Catholic bishop warns HHS mandate will mean an end to Catholic hospitals, clinics, charities

posted at 12:10 pm on February 27, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Will Catholic bishops eventually drop their objections to the HHS mandate and comply, even though it would require them to fund and facilitate access to contraception, sterilization, and abortifacients like IUDs and “ella” that violate their deeply-held doctrines on the sanctity of life?  Not according to Francis Cardinal George, archbishop of Barack Obama’s home town of Chicago.  In a missive to parishioners on the first Sunday of Lent, Cardinal George warns that the Catholic Church will shut down its hospitals, clinics, and charities before submitting to the mandate — and provides a little history lesson as well:

What will happen if the HHS regulations are not rescinded? A Catholic institution, so far as I can see right now, will have one of four choices: 1) secularize itself, breaking its connection to the church, her moral and social teachings and the oversight of its ministry by the local bishop. This is a form of theft. It means the church will not be permitted to have an institutional voice in public life. 2) Pay exorbitant annual fines to avoid paying for insurance policies that cover abortifacient drugs, artificial contraception and sterilization. This is not economically sustainable. 3) Sell the institution to a non-Catholic group or to a local government. 4) Close down. …

Since 1915, the Catholic bishops of the United States have taught that basic health care should be accessible to all in a just society. Two years ago, we asked that whatever instruments were crafted to care for all, the Hyde and Weldon and Church amendments restricting funding for abortion and respecting institutional conscience continue to be incorporated into law. They were excluded. As well, the present health care reform act doesn’t cover entire sections of the U.S. population. It is not universal.

The provision of health care should not demand “giving up” religious liberty. Liberty of religion is more than freedom of worship. Freedom of worship was guaranteed in the Constitution of the former Soviet Union. You could go to church, if you could find one. The church, however, could do nothing except conduct religious rites in places of worship-no schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and the works of mercy that flow naturally from a living faith. All of these were co-opted by the government. We fought a long cold war to defeat that vision of society.

The strangest accusation in this manipulated public discussion has the bishops not respecting the separation between church and state. The bishops would love to have the separation between church and state we thought we enjoyed just a few months ago, when we were free to run Catholic institutions in conformity with the demands of the Catholic faith, when the government couldn’t tell us which of our ministries are Catholic and which not, when the law protected rather than crushed conscience. The state is making itself into a church. The bishops didn’t begin this dismaying conflict nor choose its timing. We would love to have it ended as quickly as possible. It’s up to the government to stop the attack.

Insofar as advocates of the mandate insist that Catholic bishops are out of touch with their own congregations, Cardinal George exposes this as a big non-sequitur:

Practically, we’re told that the majority of Catholics use artificial contraception. There are properly medical reasons, in some circumstances, for the use of contraceptive pills, as everyone knows. But even if contraceptives were used by a majority of couples only and exclusively to suppress a possible pregnancy, behavior doesn’t determine morality. If it can be shown that a majority of Catholic students cheat on their exams, it is still wrong to cheat on exams. Trimming morality to how we behave guts the Gospel call to conversion of life and rejection of sin.

Theoretically, it is argued that there are Catholic voices that disagree with the teaching of the church and therefore with the bishops. There have always been those whose personal faith is not adequate to the faith of the church. Perhaps this is the time for everyone to re-read the Acts of the Apostles. Bishops are the successors of the apostles; they collectively receive the authority to teach and govern that Christ bestowed upon the apostles. Bishops don’t claim to speak for every baptized Catholic. Bishops speak, rather, for the Catholic and apostolic faith. Those who hold that faith gather with them; others go their own way. They are and should be free to do so, but they deceive themselves and others in calling their organizations Catholic.

Although Cardinal George doesn’t spell this out, this is the crux of the difference between the church and the Obama administration.  Membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary, as is employment in their extended organizations like schools, hospitals, and the like.  If people don’t like the teachings of the church or want to work for an employer willing to give them contraception at no expense, they are free to seek those associations as they like.  Obama and his HHS want to force Catholic organizations to accept the administration doctrine on contraception, sterilization, and abortifacients, and force Catholic organizations to fund and facilitate access to them — by declaring which organizations the church runs to be authentically religious and which are not, an arrogance without precedent in the US, although certainly precedents in other political models abound, as Cardinal George points out.

The church may have to demonstrate the proper jurisdiction for that designation, George warns, if the government insists on forcing religious organizations to violate their own principles:

If you haven’t already purchased the Archdiocesan Directory for 2012, I would suggest you get one as a souvenir. On page L-3, there is a complete list of Catholic hospitals and health care institutions in Cook and Lake counties. Each entry represents much sacrifice on the part of medical personnel, administrators and religious sponsors. Each name signifies the love of Christ to people of all classes and races and religions. Two Lents from now, unless something changes, that page will be blank.

Catholics may be giving up some luxuries for Lent, but the bishops aren’t giving up this fight.  They seem ready to make this a weekly battle with the Obama administration, and willing to escalate it to the point of closing doors and stopping services, a move that will make the issue acute in many of the areas where Obama normally would draw his most fervent support.

Update: A lot of people in the comments and on Twitter think that closing the Catholic institutions is what Obama has in mind, in order to make people more dependent on government.  Possibly, but the outcome will mean skyrocketing spending and angering a lot of people who will find out just how limited government intervention actually is.  Sounds like one of those ivory-tower solutions that always succeed in theory … kind of like Obamanomics.


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So there’s just no way around it, huh? If you work for at catholic hospital, or any type of the varied catholic institutions, you just can’t get contraception on your insurance, no matter what, can’t happen, sorry? Shouldn’t YOUR insurance choices be yours as an individual no matter where you work?

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 1:53 PM

Birth control with generic pills is $4 a month. Stop hyperventilating.

http://clearhealthcosts.com/tag/birth-control-pills/

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Not to mention that contraceptives are the best defense we have against abortions.

You don’t understand human biology, do you?

NoDonkey on February 27, 2012 at 2:00 PM

So there’s just no way around it, huh? If you work for at catholic hospital, or any type of the varied catholic institutions, you just can’t get contraception on your insurance, no matter what, can’t happen, sorry? Shouldn’t YOUR insurance choices be yours as an individual no matter where you work?

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 1:53 PM

Absolutely, if you pay for your own stinken insurance!

I would prefer we shift the burden from employers to employees. Give individuals a tax credit to buy their own insurance. This would also have the added bonus of putting downward pressure on prices as the individuals using the product are now also the purchasers of said product. But if you are going to get your insurance through your employer you might find you don’t always get what you want.

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:01 PM

The priest had already removed from service long before this. This had to do with defrocking, which takes time and certain legal procedures. So you’re just being mendacious.
theCork on February 27, 2012 at 1:53 PM

Wrong.

Published: February 11, 2006

“A lawsuit has been filed against Cardinal Francis George and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago on behalf of an 11-year-old boy who has accused a priest of molesting him. The lawsuit accuses the defendants of negligence in failing to act on abuse accusations that were known as early as 2000 and in not removing or supervising the accused priest. The suit, which was filed in Cook County Circuit Court on Thursday, seeks more than $100,000 in damages. The priest, the Rev. Daniel McCormack, 37, a former priest at St. Agatha Catholic Church in Chicago, has been charged with aggravated criminal sexual abuse and accused of fondling three boys. The archdiocese did not respond to a phone message seeking comment. GRETCHEN RUETHLING (NYT)

This is just one single reference to the guy and what went on, it goes much deeper, you need that too? This wasn’t about defrocking a removed priest. This was about keeping an abusive priest on that he was warned about and was later arrested and found guilty. He did nothing but ignore advice to the contrary.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:02 PM

Okay – I’ll play that game – and thusly, I googled all over the planet for a Catholic Bishop or Cardinal who took issue with the CHA in its endorsement of ObamaCare – and I can’t find a single one who opposed it. So they certainly heard the CHA give a green light to ObamaCare – and the Bishops let that stand without challenge. Tacit support … support for ObamaCare – the very instrument they now have a problem with.

HondaV65 on February 27, 2012 at 1:43 PM

You didn’t work too hard on Google. I spent 1 minute and found THIS posted on…you guessed it….Hot Air.

timberline on February 27, 2012 at 2:03 PM

What really makes me upset in all of this is the fact that a bunch of unmarried men think they can determine whats good for a woman.

liberal4life on February 27, 2012 at 12:51 PM

The govt has given women (and women only)the right to kill. Is that “equal protection?”

Bevan on February 27, 2012 at 2:03 PM

Talk about St. Elsewhere.

Is it possible that the American Catholic Church is learning something? Or is this the thing that actually ruptures the Catholic Church in two?

There are plenty of lefty Catholics (the guitar-strumming, Sandinista-loving types). What are they going to do as the American Catholic Church begins to align itself with its Roman Catholic origins?

EMD on February 27, 2012 at 2:03 PM

EMD on February 27, 2012 at 2:03 PM

The pendulum went too far to the left, post-Vatican II.

We need a Vatican III.

NoDonkey on February 27, 2012 at 2:06 PM

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:02 PM

The subject of this forum is “Catholic bishop warns HHS mandate will mean an end to Catholic hospitals, clinics, charities”.

Try staying on topic, laddy boy.

timberline on February 27, 2012 at 2:07 PM

Absolutely, if you pay for your own stinken insurance!
I would prefer we shift the burden from employers to employees. Give individuals a tax credit to buy their own insurance. This would also have the added bonus of putting downward pressure on prices as the individuals using the product are now also the purchasers of said product. But if you are going to get your insurance through your employer you might find you don’t always get what you want.
NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:01 PM

And THIS? THIS I absolutely agree with. Employee based health insurance is a failing model here. It should between individuals and private insurance companies. People would be paid more at work cause the employers would have a smaller bottom line. Things like this don’t happen. It’s a better idea. But we have an employer based system, and in America, you should be able to purchase the plan and coverage you want and can afford whoever you work for and no pedophile protecting bishop is gonna tell me different.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:08 PM

The issue is religious liberty.

talkingpoints on February 27, 2012 at 1:52 PM

No, the issue is “liberty”. Just “liberty”. Not religious liberty, not freedom of speech liberty, not 2A liberty, not right to be free in your possessions liberty, but plain ol’ Jeffersonian LIBERTY!

In this case the infringement of liberty is against religious institutions. It is their ox getting gored. However, they historically jump up and down, wave flags, picket, lobby politicians and preach from the pulpit regularly to infringe upon any number of my liberties through the use of the government’s power to confiscate my wealth, incarcerate me or threaten lethal force if I refuse to comply. As I said, I will fight this fight by their side, but I know that the moment it is won that they will immediately begin again to support lawlessness and encroachments on all of the Bill of Rights but the 1st and 4th – you know, the only ones they think directly benefit them.

deepdiver on February 27, 2012 at 2:09 PM

Birth control with generic pills is $4 a month. Stop hyperventilating.
http://clearhealthcosts.com/tag/birth-control-pills/

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Right, but the pap smears, check-ups, and resulting tests women go through to maintain their prescriptions are not.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

You didn’t work too hard on Google. I spent 1 minute and found THIS posted on…you guessed it….Hot Air.

timberline on February 27, 2012 at 2:03 PM

Toche! You found it – I stand corrected … sort of.

Read the whole article – it states really, that the only thing the Bishops oppose in the bill are the abortion provisions.

NO WHERE – do they mention anything about the contraception issues. No where – do they say that ObamaCare is a liberty killing bill.

So they’re cool with ObamaCare as long as the abortion provisions are stricken – and now, they want the contraception provisions stricken also.

But they’re totally cool with the liberty killing issues that you and I will have to deal with.

Eff ‘em.

HondaV65 on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

JAM on February 27, 2012 at 1:36 PM

Thanks. These ignorant hypocrites really pizz me off. Make no mistake:

Progs are only Pro-Choice when it comes to uteri, rectums, and pot.

They are ANTI-choice on everything else.

And, Boomer, they will close the hospitals and I, an atheist, will be fighting along side them all the way.

The Church doesn’t offend, scare, or bother me in the least.

“When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” – Thomas Jefferson

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:13 PM

Not to mention that contraceptives are the best defense we have against abortions.

You don’t understand human biology, do you?

NoDonkey on February 27, 2012 at 2:00 PM

Sure, abstinence works well too, if people actually adhere to it.

But they aren’t, so I don’t really take issue with what that commenter said.

However, as other people have pointed out the main issue is religious and personal liberty. And if someone works for a Catholic organization and wants access to birth control they should be able to get it on their own. . . HA’s fav organization PP is supposed to provide it at little or no cost.

cmsciulli on February 27, 2012 at 2:14 PM

As a country, we need to fight for our religious freedom or we will lose it and have no one at all to blame but ourselves. We have a chance this November to fight back at the ballot box. The forces of evil have laid their cards on the table. We can win if we will only fight!

BillCarson on February 27, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Membership in the Catholic Church is voluntary, as is employment in their extended organizations like schools, hospitals, and the like. If people don’t like the teachings of the church or want to work for an employer willing to give them contraception at no expense, they are free to seek those associations as they like.

Familiar argument. It’s brought out when the subject is smoking bans, but has never persuaded those determined to impose their will.

VerbumSap on February 27, 2012 at 2:14 PM

Right, but the pap smears, check-ups, and resulting tests women go through to maintain their prescriptions are not.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

The pedophile hiding bishops aren’t bitching about pap smears and check-ups. They’re bitching about birth control pills and all the rest of abortion inducing drugs and procedures.

Try to keep up with the rest of us without straying off the subject, dude.

timberline on February 27, 2012 at 2:15 PM

deepdiver on February 27, 2012 at 2:09 PM

You only think its their ox being gored this time because you agree with THIS intrusion into the individual liberty of women working in their hospitals. When their religious principles disagree with yours like the ones you outline above, oh hell, let their ox get gored by god.

This issue is so absolutely rife with hypocrisy they need to just bite the bullet and pick a better battle. Like obamacare in general, but oh wait, they supported that huh, on their “religious principles”?

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:16 PM

“When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” – Thomas Jefferson

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:13 PM

Are you Mark Steyn’s little sister?

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:17 PM

What is WRONG with you people? A lib throws you a softball and you whiff on it multiple times in these comments.

Why is the catholic church ok with supporting via.gra for male employees but are not ok with supporting birth control for female employees?

An institution run by unmarried men will always be biased towards women…just saying..

liberal4life on February 27, 2012 at 11:58 AM
Do you have a link validating your claim?

timberline on February 27, 2012 at 1:50 PM

The answer, my friends, is that Viagra is NOT a contraceptive. Quite the opposite. The Church is against birth control – not procreation. The first commandment given to man was be fruitful and multiply. This is where the Jewish, and later the Catholic, positions against birth control come from. So this law is not just anti-Catholic or anti-Presyterian. It’s anti-Christian and anti-Jewish as well (even though most Jews, including those in my family, are too liberal to realize that).

Incredulous1 on February 27, 2012 at 2:18 PM

As I said, I will fight this fight by their side, but I know that the moment it is won that they will immediately begin again to support lawlessness and encroachments on all of the Bill of Rights but the 1st and 4th – you know, the only ones they think directly benefit them.

deepdiver on February 27, 2012 at 2:09 PM

That is a terrible mistake. When you know they are going to betray us, you should not be fighting to defend them.

If we are stuck with Obamacare, I do not want the Church to get their exception. If they get their exception, they will continue to be fighting on the side of destroying our liberties, just as they were with Obamacare. If they do not get their exception, the whack up the side of the Church’s head just might be enough to get their attention with regard to the need to protect all of our liberties, not just the ones they like best.

You didn’t work too hard on Google. I spent 1 minute and found THIS posted on…you guessed it….Hot Air.

timberline on February 27, 2012 at 2:03 PM

If you read the article more carefully, you will see it was all about the same things they are fighting about now (abortion and contraception), and that the bishops were okay with the general idea of Obamacare.

They thought they got their exception. Obama lied to them, and they are still too damned stupid to figure out he is always lying.

fadetogray on February 27, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Update: A lot of people in the comments and on Twitter think that closing the Catholic institutions is what Obama has in mind, in order to make people more dependent on government.

What better way to have government be your nanny than to have your nun be kicked to da curb.

….okayyyy, just a little pin prick….there’ll be no more *AAAAAGGGH AAh** do you feel a little sick…….

ted c on February 27, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Published: February 11, 2006

“A lawsuit has been filed against Cardinal Francis George and the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago on behalf of an 11-year-old boy who has accused a priest of molesting him. The lawsuit accuses the defendants of negligence in failing to act on abuse accusations that were known as early as 2000 and in not removing or supervising the accused priest. The suit, which was filed in Cook County Circuit Court on Thursday, seeks more than $100,000 in damages. The priest, the Rev. Daniel McCormack, 37, a former priest at St. Agatha Catholic Church in Chicago, has been charged with aggravated criminal sexual abuse and accused of fondling three boys. The archdiocese did not respond to a phone message seeking comment. GRETCHEN RUETHLING (NYT)

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:02 PM

This has nothing to do with what you were talking about. You said the Vatican had said this priest should be removed. At that time the priest was already out of service. The above account is from a plaintiff seeking cash. Here’s an account of Cardial George’s response

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/national/29george.html?ref=francisegeorge

Keep going trying to slander the Cardinal and every serious religious leader. See how that works for you.

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 2:20 PM

I’ll add one comment, as a 61 year cradle Catholic: The Church will close every one of those Catholic institutions rather than submit to the power of Obama and his henchmen/women. The bishops will absolutely have no other choice.

If the liberals think they will win this brinkmanship, they will win only if their true objective is to shutter thousands of Catholic institutions across the country. They may also win if they are trying to motivate their pagan base. But my knowledge of the Church as a 61 year practicing Catholic (as opposed to Nancy Pelosi types) is that Obama will never force them to buy, one way or another, abortion drugs for their employees.

BillCarson on February 27, 2012 at 2:21 PM

So there’s just no way around it, huh? If you work for at catholic hospital, or any type of the varied catholic institutions, you just can’t get contraception on your insurance, no matter what, can’t happen, sorry? Shouldn’t YOUR insurance choices be yours as an individual no matter where you work?

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 1:53 PM

No. Does your employer-provided insurance pay for Lasix, elective tubal ligation, breast augmentation, all preexisting conditions? Do you get to decide what your deductible or co-pay will be?

If you are unhappy with your health insurance package provided by your employer, then ask to be dropped and get higher compensation in lieu of insurance. Then, you can buy whatever type of policy that you want.

Employer-provided insurance in the US only came about because FDR put in wage controls during the Depression/WWII. Since employers couldn’t compete for talent with wages, they started trying to out do one another with benefit packages, including health insurance. It became a nightmare because it tied your coverage to your job. We should separate the two. If we did, then you would have security and the ability to choose what kind of policy fits your personal needs.

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM

God is currently showing his displeasure with REAL Americans by having it rain on their nascar.

Amen.

KeninCT on February 27, 2012 at 1:50 PM

So are you and your Ball and Chain going to the 3 NASCAR races in CT in April?

Del Dolemonte on February 27, 2012 at 2:25 PM

Wrong again theCork. Very first paragraph of your link.

“CHICAGO, Jan. 28 (AP) — Cardinal Francis George, the archbishop of Chicago, said Saturday that had he known more several months ago about a priest charged with molesting two boys, he might have found a way to remove him from a West Side parish.”

Meaning they didn’t remove him. But, he did have evidence, and was sent recommendations by the Vatican months in advance to act on them and remove the guy, and he refused.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:25 PM

Obama would be very happy is EVERY religious hospital and church closed. Obama is a statist Marxists and believe the government is god, and he doesn’t want any competition.

Axion on February 27, 2012 at 2:27 PM

Are you Mark Steyn’s little sister?

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:17 PM

He got the beard. I got the shoe collection. :-)

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Del Dolemonte on February 27, 2012 at 2:25 PM

That’s friggen hilarious.

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:30 PM

Birth control with generic pills is $4 a month. Stop hyperventilating.
http://clearhealthcosts.com/tag/birth-control-pills/

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Right, but the pap smears, check-ups, and resulting tests women go through to maintain their prescriptions are not.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

And the insurance covers doctor’s visits, just not the prescriptions, the abortion, etc. Changing the subject?

And you are not required to use only the insurance coverage provided by your employer. Even women who work at Catholic institutions have the right to turn it down and go get insurance on the open market. They are also free to work someplace else.

The Catholic church’s decision not to pay for things they object to by faith in no way restricts a single person’s freedom or choice. Not one iota. They don’t have the power to enforce it individually, as all the polls about how many Catholics, on an individual basis, ignore the teachings on this.

However, the mandate does impact the freedom of the Catholic church to not support financially something they object to by faith. That is the issue here, not whether women have access to contraceptives and abortions. Unless the Catholic church gains the power to stop all contraceptive sales and use and shut down every abortion clinic, they can’t impinge on anybody’s freedom.

Everybody is free to believe what they want, and everybody is free to ignore or reject what somebody else believes, or that is how it should be. The Obama administration is saying the Catholic church, as an organization, is NOT free to practice their faith as they want, they must believe as they do.

PastorJon on February 27, 2012 at 2:30 PM

He got the beard. I got the shoe collection. :-)

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:29 PM

Lol. I’m glad he got the beard. :P

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:31 PM

Meaning they didn’t remove him. But, he did have evidence, and was sent recommendations by the Vatican months in advance to act on them and remove the guy, and he refused.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:25 PM

The Cardinal said he didn’t know, despite your interpretation. And as I remember the Vatican recommendation coming much later.

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 2:32 PM

Those who hold that faith gather with them; others go their own way. They are and should be free to do so, but they deceive themselves and others in calling their organizations Catholic.

This^.

The Gospels and teachings of Christ as they relate to the Catholic faith are not akin to a Chinese menu. One does not pick and choose the teachings according to their liking or fancies. Nor are they to be conveniently altered as a method of accommodating what contemporary laymen believe the Catholic Church should interpret as sin according to out Savior. Or finally, more judgmentally, as a means of normalizing and accommodating sin to provide a misguided relief of personal conscience.

One can, on their own, based on whims and their fleeting assessment of contemporary societal practice, suddenly deem something the Catholic Church teaches to be immoral is abruptly moral. But their should be no allusions that the operative phrase here is “on your own”. Because that personal judgment or group-think has nothing to do with the basic principles of Catholic teachings.

Marcus Traianus on February 27, 2012 at 2:33 PM

Obama is likely going to “lose” this fight. He will do something like issue an executive order kicking the can down the road. He will make direct, heartfelt promises in person to Catholic leaders. Then, once he is safely reelected, he will quietly rescind the order when something else is going on, like war in the ME.

People keep believing him. You can’t fix stupid.

fadetogray on February 27, 2012 at 2:34 PM

ernesto on February 27, 2012 at 1:19 PM

LOL. Ignorance is bliss. There are protestant Hospitals, private schools and colleges run by denominations. So I would say they have a institutional voice in the public square.

chemman on February 27, 2012 at 2:35 PM

What’s ironically hilarious about this:

Liberals in the media and public eye are so upset that Tim Tebow is “shoving his religion down our throats” just by proclaiming what he believes. He doesn’t have the power to make you listen, make you believe, restrict your thinking or any such thing but somehow he’s trying to “force” us to be Christian just by saying what he believes. Liberals in this free country are free to look like idiots on this, whining about free speech.

The Obama administration tries to force Catholic institutions to believe as they do about contraception and it’s the Catholic church that’s “in the wrong” according to liberals. Liberals are wrong about this as the Constitution of the United States guarantees religious liberty, but they are whining about the same amendment.

It’s like Liberals want all opposing viewpoints silenced or changed.

Ooops, my bad, duh!

PastorJon on February 27, 2012 at 2:36 PM

We should separate the two. If we did, then you would have security and the ability to choose what kind of policy fits your personal needs.Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:23 PM

I agree entirely. I have stated as much, though in fairness not in that post you quoted. My point is though, we should go that direction because it allows more INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY, rather than INSTITUTIONAL ability to control what can and cannot be on someone’s insurance if they can afford it.

If you’ve got the money, you can get insurance that covers anything you like. That’s how it should be. Not, if you’ve got the money you can purchase any of these pre-determined plans for you by your employers religious ideas.

The catholic church’s runs thousands of institutions employing people who have nothing to do with the faith and are simply professionals in a field. Individual liberty should be more important. Employer based insurance should be scrapped. And in this case, the church should just bite the bullet and accept that those $4 pills you guys seem to think are no big deal for anyone, aren’t gonna be on their invoices anymore.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:37 PM

These guys have given us amnesty, obamacare, a welfare state, and a protected class of pedophiles. They should HAVE to eat this. You reap the whirlwind son.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:39 PM

While I wholeheartedly agree that the HHS law impedes and disgraces religious liberty and is an affront to the 1st Amendment, I cannot shed tears for the Catholic Church.

Their Universities and their doctrine from the Bishops and down the line have embraced, coddled and forwarded liberalism for DECADES.

Now they rent their clothes in outrage. But go to any iconic, “Ivy” Catholic University like Notre Dame, Boston College, Georgetown, etc. and what will you find? Feminazis, Anarchists, “Occupy” type kids, and nary a conservative or republican within 1000 miles of the place.

These Universities are the bane of academic freedom and are drenched in socialistic, progressivism. These are the campuses that birthed “free speech” zones, forced “multiculturalism” and all other types of communistic doctrine clothed in modern day liberalism.

And now they whine about their bed partner, the very contractors they hired to build their new house of “progressive” liberalism?

The Catholic Church deserves this slap in the face. I hope they learn from it, but I won’t hold my breath.

Opposite Day on February 27, 2012 at 2:41 PM

The Cardinal said he didn’t know, despite your interpretation. And as I remember the Vatican recommendation coming much later.
theCork on February 27, 2012 at 2:32 PM

So did Penn State. But I’m not the dim. And the recommendation came months before his eventual arrest and prosecution. It did. I swear.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:41 PM

I enjoyed what Ace said on this: “The state is all. Individuals only matter to the extent they serve the state and the state’s agenda.”

http://minx.cc/?post=327021

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Those of you who think that the Catholic hospitals could close and withhold services, facilities and help to force Obama to back down: that won’t happen, and here is why.

Obama will use force to re-open the hospitals.

He will use provisions within the new law to order the Catholic hospitals to re-open. He’ll order their licenses transferred to new owners.

What? Yes.

Every state licenses health care facilities. You can’t open or run one without a license, and in most states you CAN’T CLOSE ONE WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE LICENSING BOARD (usually the state health board, though it varies from state to state).

If Cardinal George orders the Catholic hospitals in Chicago to close, the state of Illinois will order them re-opened, as they were not ‘given permission’ to close. Check the state law, it’s very clear.

The law exists by the way to prevent disruptions in health care — say a hospital was going to go bankrupt (it happens occasionally). By requiring permission to close, there is an orderly transfer of patients, etc to other hospitals.

So if the good Cardinal George tries this, he’ll be in court defending it.

That takes us to the next point: if the Church tries to enforce its closure of the hospitals by directing employees not to report, by chaining the doors, etc., and ignores the state order to reopen, the state CAN TRANSFER THE LICENSE TO ANOTHER OPERATOR. Who can then operate the hospital. Who says? State law, that’s who. Nice system.

What about the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment? Yes, that will apply to the physical plant, and the state would — eventually — have to come up with the money, either directly if the state operates the hospital or indirectly if another corporation takes over. That will take time, a lot of time if it’s all tied up in court, and who knows how the auditors, evaluators and appraisers will value the property? Ask someone who lost their house so that the state could build a new highway.

So it works like this: Catholic hospitals close. Say nationwide, all at once. Obama declares an ‘emergency’ (which it would be). He leans on the states. Some governors, namely all the Democrats, use their state powers to force the hospitals back open. That breaks the back of the protest, and the Church has to fold.

In the other states with Pub governors, Obama has a variety of other levers. He could order Medicaid funds held, other transfers held, etc. I haven’t read all the pages of the new Obamacare and all the regs that have been written (has anyone?) but I’ll just bet there are rules in there that allow Obama to do more than that.

Think this is far-fetched? Heck, over 60 years ago we had laws that allowed Harry Truman to order striking railroad and steel workers back to their jobs, and to re-open closed steel mills.

So Cardinal George is in my estimation bluffing. He could close the hospitals, but the state (the Feds and the states) simply will not let it happen for very long. The end game is the Church loses all its property. Throw in some hysterical propaganda and you could end up seeing some violence against the Church.

Steve White on February 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Are we still debating the church blackmail the 1st Amendment application in regard to non constitutional government laws?
to those who did not understand, it was like this:
“dear US goverment, please make an exception up hold the U.S. Constitution as you swore an oath to do so on a “Bible”. in Please apply the rule of law to your health insurance mandates, so that women pay more for contraception while they work in our catholic schools and hospitals. If you dont, we will stop healing the sick! As you know, our 2000 years old ecclesiastical laws belief in Jesus Christ as our savior are is not supposed to be usurped more important than by the law of this land of The United States of America… Its a matter of principle religious freedom! A real right not a pretend right protected by law in the U.S. Constitution.”

nathor on February 27, 2012 at 1:59 PM

Dr Evil on February 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM

Right, but the pap smears, check-ups, and resulting tests women go through to maintain their prescriptions are not.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

The insurance pays for women to have yearly pap smears and regular check-ups with their GYN/NP. There are no special tests for a healthy woman to have oral contraceptives. Their regular GP or GYN can write the RX during a regular appointment. The patient just has to pay out of pocket for the elective hormone therapy – the actual pills.
Contraceptives triple the risk for hypertension, and also increase the risk of atherosclerosis, thrombus, MI, high LDL cholesterol and diabetes.

batterup on February 27, 2012 at 2:45 PM

The Obama administration is saying the Catholic church, as an organization, is NOT free to practice their faith as they want, they must believe as they do.
PastorJon on February 27, 2012 at 2:30 PM

The only way you get to a place of claiming they are gonna be paying for this stuff now is by saying that even though they aren’t being charged they’re still somehow paying for it and the only way to keep them from paying for uninvoiced items is to remove access to them all together.

The church is just playing a political game right now and every other intrusion into our personal liberty that they make we all decry, but you’re just fine with this one because you agree with it.

They deserve no sympathy on this and they will not follow through on the threats of this pedophile protecting cardinal.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:47 PM

I, too, believe the entire operation is to shut down Catholic institutions. It’s Greek mythology and Saul Alinsky combined- go after the 600# operation, isolate it, target it, attack it. The rest will fall in line.

The O administration does not care about shutting down Catholic (and Methodist and other denomination hospitals and care centers that are pro-life) – O and cronies want CONTROL and that’s it. O, along with all other totalitarian operations, still think that “their” solution will work. Yep, it will – it will get many of us killed, kill health care, kill innovation, kill the charity of individuals and institutions.

The bishops must hold firm, and sue, sue, sue. Suing takes time but this control issue must stay “out there.” WHile I’m of the school of thought that the Catholic institutions brought some of this on themselves (“we will always be exempt b/c of the First Amendment), nevertheless, they are correct in fighting this. I hope they hold firm. Ansd, they also will have to assess whom they’ve supported politically in the past (Notre Dame) and whom they will support in the future. Votes are still secret – at least the last time I checked.

Any president who avoids the Constitution as O has done, is just wrong. Powerful? yes. Wrong, yes

MN J on February 27, 2012 at 2:47 PM

But more importantly, no business owner should be required to participate in programs that are in conflict with his/her beliefs. And no individual should be required to have a health insurance policy that automatically includes coverage for treatments that conflict with his/her beliefs.

Politically, this may be seen primarily as an attack on the Catholic Church, but in reality it is primarily an attack on the religious freedom of individual Americans. Even if the administration eventually offers a permanent exclusion to Churches and Church related institutions, individual believers will still have their religious freedom abrogated and that is unacceptable if we want to remain a free people.

Ordinary American on February 27, 2012 at 12:51 PM

THIS. While the CC may be the face of the attack on the 1st Amendment, it is not the sole target. The targets include even me as a business owner being forced to pay for items that I have no wish to carry, let alone pay for.

The worse thing the Govt ever did was encourage businesses to carry insurance as a fringe, when it should have been the sole responsibility of the worker to find and maintain a commercial relationship with the insurance of their choice to manage their health risks. Furthermore, the BC issue is totally a false narrative; are there anyone out there demanding that auto insurance cover routine parts/maintenance?

IIRC, there was a business owner in MI about 6 or 7 years ago that had a policy that forbade employees from smoking. His point was he had no use for any smoking employyes. My reaction was that he’s an idiot, but at the same time, it should be his right as the job creator to DICTATE what he would or would not carry. That is his fundamental right to exercise his anti-smoker belief. If someone doesn’t like it, they need not apply for a job with him and for those already working for him, they were looking for a job when they landed there and now it’s time to either quit or go find another.

AH_C on February 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM

These guys have given us amnesty, obamacare, a welfare state, and a protected class of pedophiles. They should HAVE to eat this. You reap the whirlwind son.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:39 PM

There is no reason for Notre Dame to have hosted the most pro abortion President in our history nor Georgetown and let them cover up the religious symbols.

When you dance with the devil, he get’s to pick the tune.

Or in the words of Rev Jeremiah Wright: Their chickens are coming home to roost.

Dr Evil on February 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM

Steve White on February 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM

After the hospital closes we will likely find that there is a willing buyer-FOB (Friend of Bammie) willing to pick it up for rock-bottom pricing. Is the slob Warren Buffett involved in hospitals?

slickwillie2001 on February 27, 2012 at 2:53 PM

What really makes me upset in all of this is the fact that a bunch of unmarried men think they can determine whats good for a woman.

liberal4life on February 27, 2012 at 12:51 PM

It’s not their belief in it that matters, it’s the womens’ themselves, since Church membership is (wait for it…) voluntary.

If any actual, as opposed to theoretical, woman disagrees with that they say, she can join a different religion, or none at all.

We call that “free will”. As to yourself, maybe it’s YOU who should keep your nose out of womens’ decisions.

Dirty Creature on February 27, 2012 at 2:54 PM

BTW, since you insist on doing a cut-and-paste with your comment in every thread, you may want to change “biased toward” with “biased against,” unless you’re arguing that the church is upholding the dignity of women by affirming their life-giving role. Somehow, though, I doubt that’s what you mean.
Ed Morrissey on February 27, 2012 at 12:17 PM
Thanks for the correction on the “biased toward” and “biased against,”
back to the topic…
My current health insurance covers Ed drugs since some providers actually treat ED as a medical condition which can lead to depression and suicide. So yes in some circles ED is treated as a medical condition and the catholic church has no issue paying for those drugs…
liberal4life on February 27, 2012 at 12:33 PM

I could care less why. It’s not my business, your business or the government’s.

gwelf on February 27, 2012 at 2:56 PM

These guys have given us amnesty, obamacare, a welfare state, and a protected class of pedophiles. They should HAVE to eat this. You reap the whirlwind son.

Boomer_Sooner

WHy? Because you say so? It is a clear violation of the First Amendment and the “compromise” is BS. They still have to pay for it, especially those institutions that self-insure. Whatever positions the Catholic Church has taken prior to this, have nothing to do w/the infringement upon the First Amendment. Keep trying to make this about women, BC, pedophiles and whatever else you’re trying to make stick, b/c you aren’t convincing anyone w/knowledge of the COnstitution and what is a clear violation of it.

JAM on February 27, 2012 at 2:56 PM

And in this case, the church should just bite the bullet and accept that those $4 pills you guys seem to think are no big deal for anyone, aren’t gonna be on their invoices anymore.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:37 PM

1. I am not a guy.

2. I don’t have a problem with contraception.

3. Contraception is not the issue.

4. I am a rabid constitutionalist and a lawyer. The First Amendment trumps Obama’s diktat. Not only does his mandate infringe upon religious liberty, he has assumed the power to order private businesses to provide services and goods for “free.” Hysterectomies cost much more than $4.

5. I am a libertarian and will always come down on the side of the individual and organisation. The Constitution guarantees us rights and certain freedoms from the government. It does not guarantee us bennies. For example, the Supreme Court has ruled that there is no right to Social Security, Medicare, healthcare, particular types of medical treatment if the government is paying, public education, welfare, housing, voting per se, or even food.

6. The Supreme Court has ruled many times that you do NOT have a right to a job; thus, no one has a right to work for a Catholic organisation. If you want to work for a hospital or university that endorses abortion, homosexuality, atheism, UFOlogy, or whatever, then go work for one. Everyone knows what the positions of the Catholic Church are. The government CANNOT mandate a religious organisation violate its basic tenets. It CANNOT decide what is a religious organisation for tax purposes, but not a religious organisation for employer purposes. It CANNOT dictate or interfere with religious dogma.

7. Read the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, which passed the House unanimously and the Senate 97 to 3 and was signed into law by Bill Clinton. Read Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah 508 U.S. 520 (1993).

Your blithe “bite the bullet” dismissal of the First Amendment completely contradicts your cri de liberté. The Church IS made up of individuals.

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 2:59 PM

There is no reason for Notre Dame to have hosted the most pro abortion President in our history nor Georgetown and let them cover up the religious symbols.
When you dance with the devil, he get’s to pick the tune.
Or in the words of Rev Jeremiah Wright: Their chickens are coming home to roost.
Dr Evil on February 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM

EXACTLY. And the Catholic church has been dancing with the devil for a whole now, and now they’re inviting all of you again INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY to try to slow down the tune. But they’re be right back at it again once this political ploy has run its course.

They had a point when they had to foot the bill. Now that it’s the insurance companies responsibility, you made your bed, now you can lie in it. We wouldn’t have Obamacare if you hadn’t helped push it. You don’t get out of it now of we can’t.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:00 PM

What really makes me upset in all of this is the fact that a bunch of unmarried men think they can determine whats good for a woman.
liberal4life on February 27, 2012 at 12:51 PM

Heaven forbid people actually pay for things they use.
And heaven forbid the government not force people and institutions to do act against their free will and conscience in order to “provide” these things to others.

Your lack of reason is stunning. We can’t have a male head of HHS?

gwelf on February 27, 2012 at 3:03 PM

….okayyyy, just a little pin prick….there’ll be no more *AAAAAGGGH AAh** do you feel a little sick…….

ted c on February 27, 2012 at 2:19 PM

Would seem like more than most are no longer comfortaly numb.

AH_C on February 27, 2012 at 3:04 PM

They had a point when they had to foot the bill. Now that it’s the insurance companies responsibility, you made your bed, now you can lie in it. We wouldn’t have Obamacare if you hadn’t helped push it. You don’t get out of it now of we can’t.

Boomer_Sooner

You’re a fool. You actually believe the insurance companies are going to cover it for “free!” Yeah, b/c Obama said so, right? All of the premiums will go up for all the institutions in order to cover all that free contraception. The CC is still paying for it. The shell game shifts the costs around, but the end result is the same.

JAM on February 27, 2012 at 3:05 PM

This holds institutional liberty over personal liberty. Many of you agree with it now but you’ll be lamenting AGAIN, when it comes back around on us, AGAIN. They wouldn’t be in this situation if they hadn’t advocated for Obamacare over individual liberty, and if the contraceptives are billed to the insurance companies, the Catholic church already got off easier than the rest of us because of their mistake.

The institution is not a shining beacon, it’s political, and they’ve got enough crimes against liberty on their hands that they get no sympathy from me here beyond it being justified that it’s taken off of their invoices.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:08 PM

Think this is far-fetched? Heck, over 60 years ago we had laws that allowed Harry Truman to order striking railroad and steel workers back to their jobs, and to re-open closed steel mills.

Harry Truman got slapped down by the Supreme Court (6-3) and the country was at war at the time. See: Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 (1952).

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:09 PM

Think this is far-fetched? Heck, over 60 years ago we had laws that allowed Harry Truman to order striking railroad and steel workers back to their jobs, and to re-open closed steel mills.

Harry Truman got slapped down by the Supreme Court (6-3) and the country was at war at the time. See: Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer, 343 U.S. 579 (1952).

Sorry about that.

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:11 PM

You only think its their ox being gored this time because you agree with THIS intrusion into the individual liberty of women working in their hospitals. When their religious principles disagree with yours like the ones you outline above, oh hell, let their ox get gored by god.

This issue is so absolutely rife with hypocrisy they need to just bite the bullet and pick a better battle. Like obamacare in general, but oh wait, they supported that huh, on their “religious principles”?

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:16 PM

Hypocrisy from me on this issue?? You have seriously misread something. I do NOT agree with the gov’t telling the Church (big C not little c) of any faith to pay for anything for anyone. That has nothing to do with any agreement with any church on any issue of theology, faith or social policy. I do not agree with the gov’t telling any citizen to purchase any product, to produce any product or to invest in any product. I oppose Obamacare and all of its underlying tenets.

deepdiver on February 27, 2012 at 3:11 PM

Boomer_Sooner,

The Catholic Church is not the only player in this. On 21 December 2011, Colorado Christian (NOT CATHOLIC) University sued Kathleen Sebelius over this issue. It is a Protestant university and doesn’t have a doctrinal issue with contraception.

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:13 PM

You’re a fool. You actually believe the insurance companies are going to cover it for “free!” Yeah, b/c Obama said so, right? All of the premiums will go up for all the institutions in order to cover all that free contraception. The CC is still paying for it. The shell game shifts the costs around, but the end result is the same.
JAM on February 27, 2012 at 3:05 PM

Do you not get it? I.don’t.care. It’s not on their invoices anymore and the argument you make their is the EXACT same argument brain dead liberals make regarding why we need single-payer or mandated health insurance coverage, because you don’t think that that insurance conpany or that hospital doesn’t pass the cost on to you raising your premiums because of those without insurance?

Sure they do. But the church wouldn’t be mandated to accept even te compromise of it being taken off their bills if they hadn’t helped shove Obamacare on us in the first place.

Eat it Cardinal pedophile protector. I dare you to shut down the catholic schools and hospitals over this. If I don’t get out of Obamacare’s compromising of my principals because of you, you don’t get to either. Take it up with god. This is America and individual liberty should take precedence over institutional liberty. It’s not on their invoices now. So stop trying to affect the individual liberty of those working for you.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:14 PM

Every state licenses health care facilities. You can’t open or run one without a license, and in most states you CAN’T CLOSE ONE WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE LICENSING BOARD (usually the state health board, though it varies from state to state).

If Cardinal George orders the Catholic hospitals in Chicago to close, the state of Illinois will order them re-opened, as they were not ‘given permission’ to close. Check the state law, it’s very clear.

A funny fire happened on the way…

By the way, Cardinal George is not alone on this. The bishops and cardinals have been saying that they will close the hospitals if forced to perform abortions since the beginning of the Obamacare debate. The contraception/abortifacient/sterilisation issue is just more fuel to the fire.

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:19 PM

The Catholic Church is not the only player in this. On 21 December 2011, Colorado Christian (NOT CATHOLIC) University sued Kathleen Sebelius over this issue. It is a Protestant university and doesn’t have a doctrinal issue with contraception.
Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:13 PM

Great, they shouldn’t have to pay for it either. But their employees should damn well have the personal liberty to purchase the insurance plan they can afford that covers the things that they want and if the institutional doesn’t get charged for the service then that’s that. Anything beyond it is just limiting individual liberty to contraception, our BEST weapon against abortions. If its not on their invoice it doesn’t matter.

By any other logic, a catholic hospital that contracts out to a private insurance company that provides contraception coverage to other groups, no matter what plans the Catholic church deems worthy, they are still contributing to it. That circular logic never ends. Because companies work as a whole and their finances aren’t conpartmentalized by organization so no matter what then, unless they self insure, they paying for it by the prevailing rhetorical talking point logic

Now of they self insure, no private companies involved, you are insured BY the catholic church. Well, you’re screwed then, they can mandate what they like and forbid contraception on their plans. If they don’t self insure, sorry sir, you’re a part of the larger free-market and if you aren’t getting billed, it doesn’t matter.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:23 PM

Eat it Cardinal pedophile protector. I dare you to shut down the catholic schools and hospitals over this. If I don’t get out of Obamacare’s compromising of my principals because of you, you don’t get to either. Take it up with god. This is America and individual liberty should take precedence over institutional liberty. It’s not on their invoices now. So stop trying to affect the individual liberty of those working for you.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:14 PM

You should be siding with anyone fighting the democrats over any portion of ObamaCare instead of stomping your feet.

darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:24 PM

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:14 PM

I understand your point, Bommer_Sooner. They made their bed and now they find it infested with bedbugs and perhaps we are foolish to help them just kill their own bedbugs when the rest of us have been infested as well, largely because of the unintended consequences of the religious organizations’ own behavior.

I agree with you to an extent and while I am not opposed in principal in “letting Rome burn” so to speak and suffer the sling and arrows of their own folly, I fear the further precedent that might be set. I’ve already admitted to schadenfreude as the religious organizations squirm experiencing the same type of constitutional encroachments they call for against others. However, I also believe there is a right and wrong. It is wrong for the gov’t to violate the 1st in this manner. I will oppose the gov’t in this. This is not hypocrisy on my part, it is merely disagreement with you as to action although we agree on underlying principle.

deepdiver on February 27, 2012 at 3:26 PM

Great, they shouldn’t have to pay for it either. But their employees should damn well have the personal liberty to purchase the insurance plan they can afford that covers the things that they want and if the institutional doesn’t get charged for the service then that’s that. Anything beyond it is just limiting individual liberty to contraception, our BEST weapon against abortions. If its not on their invoice it doesn’t matter.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:23 PM

What are you talking about? If insurance doesn’t pay for contraception individual liberty is limited?

darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:27 PM

If people … want to work for an employer willing to give them contraception at no expense…

We all know there is no such employer. You pay for it when you pay your insurance. Not only that, you pay more. To cover $20/month in birth control costs, insurance companies will need to take in $25 a month.

Using “insurance” as a payment plan to cover known costs is a pure and simple waste of money. This drives up costs for everyone.

taznar on February 27, 2012 at 3:27 PM

You should be siding with anyone fighting the democrats over any portion of ObamaCare instead of stomping your feet.
darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:24 PM

I will not. Because I’m not short-sighted and my attention span is long enough to remember and recognize that the second THEIR moral quandary is solved and they’ve flexed a little political muscle, it’ll be right back to effing us again with their social justice bs that got them into this hot water in the first place. So no. They don’t deserve it.

What are you talking about? If insurance doesn’t pay for contraception individual liberty is limited?
darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:27 PM

Yes, the individual liberty of an American to be able to purchase any plan that they can afford that covers legal medicines and procedures. Not everyone who works at a catholic hospital is catholic. They’re professionals. People should have the individual liberty to purchase the plan they desire and can afford and if the constroversial services aren’t being billed to the religious institution who runs an open economy business, then continuing to fight against it and play politics is just an attempt to limit women’s access and liberty to be covered for whatever they can afford that is legal.

So yes, if individuals working for a catholic institution are forced to choose from only plans that don’t allow contraception, and the insurance is being contracted out to a private insurance company, and the church isn’t being invoiced for the services, yes, their individual liberty to purchase whatever plan they can afford and is legal is being compromised.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:35 PM

Steve White on February 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM

How exactly does any state force any business to stay open? If I were running a business and I was ordered to stay open I would sever all ties to said business and resign any position of authority in said business. And in the case of a Catholic hospital if everyone in management did that, what then? What state authority forces people against their will to keep that hospital open?

If there were ever an unenforceable law, that would be one.

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 3:42 PM

You should be siding with anyone fighting the democrats over any portion of ObamaCare instead of stomping your feet.
darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:24 PM

That’s exactly how they get away with this stuff. It’s Obamacare for thee but not for me. And maybe next time they’ll think twice before putting stuff like this on everyone else if we don’t come screaming to their defense so it won’t have to adversely affect them, only us.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:44 PM

That’s exactly how they get away with this stuff. It’s Obamacare for thee but not for me. And maybe next time they’ll think twice before putting stuff like this on everyone else if we don’t come screaming to their defense so it won’t have to adversely affect them, only us.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:44 PM

I’ll take anything to use as a legitimate club against ObamaCare.

You won’t.

darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:49 PM

How exactly does any state force any business to stay open? If I were running a business and I was ordered to stay open I would sever all ties to said business and resign any position of authority in said business. And in the case of a Catholic hospital if everyone in management did that, what then? What state authority forces people against their will to keep that hospital open?

If there were ever an unenforceable law, that would be one.

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 3:42 PM

Methinks Steve should read the Thirteenth Amendment.

Of course, Democrats always did favour slavery. Eisenhower had to send Federal troops to force Democrats to integrate schools. Obama would probably send in Federal troops to keep Catholic hospitals open and force them to provide contraception, abortifacients, sterilisations, abortions, and cold closets in which survivors of botched abortions can spend their dying minutes alone.

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:50 PM

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:35 PM

Why can’t these women go to the health department to get their contraception? They use a sliding scale based on your ability to pay. Why make religious institutions who are fundamentally against it provide it?

dmn1972 on February 27, 2012 at 3:53 PM

When you lay down with dogs, your bound to get fleas.
The church had blind faith and they are learning the dance of the devil.

mmcnamer1 on February 27, 2012 at 3:53 PM

Actually. . .
Dictator Obama is sounding a bit like what the Muslims do to non muslims in Arab countries. . . . . . . .
IF you are a Christian or Jew (and they did not kill you yet) you have to PAY a FEE to the Muslims for them letting you live in their world. They like to call it a TAX or “Dhimmitude” . Much like the Catholics will have to PAY OBAMAs Gov’t for NOT providing the KILLING OF BABIES and birth control.
Basically, a FEE /TAX for living in Obamas world and not believing what he wants us to believe and bowing down to his will.
OBAMAS GOV’T is going to force Catholics to provide DEATH or force them to PAY a penalty.
HE KNOWS that we will not bow to this demand, thus the FEE will be imposed and it will destroy our institutions.
hmmmmm. . . Something Stalin would be proud.

.

moski on February 27, 2012 at 3:53 PM

Resist We Much on February 27, 2012 at 3:50 PM

Probably, but they would no longer be Catholic run organizations at that point. Forget the numerous legal issues of unilateral confiscation of property.

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 3:56 PM

If 98% currently use contraceptives, and contraceptives are cheap, what is the urgent necessity of this? Where is the problem to be solved?

Some of us appear to rabidly hate the Catholic Church, I suppose to them that’s a problem.

The rationale supporting the mandate appears to be either profoundly stupid or utterly dishonest. Or both.

The error is accepting the premise – that Ø-care is legal and will survive to take effect. I don’t accept the premise.

If Ø-care survives, it becomes the new baseline (what’s the legal term?), the premise for a new reality. In which the govt. can make anybody do, or pay for, anything. Goodbye, America.

Meanwhile, it is a convenient political distraction for the left.

jodetoad on February 27, 2012 at 3:58 PM

Evil talks about tolerance only when it’s weak. When it gains the upper hand, its vanity always requires the destruction of the good and the innocent, because the example of good and innocent lives is an ongoing witness against it. So it always has been. So it always will be. And America has no special immunity to becoming an enemy of its own founding beliefs about human freedom, human dignity, the limited power of the state, and the sovereignty of God.

-Archbishop Chaput of Denver

http://archphila.org/archbishop-chaput/statements/threadforweavingjoyl.htm

theCork on February 27, 2012 at 3:59 PM

Right, but the pap smears, check-ups, and resulting tests women go through to maintain their prescriptions are not.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

Why are you assuming that they are not covered? Sounds like just the prescription… $4 for generic/month, is what is causing the problem.

dominigan on February 27, 2012 at 3:59 PM

I’ll take anything to use as a legitimate club against ObamaCare.
You won’t.
darwin on February 27, 2012 at 3:49 PM

But this isn’t about Obamacare. I’ve yet to hear one of the clergy frame this contraception argument as an argument against Obamacare, just against themselves having to be subjected to it.

It’s off their invoices. The guy making this claim kept a child molester in his job and around children against information and recommendations made to him by his superiors. They aren’t gonna close their hospitals cause the backlash would be horrific outside of the conservative religious community.

You only THINK you’re fighting Obamacare, but all the actual work is being done by folks who just want an exemption and for their employees to not be able to purchase coverage a legal product(our best weapon against abortion currently, prevention)that they aren’t bring billed for anyway now. It’s political.

And it will change nothing about the situation the Catholic Church’s support for Obamacare has put you or I in. They couldn’t care less about Obamacare.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:59 PM

you know, the only ones they think directly benefit them.

deepdiver on February 27, 2012 at 2:09 PM

The RCC should be getting involved ONLY in those issue that directly affect them – otherwise they run the risk of violating their identity as a religious organization – you know – how they’re not supposed to directly take part in politics?

Those of you who think that the Catholic hospitals could close and withhold services, facilities and help to force Obama to back down: that won’t happen, and here is why.

Obama will use force to re-open the hospitals.

He will use provisions within the new law to order the Catholic hospitals to re-open. He’ll order their licenses transferred to new owners.

What? Yes.

Every state licenses health care facilities. You can’t open or run one without a license, and in most states you CAN’T CLOSE ONE WITHOUT THE PERMISSION OF THE LICENSING BOARD (usually the state health board, though it varies from state to state).

Steve White on February 27, 2012 at 2:42 PM

I could see that happening – BO would have no problem spinning how “he had to reopen the Catholic hospitals due to health emergency” Whether or not the church ever got reimbursed for their physical plant would be decades down the road. Isn’t BO training some corps of hospitalists – probably taking them off the unemployment lines.

katiejane on February 27, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Del Dolemonte on February 27, 2012 at 2:25 PM

That’s friggen hilarious.

NotCoach on February 27, 2012 at 2:30 PM

Almost as hilarious as all the NASCAR races scheduled for this year at such Redneck places as Sonoma CA and Chicago IL.

In fact the NASCAR Sprint Race in O’bama’s “home town” is within one week of the NASCAR race here in NH (which voted for O’bama in 2008).

Del Dolemonte on February 27, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Say what you like about the Church, but don’t doubt their intent to stand firm on this. While the Church does teach that access to health care for everyone is one of the tenets of a just society, Church doctrine will not allow the Bishops to extend that to contraception and/or abortion. They will close institutions, if necessary, and have done so in the past.

For an example of what I’m talking about, look at the Church’s stance on abortion. It has not softened a whit since the teaching was laid down in the first century. There is no church in the world that has been more consistently and forcefully against abortion than the Catholic Church. They’ve been fighting this battle for centuries…they aren’t about to give it up just because Obama thinks he has a better idea.

Dee2008 on February 27, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Like I said in the past, Obama will sign an executive order protecting the religious groups, but will tear it up if re-elected. He won’t have to run for President after that.

djaymick on February 27, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Isn’t BO training some corps of hospitalists – probably taking them off the unemployment lines.

katiejane on February 27, 2012 at 4:02 PM

Would YOU want to go to that hospital? The logistics of taking over the Catholic hospitals is pretty mind-boggling. I read somewhere that they represent roughly a third of all hospitals in this country.

And what about the universities? Is Obama going to take over running Notre Dame, Fordham, Boston College, Georgetown University, Loyola, Villanova, Xavier, just to name a few, all while simultaneously taking over and staffing all the Catholic hospitals? I don’t think it would be possible, even if he COULD seize the land and buildings.

Dee2008 on February 27, 2012 at 4:35 PM

Almost as hilarious as all the NASCAR races scheduled for this year at such Redneck places as Sonoma CA and Chicago IL.

In fact the NASCAR Sprint Race in O’bama’s “home town” is within one week of the NASCAR race here in NH (which voted for O’bama in 2008).

Del Dolemonte on February 27, 2012 at 4:23 PM

Who’s the bitter clinger NOW?

LOL

Roy Rogers on February 27, 2012 at 4:36 PM

There will be a gigantic public backlash against the Bishops if they choose to close hospitals and schools over this. Besides, this is a slam dunk legal case and I think Bishop George knows this. He is just keeping the flock riled up.

rockmom on February 27, 2012 at 4:37 PM

Tough nuggins Catholic Bishops. You and the church hierarchy supported Obamacare, the Catholic bishops could care less if the rest of us are enslaved as long as they don’t have to fund condoms and can keep bouncing twelve year old boys on their laps. They got what they deserve, now swallow it – Obamacare, not the boy.

Smedley on February 27, 2012 at 4:37 PM

The catholic church has NO problem with YOU being mandated to purchase a private product in your own lives no matter your principals or scruples. And they still won’t once you’ve gotten done defending their “rights” to not be subjected to the same treatment as you, the commoners.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 4:39 PM

Right, but the pap smears, check-ups, and resulting tests women go through to maintain their prescriptions are not.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 2:12 PM

You don’t have to get constant check-ups to get the pill re-prescribed to you if you want it. Pap smears are once every year or two and even then if you are late for one they will still write a script for birth control. Believe me.

And just in case you have a different experience, here you go:

24 Durex Condoms Variety Pack! Collection of the the Best Durex Condom Styles by Durex
Buy $6.73

You can go at it every day you aren’t on your cycle. Under $7.00 Congrats.

BakerAllie on February 27, 2012 at 4:42 PM

So yes, if individuals working for a catholic institution are forced to choose from only plans that don’t allow contraception, and the insurance is being contracted out to a private insurance company, and the church isn’t being invoiced for the services, yes, their individual liberty to purchase whatever plan they can afford and is legal is being compromised.

Boomer_Sooner on February 27, 2012 at 3:35 PM

I did not know that the Catholic institutions were forcing people to work for them.

If you want Catholics to choke on this mandate because you are mad at their voting record, you are helping the government overreach as much as the next person.

BakerAllie on February 27, 2012 at 4:47 PM

If you want Catholics to choke on this mandate because you are mad at their voting record,

That would be pretty silly wouldn’t it? To be mad at all Catholics because SOME are liberals? That kind of all or nothing thinking is unproductive. How much better it would be to encourage conservative Catholics by joining them in this fight. Unless you aren’t a conservative yourself????

Dee2008 on February 27, 2012 at 4:51 PM

I have not read all the above comments – but how about catholic schools? I assume when we talk about catholic institutions, catholic schools are included. The number of catholic schools is huge.

AndAero on February 27, 2012 at 4:51 PM

Say what you like about the Church, but don’t doubt their intent to stand firm on this. While the Church does teach that access to health care for everyone is one of the tenets of a just society, Church doctrine will not allow the Bishops to extend that to contraception and/or abortion. They will close institutions, if necessary, and have done so in the past.
Dee2008 on February 27, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Serious question: what does the Church do in the states (I think there are 8) that require health insurance to include coverage for contraception and sterilization?

cam2 on February 27, 2012 at 4:53 PM

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