Geraldo: What do we gain in Afghanistan by sacrificing U.S. troops for another two years?

posted at 6:35 pm on March 16, 2012 by Allahpundit

Watch for when he notes with disgust how the accidental burning of a few Korans inspired days of riots but the apparently intentional killing of women and children elicits virtually nothing. I never thought I’d say it, but here we go: Second look at Geraldo?

To answer his question, though, we gain two things by staying put until 2014. One is two more years to turn the Afghan National Army into a force that’s ready and willing to fight to the death for a government that’s best known for profligate graft and vote-rigging. Two is the pride that comes with leaving on our own timetable instead of being chased out by a menagerie of corrupt bureaucrats, ANA saboteurs, and Taliban. Given the apparent hopelessness of the first purpose, I think the second is the prime motive at this point. But the more Karzai pulls inflammatory insanity like this, the more the public’s going to come around to Geraldo’s let-him-hang position:

“Yesterday, I said clearly that the Americans should leave our villages,” Karzai said. “This morning, Obama called regarding this issue. He asked, ‘Did you announce this’? I said, ‘Yes, I announced it.’”

Obama has said it appears that the massacre, in which nine children and three women were among the 16 killed, was the work of “a lone gunman.”

But the AP reported that Karzai, after meeting with relatives of some of the victims, pointed to one of the villagers and said: “In his family, in four rooms people were killed—children and women were killed—and then they were all brought together in one room and then set on fire. That, one man cannot do.”

Not only is he undermining NATO with public pandering about having them pull back, he’s trying to rile up the locals with conspiracy theories about how last weekend’s massacre must have involved more than one shooter. I get that he has to walk a line between the White House and the Afghan population but does he want new riots? Does he want Afghans to despise U.S. troops more than they already do, which will only make it harder to get the ANA in shape over the next two years?

Before you watch, go read this story quoting the lawyer for the suspect in the massacre as saying his client had already deployed abroad three times and thought he was done — before finding out he’d have to do a tour in Afghanistan. I don’t blame O for that (think of how many U.S. soldiers have done multiple tours with exemplary behavior in the field), but rest assured that a Republican president wouldn’t have been given the same leeway here by the media or the left if he had been the one to order a surge of 30,000 troops three years ago. Consider it a grim postscript to Politico’s “what if Bush had done it?” story from the other day.



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Say thank you to the troops, and bring them home, they’ve done their job with honor.

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 16, 2012 at 6:38 PM

For probably the only time in my life time, I’m with Geraldo. We will never change that country.

msupertas on March 16, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Geraldo may be a race baiting immigration wacko, but damn does he love the troops. Gotta say I agree with Geraldo with this one, let the savages wallow in their misery and lets GTFO

MyImamToldMeToDoIt on March 16, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Change the ROE and things will turn around quick. The Iraqi surge and the Afghan surge are not the same thing. The ROE are demoralizing the entire armed forces.

Egfrow on March 16, 2012 at 6:40 PM

Swear to God, a pink pig just went flapping by my window. Geraldo and I have very little common ground, do have to agree with him here.

waterytart on March 16, 2012 at 6:41 PM

Some soldiers say that worse than coming home and having members of the public say, “I don’t like what you’re doing over there,” is hearing members of the public say “oh, are we still over there? I forgot that it’s still going on.”

RBMN on March 16, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Out Now!

Socmodfiscon on March 16, 2012 at 6:45 PM

The U.S. could pave the streets in gold and make sure every yard has two goats and rivers of chocolate. In the end when the forces withdraw, Afghanistan will revert to the third world shithole it wants to be. It is its natural state. Pakistan and Karzai are playing on both sides of the fence.

The troops have done an honorable job, bin Laden is dead and the Taliban have been hurt. Bring home, give them a damn parade and take care of them no matter the cost, just cut off a green-jobs swindle.

Sammy316 on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

I’ve been to AFG 4 times, Iraq twice. What this soldier did was horrific and wrong. Illegal, immoral and unjust.

That being said, I will remind you that we have an extraordinarily large cohort of soldiers and Marines–in this soldier’s paygrade–who all they have known is deployment-redeployment-deployment. He is in a Stryker BCT probably in the Army <6-8 years. Of that time, he has spent it mostly abroad, as an infantry soldier. I am deeply concerned about men like these. What woman could hold a relationship with one of them? What semblance of a family could a man like this have over the last 6-10 years? The truth is not much, but that is no excuse for this behavior. If there is any 'group' in need of a break, it is our mid-senior level NCOs and mid-grade officers. It is a credit to the professionalism and patriotism and amazing self restraint that this is such a rare incident. A heartbreaking incident, but it should serve to illuminate the reality of infantry soldiers who have known nothing but combat for such a long time through their lives.

2c

ted c on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Leave them be and have them let us be. If people they support attack us, we go in, strike extremely hard, and leave.

Whack-a-mole gets old fast, but it beats the sisyphean business of trying to build a constitutional, democratic republic among people whose real love is sharia.

Tzetzes on March 16, 2012 at 6:47 PM

When the spitter speaks I normally don’t listen…but this time..?

d1carter on March 16, 2012 at 6:48 PM

ted c on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Well put!

Egfrow on March 16, 2012 at 6:48 PM

Two words: “carpet bombing”.

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 6:49 PM

ted c on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Thank you for your service!

Tzetzes on March 16, 2012 at 6:49 PM

OT/The Wisconsin Judicial Commission filled ethics charges against Prosser too. All politically motivated. Leave it to the Dems. If they can’t win at the ballot box they will do anything to take it away…

sandee on March 16, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Two is the pride that comes with leaving on our own timetable instead of being chased out by a menagerie of corrupt bureaucrats, ANA saboteurs, and Taliban.

The safety and freedom of our citizens is worth the blood of those that make the ultimate sacrifice. Pride of leaving that country on our own timetable is not.

deuce on March 16, 2012 at 6:51 PM

What is the temperature in Hades? Must be below 273.16 K

Because for once, I agree with the spitter.
…………………
While I agree that the ROE is idiotic and demoralizing, even one that Patton, Sherman and I would put together would only be effective as long as we are there to enforce it. Barring ‘The Ripley Solution’ it will never be a civilized place.

LegendHasIt on March 16, 2012 at 6:51 PM

It’s nothing but a catch and release program. Catch them, turn them over, they get release, more Marines and Soldiers are killed. Rinse and repeat.

Egfrow on March 16, 2012 at 6:52 PM

I agree with Geraldo. There is nothing that can be saved in Afghanistan because the human material and culture doesn’t exist to create a nation. They are a Muslim people and a tribal people and it is a waste of time to stay years more out of simple pride.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 6:52 PM

And Whore-Aldo wins the Broken Clock Prize for the day.

..Or was it the Blind Pig Award?

Joe Mama on March 16, 2012 at 6:53 PM

Too many deployments.

For a cause lost once the Afghan Constitution included Sharia Law.

Bring them home and bomb from afar.

profitsbeard on March 16, 2012 at 6:54 PM

We gain some generals getting another star and Obama gets to put off a decision on what to do until after the election. That’s about it. What a waste of lives and limbs and hundreds of billions just to get to respect the koran. Patton would probably have 90% of the Army’s and 70% of the Marines generals shot.

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 6:54 PM

ted c on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Thank you, sir, for your service and for expressing your sentiments concerning our military personnel.

d1carter on March 16, 2012 at 6:56 PM

OT:

BREAKING NEWS: Military sources identify the suspect in the shooting deaths of 16 Afghan civilians as Staff Sgt. Robert Bales.

Found a webpage with two photo’s of him too but I had to use Google cache to get to them. The website where the pics are located is out of whack, or something.

#1

#2

I wasn’t expecting some demonic looking creature, but jeez, he looks like just your average soldier.

SD Tom on March 16, 2012 at 6:57 PM

“Hearts and Minds” as Imam Petraeus says, but who wants to win black hearts and sub-human minds?

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 6:58 PM

Smoke and destroy the poppy fields forever and just leave .
I think someone said earlier ” mess with us and the last thing you’ll
see is a flash ” or was that the last thing you’ll see ?

Lucano on March 16, 2012 at 6:58 PM

O/T: Norfolk St. knocks off Missouri, 86 – 84!
One of Ø’s Final Four picks out already…

ExpressoBold on March 16, 2012 at 6:59 PM

tedc:

WWII soldiers, even if they deployed on Dec. 8, 1941 and served the duration, plus occupation, served less time in a battle zone than do current enlistees.

Remind me again who the “Greatest Generation” is/was? Not to detract from WWII vets, but this all-volunteer force is serving under ROE that would have sent gramps over the edge.

Thank you for your service.

Joe Mama on March 16, 2012 at 6:59 PM

ted c on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

From what I saw on Fox, he’s 38 and had been in for 11 years. That means he probably joined right after 9/11 when he was 27. He may have been already married with kids. I agree that our mid-senior NCOs have borne the brunt of this war, and not only that, but the ROE sucks.

And to President Karzai, I’m sad to tell you that yes, one ticked-off American military member could do all that.

pookysgirl on March 16, 2012 at 6:59 PM

This is the same position Newt Gingrich took on March 12th. I think it might have been a segment with Greta Van Sustern – On The Record.

Romney’s latest statement on this same issue, he would listen to the Generals.

We all know Ron Paul’s position.

I don’t know Rick Santorum’s position on withdrawing from Afghanistan?

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:00 PM

Just about four years ago I set out on Obama’s Afghanistan road
Seekin’ my fame and glory, lookin’ to turn the Mullah’s Hemorrhoid into a pot of gold
Well, things got bad, and things got worse, I guess you will know the tune
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again

Flew in yet again on a big plane, I hope I’ll be in one piece flyin out when I go.
I was yet again just passin’ through, must now be yet another 3 tours or more.
Running out of time and patience [Not to complain but whatever the hell happened to my youth?!"], looks like they took still more of my friends.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.

The Hope and Change man in the White House said yet again I was on my way.
Somewhere I lost his connection, he ran out of words to say.
I came into Kabul, yet another one year stand, looks like the plans fell through yet again
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.

Mmmm…
If I only had a woman ["Hey Jack, do you remember what a woman is?"], for evry Obama tour Ive done.
And evry time Ive had to fight while cheered on by CINO’s, Obama sat back home empowering Islam and power drunk.
You know, Id like to catch the next plane back to where Im from.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.

InkyBinkyBarleyBoo on March 16, 2012 at 7:01 PM

…we gain two things by staying put until 2014. One is two more years to turn the Afghan National Army into a force that’s ready and willing to fight to the death for a government that’s best known for profligate graft and vote-rigging. Two is the pride that comes with leaving on our own timetable instead of being chased out by a menagerie of corrupt bureaucrats, ANA saboteurs, and Taliban. Given the apparent hopelessness of the first purpose, I think the second is the prime motive at this point…

What, then, if we announced a complete pull-out of all U.S. forces by, say, next Friday? (Okay, end of next month.) Precipitating the complete collapse of the Karzai “government.” Wouldn’t that be on our timetable? And no less than this corruptocrat deserves?

As for the Taliban, our reason for being there in the first place, deny them any military bases or terrorist training camps with periodic bombing raids. Use drones to keep the leadership cowed.

Geraldo is a flaming liberal but he’s been completely supportive of the U.S. troops in Afghanistan from the beginning. He’s right. It’s been Obama’s political football since he was elected, the ROE is a horror. There’s never been a clearly defined “mission” in that country, so whatever anyone imagines it to be it isn’t going to be accomplished in another 2 years. This isn’t worth the life of one more U.S. soldier. Get them out now.

de rigueur on March 16, 2012 at 7:01 PM

Having been there and done that (not as Infantry..God bless them), it’s time to leave. The Iraqi’s are civilized enough they could take over the responsibility of their country, question is can they keep it that way. The Afghani’s haven’t been civilized for at least the last forty years. I think we need to teach the women in Afghanistan how to shoot an AR-15 and turn them loose on the Taliban and Al Qaeda. IMHO, leave now, when Al Qaeda regains a foot hold in the country, bomb them back to the Stone Age.

TulsAmerican on March 16, 2012 at 7:02 PM

Afghanistan has been battled over from without and within and NO one has ever won. This is the “Land That Time Forgot”! These people are the worst amalgamation of all human traits rolled into one region. It is NOT a country or a people. It is a collection of disparate tribes that have not gotten along since Christ walked the earth. They have NO reason to join forces or to unite as one nation because they like their tribal way of life. Try to find a difference between the Taliban and the many other tribes and it is minor. They are truly God’s sick joke on the human race.

inspectorudy on March 16, 2012 at 7:03 PM

Wow! This is news how? Meanwhile Drudge is trying derail Rick Santorum “John Kerry” style and HA is dead quiet? And such a story isn’t right in the HA wheelhouse of keepin’ everyone honest. Yeah, conservative media really calls out its own.

newtopia on March 16, 2012 at 7:04 PM

Today I like Geraldo… It may be another 12 years before he does something I respect again. But today I respect his position.

astonerii on March 16, 2012 at 7:04 PM

I think we need to teach the women in Afghanistan how to shoot an AR-15 and turn them loose on the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

TulsAmerican on March 16, 2012 at 7:02 PM

I’ve been wishing for years that we could ship feminist groups to the most backward part of Afghanistan so they can see what real oppression of women looks like.

pookysgirl on March 16, 2012 at 7:08 PM

ted c on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Thank you for your service. Our military men and women deserve better than this CinC. With him at the helm, it is an exercise in futility and depressing as hell.

indyvet on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

For probably the only time in my life time, I’m with Geraldo. We will never change that country.

msupertas on March 16, 2012 at 6:39 PM

The Afghani’s haven’t been civilized for at least the last forty years.

“Hearts and Minds” as Imam Petraeus says, but who wants to win black hearts and sub-human minds?

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 6:58 PM

These sentiments are fascinating. So one of a two things is possible,
These people began opposing the Afghanistan occupation well into the Bush Administration once it became clear the mission had extended beyond ending the Taliban. They always knew these truths about Afghanis (for the sake of argument) and have just been silent in their comments while calling the anti-war left traitors.

Or second, these folks have to find some way to rationalize in their minds the failure of America’s latest imperial nation-building gambit. And in order to do they are engaging in some pretty ugly comments about the Afghanis.

I’m not sure which is worse.

libfreeordie on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Two is the pride that comes with leaving on our own timetable instead of being chased out by a menagerie of corrupt bureaucrats, ANA saboteurs, and Taliban.

Whose pride?

That of the arm chair Generals and strategists? Or that of the men and women who will lose their dreams, limbs and lives for the sake of a ‘timetable’.

Even bus companies know that if the bridge gets washed away, you change the timetable. You don’t send the bus and its driver on a deadly fools errand just to satisfy the ego of the CEO and shareholders.

There is nothing to win in Afghanistan, and most likely there never was. From the outset it was misguided adventure, directed and driven by ego and emotion, not by reason.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

ted c
Thank you for your service and for what you just wrote . I admire your clarity and
your keen sense of rightness .

Lucano on March 16, 2012 at 7:13 PM

I’ve never been a “bring them home now” type. I’ve always said that we can’t leave until the mission is done. But this situation is hopeless. There is no longer a useful mission for our troops to serve there. That place is truly a useless hellhole. I know that horrible suffering will come to some of the Afghans but I can’t see us ever really being able to overcome the culture of corruption and mayhem that seems to guide that place.

Bitter Clinger on March 16, 2012 at 7:13 PM

I agree with him 100%. These people are happy living in the Stone Age so get out now. We will have more troops die needlessly and in vain the longer we stay.

Southernblogger on March 16, 2012 at 7:13 PM

The President should be required to (1) NEVER send troops anywhere without declaring war (with congressional approval) with a clear goal and definition of “victory” and (2) update the American people on why our heroes are in harms way each month, updating any changes to the mission and goals.

eagleriverboy on March 16, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Godspeed to the soldiers over there and to their loved ones at home. Under these circumstances, I don’t know how either group will sleep until their home.

I was a child during the Vietnam, though I used to get up and watch the CBS morning news for reports about that peninsula. I’m aware that our soldiers often had trouble distinguishing unfriendly civilians, but I don’t think there was a problem with South Vietnamese soldiers turning their guns on our guys. I may be wrong. That said, how do you train people who may at any minute turn their guns on you?

BuckeyeSam on March 16, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Get the troops out then nuke the place. It and it’s people are worthless savages.

wildcat72 on March 16, 2012 at 7:15 PM

Waterytart ,
With the right amount of thrust even a pig can fly !
Great t shirt .

Lucano on March 16, 2012 at 7:16 PM

Geraldo’s relentless self-promotion and race-first bias, and Shep Smith’s “heart-wrenching” (remember “rape gangs”, SS?)Katrina coverage make them both unwatchable idiots.

trl on March 16, 2012 at 7:17 PM

I am a cold war vet and a desert storm vet. All I have to say is we won the cold war because the local government wanted us out now! STAY THE COURSE!! Remember Achilles died because he was shot by a poison arrow while retreating.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:18 PM

These sentiments are fascinating. So one of a two things is possible,
These people began opposing the Afghanistan occupation well into the Bush Administration once it became clear the mission had extended beyond ending the Taliban. They always knew these truths about Afghanis (for the sake of argument) and have just been silent in their comments while calling the anti-war left traitors.

libfreeordie on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Or unlike me they actually did support trying to help the Afghans and Iraqi’s and have found year after year that what the Muslims see as help is assisting in murdering their enemies. Some people, unlike liberals are capable of learning from experience.

And liberals are anti-western and self-loathing which is why they fall in love with guys like Che, Castro, Yasser Arafat, Hamas, Stalin and Mao. They cling to anyone who is an enemy of the west. I don’t call them traitors because they never had any loyalty to begin with.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:19 PM

Start packing today and get out of that God forsaken place. I am willing to pay for the bullet that someone should plant between Karzai’s eyes before the last soldier leaves.

lhuffman34 on March 16, 2012 at 7:20 PM

These sentiments are fascinating. So one of a two things is possible,
These people began opposing the Afghanistan occupation well into the Bush Administration once it became clear the mission had extended beyond ending the Taliban. They always knew these truths about Afghanis (for the sake of argument) and have just been silent in their comments while calling the anti-war left traitors.

Or second, these folks have to find some way to rationalize in their minds the failure of America’s latest imperial nation-building gambit. And in order to do they are engaging in some pretty ugly comments about the Afghanis.

I’m not sure which is worse.

libfreeordie on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Afghanis is Afghan “Money” A native of Afghanistan is called an Afghan.

Second, I have been consistently stating we should get out of Afghanistan for some time now. If we need to hunt Al Qeada in the region, Afghanistan is not the only “Stan” in the region where we can stage our troops.

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:20 PM

msupertas ME TOO!!!!!!

MaiDee on March 16, 2012 at 7:20 PM

Notice the parsing by Karzai. He does not want the military gone, just wants them to stay inside the bases. You know, so they can deploy in a moment’s notice to save Hamid’s sorry, duplicitous, back-stabbing, corrupt azz.

Damn I sound like some 60′s hippie, but OUT NOW. There is nothing there to preserve for humanity but a bunch of 12th Century Muslim savages.

BigAlSouth on March 16, 2012 at 7:22 PM

Afghanis is Afghan “Money” A native of Afghanistan is called an Afghan.
Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:20 PM

Their monetary system is also hopeless and backwards. (That’ll get the lefties sobbing even louder, heh).

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:23 PM

Say thank you to the troops, and bring them home, they’ve done their job with honor.

0bamaderangementsyndrom on March 16, 2012 at 6:38 PM

I think you win the prize for most surprising post in thread, in addition to my total agreement.

The troops have done all they humanly can at this point. Short of outright colonizing the place, which no 1st world nation is going to do, it is physically impossible to change Afghanistan.

It’s long time to declare this mess over before yet more of our soldier’s lives are wasted.

MelonCollie on March 16, 2012 at 7:24 PM

It is NOT a country or a people. It is a collection of disparate tribes that have not gotten along since Christ walked the earth.

inspectorudy on March 16, 2012 at 7:03 PM

Apparently the disintegration of Afghanistan is much more recent than that. It has known both civilisation and greatness.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:24 PM

These sentiments are fascinating…. I’m not sure which is worse.
 
libfreeordie on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

 
My favorite part is where you left out any discussion about the ROE. Well done.

rogerb on March 16, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Ok after googling Achilles Strike that comment. Sorry.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:27 PM

It has known both civilisation and greatness.
YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:24 PM

Not really, actually it’s always been more just a compst heap filled with savages that civilized people have passed thorough

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:30 PM

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:23 PM

This whole statement by Karzai saying the Afghans can take over security and the coalition can stay on their bases, reminds me of a joke my husband told me, about what they say the acronym ISAF stands for in Afghanistan – I Saw An American Fight :)

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:30 PM

STAY THE COURSE!! Remember Achilles died because he was shot by a poison arrow while retreating.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:18 PM

Not in the Iliad. He was shot by the coward Paris with a poisoned arrow as he scaled the walls of Troy. Achilles was considered “the never defeated”.

Maybe you’re conflating the two characters?

But no ancient Greek folk tale should keep us in a pointless war zone doing nothing but securing Sharia Law for Islamic ingrates.

profitsbeard on March 16, 2012 at 7:31 PM

I am a cold war vet and a desert storm vet. All I have to say is we won the cold war because the local government wanted us out now! STAY THE COURSE!! Remember Achilles died because he was shot by a poison arrow while retreating.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:18 PM

But what is the course? Where is the finishing line?

The Afghan mission started as an AQ hunt and morphed into a nation-building exercise. But you can’t build a great house on the rubble of the existing one; first the old one must be razed, and the ground cleared and new foundations put it. None of that happened. Instead the old foundations were left in place, the old walls were propped-up with cushions, and then the former workmen were allowed to start making ‘repairs’ using their former tools and techniques.

I think Afghanistan could be turned back into a civilised nation and I am sure many of its inhabitants dream of that happening. But it won’t happen without massive upheaval of all that exists there, and there is no political will to do that.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:34 PM

Not really, actually it’s always been more just a compst heap filled with savages that civilized people have passed thorough

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:30 PM

:)
One could say that of most countries, including most “Western” ones.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:36 PM

I think Afghanistan could be turned back into a civilised nation…

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:34 PM

When was Afghanistan civilized? Are you talking about the Khwarazmian Empire?

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:38 PM

profitsbeard on March 16, 2012 at 7:31 PM

Thanks yea I was wrong about that. Lesson learned investigate then post.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:38 PM

I think Afghanistan could be turned back into a civilised nation and I am sure many of its inhabitants dream of that happening. But it won’t happen without massive upheaval of all that exists there, and there is no political will to do that.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:34 PM

Afghanistan is a collection of tribes cobbled together, there is no “Nation” in the true sense of the definition Nation. Karzai is referred to as the Mayor of Kabul. They have been involved in a civil war for decades, we should pick a side and stop pretending there is some kind of unification that is going to take place among all the tribes. I vote Northern Alliance, we make it clear they are who we recognize as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, then we leave.

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:41 PM

Well, crap.
The problem is that we are basically just providing security for Afghanistan (oh, and a lot of charity work, too), rather than really building it up from the ground. As such, we’re more or less stuck with the government that was put in place. We can’t really tare it down and start over, and leaving it to self-destruct is going to re-open it for terrorist bases.
We can leave, but it means we will certainly be back sooner or later.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 7:42 PM

One could say that of most countries, including most “Western” ones.
YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Afghanistan is a country in name only. A meaningless geographic invention fencing in forever-feuding psychotically violent animals. Would be like calling a street corner where the Bloods and the Crips meet to rumble a “country”.

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:42 PM

Afghanistan is a collection of tribes cobbled together, there is no “Nation” in the true sense of the definition Nation.
Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:41 PM

You beat me to the explanation.

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:43 PM

We can leave, but it means we will certainly be back sooner or later.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 7:42 PM

Strategic bombing and Special Forces teams only if you want my opinion. There is no point in an occupation.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:44 PM

This whole statement by Karzai saying the Afghans can take over security and the coalition can stay on their bases, reminds me of a joke my husband told me, about what they say the acronym ISAF stands for in Afghanistan – I Saw An American Fight :)
Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 7:30 PM

Heh, yup. You just can’t save people who don’t want to be saved from themselves.

whatcat on March 16, 2012 at 7:46 PM

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 7:34 PM

I admit we have been there far too long. We should have gone in there with goals, achieve those goals, AND THEN get out. I am torn on this because we have been there too long. If we leave now the extremists will declare victory having driven us out in their eyes. Would that be a good recruitment tool? We need to finish what we started before it became political and ensure it will not become another breeding and training ground for the extremist. Stay the ground, get the job done, and then get out.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:48 PM

Strategic bombing and Special Forces teams only if you want my opinion. There is no point in an occupation.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:44 PM

Wont work. You’ll never get even a fraction of them without a constant presence. They just keep their heads down until the dust settles and rebuild.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 7:50 PM

Strategic bombing and Special Forces teams only if you want my opinion. There is no point in an occupation.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:44 PM

Clinton tried that and it didn’t work for him. We were attacked just after he left office.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Geraldo may be a race baiting immigration wacko, but damn does he love the troops. Gotta say I agree with Geraldo with this one, let the savages wallow in their misery and lets GTFO

MyImamToldMeToDoIt on March 16, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Agreed. But I’d drop a bomb on that patch of sand and turn it into glass on the way out as a ‘Howdeedo’ for Iran, the Taliban & Pakistan.

Danny on March 16, 2012 at 7:53 PM

Wont work. You’ll never get even a fraction of them without a constant presence. They just keep their heads down until the dust settles and rebuild.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 7:50 PM

We don’t have to get all of them, just a lot. We also target their hosts who tolerate their presence. Force them to pay a heavy price in blood and they will soon grow tired of paying for the bill the terrorists bring due. You cannot win a conflict if you do not target your enemies strengths. A host nation or tribe is one of the things a terrorist group needs.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:53 PM

Clinton tried that and it didn’t work for him. We were attacked just after he left office.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:52 PM

Clinton never sent in any bombers. He launched a few missiles at a few camps as a feeble gesture for public consumption.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:55 PM

These sentiments are fascinating. So one of a two things is possible,
These people began opposing the Afghanistan occupation well into the Bush Administration once it became clear the mission had extended beyond ending the Taliban. They always knew these truths about Afghanis (for the sake of argument) and have just been silent in their comments while calling the anti-war left traitors.

Or second, these folks have to find some way to rationalize in their minds the failure of America’s latest imperial nation-building gambit. And in order to do they are engaging in some pretty ugly comments about the Afghanis.

I’m not sure which is worse.

libfreeordie on March 16, 2012 at 7:12 PM

You are clearly no Sherlock Holmes, that’s for sure. I have opposed both Iraq and Afcrapistan for at least 8 years now and have never been silent about it.

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 7:55 PM

BTW, idiot, the Afghans are ugly.

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 7:56 PM

This question is being asked 11 years too late.

Dante on March 16, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Two questions that have plagued me:
(1) In his four tours, how many friends/troops did he have to say good bye to and did he lose someone prior to this; and
(2) Who secured the crime scene?

Claimsratt on March 16, 2012 at 8:09 PM

Afghanistan is a collection of tribes cobbled together, there is no “Nation” in the true sense of the definition Nation. Karzai is referred to as the Mayor of Kabul. They have been involved in a civil war for decades, we should pick a side and stop pretending there is some kind of unification that is going to take place among all the tribes. I vote Northern Alliance, we make it clear they are who we recognize as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, then we leave.

If you read and believed independent war journalism that came out of the area in 2003 and 2004, the US had the opportunity to establish its military hegemony over the entire Afghan country in the years following the US invasion. The Taliban were routed across the country with devastating effect and local warlords were forced to recognize the supremely of the US and its allies. It was a unique juncture in Afghan history.

Instead of consolidating those gains, the US transferred most of its resources to another theater of war in Iraq, and never realized its successful military missions as a clear political outcome in the country. As the remaining allied forces in Afghanistan lacked assets and manpower, the US began resorting to payouts to keep the regional warlords in line, and those warlords eventually began pursuing agendas that often conflicted with US goals and the objective of nation-building.

By the time that the war in Iraq had started winding down, the situation had badly deteriorated into one of stagnation for allied forces that had often turned into sitting ducks for re-emerging Taliban fighters. And it’s clear now that the situation was completely lost many years ago.

Perhaps the mission in Iraq was well worth all the costs but it’s hard to say how it didn’t result in the complete loss of any viable path to ‘victory’ in Afghanistan.

bayam on March 16, 2012 at 8:09 PM

We don’t have to get all of them, just a lot. We also target their hosts who tolerate their presence. Force them to pay a heavy price in blood and they will soon grow tired of paying for the bill the terrorists bring due. You cannot win a conflict if you do not target your enemies strengths. A host nation or tribe is one of the things a terrorist group needs.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:53 PM

You won’t get many at all, and there is no way you will be able to make any difference to the “hosts” (who are mostly being bribed to look the other way) without an occupying force. It may well be that the region will always be occupied by some force or another, simply because it is too desolate and isolated for order to be maintained by the populace.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 8:10 PM

Clinton never sent in any bombers. He launched a few missiles at a few camps as a feeble gesture for public consumption.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 7:55 PM

Point taken but the outcome would be the same.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 8:10 PM

bayam on March 16, 2012 at 8:09 PM

If the insurgents hadn’t been diverted to Iraq, where we had a comparative advantage logistically, Afghanistan probably would have collapsed long ago. In fact, that might be what is going on now that we are pulling out of Iraq.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 8:12 PM

WASHINGTON (AP) — An Afghan soldier shot to death a 22-year-old Marine at an outpost in southwestern Afghanistan last month in a previously undisclosed case of apparent Afghan treachery that marked at least the seventh killing of an American military member by his supposed ally in the past six weeks, Marine officials said.

Lance Cpl. Edward J. Dycus of Greenville, Miss., was shot in the back of the head on Feb. 1 while standing guard at an Afghan-U.S. base in the Marja district of Helmand province. The exact circumstances have not been disclosed, but the Dycus family has been notified that he was killed by an Afghan soldier. Marine officials discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because it is still under investigation.

When the Pentagon announced Dycus’ death the day after the shooting, it said he died “while conducting combat operations” in Helmand. It made no mention of treachery, which has become a growing problem for U.S. and allied forces as they work closely with Afghan forces to wind down the war. …

The Associated Press inquired about the Dycus case after Maj. Gen. John Toolan, the top Marine commander in Afghanistan at the time, said in an AP interview March 7 that the Afghan government has been embarrassed by recent cases of Afghan soldiers turning their guns on their supposed partners.

“I had one just a month ago where a lance corporal was killed, shot in the back of the head, and the Afghan minister of defense was here the next day” to discuss custody of the shooter, Toolan said, speaking from his Regional Command-Southwest headquarters at Camp Leatherneck.

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 8:15 PM

Point taken but the outcome would be the same.

torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 8:10 PM

That wasn’t the experience during ‘Operation Linebacker II’ in Vietnam when mass bombing was allowed, nor over Germany and Japan in World War Two.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 8:15 PM

I am torn on this because we have been there too long.

Understood. I also hate the idea of leaving without clear success.

However, that is my pride talking, and I am not on the front-line being shot at. If I were risking my life for ‘the cause’ I’d jolly well like to know what the cause is, and how it is going to be accomplished.

If we leave now the extremists will declare victory having driven us out in their eyes.

Yes they will, and that isn’t a happy thought.

Would that be a good recruitment tool?

Hmmm. Don’t know. I am inclined to think not.

We need to finish what we started before it became political and ensure it will not become another breeding and training ground for the extremist. Stay the ground, get the job done, and then get out.
torpedoman2002 on March 16, 2012 at 7:48 PM

Here I disagree very much. The breeding grounds for extremists are the cities of Europe and the Americas. In these places they can indulge in the luxury of despising the societies and values that cradle and nurse them.

Islam is now being fuelled by liberal societies that are determined to be ‘inclusive’ and ‘tolerant’ even if it kills them, which it will. For the most part, these Muslim warriors exercise their rage using weapons and telecoms that were created by the supposedly inferior infidels.

The way to overcome Islam is to leave them alone. By themselves they will accomplish nothing of significance. Let them have their tyrants and their civil wars, and leave them to it until it is done. If they attack shipping (a-la piracy), destroy them. If they provide training bases for ‘terrorists’ destroy them. Mock the failure of their societies.

Their ideology is one of supremacy, that Allah loves Muslims and hates infidels. They need to be reminded constantly of just how useless their societies are, and of how they have had to come to infidel lands to find safety and prosperity and even the weapons they use to fight. Let them fester and rot in their ‘house of Islam’ until their wretched condition forces them to admit that actually, their ‘god’, Allah, despises Muslims above all others.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 8:16 PM

bayam on March 16, 2012 at 8:09 PM

Afghanistan the graveyard of empires, General David Patraeus.

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 8:16 PM

When the Pentagon announced Dycus’ death the day after the shooting, it said he died “while conducting combat operations” in Helmand.

Yet another in a long list of our generals flat out lying to us.

VorDaj on March 16, 2012 at 8:17 PM

You won’t get many at all, and there is no way you will be able to make any difference to the “hosts” (who are mostly being bribed to look the other way) without an occupying force.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 8:10 PM

If you target Kabul with mass bombing raids until the host Afghan regime agrees to end assistance to the terrorists it will work. I am not talking about trying to hit some pinpoint outpost somewhere.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 8:18 PM

If you target Kabul with mass bombing raids until the host Afghan regime agrees to end assistance to the terrorists it will work. I am not talking about trying to hit some pinpoint outpost somewhere.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 8:18 PM

(a) This would incur the wrath of the entire world, and would be illegal according to the rules of war.

(b) It is completely unnecessary. Far better, I think, to do nothing and let them destroy themselves.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Stay the course? Brilliant plan. In Opposite World.

CVMA-Dredd on March 16, 2012 at 8:26 PM

If you target Kabul with mass bombing raids until the host Afghan regime agrees to end assistance to the terrorists it will work. I am not talking about trying to hit some pinpoint outpost somewhere.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 8:18 PM

Have you ever looked into the second Sino-Japanese war?
Mass bombings of population centers that supported terrorists were exactly what caused the Japanese to fall out of favor with the rest of the world, and ultimately lead to them attacking Pearl Harbor.
In other words, no one (especially not Congress) would put up with a President who ordered that.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 8:28 PM

If you read and believed independent war journalism that came out of the area in 2003 and 2004, the US had the opportunity to establish its military hegemony over the entire Afghan country in the years following the US invasion. The Taliban were routed across the country with devastating effect and local warlords were forced to recognize the supremely of the US and its allies. It was a unique juncture in Afghan history.

Instead of consolidating those gains, the US transferred most of its resources to another theater of war in Iraq, and never realized its successful military missions as a clear political outcome in the country. As the remaining allied forces in Afghanistan lacked assets and manpower, the US began resorting to payouts to keep the regional warlords in line, and those warlords eventually began pursuing agendas that often conflicted with US goals and the objective of nation-building.

By the time that the war in Iraq had started winding down, the situation had badly deteriorated into one of stagnation for allied forces that had often turned into sitting ducks for re-emerging Taliban fighters. And it’s clear now that the situation was completely lost many years ago.

Perhaps the mission in Iraq was well worth all the costs but it’s hard to say how it didn’t result in the complete loss of any viable path to ‘victory’ in Afghanistan.

bayam on March 16, 2012 at 8:09 PM

Afghanistan the graveyard of empires, General David Patraeus.

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 8:16 PM

Yes… nonetheless the US had clearly had attained a clear position of military and political hegemony over the Afghan nation in the first year of the war, and then within another several years largely lost those gains, with no realistic path to restoring its initial position of strength. My subjective observation was that US leaders had placed the Afghan situation ‘on hold’ until the end of the conflict in Iraq, based on a very flawed assumption that our early gains and supremacy could be held my a small occupying force. Someone who served in Afghanistan in 2002 to 2003 can obviously comment on the situation with more authority.

It’s the type of hubris displayed by large powers over history. Once the US decided to pull significant resources out of the country to focus on Iraq, it should have left Afghanistan permanently, realizing that without the momentum of its victories and presence on the ground to keep the warlords in line, no other nation-building or political goals were realistically achievable.

bayam on March 16, 2012 at 8:29 PM

(a) This would incur the wrath of the entire world,

That and ten dollars will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

and would be illegal according to the rules of war.

It wasn’t illegal in World War Two, and I don’t care. Rules of war apply to those willing to abide by them and they clearly are not.

(b) It is completely unnecessary. Far better, I think, to do nothing and let them destroy themselves.

YiZhangZhe on March 16, 2012 at 8:24 PM

That isn’t how it works. 911 is a fact and if we do nothing they will continue to attempt strikes and they only have to succeed once and we have to be 100% effective. That is a formula for defeat in the long term. They aren’t going to destroy themselves. They are fine living the way they do and have done it for centuries.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 8:30 PM

Afghanistan the graveyard of empires, General David Patraeus.

Dr Evil on March 16, 2012 at 8:16 PM

Pretty much only because it always seemed like such a tempting target to empires that are already over-stretched.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 8:30 PM

Sammy316 on March 16, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Bravo Sammy…Bravo.

You made my day. Common sense always does.

Twana on March 16, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Have you ever looked into the second Sino-Japanese war?
Mass bombings of population centers that supported terrorists were exactly what caused the Japanese to fall out of favor with the rest of the world, and ultimately lead to them attacking Pearl Harbor.
In other words, no one (especially not Congress) would put up with a President who ordered that.

Count to 10 on March 16, 2012 at 8:28 PM

You know I suspect the Dec 7th Pearl Harbor attack had a lot more to do with it than than the Chinese intervention. All the outrage over Italy in Abyssinia, Japan in China and Germany in Europe didn’t amount to a hill of beans until they posed a strategic threat to the allied nations.

If we do not want to get serious about fighting the Islamic terror campaign then no tactic or strategy will matter.

sharrukin on March 16, 2012 at 8:36 PM

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