Quotes of the day
posted at 8:00 pm on March 25, 2012 by Allahpundit
“Atheists, non-theists, secularists and others who say they believe in reason, not God, gathered Saturday on the Mall for the first Reason Rally, where they pledged to stand up for their beliefs in a society that they say sometimes views them with skepticism and distrust…
“Organizers said the aim of the rally was twofold: to unite individuals with similar beliefs and to show the American public that the number of people who don’t believe in God is large and growing.
“‘We have the numbers to be taken seriously,’ said Paul Fidalgo, spokesman for the Center for Inquiry, which promotes scientific method and reasoning and was one of the organizations sponsoring the rally. ‘We’re not just a tiny fringe group.’
“According to the American Religious Identification Survey in 2008, the number of people who claim no specific religious belief was 34 million, 15 percent of the U.S. adult population.”
“Many people do not understand that it is possible to lead a meaningful, happy life as a heathen, but we maintain that it is and can point to any number of atheist philosophers and thinkers who have explained why this is so. But such meaning and contentment does not inevitably follow from becoming a heathen. Ours is a universe without guarantees of redemption or salvation and sometimes people have terrible lives or do terrible things and thrive. On such occasions, we have no consolation. That is the dark side of accepting the truth, and we are prepared to acknowledge it. We are heathens because we value living in the truth. But that does not mean that we pretend that always makes life easy or us happy. If the evidence were to show that religious people are happier and healthier than us, we would not see that as any reason to give up our convictions…
“We believe in not being tone-deaf to religion and to understand it in the most charitable way possible. So we support religions when they work to promote values we share, including those of social justice and compassion. We are respectful and sympathetic to the religious when they arrive at their different conclusions on the basis of the same commitment to sincere, rational, undogmatic inquiry as us, without in any way denying that we believe them to be false and misguided. We are also sympathetic to religion when its effects are more benign than malign. We appreciate that commitment to truth is but one value and that a commitment to compassion and kindness to others is also of supreme importance. We are not prepared to insist that it is indubitably better to live guided by such values allied with false beliefs than it is to live without such values but also without false belief.
“Our willingness to accept what is good in religion is balanced by an equally honest commitment to be critical of it when necessary. We object when religion invokes mystery to avoid difficult questions or to obfuscate when clarity is needed. We do not like the way in which “people of faith” tend to huddle together in an unprincipled coalition of self-interest, even when that means liberals getting into bed with homophobes and misogynists. We think it is disingenuous for religious people to talk about the reasonableness of their beliefs and the importance of values and practice, while drawing a veil over their embrace of superstitious beliefs. In these and other areas, we assert the right and need to make civil but acute criticisms.”
“Then Dawkins got to the part where he calls on the crowd not only to challenge religious people but to ‘ridicule and show contempt’ for their doctrines and sacraments, including the Eucharist, which Catholics believe becomes the body of Christ during Mass.
“That was a step further than Craig Lowery, a Dawkins fan, said he’s willing to go. Lowery, of Washington, D.C., applauded but admitted he’s not a confrontational atheist, saying:
“‘I might make fun of them in my head but I wouldn’t say it. Most people, religious or otherwise, are good people.’”
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Seems to me it takes a lot of faith to be an atheist.
lynncgb on March 26, 2012 at 8:55 AM
At least you’re willing to admit it. Good job!
I contend that the only thing that exists in this universe which either requires or desires your faith are con men, frauds and charlatans trying to deceive you with otherwise unconvincing lies.
That’s why it promises unimaginable rewards only for those who are easily fooled, and that’s why it threatens a fate worse than death to those with the temerity to try to understand it, who ask too many questions, or who dare to peek at that man behind the forbidden curtain.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 8:57 AM
It doesn’t take faith to disbelieve something someone has posited. The religious are the ones who are positing that a god exists for sure, and that they know his name and his revelations.
Atheists just call bull$hit on it.
If you claimed that you had flown without the use of a plane or wings or whatever, does it take faith to disbelieve it?
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 9:00 AM
Oh Happy Day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD2D6eter7M
lynncgb on March 26, 2012 at 9:01 AM
Awesome. Thank you.
And to all the rest, Axe, basil9, et al.
Kinda puts the Mall “event” in its proper perspective reading your musings.
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 9:01 AM
And YOU call bull?
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 9:06 AM
I don’t know if this has been said already but it sounds a bit like:
Fallon on March 26, 2012 at 9:06 AM
Same spirit. Your instincts are correct.
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM
I don’t believe in the existence of atheists.
I believe they are simply angry, lonely people with lives so empty they need to lash out at others.
Roy Rogers on March 26, 2012 at 9:10 AM
I believe this is an example of what is called pop psychology used in order to explain something people can’t fathom.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 9:14 AM
What I’m demanding is tolerance for those who believe in a higher being. Putting a crucified santa claus in the “holiday display” on the Loudon County courthouse lawn was nothing more than mocking Christianity that did not respect the rights of those who believe in Christ. In other words, it’s fine for non-believers to be non-believers but that doesn’t give them the right to attack those who hold a different view.
Happy Nomad on March 26, 2012 at 9:18 AM
I loved the movie Enemy Mine, lol, but all I remember is “You OOgly.”
Fallon on March 26, 2012 at 9:27 AM
“‘We have the numbers to be taken seriously,’ said Paul Fidalgo, spokesman for the Center for Inquiry, which promotes scientific method and reasoning and was one of the organizations sponsoring the rally.’”
Meh, neither the numbers nor the argument have ye.
He has used the scientific method to determine there is no God? I wonder what kind of experiment performed he conduct to prove that.
“There is no god and I hate him.”
Akzed on March 26, 2012 at 9:32 AM
Atheism is a fad, and like other fads it will go out of fashion. Not that atheism has ever been that popular it generally leads to mass death SEE Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Castro ect…. The numbers are small the non practice of religion, doesn’t equal a lack of belief in an Omnipotent Almighty.
Dr Evil on March 26, 2012 at 9:33 AM
Just shake the dust off our sandals. Seems strange, tho, that they are using this point in time to come forward and be as vocal as they are.
Kissmygrits on March 26, 2012 at 9:34 AM
At what point, did I say that you were not moarl.. I just said the reason for that, isn’t the one you believe it to be..
and with all due respect to the founders, who were strict believers in the natural law theory, I don’t believe in it much.. I do believe we were edowed by our creater aka GOD, with “certain unalienable Rights” that’s no stretch…
but to reject God, say he doesn’t exist, yet then turn around and say you know natural law from “birth”.. because you were “infused with it”?
uh.. yeah, you reject God, yet claim moral and ethical thinking were directly infused into at birth… by what?
Sweet Mother Gia?
If you mean instinctive, I reject that.. I’m a parent, and no child is born knowing that beating his playmate with the toy T-Rex is immoral.. that’s comical.. then to say..
Infused by what or whom?.. your parents? That would support my understanding. By any other source than God… you really need to form a clearer reason why that would be true. Ethics are nurture, not nature, parents know this.
The Founders recognized natural law, but they also granted a huge sawth to God the creater too.. so our view is at least the equal in the eyes of the founders, as they so in the Declarition.
If you mean discovered by observation of nature, that too, to me is a cop out..
Why, is admitting morality has roots deeply woven into the past of religions, Jewish and Christian, that atheists abhor so much?
admitting the truth of your beginnings isn’t a sin.. so why not admit what’s patently obvious to most, rather than claim, cause some 16/17 century philosopher saw an eagle do this… etc etc so it must be a natural law….. that’s just silly.. so Clarence Thomas genius he is, and I will have to disagree,.. though I thought he was a church going man?
mark81150 on March 26, 2012 at 9:35 AM
So . . . this is ALL one great big “cosmic accident?” (uh . . . right . . . that makes sense . . . NOT!)
Then . . . there is NO meaning at all to anything ( . . . I mean, really, then it’s all –as one commenter said above bull$hehite.
So . . . then why do you care?
rebuzz on March 26, 2012 at 9:42 AM
They simply took the numbers from the percentage of the people who identify as religious, subtracted the rest and co-opted the remaining numbers 15%. It doesn’t work that way just because someone isn’t religious doesn’t mean they don’t believe in God.
Why are they inflating their numbers? It’s like the little dog who pees high on the wall so when other dogs pass by they think that the little dog is another big dog – so a threat. But they aren’t a threat as much as they are pest and nuisances. In fact that’s what Dawkins is telling them to do by his ‘ridicule and show contempt’ remark. Annoy the believers, make them pay attention to you. Except they aren’t especially interesting people, and Dawkins is a bitter old bore.
Dr Evil on March 26, 2012 at 9:43 AM
Yes, and you’ve been conned.
zoyclem on March 26, 2012 at 9:51 AM
Took the time to dig it up. :) Now I’m tripping on how memory works.
Thanks. :)
INC was in the groove, wasn’t she? Long night. Couple hours — poof. I’m a pumpkin for a while.
Axe on March 26, 2012 at 9:54 AM
Why?
Axe on March 26, 2012 at 9:57 AM
*re. “This point in time,” I mean.
Axe on March 26, 2012 at 9:58 AM
\
Follow the money. Dawkins hawks atheism, it’s how he makes his shekels, books, speaking etc…If you take a look at secular Europe the socialist democratic model, they have been using, is in it’s death throes. Dawkins thinks that the U.S. is ripe to transplant his brand of social failure. After all that’s what people like Bill Maher promote: Americans are stupid, and anyone could be President of this f****** country. I stated in another thread Bill Maher’s audience is around 1 million out of 29 million HBO subscribers in the U.S. but HBO is in 151 countries so he doesn’t even have a large following in the U.S. and neither does Dawkins. There have been cranks through out history selling their brand of snake oil. The Internet has allowed for mass communication, the cranks are just being fingered earlier then in the old days, when old media behaved as a gate keeper.
For example, If anyone asked Bill Maher, why he does what he does, he would probably respond “It’s a living” he’s worth about 23 million dollars so he would be stating a fact. It’s always about the Benjamins, always follow the money.
Dr Evil on March 26, 2012 at 9:58 AM
The 15% number is bogus, because as others have pointed out you can’t simply grab every single person who said, not religious and say that means athiest,.. a great number would be agnostic, and a greater number just not into organized churches, but still believe in God.
If they want accurate numbers than straight ask people, are you an atheist or not… the point they want to make is they have political clout,.. not really, but they evidently think they need it.
mark81150 on March 26, 2012 at 9:58 AM
Well, that would at least be intellectually honest but, to date, I have seen no such attempt to do so. To make an actual attempt at an intellectual defense of their philosophical position? Haven’t yet seen one from any of these guys but, admittedly, I haven’t read all their writings or heard all their speeches.
What I have heard and read, particularly here on this thread, are not arguments FOR their position but OBJECTIONS TO the opposing arguments, which is both intellectually lazy and intellectually dishonest because it stakes out a philosophical position but masquerades as being neutral, so it needs not be defended, which it is not.
But guys like Sauer can’t seem to see that, I guess.
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 9:58 AM
Athiests still wonder why even people like me who aren’t hardcore religious types think they’re annoying. For some reason in their profound need to prove how right they are to believe in no God athiests also missed the principle of “live & let live.”
I find athiests more irritating than the people who knock on my door with their religious handouts. Those people seem more caring and less arrogant than many athiests.
katiejane on March 26, 2012 at 10:03 AM
If I had shown you compelling “proof” that it happened, then yes, it does require more faith in your own judgement than in whatever evidence I may offer. IMO,God offers proof of His existence everyday. Just step outside your own front door and marvel at what is all around you. Am I supposed to believe that all of nature just got that way by the happenstances of the universe? It would be the same as telling me the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel just got that way by accident. Non-believers need to see with better eyes,and maybe stop thinking that God has to explain Himself to their satisfaction.
lynncgb on March 26, 2012 at 10:04 AM
Yeah, man. There’s something especially encouraging to me when I discover that such an erudite and knowledgable defender of the faith is a lady.
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 10:06 AM
Correction, I WAS conned.
Look, I’m not the one who’s listening to people professing that bronze aged bedouins and shepherds had it right when it comes to this god we can all imagine.
I WAS conned when I was a Christian, because clergymen are the real con men, frauds, and charlatans…, but no more.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 10:07 AM
OK, let’s hear the logical progression that took you from faith to non-faith that doesn’t rely on objection TO that faith.
We’ll wait.
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 10:13 AM
Each religion relies on faith right Cleo? They all profess that they know exactly who this god is and what he wants of us, but when you question them on what they say and they don’t have a good answer, or can’t answer your questions, they get exasperated and come back with the standard fall back position for all religions and tell you that you just have to have faith… Do you not see the disconnect there?
Anyone who tells you to just have faith, doesn’t know.
So if they don’t know, then why listen to them?
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 10:34 AM
How much of this is really about “reason” for many, and not just getting even with whomever turned them bitter against people of faith,, you don’t use words like conman and charlatan to explain your problem with religions in general..
We have some lapsed Christians here who are bitter.. easier to understand. I was agnostic for years because of a lousy pastor who stupidly put guilt on my mother.. Her first born child, my sister died from bone cancer in 79, I was a pal bearer at her funeral and I was 19 at the time. The Pastor told her straight up, maybe God wouldn’t have taken your daughter, if you had attended church more often, tithed more faithfully..
So yeah I was bitter for awhile.. and no, I didn’t kill the guy, just threw him and his tag a long out into the street..
Bad people can represent themselves as the keepers of God’s words, but to say that is in any way an example of true Christianity, is like blaming all atheists for Hitler and communism, outrageous and unfair.
Dawkins is an intolerant old putz with a tin ear.. they claim they are no threat and just honest people who want to be heard, so they feature a speaker who embraces the worst stereotype if an atheist.. a windbag who thinks verbally abusing us is the way to go.. when it just makes us feel even more like we’re under assault from the secular left,.. the secular right usually just leaves us alone.
mark81150 on March 26, 2012 at 10:41 AM
Not in public.
Ah, projection! Just because you were, doesn’t mean we’ve all been lied to and can’t see the truth for ourselves. Just because you don’t know there’s a heaven and a hell doesn’t mean I don’t know it to be true.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 10:41 AM
Right back at you Esthier (on whatever helps you sleep at night), but you DON’T know, you just have faith and faith is not knowledge.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 10:48 AM
Pot, kettle…
It’s very obvious why you believe what you believe. Same with all who specifically lash out at religion as though it were a tangible foe.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 10:49 AM
Atheists in Muslim countries say it to Muslims, atheists in Christian nations say it to Christians, atheists in Hindu countries say it to Hindus.
And yes, they do it in public…
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 10:57 AM
Now you’re claiming to know what I know? That’s rich. Again, you’re not me. Stop projecting your feelings onto me.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 11:01 AM
Right, Sauer. But, the question is: how does each ARRIVE at that faith?
There’s faith…and then there’s BLIND faith. Allow me to illustrate:
Take Islam, for example. The entire enterprise of the Islamic faith rests on the claim of one man who claims to have heard voices in a cave and those voices were from an angel of God.
OK. Let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he did, in fact, hear voices. Now, there’s no way for the honest sceptic to corroborate the additional claim that the pronouncements were, in fact, from an angel of God and not from, say, a malevolent spirit out to deceive. There were no other eye-witnesses, no prior multiple announcements that this event would take place exactly as recorded including details that would not have been possible to know prior to the occurrence, and, subsequently, the behavior of the main recipient of these visitations might suggest to an objective observer that the Deity proposed was not be necessarily benevolent.
Additionally, his behavior also calls his own credibility into question.
Following me here? You see what’s required as far as “faith” is concerned? It’s blind, that is, without corroborative foundation.
Do I need to illustrate the alternative for you?
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 11:03 AM
That sounds more like an acknowledgement of what you were disagreeing with earlier seeing as we’re not in a Muslim country.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 11:03 AM
Rhetorical nonsense..
Because you can hammer a peron of faith with endless questions of “why” like an annoying 6 year old.. and the person finally has enough and answers faith child, faith,.. you take that as “proof” that they are lying to you or clueless?
Great, I’ll use that trick when questioning an atheist..
Why?
why?
why?
why?
why?
why?
why?
and if you give up in frustration and throw up your hands… AHA…. gotcha..
isn’t that what you are doing?
Einstein would fail that kind of test, designed to elicit an angry and frustrated response, designed to allow you to walk away convinced YOU showed them..
well no, you didn’t. I asked those kinds of questions at six.. at 12, I didn’t have too.. at 19, arrogant and full of answers, I stopped listening,.. at 29 then 35 I buried my parents and relearned I knew little.. at 37 I found the light, at 52, I sit here and have to explain it to others, that arrogance isn’t a kind of wisdom… because you question, doesn’t mean the answers are wrong, just that you dislike them so you claim superiority and walk away.
But not getting the “correct” answers.. what exactly would you consider a right answer?
mark81150 on March 26, 2012 at 11:25 AM
The story of Islam is no different than the story of Christianity or any other religion Cleo. You just happen to see their story as being more implausible than your own. You choose to believe your own religions story OVER the story they propose.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 11:29 AM
Nice, that part. I think it might even unfold a little. It has a folded look. :)
Axe on March 26, 2012 at 11:30 AM
I had a feeling this thread was still going..LOL
Atheist threads usually do.
SauerK get some rest man…you have been arguing for hours.
bazil9 on March 26, 2012 at 11:42 AM
Thanks for proving my point.
Not to worry, God still loves you.
Yes, like AP.
Bubba Redneck on March 26, 2012 at 11:50 AM
We all choose to believe something over someone else’s theory. You’re not exempt.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 11:51 AM
Actually I find the same behavior.
Belief in God brings with it a sense of humility and humbleness as well as a sense peace.
Atheists lack this.
The ones I know are perpetually angry.
Hellva a way to go through life.
Bubba Redneck on March 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM
*sigh*
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 12:00 PM
I know little of other faiths, just that the Jewish faith is the faith of Christ, so I hold them as God’s chosen people as they are often called. I really do not see how as a Christian, you cannot hold them as special in your heart as I do.. It’s not being condescending, if it’s the truth, I do believe we are in no position to judge them.,.. just to accept our differences and be friends in the worship of the same Heavenly father.
The other faiths, I just don’t know very much..
The agnostics are often friendly and supportive, easy people to like. The atheists however, are usually blunt as Hell.. telling you that the faith you hold is a joke, that you’re a child abuser for sending your kids to church, and that every traditional form of Christmas celebration we’ve had in public for a couple of centuries is under assault… why?.. because they are offended we living in a country with 92% believing in God in some way, must hide our religious beliefs in a closet and never ever mention God, because their little lily white ears can’t take the strain of hearing God’s message..
we however can have THEIR message rammed into our faces every day.
They’ll move Heaven and earth to tell you that THAT’S DIFFERENT.. not really no.. it’s unproven opinion.. because you can no more “prove” God doesn’t exist, than you can stop being annoying.
mark81150 on March 26, 2012 at 12:01 PM
What I choose to believe is that there may be a god, because who really knows for sure right? We have inclinations towards thinking that might be the case but that’s as far as any of us can really go, after that you need faith and as I said faith is not knowledge.
This is above and beyond any particular religion because before you choose a religion you choose to believe in a god as a possibility, but you don’t need to go any further than that… You don’t have to ask yourself what that god wants from you and then turn around and answer yourself because then it’s not god answering you, it’s you.
It is when people take the inclination towards believing in god and then erecting religions around that that we all begin to have problems.
If you want to believe in a god, fine, I don’t have much of a problem with that. It’s when people start erecting dogma and rituals around it that we begin to have problems as people.
Religions divide as people, they force us to choose sides in an argument that can never be resolved and often ends up in conflict and strife for those who live it..
What you fail to realize is that when an atheist says there is no god, they aren’t saying that there ISN’T a god, just that the gods of each religion being practiced aren’t it.
They’re too provincial, too local to the area of the planet that that religion began. They reflect more the society of the people in question than anything else.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 12:12 PM
Proving non existence is completely impossible without actually being God. It is, however, theoretically possible to prove God does exist.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 12:16 PM
Maybe you do, but again, I’m not you. I need faith to believe that God’s plan is good for my life but no whatsoever to accept what’s right in front of me. And I’m not just talking about warm fuzzies. It’s a near mathematical impossibility that God does not exist.
Sure, you don’t have to, but if God is real, and you finally realize that, then you’re a complete idiot for assuming that fact is meaningless in your life.
And now you speak for all atheists? That seems about as likely as you accurately representing me.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 12:22 PM
In addition to that, there’s also the fact that he (the meat suit guy) would have to believe that dozens or hundreds of historically known people entered into a massive simultaneous conspiracy, from which they had nothing to gain, and that they remained so loyal to the conspiracy that none of them left the group, or gave up the secret, even upon being imprisoned, tortured, fed to lions, etc. It would require a lot more faith than 9/11 trutherism, for example.
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 12:31 PM
As an agnostic, I find people like saurkraut and dawkins to be disgusting. They are nothing more than intolerant bigots who think it’s their right to tell others how to think.
Hard Right on March 26, 2012 at 12:34 PM
So, you claim to have *knowledge* of the non-existence of God? Or, is that simply what you believe,ie; have faith in?
Then, you don’t object if people choose to believe differently than you. You just want them to hide it and stay silent.
That’s big of you.
Solaratov on March 26, 2012 at 12:53 PM
You’d perhaps prefer a more sophisticated, more worldly God?
That makes sense.
Solaratov on March 26, 2012 at 12:57 PM
@Solaratov any hyper dimensional ultra powerful god that demands worship on pain of eternal punishment is a dick. #justsayin.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 1:44 PM
It is only a problem for people who, for whatever reason, won’t comply with the bare minimum necessary to signal to his neighbors that he’s a team player. And very little is actually required for that in most communities in the US. In fact, it requires absolutely nothing but that you say you are a Christian. Often not even that–people in much of the country will assume you are unless you specifically state otherwise!
I appreciate that atheists are trying to erect their own community, but I question whether that can work out given the low threshold they’ve already refused to cross. I also understand how threatening this seems to religious communities, but c’mon. Atheists require more for “membership” than Christians do! The Christian club doesn’t actually require belief–it’s never tested (unless you’re striving for prominence in the community, which requires more investment) because people are satisfied with the simple claim. Atheism, however, invites scrutiny, hostility and ostracism, as it directly challenges the legitimacy of the test. (Agnostics, however, are cowards, and thus tolerable in stasis.)
People can prattle on about the “logic” of their choice, using the term as loosely as they do, but it isn’t much more than a rationalization for what boils down to tribal signalling.
VerbumSap on March 26, 2012 at 1:50 PM
No, I don’t claim that a god or gods don’t exist. I claim that the man made gods don’t exist.
What constitutes man made gods? Gods that were posited way back in the bronze age and before. Gods that we find being worshiped in church and synagogue pews, on floors of Mosques, etc.
What constitutes man made Gods?
You know you’re dealing with a man made god when that god demands stupid things of us like women who menstruate needing to sacrifice two birds, demand that when men rape women that they be forced to marry those women, you know, things like that.
No, I want people to stop believing the religion and be proud of not believing it any longer…
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 1:55 PM
I want a god that is more universal… Not so earthly bound. One that doesn’t pick sides in petty human arguments. One that doesn’t create us imperfect and then demand perfection. One that doesn’t drown the entirety of humanity because they’re so wicked or choose to send someone to an eternity in a hell of his creation because that person doesn’t believe in him.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 2:00 PM
Some days I can’t believe the level of stupidity people will descend to; and considering what a pessimist I am, that’s an achievement for the Atheists.
For the record, I was raised Methodist, and am now agnostic having lost faith in the Judeo-Christian Religion in general. So you’d think I’d be on their side, right? Wrong.
Lots of people believe lots of stuff I think is wrong. I don’t rail on about how Astrology is bunk or psychics are fakers or black cats aren’t unlucky or whatever… why would I care about religion more?
IMO if you’re a decent person who believes in whatever you believe in; for all I know that is what helps you be and remain a decent person. Why would I take that away from you? To try to make you a more philosophically accurate jerk instead of a decent person who I think is wrong?
And if you’re not a decent person; fixing your religion won’t stop you from being a jerk. I’ve seen people be nicer after they “found God”, I’ve never seen anyone who was a nicer, kinder, or better person after they “found” atheism. Not one single incident.
So why would I engage in a “crusade” (if you’ll pardon the term) to work toward a goal of a world with more jerks? Are the atheists working on this not dealing with enough jerks in their daily lives? Do they think we have a shortage?
Some people I just do not get.
gekkobear on March 26, 2012 at 2:04 PM
LOL what? So your claim is that nobody believes in Christianity, we’re all just pretending because we think our neighbors really believe?
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM
And why should we care what you want? Shouldn’t we be more concerned with which God actually is, than which hypothetical alternative gods we might have invented if anybody had asked us?
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM
@joe_doufu no you should absolutely not waste one minute worrying about gods and what they want. What would the point be, that would be like asking the sun if it liked burnt offerings. it’s ridiculous and silly to imagine that other worldly beings would care or involve themselves in your life. Does the cow worship man? do children worship their parents? it is only arrogance and superstition that makes mankind think that it is being watched over. Solve your own problems and talk to your neighbors instead.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 2:20 PM
But what if the sun did want burnt offerings, and could really ruin your day if you didn’t provide them.
You’d want to know, wouldn’t you?
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM
Why can’t you just be content with thinking there is a god and talk to everyone around you about how to be. Reason out what the best way to live your life is?
Separate church/religion, AKA the philosophy of morals and ethics, from god.
REASON it out, don’t claim that your god said this is the way to be.
As Bishop Lancelot Andrewes once said, “The nearer the church, the further from god.”
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 2:38 PM
@joe_doufu nope. let the sun burn it’s own candles.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 2:38 PM
No, I never said that. Rationalization does not have to be insincere. People construct all kinds of arguments that they absolutely believe to be true, but which conveniently reinforce a basic self-interest. And even marginal Christians aren’t usually pretending (although some do); it’s just not something they spend much time thinking about.
VerbumSap on March 26, 2012 at 2:39 PM
@joe
Why are the first four commandments, of your gods “big ten”, wasted on the vanity/jealousy of your god? SUREly god could put other commandments in there besides those, like say maybe thou shalt not have slaves? thou shalt not bugger young children under your care?
Anyone can make a better ten commandments… Try these
1 Do not do to others what you would not want them to do unto you.
2 In all things, strive to cause no harm.
3 Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
4 Do not overlook evil or shrink from administering justice, but always be ready to forgive wrongdoing freely admitted and honestly regretted.
5 Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
6 Always seek to be learning something new.
7 Test all things; always check your ideas against the facts, and be ready to discard even a cherished belief if it does not conform to them.
8 Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
9 Form independent opinions on the basis of your own reason and experience; do not allow yourself to be led blindly by others.
10 Question everything.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM
@VerbumSap your argument really seems to just be “say anything to fit in”, isn’t that a bit of an odd way to go about justifying your morality system?
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 2:49 PM
Your argument is contradictory.
“Reason it out” does not click with “be content” in ignorance of an important topic, and limit your search for truth to the opinions of “everyone around you”. If you love reason, and believe (or even wonder if) God exists, you should not be content to remain ignorant, and the first thing you should do is go to the damn library and read the arguments of great thinkers on the topic.
So, if your great enlightened philosophy is (a) contentment in ignorance, and (b) basing your beliefs about Truth on the opinions of your neighbors… I think I’ll stick to my approach.
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 3:04 PM
Can cows and children learn nothing from even average adults? If a parent tells a child no, even without explanation, is the child correct to disobey? Should the cow refuse to eat just because it didn’t provide its own nourishment?
I’d argue that many children do in fact worship their parents and rightfully so. Parents bring you into this world and make sure you can stay in it at least until you can be a god to your own children.
Feel free to pee against the wind just to prove you aren’t beholden to it, but you’re the only one who will end up reeking.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 3:08 PM
Yes. He could. But he didn’t. What is it that you don’t get about the concept of Truth? I don’t care to read a book about the hypothetical god that you, SK, wish were there. I care to know about the actual God and what He actually is like.
Or maybe?… “Thou shalt not copy-paste the same stuff on every thread”
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 3:10 PM
No, it merely explains why people are so invested in their religions and so hostile to atheists. I’m not a part of anyone’s tribe, and while I prefer to keep my beliefs to myself, I don’t lie about it.
VerbumSap on March 26, 2012 at 3:20 PM
@Esthier those of us lucky enough to grow up realize one day that our parents are just people. Worshiping them is as pointless as worshiping your food because it sustains you. It’s part of a cycle not the pinnacle.
as for the rest of your thoughts it really doesn’t have anything to do with the thread.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 3:21 PM
In essence:
It’s wrong to make god in our own image, but as a man, these are the rules I would come up with, and you should try them.
But we already know projection is your strong suit.
I’ve never understood why atheists always think God is so easy to understand that they get exactly why he made the rules he did and believe they can do better. If God exists, then his knowledge and wisdom is such that we may as well be cows for as much as we’d understand it.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 3:24 PM
@VerbumSap I’ve been more vocal as the tenets of separation of church and state have been attacked. I like to let people have their own ideas, but not at the expense of destroying the Republic.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 3:25 PM
So you start by mocking someone for striving and failing to adhere to very strict moral standards; then give a list of more strict moral standards.
Well that makes sense; nothing is more evil and wrong than someone hypocritically giving a list moralizing to others telling them how to live when they themselves don’t live by their lists. Thankfully YOU would never do something so foolish… right?
1 Do not do to others what you would not want them to do unto you.
So you want people to point out your every moral flaw and weakness, right? Can do, not a problem. Thanks for clarifying you want this by both making this list, and doing exactly that in your comment above.
2 In all things, strive to cause no harm.
Except for mocking people, which is perfectly ok? Right?
3 Treat your fellow human beings, your fellow living things, and the world in general with love, honesty, faithfulness and respect.
Except when you’re arguing on the internet; then derision and scorn are more appropriate? I must have missed your comments filled with love and respect.
5 Live life with a sense of joy and wonder.
Then why are you here arguing with people; go live with joy and wonder and not the snark you have here.
6 Always seek to be learning something new.
And you do this by lecturing people on unknowable things… interesting path you’ve chosen.
8 Never seek to censor or cut yourself off from dissent; always respect the right of others to disagree with you.
Except for religion; where people have no right to disagree with you; because you have the ONE TRUTH… right?
You’ve failed to live up to more than half of your “new ten commandments” with your comments on this post alone. Maybe you’d care to rethink your arguments?
Or are you allowed to point out the flaws in others; but others shouldn’t do the same to you? I’m thinking your new commandment #1 covers this doesn’t it?
gekkobear on March 26, 2012 at 3:27 PM
Yes, when we grow up, we stop with the hero worship altogether, but your question was about children, which is appropriate, as most of us will eventually become adults and thus our parents’ equals, but we will never be God’s equal.
If life worked that way, with children who could never grow up, it would be even more important that children show reverence for their parents. Wisdom is also understanding where to go when you cannot solve your own problems, even if it means prostrating yourself before a higher authority and agreeing to live under that authority.
That’s simply logical.
Esthier on March 26, 2012 at 3:35 PM
I love it. The atheists gathered to better organize their faith based religion. These people can no more prove there is no God than I can prove God exists. That is why it is called faith.
It always seem to startle the smug “believers in reason” to have pointed out to them they are, in fact, members of a loosely organized religion whose faith is there is no God. They are neither different nor better than any other believer.
RickCaird on March 26, 2012 at 3:43 PM
@Esthier have you ever met god? How do you know you’re not an equal? Asking an invisible being to telepathically guide you doesn’t seem to be that wise seeing as you have no way of verifying that the responding voice isn’t your own.
If we were designed we were designed poorly using parts gleaned from every other living thing on the planet, we don’t need an invisible friend to make us feel better, we just have to reach out to the real people that are all around us.
Setting yourself up to always be the junior partner seems like a really silly system where you put up with any abuse or destructive behavior because “you just wouldn’t understand”. So far when we turn our eyes and minds to understand something, we always come up with a better solution then the one left in the various holy books.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 3:45 PM
@RickCaird you’re really just not understanding that people don’t have to have a religion. Is a chess club a religion? is a book club?
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 3:47 PM
Zeke, doesn’t it strike you as a bit silly to lecture Christians about our stupid beliefs, when you have apparently no idea what we believe? We actually do know quite a bit about God, and why His behavior is not “abuse”, and we have an abundance of evidence that supports it. I dare you to go read any half-decent apologetic work and then report back to Hot Air.
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 3:52 PM
The point Esthier is that the rules you say came from god, DIDN’T come from god, but from men in the bronze ages.
What has happened since is that we’ve grown OUT of bronze aged morals and ethics; all thanks to the enlightenment which brought about the freedom to REASON, and discuss, and thoughtfully apply personal experience to everyday life through introspection and empathy.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 3:58 PM
Unlike your list which lacks a coherent context outside of your own mind, they set the context for what follows, the central theme of which is concern for the rights and property of others, interestingly enough.
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 4:00 PM
You’re more interested in trying to poke holes and put words in my mouth than in serious debate gekko… Enough with the hyperbole and conjecture.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 4:01 PM
@joe_doufu i was raised fundamentalist christian, read the bible completely twice and spend a fair bit of time in the reddest state on the map. I’ve read quite a few apologists work and belong to an atheist book club that loves reading such things. (they had a monthly bible study but i could never attend.)
But the question still stands, if you hear or feel the voice of the holy spirit or god, or any spirit, how do you know it’s not your own? When i started questioning one of my big questions was how could we really evaluate an invisible being that claimed to be benevolent but never intervened or limited the amount of suffering a person could endure? With that question in mind I reread the bible and decided that if that god existed it couldn’t be benevolent or worthy of worship. Then the chain broke and I felt free for the first time in my life.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 4:02 PM
@Cleombrotus how can a law system that claims to be perfect sanction slavery and child brides?
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 4:03 PM
My first “commandment” condenses all of your gods commandments (minus the first four vainglorious ones) into the first of mine. The rest of them are just ways to be in life.
Does a god really need to impress you with 4 of the 10 being about himself?
I mean he’s GAWD isn’t he? Again I ask, why waste the first 4 so?
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM
Speak for yourself!
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 4:07 PM
There’s your first couple false premises right there.
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 4:08 PM
I believe this has been done.
Jews and Christians refer to it as Scripture.
Reason is a gift from God and is to be used as such, not a thing to be worshipped.
The French tried it and quite a few folks lost their heads over it.
Bubba Redneck on March 26, 2012 at 4:11 PM
On what authority do you conclude that your limited understanding of the Law is superior to that of Moses or God?
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 4:13 PM
So we can understand who He is.
God reveals His nature many times in Scripture.
It helps when having a relationship to understand the one you are having the relationship with.
Bubba Redneck on March 26, 2012 at 4:14 PM
@joe_doufu are you claiming it’s not in there, or that it’s ok because god said so?
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 4:18 PM
I can speak for you right now Joe… Do you believe women are lesser creatures? Do you believe it’s ok to trade and purchase slaves as described in the big book? Do you think women need to kill two birds when they menstruate?
If no, then you’ve grown out of bronze aged morals and ethics.
Sure, some of what they said is still true today like murdering being bad, stealing, etc… But these bronze age men aren’t batting 1000 anymore. Plenty of their morals and ethics have been proven wrong time and time again.
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 4:18 PM
LMFAO!
Show me the verse where god says slavery is disallowed! SHOW me! I really want to know!
SauerKraut537 on March 26, 2012 at 4:22 PM
Are any of those “morals” in the Bible?
Didn’t think so.
I’ll keep my Bronze Age morality, thank you.
You can have your 21st-century self-worship.
joe_doufu on March 26, 2012 at 4:23 PM
@joe_doufu joe, he’s quoting from the old testament, same as me. You claim to worship a divine unchanging god, who said all that was ok. In fact in Hebrews, and Romans they claim the law was perfect but that men just couldn’t handle it.
If the bible is god’s resume, I wouldn’t hire him. Specially since he claims that he put different languages on the earth to incite hatred and war so that men wouldn’t be able to understand and work with each other. I mean when you claim to be the prime source of strife in the world and then say you’re perfect and worthy of worship maybe you have your priorities messed up.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 4:28 PM
Zekecorian, what law system tells you that slavery and child brides are immoral?
Cleombrotus on March 26, 2012 at 4:32 PM
@Cleombrotus the american law system and our cultural morals. as well as personal disgust. If you want to defend these two things we should just stop now.
Zekecorlain on March 26, 2012 at 4:35 PM
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