Lieutenant colonel breaks ranks: Afghanistan is a disaster, claims report

posted at 8:53 pm on February 6, 2012 by Allahpundit

Read it if you haven’t already followed the link from Drudge. His complaint is that military leaders from Petraeus on down aren’t leveling with the public about how bad things are on the ground, but this feels like a strange debate to have when the die on withdrawal has apparently already been cast. The White House claimed last week that Panetta’s comments about ending combat operations a year early were misunderstood, but here’s the NYT with a new report today about drawing down regular combat troops and offsetting their loss with a stronger presence of special forces to target Taliban units as circumstances require. The era of counterinsurgency is over, in other words, which means this report is less relevant as a catalyst for a change in policy than in the extent to which Obama will be able to spin the war as a victory when the withdrawals begin in earnest.

I saw the incredible difficulties any military force would have to pacify even a single area of any of those provinces; I heard many stories of how insurgents controlled virtually every piece of land beyond eyeshot of a U.S. or International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) base.

I saw little to no evidence the local governments were able to provide for the basic needs of the people. Some of the Afghan civilians I talked with said the people didn’t want to be connected to a predatory or incapable local government.

From time to time, I observed Afghan Security forces collude with the insurgency…

In all of the places I visited, the tactical situation was bad to abysmal. If the events I have described — and many, many more I could mention — had been in the first year of war, or even the third or fourth, one might be willing to believe that Afghanistan was just a hard fight, and we should stick it out. Yet these incidents all happened in the 10th year of war.

As the numbers depicting casualties and enemy violence indicate the absence of progress, so too did my observations of the tactical situation all over Afghanistan.

Plenty of anecdotes about Afghan troops’ haplessness and/or corruption at the link. The thing is, I’ve been reading news stories in that vein sporadically for years now. Davis would presumably say that that’s the point, that as the years roll on the same problems recur, but you don’t need his report to realize that. Look no further than the new NIE on Afghanistan, which the LA Times summarizes as warning that “security gains from an increase in American troops have been undercut by pervasive corruption, incompetent governance and Taliban fighters operating from neighboring Pakistan”. Or consider the bombshell NATO report based on detainee interrogations that was leaked just a few weeks ago describing “widespread collaboration between the insurgents and Afghan police and military,” in the BBC’s words, and concluding that the Taliban think they’ll be back in control of the country after the U.S. leaves. Davis’s claims are, unfortunately, old news. And while it’s true that 55 percent think things in Afghanistan were going very or fairly well as of last month, 56 percent nonetheless wanted the troops pulled ASAP rather than kept in place until the country has stabilized. What his report adds is a public note of dissent from within the ranks, but if you’ve been following the news, I don’t know how much extra weight that adds to the scale by now.


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Imperialism does. not. work. Its a legacy of a bygone era. We can no longer exterminate people the way we once did, we can no longer strike terror in the hearts by locking everyone up and establishing an Apartheid regime. We can not carpet bomb an entire country into submission anymore. Humanity has evolved past that.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:11 PM

Protecting national interests always works but can only work if the leadership is committed to winning…and this regime will do anything to avoid doing what is needed. Humanity has not evolved much at all, particularly in the Muslim world…what does a reference to apartheid have to do with any of this…What have we learned from both Iraq and Afganistan? As others have suggested, we cannot force democracy on people who are not willing to do the hard work…NATO, with a few rare exceptions, cannot be counted on and is waste of time…our policy should be if you get out of line we will make you pay but we’re not staying around to build schools and waste our national treasure trying to rehabilitate you.

ironmarshal on February 6, 2012 at 9:37 PM

Neither are you if you believe I was saying the Taliban has evolved. But do try again.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:23 PM

So are you saying that the taliban are sub-human or is there some other reason they are not included in the word humanity?

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:35 PM

Sultan as you know libfree lies and distorts. That is all. Oh and as Obama will toss him a bone(along with being black) then the stupid phuck will put up with Obama killing innocent Afghan, Pakistanis, you name it he will live with it. Just keep that check coming.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:37 PM

This whole sorry episode has so corrupted the general officer corp that if they directed the troops to be anymore shariah compliant they would have to order them all to convert to Islam.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 9:38 PM

Masih ad-Dajjal on February 6, 2012 at 9:25 PM

Buchanan went farther than that-HE claimed that Hitler ONLY decided to kill 6 million Jews after/because France and Britain declared war on Germany in response to Hitler’s invasion of Poland.
What effing BS!

annoyinglittletwerp on February 6, 2012 at 9:38 PM

The Hopey/Changey Superior Smart Powered *Scrotched Foreign Policy!!

*scrotched

Totally f*cked up beyond all repair

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Scrotched

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:38 PM

Why do you hate the troops?

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:23 PM

I don`t, I think they`re the best fighters in the world. They`re hands are tied and they`re being short changed by our political leaders. Thank you for your grade school level insult. :-P

ThePrez on February 6, 2012 at 9:38 PM

Protecting national interests always works but can only work if the leadership is committed to winning

ironmarshal on February 6, 2012 at 9:37 PM

Fair enough.

What is the national interest in Afghanistan?

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:39 PM

Libfree you are complicit in the murder of so many people and will vote for more of it …yeh sleep well. What an idiotic dupe….sell your soul dumbass.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:40 PM

Oops
========

White House:
**************

No NATO decision made to transition Afghan security in 2013;

Panetta comments referred to possibility, not decision

@Reuters Story
Submitted Feb. 2, 2012, 2:04 p.m.
http://www.breakingnews.com/topic/afghanistan

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM

Trial balloon got hit by flack I guess.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:35 PM

Because the utter reality of it all says so. After 10 plus f-ucking years it should have sunk in by now.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 9:36 PM

Well first, if you know so much about military affairs, why didn’t you volunteer to help the cause? And I’m not sure you could be more general in your response. Anyone could simply say in return it’s been a flawless success just because they say so.

Then feel free to go over and stop them. But don’t ask Americans to sacrifice their blood and treasure for people, even women, with whom they share no bond of citizenship.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:36 PM

Simmer down John. They will not ask you to go.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Libfree you have sold your soul…..you are complicit.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

thought the filter got me.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Our military’s hands were tied also in …, [pause for effect] Vietnam.

FerdtheMoonCat on February 6, 2012 at 9:42 PM

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:36 PM

Washed out of USMC bootcamp in the late ’80′s due to a coordination problem. Was PMRD and is too old now-but would enlist again if I could.
Son wants to join AROTC once he starts college this fall, Husband is a USMC vet who’s much older than I am.
You and I need to stick to subjects like baseball.

annoyinglittletwerp on February 6, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Simmer down John. They will not ask you to go.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

He’s been wound up since this morning in the “Near Majority Approves of Military Force Against Iran” thread.

cozmo on February 6, 2012 at 9:43 PM

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM
Trial balloon got hit by flack I guess.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Sultanofsam:Yup,and Penettas mouth ran away with himself again,
with the Isreal will atack Iran,verbal slippage,maybe
trial balloon,#2!

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:44 PM

Buchanan went farther than that-HE claimed that Hitler ONLY decided to kill 6 million Jews after/because France and Britain declared war on Germany in response to Hitler’s invasion of Poland.
What effing BS!

annoyinglittletwerp on February 6, 2012 at 9:38 PM

There’s a big difference between after and because.

In fact, the “Final Solution” didn’t become policy until Jan 1942, well after the declaration of war. It was not, AFAIK, in any way because of that declaration. Had Britain and France remained neutral, I’m quite sure the Nazi would have carried out the mass murders anyways.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:44 PM

Libfreeonothers….

You kill me. We are on a thread about Afghanistan and you speak of the world and its increasing humanity and then I point out that the Taliban is not humane and then you claim you did not mean them. Laughable. Are you on the right thread dimwit?

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:45 PM

As I said, we’ve evolved past that.

No you said humanity, not we, not the US, humanity.

I can’t help you if you absolutely refuse to read the words I write.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM

You should read the words you write.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:45 PM

So, you are now worried that Afghanistan is operating a Fifth Column in America.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:34 PM

The usual leftist-Islamist-fascist convergence is operating as a fifth column in this matter, true.

There is no shortage in bumbling fools like Ron Paul and Cindy Sheehan who spew Islamist anti-Western propaganda as if they were reading directly off Bin Laden’s talking points memo. Stormfront Nazis support the far left in this. And all of them LOVE Ron Paul. I wonder why.

Masih ad-Dajjal on February 6, 2012 at 9:45 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM
——————————————-

He’s been wound up since this morning in the “Near Majority Approves of Military Force Against Iran” thread.

cozmo on February 6, 2012 at 9:43 PM

cozmo:Kinda smacks of Wag the Dog type scenario,I wonder if Obama
would attack Iran,for higher poll numbers,or to get rid of
nukes!!

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:47 PM

Cripes.

BlaxPac on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Dimwit you did state things have evolved …read your own effin words tool Sheesh. Twist and turn. You’re as dishonest as they get . Why are you so dishonest?

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:26 PM

You have a reading comprehension problem, its sort of epic. Here’s my argument, but since its the 3rd time I’m making it I thought I’d try for a kind of fairy tale format:

Once upon a time there was The West, made up of rich and powerful countries. These countries were powerful and wealthy, but they lived on such tiny land and they’d plumb run out of essential goods and large quantities of arable land to crow expensive commodities like sugar, coffee, cocoa and tobacco. So they set off around the world and they found new lands, with plenty of land for large plantations, plenty of space to spread out, and plenty of precious gems and stones that could make a pioneering gent a wealthy man. There was only one teensy, weensy little problem. Lots of other people lived there, most of them were black, brown and all sorts of other shades that were different from the Westerners. And such poor sports! Most of them weren’t interested in giving up their lands or their gems to the Westerners. Sure they’d pass a pipe around with them and trade, but they were quite content to keep on living the way they always had. Well the West, sort of a stubborn bunch, they didn’t like that and decided in a brilliant moment of collective thought, that these other people were less than human, and could be dealt with accordingly.

And so came the enslaving and/or the killing and the amassing of scores and scores of wealth in the West’s coffers. Everything seemed to be going fine for the West, but as the earth made its inexorable ride around the sun, and the galaxy spun, time past and the West had new needs, less land and more people who demanded a certain way of living. “Off to India and Africa” they said, “but this time, lets try something new. Instead of the enslaving, quite a nasty business that, lets just set up soverign governments where other people already live. Oh, and a capital idea, lets make sure to *not* give them full citizenship rights. If they don’t like it? I suppose that’s possible, but the rumor is that we’ve got more military might than they do, so if there’s pesky uprising just bring out the muskets, shoot a few and then carry on your day, whistling a jaunty tune all the way.”

More time past, and the West started to get uncomfortable. It seemed, against all probability, that the people in its various territories and colonies had figured out a thing or two. Some of them organized themselves into militias and keeping them full of musket holes was getting to be expensive. Others had managed to acquit themselves in the self congratulatory language of the West and made stirring arguments that these colonies were full of “humans” and should be treated as such. And really, the West was getting tired. It just couldn’t be asked to keep on putting people in jail and or bombing them or doing whatever it needed to keep things in line. This thing called “human rights” sprang up and global codes of ethics began sweeping the globe as fast as slave ships once did.

But nothing on this planet dies easily, remnants of old ways find their way into the new ones. Lots of people in the West struggled with the new way of doing things. Sure they didn’t want to massacre whole populations again, but, well, couldn’t some of those formerly colonized people just keep on doing what we asked of them? Why some in the West have even been known to say. “Look I mean, its prudent that these people should listen to us, we do have lots of big guns still, more than they. And so, we figure, we’ll just prod them with our guns a bit, shoot in the air and make them some french fries or something and maybe they’ll be tricked into going along with our way of seeing the world. We don’t want to beat them or force them or kill them into submission, just persuade them. But with guns, but sort of not with guns. You know its all very confusing, but we’re trying to figure this thing out here and we’re kind of out of money so quit harassing us for details will you?!?”

And that is how the West came to be in a place where it wanted to act like an Empire, but no longer had the ability or willingness to actually be an Empire or even to call itself an Empire. It was a long period of confused and contradictory policymaking for the West. Here’s hoping, in the next chapter, the West’s leaders will figure out that the imperialism thing just isn’t going to work anymore. But I’m not hopeful.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

WALOC.

coldwarrior on February 6, 2012 at 9:50 PM

cozmo:Kinda smacks of Wag the Dog type scenario,I wonder if Obama
would attack Iran,for higher poll numbers,or to get rid of
nukes!!

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:47 PM

I’ll take curtain a Monty.

cozmo on February 6, 2012 at 9:50 PM

America should have a “kick-ass” mentality – If you mess with us, we will go into your country, kick your ass and get out. You can clean up the mess and learn to act right.

bloggless on February 6, 2012 at 9:17 PM

Yes, that would be better than the sign in Arabic on your backs that says “kick my ass”. And after ten years no one has thought to translate it. Maybe someone will have a Muslim aid translate it into something they want to hear.

BL@KBIRD on February 6, 2012 at 9:50 PM

This was all but guaranteed in 2009.

Petraeus (or was it his predecessor) presented Obama with 3 levels a surge needed for 3 levels of certainly in Victory. Obama dabbled for months before Petraeus came out publicly forcing him to make a decision. Obama negotiated down the lowest of the 3, and Petraeus acquiesced. Now the resulting slow motion surrender to the Taliban is not Obama’s fault, it’s Petraeus’s fault. Petraeus accepted the new policies, cheer-leaded them and presided over their implementation. He was out maneuvered and should have known better.

I don’t blame Obama. He’s an neo-anti-colonial progressive who’s behaving as expected. I blame the Petraeus and the Republicans in general who danced with Obama in a daze and should have known better. This is an example of why I’m not a Republican.

elfman on February 6, 2012 at 9:50 PM

But I’m not hopeful.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

libfreeordie:Thats alot of Rabble Rousing!!
(sarc)

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:50 PM

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:47 PM
I’ll take curtain a Monty.

cozmo on February 6, 2012 at 9:50 PM

cozmo:Lol!

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:51 PM

Simmer down John. They will not ask you to go.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Not my blood (thank God). But my treasure. And some of my family’s blood, possibly.

All for… what? To stop a bunch of tribal leaders who, admittedly, forked up badly when they didn’t hand over bin Laden to us, from trying to take back over the worst patch of real estate on the face of the Earth?

They don’t have visions of bringing down the infidel West. Christ, I suspect they couldn’t find the infidel West on a map! All they want is us gone, so they are free to behave like barbarians in their own barbaric land.

100 divisions, there for 100 years, couldn’t change Afghanistan from the tribal backwater it is, rousing speeches from GWB about democratizing the globe and ridding the world of tyranny notwithstanding.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:51 PM

Its NOT about national security. It is about sacrificing young men and women at the altar of defense contractors and foolish pride.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:25 PM

(Phone Rings)

OPERATOR: “HELLO, DEMOCRAT PARTY CENTRAL CASTING.”

DEL DOLEMONTE: “THANKS FOR SENDING IT OVER. IT’S JUST WHAT I ORDERED!”

Sorry, Kid, but Halliburton is Toxic to the Left now. O’bama gave them a No-Bid Contract in 2009, and George Soros bought $62 million worth of the company in 2006.

F-

Del Dolemonte on February 6, 2012 at 9:52 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

He’s been wound up since this morning in the “Near Majority Approves of Military Force Against Iran” thread.

cozmo on February 6, 2012 at 9:43 PM

Oh good point. I did not consider that. John, they’ll do that with planes only probably. They still won’t need you.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:53 PM

I’m voting for the federal bench. I can still oppose imperialist foreign policy if I vote for Obama. Just like you’ll continue to disagree with Mitt Romney when you vote for him.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:30 PM

Mitt Romney never sent troops off to fight and potentially die, and certainly never made a campaign promise to end the wars and instead surge troops and start new wars. PBHO did. You voted for that and you’ll vote for it again.

I know I know, you will now attempt to equate sending troops off to war with auto company bailouts or something.

Bishop on February 6, 2012 at 9:53 PM

There is nothing to win in Afghanistan. It’s a booby prize awarded by conmen.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 9:54 PM

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:26 PM

You have a reading comprehension problem, its sort of epic. Here’s my argument, but since its the 3rd time I’m making it I thought I’d try for a kind of fairy tale format:

saulalinskyjunior on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Del Dolemonte on February 6, 2012 at 9:55 PM

Americans have absolutely no reason to support the war machine anymore. Its NOT about national security. It is about sacrificing young men and women at the altar of defense contractors and foolish pride.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:25 PM

With which Obama is more than happy to comply with also.

DevilsPrinciple on February 6, 2012 at 9:55 PM

The usual leftist-Islamist-fascist convergence is operating as a fifth column in this matter, true.

Masih ad-Dajjal on February 6, 2012 at 9:45 PM

The John Birch Society called. They were wondering why they were running so light on conspiracy theories, and wondered if you had made off with some of them.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:56 PM

What is the national interest in Afghanistan?

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:39 PM

Remember that 13,000 man Moon Colony Newty wants to build. Afghanistan is more worthless but much closer. We will just rename it Moon Base Afghanistan and then they can apply for statehood.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 9:57 PM

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

You wasted a ton of time on that drivel….

As I said, we’ve evolved past that.

No you said humanity, not we, not the US, humanity.

I can’t help you if you absolutely refuse to read the words I write.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:29 PM

You should read the words you write.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:45 PM

Nuff said.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:57 PM

Libfreeonothers YOU are complicit. I hope you have the nightmares you deserve.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM

Simmer down John. They will not ask you to go.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:41 PM

Maybe he thinks theres a draft or something.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM

(Fake)Press Release DNC
Feb 6 2012
*************

We have decided to throw Afghanistan,under the bus,in order to
focus like a laser,on our Domestic Agenda at home!

So,in closing,we will re-adjust,the Holy War abroad,and
continue our Social Justice Crusade back at home.

——————————————————DNC

canopfor on February 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM

We are NOT an empire. Our “empire” died in the middle of the last century. We have attacked only when we perceived that our interests were threatened with the exception of Libya a few months ago. Radical Islam is a mortal threat to us. Believing that the oceans will protect from the rest of the world is ridiculous. How did that work out for the Indians?

FirelandsO3 on February 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM

Our military’s hands were tied also in …, [pause for effect] Vietnam.

FerdtheMoonCat on February 6, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Korea also.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:59 PM

With which Obama is more than happy to comply with also.

DevilsPrinciple on February 6, 2012 at 9:55 PM

Quite right, lets oppose imperialism together.

Sorry, Kid, but Halliburton is Toxic to the Left now. O’bama gave them a No-Bid Contract in 2009, and George Soros bought $62 million worth of the company in 2006.

F-

Del Dolemonte on February 6, 2012 at 9:52 PM

Quite right, but you still love to frame me as a Democrat. Those facts do nothing to oppose the argument you’re responding to.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:59 PM

Oh good point. I did not consider that. John, they’ll do that with planes only probably.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 9:53 PM

Of course they will. They’re going to bomb Iran’s nuclear program out of existence, without having to muddy their boots.

Thought you were a combat soldier. That’s an answer I’d expect from MISO.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:00 PM

Libfreeonothers….hmmm the Drone President kills so many and without trial yet you will still vote for him. Are you really that much of a puke? Bought like any whore yet you have sold not only your soul but your humanity.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:00 PM

Libfreeonothers YOU are complicit. I hope you have the nightmares you deserve.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM

I dont even think you know what you mean here.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

Maybe he thinks theres a draft or something.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 9:58 PM

Oh, I’m waiting for the money to dry up before that one starts…

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

Not my blood (thank God). But my treasure. And some of my family’s blood, possibly.

Your comment more appropriately should have stopped here. It is the extemet of your knowledge on the issue.

All for… what? To stop a bunch of tribal leaders who, admittedly, forked up badly when they didn’t hand over bin Laden to us, from trying to take back over the worst patch of real estate on the face of the Earth?

Like this. How would you know? Do you suspect they feel this way?

They don’t have visions of bringing down the infidel West. Christ, I suspect they couldn’t find the infidel West on a map! All they want is us gone, so they are free to behave like barbarians in their own barbaric land.

You only suspect.

100 divisions, there for 100 years, couldn’t change Afghanistan from the tribal backwater it is, rousing speeches from GWB about democratizing the globe and ridding the world of tyranny notwithstanding.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 9:51 PM

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t scare me as much as knowing there are people in our society who are completely ignorant to the threat of militant Islam and terrorism. Ignorant and invested in a commitment to doing nothing about it for whatever motivation.

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t make it go away.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

Plenty of anecdotes about Afghan troops’ haplessness and/or corruption at the link.

Do we really need a link to tell us that they are Muslims?

logis on February 6, 2012 at 10:02 PM

Quite right, but you still love to frame me as a Democrat.
libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:59 PM

You’re just another tool that wants to pretend you are independent of the Democrats.It is just and act and not a very good one.Now you go ahead and vote for Obama who cannot kill enough with our drones. You have blood on your hands.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:02 PM

Libfreeonothers….hmmm the Drone President kills so many and without trial yet you will still vote for him. Are you really that much of a puke? Bought like any whore yet you have sold not only your soul but your humanity.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:00 PM

You’re really getting abusive. Did my story upset you? Perhaps some warm milk would help. As is always the case in these arguments, once you don’t have anything substantive to say you start mind reading and weirdly propositioning me as a sex worker (ew). My dearest of all darling CWs, you don’t seem to get it. I’m part of the anti-war left, I’ve marched, I’ve rallied, I’ve come on conservative blogs and said “imperialism doesn’t work.” But I’m also aware that we live in a two party system and in order to participate on the presidential level I have to make moral compromises. Every voter does this. How on earth am I a “whore” but conservatives who voted for John McCain aren’t? Under your logic what voter is not a “whore” we all compromise some of our beliefs. I am ambivalent about Obama. I won’t be picking up a phone, writing a check, knocking on a door, or even encouraging anyone I know to vote for him. I’m pulling the lever, it is what it is.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t make it go away.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

That’s the thread winner hawk.

tencole on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

I dont even think you know what you mean here.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

You have a severe lack of comprehension of even YOUR OWN Effing posts. How stupid are you? You support Obama….the killing he does is on you . You are complicit and do I need to define complicit? Are you really that ignorant? Go ahead pretend like it does not matter . You’re a good toady. Obama counts on you.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Thought you were a combat soldier. That’s an answer I’d expect from MISO.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:00 PM

You’re the big combat and war tactics expert. I don’t want to try to put anything past you.

You’ll have to tell me what a MISO is.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Did someone say draught? I’ll take a tall.

Oh….draft.

Bishop on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Until Islam makes enough Muslims sick of it, Islamic countries are h0peless ~by Koranic decree.

Bomb them from afar if they make trouble for us, and let them learn the hard lesson about the irremediable malignancy of Islam for themselves.

No schools, no roads, no doctors, no helping Islam survive itself.

profitsbeard on February 6, 2012 at 10:06 PM

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that things have been bad in Afghanistan for 3 years. If there was a Republican President you can bet it would be front and center every day in major media. All you have to do is look at the American casualty figures. The number of KIA spiked in 2009 to well over 300 then exploded again to almost 500 in 2010. Last year was still over 400. This January was the 2nd deadliest start to the year of the entire war. We’ll see how things go when the weather gets better and troop levels are reduced.

Wigglesworth on February 6, 2012 at 10:06 PM

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:02 PM

Now you’re doubting that registered independents even exist. And I’m doubting your sanity.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:06 PM

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

Wow! The ignorance in that one-dimensional narrative is so overwhelming that I wouldn’t even know where to start arguing with it. May I suggest the book Guns, Germs & Steel so you have at least a smidgen of perspective that wasn’t force fed at a government school. It is just one theory and I can’t say I agree with its entirety but it certainly would give you at least another pony to enter in the show.

Here’s a link on PBS so it may be more spoon fed and comfy: http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/

deepdiver on February 6, 2012 at 10:07 PM

Every voter does this. How on earth am I a “whore” but conservatives who voted for John McCain aren’t? Under your logic what voter is not a “whore” we all compromise some of our beliefs. I am ambivalent about Obama. I won’t be picking up a phone, writing a check, knocking on a door, or even encouraging anyone I know to vote for him. I’m pulling the lever, it is what it is.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

So if McCain voters are whores would that make you not a whore? What a fail at logic. Good to see your compromising when it comes to human life just so you can get yours.

You go ahead and rationalize your support of Obama…have a blast. Gitmo and rendition…yours as well.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:08 PM

Are you talking about the new PsychOps term? Those guys are combat troops too bub.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:08 PM

I think you were going for FOBBIT?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:08 PM

Now you’re doubting that registered independents even exist. And I’m doubting your sanity.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:06 PM

Did I say all independents? Really? Where did I say that? Do you lack comprehension skills or are you being dishonest again? I suspect both.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:09 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

Like this. How would you know? Do you suspect they feel this way?

That it’s the most worthless patch of real estate in the world? No, they call it home. But I can take a look at economic output, strategic resources, ability to project external power.

And on all counts, Afghanistan leaves skid marks on the bowel.

But apparently such quantifiable measures of American interest mean nothing to you.

Way to make policy.

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t scare me as much as knowing there are people in our society who are completely ignorant to the threat of militant Islam and terrorism

Be sure to check under your bed for the jihadists before you go to sleep.

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t make it go away.

And staying doesn’t make it any better. It only makes us poorer.

And deader. Something I would think you might actually give a damn about.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:09 PM

deepdiver on February 6, 2012 at 10:07 PM

I’ve read that book and many others on imperialism. The point of my satirical little narrative was to focus purely on the move from the dehumanization of the other, which justified the use of coercive violence to maintain authority, to the gradual development of “human rights” ethics on a global scale which have made older means of imperialism unworkable. Plus I wanted to amuse myself. But that isn’t meant to be seen as anything like a comprehensive history of Western Civ.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:12 PM

No, imperialism doesn’t work when half of the ‘imperialists’ are aiding the enemy.

HopeHeFails on February 6, 2012 at 10:12 PM

the imperialism thing just isn’t going to work anymore.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 9:48 PM

If we’re imperialists, then we’re really lousy at it. We spend all this blood and treasure, and don’t ask for anything in return.

John the Libertarian on February 6, 2012 at 10:13 PM

Plus I wanted to amuse myself.
libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:12 PM

Amuse yourself and read about the executions of thousands by Obama.

Funny eh dimwit?

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:13 PM

If we’re imperialists, then we’re really lousy at it. We spend all this blood and treasure, and don’t ask for anything in return.

John the Libertarian on February 6, 2012 at 10:13 PM

Libfreeonothers is all about dishonest propaganda. Look at how he twisted my comment about him claiming to be an independent. That is all he has. Just another tool. Obama loves his type.

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:14 PM

Gee, whodathunkit?

Cleombrotus on February 6, 2012 at 10:15 PM

You’re the big combat and war tactics expert. I don’t want to try to put anything past you.

You’ll have to tell me what a MISO is.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:05 PM

Military Info Support Ops.

And I’m not an expert in tactics. I leave that to the pros. I spent my time studying foreign policy and politics. And as such, I once again ask: What exactly are our national interests in Afghanistan? The Taliban is nothing to us.

So… what?

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:15 PM

If we’re imperialists, then we’re really lousy at it. We spend all this blood and treasure, and don’t ask for anything in return.

John the Libertarian on February 6, 2012 at 10:13 PM

Thats exactly my point.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:16 PM

CW on February 6, 2012 at 10:09 PM

Oh only left leaning independents don’t exist then? You’re getting more and more unhinged. Shall I put on some soothing mint tea for you? I worry.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:17 PM

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t scare me as much as knowing there are people in our society who are completely ignorant to the threat of militant Islam

The threat is Islam. Not “militant” Islam, nor ‘Islamism”, nor “radical” Islam, but I-S-L-A-M.

Leaving Afghanistan doesn’t make it go away.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:01 PM

Not doing any good either, so why pay such a price for a Bridge to Nowhere.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:19 PM

I think we cleaned out some training camps in the beginning and there were some improvements. We got some top terrorists, but I have never felt we should have stayed long. Iraq maybe was an exception. We actually liberated something. But again, it’s so easy to get bogged down in these nations when there is no clear objective and we are fighting with our hands tied.

JellyToast on February 6, 2012 at 10:21 PM

I read somewhere, and I can’t even remember what book/article, that Ghengis Kahn was the last one to defeat Afghanistan and that was simply because he was more brutal than their most brutal tribal customs. Reading about Afghan tribal customs in the “wilderness regions” for lack of a better general term, is enlightening, shocking and leads only to the conclusion that short of a burnt earth genocide campaign that we can’t win there. It is on this basis that I was opposed to the war in the first place and have remained opposed throughout.

We the American people do not have the will or stomach to do what would be necessary to “win” in Afghanistan nor are we willing, with a nuclear Pakistan next door, to do what would be necessary to even truly stabilize the country to the point that we quit bleeding over it physically, emotionally, politically and financially.

While we reach the conclusion very differently, I do agree with the lefties and Paulians that the military action in Afghanistan (at least as carried out) was and is a fool’s errand. I have hoped for a decade to be proved wrong, but I see no sign of that on the horizon regardless of troop surges, power plants built, or nation building attempted.

deepdiver on February 6, 2012 at 10:22 PM

And staying doesn’t make it any better. It only makes us poorer.

And deader. Something I would think you might actually give a damn about.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:09 PM

First, you either dead or not. You can’t be it to any degree without being completely. Second, my guess is that the money is really your biggest concern. It’s a condition of every point you make on the war. Last, I’ve never had a single problem with a person having an opinion about the war. I never thought or stated we should stay there indefinitely. Given the reduction of forces because of the budget, this administrations ROE and mishandling, I would think sooner is better than later. What it is that makes me offer my opinion with passion is the characterization of failure and insinuation of incompetence that you cannot have this repeated discussion without. You will never find me stating some absolute in reference to war successes like you and your kind like to assert about it’s failures. We were told to go. Even by your guy. We fought and still fight like your life depends on it.

If you guys have lost your nerve, fine. Let the record show your military didn’t.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM

Just about four years ago I set out on Obama’s Afghanistan road
Seekin’ my fame and glory, lookin’ to turn the Mullah’s Hemorrhoid into a pot of gold
Well, things got bad, and things got worse, I guess you will know the tune
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again

Flew in yet again on a big plane, I hope I’ll be in one piece flyin out when I go.
I was yet again just passin’ through, must now be yet another 3 tours or more.
Running out of time and patience [Not to complain but whatever the hell happened to my youth?!"], looks like they took still more of my friends.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.

The Hope and Change man in the White House said yet again I was on my way.
Somewhere I lost his connection, he ran out of words to say.
I came into Kabul, yet another one year stand, looks like the plans fell through yet again
Oh ! lord, stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.

Mmmm…
If I only had a woman ["Hey Jack, do you remember what a woman is?"], for evry Obama tour Ive done.
And evry time Ive had to fight while cheered on by CINO’s, Obama sat back home empowering Islam and power drunk.
You know, Id like to catch the next plane back to where Im from.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.
Oh ! lord, Im stuck in Obama’s Afghanistan yet again.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM

Let the record show your military didn’t.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM

If everyone acknowledges that will you be satisfied and we can just go home. It is *amazing* how much of our foreign policy is based upon masculine pride.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:24 PM

The threat is Islam. Not “militant” Islam, nor ‘Islamism”, nor “radical” Islam, but I-S-L-A-M.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:19 PM

I have Middle Eastern friends and men I’ve fought with who would disagree. There are moderates and seculars in their societies like there are in ours.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM

I have hoped for a decade to be proved wrong, but I see no sign of that on the horizon regardless of troop surges, power plants built, or nation building attempted.

deepdiver on February 6, 2012 at 10:22 PM

You may be able to rent an Afghan, but you can’t buy him and he will never love you. His heart belongs to Mohammad and Mohammad says to hate you.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:27 PM

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:15 PM

Why would you use that to infer someone isn’t a front-line troop? Again, did you mean FOBBIT? That’s what we’d say. Or an old guy might say REMF.

Whatever. Believe what you want about what level I was involved. If I was peeling potatoes at the Aviation DFAC on Longstreet, I’d still have the same opinion.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:30 PM

If everyone acknowledges that will you be satisfied and we can just go home. It is *amazing* how much of our foreign policy is based upon masculine pride.

libfreeordie on February 6, 2012 at 10:24 PM

Are you really that obtuse?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:31 PM

You may be able to rent an Afghan, but you can’t buy him and he will never love you. His heart belongs to Mohammad and Mohammad says to hate you.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:27 PM

I was expecting some Twain sooner or later.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:32 PM

I think we cleaned out some training camps in the beginning and there were some improvements. We got some top terrorists, but I have never felt we should have stayed long. Iraq maybe was an exception. We actually liberated something. But again, it’s so easy to get bogged down in these nations when there is no clear objective and we are fighting with our hands tied.

JellyToast on February 6, 2012 at 10:21 PM

Ayup. Now the best we can hope for is that we tell the mayor of Kabul and the other tribal leaders that after we leave if we see any taliban anywhere near a position of power we will drone the hell out of him, his friends, and anyone that helped or let him get to that position without putting up a fight. Wont happen though under Obama.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 10:33 PM

There are moderates and seculars in their societies like there are in ours.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM

No good muslim can be moderate and a secular muslim is absurd.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:34 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM

No good muslim can be moderate and a secular muslim is absurd.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:34 PM

Did you ever post the link about the British Soldiers head?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:35 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM

Second, my guess is that the money is really your biggest concern.

It’s a big concern. It’s always a big concern, especially when talking about war. Because if rule number one of war is that men die, rule number two is you have to pay the ones who don’t.

But it’s not just the money. And it’s not just the blood. Prolonged war does bad things to a national psyche. You are, I think, old enough to remember what happened to this country as a result of Viet Nam. Do you really think this country will fare any better as a result of 10+ years of this war?

What it is that makes me offer my opinion with passion is the characterization of failure and insinuation of incompetence that you cannot have this repeated discussion without

There has been failure, and there has been incompetence. Aplenty.

But I don’t think that there has been any on the part of the professional military… or at least not any more than the standard level of incompetence you are going to find among individuals within a large organization.

The boys in green did their jobs in both Af-Pak and in Iraq. They stood in the capital and raised the flag.

Hurrah!!

But no matter how brilliantly our military performed (and I’m still pretty impressed, particularly with Iraq), if you start off with a flawed policy, the policy will fail, no matter how well the plan is executed. And the idea of democratizing the Middle East, and ending tyranny around the globe, as outlined in GWB’s Second Inaugural (thus pretty much making it policy), was insane.

The military killed people, broke stuff, and seized enemy capitals as well as we could ever ask of them. When we ask them to do more, or do so in pursuit of ethereal sillinesses like we have for most of the last ten years, we set our nation on a course for decline.

If you guys have lost your nerve, fine. Let the record show your military didn’t.

So noted.

JohnGalt23 on February 6, 2012 at 10:37 PM

Why would you use that to infer someone isn’t a front-line troop?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:30 PM

Maybe, since he knows your in the military he couldnt get away with calling you a chickenhawk.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 10:40 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:25 PM

No good muslim can be moderate and a secular muslim is absurd.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:34 PM

You’re just wrong. I know many people in Islamic Societies that more accepting of my Christianity than quite a few of the people who comment here. And I know many who simply are non-believers. You’re wrong.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:40 PM

I was expecting some Twain sooner or later.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:32 PM

Well looks like it will have to be later then.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:41 PM

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:30 PM

Maybe, since he knows your in the military he couldnt get away with calling you a chickenhawk.

Sultanofsham on February 6, 2012 at 10:40 PM

He has called me a chickenhawk, flyboy, idiot and more. Not sure why he’d hold back tonight.

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:41 PM

Are you really that obtuse?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:31 PM

Unfortunately, he ain’t the only one. And they are too closed minded to change.

cozmo on February 6, 2012 at 10:42 PM

The war in Afghanistan is not worthy of the men and women doing the heavy lifting when the strategy is not to lose and like a football game, the time is limited. The need to come home as soon as practical. And then when Obama is no longer the CIC, the Republican is to blame for it all. But until these troopers can fight with all they have get them the he__ out of there.

democratsarefools on February 6, 2012 at 10:42 PM

Hawkdriver, your problem is that you are trying to argue with people whose concept of war is merely theoretical. They can read books, study papers, or even see a movie or two, but they do not understand what it entails, whether it be combat or support. This allows them to be glib or snarky or impose whatever social experiment which occurs to them without any awareness of its consequences. Good luck to you, but I don’t think you can break through their wall of ignorance.

FirelandsO3 on February 6, 2012 at 10:43 PM

And I know many who simply are non-believers.

Then clearly they are not muslims. Or they are good lairs. One or the other.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:43 PM

that “are” more

Well looks like it will have to be later then.

VorDaj on February 6, 2012 at 10:41 PM

Don’t do it on my account. Or your idiotic songs. You didn’t spend a lot of time on that did you?

hawkdriver on February 6, 2012 at 10:43 PM

This is all the fault of the corpseman.
They have acted stupidly for 10 years.

KOOLAID2 on February 6, 2012 at 10:44 PM

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