U.S. faces a reverse brain drain, as highly educated immigrants head home

posted at 3:41 pm on April 17, 2012 by Tina Korbe

An article in today’s Economic Times highlights a discouraging, but not surprising trend: All of a sudden, highly educated children of immigrants are transplanting themselves to their ancestral (developing) countries, where economic opportunities and “creative energy” abound.

Enterprising Americans have always sought opportunities abroad. But this new wave underscores the evolving nature of global migration, which is presenting challenges to US supremacy and competitiveness. …

For generations, the world’s less-developed countries have suffered brain drain – the flight of many of their best and brightest to the West. That, of course, has not stopped. But now, a reverse flow has begun, particularly to countries like China and India and, to a lesser extent, Brazil and Russia. Some scholars and business leaders contend that this emigration does not necessarily bode ill for the US.

They say young entrepreneurs and highly educated professionals sow American knowledge and skills abroad. At the same time, these workers acquire experience abroad and build networks that they can carry back to the US or elsewhere – a pattern known as “brain circulation.”

But the experts caution that in the global race for talent, the return of these expatriates to the US and US companies is no longer a sure bet.

The article points out the obvious: These immigrant children aren’t acting on mere whims. They’re responding to employment, investment, tax and visa incentives. They’re responding, in short, to the government policies of foreign countries.

Why bring this up? This weekend, the president previewed his approach to immigration policy. It’ll be one of inaction and blame and above all of obsession with what to do about immigrants who are already in the country illegally.

The president knew what he was doing by talking about immigration this weekend. He was able to hit his target demographic — much-needed Hispanic voters — with a message to which they’d be receptive and simultaneously fly under the MSM and general radar.

As I argued in my response to the president’s comments, though, we don’t necessarily need a discussion about what to do about immigrants who are already in the country illegally. It’s possible to argue that the consequence of the choice they made to enter the country illegally — the consequence of living an undocumented life “in the shadows,” as they say — is somewhat of a deterrent to others who would otherwise follow their example. At any rate, the question of what to about those who crossed our borders illegally is a question of law enforcement. It’s really not a question of immigration policy, as closely related as it might be.

Immigration policy actually concerns itself with two questions: Who do we want to attract to our country and how do we attract them? Who do we want to prevent from entering our country and how do we prevent them?

Clearly, other countries are answering these questions for themselves and implementing policies according to the answers. Meanwhile, the United States continues to operate according to an outdated immigration quota system. It’s that system that needs reform.


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KOOLAID, you are needed here :-)..ASAP :-)

jimver on April 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM

No worries, I am sure Obama will do what East Berlin did when the same thing happened there.

The Notorious G.O.P on April 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM

Sowing and Reaping.

Dr Evil on April 17, 2012 at 3:46 PM

Immigration policy actually concerns itself with two questions: Who do we want to attract to our country and how do we attract them? Who do we want to prevent from entering our country and how do we prevent them?

It starts with changing the help wanted sign out there on the statue of Liberty.

Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry, huddled masses

We should aim a little higher with our entrance requirements.

BobMbx on April 17, 2012 at 3:47 PM

Not to worry, the elite liberal colleges are gearing-up to provide more classes in Womyn’s Studies and Transgenders Through History, and America will once again be on the cutting edge of education.

Bishop on April 17, 2012 at 3:49 PM

If you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, this is what you get. In order to break the cycle of corruption, to dismantle the one party system, you have to vote against the party, which means you have to vote for the guy that seems to know more than anybody else but they tell you that he is a clown because he is a threat to the crony-capitalist, one-party system.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 3:50 PM

The most serious case of brain drain resides within this entire present administration.

Logus on April 17, 2012 at 3:53 PM

KOOLAID, you are needed here :-)..ASAP :-)

jimver on April 17, 2012 at 3:44 PM

….sorry I’m late!…had to pee!
(:>)

KOOLAID2 on April 17, 2012 at 3:53 PM

Why stay in a country where intelligence and hard work is not rewarded, but living on welfare is?

Do you suppose these immigrants realize better than most what liberals are doing to America?

Roy Rogers on April 17, 2012 at 3:53 PM

And then when these people all find that the US govt. will tax them on their foreign income, plus demand to know the details of every bank account they have in their ancestral country they will give up any US residence or citizenship.
http://hotair.com/headlines/archives/2012/04/17/1800-people-renounced-u-s-citizenship-last-year-many-for-tax-reasons/#comments

The US has lots of idiots in charge.

albill on April 17, 2012 at 3:54 PM

Could it also be because they have money to go back and start a business in a developing economy rather than here where the regulations kill your business out of the gate?

aniptofar on April 17, 2012 at 3:56 PM

highly educated children of immigrants are transplanting themselves to their ancestral (developing) countries

Go figure. Wonder why they didn’t leave before becoming highly educated.

Some people will do anything to skip out on their student debt. /

VietVet_Dave on April 17, 2012 at 3:56 PM

In order to break the cycle of corruption, to dismantle the one party system, you have to vote against the party, which means you have to vote for the guy that seems to know more than anybody else but they tell you that he is a clown because he is a threat to the crony-capitalist, one-party system.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 3:50 PM

Is there a point in here, anywhere at all?

NoDonkey on April 17, 2012 at 3:56 PM

It starts with changing the help wanted sign out there on the statue of Liberty.

Give me your tired, your poor, your hungry, huddled masses

We should aim a little higher with our entrance requirements.

BobMbx on April 17, 2012 at 3:47 PM

I’m afraid so. It’s a noble goal and appeals to our egalitarian ideals, but the times have changed too much.

MelonCollie on April 17, 2012 at 3:57 PM

Good Tina!
Soon…we will all be taking Siesta’s several times a day. We’ll be riding on bus roofs and hanging on the bus windows with exterior footpads… for transportation…and the kids will be wiring or sending us money orders every month.

KOOLAID2 on April 17, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Nominate somebody like Ron Paul, give him the bully pulpit, and Congress won’t have much choice but to reform. When it comes to freedom and liberty, America only needs a leader. Instead the corporate interests that benefit from our crony-capitalist system make sure to own both sides of the isle. It is by their wish that you, the voters, are denied a choice. They tell you, your only choice is to choose between Obamacare or Romneycare. Never mind that that is no choice at all, you don’t own the government. Tough luck, maybe you should start a corporation of your own, buy political clout in our crony-capitalist system, and then maybe your opinion will matter.

What we have a is a government of the corporations, for the corporations, and a lot of frightened people who are governed by fear. A drowning man will grasp at anything, even the corrupt status quo.

You guys probably dismiss me as an Occupy Wall Street crowd, but in fact I’m not, I’m a free market capitalist who apposed all the bailouts that Obama and Romney and Bush and McCain supported. Crony Capitalism is wrong even if the Democrat and Republican parties both support it.

The time for change is now. With the technology today the window of opportunity to head off totalitarianism may soon be closed. With technology, including bio-tech, the human species may never again free itself from bondage. It may be possible for the iron fist to be so effective that unless there is a bug in their programming or an outside influence, (like an asteroid or alien invasion), their grip may never again slip. Just because they might do it with a smiley face and not slaughter people in the process, your great, great grandchildren will still be enslaved.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 4:03 PM

Along with the intelligent immigrants record numbers of Americans are giving up their citizenship and leaving for other countries because of the taxes and regulations.

mixplix on April 17, 2012 at 4:04 PM

Most people in this country have a romanticized idea of immigrants. Talk to the ones getting educated here. They have no loyalty to this country. The vast majority of them want to get educated here, maybe make some money and take all the resources they collect here, home.

We need to revamp our education and then our immigration policy. Educate native-born Americans so we don’t need so many aliens, and then perhaps a 10 or 15 year moratorium on immigration to allow for that all-important, but never mentioned process, ASSIMILATION.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:06 PM

I say good riddence. H1B visa programs should also be halted while the unemployment rate is over 6 percent.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 4:12 PM

No longer will the world’s greatest medical professionals come here.
Under ObamaCare, they’d be bound up by red tape & their incomes would be limited.

itsnotaboutme on April 17, 2012 at 4:12 PM

Nominate somebody like Ron Paul, give him the bully pulpit, and Congress won’t have much choice but to reform.

I don’t want a POTUS who will force me to tear down my fences.

Bishop on April 17, 2012 at 4:13 PM

What we have a is a government of the corporations, for the corporations, and a lot of frightened people who are governed by fear. A drowning man will grasp at anything, even the corrupt status quo. (snip)

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 4:03 PM

Ah, here is the pearl.

DoubleClutchin on April 17, 2012 at 4:14 PM

H1B visa programs should also be halted while the unemployment rate is over 6 percent.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 4:12 PM

This would kill much of the productive work being done in the US. H1B immigrants are not brought here because employers have a fetish for immigrants, it’s because there aren’t enough qualified workers here.

As for the broader issue, I feel like a lot of you are missing a key point: it’s not at all easy to start a business or climb the social ladder in countries like India, China, Brazil, or Russia. They have just as much red tape (or in the case of India, more) than we have here. Their taxes are not low. They have less personal freedom. A republican administration will not change what’s going on here.

ernesto on April 17, 2012 at 4:15 PM

Is it reverse brain drain? Isn’t it just a brain drain? Or, more accurately, isn’t a bigger problem the garbage put into American kids’ heads?

A lot of immigrants came as students and stated they planned to return home to use their educational and work experiences from the USA to better their own countries. Sometimes, it takes a generation or two.

Christien on April 17, 2012 at 4:15 PM

I say good riddence.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 4:12 PM

Your reasoning skills are outdone by your spelling ability.

The US is a nation of immigrants & their descendants.

Perhaps nicknack is a bitter aboriginal American (commonly known as Indian)…?

itsnotaboutme on April 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM

Not to worry, the elite liberal colleges are gearing-up to provide more classes in Womyn’s Studies and Transgenders Through History, and America will once again be on the cutting edge of education.

Bishop on April 17, 2012 at 3:49 PM

Are you serious? I didn’t know that the US education system was part of the problem, or liberal arts colleges where Jobs education shaped the future of the computer industry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

Why stay in a country where intelligence and hard work is not rewarded, but living on welfare is?

Do you suppose these immigrants realize better than most what liberals are doing to America?

Roy Rogers on April 17, 2012 at 3:53 PM

You are truly clueless- most educated immigrants aren’t closet right wingers. Immigrants are returning to countries like India that are far more socialist than the USA. A much larger issue is perceived hostility toward immigrants in some parts of the country, in addition to the difficulty of attaining citizenship. I know some high educated Indians who attended top tier US universities but feel completely shut out by the long naturalization process and all the new hurdles created after 9-11.

bayam on April 17, 2012 at 4:17 PM

and the kids will be wiring or sending us money orders every month.

KOOLAID2 on April 17, 2012 at 4:02 PM

…from China or/and India :-)…

jimver on April 17, 2012 at 4:18 PM

My wife had the highest GPA in her pre-med nursing course… they took all the nigerians and columbians that were planning to go home as soon as they got their RN. Training the world to leave us holding the bag for their education, while we fail to educate our kids that want to learn and force those that do not to take up space and resources.

rgranger on April 17, 2012 at 4:18 PM

Most people in this country have a romanticized idea of immigrants. Talk to the ones getting educated here. They have no loyalty to this country. The vast majority of them want to get educated here, maybe make some money and take all the resources they collect here, home.

We need to revamp our education and then our immigration policy. Educate native-born Americans so we don’t need so many aliens, and then perhaps a 10 or 15 year moratorium on immigration to allow for that all-important, but never mentioned process, ASSIMILATION.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:06 PM

Someone gets it.

In grad school for transportation engineering, there were plenty of Chinese students that just couldn’t understand why self-driving cars that could report their position to the government at all times was frightening to Americans. It’s not only the issue avgjo mentioned, but it’s those that stay and go into higher academia and start affecting policy decisions think in the ways of the communist homeland. So this trend isn’t all bad.

We need American-grown experts, and we have the universities. We just need a culture that doesn’t make villains out of professionally successful men.

Transpo on April 17, 2012 at 4:22 PM

Most people in this country have a romanticized idea of immigrants. Talk to the ones getting educated here. They have no loyalty to this country. The vast majority of them want to get educated here, maybe make some money and take all the resources they collect here, home.

We need to revamp our education and then our immigration policy. Educate native-born Americans so we don’t need so many aliens, and then perhaps a 10 or 15 year moratorium on immigration to allow for that all-important, but never mentioned process, ASSIMILATION.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:06 PM

Bingo. These so called “immigrants” aren’t the Ellis Island and prior type. They don’t give a damn about this country, its culture or its history. My own area has become a mixture of unidentified third worlders and the invasion of Muslims with their 7th century mentality continues. Sadly, the Rs don’t want to do a thing about it. Romney’s all for raising visa limits. Bachmann was the only one who understood the problem with illegal and unchecked legal immigration. We’ve turned into a third world dumping ground.

TxAnn56 on April 17, 2012 at 4:23 PM

In order to break the cycle of corruption, to dismantle the one party system, you have to vote against the party, which means you have to vote for the guy that seems to know more than anybody else but they tell you that he is a clown because he is a threat to the crony-capitalist, one-party system.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 3:50 PM

Is there a point in here, anywhere at all?

NoDonkey on April 17, 2012 at 3:56 PM

The point was that people have to stop voting for crony-capitalists if they want America to get better and their lives to improve.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 4:24 PM

bayam on April 17, 2012 at 4:17 PM

LOL…witnessed several South Asians naturalized in the past year. No degrees, no connections, total breeze. Extremely fast process, too.

Christien on April 17, 2012 at 4:26 PM

Most people in this country have a romanticized idea of immigrants. Talk to the ones getting educated here. They have no loyalty to this country. The vast majority of them want to get educated here, maybe make some money and take all the resources they collect here, home

.

Silicon valley and the US technology sector would lose most of its vigor and much of its collective IQ without immigrants. Spend some time at Intel’s R&D labs or get to know who’s making things happen behind the scenes at high growth startup companies and this becomes evident. Many, many immigrants have no interest in moving back to their home countries.

bayam on April 17, 2012 at 4:26 PM

TxAnn56 on April 17, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Immigration isn’t “invasion”, unless you’re talking about the white man’s arrival on the continent…though eradication would be a more fitting word. Either way, you’re crazy, and I hope those Muslims give you grief for the rest of your life.

ernesto on April 17, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Yet when they were coming up and their families were doing well, they would strongly insist that they are just as American as anybody else, and they love this country as much as anyone, and that they are true Patriots.

Dr. ZhivBlago on April 17, 2012 at 4:30 PM

American has, for decades, taken more legal immigrants than the rest of the world – combined.

With real unemployment North of 20%, it’s time, past time, for a complete immigration moratorium for at least 10 years – and get serious about getting rid of the illegals.

Rebar on April 17, 2012 at 4:31 PM

bayam 4:26

I have talked to many technology professionals from other countries. It is precisely THEY who changed me from one of those with a romantic notion of immigrants to someone with the view I have now.

Are there immigrants who don’t want to go back? Sure. Are there immigrants that have loyalty to America and want to become Americans? Certainly. But by and large, I stand by what I said and I will until experience and trends prove me wrong.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:32 PM

Immigration isn’t “invasion”, unless you’re talking about the white man’s arrival on the continent…though eradication would be a more fitting word. Either way, you’re crazy, and I hope those Muslims give you grief for the rest of your life.

ernesto on April 17, 2012 at 4:27 PM

And thus, the liberal War on Conservative Women continues.

NapaConservative on April 17, 2012 at 4:32 PM

I say good riddence. H1B visa programs should also be halted while the unemployment rate is over 6 percent.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 4:12 PM

Thread is about reverse brain drain…priceless

Bradky on April 17, 2012 at 4:32 PM

Bayam

I also concede totally your point about IQ drop. That’s why I mentioned education reform before immigration reform.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:33 PM

This is so simple.

The highly educated foreigners generally build/produce/create and, unless they are the Silicon and other dummy Utopian types, like Gates, the Yahoo fools, vote with the Rs.

The masses, the moochers, vote with the Ds.

The latter ruin the country. The former fing opportunities elsewhere, where the regulations and taxes favor business and enterprise better these days than in the good ol’ U.S.

May both parties go to Hades over their immigration insanity, for different reasons.

The dumber the land becomes the bluer she will be. Just look at the dummies in Congress.

Schadenfreude on April 17, 2012 at 4:34 PM

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:32 PM

Yep. You’re right.

Christien on April 17, 2012 at 4:35 PM

U.S. faces a reverse brain drain, as highly educated immigrants head home

Unfortunately, those that earned their Peruvian bongo studies or grievance degrees are not going to be the ones leaving.

jrgdds on April 17, 2012 at 4:37 PM

Our “finest” institutions are competing to see who can be the most diverse in all ways, nationality being a priority.

Alums unite! Stop contributing to the schools until they change their ways.

If you’ve told them you have provided for them in your will, time for a codicil. And make sure they know why.

EconomicNeocon on April 17, 2012 at 4:40 PM

Immigration isn’t “invasion”, unless you’re talking about the white man’s arrival on the continent…though eradication would be a more fitting word.

ernesto on April 17, 2012 at 4:27 PM

So have you purchased your return ticket to your ancestral homeland yet? Or are you gonna hang around a bit longer in WhiteRacistland, you know, to continue to point out how racist we are?

Taking one for the team by staying behind?

BobMbx on April 17, 2012 at 4:42 PM

Republicans should become the party of “Open the Borders to ANYONE that wants to follow the law” If you show up on the border, and you have no criminal record, and want to make a life in the states, here’s a green card, go get a job or create a business.

Anyone that comes here illegally, boot them out. No amnesty. We want law-followers and go-getters. ANyone, regardless of origin, without any limits.

The problems are far less that way than with this arbitrary, often classist, and racist methodology we follow now.

And worse, they get here and start to hate those that made it so hard to get here.
Why waste my time typing that. Ridiculous.
Nothing like that will ever happen.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 4:43 PM

The US has the reputation of being a freeloader’s paradise. Most immigrants of today don’t resemble the immigrants who came through Ellis Island.

The immigrants of yesteryear came here with the intent to make a better life for their families. They planned to stay for life and raise their children and grandchildren to be Americans. They learned english, worked hard, took advantage of the opportunities this country had to offer in a responsible way, and they never looked back.

Most of today’s immigrants do not share this vision. They come here with the intent to take advantage of all the programs created for them without paying back much into the system (I know, they pay sales tax)and then go back home as soon as they have enough to buy a house or two back home. They never intend to become Americans because deep down they detest us and our way of life.

They just use America as a looting ground. A looting ground happily enabled by clueless liberals who want to be able to pat themselves on the back and say that they are multi-cultural.

And they laugh at us every day because it’s like taking candy from a 2-year old.

NapaConservative on April 17, 2012 at 4:46 PM

Why would anyone want to be successful here? We do stupid things like tax the hell out of capital gains. No other country on the planet taxes capital gains like we do. Most countries don’t tax them AT ALL.

Our government has been so used to being the place where people came just because “its America” that they felt they could just tax the living crap out of people and they won’t go anywhere else because, hey, this is America! Well, there are alternatives and just being America isn’t going to work if you tax yourself out of your own market.

California does the same thing. They figure people won’t leave because, hey, it’s California! But people and businesses ARE leaving … in droves.

Democrats are idiots when it comes to economics.

crosspatch on April 17, 2012 at 4:47 PM

well its pretty simple if you think about it. Why stay in a country where the language, culture, customs, etc., are foreign to you if there is no real incentive to do so? Many of the immigrants in our past who we so romanticize only stayed in the US because they figured they could do better here than back home, so they made the best of it. But many of them, if they could have, would have made some money and headed back to the old country where family, friends, and familiarity abound.

America is a great country, sure, but that’s at least partially because it is home to us. Some folks would rather struggle a little bit more in their native country than stay in the US. The fact is many “developing” countries offer tremendous opportunity to live a middle class or better life style especially since there has been such rapid economic development around the world.

theblackcommenter on April 17, 2012 at 4:52 PM

A young friend of mine who was born in Hong Kong, but grew up in the US, worked from the time he was 10 or 11 at his parents diner, and got a very good education in engineering. He couldn’t get a job that paid what he thought he deserved in the states, and after a few years, was offered a great job in Guangzhou, China and moved back this past year. His dad told me that the opportunities are not the same in the US as they were when he immigrated here in the 80′s and eventually opened up his own business.

This is what happens when the government taxes business to the point where they move off shore.

simkeith on April 17, 2012 at 4:54 PM

The point was that people have to stop voting for crony-capitalists if they want America to get better and their lives to improve.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 4:24 PM

Dunno, there’s a fine line between what we would consider crony capitalists and just plain old capitalists. If they can make a buck without going to jail, they’re going to do it. If government and legal loopholes can help, they’ll do it.

Seems the most powerful corporations are run either by Socialists or just plain greedy folks who would gladly demolish one company if it were easier and more profitable than trying to expand it, and then go on to another.

The dreamers, innovators and those captains of industry who took joy in creating something great out of nothing are, for the most part, long gone. A hundred years ago the government did what it could to help these men succeed…I feel that these same measures have come back to haunt us through the less worthy modern successors who have created little to nothing themselves.

Where’s the guy working out of his garage, or down in the mail room of a company who will outcompete Bill Gates or Sam Walton? The only new successful competitors are those who already have a large company, money and connections (Rupert Murdoch for example).

When companies can stay on top for multiple decades with lackluster products, poor to middling customer satisfaction, mediocre and unimaginative corporate leadership and so on, don’t tell me that free enterprise was thriving until Obumbo got elected.

I know how it’s supposed to work, but I sometimes wonder if many of us on the right are as enamored with theory as the Socialists and Liberals are on the left.

Dr. ZhivBlago on April 17, 2012 at 4:58 PM

All of a sudden, highly educated children of immigrants are transplanting themselves to their ancestral (developing) countries….

Tina Korbe

If that’s where there loyalties lie then they should never have been here to begin with. This is a country not an economic opportunity.

DFCtomm on April 17, 2012 at 5:02 PM

theblackcommenter

I’m not sure your comment about the immigrants of yesteryear would have gone home being true. In those days, people valued liberty and other abstract principles. Sure, they were worried about financial realities, but they had higher notions of what a good life was. That’s why so many who were successful stayed, and you can hear their grandkids talk it up, how grandpa and grandma loved America and beat it into their brains that this country is tops.

A lot of the people coming in now come from countries that not only have no history of freedom or equality, but whose philosophies and literature betray no such aspirations.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 5:03 PM

Immigration isn’t “invasion’, unless you’re talking about the white man’s arrival on the continent…though eradication would be a more fitting word. Either way, you’re crazy, and I hope those Muslims give you grief for the rest of your life.

ernesto

Really a quite shallow but widely held outlook. You must be quite popular in your sphere.

At any rate, these student visitors do not come here to study art history or ethnic studies. Those foreign parents are not spending good money to send their kids to the US to learn the ins and outs of being a human resources generalist or become indoctrinated to left-zombie-think in a psychology department. Close the liberal arts diploma mills and the problem goes away. American kids will either study something useful or go straight to the barista training sessions from high school, allowing them, like their NBA counterparts, to get full value from three-four more years in the workforce. Haven’t we passed the tipping point where a business (college) that promotes and sells completely worthless certificates is perpetrating a fraud?

And the flip side of the question here, the reverse part. Isn’t the hook there the question of “Why don’t these people want to stay here in the land of liberty and prosperity once they’ve gotten a taste?” No. Because it’s not that anymore. Used to be. But now there are other areas of the world where liberty and prosperity are on the upswing. Not here.

curved space on April 17, 2012 at 5:03 PM

why do these immigrants hate diversity!!!!1!1!1

joeindc44 on April 17, 2012 at 5:04 PM

Greater wealth in the world does not necessarily come at our expense, and further development of other countries is a good thing. If a twenty-something comes here, pays tuition for a bachelor’s and a master’s, and then can then help his own country to be more effective in using resources, more honest in their government, or more respectful of women’s rights, then we haven’t lost anything, while our trading-partners (current or potential) will be both better off and in a better condition to work with us in mutually beneficial dealing. (They can learn from our successes – and from our shortcomings!)

Tzetzes on April 17, 2012 at 5:05 PM

Educate native-born Americans so we don’t need so many aliens, and then perhaps a 10 or 15 year moratorium on immigration to allow for that all-important, but never mentioned process, ASSIMILATION.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 4:06 PM

I suppose technically immigrants are aliens prior to obtaining citizenship but hopefully not that many people think of them in such a pejorative way. Even very conservative sites will often define immigrants and aliens differently, one swearing allegiance to the US and the latter doesn’t. My dad was an immigrant (may he rest in peace) and it saddens me to think there are people who think this way.

Anyone that comes here illegally, boot them out. No amnesty. We want law-followers and go-getters. ANyone, regardless of origin, without any limits.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 4:43 PM

This I agree with! :-)

DoubleClutchin on April 17, 2012 at 5:07 PM

We need American-grown experts, and we have the universities. We just need a culture that doesn’t make villains out of professionally successful men.

Transpo on April 17, 2012 at 4:22 PM

This.

Ward Cleaver on April 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Daniel Hannan recently had a good one-minute speech about the psychological effect of bogus “asylum” claims versus honest and legal immigration.

Tzetzes on April 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM

DoubleClutchin

My grandmother was a LEGAL alien. If I move to Britain, I’m the alien. (Wow. That didn’t hurt!) IIRC, ‘alien’ comes from a Latin word meaning ‘other’ or ‘another’. I guess the ‘pejorative’ nature of the word comes from extreme sensitivity. At any rate, until they assimilate, they are aliens, literally. They are from ‘another’ culture.

I’m sorry you’re so easily offended. The pervasiveness of such easily offended sensibilities is a testament to the sucess of the liberal social project.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM

simkeith on April 17, 2012 at 4:54 PM

Yep. Indian-Americans are noticing the same thing. Things are booming back in Bharat.

Christien on April 17, 2012 at 5:15 PM

sorry

‘success’

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 5:15 PM

The economies where these folks are from are beginning to take off, so why wouldn’t they want to go back home where their families are, and grow along with their own economies?

Ward Cleaver on April 17, 2012 at 5:16 PM

When businesses here can import skills someone else has paid for cheaper than cultivating them here guess which they’ll do?

Speakup on April 17, 2012 at 5:16 PM

theblackcommenter on April 17, 2012 at 4:52 PM

Good points. Also, it’s hard for many who come from closed, high-context societies to make the transition to an open, low-context society like America. Quite understandable, from an intercultural perspective, and many end up with a wicked case of encapsulated cultural marginality as a result.

Christien on April 17, 2012 at 5:19 PM

If you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, this is what you get. In order to break the cycle of corruption, to dismantle the one party system, you have to vote against the party, which means you have to vote for the guy that seems to know more than anybody else but they tell you that he is a clown because he is a threat to the crony-capitalist, one-party system.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 3:50 PM

For chrissake, you picked a wrong thread to hawk in. I do like Ron Paul and value his economic message greatly, but he is awful on immigration. Isolationism (okay, alleged isolationism) does not match well with open-borders policies.

Archivarix on April 17, 2012 at 5:20 PM

Considering the alimony laws we have here I don’t blame them for going back home.

hanzblinx on April 17, 2012 at 5:26 PM

Ward Cleaver said:

The economies where these folks are from are beginning to take off…

That is the way it is supposed to be. In some places, it is much better than when they were growing up. The markets are emerging in these areas, which is a good thing, and they will be there to contribute.

Fleuries on April 17, 2012 at 5:59 PM

This would kill much of the productive work being done in the US. H1B immigrants are not brought here because employers have a fetish for immigrants, it’s because there aren’t enough qualified workers here.
ernesto on April 17, 2012 at 4:15 PM

Sorry but the facts simply dont bear this out. H1B visas are a boondoggel for corporations. Milton Freidman said so in 2001
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/72848/H_1B_Is_Just_Another_Gov_t._Subsidy

Need to raise the bar not lower the expectations.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 5:59 PM

Thread is about reverse brain drain…priceless

Bradky on April 17, 2012 at 4:32 PM

Any chance you could check the spelling on PPAA aka Obamacare? Seems that spelling is far more important than ideas to you.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 6:03 PM

I’m sorry you’re so easily offended. The pervasiveness of such easily offended sensibilities is a testament to the sucess of the liberal social project.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 5:14 PM

LOL, no, not everything is about politics. My sensitive sensibility is just due to good old fashioned grief, hence my over reaction to your comment.

On the other hand, if I had called my dad an alien (even with all the logical Latin meanings of words argument), he would have bopped me upside the head. :-)

DoubleClutchin on April 17, 2012 at 6:03 PM

Yeah but, lucky us, we get to keep the illegals!

MaiDee on April 17, 2012 at 6:09 PM

Your reasoning skills are outdone by your spelling ability.
itsnotaboutme on April 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM

They came on a foreign student visa
They connected with a terrorist family to pay for their education
They got stoned on the upper west side of Manhattan
They got a free pass into the most prestigious of law schools
They conned America in thinking they were like them
Now you cant see their grades
You cant see their adoption records
You cant see what their applications for license and school looked like
You cant know where their from
But you damm well know that they’re ruining this country.
And so you lurk on conservative blog site
To find a misspelling or tow
All the while your country decends
Into the pithole they left.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 6:19 PM

For instance: we had an exchange student with us for a few months from a certain South Asian emerging economy. Very smart. Spake mo’ better English than me (book English anyhoo.) His mother was pressing him to research as many US colleges as possible while here. He is definitely coming back after HS to study and stated as much in no uncertain terms. Very popular, funny kid and outgoing. Made a splash in the school play, but when he comes back you can bet he won’t study theater. Excellent researcher but he won’t return here to be a scholar. No, aspiring to a life of the permanent student is probably a completely alien concept back home. A very good writer but will he come back here to squander four years in some journalism school wasteland? Surely you jest. No. He told us what he will take up in whatever US college he chooses on his return: robotics. If you have that would there be any incentive for you to stay here in the US? You’d be stupid not to go where they’re still allowed to manufacture stuff. No, that brain will reverse drain for sure. More power to him. Meanwhile our smart and talented exchange daughter is over in Europe going to museums and drinking beer. She wants to be an artist. Except for the beer part, where did we go wrong?! ;)

curved space on April 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM

Bzzzzt.

“If that’s where there loyalties lie then they should never have been here to begin with. This is a country not an economic opportunity.

DFCtomm on April 17, 2012 at 5:02 PM”

With all due respect, all a country is is an area where the people have chosen to live by certain rules and conventions. That’s all. If you live in a location with rules that stifle your creativity, your faith, your opportunity to become all that you dream of being, then you have a moral obligation to find a new place to be where you can grow to be your best self.

People die every day to try to create the best possible country in the world, but there are now a vast number of people who undermine those sacrifices. As much as I love this country – MY country -, as the day swiftly approaches where I fear for my family’s safety FROM the United States Govt., I am much less critical of those who determine their best chance for freedom and success is elsewhere.

It is easy to SAY and perhaps even BELIEVE we’re not an opportunity, but at the core of everything that we were founded on, this was exactly what we are. We have been, for two centuries, the greatest opportunity to realize one’s greatest potential to ever exist on this planet.

Sadly, ignorant fools and maleficent bigots have divided us so utterly and completely that it becomes hard to remember all the great goodness inherent in the principles of our founding. So long as we create laws that attack and divide based on flesh-tone, religion, wealth, gender and sexuality – all in the name of ‘protecting’ said stupidities – we will be continuing on this Obamaic path to tyranny.

How does anyone criticize a person in America today for giving up and trying to find a safer, less noxious, more open place to live create a life?

Art outside the liberal orthodoxy is attacked. Religion is attacked. Wealth creation is attacked. Race is attacked. Daily. What about the word ‘nation’ makes any of that acceptable and worth suffering for?

The full weight and fury of the US Govt. now bears down on any who would argue against it and the watchmen of the 4th estate no longer watch.

I am not without hope, but I can see how people are finding their way to that horrifying place where they are. I am optimistic that we can find our way back, but I can not chastize those who say we can not.

Obamastic Evil is abound, and it is time to acknowledge it.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM

DoubleClutchin

forgive me for not thinking. I was an idiot. I am very sorry. My condolences.

And you have my hat off and my respect for your classy response.

(I guess I betrayed a sensitivity of my own, making my own point.)

If we ever meet, please bop me upside the head.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 6:53 PM

Bingo. These so called “immigrants” aren’t the Ellis Island and prior type. They don’t give a damn about this country, its culture or its history.

TxAnn56 on April 17, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Wow, the truth in writing. I entered this country legally at the end of 1997 and became a citizen at the end of 2004. I paid for my university degree with cash money and have never asked for a handout the entire time I have been here.

I love this country, I would die for this country, I hate seeing what is happening to this country and want to stay here and try and fix it

But it sure is nice to see how some of you really feel about us immigrants who came here because this is the best country in world. Yes, some of us still talk with that heavy Eastern European accent and are sometimes ignored. I always thought maybe it was because you couldn’t understand us even though many of us spend countless hours doing speech therapy in order to fit in better.

I guess I was wrong, from reading these comments, you really don’t like us after all.

JPeterman on April 17, 2012 at 6:56 PM

WashingtonsWake

Your idea of country is very narcissistic.

‘Best self’….

Funny. I was raised thinking I should put my country above self. I didn’t know that the country existed for me, to make me happy and make me better.

This being a narcissistic country, I guess a lot of people think this way.

And THAT’S why we’re in the crapper.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 6:58 PM

JPeterman,

sorry if my comments contributed to your feelings on this topic. As I clarified above, much earlier, there are people like you. But you’re an American now. You’ve assimilated. And for every American of foreign origin like yourself, I meet plenty of self-described temporary residents like the ones we’re talking about.

You are the Ellis Island kind. You want to be here, and you have assimilated. Your accent is just one among many (Southern, Northern, Midwestern, and, in your case, far eastern.)

Indeed, I have more respect for you than I do many of my native-born compatriots. Many of them wouldn’t say what you did about dying for this country.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 7:03 PM

Republicans should become the party of “Open the Borders to ANYONE that wants to follow the law” If you show up on the border, and you have no criminal record, and want to make a life in the states, here’s a green card, go get a job or create a business.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Bad idea. What if 300 million Marxists move here? What if 30 million desperate Chinese men looking for wives move here, do you really want to import the consequences of China’s problems? I don’t think you’ve thought this through very carefully, this is not the Good Ship Lollypop we live in or some Utopian fantasy, this is the real world, and the real has a lot of crappy people in it that we don’t want here.

FloatingRock on April 17, 2012 at 7:11 PM

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 6:53 PM

:-D

DoubleClutchin on April 17, 2012 at 7:23 PM

America needs to turn off the immigration tap. The way to get the talented people you need is to develop them from American-born Americans, not to import “talented” foreigners to replace Americans.

Americans proved plenty talented before 1965 and the era of mass immigration. Americans can prove talented again if they are not crowded out.

David Blue on April 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM

America is exactly as it’s been called. It’s a proposition nation. It has proven in the past to have been able to bring together, bind and assimilate disparate peoples better than any other nation. It, of course, offered opportunity. That is part of the proposition, but it didn’t assimilate these groups with economic opportunities it did it with the ideals on which America is based, and if all this country is to you is an economic opportunity then we don’t need you.

DFCtomm on April 17, 2012 at 7:55 PM

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 7:03 PM

Damage done. I guess it’s easier for one(not just you but all that commented in this thread of their disdain for us) to make their real feelings known under the anonymity of the internet.

And for the record, I’ve taken no job from any “real” American’s as I am self employed/free lance and my entire family is still in Eastern Europe reads HA every day. I’ve got to wonder what they may be thinking right now.

This thread was a real eye opener :(

JPeterman on April 17, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Well JPeterman

you’re entitled to feel that way.

God Bless you anyway.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Americans proved plenty talented before 1965 and the era of mass immigration. Americans can prove talented again if they are not crowded out.

David Blue on April 17, 2012 at 7:36 PM

+1. And nuts to the whinoids who keep piping up “but…but…they can’t find talent in America!” Bull! You can’t throw a rock without hitting an unemployed person these days!

If you “can’t” find someone it’s because the conditions/work stinks on toast and what you want to pay doesn’t match up to it. Find a solution besides always going to peasant labor that can’t complain about being treated like cr@p!

MelonCollie on April 17, 2012 at 8:19 PM

The fear of the ‘flood’ – I believe – holds us back. I don’t think it’s realistic or reasonable. I accept that it is possible, but I do not accept that it would happen as described.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 8:30 PM

America doesn’t ‘need’ anyone. We need America. The fact it is dying – or more to the point, being murdered – at the hands of evil men and women using the instruments of her creation against her is a unthinkably sad.

If you believe that any nation is anything other than a set of rules determining what opportunity is available, I guess we have to agree to disagree. A nation, any nation, is always much less important than the individual lives being lived within it. We preserve nations with our lives when they perserve our freedom to pursue our happiness with the greatest possible liberty. Once the nation infringes on the individuals right to pursue happiness, the life they choose, and the freedom to believe as they wish, then that nation has no right to loyalty.

I am not saying I believe America is there yet – but it is headed in that direction. And, I can understand why there are people who believe it is no longer a nation worth perserving. You don’t see me leaving, but if OBama wins a second term, I would have have to seriously consider the option of flight from political persecution and subjugation.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 8:38 PM

And for the record, I’ve taken no job from any “real” American’s as I am self employed/free lance and my entire family is still in Eastern Europe reads HA every day. I’ve got to wonder what they may be thinking right now.

This thread was a real eye opener :(

JPeterman on April 17, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Looks like you picked up liberal grievance-mongering and whining along with your AMERICAN university degree. Acting like an ungrateful brat just proves the point made by conservatives in this thread. Current generation immigrants don’t make the effort to assimilate, don’t show gratitude, and are mainly looking to freeload and get handouts.

sauldalinsky on April 17, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Acting like an ungrateful brat just proves the point made by conservatives in this thread.
sauldalinsky on April 17, 2012 at 8:40 PM

How exactly am I a spoiled brat?

JPeterman on April 17, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Do you suppose these immigrants realize better than most what liberals are doing to America?

Roy Rogers on April 17, 2012 at 3:53 PM

The South Africans, Russians, Nigerians, and Eastern Euros do. This, I know for sure.

WeekendAtBernankes on April 17, 2012 at 8:58 PM

for the record, the 1965 act which opened up the immigration laws did not come close to opening it up as much as it had been in the 19th century. The immigrants per thousand of population has remained very average since then around 3 per 1000. THere were many points in our history when we were MUCH higher than that. And it was only in the years between about 1910 and 1965 where we stayed below that for any extended period of time. We have sustained ‘floods’ of upwards of 5x that rate several times and we were ok.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 9:03 PM

America is not a “proposition nation”. There’s no such thing.

America is a nation with a cohesive population, or it’s an empire that will eventually break up.

The cohesion of a healthy nation can be undermined, and that has happened. The cohesion of an unhealthy nation can be healed, and that has to happen.

The way to restore national cohesion is to develop the talents of your own people. Make them winners in future, as they were before the fashion for replacing and displacing them came in.

Don’t bring in foreigners to replace your own supposedly untalented people. That’s a road to national disintegration.

And it’s idiotic in America, which was abundant in talent from its earliest days. The quality of thought of the founding fathers alone is enough to show that.

David Blue on April 17, 2012 at 9:11 PM

America is been an immigrant nation from the beginning. The cohesion is much later and questionable. We are at our best when we allow anyone who shares the desire to make the most of themselves in. Trying to ‘limit that’ to protect some non-existent cohesion and culture is reminiscent of the no-nothings.

WashingtonsWake on April 17, 2012 at 9:31 PM

I say good riddence.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 4:12 PM

Your reasoning skills are outdone by your spelling ability.

The US is a nation of immigrants & their descendants.

Perhaps nicknack is a bitter aboriginal American (commonly known as Indian)…?

itsnotaboutme on April 17, 2012 at 4:16 PM

They came on a foreign student visa
They connected with a terrorist family to pay for their education
They got stoned on the upper west side of Manhattan
They got a free pass into the most prestigious of law schools
They conned America in thinking they were like them
Now you cant see their grades
You cant see their adoption records
You cant see what their applications for license and school looked like
You cant know where their from
But you damm well know that they’re ruining this country.
And so you lurk on conservative blog site
To find a misspelling or tow
All the while your country decends
Into the pithole they left.

nicknack60 on April 17, 2012 at 6:19 PM

(emphasis mine)

Legal immigrants are in large measure building this country.

Are you racist?
Did you not pay attention in spelling class because your excellent teacher had lovely dark skin?

My legal immigrant parents & legal immigrant wife would beg to differ with your wild-eyed rant.

itsnotaboutme on April 17, 2012 at 9:34 PM

How exactly am I a spoiled brat?

JPeterman on April 17, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Because you took general (and true) comments about immigrants in general and turned them into an outrageous outrage all about your feeling being hurt, then followed the lefty playbook of implying that conservatives are xenophobic.

sauldalinsky on April 17, 2012 at 9:36 PM

…I can’t decide, nicknack60, whether you are Aboriginal American (AKA Indian) or Caucasian (AKA White).
Your scribbles seem to be entirely anti-immigrant, which would logically make you the former, but logic doesn’t seem to be one of your strengths.
You may very well be White & entirely unaware that your ancestors were immigrants.
Please inform us, nicknack60.

itsnotaboutme on April 17, 2012 at 9:38 PM

Washingtonswake

Again, that’s a very selfish and frankly, drab view of what a nation is. I stand by what I said, that such a notion in the minds of a preponderence of citizens will destroy this country. Frankly, people with such cheaply bought loyalty are shameful compatriots. I prefer the company of people like JPeterman and if he has friends or family back home like him, I hope he encourages them here. Perhaps the booming economies abroad will draw fair weather Americans there. I hope they stay for good. Like you said, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

As for your contention that the cohesion came after, that’s wrong. Look up the term ‘homonoia’. Then look at the early history of America. It was largely English, and the culture was largely English. So much so, that a number of British at the time of the revolution regarded the revolutionaries as defenders of traditional English values. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence reads like a summary of traditional English rights reaching back to before the Magna Carta and reasserting the outcome of the great 17th century struggle between Parliament and Monarchs aspiring to Absolutism.) Of course, making such assertions now in this wonderfully pluralistic and multicultural environment and society is racist, I suppose. (I thought race and culture were two different things, but hey, who knows?) I’m not sure all of the ideas from other cultures and all the new perspectives was all that good for the country. Now with very different cultures and religions (particularly ChiCom and Muslim Middle Easterners), I think this is even more so.

avgjo on April 17, 2012 at 10:25 PM

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