Geraldo: Blame the hoodie for Trayvon Martin shooting as much as the shooter; Update: Florida law explained

posted at 11:00 am on March 23, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

As a gun-rights advocate, I constantly have to remind people that guns are a tool, not an entity with motives, and that the responsibility for its use lies with the shooter. For some reason, we have an impulse after tragedies to try to blame objects rather than people, or more likely, to blame everyone else (“society”) for the personal choices of an individual. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen it taken to the extent that Geraldo Rivera does in this morning’s Fox and Friends segment on Trayvon Martin’s death:

“I have a different take, Brian, on that,” Rivera said. “I believe that George Zimmerman, the overzealous neighborhood watch captain should be investigated to the fullest extent of the law and if he is criminally liable, he should be prosecuted. But I am urging the parents of black and Latino youngsters particularly to not let their children go out wearing hoodies. I think the hoodie is as much responsible for Trayvon Martin’s death as George Zimmerman was.”

According to Rivera, the so-called hoodie has negative connotations attached to it, which may inspire ill-advised reflexive reactions.

“When you see a kid walking down the street, particularly a dark skinned kid like my son Cruz who I constantly yelled at when he was going out wearing a damn hoodie or those pants around his ankles,” Rivera said. “Take that hood off. People look at you and what’s the instant identification? What’s the instant association? Its crime scene surveillance tapes. Every time you see someone stick up a 7-Eleven, the kid is wearing a hoodie. Every time you see a mugging on a surveillance camera or get the old lady in the alcove, it’s the kid with a hoodie. You have to recognize that this whole stylizing yourself as a gangsta — you’re going to be a gangsta wannabe? Well, people are going to perceive you as a menace. That’s what happens. It is an instant reflexive action.”

I’ve had a number of e-mails asking me to analyze the issues in the Martin/Zimmerman shooting. I’ve struggled with it, but I can assure readers that hoodies never came up in my calculations. I do get what Rivera is saying; I had this conversation with my nephew when he was a teenager, explaining that clothes are a statement of values that get communicated instantly to the people around him, especially to those who don’t know him. That doesn’t mean that baggy pants or a hoodie makes you complicit in your own death when someone shoots you for no other reason, however, and it’s a blame-the-victim impulse to make that argument.

Otherwise, this is a tough case to explain, in part because I’m much more familiar with Minnesota law than Florida law on self-defense. Under Minnesota law, Zimmerman would have been charged with some form of homicide, probably manslaughter, if the circumstances are what we have seen in the media. Minnesota law requires that the actor using lethal force in self-defense has to first be in reasonable fear of his life or of grave bodily harm, the latter of which means losing a limb, an eye, or significant maiming and not just getting one’s ass kicked. That requires some demonstration of lethality or threat of maiming before the shooting, not just a threatening motion.

Second, and equally importantly, the actor in a lethal deployment of self-defense has to not have contributed to the conflict that required it. This is where the difference between state laws might be an issue. In Minnesota, even under the Castle Doctrine law that Governor Mark Dayton vetoed, chasing down someone to shoot them would have been a clear violation of self-defense statutes and would probably result in manslaughter charges. I’m not sure how Florida’s Stand Your Ground law is written, though; it might allow someone who got threatened to chase the person who did the threatening with the intent of using deadly force. If so, that’s incredibly stupid, but it might explain why Zimmerman couldn’t get charged in this case. Stand Your Ground laws in general are supposed to allow people to defend themselves without having to demonstrate that retreat was impossible — in other words, avoiding the need to defend one’s self from the second-guessing of a district attorney later on whether the shooter had the opportunity to run and hope the potential attacker didn’t shoot, stab, or chase anyway. They aren’t supposed to allow shooters in this situation to chase down the threat and shoot, but again, I don’t know how Florida wrote its law.

My late friend Joel Rosenberg, who was also my carry-permit instructor, taught one lesson above all else: a carry permit was not a Junior G-Man badge, especially not in Minnesota. That seems to be a lesson Zimmerman didn’t learn, and Florida may need to modify its carry and self-defense statutes to make that much more clear.

Joel literally wrote the book on carry licensing in Minnesota, The Carry Book: Minnesota Edition.  Unfortunately Joel passed away before he could complete an edition that looked at the issue nationally, but even if you’re not in Minnesota, there is a ton of good advice for those who want to pursue carry licenses and handle firearms.  My particular favorite chapter of the book is titled, “Cowardice 201: A PhD Seminar in Advanced Staying Out of Trouble,” in which Joel reveals that the true secret of karate is to run faster than everyone else.  Self-defense starts with keeping out of situations where you will likely find yourself threatened.  Joel’s book is a sobering read, literally and figuratively.

Update: I forgot to mention another point about self-defense law in Minnesota. Once the threat ends, self-defense actions have to stop as well at that moment. That means that an antagonist who stops threatening lethality can’t be attacked with lethal force in self-defense.

Update II: A reader who has a carry permit in Florida e-mails a detailed response, which clarifies Florida law and shows that it’s much the same as Minnesota’s. What follows are his lengthy comments; I’m blockquoting where he quotes:

I have a Florida concealed weapon license. You said:

Minnesota law requires that the actor using lethal force in self-defense has to first be in reasonable fear of his life or of grave bodily harm, the latter of which means losing a limb, an eye, or significant maiming and not just getting one’s ass kicked. That requires some demonstration of lethality or threat of maiming before the shooting, not just a threatening motion.

The same is true in Florida.

A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

That means that you can use force (BUT NOT DEADLY FORCE) to proportionally defend against imminent use of force. So if someone cocks their fist back to punch you, you can beat them to the punch. You can’t #$%&ing shoot them because they were about to punch you.

However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony

So if someone is about to kill or severely main you or someone else, you can respond with deadly force. Again, the response has to be proportional to the threat.  read 776.013, as it contains a bunch of stipulations about the use of deadly force.

Finally, 776.041:

 The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Note #2… initially provokes the use of force against himself. That might apply here.

There is no situation where a confrontation you initiated, in which you were never threatened with mortal danger, can be legally ended by you using lethal force. Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter or maybe even second degree murder under Florida law.

My late friend Joel Rosenberg, who was also my carry-permit instructor, taught one lesson above all else: a carry permit was not a Junior G-Man badge, especially not in Minnesota. That seems to be a lesson Zimmerman didn’t learn, and Florida may need to modify its carry and self-defense statutes to make that much more clear.

They do make it clear, and the brochure you get when getting a license spells it out explicitly (this is an offical State of Florida brochure). They contain case studies where lethal force is not justified. Like it talks about one case where someone chased a robber off of their property and shot them. They were charged. You can use a
gun to stop a forcible felony, not bring someone to justice after they’ve fled. There is a case where neighbors get into an argument and one neighbor swings a garden hose at the other, who replies by shooting him. Charged. You can’t use a gun if you’re not in mortal danger. The brochure clearly explains that a CWL does not make you a law enforcement officer. I got this hammered into me really hard in the course I took (which is mandated by the state).

Here’s one of the pamphlets:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/forms/P-00090-DeadlyForce-0911.pdf

[end update II]


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To me the bigger story is the race mongers Sharpton and Farrahkan calling for violence. Or MSNBC absurdly trying to spin this into some political story and blaming Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, and Rick Santourom. Not only is that disgusting and totally out of bounds but it stupid and has no place in this discussion. Where is the media calling these thugs out and demanding Sharpton be thrown off the air, or the msnbc host be kicked off the air? Remember the fake disgust of the left after the Giffords shooting? This is even worse in my opinion.

Ellis on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Let’s face it, Zimmerman is going down. However, it looks like he is going down because the mob demands it, not because he committed a crime. There could be a calm, cool, rational investigation: instead, we will get trial by Al, Obama, and the mob.

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 11:49 AM

that and apparently he falls into a new racial category.

“White Hispanic”. The news media actually reported this.

ToddPA on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Like I said, denying these rules exist is idiotic.

BobMbx on March 23, 2012 at 11:55 AM

Rules? So I guess Zimmerman was enforcing the rules? You wear a hoodie, you’re a criminal and you deserve death. Gotcha. Nope, certainly no need for any kind of a civil rights movement against racism. The rules are set. Wear a hoodie, be prepared to get popped.

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Every right is technically granted by the government. I hope you can understand that.

nonpartisan on March 23, 2012 at 11:50 AM

Fail. Fail, fail, fail. So much fail.

The number one reason why those on the left think free stuff is a right and denying others their liberties is A-OK in pursuit of said free stuff. Read the Constitution and the enumerated rights. They don’t say granted to the people, they say these rights shall not be infringed upon. Rights can only be taken by the government, not granted. When we determine who deserves the right to bear arms we are taking rights.

NotCoach on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

I am convinced that race played a part in this man’s death. What I am not yet certain of is whether race played a role in the police response. I support our men and women in blue, but it is quite true that police departments can be extremely stubborn especially when a sloppy investigation has taken place.

McDuck on March 23, 2012 at 11:58 AM

It’s nice to read the comments from the gun rights folks here that see how something terribly wrong happened here.
Whether it’s criminal…we’ll see.
But it’s a relief that there’s only a few who don’t even question the legitimacy of the self-defense claim here.

Has the NRA weighed in yet?
Gotta be some tortured thinking going on over there…

verbaluce on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

right2bright on March 23, 2012 at 11:51 AM

So we’re back to blaming the clothes the kid was wearing?

But you’re wrong about some of my friends, a couple of them do swagger and their general clothing and attitude screams ex-con biker gang member; they look it and they talk it and people in the grocery store steer clear of them.

Let’s just say that I don’t want to get shot by some dumbass because he thinks my general appearance and attitude isn’t sufficiently mainstream enough, much less have one of my boys shot because he’s walking down the street wearing a hoodie. It’s dumb reasoning on Geraldo’s part.

Bishop on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

To me the bigger story is the race mongers Sharpton and Farrahkan calling for violence.

Ellis on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Why should that surprise you? Sharpton came to fame calling for violence that led to the deaths of two Jewish shopkeepers in Harlem.

SWalker on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

Zimmerman’s an idiot who deserves a manslaughter charge(regardless of whether he gets it or not), but I think the media is doing a bad job reporting on this.
1. He did not say a racial slur(f’n c–ns)… he said punks. Anyone who hears c–ns is an idiot.
2. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head, was wet, and had grass stains.
3. IIRC, there is at least one witness that said it was Zimmerman who was the one who cried out for help.
Zimmerman’s still an idiot who deserves a manslaughter charge, but it’s not as black and white as many in the media are making it out to be.
ninjapirate on March 23, 2012 at 11:42 AM

He called the cops and they told him to stand down, and that they are on their way. He out weigh the kid by 100lbs and had a gun and PURSUED the kid and yet a racist mofo POS like you will find every escuse for the cops and this POS.

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

Considering that black on brown* violence (and vice versa) is one of Geraldo’s hot buttons, methinks he took on something simple (that I agree with), instead of delving deeper into the subject, as he would have REALLY ranted on about it.
*Zimmerman is Hispanic, yes ??

pambi on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Minnesota’s law is grotesquely subjective and largely disincentives a person to protect themselves. Hesitation or doubt kills in these situations more often than not. And it usually kills you, the victim.

Most people get that shooting a person once they have a reasonable reason to believe that threat has ended and will not reappear is simply common sense.

But I think trying to contrast Minnesota’s law (which has zero basis in this situation) against Florida’s on a specific case is not only ill-advised but foolish and possibly inflammatory. Especially when all the facts are not clearly established and much of what is being reported appears to be based on hearsay.

By the way, who cares what Geraldo says? On anything? The biggest mistake in that endeavor is believing something intelligent and intellectually sound is being stated.

Marcus Traianus on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Nothing except the fact that Zimmerman said that he had been slugged. And the bruising and swelling on Zimmerman’s face, and the dirt on the back of Zimmerman’s clothing, that support Zimmerman’s claim.

Let’s face it, Zimmerman is going down. However, it looks like he is going down because the mob demands it, not because he committed a crime. There could be a calm, cool, rational investigation: instead, we will get trial by Al, Obama, and the mob.

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 11:49 AM

Zimmerman initiated the encounter. He accosted Trayvon after creepily following him around. Even if this unarmed teen decided to fight back with the only weapons he had, that still wouldn’t justify or excuse shooting and killing him. Trayvon was the one exercising his right to self-defense, it seems, not the other way around. Zimmerman, too, looks like had at least 100 pounds or so on the kid…mortal threat? Really?

And there’d be no mob if police had taken this more seriously than it appears they did.

changer1701 on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

Let’s face it, Zimmerman is going down. However, it looks like he is going down because the mob demands it, not because he committed a crime. There could be a calm, cool, rational investigation: instead, we will get trial by Al, Obama, and the mob.

Zimmerman SHOULD go to jail… now whether there is a law in place to actually put him in jail is another matter.

ninjapirate on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

You wear a hoodie, you’re a criminal and you deserve death. Gotcha.

Certainly sounds like how Zimmerman thinks.

Would you care to judge the other 7 billion people on the planet regarding hoodies, or is sterotyping good enough for you?

BobMbx on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

a government can technically remove any right we have.

The facepalm is strong with this one.

Maybe in your little socialist dreamworld, or Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union, or Communist China, but here in America, we are armed against a government turned murderous…

Battlecruiser-operational on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 11:49 AM

People are having a hard time separating Zimmerman’s lawful approach of Martin and the shooting. They are two separate events and approaching someone is never illegal. It really only matters what happened after Zimmerman approached Martin.

NotCoach on March 23, 2012 at 12:01 PM

Better yet, laws don’t kill people, people do.

Something else that contributed to a bad ending, the cowardice of the people who heard the incident and told the 911 operator, I’m not going out there.

There’s only one person who knows what happened, Zimmerman, Trayvon might well be alive if someone had bothered to go be involved.

Speakup on March 23, 2012 at 12:01 PM

Hmmm, my last post was lost.

Fact- Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white
Fact- Zimmerman was bleeding when the police arrived
Fact- Zimmerman was overzealous
Fact- At 17 Mr.Martin was responsible for his actions, including punching an overzealous ass.
Fact- Mr.Martin took his fists to a gun fight and lost.

We will never know what really happened. Zimmerman was a bonehead and it seams that so was Mr.Martin. We are all going to be held to account for our actions. Mr.Martin most likely committed assault on an armed citizen and his accounting came very quickly. Zimmerman will probably and correctly walk away from this but he will face judgement in the end. Maybe he should get together with Casey Anthony and have a love child.

TheGarbone on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Great response from a brilliant Facebook Friend:

“Parents, please don’t let your children go out wearing Geraldo Mustaches. Based on the facial hair alone, people could think they are attention-seeking, victim blaming, simple-minded idiots and in the worst case, hurl turtle shells at them”

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

He called the cops and they told him to stand down, and that they are on their way. He out weigh the kid by 100lbs and had a gun and PURSUED the kid and yet a racist mofo POS like you will find every escuse for the cops and this POS.

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

You’d make a fantastic juror.

TexasDan on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

we are armed against a government turned murderous…

Battlecruiser-operational on March 23, 2012 at 12:00 PM

haha, good luck using your ‘arms’ against the government.

nonpartisan on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Remember the fake disgust of the left after the Giffords shooting? This is even worse in my opinion.

Ellis on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

This is far far worse. At least with the Tuscon shooting, you had the crosshairs map that Palin put out with Giffords’ district as one of the targets. Obviously it was sheer lunacy to attempt to connect that with any motivation Loughner had for going on his rampage(particularly before anyone even knew anything about him), but at least you could link A to B in some convoluted way.

There is no rational, sane argument to be made that this shooting had anything to do with things said by Rush, Newt, or Santorum. Zero! Anyone who attempts to say otherwise is using the tragic death of a teenage kid to further their own political or ideological agenda and has no business being on the airwaves.

Doughboy on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

OK, ever since we found out the vault was empty, we knew this guy was an idiot. So why does anyone pay attention to him anymore?

guitarman67 on March 23, 2012 at 12:03 PM

a government can technically remove any right we have.

nonpartisan on March 23, 2012 at 11:56 AM

This is my point, actually.

A government doesn’t grant rights. You have rights, regardless of whether or not a government exists at all.

A government can -only- remove rights from you.

This is why you want a government as weak as possible.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:04 PM

Do you seriously not care about black-on-white crime? It happens a hell of a lot more often than white-on-black crime… google “color of crime” sometime.

ninjapirate on March 23, 2012 at 11:46 AM

Facts don’t interest them, but the stats don’t lie. And btw, those two black teens who doused the 13-year-old white boy in Kentucky with gasoline and lit him up are still at large. I scoured the net and found no mention of it by any major news media. None at all. It’s like it didn’t even happen.

RepubChica on March 23, 2012 at 12:04 PM

and in the worst case, hurl turtle shells at them”

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Sadly enough, I get this part.

BobMbx on March 23, 2012 at 12:04 PM

That’s probably why he has the breach block out, way way way cheaper than even firing parade rounds.

SWalker on March 23, 2012 at 11:55 AM

It might be a tax-stamp thing too, or the monumental legal hassle of having a functioning 76.2mm cannon. I don’t even know if rounds are still available, and if they are, most likely 70 years old and mouldering away in a Russian warehouse somewhere. I wouldn’t fire one of them.

Bishop on March 23, 2012 at 12:05 PM

This is far far worse. At least with the Tuscon shooting, you had the crosshairs map that Palin put out with Giffords’ district as one of the targets.

As I recall, no blacks were killed so without a Congressperson being involved, we may not have ever heard about it.

BobMbx on March 23, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Has the NRA weighed in yet?
Gotta be some tortured thinking going on over there…

verbaluce on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

They posted on their Fb feed the article written by the author of the Flordia castle law, explaining very clearly that the law does not cover this situation, as far as the details have been reported in the media. I linked it above.

TexasDan on March 23, 2012 at 12:06 PM

Fact- Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white

Irrelevant.

Fact- Zimmerman was bleeding when the police arrived

Which only proves that at some point Trayvon chose to fight back against the armed adult who was illegally stalking him. Clearly this means he deserved to die.

Fact- At 17 Mr.Martin was responsible for his actions, including punching an overzealous ass.
Fact- Mr.Martin took his fists to a gun fight and lost.

Great, so in your world I should be allowed to carry a gun, follow around anyone I like, accost them and if they fight back I can shoot them and say “sorry hoss, you shoulda brought more than guns to this fist fight.” Good to know!

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM

The African-American leaders like the Rev. Sharpton and Farakhan are making a very succinct point. It’s okay if 10000 African-Americans are murdered every year, as long as its other African-Americans doing it. If a non-African-American does it, then we’re right back to the days of Bull Conner.

kwbrownie2003 on March 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM

haha, good luck using your ‘arms’ against the government.

nonpartisan on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

Nazi forces basically had to level entire neighborhoods in the Warsaw ghetto to stop a handful of jews armed with pistols, submachine guns, and a few grenades. Good luck stopping all of the millions of armed Americans if they decide to take down a predatory government.

Get a clue.

Battlecruiser-operational on March 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM

I don’t even know if rounds are still available, and if they are, most likely 70 years old and mouldering away in a Russian warehouse somewhere. I wouldn’t fire one of them.

Bishop on March 23, 2012 at 12:05 PM

I wouldn’t have problem firing one that old. There is no way in hell you’d get me to pick one up and put it in the breech, though.

If you load it, I’ll fire it.

BobMbx on March 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM

Nothing except the fact that Zimmerman said that he had been slugged. And the bruising and swelling on Zimmerman’s face, and the dirt on the back of Zimmerman’s clothing, that support Zimmerman’s claim.

Let’s face it, Zimmerman is going down. However, it looks like he is going down because the mob demands it, not because he committed a crime. There could be a calm, cool, rational investigation: instead, we will get trial by Al, Obama, and the mob.

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 11:49 AM

The 911 operator told the racist not to follow the boy but he couldn’t help himself because the “c00n was up to no good”

liberal4life on March 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM

So we can blame mini-skirts when women get raped?

liberal4life on March 23, 2012 at 11:14 AM

…why not?…you blame your diaper when you get a load in it!

KOOLAID2 on March 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Where are some of you getting that he was dressed like a “gangsta?” I haven’t read or heard that on tv at all. Just because he was wearing a jacket with a hood doesn’t mean he was dressed with baggy ass pants.

Maybe he was just wearing a jacket and put the hood up when it started to rain because he didn’t bring an umbrella with him? Good grief, some here have this all figured out, kinda like Geraldo and most likely you’re wrong.

moonsbreath on March 23, 2012 at 12:09 PM

This is far far worse. At least with the Tuscon shooting, you had the crosshairs map that Palin put out with Giffords’ district as one of the targets. Obviously it was sheer lunacy to attempt to connect that with any motivation Loughner had for going on his rampage(particularly before anyone even knew anything about him), but at least you could link A to B in some convoluted way.

There is no rational, sane argument to be made that this shooting had anything to do with things said by Rush, Newt, or Santorum. Zero! Anyone who attempts to say otherwise is using the tragic death of a teenage kid to further their own political or ideological agenda and has no business being on the airwaves.

Doughboy on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

It’s about the same. And MSM saw that they got away with it then with the help of GOP , so they do it now again.
What GOP sow then trying to push Palin and the tea party away , they will reap now.
Idiots.

the_nile on March 23, 2012 at 12:09 PM

So I saw this chick in a hoodie walking down the street. She was also in a mini skirt. Didn’t know if I should shoot her or rape her. It was one of those morally challenging moments we keep hearing about.

Geraldo, help me out here?

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:11 PM

Fact- At 17 Mr.Martin was responsible for his actions, including punching an overzealous ass.
Fact- Mr.Martin took his fists to a gun fight and lost.

Great, so in your world I should be allowed to carry a gun, follow around anyone I like, accost them and if they fight back I can shoot them and say “sorry hoss, you shoulda brought more than guns to this fist fight.” Good to know!
libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM

Its about whose Ox is being gored.

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Nothing except the fact that Zimmerman said that he had been slugged. And the bruising and swelling on Zimmerman’s face, and the dirt on the back of Zimmerman’s clothing, that support Zimmerman’s claim.

Let’s face it, Zimmerman is going down. However, it looks like he is going down because the mob demands it, not because he committed a crime. There could be a calm, cool, rational investigation: instead, we will get trial by Al, Obama, and the mob.

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 11:49AM

Zimmerman was caught in a lie already though. He initially claimed that Trayvon jumped him from behind when he “looked to see what street he was on.” Except that on the 911 tape he clearly identifies to the dispatcher where he is in the complex. Also how would he be looking to see what street he was on if he was sober and in control of his faculties, he was the neighborhood watch captain and patrolled the neighborhood on a regular basis.

Also a young woman who was talking to Trayvon on the phone at the moment he was attacked contradicts Zimmerman’s version of events. As do witnesses, again I’ve provided links if you choose not to educate yourself it shows you have an investment in believing Zimmerman’s version of events. And not in what happened.

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Obama just called Trayvon the son he never had.

Race-baiting his way to more votes.

profitsbeard on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

KOOLAID2
Bwaaaaaaahaaàaa
man you just hitting that nail on the head!

angrymike on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

While we’re all soul-searching about Trayvon, let’s also soul-search about 100 nameless Chicagoans since Jan 1.

http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Where are some of you getting that he was dressed like a “gangsta?” I haven’t read or heard that on tv at all. Just because he was wearing a jacket with a hood doesn’t mean he was dressed with baggy ass pants.

My thought is that he’s watched too many episodes of Gangland on TruTV. Every episode is like if you wear a hoodie with LA (Dodgers?) on it, it means you are with this gang. A hoodie with another sports team, means you are in this gang.

Seriously. Watch that show. It’ll make you paranoid.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

The 911 operator told the racist not to follow the boy but he couldn’t help himself because the “c00n was up to no good”

liberal4life on March 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM

You are a ridiculous liar… he said punks not c00ns…

ninjapirate on March 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM

Where are some of you getting that he was dressed like a “gangsta?” I haven’t read or heard that on tv at all. Just because he was wearing a jacket with a hood doesn’t mean he was dressed with baggy ass pants.

Its called, racism.

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM

You are a ridiculous liar… he said punks not c00ns…

ninjapirate on March 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM

l4l is just getting off on calling black people c00ns all day. It feels free, like it never has before.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM

While we’re all soul-searching about Trayvon, let’s also soul-search about Edgar.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8549585&rss=rss-wls-article-8549585

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM

So I saw this chick in a hoodie walking down the street. She was also in a mini skirt. Didn’t know if I should shoot her or rape her. It was one of those morally challenging moments we keep hearing about.

Geraldo, help me out here?

lorien1973

Go GTA style by raping, then shooting her? (Eh, what do I know, I’m more of a Crysis, Gears, and WoW man…)

Battlecruiser-operational on March 23, 2012 at 12:14 PM

While we’re all soul-searching about Trayvon, let’s also soul-search about Anthony.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/crime/englewood-shooting-leaves-16-year-old-boy-dead-20100715

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:14 PM

The 911 operator told the racist not to follow the boy but he couldn’t help himself because the “c00n was up to no good”

liberal4life on March 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Okay, so you have used the “racist” and “C@@n” word about 20 times now on this thread. It’s enough already. You should wait for more fact to be shown.

VegasRick on March 23, 2012 at 12:14 PM

…why not?…you blame your diaper when you get a load in it!

KOOLAID2 on March 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM

Well, it is called diaper rash and not load rash. Perhaps it’s misnamed?

NotCoach on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

While we’re all soul-searching about Trayvon, let’s also soul-search about Aliyah

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/03/18/six-shot-dead-17-others-wounded-in-citywide-violence/

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

My thought is that he’s watched too many episodes of Gangland on TruTV. Every episode is like if you wear a hoodie with LA (Dodgers?) on it, it means you are with this gang. A hoodie with another sports team, means you are in this gang.

Seriously. Watch that show. It’ll make you paranoid.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Are you suggesting that media representations transfer into popular knowledge that can shape how people perceive other humans in the real world? Knock me over with a feather, never thought I’d see a conservative admit as much.

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

The 911 operator told the racist not to follow the boy

Umm, be careful with your word choice there.

YYZ on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

While we’re all soul-searching about Trayvon, let’s also soul-search about Charinez

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/7116396-418/pregnant-teen-shot-and-killed-in-marquette-park-baby-saved.html

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

He called the cops and they told him to stand down, and that they are on their way. He out weigh the kid by 100lbs and had a gun and PURSUED the kid and yet a racist mofo POS like you will find every escuse for the cops and this POS.

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

I don’t see the same outrage about the black on black murders committed every day in America. Where I live, there is at least one murder a day. It’s a shame that you and people like Al Sharpten and Rev. Jackson profit from this one incident, but ignore what is going on daily across America.

Shame on you…..

idesign on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

The watchman is a racist who allegedly referred to the black boy as a c00n. I personally believed he enjoyed killing the unarmed black man.

liberal4life on March 23, 2012 at 11:16 AM

…who has that information, or what websites do you read?…oh!…you were there?… “You personaly believe?”

KOOLAID2 on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Obama just called Trayvon the son he never had.

Race-baiting his way to more votes.

profitsbeard on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Please tell me you are joking.

VegasRick on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

While we’re all soul-searching about Trayvon, let’s also soul-search about Albert.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/dpp/news/crime/albert-guyton-teen-boy-shot-fatal-marquette-park-gang-related-20120229

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Obama just called Trayvon the son he never had.

Race-baiting his way to more votes.

profitsbeard on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

You’re a liar.

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Libtardordie
that’s your sides favorite point, don’t get facts, scream racist first, ask questions later.

angrymike on March 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM

How about: “If you dress like a gang member, be ready to be treated like a gang member.”

RoadRunner on March 23, 2012 at 11:10 AM

do you mean all those novice harley riders should be ready to be treated like a Hell’s Angle??

svs22422 on March 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Are you suggesting that media representations transfer into popular knowledge that can shape how people perceive other humans in the real world? Knock me over with a feather, never thought I’d see a conservative admit as much.

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Of course it does. Conservatives say this all the time, actually. Why do you think liberals go out of their way to call republicans racist on TV, even when it has no merit. Cuz TV shapes how you perceive them. Yes?

Too bad you can only see his media perception working one way.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Obama said “If i had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.” Not that “Trayvon is the son he never had.” Why do you feel the need to lie?

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/23/10828484-obama-if-i-had-a-son-hed-look-like-trayvon

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Doughboy on March 23, 2012 at 11:42 AM

Sharpton & the other race pimps are down there because they looked at Zimmerman’s photo & deemed him to be white. Zimmerman, half-Hispanic, self-identifies as Hispanic just as Barack Obama self-identifies as Black.

The media is the enemy in this narrative because they need Zimmerman to be White so they can use this moment in this election year. They are so desperate for Zimmerman to be White they have created a new category of race/ethnicity “White-Hispanic” as the NYT called him.

This “outrage” will subside quickly if the race pimps are confronted at every juncture that Zimmerman is Hispanic. And then maybe the facts of the case can be honestly examined, a young man is dead and another young man killed him.

batterup on March 23, 2012 at 12:18 PM

Heat seeker
you will never make national news that way, victim is the wrong race.

angrymike on March 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Distinction without difference.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM

Great, so in your world I should be allowed to carry a gun, follow around anyone I like, accost them and if they fight back I can shoot them and say “sorry hoss, you shoulda brought more than guns to this fist fight.” Good to know!

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:07 PM

Who initiated the violence? That’s all that matters here. I have never heard of a law that prevents people from approaching other people, armed or not. It only matters what happened after Zimmerman confronted Martin.

NotCoach on March 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM

Obama just called Trayvon the son he never had.

profitsbeard on March 23, 2012 at 12:12 PM

No he didn’t.
But I’m believe that’s what you heard.

verbaluce on March 23, 2012 at 12:20 PM

do you mean all those novice harley riders should be ready to be treated like a Hell’s Angle??

svs22422 on March 23, 2012 at 12:17 PM

Well since we know that no one is racist anymore outside of Louis Farrakhan, of COURSE RoadRunner was thinking of Harley culture when he said people who dress like “gangstas” deserve to be treated like criminals. If I see a man in a leather jacket on a hog I’m going to shoot and ask questions later /s

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:20 PM

The 911 operator told the racist not to follow the boy but he couldn’t help himself because the “c00n was up to no good”

liberal4life on March 23, 2012 at 12:08 PM
You are a ridiculous liar… he said punks not c00ns…

ninjapirate on March 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM

…It’s a religious bigot and a race baiter…
Al!…Al Sharpton is that you? I see similar logic, language, personality, etc…in your posts.

KOOLAID2 on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Fact- At 17 Mr.Martin was responsible for his actions, including punching an overzealous ass.
Fact- Mr.Martin took his fists to a gun fight and lost.

We will never know what really happened. Zimmerman was a bonehead and it seams that so was Mr.Martin. We are all going to be held to account for our actions. Mr.Martin most likely committed assault on an armed citizen and his accounting came very quickly. Zimmerman will probably and correctly walk away from this but he will face judgement in the end. Maybe he should get together with Casey Anthony and have a love child.

TheGarbone on March 23, 2012 at 12:02 PM

This is all kinds of wrong. Trayvon didn’t know there was to be a gun fight…he had just gone to get some iced tea and skittles and was going back to his family. He didn’t expect some vigilante loon to stalk and accost him, so you’ll have to excuse the unarmed (and now dead) boy for not packing heat of his own and laying a hand on poor “private citizen’ Zimmerman. Oh the humanity of being punched in the face while you’re harassing some poor kid before you have a chance to shoot him.

changer1701 on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

If I see a man in a leather jacket on a hog I’m going to shoot and ask questions later /s

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Works for PETA!

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Obama said “If i had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.

So what is that supposed to mean?It seems Obama has found the need to weigh in on this death. Why? How many were killed in Chicago this weekend. I heard it was quite a few and many of them also probably would look like Obamas son. All this is is another play of the race card pure and simple.

sandee on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Distinction without difference.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:19 P

If that were true there’d be no need to misrepresent his words. What, precisely, is wrong with Obama’s actual statement?

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Where are some of you getting that he was dressed like a “gangsta?” I haven’t read or heard that on tv at all. Just because he was wearing a jacket with a hood doesn’t mean he was dressed with baggy ass pants.

moonsbreath on March 23, 2012 at 12:09 PM

New England Patriots Head Coach Bill Belichick wears a Hoodie on the sidelines all the time, and many here in NE even call him “Hoodie”.

But he’s no Gangsta Thug, even though many Jets and Steelers fans here on Hot Gas would say otherwise. /

Del Dolemonte on March 23, 2012 at 12:22 PM

So what is that supposed to mean?It seems Obama has found the need to weigh in on this death. Why?

He was asked about it at a press conference….

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:22 PM

he had just gone to get some iced tea and skittles and was going back to his family.

See, this is the thing.

He should have been shot for violating Obama’s “let’s move” program for not eating healthy.

Motivations matter.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:22 PM

‘They begged for their lives with their trousers down’: Two lost drunk British holidaymakers ‘were gunned down after taking wrong turn on Florida street’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118785/Shawn-Tyson-said-murdered-James-Cooper-James-Kouzaris-Sarasota-Florida.html

Two British tourists holidaying in Florida begged for their lives with their trousers pulled down before they were mercilessly shot dead, a court has heard.

Shawn Tyson, who turned 17 on Monday, is said to have murdered James Cooper, 25, and James Kouzaris, 24, after they drunkenly stumbled into the rundown Newtown neighbourhood of Sarasota.

What about murders closer to home?

http://www.trentonian.com/article/20120323/OPINION03/120329862/what-about-murders-closer-to-home-&source=RSS?nomobile=true
While civil rights activists scream for a satisfying resolution, I have to offer this assessment about Sanford, social activists and others jettisoned into this Florida fray: Will blacks in America ever show anger and disgust for our murders, the black-on-black killings that permeate most urban cities, our disdain for life, our acceptance for thugs, gang members, etc.?

Media masterminds have determined that African Americans killing each other, and Latino Americans killing each other, is not major news.

But when a white man is suspected of killing a black teen? Baby, that’s a highlight. Race matters breed anger, hate and an outcry of social injustice.

Those pushing this Sanford affair have called for people to hop a flight to Miami Beach and participate in a news media gang bang.

Why is there the selective outrage over the Sanford tragedy and not these cases?

Galt2009 on March 23, 2012 at 12:22 PM

He called the cops and they told him to stand down, and that they are on their way. He out weigh the kid by 100lbs and had a gun and PURSUED the kid and yet a racist mofo POS like you will find every escuse for the cops and this POS.
0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 11:59 AM

I don’t see the same outrage about the black on black murders committed every day in America. Where I live, there is at least one murder a day. It’s a shame that you and people like Al Sharpten and Rev. Jackson profit from this one incident, but ignore what is going on daily across America.
Shame on you…..
idesign on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Do you have any brain cell?!???? A man confesses to shooting a kid in cold blood and he is not arrested and you say WTF U POS!!!!

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

What, precisely, is wrong with Obama’s actual statement?

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Other than the fact that it’s not very helpful and only serves to make a bad situation worse? Nothing, I suppose.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Works for PETA!

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM

Obnoxiously throwing blood on people = a gun shot to the chest?

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Ya know, it was a tragic event, and I hope that it’s resolved appropriately. But we do more harm than good by fixating on events like this. It borders on perverse obsession. Also, it only encourages the exploiters and money men, such as Farrakhan et. al. If the public doesn’t talk about it or watch the news programs that also exploit the incident for monetary and political gain, the morbid obsession will fade sooner, and we will all be much better off. Now, I am taking my own advice and going to another thread.

guitarman67 on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

h/t IowaHawk

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:15 PM

Look at the crime rate here in this map of Newark, NJ alone. Shouldn’t Al Sharpton be here holding vigil for the poor black victims and their quality of life?

RepubChica on March 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM

that and apparently he falls into a new racial category.

“White Hispanic”. The news media actually reported this.

ToddPA on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Ah ha ha. Yep, I’ve seen a couple of reports and when they showed his picture the first time I said THAT is a white guy? That’s not a white guy, that’s a Hispanic guy.

Marcus on March 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Other than the fact that it’s not very helpful and only serves to make a bad situation worse? Nothing, I suppose.

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

How does it make things worse?

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Obnoxiously throwing blood on people = a gun shot to the chest?

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Or when they blow up private property.

Oh, that!

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at xxxx

Why do you hate Hispanic people?

They have rights too, you know.

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:25 PM

…“White Hispanic”. The news media actually reported this.

ToddPA on March 23, 2012 at 11:57 AM

Incidentally pointing out the fact that ‘hispanic’ is a made-up race, made up purely for political purposes. Similar to ‘palestinian’.

slickwillie2001 on March 23, 2012 at 12:25 PM

Ya know, it was a tragic event, and I hope that it’s resolved appropriately. But we do more harm than good by fixating on events like this. It borders on perverse obsession. Also, it only encourages the exploiters and money men, such as Farrakhan et. al. If the public doesn’t talk about it or watch the news programs that also exploit the incident for monetary and political gain, the morbid obsession will fade sooner, and we will all be much better off. Now, I am taking my own advice and going to another thread.

guitarman67 on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

Keep ignoring it and hopefully Zimmerman won’t ever be arrested!

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:25 PM

A man confesses to shooting a kid in cold blood and he is not arrested and you say WTF U POS!!!!

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

When did that happen? You really should calm down before you start to completely meltdown.

VegasRick on March 23, 2012 at 12:26 PM

It might be a tax-stamp thing too, or the monumental legal hassle of having a functioning 76.2mm cannon. I don’t even know if rounds are still available, and if they are, most likely 70 years old and mouldering away in a Russian warehouse somewhere. I wouldn’t fire one of them.

Bishop on March 23, 2012 at 12:05 PM

Yea, like I said, the cost of owning something like that is insane, however watch “Sons of Guns” some time, ammo for just about anything ever made is available if you can afford it.

SWalker on March 23, 2012 at 12:26 PM

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at xxxx

You are SUCH a bigot.

HeatSeeker2011 on March 23, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Okay lib whatever ,yes he was asked about this in a news conference. His answer is what is bothering me. Injecting himself in a case without the facts and making it personal by saying if he had a Son he would look like Travon. Oh, and lets not forget he brought his Daughters into it also. You know, the Children he said were off limits to speak about…

sandee on March 23, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Man, I wear hoodies on a daily basis – if I’m outside, I’m inside a hoodie. Good thing I’m, uh, not a teenager. And, um… caucasian. And… on the board of my HOA. Err…..

Dont own a gun, however. Yet.

Jeddite on March 23, 2012 at 12:27 PM

lorien1973 on March 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM

Yeah, remember all those times PETA blew up property and was never arrested, let alone charged. Its totally Trayvon Martiny….still not sure how the President’s statement “made things worse.”

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:27 PM

Who initiated the violence?
NotCoach on March 23, 2012 at 12:19 PM

When do you think Zimmerman might have first drawn and shown his weapon? And how might you react if approached by a stranger, who had been following you, did the same?
Hypothetically speaking, of course – but try and think logically.
Can you imagine the possibility that this kid felt threatened and made some sort of defensive move? What was the kid thinking? We know a bit what Zimmerman was thinking – as the kid walked home eating some skittles.
And let’s not forget what a pro Zimmerman seems to be..Mr. citizen patrol.

verbaluce on March 23, 2012 at 12:29 PM

I don’t see the same outrage about the black on black murders committed every day in America. Where I live, there is at least one murder a day. It’s a shame that you and people like Al Sharpten and Rev. Jackson profit from this one incident, but ignore what is going on daily across America.
Shame on you…..
idesign on March 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM

Do you have any brain cell?!???? A man confesses to shooting a kid in cold blood and he is not arrested and you say WTF U POS!!!!

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 23, 2012 at 12:23 PM

I see you didn’t really respond to my post, but just feigned outrage regarding this one incident. Where is your outrage of the daily genocide accruing in the black community?

idesign on March 23, 2012 at 12:29 PM

Injecting himself in a case without the facts and making it personal by saying if he had a Son he would look like Travon

Yes, we know how it enrages you whenever the President points out that he’s of African descent. But could you make it less obvious?

libfreeordie on March 23, 2012 at 12:30 PM

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