Dershowitz: The charging instrument filed against George Zimmerman is “unethical” and will never make it past a judge

posted at 9:05 pm on April 12, 2012 by Allahpundit

Four and a half minutes of brutal criticism for prosecutor Angela Corey, whom he accuses straight-out of grandstanding for political gain. It’ll take you 30 seconds to read the entire charging instrument but I’ll save you 20 and post the critical bit:

Second-degree murder under Florida law is defined as:

The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual

Dershowitz’s point: There’s nothing in the charging instrument that suggests probable cause to believe Zimmerman had a “depraved mind regardless of human life” when he shot Martin. On the contrary, he notes, the facts as stated are consistent with self-defense. (Tellingly, there’s also no reference to Zimmerman’s injuries.) The prosecution can amend the affidavit to strengthen its case if the judge throws it out, but then you’re left wondering why they didn’t submit a more detailed affidavit in the first place.

I don’t understand Corey’s strategy in charging him with murder two. Maybe she thinks Zimmerman will plead to a lesser charge, but if it’s anything less than manslaughter she’s going to take tremendous heat for having gone too easy on him. That’s a weird predicament for a politically-minded prosecutor to put herself in. She’ll take some heat even if she gets him to cop to manslaughter, in fact, since manslaughter is a crime of simple negligence and people who want him prosecuted believe Zimmerman’s far more morally culpable than that. (This is all assuming he’d be willing to make a deal, which, given the weakness of the charging instrument, he probably isn’t.) In fact, I also don’t get why she insisted on filing an affidavit of probable cause instead of taking the case to a grand jury. If they refused to indict him, she could have blamed them for him getting off and claimed she’d given it her best effort. As it is, if Dershowitz is right, her own affidavit’s about to be tossed by a judge and then she’ll have to answer for why she couldn’t even get to first base on a conviction.

Maybe her plan is to use the judge here as a get-out-of-tough-cases card? She probably knows she can’t get Zimmerman on murder two, but she also doesn’t want to be the one to have to break that to the public. She also doesn’t want to have to try to prosecute him on murder two if the evidence isn’t there, which would be a risk if the grand jury did indict him. So instead she’s taking the middle path: Go directly to the judge with a weak charging instrument and rely on him/her to throw it out. Then come back with a new affidavit listing a lesser charge — manslaughter or murder three — and say that she has no choice but to prosecute Zimmerman under that because the court stymied her on murder two. I’ll be curious to see what the fact pattern in those affidavits looks like because, frankly, if it’s as thin as the excerpt I posted up top, I’m not sure she’ll get the court to sign off on those charges either.

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vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:27 PM

There was NO witness till the fight broke out. SHow me one.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:28 PM

No, I said thats what could of happened. I never said thats what did happen. Noone knows.

That’s why you can’t charge someone with murder.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:28 PM

He did not make it to the house before being confronted by Zimmerman.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:13 PM

He was within a few yards of the house. Yet, he circled around to attack GZ almost a hundred yards up the walk.

WHY DIDN’T TRAYVON THE THUG JUST GO HOME?
Could it have been that a big, strong, tough gangsta like him wasn’t gonna be “dissed” by no honkey? And he fidured GZ would be an easy mark because he was so much smaller that trayvon.
Face it, trayvon the no longer living made a very, very bad decision. And the consequence of that decision – that life choice – proved to be terminal.

Bad decisions = Bad consequences.

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 2:29 PM

There was NO witness till the fight broke out. SHow me one.

See above. There was of course Zimmerman’s real-time account to 911. Of course, that doesn’t count because you say so.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:30 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:28 PM

But thats why the police should of interviewed the girl before deciding it was not a case here.

They didnt.

As well as many other issues, they screwed it up. All the facts are not out there, and you cannot claim someone is not possibly involved in a crime unless all the evidence is out there, and the police do their job fully.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:30 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:30 PM

No one is saying that there’s no way there was a crime. Your side is insisting without evidence that there was a crime. See the difference?

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:34 PM

And once again, the girlfriend’s story, which is not credible for reasons you shouldn’t need explained, does not contradict Zimmerman’s, even if true.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:35 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:34 PM

I am not on a “side” I think for myself, and I think there is enough evidence to call into question what Zimmerman says happend, and that warrants more than no charges.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:36 PM

Zimmerman claims he was heading back to his car, yet the 911 call does not have that on tape. SO that means Zimmerman infact did not head back to his car and was still following Martin.

Pretty plain and simple.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:17 PM

Yes. It is on the 911 tape, you lying scum.

Why don’t you stop lying? You aren’t very good at it…and it just makes you look like MORE of a buffoon.
(Not to mention that it also shows that “your side” doesn’t have the truth to rely on, so you are just trying to throw crap against the wall to see if any will stick. You’re a disgrace even to the race-baiting leftists.)

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 2:36 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:35 PM

WHy is she not credible? And Zimmerman is?

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Seriously, if you were on the phone with someone just before he was shot, and he told you things that would help convict his shooter, would you come forward, or wait to be asked? On the other hand, if he told you things that indicated that he was the aggressor…

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:38 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:38 PM

SHouldnt the investigators contacted who he was on the phone with?

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Not to mention the fact that your side has revealed its complete willingness to lie, without even a hint of shame, about every known fact of the case calls her credibility into question, unless we’re to believe that she is less of a racist liar than the rest of you.

But most importantly, her claim doesn’t change anything, even if true.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:42 PM

If they’d known about it. You watch too much CSI.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:43 PM

No, I said thats what could of happened. I never said thats what did happen. Noone knows.

But since there is no witness prior to the fight other than the girl on the phone, then she is the witness that counts in this case.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:27 PM

Except that…she’s not a witness. Can she identify GZ as the one who spoke to trayvon the thug? Most resoundingly…NO!

And, as far as her being on the phone until “moments before trayvon the thug was shot…..bull! That would have meant that trayvon was fighting and talking to his gf at the same time. So…once again, you’re making things up out of whole cloth. Lying, as it were.

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 2:45 PM

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 2:45 PM

There you go, calling Trayvon a thug, why is that needed? It is completely uncalled for.

And FYI the phone records of Treyvons phone were gotten by ABCNEWS and they have the call times and details.

Something the police did not do, and they had the phone.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:48 PM

http://globalgrind.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-9-Days-Before-Death-Photo?gpage=1

The big bad football player. lol

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:50 PM

There you go, calling Trayvon a thug, why is that needed? It is completely uncalled for.

Have you seen his twitter account? Why do you keep accusing Zimmerman of stalking and murdering someone?

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:51 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:51 PM

SO what about his twitter account, many kids act stupid in their posts online, doesnt make them bad people.

Look at you all calling me racist. Doesnt make you bad people, you just like to call people names.

How is that different?

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:53 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:37 PM

Zimmerman was THERE, the girlfriend was NOT.

Seriously, my four year old can make more intelligent and cogent arguments than you.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 2:54 PM

SO what about his twitter account, many kids act stupid in their posts online, doesnt make them bad people.

I pointed out that people are calling him a thug because he acted that way in on his twitter account. Nothing more.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:54 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 2:54 PM

Zimmerman was THERE, the girlfriend was NOT.

Yes and a person who may of committed a crime would never lie to defend himself. They all tell the truth.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:55 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 2:54 PM

Look it is obvious that Martin was not there to committ a crime, EVEN IF Zimmerman was in self defense, it was a horrible tragedy that didnt need to happen, and Zimmerman used bad judgement at the least.

But that doesnt give right to disrespect the kid who is dead. How does that help any of this?

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:56 PM

They all tell the truth.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:55 PM

And the girl who thought shopping for shoes was more important than her boyfriend, she’s telling the truth?

Man you’re stupid. I hope the prosecution does put her on the stand.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 2:58 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 2:58 PM

I have yet to find anything on this “shopping for shoes” can you please point me to a link on it.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 3:00 PM

I have yet to find anything on this “shopping for shoes” can you please point me to a link on it.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 3:00 PM

Why? You’d just twist it around that shopping for shoes proved Zimmerman murdered Martin, or completely ignore it like I never posted it.

Google it yourself.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:05 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:05 PM

I want all the information, and I have googled it and can not find it.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 3:06 PM

You know Damian. I don’t have time for this. Here’s my final question for you. If the information allegedly provided by Martin’s girlfriend is credible, and establishes probable cause, why do you suppose that the prosecutor declined to include it in her Information (which, as is the point of this thread, does not provide probable cause as it currently exists)?

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM

I’ll leave you with this gentleman’s perspective on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LONUecnsMb8#!

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:10 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:08 PM

That probable cause is an outline it will be updated, as they all are, it is not the end all be all of the evidence. Everyone knows that.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 3:10 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:10 PM

I dont care about videos such as that, that brings race into it again, and I don’t condone that.

I still believe this had nothing to do with race.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 3:12 PM

archer52 on April 13, 2012 at 10:31 PM

Is that you cousin? (You sound like my cousins and their mother.)

I, and my fellow members of the State Bar of Michigan, can’t wait to see the masterpiece you’re painting with that brush, archer. ;-)

We’re not all bad. Some of us actually believe in the law and it’s why we still have what little Constitution we do. I’d ask that you keep that in mind before labeling us incompetent, unethical, money-grubbing ambulance-chasers, okay? Thanks.

totherightofthem on April 14, 2012 at 3:22 PM

That probable cause is an outline it will be updated, as they all are, it is not the end all be all of the evidence. Everyone knows that.

No, in fact, those of us with legal training know that if that document doesn’t allege probable cause the case will be dismissed (though the state can always refile). Stop basing your claims on what “everyone knows,” get your facts straight, and come back.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:25 PM

get your facts straight, and come back.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:25 PM

If he was concerned about getting facts straight, he would have gone and never came back long ago.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:28 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:25 PM

I have a legal question – Dershowitz states that the filing against Zimmerman is “unethical”, is it, and is there a possibility of sanctions against Corey for issuing it?

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:41 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:41 PM

Yes. But in my understanding it takes a pretty flagrant violation (think Duke Lacrosse) to make anything substantial happen.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:43 PM

You can call someone an idiot when you’ve learned to spell “you’re.”

You are a demented, lying racist. Go away.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 1:22 PM

No. He can call someone an idiot WHEN HE STOPS SAYING COULD OF, WOULD OF, SHOULD OF and begins to repair the English language by using the proper phrasing and placing the word have after could, should or would, dammit!

totherightofthem on April 14, 2012 at 3:46 PM

totherightofthem on April 14, 2012 at 3:46 PM

Baby steps…

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:48 PM

Google it yourself.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:05 PM

She doesn’t know the gf’s name…and I’m not helping her. It is still there. I thought it would be yanked by now.

Blake on April 14, 2012 at 4:08 PM

Baby steps…

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 3:48 PM

:-) He’s making my head hurt. I’ve never, and I mean never, in my 25 year career as a litigating attorney, been witness to such incredible examples of dissembling and mendacity as I have reading damian, bileduct and zippitydooda. Damian, however, is at the top of the leader board in that respect.

Only your second year in law school? Go get ‘em! You’re going to be very successful.

totherightofthem on April 14, 2012 at 4:13 PM

Damian…something for you to think about since you’re sure Martin was a good, innocent kid and Zimmerman was a delusional wannabe cop. If Martin was concerned for his safety because Zimmerman was “stalking” him, why didn’t he call the police instead of talking with his girlfriend?

ajsleepy on April 14, 2012 at 4:14 PM

Seriously. I’ve seen hundreds of liars during my career. I’ve been responsible for proving them liars (I love cross-examination), but even they had the grace to back down when confronted by the fact that I knew they were lying and everyone else knew it too. They didn’t actually come clean, but they at least shut up.

The whole point of this thread was to illustrate the poor quality of the information submitted by Corey in charging GZ with 2nd degree murder. She’d better hope that GZ doesn’t become one of Dershowitz’ pro bono projects, that’s all I can say.

totherightofthem on April 14, 2012 at 4:18 PM

…and I won’t even try to correct you on what “evidence” the police should consider. Your mind has obviously been warped by tv and movies on proper procedure. And you don’t seem concerned that certain facts and evidence were left out of Zimmerman’s affidavit anyway.

ajsleepy on April 14, 2012 at 4:19 PM

ajsleepy on April 14, 2012 at 4:14 PM

Good question, ask him… Oh Wait, you can’t, he was killed.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 4:34 PM

I am not saying what Zimmerman has been going through is right or wrong, what I am saying is all of the people calling Martin a Punk, Gangster, Drug User and so on is out of control. There is no respect for this tragic event that has cost the life of a 17 year old.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:00 PM

???????????????????

No Zimmerman is guilty
damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 12:24 PM

guilty
damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Your boy, down down down
damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 1:58 AM

Your boy is going down
damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 1:52 AM

Dreadnought on April 14, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 2:29 PM

You claim he was within a few yards of the house? Try 70 yards, thats not a few!

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 5:03 PM

Dreadnought on April 14, 2012 at 4:43 PM

Did I call Zimmerman one name? No.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 5:04 PM

I have a legal question – Dershowitz states that the filing against Zimmerman is “unethical”, is it, and is there a possibility of sanctions against Corey for issuing it?

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 3:41 PM

I think Dersh is speaking in a rhetorical sense, that he believes that a prosecutor who overcharges a defendant in order to scare up a plea bargain is acting unethically.

Well then. I think had Dersh spent more time in local courthouses he would find that over-charging is standard op by prosecutors.

BigAlSouth on April 14, 2012 at 5:16 PM

I think Dersh is speaking in a rhetorical sense, that he believes that a prosecutor who overcharges a defendant in order to scare up a plea bargain is acting unethically.

BigAlSouth on April 14, 2012 at 5:16 PM

I disagree.

If there is no evidence to support a charge, or any charge really, arresting and putting someone in jail for political reasons is exceeding unethical, if not criminal.

A lot of folks seem to think arresting someone and putting them in jail for weeks or even years on flimsy to no evidence is no big deal. It is a huge deal, the man is now out of work, his family has no means of support, and he’s likely to be saddled with debt until the day he dies.

This is a huge concern for people who conceal carry for self protection – that even if they are 100% in the right, they’re going to have to go through what Zimmerman is right now.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Too bad, if your going to conceal and carry, then you need to be able to use good judgement, Zimmerman did not, now he pays for it.

A LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN CONCEAL AND CARRY LAWS!

If this were not to be investigated, other people will use the same defense to murder people, you guys don’t get it.

If this goes without proper investigation and making sure a young kid died for just cause, others will use the same defense arguement to kill people they want to.

This is a big deal.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:09 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Any by the way, even if he gets off this, he will lose the wrongful death suit that is sure to come.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:12 PM

I know your precious gun laws are so important to you. And any life is worth protecting them. You guys just don’t care so long as it meets your political agenda.

Then it’s all good, but if it were your kid you would not be thinking the same.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 5:57 PM

The lawyer said he was not taking money for this case, so he is not saddled with debt. Keep lieing.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:17 PM

Too bad, if your going to conceal and carry, then you need to be able to use good judgement, Zimmerman did not, now he pays for it.

A LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN CONCEAL AND CARRY LAWS!

So, Zimmerman was supposed to let Martin crush his head on that sidewalk? Bull. If it was me, I’d have emptied my clip into Martin, and slept like a baby after.

Any by the way, even if he gets off this, he will lose the wrongful death suit that is sure to come.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:12 PM

Wrong, when the judge throws this nonsense out, Zimmerman will have complete immunity from civil suits.

Go back and read my last link, numbnuts.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:19 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:19 PM

Umm, no. He has no immunity from a civil suit.

Only “IF” Stand your ground is acceptable, any other course he will be subject to a wrongful death suit.

And Stand Your Ground seems not to be the case for him according to the people who wrote the bill.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:25 PM

Several keys points. First, the threat must be deadly. It’s not just that someone punched you in the face. You must be threatened with force sufficient to kill you or cause massive bodily harm, or a similar forcible felony (such as rape).

Second, it’s not enough that the victim believes he is under a deadly threat. His belief must also be reasonable, meaning that under the circumstances an objective observer would likewise conclude the victim could be killed or severely injured.

Third, SYG only protects victims; it does not apply to attackers. If you’re attacking someone, you cannot claim SYG as a defense for what follows.

And fourth, it doesn’t apply if you cannot retreat. If retreat is not an option, then the situation is governed by ordinary self-defense laws, not SYG laws.

Under any version of the facts, Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law did not apply in the Trayvon Martin incident. If Zimmerman pursued a confrontation with Martin, then Zimmerman was an attacker and cannot claim SYG. If Zimmerman’s account is true that he was on the ground and Martin was on top of him, then retreat was impossible, so there would be no duty to retreat anyway. A victim in such a situation can use deadly force, but only if he reasonably believes he is being attacked with deadly force.

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/stand-your-ground-laws-do-not-apply-in-the-martin-zimmerman-incident/

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Baxley wrote an op-ed article published by Fox News. In the op-ed Baxley wrote, “There is nothing in the castle doctrine as found in Florida statutes that authenticates or provides for the opportunity to pursue and confront individuals, it simply protects those who would be potential victims by allowing for force to be used in self-defense.”

Peaden reportedly told the Miami Herald that the law does not apply to shooter George Zimmerman because he followed the child. Peadon told the newspaper that the moment Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher that he was following the boy that he lost any defense under the Stand Your Ground law.

http://gantdaily.com/2012/03/22/florida-lawmakers-behind-stand-your-ground-law-says-it-does-not-apply-to-george-zimmerman/

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:32 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:28 PM

You keep up with this fantasy that Zimmerman was the aggressor – there isn’t a shred of evidence for it, if there was it would have gone to the grand jury.

And when it’s determined to be a case of legitimate self defense, he will indeed be immune from civil suits.

Once again, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:32 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Do you agree with this, because the portion you quoted is almost exactly what many on “our side” have been saying since this thread started?

You really are incredibly stupid, aren’t you?

JannyMae on April 14, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:32 PM

You do not read too well, that doesn’t matter. As soon as he told the 911 operator he was following him, he lost the SYG defense. And unless he somehow is able to get off on SYG then he is on the hook for a wrongful death suit.

EVERY legal person acknowledges this.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:35 PM

JannyMae on April 14, 2012 at 6:34 PM

No I do not agree with it, but if you go by the facts of what was said on the 911 and Zimmerman alone, he does not qualify for SYG defense.

Try reading:

it doesn’t apply if you cannot retreat. If retreat is not an option, then the situation is governed by ordinary self-defense laws, not SYG laws.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:38 PM

You do not read too well, that doesn’t matter. As soon as he told the 911 operator he was following him, he lost the SYG defense. And unless he somehow is able to get off on SYG then he is on the hook for a wrongful death suit.

EVERY legal person acknowledges this.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:35 PM

Only if he followed with the intent of causing harm, for which there is no evidence. No evidence. The judge is going to throw this abortion of a case out, if the DA appeals then they are utter fools.

And as long as it was legitimate self defense, he is immune to civil suits, in fact that protection was built into the law for exactly this purpose.

Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. There is no payday for anyone except perhaps Zimmerman, who can charge NBC and the rest of the MSM vultures for slander and liable.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:40 PM

LOL Read the law, it does not say anything about with the intent of causing harm, you are reaching, the people who wrote the bill said it did not apply to him.

You know more than the people who wrote the bill? I dont think so.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:42 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Wrong again, go read the laws, self defense alone does NOT make you immune from civil suits, only if SYG is applied and works.

You are completely wrong.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:43 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:38 PM

That is exactly what we have been saying in this thread. This is pure self-defense, based on the evidence. Stand your ground does not apply in this case. Zimmerman was on the ground, getting his head beaten on the concrete, and he shot Martin to save his own life. Self. Defense.

You are just figuring this out, now?

JannyMae on April 14, 2012 at 6:44 PM

And FYI the phone records of Treyvons phone were gotten by ABCNEWS and they have the call times and details.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 2:48 PM

So, you’re saying that trayvon was talking on the phone and fighting at the same time.

And yet…hearing a fight for his very life in progress (which ended in a gunshot)his loving girl friend didn’t bother to try to call him back — or call the police.

I guess she had to go shoe-shopping.

Priorities, you know.

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 6:45 PM

First, as neighborhood watch captain, Mr. Zimmerman should have known Martin’s identity. The young man was staying with his father and his father’s fiancée. The couple were residents in the community, and this was not young Martin’s first visit. If there is any value to a neighborhood watch program, it is in their ability to be aware of events and people in the community. Mr. Zimmerman was negligent in his duties as watch captain if he was unaware of Mr. Martin’s status in the community.

Second, Mr. Zimmerman should have followed the direction of 911 operators when he was asked not to pursue or confront the “suspicious person” he reported. There is no legal requirement that a person obey the instructions of 911 operators, but the instructions do establish a “reasonable person” standard. Violation of the reasonable person standard is often considered the definition of negligence.

Finally, Mr. Zimmerman was negligent in either being unaware of, or deliberately violating, the guidelines for Neighborhood Watch published by the National Sheriffs’ Association’s USAonWatch, which oversees more than 20,000 watch programs across the country, though not the one in which Mr. Zimmerman participated. He violated the guidelines on a number of points. The guidelines explicitly state, “It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles.” The guidelines also clearly give instructions that would have prevented the fatal confrontation: “Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous.” Finally, the manual lists examples of suspicious behavior that would justify a call to police. This includes conduct such as “someone seen peering into car windows,” but in the 911 call, Mr. Zimmerman just reports a person on the street. Although “a stranger loitering in the neighborhood” is listed as suspicious, Mr. Martin should not have been considered a stranger.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Damian,

Here again is what the lead investigator on the case had to say about it:

“The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event. Everything I have is adding up to what he says.”

Where is your evidence that he is wrong?

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Wrong again, go read the laws, self defense alone does NOT make you immune from civil suits, only if SYG is applied and works.

You are completely wrong.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:43 PM

Once again, you are wrong:

The Legislature finds that it is proper for law-abiding people to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action for acting in defense of themselves and others.

~Ch. 2005-27 at 200, Laws of Florida

Any legitimate act of self defense gives immunity from civil suits. That’s the real law, not your make believe crap from your nonsense hole.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:48 PM

JannyMae on April 14, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Even “IF” and thats a big “IF” it was pure self defense, and even if what is said is true that Martin was the agressor, Zimmerman did not sustain any major harm that would warrant the death of Martin.

Plain and simple, it was over the top, even going by what you all claim to have happend without knowing the full scope of the evidence.

And it shows that by Zimmerman walking with no problem into the police station, there was NO life threatening injuries to justify killing someone.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:48 PM

Then why do lawyers say it would not hold up in court? only if SYG works as a defense, otherwise

However, even if police do not end up pursuing murder charges against George Zimmerman, the family should pursue a wrongful death lawsuit. Although self defense would bar a civil tort according to Florida law, it is unlikely to hold up based on the evidence I have seen. And there are several points of negligence on which Mr. Zimmerman could be held responsible for wrongful death.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:52 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:52 PM

When Zimmerman is found to have acted in legitimate self defense, he will be immune from civil suits. Period.

That’s Florida state law.

Whatever wacky fantasy you’re entertaining in your head, or reading on left wing blogs, has nothing to do with the reality.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 6:55 PM

Wrong again, go read the laws, self defense alone does NOT make you immune from civil suits, only if SYG is applied and works.

Why doesn’t being wrong all the time bother you?

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 776.032

1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force,

The relevant portion of Fla. Stat. Ann. § 776.012:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

And here’s the kicker:

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

Fla. Stat. Ann. § 776.032

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 6:56 PM

it doesn’t apply if you cannot retreat. If retreat is not an option, then the situation is governed by ordinary self-defense laws, not SYG laws.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:38 PM

Yawn. Inability to retreat does not negate one’s right not to retreat under SYG.

Blake on April 14, 2012 at 6:57 PM

You claim he was within a few yards of the house? Try 70 yards, thats not a few!

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 5:03 PM

That was where he was killed, you poor sod. Previous to that, he was within yards of his ‘home’ when he cut through the yard and circled around to ambush and violently assault GZ.
All he had to do was go into his ‘home’ and all would have ended well. Zimmermann would have just told the operator that the person of interest was evidently staying in one of the houses in the community; and that would have been that.
Instead, the young thug decided to attack someone he suspected of “dissing” him.
A bad mistake, as it turned out.

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 6:57 PM

You do not read too well, that doesn’t matter. As soon as he told the 911 operator he was following him, he lost the SYG defense. And unless he somehow is able to get off on SYG then he is on the hook for a wrongful death suit.

EVERY legal person acknowledges this.

No informed, honest lawyer has ever made that claim.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 6:58 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 6:56 PM

Your wrong, that doesnt mean they can’t sue still. As I outlined above there is just cause since Zimmerman used poor judgement in many instances.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:59 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:59 PM

No I’m not. Read the statute.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:02 PM

Or better yet, since you don’t read well and aren’t qualified to understand the statute, just take my word for it.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Your wrong, that doesnt mean they can’t sue still. As I outlined above there is just cause since Zimmerman used poor judgement in many instances.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:59 PM

Damn you are dumb.

I and others just quoted Florida law stating that legitimate self defense gives complete immunity to civil suits.

Complete. Immunity. Period.

No, they cannot sue, there is no jackpot for the neglectful parents of Trayvon Martin.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Your wrong.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:06 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 6:46 PM

It’s time to cut lil damian loose. Now, s/he/it has someone else writing their posts.

Damian is just a troll, and the pair are down in the basement just coming up with garbage to prolong an argument.

Go back and read the last couple of posts from it. You’ll see.

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 7:08 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:06 PM

And you have a tail, but we’re trying to be polite and not talk about it.

You’re wrong. Stand you ground isn’t even a separate law. It’s just the final clause of the first paragraph of the Use of Force in Defense of Persons statute that I quoted above.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:08 PM

Your wrong.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:06 PM

How so?

Did the Florida legislature change the law and the Governor sign it while I wasn’t looking?

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:08 PM

And besides that they can sue the homeowners for it as well.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:09 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:08 PM

Easy, read:

However, even if police do not end up pursuing murder charges against George Zimmerman, the family should pursue a wrongful death lawsuit. Although self defense would bar a civil tort according to Florida law, it is unlikely to hold up based on the evidence I have seen. And there are several points of negligence on which Mr. Zimmerman could be held responsible for wrongful death.

http://rwklaw.com/trayvon-martin-shooting-wrongful-death-if-not-murder.html

Of course, the full facts of this case have yet to be revealed. However, even if police do not see fit to bring criminal charges, a wrongful death lawsuit does seem warranted, and should include the gated community, for permitting or encouraging an unauthorized and untrained neighborhood watch.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:12 PM

And besides that they can sue the homeowners for it as well.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:09 PM

On what grounds? That they had a police sanctioned neighborhood watch program in effect?

Good luck with that.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:12 PM

You do not like to read, do you. Or can you not read?

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:14 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:09 PM

Like I said, no informed, ethical lawyer.

Here’s a hint: Don’t take legal advice on Florida law from an ambulance chaser from Ohio.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:16 PM

Solaratov on April 14, 2012 at 7:08 PM

I think you’re probably right. I’m just killing time trolls until m’lady gets here.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:18 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Your taking an ambulance chasing lawyer’s word for it?

Damn you are dumb.

When it’s found that Zimmerman acted in self defense, he will be immune to civil suits. That’s the law, which has been quoted multiple times already.

What part of immunity don’t you understand?

More importantly, what part of it doesn’t this ambulance chaser understand? You have an excuse, you are an idiot, but a lawyer should know better.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:19 PM

Zimmerman was a self appointed unauthorized neighborhood watchman.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:19 PM

Whatever, I’m going to go make spaghetti sauce.

Damian, you make me feel like crying for my country.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:20 PM

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:19 PM

False. And he wasn’t acting as a member of the neighborhood watch on the night in question, in my understanding.

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:21 PM

Zimmerman was a self appointed unauthorized neighborhood watchman.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:19 PM

…who will be found acted in legitimate self defense, and be immune from civil suits.

Thanks for playing.

Tell your friends: friends don’t let friends play at being thugs.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM

vermin on April 14, 2012 at 7:21 PM

True, do some research. He was self appointed without any help from the neighbors who thought he was over the top.

Thats fact.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Are the race baiters still trying to shake down Wrigley?

Blake on April 14, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:23 PM

Wrong, he will not get off scott free in this.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM

Wrong, he will not get off scott free in this.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 7:29 PM

You might want to look up “immunity” in the dictionary, you seem unclear of the concept.

Actually, after he’s done suing NBC and the other MSM hacks who slandered him, he’ll likely be a millionaire.

Rebar on April 14, 2012 at 7:31 PM

Even “IF” and thats a big “IF” it was pure self defense, and even if what is said is true that Martin was the agressor, Zimmerman did not sustain any major harm that would warrant the death of Martin.

Plain and simple, it was over the top, even going by what you all claim to have happend without knowing the full scope of the evidence.

And it shows that by Zimmerman walking with no problem into the police station, there was NO life threatening injuries to justify killing someone.

damian1967 on April 14, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Once again you do not understand the entire concept of self defense, as it pertains to defending one’s life against a potentially deadly attack. A person is not obligated to wait until they have life threatening injuries before they act to protect their life. In your scenario, Zimmerman would have had to have let Martin beat his head into the sidewalk until he was nearly unconscious before he retaliated by shooting him.

You also have no concept of what can constitute life threatening injuries. Severe head trauma is very often fatal, or permanently disabling. You have no idea what the extent of Zimmerman’s injuries were. You were not present at the scene when he was treated, nor are you a doctor who examined him. The idea that his life wasn’t threatened by Martin’s beating, because he coukd walk into the police station has absolutely no relevance whatsoever.

You are so clueless I have to wonder if you are being deliberately obtuse. 99% of what you are saying is your own conjecture, based on what you WISH the facts in the case to be.

JannyMae on April 14, 2012 at 7:36 PM

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