Obama “accommodation”: Insurers must cover contraception at no cost to … anyone?; Update: “Magical thinking,” says LA Times

posted at 1:20 pm on February 10, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Today, the Obama administration hastily called a press conference to announce a change to its HHS mandate for employers to cover contraception at no cost, including religious organizations whose doctrines oppose contraception and abortifacients.  Instead of religious organizations footing the bill directly, the revised “accommodation” now says that insurers must cover the costs, which changes … nothing:

The revised Obama mandate will make religious groups contract with insurers to offer birth control and the potentially abortion-causing drugs to women at no cost. The revised mandate will have religious employers refer women to their insurance company for coverage that still violates their moral and religious beliefs. Under this plan, every insurance company will be obligated to provide coverage at no cost.

Essentially, religious groups will still be mandated to offer plans that cover both birth control and the ella abortion drug

According to Obama administration officials on a conference call this morning, a woman’s insurance company “will be required to reach out directly and offer her contraceptive care free of charge. The religious institutions will not have to pay for it.”

The birth control and abortion-causing drugs will simply be “part of the bundle of services that all insurance companies are required to offer,” White House officials said.

So these employers will still have to provide the health insurance, and the health insurance must cover the contraception and abortifacients.  The White House apparently wants t pretend that the funds for these outlays will come off of the Unobtanium Tree, where insurers find money to cover all mandates.  This exposes once again a stunning ignorance of risk pools and how costs are passed along to consumers.

Let’s just take this one step at a time.  Where do insurers get money to pay claims?  They collect premiums and co-pays from the insured group or risk pool.  No matter what the Obama administration wants to say now, the money that will cover those contraception costs will come from the religious organizations that must now by law buy that insurance and pay those premiums.  Their religious doctrines have long-standing prohibitions against participating in contraception and abortion, and nothing in this “accommodation” changes the fact that the government is now forcing them to both fund and facilitate access to products and services that offend their practice of religion.

Basically, the Obama administration told religious organizations to stop complaining and get in line.  This “accommodation” only attempts to accommodate Obama’s political standing and nothing more.

Update: The LA Times’ Jon Healy calls this new position “magical thinking”:

Here’s where the magical thinking comes in. The following is from the fact sheet the White House released Friday:

Covering contraception saves money for insurance companies by keeping women healthy and preventing spending on other health services. For example, there was no increase in premiums when contraception was added to the Federal Employees Health Benefit System and required of non-religious employers in Hawaii. One study found that covering contraception lowered premiums by 10 percent or more.

Making everyone in a pool carry coverage whether they need it or not spreads the cost, saving money for those who really do need it and who’d choose to carry it if it were merely optional. But costs faced by the insurer are the same — and when the care is provided with no out-of-pocket costs, the insurer’s costs are likely to go up because more people will use it. Such is likely to be the case with contraception.

Also, let me emphasize one point that this does not address.  The government is forcing religious organizations to both pay for and facilitate activities that violate their religious doctrine.  If anyone thinks that passes muster with the First Amendment, that’s even more magical thinking than this funding shell game.

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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. -Thomas Jefferson

When I see polls saying that the majority of people want “free” stuff just makes me sad. They don’t know the true price they are paying.

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 5:00 PM

its not the case. contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Despite the scorn of many such as yourself and in spite of our faults and the shame many of us feel about our scandals, The Catholic contribution to society is immense.

Vince on February 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM

And this is only in modern history in the USA.

The Roman Catholic Church started the first universities in the world. It was the Roman Catholic Church who created the Scientific Method and which has made countles of other scientific discoveries.

By FAR the Roman Catholic Church has taught how to read and write, do math many more human beings than all secular institutions put together in the world.

Well said Vince. We are ashamed of the scandals that have happened within the Church. However, the hypocrisy of those who attack the Church is glaring.

The Los Angeles school system is caught up in a huge, huge pedophile case in which teachers, administrators, etc. were involved. Pay offs, etc. Where are the countless, upon countless, upon countless of stories? where are those who rage against the Church for the horrific pedophile cases that occurred?

Of course, this L.A. case is one of countless which the media and those who attack the Church stay silent on.

Let us face it, many of us have not liked the Church or do not like the Church because the Church, with no military, no police force, no power to force us to do anything tells us that we all lead lives of sin. All of us humans want to believe that we are good people and can’t fathom the fact that we lead poor lives.

That is the real problem people have with the Church. She looks at all of us in your eyes and tells us, sinner, stop sinning and repent. change your life, stop living a worldly life, give up your sins. People don’t like to be scolded or told that they are doing wrong.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:21 PM

Setting aside the religious freedom issue for a moment, where does the government get the Constitutional authority to require a private company to provide any product free of charge? I know the insurance companies that backed Obamacare essentially sold themselves out along with us and may not fight it, but that doesn’t really answer the question.

toby11 on February 10, 2012 at 5:21 PM

BBegley on February 10, 2012 at 4:56 PM

Your link is from the Guttmacher institute.

The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the “Center for Family Planning Program Development”, a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America. The Center was renamed in memory of Alan Frank Guttmacher, an Ob/Gyn and former president of Planned Parenthood,

Vince on February 10, 2012 at 5:22 PM

its not the case. contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Such convulted nonsense.

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 5:23 PM

There are 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. There are 67 million Catholics in the United States. Every single day the Catholic Church feeds, houses and clothes more people, takes care of more sick people, visits more prisoners and educates more people than any other institution on the face of this earth could ever hope to.*

The Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students in the US alone at the cost of 10 billion dollars. If public schools had to educate these students, it would cost the taxpayer 18 billion dollars.*

Catholic hospitals, 637 of them, treat 1 in 5 patients everyday. One Catholic Organization just in Chicago, Il. provides 2.2 million free meals to the needy in that area which is 6,207 meals a day.*

*(As of 2010 from the book Rediscover Catholicism by Matthew Kelly)

Despite the scorn of many such as yourself and in spite of our faults and the shame many of us feel about our scandals, The Catholic contribution to society is immense.

Vince on February 10, 2012 at 5:10 PM

1)in the same way, hamas contribution to lebanese society is also immense.

2)they do admirable work and i guess they attract many good people that would like to help in that good work too without agreeing to many of the church dictats. yet, the church wants all those good people to pay more for their contraception? you think this is right?

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM

2)they do admirable work and i guess they attract many good people that would like to help in that good work too without agreeing to many of the church dictats. yet, the church wants all those good people to pay more for their contraception? you think this is right?

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM

EH? pay more for their contraception? You are not even making sense!!

Eh, is the Church wrong for wanting people to pay for their food, clothes, etc?

Since when is contraception a God given Right?

Contraception is a want, not a need.

Why do you demand that the Church pay money so others can sin?

yes, it is right that the Church is demanding that those who want contraceptive pay it out of their own pocket and not force the Church to pay for it.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:29 PM

The pendulum is swinging back. It’s slow, but it’s swinging.

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

My very orthodox and conservative priest (who is also young and a convert) told me the other day the the seminarians coming behind him make him look like a moderate.

neuquenguy on February 10, 2012 at 5:31 PM

Setting aside the religious freedom issue for a moment, where does the government get the Constitutional authority to require a private company to provide any product free of charge?
toby11 on February 10, 2012 at 5:21 PM

How is the government requiring a company to provide a product free of charge?
Look, all these false premises don’t help with the argument being made against this policy.
The requirement is that it be an included benefit in an insurance policy – which the insurance company charges money (premiums) for.
And these premiums are paid by the employer and employee.

verbaluce on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

2)they do admirable work and i guess they attract many good people that would like to help in that good work too without agreeing to many of the church dictats. yet, the church wants all those good people to pay more for their contraception? you think this is right?

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM

If people want to use contraception then they’re free to buy it with their own damn money. I shouldn’t have to pay for it, and neither should the Catholic church, Catholics, or you.

What the hell is with you and the Catholic church anyway? I get it already, and so does everyone else. Drop it.

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

Nathor,

By the way, your comparison to Hamas is dispicable at best. Hamas “educates” people with the goal of having them turn terrorists.

When is the last time that countless of Catholics blew themselves up or acted as terrorist? Where in the Catholic Church can you find that Her goal is the destruction of a nation or other religion?

Talk about a straw man and a ridiculous one at that!

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

1)in the same way, hamas contribution to lebanese society is also immense.

2)they do admirable work and i guess they attract many good people that would like to help in that good work too without agreeing to many of the church dictats. yet, the church wants all those good people to pay more for their contraception? you think this is right?

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM

Not in the same way as Hamas. Since you believe that, you have shown me that you are not serious. Who are you to decide what is right for the Catholic church and what isn’t?

The church wants them to pay more for their contraceptives? No you idiot! They don’t want to provide contraceptives at all.

All you are is a troll and not worthy of further comment.

Vince on February 10, 2012 at 5:33 PM

The cost argument is stupid. And the health argunment is stupid. The heathiest AND cheapest form of birth control is condoms. But Planned Parenthood doesn’t sell them and Big Pharma doesn’t make them.

rockmom on February 10, 2012 at 5:12 PM

The cheapest and healthiest form of birth control is Natural Family Planning. Planned Parenthood and Big Pharma don’t provide it either.

Lily on February 10, 2012 at 5:33 PM

1)in the same way, hamas contribution to lebanese society is also immense.

That was silly, but…

Is the Church launching missiles at Canada or Mexico? Is it committing violence against other religion? No? Another straw man. I’m figuring out that this is the only argument you know.

2)they do admirable work and i guess they attract many good people that would like to help in that good work too without agreeing to many of the church dictats. yet, the church wants all those good people to pay more for their contraception? you think this is right?

They chose, they pay. They chose under no coercion to work for an organization that is opposed to contraception and makes no bones about it. Ultimate freedom.

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 5:34 PM

The pendulum is swinging back. It’s slow, but it’s swinging.

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM
My very orthodox and conservative priest (who is also young and a convert) told me the other day the the seminarians coming behind him make him look like a moderate.

neuquenguy on February 10, 2012 at 5:31 PM

YAY!!! Yes, this is what the Church needs!!

What Liberals do not know or refuse to talk about is that countless of Liberals joined Catholic Seminars because it was a way to avoid being drafted into Vietnam War!

It is well known that sadly in the USA there was also a point in which if you were a homosexual, in order for the Church to prove She was open mined and did not discriminate, you were pushed to the front of the line of admissions into a Catholic seminar.

The sins of the late 1960s and 1970s, its “open mindness” and accepting everyone and everyone so the World would accept the Church have come back and hunt us Catholics.

Today, the Church has realize that it can’t attempt to be accepted by the World. It must do what God wants regardless of the World.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:36 PM

Bad news prolly has Barry @ Camp David drunk driving a Volt.

BHO Jonestown on February 10, 2012 at 5:38 PM

where does the government get the Constitutional authority to require a private company to provide any product free of charge?
toby11 on February 10, 2012 at 5:21 PM

The government has no such authority, but the insurance companies are not going to actually be providing the products for “free” in any event. The anticipated cost of providing the contraceptives/abortion services to the religious organizations’ covered employees will be calculated by the insurance companies and included in the premiums charged to the religious organizations. Of course, to maintain the fiction, the insurance policies will say that contraceptives/abortion services are not covered — but call this phone number if you want these services – wink, wink– and we’ll provide them to you for free. So the federal government is still going to force religious organizations to pay for their employees’ contraceptives/abortions, but now we’re all going to pretend that the insurance companies are providing the coverage for free.

It’s a fraud, and everyone knows it’s a fraud. The only question is how many people are going to be willing to go along with the fraud.

AZCoyote on February 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM

Setting aside the religious freedom issue for a moment, where does the government get the Constitutional authority to require a private company to provide any product free of charge?
toby11 on February 10, 2012 at 5:21 PM

How is the government requiring a company to provide a product free of charge?
Look, all these false premises don’t help with the argument being made against this policy.
The requirement is that it be an included benefit in an insurance policy – which the insurance company charges money (premiums) for.
And these premiums are paid by the employer and employee.

verbaluce on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

Obama said the insurer must cover it without passing any of that cost on to the church or the employee — a/k/a free of charge — and I was questioning his authority to do that as if it were not a bald-faced lie. You and I both know that’s not how it works, but that means the church is still paying for the contraceptives and abortifacients, which means this isn’t an accommodation at all but a sham. QED.

toby11 on February 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM

What the hell is with you and the Catholic church anyway? I get it already, and so does everyone else. Drop it.

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

There is definitely some mayor obsession going on with Nathor and the Catholic church (or maybe it is with contraception) but he has been in every thread dealing with this issue with the same silly, selective Wikipedia powered arguments. Many of us have given up entertaining the nonsense.

neuquenguy on February 10, 2012 at 5:40 PM

So my clever plan will work after all…

All I have to do is go down and get a job as a gravedigger at the local Catholic graveyard, then I will get my birth control, and post-mistake abortifacient for free…

Will they pay for my sex-change operation too? If I’m biologically challenged to make use of birth control, but I’m paying for it for others, then I have a right to a free sex change operation too, right?

This is going to be so helpful to our society.

ElRonaldo on February 10, 2012 at 5:41 PM

They chose, they pay. They chose under no coercion to work for an organization that is opposed to contraception and makes no bones about it. Ultimate freedom.

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 5:34 PM

Sadly, what you state is a concept lost on many on the Left and a handful on the Right.

To them, as I have seen here, in other blogs and friends, it is an opportunity to attack the Church as supposedly being archaic, out of touch, not with the times, etc. etc. Of course, attacks that have been thrown at the Church from the very beginning.

NOW, Planned Parenthood, NARAL, and countless of pro-abortion groups are doing whatever they can to stick it to the Church. They mask their anti-Catholic, anti-Christian attacks with feel good woman speak and too many tools fall in place nodding their heads mindlessly.

But don’t fool yourself, this is a direct attack on Christianity by the pro-murderer of babies industry which makes millions of dollars on abortions. The Church and other religions stand on its way of making many more millions.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:43 PM

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 5:00 PM

Had to steal that and post on my fb page, Cindy…

lovingmyUSA on February 10, 2012 at 5:45 PM

AZCoyote on February 10, 2012 at 5:39 PM

Exactly right. No insurance company, NOT EVEN THE GOVERNMENT will provide anything for free. Someone will always pay. In the case of insurance companies, they will pass the cost on to consumers, employers and with higher premiums to employees and with the government, we all pay through taxes.

It is a load of B.S. when anyone says, “free healthcare”, “free contraceptive”, etc., etc.

Even when you go to a grocery store and you see, “buy one, get second one free…” someone, somewhere is paying for the, “…second one free…”

this is a concept that Liberals miss or purposedly lie about.

There is no such thing as a Free Lunch.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:46 PM

…the Church as supposedly being archaic, out of touch, not with the times, etc. etc.

And you know, given what these times are looking like and how great “hope and change” is working out, there’s absolutely NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!!

But don’t fool yourself, this is a direct attack on Christianity by the pro-murderer of babies industry which makes millions of dollars on abortions. The Church and other religions stand on its way of making many more millions.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:43 PM

Warp speed, Cap. Warp speed…

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 5:47 PM

Nathor, thank you for your candor.

I am unsure if 98% of Catholics women use contraceptives, I have seen this number thrown out by individuals who agree with President Obama’s assault on religions.

By the way, have you ever scolded your kids about doing something and then turned around and done it or you did it in the past? Hypocrisy is a human condition, not a Catholic condition.

I give to you that I really think that this hypocrisy is motivated mostly by good intentions.

But agree, if 98% is correct, it is 98% too many.

But I know quite a few Atheists, Protestants, secular humanists, etc. who love to preach, but they do not lead by example. So, it is not only Catholics.

protestants?
on the other hand, the secular humanists\atheists that do good deeds, mostly do not advertise their example so that others may follow.

AND there is a difference between a Cafetiria, Nominal Catholic and a true practicing Catholic.

I know. and its a huge difference.

1) Just because a majority of people do not follow the laws of God, it doesn’t mean that the law will be changed. What is, it is and will always be regardless of who agrees or disagrees.

sure, fine.

2) Yes, unfortunately, here in the USA the Roman Catholic Church has failed teaching Catholics its tenants and the reasons behind them. Sadly, too many priests, since they are human, are more worried about being popular and accepted then admonishing people for not following the rules and laws of God.

its a tough battle for them.

If the Church wants to win this battle, it must change from within and start once again to teach Catholicism. Pop culture seems more attractive, but at the end, it is not a happy life.

it will not work. such internal renovation would probably provoke more schisms.

I can give you an example of a friend of mine who has an older daughter in what is considered a great Catholic schools. She came home in the Fall of 2011 with all types of sophisticated, excellent history books, science books, philosphy books, math books and for religion? she had a coloring book. My friend was shocked and he went and complainted to the Catholic school about it asking where were the books by St. Thomas More, St. Augustine, and the great many other Doctors of the Church.

if chatolic schools where more strongly religious, many less religious parents would start to see that with negativity and quite possibly remove their children from there.

3) As for what the priests talk about during a Mass. Well, you are free to listen or not. No one is forcing you to be there. Many times, as you stated, the only time that “Catholics” will now go to a Mass is during a funeral, baptism, a first communion, Christmas, Easter. Thus the priest will attempt to get a lot in.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:04 PM

know that it quite bad taste to say certain things that personally i found offensive in funerals. such events are not place for sermons.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:50 PM

The cost argument is stupid. And the health argunment is stupid. The heathiest AND cheapest form of birth control is condoms. But Planned Parenthood doesn’t sell them and Big Pharma doesn’t make them.

It is true that condoms add a another level of protection. I have very strongly encouraged my daughter to use both condoms and oral contraceptives when she is ready for sex.

The cost argument isn’t stupid, because it’s the core of what the church and conservatives are complaining about. Having to pay for something they believe is evil. If the cost is $0, that argument doesn’t carry much weight.

BBegley on February 10, 2012 at 5:51 PM

Let’s see, I’m being told that “I am not paying for my collision insurance on my car, because my car insurance includes full replacement value when needed. And everyone knows that replacing a car is more expensive than fixing it. Therefore my insurance is free when it only needs to be fixed.”

How special.

G. Charles on February 10, 2012 at 5:53 PM

When I see polls saying that the majority of people want “free” stuff just makes me sad. They don’t know the true price they are paying.

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 5:00 PM

“Free” means the same as take it away since production requires money to fund production. No money = No production.

But the free thinkers in Obamaland look at the unicorns and fairy dust in their dreams is real.

RJL on February 10, 2012 at 5:56 PM

The cost argument isn’t stupid, because it’s the core of what the church and conservatives are complaining about. Having to pay for something they believe is evil. If the cost is $0, that argument doesn’t carry much weight.

BBegley on February 10, 2012 at 5:51 PM

The cost isn’t zero. What world do you live in?

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 5:57 PM

EH? pay more for their contraception? You are not even making sense!!

Eh, is the Church wrong for wanting people to pay for their food, clothes, etc?

Since when is contraception a God given Right?

Contraception is a want, not a need.

Why do you demand that the Church pay money so others can sin?

yes, it is right that the Church is demanding that those who want contraceptive pay it out of their own pocket and not force the Church to pay for it.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:29 PM

as it was already explained, the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free because it reduces pregnancy related costs.
basically the insurer is giving away the contraception to avoid pregnancy costs. if the church interferes in this scheme, it is because they are interested in making the employees pay more for contraception than they have to.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:57 PM

If people want to use contraception then they’re free to buy it with their own damn money. I shouldn’t have to pay for it, and neither should the Catholic church, Catholics, or you.

What the hell is with you and the Catholic church anyway? I get it already, and so does everyone else. Drop it.

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

as it was already explained, the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free because it reduces pregnancy related costs.
basically the insurer is giving away the contraception to avoid pregnancy costs. if the church interferes in this scheme, it is because they are interested in making the employees pay more for contraception than they have to.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:00 PM

as it was already explained, the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free because it reduces pregnancy related costs.
basically the insurer is giving away the contraception to avoid pregnancy costs. if the church interferes in this scheme, it is because they are interested in making the employees pay more for contraception than they have to.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:57 PM

Pregnancy is already covered under most policies. Adding contraceptives increases that cost. It’s not free.

Secondly, pregnancy isn’t a disease, and many pregnancies aren’t planned.

Thirdly, contraceptives shouldn’t be included period. My insurance doesn’t buy me new running shoes every six months.

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 6:02 PM

its not the case. contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

NOTHING is free, do you think there is any “free” stuff in our family’s $400+ portion of our insurance premium?

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 6:03 PM

as it was already explained, the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free because it reduces pregnancy related costs.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:00 PM

Who cares. People that want to use contraceptives are already using them. Availibilty and cost is no factor.

You want to screw and not get pregnant, buy your own contraceptives.

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 6:04 PM

BBegley on February 10, 2012 at 4:56 PM

Your link is from the Guttmacher institute.

The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the “Center for Family Planning Program Development”, a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America. The Center was renamed in memory of Alan Frank Guttmacher, an Ob/Gyn and former president of Planned Parenthood,

Vince on February 10, 2012 at 5:22 PM

Politifact

The politifact article indicates that the data in the report comes directly from the CDC.

CDC Link

BBegley on February 10, 2012 at 6:04 PM

Nathor,

You said, “…the secular humanists\atheists that do good deeds, mostly do not advertise their example so that others may follow.”

all secularist/humanists that I know can’t stop advertising how good they are. In fact, even the ones that I do not know!! They give each other rewards, dinners, prizes. They list their names on bricks, doors, walls. What are you talking about?

By the way, Catholics, Protestants, Christians advertise the great that they do? The only reason it was pointed out to you here because you seem adament on attacking the Church. I can assure you that the Christianity that I was taught, Catholic, it said that you do good deeds for God’s eyes only. If anyone else find out, what is the point, you have been rewarded here on Earth and thus Heaven doesn’ thave to reward you anymore.

You also said, “…it will not work. such internal renovation would probably provoke more schisms.”

It might or it might not. Neither you nor I know. However, the Church must stand for God and not humans. The times the Church has attempted to stand for humans and not God, She has fallen into grave sin.

You said, “…if chatolic schools where more strongly religious, many less religious parents would start to see that with negativity and quite possibly remove their children from there.”

Again, maybe yes, or maybe not. One thing that is happening and there have been studies about this. That Catholics seem to flock and like more the true Catholicism, which some like to call Conservative Catholicism, than the wishy-washy Wordly Catholicism.

If parents have a child in a Catholic school merely for their worldy education (math, history, writing skills) and not his/her soul, maybe just maybe they shouldn’t have their son/daughter there at all. If your child’s school does not reflect your values at home, it doesn’t matter where you send them. Unfortunately, many parents want their kids to go to good schools. They know Catholic schools are great, but they don’t want to hear the teachings of the Church because I will admit it, humanly, they are hard to follow. Especially if you have allowed a vice to go on and on and on and on and on and on for decades.

By the way, the problem with us Catholics today is that we do not bother to read and understand St. Thomas More, St. Augustine, St. Therese of Little Flower and the other Doctors of the Church. If you want to know what REAL Catholicism is all about read these and understand them.

Additionally, if you want to know more about what the Church teaches on sexuality, contraceptives and Her thiking and Logic behind Her teachings, read John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body” and Humanae Vitae.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:05 PM

Not sure exactly why a religious organization has more rights than other employers, however.
antisense on February 10, 2012 at 3:52 PM

They don’t if they are one of the 2000 unions that Obama has waived from his Obama care.

DSchoen on February 10, 2012 at 6:06 PM

Nathor,

By the way, your comparison to Hamas is dispicable at best. Hamas “educates” people with the goal of having them turn terrorists.

When is the last time that countless of Catholics blew themselves up or acted as terrorist? Where in the Catholic Church can you find that Her goal is the destruction of a nation or other religion?

Talk about a straw man and a ridiculous one at that!

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 5:32 PM

I did not mean it like that. just saying that an organization good work cannot cover its faults, which seemed that was the argument you were trying to push. or else, Hamas would be equally excused.

This to say that good work of the church should be praised but its good work should not stop its faults from being criticized.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:07 PM

BBegley on February 10, 2012 at 6:04 PM

And politifact is a non-partisan group, right? NOT!!!

and the CDC? if it were true…who cares?! your point is with your numbers? Morality is based on how the majority acts?

unsure what your point is with your numbers. Be clear or move on.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:07 PM

the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free

As Cindy pointed out to your earlier assertion, it isn’t free. Insurance costs are spread out across all those purchase insurance. You know that, or you should. To pretend ignorance is really beneath you.

This still forces the Church to pay for it. You know that.

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 6:07 PM

its not the case. contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Drivel.

People should be paying for them themselves…thus not free and nor should it be the federal government’s place anyway.

CW on February 10, 2012 at 6:08 PM

it isn’t free. .

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 6:07 PM

Maybe Obama should just declare our debt as “free”.

CW on February 10, 2012 at 6:11 PM

Hey guys! Your insurance will give you all new running shoes, weights sets, bikes and all the healthy food you can eat because IT’S FREE!!!!!!!

See, it’s free because it avoids very expensive heart bypass surgery.

Call your insurance company today and start getting all the free stuff!!!!

darwin on February 10, 2012 at 6:12 PM

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Should Viagra be “free” also?

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 6:14 PM

I did not mean it like that. just saying that an organization good work cannot cover its faults, which seemed that was the argument you were trying to push. or else, Hamas would be equally excused.

This to say that good work of the church should be praised but its good work should not stop its faults from being criticized.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:07 PM

Well, if that was your intent, I agree. God created the Church for this World as of right now, until the end of times, it will be partially of this World and the Church is not above human reproach.

But 99% of the criticism thrown at the Church is either false, things taken out of context, attacked for mistakes that when found in teh secular world people stay silent or are not nearly as outraged or made by individuals who lead less than perfect lives, but expect perfection from the Church, Her leaders and members.

The Church is run by imperfect, sinful human beings. To expect perfection from them is immature and naive at best. Her Dogmas come from God, thus these are infallible (a whole other discussion). But the good deeds of the Church FAR outweigh what Her members and leaders truly have done wrong.

I measure a man, a woman, an organization by the whole of his/her actions, not merely by the good or bad deeds. We all sin, we all do wrong. But good people do more right than wrong. Good people never stop fighting the good fight, despite their horrific falls. The Church will always fight the good fight regardless of the sins of Her members and leaders.

From what you have stated here, your problem is with the Church and for whatever reason you can’t stand Her.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:14 PM

Maybe Obama should just declare our debt as “free”.

CW on February 10, 2012 at 6:11 PM

You know, if he borrows more from China today that we currently owe, than we really don’t owe anything on the old debt.

I like it! BORROW!!!!!

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 6:17 PM

What do is it that you Liberals do not get?

No Christian religion which believes contraceptives are wrong is forcing anyone not to buy these! Not one! (this also affects Islam by the way! Maybe by writing this Liberals will back off since they will offend Muslims…hahaha!!)

You can work at a Catholic school, university, hospital, community center and buy your contraceptives without getting fired. Without ANY persecution from the Church.

So, can any of you liberals please explain why you claim that the Church is forcing people not to buy contraceptives? eh? ridiculous!

On the other hand, YOU and your god Obama are forcing religions which know contraceptives are wrong to buy these through insurance coverage. Forcing them to go against their religious teachings, tenants.

So, you don’t want religions to force you to go against your morals beliefs, but you have zero problem forcing religions to go against their. Do you Liberals honestly not see how hypocritical your stance on this is? Of course not.

Why do you Liberals love to force your morals and beliefs on us on those whom you disagree with?

and you have to “love” the Liberal tools who are quoting polls. Where were you when the California courts went against the majority of Californias on gay marriage? Where you quoting polls also showing that the majority of Californians disagree with gay marriage?

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:21 PM

Maybe Obama should just declare our debt as “free”.

CW on February 10, 2012 at 6:11 PM
You know, if he borrows more from China today that we currently owe, than we really don’t owe anything on the old debt.

I like it! BORROW!!!!!

Kraken on February 10, 2012 at 6:17 PM

Using the Liberal logic, they should all be lining up demanding free food from their employer!!! Why only healthcare? Without food, you can’t get anything, right?

Food is essential for all of us to survive, not healthcare. So…where are the Liberals who are demanding free food for all of us? Where are the petitions, the huge Liberal political movement demanding free food?

How DARE grocery stores, Wal-mart, Target, etc make a profit on selling food?! don’t they realize that this is a grave human need that without it we won’t survive?

Liberalism is the last thing from logical.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:24 PM

Nathor,

You said, “…the secular humanists\atheists that do good deeds, mostly do not advertise their example so that others may follow.”

all secularist/humanists that I know can’t stop advertising how good they are. In fact, even the ones that I do not know!! They give each other rewards, dinners, prizes. They list their names on bricks, doors, walls. What are you talking about?

dinners? prizes?that is not selfless work! i am thinking humanitarian workers in africa. you get prizes for that?

By the way, Catholics, Protestants, Christians advertise the great that they do? The only reason it was pointed out to you here because you seem adament on attacking the Church. I can assure you that the Christianity that I was taught, Catholic, it said that you do good deeds for God’s eyes only. If anyone else find out, what is the point, you have been rewarded here on Earth and thus Heaven doesn’ thave to reward you anymore.

sure, but after your death they can make a saint out of you and advertise what a exemplary life should be.
not that there is something really wrong with it.

You also said, “…it will not work. such internal renovation would probably provoke more schisms.”

It might or it might not. Neither you nor I know. However, the Church must stand for God and not humans. The times the Church has attempted to stand for humans and not God, She has fallen into grave sin.

the reverse might also be true. because many atrocities done by the church where done in the name of god at expense of humans.
i urge you to consider well your statement, because it really is one of the things that scare me most about religion in general.

You said, “…if chatolic schools where more strongly religious, many less religious parents would start to see that with negativity and quite possibly remove their children from there.”

Again, maybe yes, or maybe not. One thing that is happening and there have been studies about this. That Catholics seem to flock and like more the true Catholicism, which some like to call Conservative Catholicism, than the wishy-washy Wordly Catholicism.

sure, but they risk losing a very good portion of the nominal catholics.

If parents have a child in a Catholic school merely for their worldy education (math, history, writing skills) and not his/her soul, maybe just maybe they shouldn’t have their son/daughter there at all. If your child’s school does not reflect your values at home, it doesn’t matter where you send them. Unfortunately, many parents want their kids to go to good schools. They know Catholic schools are great, but they don’t want to hear the teachings of the Church because I will admit it, humanly, they are hard to follow. Especially if you have allowed a vice to go on and on and on and on and on and on for decades.

i have some thoughts about this, but i will leave it for another thread.

By the way, the problem with us Catholics today is that we do not bother to read and understand St. Thomas More, St. Augustine, St. Therese of Little Flower and the other Doctors of the Church. If you want to know what REAL Catholicism is all about read these and understand them.

the city of god…
i read a little of them. invariably they make many of their conclusions based on dogma, which makes them hard to agree with.

Additionally, if you want to know more about what the Church teaches on sexuality, contraceptives and Her thiking and Logic behind Her teachings, read John Paul II’s “Theology of the Body” and Humanae Vitae.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:05 PM

I should read it. yes.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:28 PM

Nathor,

You said, “…dinners? prizes?that is not selfless work! i am thinking humanitarian workers in africa. you get prizes for that?”

The largest humanitarian worker in Africa is the Roman Catholic Church!!!

And again, sorry, secular/humanist come back from Africa and advertise everywhere there great work they do in Africa, Oprah and other secular/humanist come to mind.

You said, “…the reverse might also be true. because many atrocities done by the church where done in the name of god at expense of humans.
i urge you to consider well your statement, because it really is one of the things that scare me most about religion in general.

Atrocities like what? I know the list. The atrocities may have been done in the name of God (I notice that you don’t capitalize it, so you must be an atheist which if you are, it expalins alot), but not for God. People may excuse themselves infront of others claiming it was in the name of God, but 9 times out of 10, it was for themselves.

By the way, you really don’t want me to talk about the atrocities of secular/humanists, atheists. More than 100s of millions of human beings mass slaughtered at the hands of secularists, humanists, atheists in the 20th century alone! And these horrific atrocities were done for humans, according to the secularist, atheists, humanists.

if your beef with the Roman Catholic Church is what you consider Her atrocities, then I must assume that you are not a secular/humanist, an atheists since many more atrocities, murdering many more 100s of millions of human beings have been committed by these.

We must do things for God without harming human beings, but never, ever compromising God’s law. Whever God’s law and human laws conflict, God’s laws take precedent.

I would urge you to reconsider your stance on secular humanism, on atheism since its emphasis on human beings has led to the mass murder of 100s of millions of human beings.

If you want we can talk about the atrocities committed during the French Revolution by the secular humanist where the mass muredereds 100s of thousands of Catholics, nuns, priests, monks, practicing catholics. Where it was forbidden to practice Catholicism. Catholic Churches closed, schools too. Catholic churches turned into secular humanist temples where horrific things went on against human beings, including women raped, children raped, etc.

If that is not good enough, we can talk about the secular humanists, atheists carried out during the Cristero Wars. If that is still not enough, we can move on to the atrocities committed by secular humanists, atheists in the Spanish Civil War. If that is not enough, we can move on to the USSR, China, Cuba, and the rest of the places where secular humanists, atheists have committed unspeakable, horrific atrocities against humans whose “sin” were being a Jewish, Christian, not bowing down to them.

I find it amazing when any secular humanist, atheist starts with the atrocities of the Church since anything you can bring up is childs play compared to the horrors secular humanists, atheists have carried out against humanity.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:46 PM

as it was already explained, the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free because it reduces pregnancy related costs.
nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:57 PM

You’ve made this argument repeatedly, but that still doesn’t make it true. If insurers had data showing that providing their insureds with free contraceptives/abortions resulted in substantial cost savings for insurers, they would already have been offering them for free to their insureds all over the country. The fact that insurers have not done so, despite your insistence that it is their best economic interests, should be your first clue that there is something wrong with your argument.

AZCoyote on February 10, 2012 at 6:47 PM

Interesting article on how these “religious freedom” legal challenges could play out, thanks to Justice Scalia:
http://tinyurl.com/6s9zn4k

Drew Lowell on February 10, 2012 at 6:52 PM

Narthor,

You also said, “sure, but they risk losing a very good portion of the nominal catholics.”

Sadly, many of these are already lost. it is the Church’s duty to teach what is Right and Moral without worrying what the World will say or do. What nomial Catholics will say or do.

Teaching Morals, Truth, Rigth from Wrong can’t be silenced by, “what will they do or say?”

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:54 PM

Well, if that was your intent, I agree. God created the Church for this World as of right now, until the end of times, it will be partially of this World and the Church is not above human reproach.

But 99% of the criticism thrown at the Church is either false, things taken out of context, attacked for mistakes that when found in teh secular world people stay silent or are not nearly as outraged or made by individuals who lead less than perfect lives, but expect perfection from the Church, Her leaders and members.

99% false of misleading?!?! no. way.
I will make one accusation now regarding, for example, child molesting. my peeve is not that some reduced number of priests done it. my peeve is that the church hierarchy tried to hide those cases. I mean, they knew the priests had committed crimes and they took the premeditated decision of covering it up. thus thwarting justice to the victims and disrespecting the laws of the country.
My accusation is that for those responsible for the cover up, the good name of the church was more important than the secular law of the country and justice for the victims. this is the kind of stuff that really makes me angry with the church.

The Church is run by imperfect, sinful human beings. To expect perfection from them is immature and naive at best. Her Dogmas come from God, thus these are infallible (a whole other discussion). But the good deeds of the Church FAR outweigh what Her members and leaders truly have done wrong.

maybe now the good deeds outweigh the faults. but historically is hard to defend such position considering 1000 years of dark age where its hard to know how exactly the church was helping society as a whole.

I measure a man, a woman, an organization by the whole of his/her actions, not merely by the good or bad deeds. We all sin, we all do wrong. But good people do more right than wrong. Good people never stop fighting the good fight, despite their horrific falls. The Church will always fight the good fight regardless of the sins of Her members and leaders.

ok. will do.

From what you have stated here, your problem is with the Church and for whatever reason you can’t stand Her.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:14 PM

somehow, your statement made me give a good reflexion on why I hate the church so, and, I concluded my hate is hyped and probably a result of the political fight. I should cool it down.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:55 PM

You’ve made this argument repeatedly, but that still doesn’t make it true. If insurers had data showing that providing their insureds with free contraceptives/abortions resulted in substantial cost savings for insurers, they would already have been offering them for free to their insureds all over the country. The fact that insurers have not done so, despite your insistence that it is their best economic interests, should be your first clue that there is something wrong with your argument.

AZCoyote on February 10, 2012 at 6:47 PM

the claim that contraception reduces costs was on the Sibelius and the church response to it did not challenged the fact.
i have no answer to your statement. maybe there is some explanation. but unless you provide some study that proves contraception does not reduce costs, I will keep believing it.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 7:06 PM

Narthor,

You said, “maybe now the good deeds outweigh the faults. but historically is hard to defend such position considering 1000 years of dark age where its hard to know how exactly the church was helping society as a whole.”

I don’t have time to reply to your whole post. However, this statement above is not accurate.

The “Darkages”, had more to do with society, culture and humanity than the Catholic Church!!!

If it had not been for countless upon countless of Catholic monks, priests, etc spending countless of hours, days, weeks, years, decades, centuries saving ancient history, ancient documents, etc., etc., today we would live in the dark ages.

Your pedophile point, has merit to it. But I just do not understand a world which finds outrage in the Church’s handling of the pedophile cases, but stays silent when much worse is done in the secular world. Not excusing the action of SOME in the Church, just a bit confused over the different reactions.

Let us not forget that we live in a world were the secular world, the American Psychological Association, the APA for example, is making every effort to make pedophile a psychological issue and pushing hard to decriminalize it. Where is the outrage from those who have gone after the Church? None existant against the APA, complete silence.

Too many Bishops and priests failed in this case and it is due to the the Liberalism which has zipped into the Church which is slowly, but surely being pushed out with more Conservative teaching, priests, etc.

their failure is not anymore sinful, wrong than American public schools, systems, teachers’ union doing exactly the same thing. Where is the same level of outrage against these? None existant.

there is a huge cover up coming out of the Los Angeles public school system…where is teh equal outrage, news coverage, etc that the Church has received?

I don’t mean to attack you at all, but I find that most people who dislike the Church base their hate on falsehoods, misunderstandings and historical inaccuracies. OR people who for whatever reason already didn’t like the Church’s teaching and use the pedophile case as a means to justify their stance.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 7:12 PM

Should Viagra be “free” also?

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 6:14 PM

free as included in goverment mandated insurance? i don’t think so! and use of Viagra will probably increase insurance costs anyway.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 7:15 PM

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 7:15 PM

The funny thing is that it has been covered while birth control has been excluded. Erectile dysfunction is considered health issue while having or not having children is considered a choice. The government has been paying for birth control for low income women because the government (i.e. us) must pay for the children. I am sure that the word spinners are going to be happy with this compromise but mandates, whether overruling the religious exception or telling insurance companies that they must supply something free of charge is not how we are suppose to work.

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 7:44 PM

Nathor,

You said, “…the reverse might also be true. because many atrocities done by the church where done in the name of god at expense of humans.
i urge you to consider well your statement, because it really is one of the things that scare me most about religion in general.

Atrocities like what? I know the list. The atrocities may have been done in the name of God (I notice that you don’t capitalize it, so you must be an atheist which if you are, it expalins alot), but not for God. People may excuse themselves infront of others claiming it was in the name of God, but 9 times out of 10, it was for themselves.

I am atheist and have been since my teens. i usually dont capitalize words. A defect I am working on.
when people like you put god above humans, you are opening the doors for abuse. but we have proof that religion can lead to madness, just look at muslims killing themselfs for God.

By the way, you really don’t want me to talk about the atrocities of secular/humanists, atheists. More than 100s of millions of human beings mass slaughtered at the hands of secularists, humanists, atheists in the 20th century alone! And these horrific atrocities were done for humans, according to the secularist, atheists, humanists.

humans killing humans is nothing new. the great number of deaths are mostly due the larger populations. however, you would have a point if you proved me that a devoutly christian region engaged less in wars. just remembering medieval Europe wars dispels such assertion.

if your beef with the Roman Catholic Church is what you consider Her atrocities, then I must assume that you are not a secular/humanist, an atheists since many more atrocities, murdering many more 100s of millions of human beings have been committed by these.

there is more to atrocities than mere body count.

We must do things for God without harming human beings, but never, ever compromising God’s law. Whever God’s law and human laws conflict, God’s laws take precedent.

should unbelievers forced to follow god’s law. if not explain this

I would urge you to reconsider your stance on secular humanism, on atheism since its emphasis on human beings has led to the mass murder of 100s of millions of human beings.

are you talking death resulting of abortion?

If you want we can talk about the atrocities committed during the French Revolution by the secular humanist where the mass muredereds 100s of thousands of Catholics, nuns, priests, monks, practicing catholics. Where it was forbidden to practice Catholicism. Catholic Churches closed, schools too. Catholic churches turned into secular humanist temples where horrific things went on against human beings, including women raped, children raped, etc.

revolutions are not pretty, but i confess I admire the ideals of the french revolution. the same ideals inspired our great nation constitution. regarding the anti clericalism of past centuries, I think it was partially deserved. the church hold too much power and abused it.

If that is not good enough, we can talk about the secular humanists, atheists carried out during the Cristero Wars. If that is still not enough, we can move on to the atrocities committed by secular humanists, atheists in the Spanish Civil War. If that is not enough, we can move on to the USSR, China, Cuba, and the rest of the places where secular humanists, atheists have committed unspeakable, horrific atrocities against humans whose “sin” were being a Jewish, Christian, not bowing down to them.

you are putting secularists that believe in secular democracies in the same bag as totalitarian secularists. it is unfair. I think that both religionists and non-religionists learn from the last century that a secular democracy was the only possible chance of co-existance between the 2 groups. do you pretend to change this status quo?

I find it amazing when any secular humanist, atheist starts with the atrocities of the Church since anything you can bring up is childs play compared to the horrors secular humanists, atheists have carried out against humanity.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 6:46 PM

its hard to beat the inquisition tortures in terms of sheer horror. maybe cambodja or north korea can beat it, but if we talk north korea, they are almost a religion themselves anyway.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 7:55 PM

Forgive me, please, if this has already been addressed…

What happens in the circumstances where a Catholic church, hospital, school, or other Catholic entity has been/is insured by an insurance company which is itself a Catholic entity?

Will Obamandate require the Catholic insurance company to go out of business? I mean, of what possible further use to Catholics will a Catholic insurance company be? How could it remain in business without compromising Catholic doctrine?

Those questions are only slightly sarcastic, and I truly wonder what the answers are. Do you suppose the magic-mirror prez knows?

GGMac on February 10, 2012 at 7:56 PM

Ultimately this is just another “reason” to go single payer government insurance. Suckers!!! I’m watching a repeat of the Ass right now saying that all women should have free contraceptives regardless of their income, then he will want to turn around and tax the rich b!tches to cover all the “free” care. Again, suckers!!!!!

Cindy Munford on February 10, 2012 at 8:05 PM

Nathor,

Wow! just wow how fast you excuse the mass murders, excluding abortions, carried out by secularist humanist, atheists, etc.

You are quick to excuse mass murder when committed by atheists due to their beliefs, but quite slow at doing the same for the Church when the Church’s short comings are far less and less horrific compared to atheist atrocities.

You admired the French Revolution? You excuse the anti-catholicism that happened where 100s of thousands of monsk, nuns, priests, practicing Catholics died at the hands of secularists and atheists.

Oh, and the old atheist excuse, “since there are more human beings now, it is a given that we atheists will kill more than what I believe Catholic did” Serioiusly nathor? SERIOUSLY…

and the Inquisition? by this you show your deep misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of history. The catholic insquistion killed far less and I mean FAR less and tortured FAR less human beings than the secular governments of the same time.

Sorry, atheist governments, atheist individuals, the horrors you atheists have carreid out in the name of your beliefs, The goddess of Reason in the French Revolution, for example, far exceed anything you can come up with the Church has done.

Again, if your problem with the Church is what you deem as atrocities, why are you an atheist if atheist mass murders far out number anything the Church has done.

And lets us not forget that for secular reasons, Ancient Rome, Ancient Egypt, Alexander the great, all secular cultures mass murdered countless upon countless of human beings.

Pretend to change the status quo? great straw man there buddy. When did I even come close to saying this. I am merely pointing out the inconvinient truth which you have excused, Atheist have mass murdered 100s of millions of human beings, and again, this excludes abortions.

And funny you are complaining that I am including Athetist totaletarians with what you called atheists who believe in democracies, since it is your favorite thing to do to mix individuals who use religions to step on the rights of others and individuals who do not use religion for this purpose. Don’t complain about what you do. thanks!

So, because you personally believe that the Church held too much power in the past you are excusing the mass murder at the hand of atheists, secular humanists of priests, nuns, monks, practicing Catholics? eh?

and you excuse the closing of Churches which then were turned into secular humanist temples where women were raped, children too? Are these the ideals of the French Revolution which you agree with?

You excuse Athiest mass murder, but are outraged by you have been taught are the atrocities of the Church.

History proves that Atheists and secular humanist have mass murdered many more 100s of millions of human beings than all religiosn combined. I know Atheists can’t stand this truth and excuse it all they can. But history is history.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 8:10 PM

Nathor,

you said, “should unbelievers forced to follow god’s law. if not explain this…” this being the 1953 agreement between the Church and Franco.

Hmmm…unsure what you are talking about. No one in Spain under Franco was forced to follow anything put out by the Catholic Church.

A bit paranoid, Nathor?

You seem to forget the horrors carried out by the communists, atheists, secularist in Spain against practicing Catholics, nuns, priests, etc. I urge you to consider carefully how you answer since my grandfther fought in the Spanish Civil War and he saw how atheists, secular-humanist treated priests, nuns, monks, practicing catholics. Your atheists raped nuns, sodomized priests, hung priests, bombed Churches, desacrated Catholic Church, its alters by raping nuns on them by killing priests while they were giving Mass. is this what you consider to be less horrific than the Inquistion?

Please stop with your communist, atheist propaganda. The Inquisition was childs play compared to the horrors you atheists have carried out against humanity. Don’t believe me, study history.

Anyway, I am off. Will return later tonight or tomorrow.

Cpt. Kirk on February 10, 2012 at 8:17 PM

Cpt. Kirk,

Thank you for your answers and the time you give to them. I hope we can have more discussions over these themes soon but for now, for time reasons, we should end this discussion. I must say that in some ways, I respect people like you that take their religion seriously and had clearly an effort to learn the history and theology of associated to it.
defending the catholic church is no easy task but you do it coherently. just be carefull with the “tu quoques”.

until next time,
Cheers!

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 8:30 PM

Nathor,

you said, “should unbelievers forced to follow god’s law. if not explain this…” this being the 1953 agreement between the Church and Franco.

Hmmm…unsure what you are talking about. No one in Spain under Franco was forced to follow anything put out by the Catholic Church.

A bit paranoid, Nathor?

During the Franco years, Roman Catholicism was the only religion to have legal status; other worship services could not be advertised, and the Roman Catholic Church was the only religious institution that was permitted to own property or publish books. The government not only continued to pay priests’ salaries and to subsidize the church, but it also assisted in the reconstruction of church buildings damaged by the war. Laws were passed abolishing divorce and banning the sale of contraceptives. Catholic religious instruction was mandatory, even in public schools.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 8:34 PM

Hon, could you do me a favor and go buy a Playboy magazine for me down at the local Kum n Go?

No. I find that morally objectionable.

OK, then. Let’s compromise. Why don’t you just take $10 down there and I will go pick up a free copy.

That’s absurd.

Fine. Give me a hundred bucks, and I’ll go down and grab a tank of gas, some chips, a few lottery tickets and some beef jerky. Preferably teriyaki flavor. That should come to about 90 bucks. Then I’ll ask for my free porn.

But what if they don’t want to give you free porn?

Easy. I’ll give them the ten bucks I have left over, tell them to just charge me more for the other items, and we can all feel better?

How will that make us all feel better.

Isn’t it obvious? I get my lust fix, the convenience store gets its money, and you get to maintain your moral standards.

But aren’t we all just lying to ourselves? That’s pathetic. Do you have so little regard for everyone’s intelligence? You must think we’re all stupid!

Actually, I’m counting on it. You don’t mind, do you?

TheMagnanimousMan on February 10, 2012 at 8:38 PM

Has any religious group signed off on this?

I first heard about Obama backing off on this via a radio news report around noon. They made a statement that “many religious origination’s have signed off on this”.

My question is have they really?

F15Mech

F15Mech on February 10, 2012 at 10:38 PM

as it was already explained, the insurance given by the church to their employees can cover contraception free because it reduces pregnancy related costs.
basically the insurer is giving away the contraception to avoid pregnancy costs. if the church interferes in this scheme, it is because they are interested in making the employees pay more for contraception than they have to.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 6:00 PM

So your argument is that the insurers actually save money by giving contraceptives for free because these are pregnancies they would have otherwise had to cover?
Well you can believe that line of BS. But what I believe is that insurance companies are businesses filled with very sharp actuaries, financial analysts and bottom-line oriented business folks. And if your assertion were correct, contraception would have been offered for free many decades ago to squeeze a few extra nickels to the insurance companies. But that’s just me.

mdenis39 on February 11, 2012 at 12:55 AM

The Catholic church shouldn’t be required to provide ANY insurance, nor should any business. But ultimately the problem is lies in even letting employers pay for ANY insurance for any of their employees. Stop giving ‘benefits’ to people and just give them cash and let them decide how to spend it. If they are wise and save, buy products that protect them and their assets, they will find themselves able to retire in comfort at a relatively young age. If they do not, they will not be able to retire at all.

The question is, if we the people stop paying for medical and retirement, what happens?

Right now, by law and moral obligation, hospitals and medical providers must treat anyone that knocks on their door. This isn’t something we can (or should) change. Well into the 20th century, people would receive treatment, and then receive a bill and come to terms to repay that debt.

The argument is that healthcare costs are now out of control, and that no one can be expectd to pay their debt, and healthcare if left to its own, woul become a service only available to the rich.

However, if people only used what they needed and paid for it, the immense cost would drop down almost right away.

If anyone was serious about lowering prices, and costs, they’d get employers out of the business of providing the products and let people shop for what they need and what. Most would want/need catastrophic.

The entire catholic church problem would dissipate and everyone would be able to afford much better healthcare, and hospitals and doctors would be much easier to get appointments with, particularly for the neediest.

Ain’t gonna happen.

WashingtonsWake on February 11, 2012 at 2:49 AM

its not the case. contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

I’m stunned. This type of thinking is as moronic as believing “saved jobs” equals “created jobs”.

Zooid on February 11, 2012 at 4:07 AM

1)in the same way, hamas contribution to lebanese society is also immense.

2)they do admirable work and i guess they attract many good people that would like to help in that good work too without agreeing to many of the church dictats. yet, the church wants all those good people to pay more for their contraception? you think this is right?

nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:26 PM

This is hilarious. You’re like a child taking swings at a pinata. You swing as hard as you can but you keep missing. Keep it up, someday you may get some candy. It’s easier pickings over at the DailyKos though. You might try there.

Zooid on February 11, 2012 at 4:18 AM

What happens now to the Knights Of Columbus affiliated insurance companies? Will they be forced to offer free contraception even though Religious based?
This move could possibly be the cattle prod that wakes up the Catholic vote to the truth. I for one am tired of seeing Obama bumper stickers in my Church parking lot on Sunday. I’m “Hoping for Change”

Art on February 11, 2012 at 8:14 AM

Why is contraception a right and women’s “reproductive health” elevated above all else? What about “heart health”? Shouldn’t statins be provided for free? Why doesn’t Obama order my employer or insurance companies to provide for the right of heart health and provide statins for free?

LaurieM134 on February 11, 2012 at 11:21 AM

Where do insurers get money to pay claims? They collect premiums and co-pays from the insured group or risk pool.

Plus reserves and investments and re-insurance. Not all companies function under Loss Adjustment Expense of 100%, LAE being the amount of premium spent on paying claims. When an LAE is 101% and above, the company is dipping into reserves etc to pay claims.

I think I read that OboobaCare mandates that health insurance companies maintain an 80 LAE, which is like mandating that their CEO’s poop Skittles for our enjoyment.

But why stop at health insurers? Why not mandate, for instance, that pharmacies just hand out rubberz and bc pills to all comers?

“What this country needs is a good $5 oil change.” I hope Ray LaHood is lurking.

Akzed on February 11, 2012 at 1:21 PM

contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.
nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Exactly how does that work? Will the insurer then force the woman to get a prescription for birth control pills and then check with her each morning to make sure she takes them?

Most of unattended pregnancies in this country are not because women don’t have ACCESS to birth control, it’s because they just don’t use it.

Which really makes me wonder about what the next step will be for the Obama admin when their desired outcome (fewer women getting pregnant) isn’t realized. Will they require that doctors hand out contraceptives to their parents during office visits, offer “incentives” to doctors who go along with it, and penalties for doctors that don’t? Will women just start receiving pills in the mail from their insurer? And, what’s next, “free” abortions, courtesy of your health insurer? God help us if this guy gets a second term.

sydneyjane on February 11, 2012 at 2:12 PM

contraception is free for insurers to give because it avoids them to pay for pregnancy costs.
nathor on February 10, 2012 at 5:19 PM

Blue Cross’s unofficial estimate was that it would cost $2.8 billion for the contraceptive/sterilization/abortifacient coverage

Ok, now this is tough.

On the one hand I can rely upon the quick estimated cost benefit analysis of a guy commenting on the internet.

On the other hand I can rely on the analysts paid to analyze costs and savings for one of the largest insurance companies on the planet.

So do I take nathor’s word and assume it’s a wash or even saving money; or Blue Cross and almost 3 billion in new costs?

This is a tricky one… give me some time to decide. I mean it’s a really close race here.

gekkobear on February 11, 2012 at 8:07 PM

President Barack Obama has jumped the shark taking on the Church of St. Peter:
The Proverbs, 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall.
.

philly_PA on February 12, 2012 at 8:41 AM

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