What I’d love to see at tonight’s debate: Ashes

posted at 2:45 pm on February 22, 2012 by Tina Korbe

It is Ash Wednesday, after all, and, if Joe Biden is willing to sport soot in public, then surely Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum will be, too.

Why do I want to see smudged crosses on their foreheads? It’s not because I want more folks to accuse Santorum of running to be “theologian in chief” or to question the sincerity of Newt Gingrich’s conversion, as thoughtful as those accusations and questions generally are (not). It’s also not so I have to field questions from areligious friends who think Christian (and specifically Catholic) customs like this one are odd, fun as that is (not). Nope — it’s because the ashes Catholics and some Protestants receive on their foreheads on Ash Wednesday are a symbol of something it’s always good to remember: “We are dust and to dust we shall return.” That puts everything in perspective, doesn’t it?

‘Course, Christians agree with Henry W. Longfellow when he wrote, “‘Dust thou art to dust returnest’ was not spoken of the soul.” That invests everything with meaning — but it also subordinates temporal matters (like politics!) to eternal ones.

But even non-Christians can benefit from remembering the one inevitability of life. “It is the first part of intelligence to recognize our precarious estate in life and the first part of courage to be not at all abashed before the fact,” as Robert Louis Stevenson put it. Time is running out on all of us: Why not be bold in the solutions we pursue to whatever problems we face?

If Gingrich and Santorum are ashless, though, I won’t question their dedication to their faith: Contrary to popular perception, today is not a holy day of obligation in the Catholic Church.

Update I: Ed said a contact at the Santorum campaign says he has no idea whether Santorum will wear ashes this evening and Guy Benson says Newt Gingrich has confirmed that he won’t be attending Mass today and, so, won’t be wearing ashes tonight.

Update II: According to Rick Klein via Guy Benson, Santorum is campaigning in Arizona with ashes on his head, so it’s probable he’ll still have ‘em this evening.


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5

Here’s a thought. Learn to laugh and then you’ll have a shot at distinguishing between humor and malice.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:12

I’m a funny guy. I just don’t think religious bigotry is funny. And I certainly don’t like progressive double standards.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:15 PM

I can’t count how many times on a thread about gay lifestyle issues the most innocent observations seem to justify any and all verbal assaults on social conservatives commenting on the thread.

I guess I’m confused here. Is it no holds barred or are we trying to maintain some civility? Or am I just stupid and cowed into a behavior no one else expects of themselves.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:08 PM

Not taking the bait tonight hawk.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:16 PM

Not taking the bait tonight hawk.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:16 PM

You shouldn’t. I’m defending “your” faith and actually not talking to you. Not even referring to you.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:17 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:13 PM

I luv ya-but I grew up Jewish while you didn’t. Typical JEWISH humor.
I don’t find MJ’s remark to be any big deal.
We’ll have to disagree on this.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:18 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Ahhh!

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:19 PM

Here’s a thought. Learn to laugh and then you’ll have a shot at distinguishing between humor and malice.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:12 PM

Some folks struggle with separating their internet personality from their ego.

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 6:20 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:18 PM

I don’t understand what you’re trying to tell me. Are you saying because MJ grew up Jewish, I should be okay with him/her mocking a Catholic sacrament? And that it’s inappropriate for me to comment on her ridiculing Catholics because I didn’t grow up Jewish?

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:22 PM

Here’s a thought. Learn to laugh and then you’ll have a shot at distinguishing between humor and malice.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:12 PM

If I were to repeat my dad’s favorite Shoah joke here-I’d get banned.
He delight in sharing it with those who didn’t realize that despite ‘passing’-He was ALL Jewish.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:24 PM

I don’t understand what you’re trying to tell me. Are you saying because MJ grew up Jewish, I should be okay with him/her mocking a Catholic sacrament? And that it’s inappropriate for me to comment on her ridiculing Catholics because I didn’t grow up Jewish?

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:22 PM

Oh, lighten up already! Cripes!

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:25 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:22 PM

Egads, “mocking a Catholic sacrament.” What a drama queen.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:25 PM

Sincerely curious, where in the Bible are we instructed to put ashes on our foreheads in March?

No lectures. Just book, chapter and verse. Thanks.

stenwin77 on February 22, 2012 at 6:26 PM

Oh, lighten up already! Cripes!

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:25 PM

Thanks for the advice.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:27 PM

bntafraid on February 22, 2012 at 5:27 PM

You mean the subheading, “It symbolizes something we all have in common”? Can you and I can agree that “It” is the presence of ashes on one’s forehead after participating in a Catholic sacramental ritual also maintained by some protestant sects?

While part of the ritual does mention the Genesis aphorism about one returning to the dust from which one was created (ignoring that the aphorism itself assumes that “we” believe “we” were created by God), that aphorism comprises neither the whole of the ritual nor its symbolism. For example, the symbol of the cross and the ritual’s textual admonition to have faith in the Gospel, indicates that the ashes symbolize a faith in Jesus Christ, and not just any faith, but Catholic or Catholic influenced faith in Christ requiring, or at least reverencing, such rituals or sacraments for salvation. Those included in Tina’s “we” aren’t the whole human race: “we” doesn’t just exclude her “areligious friends” she mentions, the ritual isn’t sacred to many protestant Christians either, only those who maintain some form of the Catholic sacraments. I respect the right to so worship and admire many for whom such rituals have significance, but Ash Wednesday is not something we, those who find such sacred and I, have in common. So, for the balance of her subheading to be true, “we” excludes me among many.

As I mentioned, the exclusion fairly relieves me such that I can read her posts, now, without anxiety arising from her using some form of the first person plural with regard to applauding people who film themselves calling janitors at abortion clinics murderers. Now I know she doesn’t mean me when she implies we should admire such.

Jens on February 22, 2012 at 6:27 PM

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:25 PM

You would think I burned his Koran the way he’s carrying on.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:28 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:22 PM

I’m now Catholic-and I wasn’t even remotely offended because since I grew up Jewish I was used to the humor. My son has some American Indian blood-and if he reads MJ’s comments-he might roll his eyes-but he won’t be offend.
I tell Jesus jokes sometimes-nothing bad-and I’d like like to think that my savior is laughing with me.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:29 PM

Egads, “mocking a Catholic sacrament.” What a drama queen.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:25 PM

I really don’t think trying to get you to extend the same civility you comment to others about is being a drama queen. You cannot manage these exchanges without resorting to this name calling though. I don’t understand why.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:29 PM

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:25 PM

If we have to start walking on eggshells ’round here HA’s gonna become VERY dull.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:30 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:29 PM

Okay, that’s you. Because you didn’t take offense doesn’t mean it’s any less disrespectful.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:30 PM

You would think I burned his Koran the way he’s carrying on.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:29 PM

I’m starting to get the feeling that folks around here have never played Indian poker? Show of hands, who hasn’t ever played it?

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

Here’s a thought. Learn to laugh and then you’ll have a shot at distinguishing between humor and malice.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:12 PM

Sorry MJ, too much to ask for from a few chip-shouldered hypocrites around here.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

Sincerely curious, where in the Bible are we instructed to put ashes on our foreheads in March?

No lectures. Just book, chapter and verse. Thanks.

stenwin77 on February 22, 2012 at 6:26 PM

Tradition. Did you really not know that?

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:30 PM

Please ready my above comment.
Seriously-you’ve said your piece.
Let it go

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Not so… it was the Jews who gave us the Old Testament, and the Apostles who wrote the New Testament which was guarded by the early Christians in Anioch… read the Book of Acts, and Paul’s Epistles. 2 Tim. 3:15 All scripture comes frm the Holy Spirit not the RCC

Shain1611 on February 22, 2012 at 5:06 PM

You should probably learn how the canon of the New Testament was put together. Because it wasn’t that simple. It took perhaps 120 years for all of the constituent books to be written and took even longer for entire canon to be put together. The gospels, Acts and the various epistles circulated separately for many years and there were tremendous disputes about which books were in and which were out. It wasn’t until 367-about 330+ years after Jesus’ death–that we know for sure that the list of books we know was put together in one place. And, no, the Gospels almost certainly were not written by the Apostles whose names they bear. Maybe start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

It’s a dangerous road for you, though. That path lead me to reject Protestantism completely and become Catholic.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

I’ve never played it-but so what.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

So here’s how it’s played: each player puts in an ante (usually one dollar) to play. Using one deck of cards, the dealer deals a card, face down, to each player around the table. The players then place the cards on their foreheads with one hand, so all players except themselves can see what they’re playing with. The card stays held there until the end of the round. If a player looks at their own card, they’re out of the round, and lose their ante.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Sincerely curious, where in the Bible are we instructed to put ashes on our foreheads in March?

No lectures. Just book, chapter and verse. Thanks.

stenwin77 on February 22, 2012 at 6:26 PM

Where in the Bible does it say which books are in the Bible?

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Jesus saves!
The rest of the party takes 4d6 unholy damage.

Jeddite on February 22, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Sincerely curious, where in the Bible are we instructed to put ashes on our foreheads in March?

No lectures. Just book, chapter and verse. Thanks.

stenwin77 on February 22, 2012 at 6:26 PM

Tradition. Did you really not know that?

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

Although, while the Bible isn’t specific about the means of remembrance,

Remember that thou art dust, and to dust thou shalt return.
—Genesis 3:19

Is that what you were looking for?

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 6:35 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Only that those who haven’t may not have gotten the joke :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:35 PM

Please ready my above comment.
Seriously-you’ve said your piece.
Let it go

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Sorry. No.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:35 PM

I’m starting to get the feeling that folks around here have never played Indian poker? Show of hands, who hasn’t ever played it?

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:31 PM

Maybe they used super glue and found it not much fun?

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM

Jeddite on February 22, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Oh good. A new pal for HD to play with :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM

Where in the Bible does it say which books are in the Bible?

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:34 PM

At the beginning of mine there is a very helpful Table of Contents.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM

I’m now Catholic-and I wasn’t even remotely offended because since I grew up Jewish I was used to the humor. My son has some American Indian blood-and if he reads MJ’s comments-he might roll his eyes-but he won’t be offend.
I tell Jesus jokes sometimes-nothing bad-and I’d like like to think that my savior is laughing with me.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:29 PM

That’s what I’m talking about. And you have to know already that an attitude such as yours, in contrast to those-who-will-be-offended, is much more attractive to an outsider.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:37 PM

You should probably learn how the canon of the New Testament was put together. Because it wasn’t that simple. It took perhaps 120 years for all of the constituent books to be written and took even longer for entire canon to be put together. The gospels, Acts and the various epistles circulated separately for many years and there were tremendous disputes about which books were in and which were out. It wasn’t until 367-about 330+ years after Jesus’ death–that we know for sure that the list of books we know was put together in one place. And, no, the Gospels almost certainly were not written by the Apostles whose names they bear. Maybe start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

It’s a dangerous road for you, though. That path lead me to reject Protestantism completely and become Catholic.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Thanks…I meant to answer that one but you did it a lot better than I would have.

In the same regards, I was brought up Catholic, and the more I read and heard, I always would think that if I were brought up Protestant, I would have converted to the RCC.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:37 PM

Jesus saves!
The rest of the party takes 4d6 unholy damage.

Jeddite on February 22, 2012 at 6:34 PM

Hahaha, as a gamer geek I like this one.

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 6:39 PM

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:37 PM

When you’re autistic, and grow up Jewish AND conservative in Calypso Louie’s neighborhood(I graduated from HS w/ one of his sons)you grow thick skin.
It takes a LOT to offend me.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:41 PM

It’s a dangerous road for you, though. That path lead me to reject Protestantism completely and become Catholic.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Full disclosure, it’s even more dangerous than you might realize – that path lead me to reject Christianity completely.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM

Oh good. A new pal for HD to play with :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM

I expect Mr. Hawkdriver could role-play a particularly convincing paladin or cleric, were he into that sort of revelry.

Jeddite on February 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM

Jewish to Protestant to Catholic in my case.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:43 PM

Oh good. A new pal for HD to play with :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:36 PM

I’m succumbing to the dogpile. No, really. I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to comment again. No, really.

MJ, it’s about a recent exchange and nothing more. We talked about respecting positions and respecting people beliefs. I’ll just note that I didn’t extent any insults to you here. I stated by asking if you thought your comments about that practice was being civil. I’ve learned something.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Jeddite on February 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM

Hawk’s normally very level-and always a great guy.
Dunno what’s up today.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

It’s a dangerous road for you, though. That path lead me to reject Protestantism completely and become Catholic.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:32 PM

Full disclosure, it’s even more dangerous than you might realize – that path lead me to reject Christianity completely.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM

Well, if we’re playing anecdotal evidence, I can list a whole bunch of people who read the Bible and decided the Catholic church was wrong.

I think it was called the Protestant Reformation……

tom on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

It takes a LOT to offend me.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:41 PM

I’m not a believer, but my wife is rather devout. I attend church with her often, and almost all of my closest friends are Christians. They have an amazing capacity to celebrate a deep faith which I don’t share with them, and a lighthearted sense of humor that we all share regarding the myriad funny quirks of a very old tradition.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:44 PM

LPL! I’m sure that bit about being a bigot was meant as a compliment.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:46 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:44 PM

LPL! I’m sure that bit about being a bigot was meant as a compliment.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Was that the first comment?

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:48 PM

LPL! I’m sure that bit about being a bigot was meant as a compliment.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Yeah, but yer not a bigot/bigot.

lol

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 6:49 PM

Jeddite on February 22, 2012 at 6:42 PM

Hawk’s normally very level-and always a great guy.
Dunno what’s up today.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

I’m not today?

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:49 PM

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

I agree. I can’t say I know what this little jihad is about. It was pretty gentle humor.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:50 PM

Well, if we’re playing anecdotal evidence, I can list a whole bunch of people who read the Bible and decided the Catholic church was wrong.

I think it was called the Protestant Reformation……

tom on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

Yes, but we’re not talking about reading the Bible – were talking about reading ABOUT the Bible, and how it came to be what it is. Very few Christians have the interest or courage to go down that rabbit hole. Seems to me that once they do, their faith tends to be greatly strengthened or transformed into something else, even lost – but rarely is there perspective left unchanged.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:52 PM

I agree. I can’t say I know what this little jihad is about. It was pretty gentle humor.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:50 PM

MJ, that wasn’t your only comment about faith in this thread. You can’t help but ridicule what people believe. Like I said, I’ve been educated here tonight. Regardless of any platitudes about showing respect, you can’t change your tenor.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:54 PM

Thanks…I meant to answer that one but you did it a lot better than I would have.

In the same regards, I was brought up Catholic, and the more I read and heard, I always would think that if I were brought up Protestant, I would have converted to the RCC.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 6:37 PM

It is, after all, the Church founded at Pentecost.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM

I’m not today?

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:49 PM

I came in late to this thread.
I have no idea what did/didn’t transpire prior to my first comment.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:58 PM

I came in late to this thread.
I have no idea what did/didn’t transpire prior to my first comment.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 22, 2012 at 6:58 PM

Yep.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:01 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 6:54 PM

Oh you got me there. My prior comment was about how I’m in heaven every day of my life and how foolish it is to waste time wishing for more. Yeah, that was so mean and anti gawd stuff and all. Dude, if respect means grim silence any time the topic raised then screw it. This heaven of mine is too short to suffer through at parade rest every time someone quotes their holy bible.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:02 PM

I agree. I can’t say I know what this little jihad is about. It was pretty gentle humor.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 6:50 PM

A visit from Aunt Flow perhaps? ;-)

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 7:02 PM

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 7:02 PM

True story. When I was Bar Mitvah’ed I had a special portion of the Torah to read from. My b’day is April 23. That’s the day we read about how women must be quarantined in a special shack when their monthly visitor stops by :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:04 PM

It is, after all, the Church founded at Pentecost.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM

Yeah, Catholics are the only TRUE Christians, right?

Not so fast (just a quick google, no authority claimed):

One Catholic apologist pointed out the following…

Acts 9:31 (Greek)
ἡ μεν ουν εκκλησια καθ᾽ὁλης της ιουδαιας και γαλιλαιας και σαμαρειας ειχεν ειρηνην οικοδομουμενη και πορευομενη τω φοβω του κυριου, και τη παρακλησει του ἁγιου πνευματος επληθυνοντο.

Act 9:31 (Transliteration)
aye men oon ekklaysiaye kath olays tays ioodayeas kaye galilayeas kaye samarayas aycon ayraynayn oikodomoomenaye kaye poryoomenaye tow fobow too kurioo kaye tay paraklaysay too agioo pnyoomatos eplaythunonto (http://www.russ.org/gtb/luke.html#a9)

Acts 9:31
So the Church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

From this text, we can see the Greek word “kath olays” which is rendered “Catholic” in modern English and the word “ekklaysiaye” which becomes “ecclesia” in English and is commonly translated as “church”.

εκκλησια καθ᾽ ὁλης = ekklaysiaye kath olays = “the church throughout all” = the catholic church in the greater sense of the church of Christ and not the Church of Rome.

So, yes, the “catholic church in the greater sense of the church of Christ” was created at Pentecost (according to Acts, if that’s good enough for you).

peski on February 22, 2012 at 7:04 PM

It is, after all, the Church founded at Pentecost.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 6:55 PM

A lot of Protestants will say different, but you’re exactly right there.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:06 PM

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:02 PM

Well no. You called people who believe, fools. Instead of characterizing, paste the comment.

Quite right. So why waste a moment of one’s life to feather a nonexistent after-nest? To those who don’t know it, this is heaven and it’s a fool who doesn’t try to make the best and the most of it!

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 5:37 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Yeah, Catholics are the only TRUE Christians, right?

The Catholic Church is the one, holy, apostolic church, founded by Christ when He appointed Peter the head of His Church. Us Catholics consider most Protestants our “brothers and sisters in Christ”. We believe there is salvation outside The Catholic Church.

But ask any Protestant “Who founded your church?” and it’s always a mortal human. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:10 PM

Oh you got me there. My prior comment was about how I’m in heaven every day of my life and how foolish it is to waste time wishing for more. Yeah, that was so mean and anti gawd stuff and all. Dude, if respect means grim silence any time the topic raised then screw it. This heaven of mine is too short to suffer through at parade rest every time someone quotes their holy bible.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:02 PM

to be fair, your first comment was:

We are dust and to dust we shall return.

Quite right. So why waste a moment of one’s life to feather a nonexistent after-nest? To those who don’t know it, this is heaven and it’s a fool who doesn’t try to make the best and the most of it!

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 5:37 PMit did come across a bit

I read that last part as more of a carpe-diem remark, but it could also have come across as an attack on people who believe there’s something more to live for.

I don’t know if this is Hawkdriver’s objection or not, but I can see how if you read it a certain way, it’s a bit nasty.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:12 PM

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:04 PM

hahaha…..perhaps he/she should find a shack? ;-)

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 7:14 PM

Just leaving this here…a good and short vid on “Why am I Catholic” HERE

Cheers all, God Bless. Even you Hawk.

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:15 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Ah yes, so if I had only said, “it is foolish” to look forward to death instead of saying, “only fools” do, you would find it all copacetic.

BTW, if you’re looking for more feminine hygiene tips I can point you to my Torah reading. It’s full of pearls of wisdom like the one I cited.

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:15 PM

MJ, I have work to finish. No biggie. Like I said, I should have known better. We’re no more ahead or further behind then we were before in understanding. I’ll always try to curb my comments in order to not offend by name-calling or ridiculing folks religious beliefs. You do what you need to do and I hope we can manage something to agree on again.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:16 PM

I mean that there is an unbroken succession from the Apostles and teachings imparted to them by Jesus to the Catholic Church today through, among other things, the Apostolic success of the bishops. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_succession

(And no, Catholics do not think that they are the only Christians. Read Ut Unum Sint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ut_Unum_Sint) or the relevant parts or the Catechism.)

One of the problems with the Protestant approach is that Christianity is not Islam. Jesus did not dictate a book. He lived and taught and passed on his teachings to the Apostles (we call this Tradition). The Bible, while inspired by the Holy Spirit, is only part of it. Many of the traditions come to us from a time before there was even a bible as we know it. A Bible-alone approach denies people the fullness of the teachings of Jesus.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 7:17 PM

Apostolic succession

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 7:17 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:16 PM

No worries here. You’re not a bad dude. I think you just flew off the handle a bit today. FWIW, it’s all good clean fun to me :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:18 PM

I don’t know if this is Hawkdriver’s objection or not, but I can see how if you read it a certain way, it’s a bit nasty.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Well no. You called people who believe, fools.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Maybe I should just let people speak for themselves while I concentrate a bit more on honing and refining my “Refresh” browsing skills.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:20 PM

No worries here. You’re not a bad dude. I think you just flew off the handle a bit today. FWIW, it’s all good clean fun to me :-)

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 7:18 PM

I didn’t fly off anything. I wasn’t mad about anything the entire exchange. If anything, I’d say my comments were the more reserved.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:20 PM

this is heaven and it’s a fool who doesn’t try to make the best and the most of it!

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 5:37 PM

I am a believer and I make the best and most of my time here. I took no offense. I guess those who purposely try to live a horrid existence as a condition of believing might take offense. But then they’re clearly determined to be miserable…so who cares.

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 7:21 PM

I don’t know if this is Hawkdriver’s objection or not, but I can see how if you read it a certain way, it’s a bit nasty.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Well no. You called people who believe, fools.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Maybe I should just let people speak for themselves while I concentrate a bit more on honing and refining my “Refresh” browsing skills.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:20 PM

No sweat.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:22 PM

Don’t call me a blog commenter… I am a motivational speaker

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Obama had them on.

Nobody noticed.

*cheap [rim]shot*

profitsbeard on February 22, 2012 at 7:30 PM

A spot of ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday may be a nice gesture, but are you born again like Jesus said that you must be in John 3?

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Let the games begin !!!…..but don’t lose your head over it..

FlaMurph on February 22, 2012 at 4:04 PM

The questions serious and LEGIT… peace

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:32 PM

Don’t call me a blog commenter… I am a motivational speaker

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Hmmm, OK, fair enough, but what I really want to know is, why should I vote for you instead of the other guy?

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:33 PM

A spot of ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday may be a nice gesture, but are you born again like Jesus said that you must be in John 3?

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Isn’t there a line somewhere about Judge not, lest ye be judged? I always took that to mean worry about your own self and your own life, and let God worry about who’s on the naughty list and who’s on the nice list. That judgement is above your pay grade.

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 4:07 PM

I don’t bet but if I did I’d say you’e NOT born again like Jesus said you must be to see heaven… typical unsaved person response

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:34 PM

Well no. You called people who believe, fools. Instead of characterizing, paste the comment.

Quite right. So why waste a moment of one’s life to feather a nonexistent after-nest? To those who don’t know it, this is heaven and it’s a fool who doesn’t try to make the best and the most of it!

MJBrutus on February 22, 2012 at 5:37 PM

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:06 PM

If I had a dollar for every time someone on this site called me a fool, or much worse, because I DON’T believe the same thing them, I’d go buy myself a nice bottle of Scotch.

And to top it of, no, he didn’t call people who believe fools:

it’s a fool who doesn’t try to make the best and the most of it!

Sure you might infer that he intended your meaning, but holy crap, you are a thin-skinned grouch.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 7:35 PM

A spot of ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday may be a nice gesture, but are you born again like Jesus said that you must be in John 3?

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Baptism is being born again.

‘nite

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:37 PM

Don’t call me a blog commenter… I am a motivational speaker

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Hmmm, OK, fair enough, but what I really want to know is, why should I vote for you instead of the other guy?

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 7:33 PM

Vote for me because unless your name is Jesus Christ… I am NOT scared of you

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:45 PM

it’s always good to remember: “We are dust and to dust we shall return.”

Uh, ok.

EddieC on February 22, 2012 at 7:50 PM

A spot of ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday may be a nice gesture, but are you born again like Jesus said that you must be in John 3?

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Ash Wednesday is the day we start our repentance and become “born again” in Christ.

SPCOlympics on February 22, 2012 at 4:22 PM

You are born once physically and once spiritually. You do NOT keep getting born again every year. Read John chapter 3.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:51 PM

I mean that there is an unbroken succession from the Apostles and teachings imparted to them by Jesus to the Catholic Church today through, among other things, the Apostolic success of the bishops. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_succession

(And no, Catholics do not think that they are the only Christians. Read Ut Unum Sint (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ut_Unum_Sint) or the relevant parts or the Catechism.)

One of the problems with the Protestant approach is that Christianity is not Islam. Jesus did not dictate a book. He lived and taught and passed on his teachings to the Apostles (we call this Tradition). The Bible, while inspired by the Holy Spirit, is only part of it. Many of the traditions come to us from a time before there was even a bible as we know it. A Bible-alone approach denies people the fullness of the teachings of Jesus.

NYCcon on February 22, 2012 at 7:17 PM

Yes, I’m quite aware of the spectrum of Christian belief, and the Roman Catholic claim to “apostolic succession”. The only problem is that the only authority for your succession being the “true” one is your own authority. Can you say Eastern Orthodox? Which is, of course, one of the factors that lead Protestants to elevate the Bible to a position of higher authority – to affirm an authority outside those wonderful successors of Peter such as, say, Alexander VI, just to pick one.

Personally, I can see both sides of the argument, but one thing’s for sure – Catholics claiming “The Catholic Church is the one, holy, apostolic church” is just as pretentious as some evangelical claiming that a Catholic hasn’t been “saved” based on his denomination’s criteria.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 7:55 PM

OH, PLEASE SHOW UP WITH ASHES SMUDGED ON YOUR FOREHEAD, RICK!

Please, please, please.

Because when you do, no one will say a word about it–at least not a disparaging word–but believe me, everyone will think you are a wacko religious nutcase who should not be the President of the United States.

So, please, JUST DO IT.

That way, we can actually HAVE our ashes, but they will be the ashes at the bottom of your campaign.

mountainaires on February 22, 2012 at 7:55 PM

I am a believer and I make the best and most of my time here. I took no offense. I guess those who purposely try to live a horrid existence as a condition of believing might take offense. But then they’re clearly determined to be miserable…so who cares.

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 7:21 PM

Sometimes I wish I had my own faith that I could make jokes about. Unfortunately I am limited to Einstein and Chuck Norris jokes. ;-)

csdeven on February 22, 2012 at 6:14 PM

LOL!!! Which is it.Damn, you can’t believe a single thing this troll says.

smoothsailing on February 22, 2012 at 7:58 PM

If I had a dollar for every time someone on this site called me a fool, or much worse, because I DON’T believe the same thing them, I’d go buy myself a nice bottle of Scotch.

And to top it of, no, he didn’t call people who believe fools:

it’s a fool who doesn’t try to make the best and the most of it!

That wasn’t the whole quote. (And I’m not really sure what you said. I have an idea so I’ll try to answer with what I think you were trying to say)

If you were trying to say I shouldn’t take offense to the use of fool, it was a bit more than that. Don’t try to explain away what I was talking about with a fragment of the conversation. And you’re entitled to your opinion. You’re just not allowed to have mine for me.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 7:59 PM

A spot of ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday may be a nice gesture, but are you born again like Jesus said that you must be in John 3?

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Baptism is being born again. ‘nite

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:37 PM

Wrong. You get baptised after you’re saved (born again). It is a public symbol of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you do it to show others you have given your life to the Lord.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:02 PM

Well, if we’re playing anecdotal evidence, I can list a whole bunch of people who read the Bible and decided the Catholic church was wrong.

I think it was called the Protestant Reformation……

tom on February 22, 2012 at 6:45 PM

Yes, but we’re not talking about reading the Bible – were talking about reading ABOUT the Bible, and how it came to be what it is. Very few Christians have the interest or courage to go down that rabbit hole. Seems to me that once they do, their faith tends to be greatly strengthened or transformed into something else, even lost – but rarely is there perspective left unchanged.

peski on February 22, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Oh, I know that one! Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Basic inspiration.

We sometimes underestimate those of the past. While literacy was not as high as it is today, the first century AD saw the churches spreading throughout the entire Roman Empire, including Asia Minor, India, and Europe. It also saw the Bible, including the New Testament, being translated into multiple languages — even though learned people throughout the Roman Empire spoke and wrote in Greek already. Another huge source of manuscript evidence was the writings of early church pastors and leaders, who quoted Scripture extensively. It’s been said that you could reconstruct almost the entire New Testament just from the quotations of those pastors and leaders.

So several centuries before the first Pope, the Bible text was far better established than many people think.

It’s true that there was a council that met and officially established canon in the 4th century, but the churches had been going and using Scripture for several centuries before that. The vast majority had already settled on the canon of New Testament books long before.

tom on February 22, 2012 at 8:02 PM

smoothsailing on February 22, 2012 at 7:58 PM

You’re new here. No matter how bad it gets, try to curb the profanity and name-calling, Dude. You seem like a smart kid, stick with the intelligent exchanges.

hawkdriver on February 22, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Sorry Chief.

smoothsailing on February 22, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Vote for me because unless your name is Jesus Christ… I am NOT scared of you

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:45 PM

OK that is pretty is pretty impressive, I’ll grant you that. On the other hand, no matter how scary I try to be, SMOD doesn’t seem to be frightened of me either. So I sort of feel like that issue is a bit of a wash.

What’s your Zombie policy?

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 8:04 PM

I don’t bet but if I did I’d say you’e NOT born again like Jesus said you must be to see heaven… typical unsaved person response

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:34 PM

No, I’m not a Christian as I stated a few pages back. I was raised Catholic, but I do not practice.

And I certainly don’t agree with Christian dogma as you are presenting it. That’s wonderful that you are saved, but that doesn’t give you the authority to judge me or anyone else.

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 8:10 PM

A spot of ash on your forehead on Ash Wednesday may be a nice gesture, but are you born again like Jesus said that you must be in John 3?

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 3:56 PM

Baptism is being born again. ‘nite

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:37 PM

Wrong. You get baptised after you’re saved (born again). It is a public symbol of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you do it to show others you have given your life to the Lord.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:02 PM

That may be true of Christians, but that isn’t necessarily what Catholics believe, which is what I think JetBoy was pointing out.

I’m all for discussions on differing and similar views in religious dogma, they are stimulating and interesting. But people who insist on telling other people their religious beliefs are wrong greatly annoy me.

When we all die and get sent to Hell and you are in Heaven Apocalypse, feel free to say “I told you so” then. Otherwise, can you please participate in the discussion without trying to claim religious authority?

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 8:21 PM

Vote for me because unless your name is Jesus Christ… I am NOT scared of you

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:45 PM

OK that is pretty is pretty impressive, I’ll grant you that.

RINO in Name Only on February 22, 2012 at 8:04 PM

Thank you

On the other hand, no matter how scary I try to be, SMOD doesn’t seem to be frightened of me either. So I sort of feel like that issue is a bit of a wash.

No wash… if I am King God can bless my nation and my people

What’s your Zombie policy?

Stupid zombie gathering establishment followers

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:24 PM

I don’t bet but if I did I’d say you’e NOT born again like Jesus said you must be to see heaven… typical unsaved person response

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 7:34 PM

No, I’m not a Christian as I stated a few pages back. I was raised Catholic, but I do not practice.

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 8:10 PM

I knew you weren’t a Christian and I did not see your post.

And I certainly don’t agree with Christian dogma as you are presenting it. That’s wonderful that you are saved, but that doesn’t give you the authority to judge me or anyone else.

It is not MY DOGMA and I am judging you. I’m showing you what Jesus said. You are disagreeing with Him, not me.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Baptism is being born again. ‘nite

JetBoy on February 22, 2012 at 7:37 PM

Wrong. You get baptised after you’re saved (born again). It is a public symbol of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you do it to show others you have given your life to the Lord.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:02 PM

That may be true of Christians, but that isn’t necessarily what Catholics believe, which is what I think JetBoy was pointing out.

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 8:21 PM

Instead of telling me what you think show me in the Bible where it says baptism is being born again.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:30 PM

It is not MY DOGMA and I am judging you. I’m showing you what Jesus said. You are disagreeing with Him, not me.

apocalypse on February 22, 2012 at 8:28 PM

It is your dogma as a Born Again Christian, and I don’t mean to use that term as an offensive slur, just to distinguish.

Catholics are also Christians and believe in God and Christ, yet not in your interpretation of the Bible.

cmsciulli on February 22, 2012 at 8:32 PM

So, anybody watching the debate? Did the candidates show up with ashes or not?

joe_doufu on February 22, 2012 at 8:33 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 4 5