Crater: 69% in new NYT/CBS poll say U.S. should not be fighting in Afghanistan

posted at 7:52 pm on March 26, 2012 by Allahpundit

A new high since they started asking this question in 2009. That’s noteworthy but not surprising given the gruesome Rasmussen poll Ed blogged a week ago. How much of it is driven by a reaction to the massacre on March 11 allegedly carried out by Robert Bales and how much is a reaction to the Koran-burning riots and fragging of U.S. troops by Afghan “partners” before that? No way to tell, but for a clue, revisit this ABC poll conducted from March 7 to 10 and published on the very day that Bales is said to have gone on a rampage. Even before his actions, 60 percent of adults said the war hasn’t been worth fighting and 54 percent said the U.S. should pull out whether or not it’s done training the Afghan army. This is a long time coming, but the riots and aftermath were obviously a heavy nudge.

The poll found that more than two-thirds of those surveyed — 69 percent — think that the United States should not be at war in Afghanistan. That number is a significant increase from just four months ago, when 53 percent said that Americans should no longer be fighting in the conflict, which began more than a decade ago.

There were even sharper increases when respondents were asked for their impressions on the state of the war. The poll found that 68 percent thought the fighting was going “somewhat badly” or “very badly,” compared with 42 percent who had those impressions in November. The latest poll was conducted by telephone from March 21 to 25 with 986 adults nationwide…

The poll showed that across all parties, negative impressions of the war in Afghanistan were growing. Among Republicans, 54 percent said the war was going somewhat or very well in November 2011, but just 34 percent said so in the most recent New York Times/CBS News poll.

More from CBS:

Fifty-five percent say they have no clear idea why we’re fighting in Afghanistan now that Bin Laden’s dead, but don’t read too much into the OBL angle of that question. Back in September of last year, after Osama had been fish food for four months, 50 percent said they did have a clear idea why we were still fighting versus just 43 percent who said they didn’t. It’s not that the goals of the mission have suddenly become murkier lately, it’s that people are having a harder time seeing how those goals justify risking the lives of U.S. troops for people willing to shoot them in the back of the head for accidentally burning a Koran. Speaking of which, one of Time magazine’s correspondents asked a good question: How come there were a week’s worth of riots and killings after the Korans were burned but no riots and killings after Bales allegedly went berserk and killed 17 people? The answer:

When mullah Abdul Rahim Shah Ghaa thinks back to the day in February when a couple of Afghan employees at a U.S.-run detention center outside Kabul yanked five partly burned Korans out of a trash incinerator, he shudders with anger and revulsion. “It is like a knife to my heart,” says the head of the provincial religious council. The March 11 slaying of 16 Afghan civilians by a lone U.S Army staff sergeant named Robert Bales in Kandahar province, however, has left less of a scar. “Of course we condemn that act,” he says. “But it was only 16 people. Even if it were 1,000 people, it wouldn’t compare to harming one word of the Koran. If someone insults our holy book, it means that they insult our faith, our religion and everything that we have.”…

Comparing reactions to the two atrocities is not just a question of the sacred vs. the profane, says parliamentarian Fawzia Koofi. As with everything else in Afghanistan, politics plays a role. While she has no doubt that antigovernment elements and even opposition politicians sought to capitalize on both events, she believes that Afghans have become savvy to the political opportunities presented by yet another case of civilian deaths and have learned not to react. Bales may have murdered nine children in his rampage, she notes, but just a few days later an insurgent bomb planted in the road of a neighboring province killed nine more. “Why don’t we stand strongly against the Taliban when they massacre people?” she asks. “People are clever enough to understand that this is a political issue and the Koran is not.”

Maybe, but I think a lot of Americans see their responses to the two incidents as so drastically different from how they’d react themselves — if there’s to be rioting, it’s for slaughtered innocents, not a book — that they conclude the two cultures are hopelessly incompatible and it’s time to call the whole thing off. And when you add what Bales allegedly did to that, the queasiness and exasperation become so profound that suddenly the thought of getting far away and leaving these people alone to make the best of it in their own country becomes irresistibly alluring.

Here’s Bales’s wife trying to come to grips with the charges against him. Three more allied troops, two British and one American, were shot dead today by Afghan soldiers.

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Comment pages: 1 2

Stop fighting and just Nuke’m….endgame!

dmann on March 26, 2012 at 7:56 PM

Count me among the majority here.

cynccook on March 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM

Count me among the majority here.

cynccook on March 26, 2012 at 7:57 PM

Same here. There’s no point to it anymore. It’s just something we’re doing and seem to want to do forever.

JellyToast on March 26, 2012 at 7:59 PM

Well, withdrawal certainly is a deterrent against future terror attacks./ Maybe what we need is a strategy for victory rather than a strategy to simply occupy until a certain date.

BKeyser on March 26, 2012 at 7:59 PM

MeanWhile……………………………………..

Officials:
**********

White House offers restrictions on use of drones in Pakistan

Submitted 51 secs ago from http://www.google.com
http://www.breakingnews.com/
============================

Officials: White House offers to curtail drones
1 minute ago
************

WASHINGTON (AP) — In a bid to save the CIA’s drone campaign against al-Qaida in Pakistan, US officials offered key concessions to Pakistan’s spy chief that included advance notice and limits on the types of targets. But the offers were flatly rejected, leaving US-Pakistani relations strained as President Barack Obama prepares to meet Tuesday with Pakistan’s prime minister.(More…..)
==========================================================

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjf98ARXlVeH7DgdfSMZTirKfdBg?docId=87e8c6d0020141f2a8dbe89cb858fc81

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 7:40 PM

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 8:00 PM

Maybe what we need is a strategy for victory rather than a strategy to simply occupy until a certain date.

BKeyser on March 26, 2012 at 7:59 PM

I’m with you. Either ramp up and take care of business or get out.

arnold ziffel on March 26, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Call me, I’ll bump it up to 70 percent for you. Military has done a fantastic job, but now even that turd karzai feels the need to denigrate the troops. We will never change their third century culture. Get out, and let the taliban have karzai’s head, literally.

msupertas on March 26, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Sounds like an MSM Operation at Perception/Deception,
just in time before the upcoming election!

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Obama doomed us when he dithered on the surge and then did it in a half-as**d way with fewer troops and a TIMETABLE.

Now – as a result of Obama, we should split ASAP – but only with an ultimatum:

“If we are attacked by anyone who originates in Afghanistan – whether via training, visiting, in any way – then we will NUKE all population and agricultural centers killing 50-75% of all Afghanis and making it uninhabitable for generations.”

reliapundit on March 26, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Stop fighting and just Nuke’m….endgame!

dmann on March 26, 2012 at 7:56 PM

+1000

xplodeit on March 26, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Pull our troops home and turn Afghanistan into a glass covered parking lot, Perfidy deserves it just reward…..

SWalker on March 26, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Along with Santorum HotAir seems to be pushing a precipitous withdrawal from Afghanistan. 2 bad ideas.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:04 PM

America never had what it takes to win in Afghanistan. It takes the ability to be an colonial power, which Americans hate even more than losing.

Iraq didn’t need this (though having it would’ve helped) but Afghanistan? I can’t become an actual workable state without it.

Thus, the end is now inevitable. Nation building in Afghanistan was a mistake.

apollyonbob on March 26, 2012 at 8:05 PM

Might be an opportunity to decrease that nuclear arsenal. Everybody wins.

Ronnie on March 26, 2012 at 8:07 PM

Nation building is an utter waste of time and always has been. You cannot make a people something they are not. If they weren’t a nation previously then nothing anyone says or does will change that.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 8:07 PM

One of the key principles of war, taught to every young officer candidate, cadet or mustang, is Objective

To wit: any military operation or engagement must have a clearly defined, decisive, and attainable objective.

In the absence of this fundamental principle…with regards to Afghanistan…perhaps it is well past time to leave…and when we leave, leave the country in the precise same condition in which we first found it.

I cannot imagine any US military member wanting to be the last casualty of what has become an unmitigated disaster. And the disaster stems from the top.

God bless and keep our troops safe in the meantime.

coldwarrior on March 26, 2012 at 8:07 PM

Along with Santorum HotAir seems to be pushing a precipitous withdrawal from Afghanistan. 2 bad ideas.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Then convincingly explain what victory is and the path to get there.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 8:08 PM

Dubya knew what he was doing when he focused on Iraq. Democrats always called Afghanistan “the good war.” How good does it feel now, ‘Rats? I still think we ought to napalm the poppy fields, as and where we find them. OK, maybe not napalm but something that will kill the plants and destroy the revenue.
.
Homer Simpson sez: “S-M-R-T Power!”
.
Øblama sez: “I agree!”

ExpressoBold on March 26, 2012 at 8:08 PM

The troops are over there alone. No support from their commander in chief. Bring ‘em home.

bluealice on March 26, 2012 at 8:08 PM

I’m with you. Either ramp up and take care of business or get out.

arnold ziffel on March 26, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Pull ‘em all out. Monitor taliban/al qaeda movements from the skies. If it looks like they’re setting up a base, send ‘em a “Tomahawk Surprise.”

Or just turn the whole country into glass.

Your call.

predator on March 26, 2012 at 8:10 PM

If When we leave, I hope we don’t feel compelled to keep sending them mounds of foreign aid cash. They have their poppy fields. My niece’s hubby is over there as a Marine, involved in training programs. Has not been impressed with the quality of trainees. Has just been ordered to carry a weapon everywhere, even the shower. Don’t know exactly how that shower business works….I assume they take turns showering and standing guard for each other. Hell of a deal!

a capella on March 26, 2012 at 8:11 PM

msupertas on March 26, 2012 at 8:02 PM

These seventh-century heathens can have Karzai’s head, as far as I’m concerned. In fact, I hope eventually they do just that.

predator on March 26, 2012 at 8:12 PM

But wait, according to 0bama, this is the “right war” eleventy! What changed genius?

jbtripp on March 26, 2012 at 8:12 PM

Once we pussified our military, tied one hand behind their backs, and turned them into tribal ambassadors we should have pulled out.

In Iraq at least you had a few great-full people, I can’t ever remember hearing or seeing one in Afghanistan.

Vigilante on March 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Did you hear that the “blood money” paid to the slain families was “from Obama himself”, not from the U.S. taxpayers/people? Really. He paid it from his own accounts.

Schadenfreude on March 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

O/T,Speaking of polls,er,reports!!
———————————-

New UN report:
***************

Number of people seeking asylum in the West jumped 20% in 2011

Submitted 4 mins ago from hosted.ap.org
http://www.breakingnews.com/
============================

Mar 26, 8:02 PM EDT
UN: Asylum requests to rich countries rose in 2011
**************************************************

GENEVA (AP) — Afghans topped the list of asylum claimants to the world’s richest countries in 2011,

followed by Chinese and Iraqis, the U.N. refugee agency reported Tuesday.

Tunisians, Libyans and people from Ivory Coast saw the biggest annual rise, while the number of Pakistanis and Syrians applying for asylum also jumped noticeably.(More….)
=============================================

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UN_ASYLUM_APPLICATIONS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-03-26-20-02-05

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 8:16 PM

OT: just switched over to cnn, anderson cooper calling the new black panther party a fringe group…
holder would probably disagree

don’t know why, but it made me chuckle…

cmsinaz on March 26, 2012 at 8:16 PM

Or just turn the whole country into glass.

Your call.

predator on March 26, 2012 at 8:10 PM

predator:Yup,Nuclear CarpetBombing me thinks!:)

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 8:19 PM

It’s so weird, weren’t we told during the Bush presidency that Afghan was the “real” war an Iraq was just Bush’s revenge?

Cindy Munford on March 26, 2012 at 8:21 PM

don’t know why, but it made me chuckle…

cmsinaz on March 26, 2012 at 8:16 PM

cnsinaZ:Oh boy,here comes another suspension,haha!:)

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 8:21 PM

Probably can’t leave until the Arab League is on side and the Soddys OK it.

BL@KBIRD on March 26, 2012 at 8:21 PM

bring em home!

DBear on March 26, 2012 at 8:22 PM

This war was lost the day Obama took office.

iceman1960 on March 26, 2012 at 8:23 PM

AQ picked the perfect place to set up. The only two routes in are via untrustworthy “allies.” With our hands tied, not much good can be done without mistakes being made that cost us in a P.R. sense.

Can we just do a special ops/CIA war by air-lift alone?

ThePrez on March 26, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Pull out of the hellhole except keep one airbase handy to launch drones and bombers from and to stage special forces from.

Blow up taliban/terrorist camps as they appear and let the barbarians live in their 7th century paradise they so desperately desire.

I couldn’t care LESS about the Afghan people. It’s been proven over and over in the last year that muslims WANT a taliban type government. Let them have it. But don’t allow the place to be used as a base for terrorists.

wildcat72 on March 26, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Oops,sorry CMS,thats cmsinaz,not(cnsinaZ):)

canopfor on March 26, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Did you hear that the “blood money” paid to the slain families was “from Obama himself”, not from the U.S. taxpayers/people? Really. He paid it from his own accounts.

Schadenfreude on March 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

He’s got a stash. A lady in Detroit told me that. She didn’t know where it came from.

a capella on March 26, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Pull out, but pull out completely — troops, and financial support. Afghanistan wants to go it alone? Le ‘em go totally alone. And then pray for the women of Afghanistan. They’re gonna need it.

Rational Thought on March 26, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Then convincingly explain what victory is and the path to get there.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 8:08 PM

Victory is killing Adam Perlman, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Mullah Omar, most of the Haqqani’s and about 30-50 other dead enders. Making it clear to the Pakistani ISI that the gravy train is over and we will align ourselves with India unless they clean out the Wazarastan terror networks and give up designs on controlling Afghanistan. Getting rid of Karzai and replacing him with someone who is less of a bi-polar basket case. Perhaps Abdoullah Abdoullah. Finish building the Afghan army and police force to the point where a rudimentary legal code can be enforced and cross border raids can be repelled and establishing the terms where an American counter terror contingent can remain to squash whatever pops up before it gets out of control.

The path to getting there is replacing the current incompetent civilian leadership who has played politics with the mission from the onset.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:25 PM

The moment a population riots more over a burned, already-desecrated holy book than the killing of innocent civilians is the moment I start wondering about nuking from orbit.

pookysgirl on March 26, 2012 at 8:26 PM

Amazing, we we had islamists flying aircraft full of people into buildings full of people out of Afghanistan. If we bug out with our tail between our legs these s#!ts will be able to say that islam defeated both superpowers.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:28 PM

In other words they want to surrender….
Need to stay until the job is done….

nazo311 on March 26, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Right. Since when did It become young Americans’ role to die to keep Muslims from killing each other? Never understood the reasoning driving that foreign policy disaster.

This one really IS Bush’s fault.

Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 8:30 PM

Why is Ben Kingsley wearing that silly hat?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001426/

Obowma hates the military and uses them only for a photo op. We should bring them home, honor them with a huge parade to thank them for their service and to honor those who sacrificed their lives and honor the surviving family members.

dthorny on March 26, 2012 at 8:30 PM

destroy all poppy…

equanimous on March 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM

Why is Ben Kingsley wearing that silly hat?

dthorny on March 26, 2012 at 8:30 PM

heh!

equanimous on March 26, 2012 at 8:33 PM

Did you hear that the “blood money” paid to the slain families was “from Obama himself”, not from the U.S. taxpayers/people? Really. He paid it from his own accounts.

Schadenfreude on March 26, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Get it from Obowma’s stash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKb78kJhaMw

dthorny on March 26, 2012 at 8:34 PM

destroy all poppy…

equanimous on March 26, 2012 at 8:31 PM

I agree leave em with a message on our way out…

Only 69% want us to leave Afghanistan? So 31% think what we should keep shoving tax payer dollars down Karzai’s pantaloons LOL!

Dr Evil on March 26, 2012 at 8:39 PM

Victory is killing Adam Perlman, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Mullah Omar, most of the Haqqani’s and about 30-50 other dead enders.

And you think killing some of their leaders will stop their attacks? Israel has been doing this for some time and it never ends.

Making it clear to the Pakistani ISI that the gravy train is over and we will align ourselves with India unless they clean out the Wazarastan terror networks and give up designs on controlling Afghanistan.

Or what? To resupply the forces in Afghanistan the trucks need to roll through Pakistan. You cannot make such a threat until US forces are no longer dependent on the Pakistani supply route.

Getting rid of Karzai and replacing him with someone who is less of a bi-polar basket case. Perhaps Abdoullah Abdoullah.

So we replace the Afghan government with a puppet from the Northern Alliance and expect good results from that?

Finish building the Afghan army and police force to the point where a rudimentary legal code can be enforced and cross border raids can be repelled and establishing the terms where an American counter terror contingent can remain to squash whatever pops up before it gets out of control.

That hasn’t happened in ten years. World War Two saw armies raised, shipped overseas, campaigns fought and won, and those same armies demobilized in less time.

If they cannot get their crap together in a decade then they are never going to get it together.

The path to getting there is replacing the current incompetent civilian leadership who has played politics with the mission from the onset.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:25 PM

Bush was doing a better job but it still wasn’t happening and Sharia law was placed in the Afghan constitution under Bush.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 8:40 PM

Finish building the Afghan army

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:25 PM

I think much of what you said is “sort of” “the plan” and I don’t disagree. However, the statement above is actually one of the main issues (along with the cultural, governmental, and myriad other issues that are show-stoppers…).

The security forces that we are training require a LOT of money (pay, supplies, training costs, etc.). They have zero capability from the air. They can’t READ. The goal is a 350,000 man Afghan force. On top of everything else is the fact that Afghanistan does not, nor will it ever have, the economy to support said army. Or even a fraction thereof.

And it certainly isn’t worth any more US money. That we don’t have.

Hueydriver on March 26, 2012 at 8:43 PM

It’s so weird, weren’t we told during the Bush presidency that Afghan was the “real” war an Iraq was just Bush’s revenge?

Cindy Munford on March 26, 2012 at 8:21 PM

…careful!…you have a memory!…You’re a camp candidate!

KOOLAID2 on March 26, 2012 at 8:43 PM

I agree with them. Of course, I want us to carpetbomb the forsaken hellhole into oblivion on our way out, but I suppose most of the survey people wouldn’t go quite that far.

Midas on March 26, 2012 at 8:48 PM

We should never waste our blood and treasure trying to nation build where Sharia is law. The results will always be the same. It will never work. Ever.

iceman1960 on March 26, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Given that The Chosen One is not in “to win”, why stay?

As for the results, I can only imagine who would respond to a NYT/CBS poll.

GarandFan on March 26, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Would we destroy Nazi Germany and then rebuild it under a Nazi regime? This makes about as much sense.

iceman1960 on March 26, 2012 at 8:55 PM

Re.sharrukin

And you think killing some of their leaders will stop their attacks? Israel has been doing this for some time and it never ends.

Better to just roll over and take it, right? When an islamist, following the teachings of the Koran and 1400 years of murderous aggression brought about by the teachings of a self professed serial killing child rapist slave trader, decides to fly aircraft full of people into buildings full of people it we best just do our best to ignore it because killing them might mean that others will be murderous stone age savages a well.
Would you really have us be doormats to these things?

Or what? To resupply the forces in Afghanistan the trucks need to roll through Pakistan. You cannot make such a threat until US forces are no longer dependent on the Pakistani supply route.

No, what they fear most is that we form an alliance with India and the loss of US dollars. Make it clear that that will happen unless we get cooperation.

So we replace the Afghan government with a puppet from the Northern Alliance and expect good results from that?

Better results, yes.

That hasn’t happened in ten years.

It hasn’t been the priority. Our forces have gone from counterinsurgency to nation building to counterterrorism and now they are facing down a completely arbitrary withdrawal deadline. Indeed, a deadline that falls in the middle of the fighting season.

Bush was doing a better job but it still wasn’t happening and Sharia law was placed in the Afghan constitution under Bush.

I don’t care if the whole thing is Sharia, If that’s what they want then fine, I don’t plan on going on vacation there. As long as thy don’t allow Afghanistan/Pakistan to be used as a base of operations to attack the west whatever they do to each other is fine with me. However, turning it over to the Taliban and the Pakistani ISI is going to allow the same conditions that dragged us over there in the first place, and allow the islamists to claim victory over the west as well as the Soviets.

Sad how supposed conservatives have forgotten 9/11.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:57 PM

Our “allies” are shooting our troops in the back, while the President of our “ally” country is trying to round our troops up into concentrated areas as much as possible, and I won’t bore everyone with the completely moronic ROE’s that are not helping our KIA and WIA numbers.

If you care about our troops, cut them loose to whoop @ss or pull them out. Our enemies are using our self imposed rules against us. Where have we seen that before, rhymes with “spouse” and “it a slam”.

Stop the madness.

Hog Wild on March 26, 2012 at 8:59 PM

There is nothing to “win” in Afcrapistan. It’s not a game show. It’s The Operation Enduring Insanity Ultimate Bridge To Nowhere. The only ones winning anything are the traitorous, to America and to their own troops, and incompetent generals.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:00 PM

69% in new NYT/CBS poll say U.S. should not be fighting in Afghanistan

And the other 31% either hate the troops or support islamic law, or both.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:02 PM

Hueydriver on March 26, 2012 at 8:43 PM

They have zero capability from the air.

That’s why we will need to maintain a presence.

They can’t READ.

The majority of them wont need to.

The goal is a 350,000 man Afghan force.

Unrealistic, I agree.

And it certainly isn’t worth any more US money.

How much did 9/11 cost?

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:02 PM

The US shouldn’t be sending any money to Afghanistan, either.

disa on March 26, 2012 at 9:04 PM

Along with Santorum HotAir seems to be pushing a precipitous withdrawal from Afghanistan. 2 bad ideas.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:04 PM

As “we” have been there for over 10 years, it is now impossible to have a precipitous withdrawal.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:07 PM

How much did 9/11 cost?

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:02 PM

How much would it cost you to get a one-way ticket to Afcrapistan?

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:08 PM

Amazing, we we had islamists flying aircraft full of people into buildings full of people out of Afghanistan. If we bug out with our tail between our legs these s#!ts will be able to say that islam defeated both superpowers.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Al Queida was BASED in Afghanistan at the time, but the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from “Our Friend” Saudi Arabia.

wildcat72 on March 26, 2012 at 9:11 PM

As “we” have been there for over 10 years, it is now impossible to have a precipitous withdrawal.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:07 PM

Definition of PRECIPITOUS
: very steep, perpendicular, or overhanging in rise or fall

So, yes. It’s possible.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:12 PM

How much would it cost you to get a one-way ticket to Afcrapistan?

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:08 PM

Probably less then it would cost to get you a spine.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:13 PM

Al Queida was BASED in Afghanistan at the time, but the majority of the 9/11 hijackers were from “Our Friend” Saudi Arabia.

wildcat72 on March 26, 2012 at 9:11 PM

They could have gotten the hijackers from anywhere that had a large muslim population. Saudi Arabia was chosen specifically because Bin Laden and Al Qaeda want the Saudi monarchy removed from power and the US withdrawing support for them would go along way to seeing that achieved.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:16 PM

Definition of PRECIPITOUS
: very steep, perpendicular, or overhanging in rise or fall

So, yes. It’s possible.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:12 PM

So by your “logic” we could stay in Afcrapistan for 10,000 years and still have a precipitous withdrawal. Why don’t you go over there and partner with those our idiot generals call “Our Partners In Peace”.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:17 PM

Probably less then it would cost to get you a spine.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:13 PM

So you are an officer in the (APPKR) Afcrapistan Partners in Peace Keyboard Rangers, I presume?

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:20 PM

Re.sharrukin

And you think killing some of their leaders will stop their attacks? Israel has been doing this for some time and it never ends.

Better to just roll over and take it, right? When an islamist, following the teachings of the Koran and 1400 years of murderous aggression brought about by the teachings of a self professed serial killing child rapist slave trader, decides to fly aircraft full of people into buildings full of people it we best just do our best to ignore it because killing them might mean that others will be murderous stone age savages a well.
Would you really have us be doormats to these things?

No and I don’t think that handing out candy, building roads for the scum, or babbling about a mythical ‘religion of peace’ is the answer. Why ‘build their nation’ when they attacked and killed 3,000 Americans on 911? In what sane world does that make sense?

I think Israel should respond with sustained artillery barrages when they are fired on from the Gaza strip. Make it painful and costly to attack and they will soon stop those attacks. People tend to do what succeeds and if we want to win we have to make terrorism too costly of a tactic to utilize. That means a disproportional response.

Or what? To resupply the forces in Afghanistan the trucks need to roll through Pakistan. You cannot make such a threat until US forces are no longer dependent on the Pakistani supply route.

No, what they fear most is that we form an alliance with India and the loss of US dollars. Make it clear that that will happen unless we get cooperation.

Its an empty threat and we should have enough respect for them to realize they aren’t stupid. They know it.

So we replace the Afghan government with a puppet from the Northern Alliance and expect good results from that?

Better results, yes.

Better doesn’t mean good enough which I suspect is the case with Afghanistan.

That hasn’t happened in ten years.

It hasn’t been the priority. Our forces have gone from counterinsurgency to nation building to counterterrorism and now they are facing down a completely arbitrary withdrawal deadline. Indeed, a deadline that falls in the middle of the fighting season.

So now we are just starting?

And that is an actual argument that the goobers in charge can make this work? Really?

Bush was doing a better job but it still wasn’t happening and Sharia law was placed in the Afghan constitution under Bush.

I don’t care if the whole thing is Sharia, If that’s what they want then fine, I don’t plan on going on vacation there. As long as thy don’t allow Afghanistan/Pakistan to be used as a base of operations to attack the west whatever they do to each other is fine with me. However, turning it over to the Taliban and the Pakistani ISI is going to allow the same conditions that dragged us over there in the first place, and allow the islamists to claim victory over the west as well as the Soviets.

You need to read what you wrote about 1,400 years of Islam.

This is Islam. Not Islamists, not extremists, not corruptors of Islam, not Islamo-Fascists. The Muslims is commanded in the Koran to attack the unbeliever wherever they are found so Sharia in their constitution is entrenching the very system that impelled the 911 attack. They are doing what they did in the Barbary wars and what they have done for more than a thousand years before the American Republic ever existed.

Sad how supposed conservatives have forgotten 9/11.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 8:57 PM

Some believe that we are in a war with Islam and that there is no point in trying to help our enemies. We should bring pain, misery, death and destruction to them until they cease their attacks, or they no longer exist as a threat. Giving them money isn’t going to buy their friendship. It rightly earns their contempt.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 9:21 PM

Only two ways to effectively deal with Afghanistan.

1. Leave. Bin Laden is dead and the Taliban is local, not international like Al-Qaeda.

2. Go all in with “real war” troop levels, while teaming up with India to get Pakistan into submission, which will NOT be popular but you’ll never take Afghanistan without first controlling the actions of Pakistan in regards to it.

Unfortunately, the time for option 2 has essentially passed, and as such, any real ship of hope sailed when we all but abandoned and ignored the conflict after initially dominating, so we could go play in Iraq with 10 times the force in Afghanistan, where 9/11 actually came from, instead.

Boomer_Sooner on March 26, 2012 at 9:27 PM

V7_Sport, are you Doug Feith, the man Tommy Franks called the dumbest f-ing man on the planet?

American Soldiers and American Marines should not be losing life and limb to support muslims and shariah law. This is an anti-American abomination.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:27 PM

I just love the What About Bob tone of that picture.

Fish on March 26, 2012 at 9:36 PM

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:16 PM

You make some great points. One thing I’ll add though. I do not know, for the life of me, why the US Government is unwilling to tell the American People how involved Iran is in OEF and how it’s shift from Iraq to Afghanistan changed the entire posture and climate of that front.

Afghanistan was almost as safe in 05 to travel around in freely as it’s been to travel in Northern Iraq in Kurdish areas since the invasion. After the Anbar Awakening and literal end to the organized insurgency, Iran shifted it’s attention and support to Afghanistan. Literally convoys of Iranian goods trucked into RC West by the end of 08. Material for sophisticated IEDs and rockets, IR Missiles and even cadre to teach how to use these weapons.

The American People as a whole supported the efforts for a long time and they were told this would be a long expensive conflict. But I there are too many voices out there that have the ability and forum to mischaracterize the truth about the war to an American People that are getting impatient. If this poll is anything close to being accurate, I’m not sure anything would change that. The media wouldn’t let The Bush Administration get the information out about the war and The Obama Administration I think just doesn’t care because it wants to leave regardless of the consequences.

hawkdriver on March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

No and I don’t think that handing out candy, building roads for the scum, or babbling about a mythical ‘religion of peace’ is the answer.

There goes plan “A”.

“Why ‘build their nation’ when they attacked and killed 3,000 Americans on 911? In what sane world does that make sense?”

You are overlooking the fact that the things that we are fighting, that have been fighting us for 1400 years don’t need much of an infrastructure to do what they do. They were able to kill thousands with box cutters. The nation building involved is whatever it takes to run an effective counterinsurgency program. How long does that take? However long it takes. It took about 40-50 years in the case of the Indian wars. Iraq took 8. Northern Ireland took decades. Israel has yet to start one.

To resupply the forces in Afghanistan the trucks need to roll through Pakistan. You cannot make such a threat until US forces are no longer dependent on the Pakistani supply route.

Sure you can.

You need to read what you wrote about 1,400 years of Islam.

Well no, if they want to use sharia law to stone each other and “honor rape” each other then so be it. If it didn’t impact on our mission or our objectives then it will keep them too busy tossing rocks to plant IED’s.

The Muslims is commanded in the Koran to attack the unbeliever wherever they are found so Sharia in their constitution is entrenching the very system that impelled the 911 attack.

We should bring pain, misery, death and destruction to them until they cease their attacks, or they no longer exist as a threat.

Seeing as there are over a billion of them to inflict that on you best get busy.
It sounds like you are advocating either 1) roll over and take it or 2) institute the final solution for the muslim question. Yeah, I’m not willing to be a dhimmi or set up death camps. Got to find some other way.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Some believe that we are in a war with Islam and that there is no point in trying to help our enemies. We should bring pain, misery, death and destruction to them until they cease their attacks, or they no longer exist as a threat. Giving them money isn’t going to buy their friendship. It rightly earns their contempt.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 9:21 PM

People have a short memory, I guess, but can anyone remember what all our attempts to influence Afghanistan during the Russian invasion garnered us when all was said and done? Hint: he’s sleeping with the fishes.

cynccook on March 26, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Got to find some other way.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

You forgot the third option: cut our losses.

cynccook on March 26, 2012 at 9:44 PM

Afcrapistan = Operation Enduring Insanity.

Real Americans do not support islamic law and such traitorous stupidity.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:49 PM

karzi supports shariah law … American troops support karzi … therefor American troops are supporting islamic law. This is an anti-American abomination in the extreme. Our own generals are sick b-astards.

VorDaj on March 26, 2012 at 9:52 PM

Seeing as there are over a billion of them to inflict that on you best get busy.
It sounds like you are advocating either 1) roll over and take it or 2) institute the final solution for the muslim question. Yeah, I’m not willing to be a dhimmi or set up death camps. Got to find some other way.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

The fact that we may be facing a dire situation not to our liking doesn’t mean that the situation doesn’t exist. When the US was attacked on Dec 7th, 1941 that meant the death of hundreds of thousands and years of bloody war. That unpleasant fact didn’t change reality.

We may indeed be forced to destroy Islam or to live with the historic low levels of conflict that historically consisted of small raiding parties (pirates or horsemen) bent on loot and glory. Now they are called terrorists, Janjaweed, pirates, and Jihadists.

We could bring enough destructive potential to bear that the host governments take actions due to the direct cost of out attacks, or the threat of such attacks. None of these things require us to hand out baskets of cash to terrorists or their sympathizers. Occupying those nations is a waste of time. They aren’t going to change unless we forcibly change their religion.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 9:55 PM

Last week I finished reading “Outlaw Platoon” an amazing true accounting of our special forces deployed in Afghanistan. This book has convinced me that we need all of our troops out of that hell hole. Afghanistan is a land forgotten by time filled with barbarians and run by truly evil people. How the Taliban treats its own people is unimaginable, the book describes just a few tragedies that I still can’t get out of my mind.

They are a lost cause. Nothing we can do will change that.

Now, combine this massive waste of time with legal restrictions that cause our own men to die. Envision requests for air cover being denied because the Taliban is over the Pakistani border lobbing hundreds of shells on our troops, therefore we can’t engage. Envision learning that the Taliban is treating its wounded with fresh supplies from Pakistani hospitals. Envision supposedly friendly Afghani interpreters notifying the Taliban about special forces positions and plans so they can establish kill boxes and ambush our people. I could go on.

Do yourself a favor and get the book. Or get the Kindle version.

Afghanistan is a hell hole. We can’t nuke it, so lets get our guys the hell out of there.

TheLoudTalker on March 26, 2012 at 9:56 PM

People have a short memory, I guess, but can anyone remember what all our attempts to influence Afghanistan during the Russian invasion garnered us when all was said and done? Hint: he’s sleeping with the fishes.

cynccook on March 26, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Gratitude isn’t something the Muslims are known for. The US has been going to bat for them for decades and are despised by them. The Russians massacred them by the truckload and they are not the ones referred to as The Great Satan.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 9:58 PM

Got to find some other way.
V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

THERE IS NO OTHER WAY.

All you can do is try and quarantine it.

Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 9:58 PM

I was in favor of the war when we had an objective. Now we simply seem to be feeding our troops in to be slaughtered with ridiculous rules of engagement and traitorous “allies”.

My daughter is over there, and I don’t want to see her murdered by some lunatic Muslim because somebody, somewhere burned their worthless holy book.

Bring them home. Let these 7th Century savages kill and enslave each other. If they want to live that way, who are we to stop them?

Screw the lot of them. And I hope Karzai regrets the day he started shooting off his mouth for political gain. I will look forward to the day I hear of his unseating and subsequent execution for treason against Allah.

hachiban on March 26, 2012 at 9:59 PM

hawkdriver on March 26, 2012 at 9:41 PM

You make some great points. One thing I’ll add though. I do not know, for the life of me, why the US Government is unwilling to tell the American People how involved Iran is in OEF and how it’s shift from Iraq to Afghanistan changed the entire posture and climate of that front.

Politicians are cowards. They don’t want to recognize this because it means recognizing Iran for what it is and that means alienating the people who swept Obama into power. It’s also evidentally somehow better to have a long series of disappointments then to just level with people to gird themselves for the long haul.

Iran shifted it’s attention and support to Afghanistan. Literally convoys of Iranian goods trucked into RC West by the end of 08. Material for sophisticated IEDs and rockets, IR Missiles and even cadre to teach how to use these weapons.

It’s really been alarming to watch the Sunnis and Shiites working together as opposed to their more traditional role of being at each others throats. Iran was supplying both sides of the Iraqi insurgency in order to create as much bloodshed as possible, even if it meant seeing sunnis killing Shiites/Persians. That they have been able to turn on a dime and offer help to the Taliban and even harbor al Qaeda shows them to be completely ruthless and capable of anything.

The American People as a whole supported the efforts for a long time and they were told this would be a long expensive conflict. But I there are too many voices out there that have the ability and forum to mischaracterize the truth about the war to an American People that are getting impatient. If this poll is anything close to being accurate, I’m not sure anything would change that.

A smoking crater in midtown Manhattan? I pray it doesn’t come to that. Are we really that decadent?

The Obama Administration I think just doesn’t care because it wants to leave regardless of the consequences.

They don’t dwell on consequences.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM

You forgot the third option: cut our losses.

cynccook on March 26, 2012 at 9:44 PM

That’s still door #1.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:09 PM

A smoking crater in midtown Manhattan? I pray it doesn’t come to that. Are we really that decadent?

The Obama Administration I think just doesn’t care because it wants to leave regardless of the consequences.

They don’t dwell on consequences.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM

More good commentary that really needs nothing added. I’ll just add to your last lines here that the country could have used a Lincoln at this exact time in history, rather than a man who was more preoccupied with how much of the US economy he could put under control of the federal government.

What people wrote about the ROE under this administration though? There’s no real defense of it.

hawkdriver on March 26, 2012 at 10:15 PM

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:08 PM

I also am going to have to add, I admire your ability to tune out the absurd and irrelevant once you’ve established where it lives. (You did lose cool points for not recognizing it sooner).

hawkdriver on March 26, 2012 at 10:19 PM

sharrukin

The fact that we may be facing a dire situation not to our liking doesn’t mean that the situation doesn’t exist. When the US was attacked on Dec 7th, 1941 that meant the death of hundreds of thousands and years of bloody war. That unpleasant fact didn’t change reality.

Right.

We may indeed be forced to destroy Islam or to live with the historic low levels of conflict that historically consisted of small raiding parties (pirates or horsemen) bent on loot and glory.

Eeer, one would preclude the other. We we facing something like the Barberry Corsairs rather then al Qaeda we wouldn’t be having this conversation. One was a nuisance, the other is a genuine threat.

We could bring enough destructive potential to bear that the host governments take actions due to the direct cost of out attacks, or the threat of such attacks

So if we don’t have the stomach for finishing the mission in Afghanistan after they attacked us from there and murdered 3000 Americans how are we going to go about taking on Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and soon Egypt? I don’t see that happening.

They aren’t going to change unless we forcibly change their religion.

Whelp, unless you have a magic want that can convert a billion of them to country club going Presbyterians…

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM

We may indeed be forced to destroy Islam or to live with the historic low levels of conflict that historically consisted of small raiding parties (pirates or horsemen) bent on loot and glory.

Eeer, one would preclude the other. We we facing something like the Barberry Corsairs rather then al Qaeda we wouldn’t be having this conversation. One was a nuisance, the other is a genuine threat.

It was enough of a threat to the Republic that they created a navy to deal with it.

The technology has changed, not the nature or the intent of those waging Jihad.

We could bring enough destructive potential to bear that the host governments take actions due to the direct cost of out attacks, or the threat of such attacks

So if we don’t have the stomach for finishing the mission in Afghanistan after they attacked us from there and murdered 3000 Americans how are we going to go about taking on Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and soon Egypt? I don’t see that happening.

Its fighting on behalf of Karzai and his countrymen that disgust so many. They are murdering American servicemen who are their to help them. Most people don’t have any problem with attacks on the Taliban. Treachery always burns worse than the actions of an enemy.

We need to face up to who that enemy really is.

They aren’t going to change unless we forcibly change their religion.

Whelp, unless you have a magic want that can convert a billion of them to country club going Presbyterians…

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:20 PM

That would be the point. I have no such wand and neither do you. Nation building will fail without that magic wand.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 10:27 PM

Just get out. There are more pressing issues in the world like Iran getting Nukes.

boogaleesnots on March 26, 2012 at 10:27 PM

I also am going to have to add, I admire your ability to tune out the absurd and irrelevant once you’ve established where it lives. (You did lose cool points for not recognizing it sooner).

hawkdriver on March 26, 2012 at 10:19 PM

LOL, Thank you. I’m working on the cool points, I want that Steve McQueen rating.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:31 PM

…from the orbit. It’s the only way to make sure.

Archivarix on March 26, 2012 at 10:31 PM

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 10:27 PM

They aren’t going to change unless we forcibly change their religion.

Hopefully exposure to modernity will sway the masses. Hopefully they will evolve.

I have no such wand and neither do you. Nation building will fail without that magic wand.

And that leaves us with the Dhimmi/genocide choice. I can’t accept that. I will not submit nor will I reach for the Zyclon b.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:43 PM

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 10:27 PM

They aren’t going to change unless we forcibly change their religion.

Hopefully exposure to modernity will sway the masses. Hopefully they will evolve.

Hope isn’t a plan.

I have no such wand and neither do you. Nation building will fail without that magic wand.

And that leaves us with the Dhimmi/genocide choice. I can’t accept that. I will not submit nor will I reach for the Zyclon b.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:43 PM

No, as pointed out we could take this war seriously. If they attack we begin a sustained bomber campaign just as we did with Germany and Japan. Having your cities carpet bombed and your factories destroyed tends to catch the attention of politicians who might not otherwise be inclined to act against these terror cells.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 10:47 PM

Re sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 10:47 PM

No, as pointed out we could take this war seriously.

That would be great. It also means not abandoning the field in Afghanistan on anyone elses terms other than our own.

If they attack we begin a sustained bomber campaign just as we did with Germany and Japan.

Sure, we can send out B-17s to bomb the Taliban’s factories and aircraft carriers to sink their Navy. Oh wait…. They have neither. They are happy in the dark ages.

Having your cities carpet bombed and your factories destroyed tends to catch the attention of politicians who might not otherwise be inclined to act against these terror cells.

Really? We had our cities bombed and now our politicians are contemplating not acting against terror cells by leaving. Speaking of leaving I’ve got to walk the dog and collect some cool points.
‘Night all.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:59 PM

That would be great. It also means not abandoning the field in Afghanistan on anyone elses terms other than our own.

So what?

Fighting a pointless and futile campaign to stabilize Afghanistan isn’t worth any blood or treasure. Doing so due to pride is just silly.

If they attack we begin a sustained bomber campaign just as we did with Germany and Japan.

Sure, we can send out B-17s to bomb the Taliban’s factories and aircraft carriers to sink their Navy. Oh wait…. They have neither. They are happy in the dark ages.

Saudi Arabia does, so does Iran, Egypt and the other nations who make the terror campaign against the west possible.

Having your cities carpet bombed and your factories destroyed tends to catch the attention of politicians who might not otherwise be inclined to act against these terror cells.

Really? We had our cities bombed and now our politicians are contemplating not acting against terror cells by leaving. Speaking of leaving I’ve got to walk the dog and collect some cool points.
‘Night all.

V7_Sport on March 26, 2012 at 10:59 PM

Staying in Afghanistan isn’t a test of manhood. Acting against terror cells is a certain way of losing the war. They will never run out of people willing to fight and if we restrict our actions to just the Jihadists rather than their enablers its already a lost cause. We didn’t fight the Japanese armed forces and leave the nation of Japan alone and if we had they would have emerged victorious from that war.

sharrukin on March 26, 2012 at 11:09 PM

msupertas on March 26, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Show Karzai the picture of Nazibullah hanging and get out fast. We can’t seed western style democracy in that hell hole.

antisocial on March 26, 2012 at 11:14 PM

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