traditional American bent.

The other is Black Liberation Theology.

If they want to fight family values with racial grievances, I don’t see how they can possibly win.

The only reason they got away with it last cycle is that McCain wouldn’t go after Obama for the 20 years he sat in Rev. Wright’s church.

I would hope that no member of the GOP would make that mistake again.

JadeNYU on May 17, 2012 at 8:14 PM

Honda: He knows all, he sees all. He is ALL.

thebrokenrattle on May 17, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Honda has not examined the text in any great detail

Prufrock on May 17, 2012 at 8:12 PM

Uhm – I used to be a Mormon. In fact, I’ve never read the Bible all the way through but I’ve damn sure read the BoM several times.

They got me in High School – as an impressionable kid. Fortunately – my Dad got me back on track after a year by pointing out the freakish flaws in the BOM and how wrong the whole Mormon religion is.

It’s a stealthy religion these days – clean cut – nice – ordered. Everyone smiles.

It wasn’t that way when Joey Smith (pervert) was running around sending his Danites out to kill and maim people.

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:17 PM

Honda: He knows all, he sees all. He is ALL.

thebrokenrattle on May 17, 2012 at 8:15 PM

I know more than pervert Joseph Smith did – if I were to invent a religion – I wouldn’t insist there were animals in the Americas that didn’t exist when the “lost tribes” supposedly came here.

And – I wouldn’t have written it in King James English when no one at the time spoke that way.

LOL.

Then again – he was a stupid treasure hunter.

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:19 PM

Your own church has stated that it can’t explain the absence of proof for honey bees and horses – only that somehow the BoM is correct about them existing but they just haven’t discovered the archeological evidence for them yet.

LOL – no they haven’t – and they never will.

Thanks for playing!

HondaV65 on May 17, 2012 at 8:14 PM

..why so exercised about this, Miles? No one’s tramping over to your door and forcing you to become a Mormon are they? Hell, even if they were like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or something, so what?

I have been visited by both and they are either nice clean-cut young men or sweet older ladies who are polite — not intrusive — and only want to share their joy in their belief system with you.

It isn’t like they have a bomb strapped to their abdomens or are handing out NAMBLA literature or like that.

And, insofar as I can tell, any religion that had its adherents refrain from stimulating drink of any kind can’t be all that bad.

The War Planner on May 17, 2012 at 8:22 PM

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