Top Susan G. Komen official resigns over decision to cut Planned Parenthood funding

posted at 5:25 pm on February 2, 2012 by Tina Korbe

The drama continues to deepen.

When the board of directors of the Susan G. Komen Foundation decided to halt funding to notorious abortion provider Planned Parenthood, abortion activists launched an informal investigation. Something sinister was happening here; some pro-life plague had to have infiltrated Komen. They pinned their attention on Komen’s relatively new VP, Karen Handel, an admittedly pro-life former Republican candidate for the governor of Georgia. They pointed out that the announcement of Republican Rep. Cliff Stearns’ investigation into Planned Parenthood preceded Komen’s revision of its grant eligibility criteria, which now excludes any organization under investigation by local, state or national government. From that, they concluded that Komen tweaked its criteria precisely to exclude Planned Parenthood. Komen made the rule to exclude under-investigation organizations just because Planned Parenthood was under investigation.

Now, critics of Komen’s decision bring up almost gleefully the resignation of Komen’s top public health official, Mollie Williams. While Williams herself has not said whether her resignation was a reaction to Komen’s decision, National Journal reports that her former senior communications adviser says she left because she just couldn’t stay at an organization that would bow to pressure from the anti-abortion right. Further confirmation that Komen’s decision was politically motivated!

OK, I say. Let’s say it was. Let’s say Komen decided to drop funding to PP because they didn’t want a penny of the money they work so creatively to raise to go to an organization that also provides abortions. Komen officials knew Komen grant money was earmarked by Planned Parenthood expressly for cancer screenings, but they also knew that any dollar Planned Parenthood didn’t have to come up with itself for a cancer screening was a dollar the organization could put toward an abortion instead. Komen officials didn’t want to make abortion any easier or more available than it already is.

So what? Does that lessen the nobility of Komen’s mission to fight breast cancer? Komen did have something to gain by bowing to pro-life pressure — credibility as an organization exclusively dedicated to the eradication of breast cancer and as an organization uniquely poised to receive donations from pro-choice and pro-life donors who, alike, want to eliminate a silent killer of women.

Do the very same folks who say that cancer doesn’t care whether you’re pro-choice or pro-life care whether a cancer-fighting organization is pro-choice or pro-life? Apparently, they do. Even liberal senators want in on the act of criticizing Komen: The Washington Post’s Greg Sargent reports that two dozen senators have written a letter to Komen’s directors to ask them to reconsider the Planned Parenthood decision. If all these critics were pleading with Komen just to ensure that the women who in the past have turned to Planned Parenthood for Komen-funded cancer screenings will still have access to those services some other way, then I would understand. But they’re not; they’re explicitly pleading with Komen to fund Planned Parenthood, as though PP is the only organization that can use Komen’s money to provide low-income women with life-saving services.

This decision has caused a stir for one reason and one reason only: It has revealed that it is possible to advocate for “women’s health” without advocating for “abortion rights.” Do abortion rights activists now want to admit by their disowning of Komen that they don’t actually care about other aspects of women’s health? Or might they admit that an organization focused solely on the prevention and treatment of breast cancer need not donate to an organization that is far less focused in its mission — and even promotes procedures that some consider harmful to women — to prove its “women’s health” credentials?


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I buried a child. She was only 6 months old. She died in a day care center back in the really early 90′s. When I found out I was pregnant, I went to PP for an ultrasound because I was uninsured. They thought I was there to abort

Key I am so sorry for you loss. When I was a teenager, I went to a Planned Parenthood with two friends. Both wanted pregnancy test and both were pregnant. One wanted to keep their baby; the other wanted an abortion. They couldn’t get the one that wanted to keep the baby out of the office fast enough. They offered no referrals and no help, but spent an hour with the one who thought she wanted an abortion. They don’t care about women. It is the bottom line for them. I became anti-abortion mill that day!

melle1228 on February 2, 2012 at 7:31 PM

That’s all you care about is the campaign contributions; you don’t care if an abortion clinic regularly kills black women as long as they give to the Obama Party and to Barack Obama.

northdallasthirty on February 2, 2012 at 6:08 PM

Improved. And maybe exclusively the reason.

platypus on February 2, 2012 at 7:36 PM

Deanna, this is the part you excerpted from me:

There’s no evidence legal abortion is more dangerous than childbirth: it is in fact less dangerous, at least physically. I wish it were otherwise (I think it’s preconceived murder and I support the death penalty), but no. It actually is safer.

Yet you first wrote this:

Abortions have been linked to uterine cancer and at least one study links them to breast cancer.

The main post itself said this:

Or might they admit that an organization focused solely on the prevention and treatment of breast cancer need not donate to an organization that is far less focused in its mission — and even promotes procedures that some consider harmful to women — to prove its “women’s health” credentials?

And then you write this?

Stick to the topic.

Deanna on February 2, 2012

The main post talked about it and you commented about abortion having risks to the mother. I posted that abortion has less risks than childbirth in the part you yourself excerpted!

You’re being ridiculous — completely ridiculous.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 7:39 PM

I get a kick out of watching pro-abortion people shriek that Komen has hurt women by pulling funding from Planned Parenthood in the same breath that they vow not to donate to Komen anymore, cuz, ya know, stopping donations to Komen won’t hurt women at all.

clearbluesky on February 2, 2012 at 6:51 PM

I wish I could “get a kick out of it.” Instead, it makes want to do some kicking you-know-where in the hopes it could knock some sense into their brains, since that’s what they’re thinking with is located.

L.N. Smithee on February 2, 2012 at 7:40 PM

Koman did the right thing. They were not getting millions in donations because of their ties to Planned Parenthood.

PP has become little more than an abortion mill. With annual profits of a billion dollars, the amount that they spend on regular GYN exams is miniscule compared to their money maker, abortion.

I will give to Koman now. I stopped several years ago when I found out about their connection to PP.

fight like a girl on February 2, 2012 at 7:42 PM

Take care Key West. Your insights were always worth taking the time to consider.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 7:43 PM

Hasn’t research shown some kind of link between abortion and breast cancer? I recall something along those lines. The Komen foundation should just go with that — and watch the pro-abortion heads really explode. They could say it’s like the American Cancer Society partnering with cigarette manufacturers. Oh my. The hysteria would be fun.

Rational Thought on February 2, 2012 at 6:43 PM

Please excuse my schadenboner…

Mr. Prodigy on February 2, 2012 at 7:44 PM

You don’t kill your babies.

Key West Reader on February 2, 2012 at 7:44 PM

Take care Key West. Your insights were always worth taking the time to consider.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 7:43 PM

Thanks, Hawk.

I know when class is dismissed.

Point taken.

Key West Reader on February 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM

Both of these organizations suck. Komen is a huge organization that does nothing to fight cancer except waste the money in their massive bureaucracy and PP is just there to hire womyn’s and gender study majors as consultants. If you really want to cure cancer donate money to a major university that does actual research.

legalimmigrant on February 2, 2012 at 7:48 PM

These pro-abortion types are absolutely sick. They weep over the death of a cat, or a dog, or a lion in Africa, but could care less about a young child murdered. Pictures of a fetus in the womb are well documented, and very quickly begin to look human after conception. Don’t tell me that isn’t life. Freaking psychopaths.

This world makes no sense. My wife and I can’t have children. We are looking into adoption but the process is so horribly expensive, even more overseas, and yet everyday thousands of children are killed in the womb. What is it with liberal groups and children? They say it’s all about the children, but their actions show otherwise. God can’t like this at all.

gator70 on February 2, 2012 at 7:49 PM

I am going to make one parting statement.

I buried a child. She was only 6 months old. She died in a day care center back in the really early 90′s. When I found out I was pregnant, I went to PP for an ultrasound because I was uninsured. They thought I was there to abort. They were WRONG. That wasn’t before they told me how easy it would be. Just a vacuum and a hose. The ‘fetus’ would feel nothing. I would feel nothing. Just abort the child; it’s all for the better.

Well, that child is now 17 years old, is my pride and joy and delivers more joy each day he is alive.

Don’t foncuse this with the time I was 19 years old and went for an annual. They thought I was there for an abortion. They had no facility for a general exam.

No matter how you slice and dice an unborn baby, Planned Parenthood will show you how to do it.

………

That’s my last comment on Hot Air.

Best regards to all,
L

Key West Reader on February 2, 2012 at 7:27 PM

You misunderstood me, Key. Your voice needs to be here with the others
We might not always agree, but your voice and your past lends perspective to the discussion.
On abortion, we are on the same page. Don’t kill your babies. There are many out there that cannot conceive that would love them for you.

BedBug on February 2, 2012 at 7:51 PM

My entire family is Christian, my entire family is pro-choice and we’re not the only ones. Thankfully our relationship to Christ is between us and individuals and the Lord and isn’t really up for debate, discussion or investigation by others.

libfreeordie on February 2, 2012 at 6:10 PM

Your family is not Christian. You cannot be for abortion, AND Christian.

It is INTRINSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Your relationship is NOT with Christ.

Your relationship is actually with that friend of utilitarianism and selfishness….that certain….fallen angel.

Pretend all you want to FEEL GOOD.

You are NOT GOOD and NOT Christian when you believe it is OK to murder an unborn child for convenience.

KirknBurker on February 2, 2012 at 7:51 PM

It was a strange partnership anyway. One focused on the preservation of life, the other focused on destroying it.

TfromV on February 2, 2012 at 7:51 PM

Breast Cancer Research is not abortion. Why should PP presume any relationship with Komen? PP is a not for profit or so they say, they should be doing breast screening for free, or with money from their donors. They are interested in women’s marketing to sell abortion, not because of breast cancer. They want to hide behind Komen as an endorsement, and Komen is not interested in being used to justify their reputation.

Fleuries on February 2, 2012 at 7:52 PM

My entire family is Christian, my entire family is pro-choice and we’re not the only ones. Thankfully our relationship to Christ is between us and individuals and the Lord and isn’t really up for debate, discussion or investigation by others.

libfreeordie on February 2, 2012 at 6:10 PM

I can imagine the same type of people making rationalizations for why their families supported slavery or segregation.

Pretty sick.

tetriskid on February 2, 2012 at 7:58 PM

Donations to Komen up 100% in two days! PP pulled in $400K as well, which is fine because people KNOW what they’re donating for then.

michaelo on February 2, 2012 at 8:02 PM

“You cannot be for abortion, AND Christian.”

Why not?

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Psalm 137:9
How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

KJV, Numbers 31

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. “Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.”

18″But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

Yay. I’m glad the Bible is here to provide us moral guidance in this situation.

(Maybe abortion is wrong because it reduces the supply of virgins to marry and sex after killing their family …? That kind of sort of makes sense.)

I oppose abortion. Precisely because people only have one life and should be able to decide what to do with. To pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness in their own way.

Of course, most of you know you only have one life, but part of you is religious because this is a terrifying thought, especially for our loved ones. I understand that.

Anyway, many Christians are pro-life. Cool. I welcome your support. Even if being pro-life makes no sense from a Christian perspective, since people grow up and risk massive odds of corruption and hell, vs. dying while truly innocent (in the womb no less!) and facing no suck risk.

If Christianity was true, I’d be completely pro-abortion for everybody in every circumstance. But because I’m an atheist, I realize one life is all I or any child gets.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:03 PM

*such

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:04 PM

“I can imagine the same type of people making rationalizations for why their families supported slavery or segregation.”

Again, as an atheist, I agree.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:06 PM

If Komen center don’t want to support abortionist who cares. We live in America and that is their right. This is their center and if you don’t want like it too bad. Stop hating on people because they don’t share your point of view. Get over it and learn your place.

greenstew98 on February 2, 2012 at 8:07 PM

Just wait the MSM , will start talking about that SGK is puting to much money in adm. cost and not to research. They left the farm must destroy.

renowebb on February 2, 2012 at 8:08 PM

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/02/02/Planned-Parenthood-donations-swell/UPI-16641328220353/

libfreeordie on February 2, 2012 at 6:03 PM

Celebrating Murder Inc’s increase in donations. Sickening.

My entire family is Christian, my entire family is pro-choice and we’re not the only ones. Thankfully our relationship to Christ is between us and individuals and the Lord and isn’t really up for debate, discussion or investigation by others.

libfreeordie on February 2, 2012 at 6:10 PM

Your entire family is NOT Christan and neither are you.

Raquel Pinkbullet on February 2, 2012 at 8:10 PM

Thanks, Hawk.

I know when class is dismissed.

Point taken.

Key West Reader on February 2, 2012 at 7:46 PM

I understand your frustration with the kind of crap we’re all seeing here these days at HA, but I hope you’ll reconsider. I’ve always enjoyed your posts as they are thoughtful and you can also be quite witty and fun. Also, many of these offending newbie trolls aren’t going to last long, they will either be banned or find a new occupy site. If you decide to leave for good, however, thanks for your insight and commentary over the years. Your a good woman, Key West.

TXUS on February 2, 2012 at 8:11 PM

And why is PP freaking out if this money is easily replaceable?
Odie1941 on February 2, 2012 at 6:08 PM

Best I can tell it’s become a “traitor to the cause” issue at this point and a battle for the hearts and minds of the “womens” vote. The left wants to equate breast cancer along with abortion as morally equivalent, life or death, “womens” issues that all right thinking, compassionate, intelligent women should rally around as holy sacrament for the greater good of all womanhood. Of course this can best be accomplished by voting for uber-liberal, wack job, way out there, political candidates. Koman’s jumping ship severs the relationship and in the process puts a moral taint on one of the left’s most sacred cows. Millions and millions of concerned American women now have social dispensation to acknowledge that the soft voice in their heart that tells them killing an innocent child in the womb is a morally repugnant, evil, horrible thing that I should never feel guilty about not wanting to support in any conceivable way. We call this voice a conscience, it won’t go away, and any attempts to suppress it just pop out somewhere else in generally ugly and destructive ways.

Obviously, this concerns the left as they have always tried to make it a matter of group loyalties using the tools of peer-pressure and social ostracism to keep the troops from taking a closer inspection into the horrible “in color” realities of the ethical positions they are being asked to take. Thus, the left is going to bring out all the big guns in an attempt to pummel Komman back into the fold accompanied by many mea-culpas.

At least that’s how I see it.

tommyboy on February 2, 2012 at 8:13 PM

(Maybe abortion is wrong because it reduces the supply of virgins to marry and sex after killing their family …? That kind of sort of makes sense.)

I oppose abortion. Precisely because people only have one life and should be able to decide what to do with. To pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness in their own way.

Of course, most of you know you only have one life, but part of you is religious because this is a terrifying thought, especially for our loved ones. I understand that.

Anyway, many Christians are pro-life. Cool. I welcome your support. Even if being pro-life makes no sense from a Christian perspective, since people grow up and risk massive odds of corruption and hell, vs. dying while truly innocent (in the womb no less!) and facing no suck risk.

If Christianity was true, I’d be completely pro-abortion for everybody in every circumstance. But because I’m an atheist, I realize one life is all I or any child gets.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:03 PM

By your own logic I should be gutting you. But Because I believe in the GOLDEN RULE (look it up) I’ll leave you to your own sophistry.

Don’t grow up. Grow wiser.

WryTrvllr on February 2, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:06 PM

(sigh) Please don’t quote the Bible if you do not know anything about it mmmkay! Those were instructions on how to treat slaves as it was the reality of the time. It does not mean that they condoned slavery at all. In fact, look I can randomly quote the Bible too. You will notice what kind of company slavers are ranked with:

1 Timothy 1:8–10

8 Now we know that rthe law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the slaw is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,2 liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to tsound3 doctrine,

melle1228 on February 2, 2012 at 8:33 PM

“I can randomly quote the Bible too. You will notice what kind of company slavers are ranked with:”

Contradictory? Inconsistent? The Bible??

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:37 PM

Contradictory? Inconsistent? The Bible??

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:37 PM

And what was your name again, Mr. Brownian???

WryTrvllr on February 2, 2012 at 8:42 PM

If Christianity was true, I’d be completely pro-abortion for everybody in every circumstance. But because I’m an atheist, I realize one life is all I or any child gets.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Not to pick on you, Random, and I am truly not but your statement makes it sound like you DO support Right to Life.

If, as a atheist (or maybe agnostic?) you truly believe this is the only life we receive, doesn’t that mean we should cherish it EVEN more for those that never even had the chance to decide their fate?

As a side note its very seductive to try to compare the Death Penalty to Abortion rights but they are 2 separate and unequal arguments…

BlaxPac on February 2, 2012 at 8:43 PM

You understand my position correctly, BlaxPac.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:48 PM

That’s my last comment on Hot Air.

Best regards to all,
L

Key West Reader on February 2, 2012 at 7:27 PM

I am a newbie and I have enjoyed reading your posts for a LONG time. As such, I would ask you to reconsider. There are many of us in need of guidance and your perspective is always thoughtful. This is a topic that inspires passionate discussions, many times because of our painful experiences with it (myself included). If you do choose to go, peace and prayers unto you.

hoosierma on February 2, 2012 at 8:53 PM

And if you didn’t pick up on it, BlaxPac, I quoted the Biblical god-ordered babykilling (and youn’-captive-virgin-a-rapin’) and sanctioned slavery and slave-beating quotes; in on point response to others’ comments here; to express my disapproval for such murderous and anti-freedom actions.

Wherever I get my morality from, it definitely isn’t there. Natural instinct and the desire not to smack babies against rocks? Probably that.

More on this.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Contradictory? Inconsistent? The Bible??

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:37 PM

Sure, parts of the Bible can be taken out of context…just as the Torah, Koran, etc et al.

Remember the term “The Spirit and Letter of the Law”?

Religion, organized or otherwise, can be and has been manipulated by unsavory men & women alike since quill was put to parchment and frankly since man has sat around a communal fire for warmth protection & stories.

BlaxPac on February 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM

“As a side note its very seductive to try to compare the Death Penalty to Abortion rights”

Only as seductive as a comparison between guilt and innocence.

tommyboy on February 2, 2012 at 8:56 PM

You liberals suck.

How can you take the name of a woman and drag it through your trash bin?

/I’m out of here. This literally sucks.

Hot Air = Politico?

Bye

Key West Reader on February 2, 2012

It’s a touchy subject.

You realize there are people here calling other people here murderers and saying they are not Christians, right? (something it is hardly their place to determine) And by not being Christians, destined to Hell.

These commenters making these extreme accusations (I’m not saying they’re wrong) are NOT receiving the social disapproval of the majority of others here — despite their saying their fellow commenters are unChristians and murderers and murder supporters.

I’m just saying the vitriol goes both ways, not only from the unpopular commenters to the popular, but most definitely (and more frequently, naturally, by the nature of popularity vs. unpopularity) the other way ’round.

Good luck to you in whatever you do.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:59 PM

Sure, parts of the Bible can be taken out of context…

What I selectively quoted and other examples I could point to get worse or stay just as bad in context.

There really aren’t that many good contexts for Numbers 31 and numerous other good, horrific examples for a non-religiously believing person, and it is to the shame of religious believers that they think there is justification.

Present company not excepted.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:06 PM

And if you didn’t pick up on it, BlaxPac, I quoted the Biblical god-ordered babykilling (and youn’-captive-virgin-a-rapin’) and sanctioned slavery and slave-beating quotes; in on point response to others’ comments here; to express my disapproval for such murderous and anti-freedom actions.

Wherever I get my morality from, it definitely isn’t there. Natural instinct and the desire not to smack babies against rocks? Probably that.

More on this.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Oh…now THAT’S funny. Because the religions you be quoting let that go a long time ago. should be interesting to see who you cast your lot in with…/s

WryTrvllr on February 2, 2012 at 9:06 PM

Because the religions you be quoting let that go a long time ago. should be interesting to see who you cast your lot in with…/s

And turned to threatening little children (and their parents and brothers and sisters, which may be worse in their loving eyes) with eternal torment unless they comply. And if they do, there’s the false promise of bliss in heaven. So they ought to spend this one life denying themselves real pleasures and giving time and attention to the system that lies to them, which is based on genocide, rape, slavery, and so on … and the guy who brought up the eternal torment thing says the Old Testament laws are still in effect.

Look, I can’t beat faith. It’s self-sustaining, requires nothing to match or jive. But I refrain the right to chastize people who worship brutal gods in the same way I do those who praise mass murderers, rapists, slave owners, and the like.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:13 PM

*maintain

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:14 PM

nd turned to threatening little children (and their parents and brothers and sisters, which may be worse in their loving eyes) with eternal torment unless they comply. And if they do, there’s the false promise of bliss in heaven. So they ought to spend this one life denying themselves real pleasures and giving time and attention to the system that lies to them, which is based on genocide, rape, slavery, and so on … and the guy who brought up the eternal torment thing says the Old Testament laws are still in effect.

Look, I can’t beat faith. It’s self-sustaining, requires nothing to match or jive. But I refrain the right to chastize people who worship brutal gods in the same way I do those who praise mass murderers, rapists, slave owners, and the like.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:13 PM

WTF? You’re right. You can’t beat faith. At least one that fights back. So when you’ve killed one, enjoy the one that chucks stones at mental masterbs such as yourself. You make your bed, you sleep in it.

WryTrvllr on February 2, 2012 at 9:22 PM

“Because the religions you be quoting let that go a long time ago.”

Also, “let go of” genocide, and rape, and murder, and child-killing with a smile is just not the strongest moral position to be in for anything, much less a religion founded by an eternal and unchanging God.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:22 PM

(Maybe abortion is wrong because it reduces the supply of virgins to marry and sex after killing their family …? That kind of sort of makes sense.)

Does it? If so, put down the pipe/glass/syringe, cause that’s not your reason speaking.

Of course, most of you know you only have one life, but part of you is religious because this is a terrifying thought, especially for our loved ones. I understand that.

Right. You’re smart and came to your atheism by thinking, but we’re all stupid and scared.

If Christianity was true, I’d be completely pro-abortion for everybody in every circumstance.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:03 PM

Please quit insulting us with your less than shallow understanding of our religion. Or do you want me to tell you how impossible it’s supposed to be for atheists to have a moral code? I’m sure you can recognize how idiotic that would be. Feel free to use that feeling as a guide for how we feel when you write crap like that.

Or don’t and show yourself for a fool. This is mostly advice. There are plenty of atheists trolls here, so it’s no skin off my nose if you want to be one.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 9:24 PM

Planned Parenthood…….our modern day Gas ovens.

Hitler, Darwin, Wilson and Sanger would all be proud.

PappyD61 on February 2, 2012 at 9:27 PM

much less a religion founded by an eternal and unchanging God.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:22 PM

God doesn’t change, but we do and certainly have over the last several thousand years.

I realize you’re smarter than he is and all, but even humans understand the need to adapt your teaching style to your audience.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 9:27 PM

Also, “let go of” genocide, and rape, and murder, and child-killing with a smile is just not the strongest moral position to be in for anything, much less a religion founded by an eternal and unchanging God.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:22 PM

you need to pay more attention to the world around you…….for your kids sake….

WryTrvllr on February 2, 2012 at 9:30 PM

Remember, liberal activists don’t just want women to have the freedom to choose to have an abortion. That’s so bourgeois and libertarian and last decade. They want others to have to pay for it, specifically people who oppose abortion.

To be morally neutral on abortion for liberals, you have to support absconding money for abortions from people who wouldn’t otherwise support them, like taxpayers and cancer donors. If you don’t support compulsory public funding, you’re anti-woman and part of the problem.

HitNRun on February 2, 2012 at 9:38 PM

And the result of all of this boo-hooing? Somehow we have forgotten that it was Planned Parenthood’s decisions to, repeatedly, protect rapists. Not just any rapists, but men who are raping kids.

But no… this is all about anti-choice zealots or something, like OMG fer sher.

Book on February 2, 2012 at 9:39 PM

And if you didn’t pick up on it, BlaxPac, I quoted the Biblical god-ordered babykilling (and youn’-captive-virgin-a-rapin’) and sanctioned slavery and slave-beating quotes; in on point response to others’ comments here; to express my disapproval for such murderous and anti-freedom actions.

Again, Random, no one really said there were such passages in the Bible, especially in the Old Testimate, but it IS the context. But look at it this way, how many countries or cultures that don’t practice Christianity or Organized Religion in any form, but still seem to have the same bloodthirsty tendencies?

Not to mention, again, if i asked a Talmud or Islamic scholar to translate their respective books, I’m sure I could come up with similar examples.

BUT: I could also come up with just as positive passages from all three at the same time.

Wherever I get my morality from, it definitely isn’t there. Natural instinct and the desire not to smack babies against rocks? Probably that.

More on this.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Well, even in your religious non-fervor you could still be influenced by cultural “norms”….and IMHO, i think of HOW you were raised influences your faith as much as the origination of any one religion.

BlaxPac on February 2, 2012 at 9:40 PM

My experience with PP has always been positive. When I was in college and did not have much money the PP in my area was there for me. Recieved papsmears, got birth control pills for very little $ and no one ever asked me if I came in for an abortion or asked me to bring women in for abortions nor was I ever invited to the kill black people rally.

Isserley on February 2, 2012 at 9:46 PM

You know, I love this meme that atheists portray people of faith as afraid of dying. So we need some rationale to help us deal with that. Freaking funny.

Bottom line. I’ve seen lots of death and dying. The only ones generally not afraid are the faithful.

Try again.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 9:52 PM

You know, I love this meme that atheists portray people of faith as afraid of dying. So we need some rationale to help us deal with that. Freaking funny.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 9:52 PM

It’s projection. They imagine the only reason they might find our “stories” helpful and assume we’re all that stupid and lazy in our faith.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 9:55 PM

Planned Parenthood is great. They never even really killed any human babies. I know. Because how could an organization that cares about women’s health so much, kill babies? Absurd!

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 9:55 PM

It’s projection. They imagine the only reason they might find our “stories” helpful and assume we’re all that stupid and lazy in our faith.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 9:55 PM

I’ve seen the entire gamut. The adage that there are no atheists in foxholes? No truer words.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 9:58 PM

W O A H! W O A H ! W O A H !
I NEED AN HOUR TO DRIVE HOME FROM WORK… AND I GET ON HERE…
AND KEY WEST IS SAYING SO LONG? WTF?
NO NO NO NO – KEEP DA BUTT HERE PLEASE! DON’T YOU DARE GO ANYWHERE!
I’M SEEING OTHER NAMES ON HERE LESS OFTEN TOO!
WHO THE HE11 AM I GOING TO LEARN FROM?
YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO ME!(will a guilt plea work?…or tell me what will!)
PLEASE! KEY!!!!!
(I’ll ban hammer myself!)

KOOLAID2 on February 2, 2012 at 10:00 PM

I’ve seen the entire gamut. The adage that there are no atheists in foxholes? No truer words.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 9:58 PM

I imagine you’ve seen men in their truest moments. I can’t even imagine what that’s like but it sounds fascinating.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 10:08 PM

First, breast cancer took my mother in 95, three days short of her 60th birthday. So I give when I can, that Komen doesn’t want to give to abortionists, is just icing on the cake for me.. We lost our third child, a son, stillborn in 04, so the very idea someone would do that willingly, is so outside the realm of sanity to me, my wife.. as to remove them from any society.

So now we have another in your face athiest, trying again to show that because the Bible records the teachings and will of a society that exited 2000 years ago, all the way back to Adam and Eve… that means we must also believe they were moral too?

yeah… great.. another evangelist athiest, spreading the gospel of I myself and me.

Random ignores the facts of history. That Christainty has changed much in two millenia, and that we have come to our current stance through a history of struggle and God’s will. I know God exists, because he answers the prayers of a flawed sinner like me, everytime.. I live in pain, multiple back fractures, nerve damage, sugeries and stenosis, I take methadone and gabapentin to dull the pain. They don’t always work, and sometimes, the insurance, Medicad=id.. now Medicare screw up and I go a few days without the meds, and that is something I’d wish on no one.

It has been bad,.. so bad, I did something I never thought I’d do, pray for myself.. something I always felt was selfish. When it got so bad, I literally wished God would take me, I prayed, please, Jesus, please, make it stop..

and as if someone had opened a window, I felt almost a gentle breeze wash over me, and the pain started to rapidly fade, til it was no more than the tolerable levels I had always had before. I didn’t ask the Lord to cure me, I’m not worthy, but when I desperately needed him, he answered me.

My wife was there, and she too believes me on this, having been at my side, holding onto me through the worst of it.

I know deep inside he cares, he listens,.. and while I don’t know why bad things happen in the world, I know he may answer, if you ask. For that alone, I reject the word games of the athiests, they seek to justify their lack of faith by ruining that of others, in a never ending game of ,… see see, they agree with me..

I’m past childish games, past caring that some child untouched by torment has all the answers, when he never knew the question.

You are moral, because you decided to be on your own?

Couldn’t be that the social norms you adhere too, were long ago based on a Christian morality, encoded in law, and passed down, only slightly touched by shifting trends, with the basics of that same morality passing now as secular, when we know where they originated from.

You aren’t moral because you just know how to be.. you are a product of your culture, religious roots and all, why deny that..

mark81150 on February 2, 2012 at 10:10 PM

You know, I love this meme that atheists portray people of faith as afraid of dying. So we need some rationale to help us deal with that. Freaking funny.

Bottom line. I’ve seen lots of death and dying. The only ones generally not afraid are the faithful.

Try again.

hawkdriver on February 2, 2012 at 9:52 PM

I haven’t seen what you have, can’t compare, but I’ve seen enough, and you’re right Hawk, so very right. I stopped fearing death along time ago, now, I just fear lossing time with my wife and children, that’s all. When you’ve seen through a morphine drip past the hoses and cables, seeing through the haze of pain you loose the fear and see death as a release from the pain, a chance to see those who loved you before..

no, people of faith don’t fear death, it’s rationalization to try and say we do..

sorry,.. too much said already,..

mark81150 on February 2, 2012 at 10:19 PM

You know, I love this meme that atheists portray people of faith as afraid of dying. So we need some rationale to help us deal with that. Freaking funny.

It probably evolved even more as an anti-suicide measure once we began smart enough to realize the temporariness and basic pointlessness of life.

But largely it was about the eugenics, genocide, and group cohesion. I mean, read Numbers 31. Extremely effective behavior on passing your genes onto future generations and expanding your population (taking virgin females) and territory.

Totally the sort of ape behavior Jane Goodall would have instantly recognized as in her chimps.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:26 PM

Is anyone aware of the video produced by the pro-life activist that proves many Planned Parenthood locations around the country (if not all) DO NOT OFFER MAMMOGRAMS? She made random calls to many locations inquiring if PP offered such screening and was told “no” in every instance. In their recent push not to lose funding, they claim they perform mammograms but they do not. Could this be a reason for the end of funding? Afterall, mammograms are the key to diagnosiing breast cancer. Anyone else hear about this?

BabysCatz on February 2, 2012 at 10:31 PM

“Couldn’t be that the social norms you adhere too, were long ago based on a Christian morality, encoded in law, and passed down, only slightly touched by shifting trends, with the basics of that same morality passing now as secular, when we know where they originated from.”

Yep. Could be that, and is in part. Not only that in my case (I derive some of my values from study of the classical world and even did as a child, but also from reading of cultures such as the Celts, Gauls, Franks, and so on, not to mention the Enlightenment (yes, influenced by the moderating effects of Christianity interacting with pre-Christian ideals of reason) and facts from modern science such as evolution, genetics, studies of human nature and sexual behavior, and on and on.

But of course, you’re right.

Which isn’t to say going back and looking at those events and behaviors I cited (such as slavery: rational behavior in many respects) gains my current approval.

Some cultures shaped kids heads with boards or had human sacrifice or what have you. I acknowledge the hardware in humans’ heads is very malleable and can believe many things, from Naziism to Jainism and everything in between.

When I speak of disapproving of the slavery and genocide and rape in the Bible, I’m speaking from my personal perspective and preferences.

I understand how, from a genetic point of view, each of these behaviors can work under certain circumstances. It’s trivially easy to understand, actually.

I mean, take rape.

I disapprove of it.

But if an unsuccessful male wanted to perpetuate their genes, which is natural, forcing a higher-genetic-quality-than-he-could-otherwise-get to have sex and get pregnant turns him into a successful male, evolutionarily speaking. That’s repugnant to you and I, but easy to understand, right?

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:35 PM

I mean, we disapprove now of murder, rape, genocide (see Naziism and their attempts to spread their ‘race’ at the expense of others), but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a certain underlying mathematical logic to them.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:37 PM

It probably evolved even more as an anti-suicide measure once we began smart enough to realize the temporariness and basic pointlessness of life.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:26 PM

So, if Christianity is true, we should all die in the womb, but it evolved to stop people from wanting to end it all even though it’s also because we’re afraid of death.

All of that makes sense to you. OK.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 10:37 PM

I mean, abortion has a logic: “I feel like partying.”

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:37 PM

“All of that makes sense to you. OK.”

Most people more follow religious commands and laid down rules, if anything, rather than do logical analysis of doctrines to derive possibly logical conclusions from them (adulthood sucks, ’cause almost all of us get corrupted, so why have 50 years of that and lose out on 17540850834050807085485 x E13065 years of bliss, etc.).

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:40 PM

Random on February 2, 2012 at 9:22 PM

Also, “let go of” genocide, and rape, and murder, and child-killing with a smile is just not the strongest moral position to be in for anything, much less a religion founded by an eternal and unchanging God.

The message is that the eternal and unchanging God will judge people for their actions. That you choose not to explain the moral context of those whom God judged worthy of death is typical of the arguments from atheists–tired old arguments, asked and answered by learned people many times over. Understanding takes more work than copying from atheist blogs.

Abortion, on the other hand, puts men and women, not God, in the position of deciding the life and death of a child, a human being. The problem with arguments of choice is they fail to see the need to answer a question more basic than whether one has the right to choose. That question is “What is the “it” that you are killing?” At every stage of development, from inception to birth, the object in a mother’s women is a human being appropriate for that stage.

STL_Vet on February 2, 2012 at 10:40 PM

Most people more follow religious commands and laid down rules, if anything, rather than do logical analysis of doctrines to derive possibly logical conclusions from them (adulthood sucks, ’cause almost all of us get corrupted, so why have 50 years of that and lose out on 17540850834050807085485 x E13065 years of bliss, etc.).

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:40 PM

So says you, and it’s clear in every single thing you’ve written about religion that this is how you feel, but you’ve also proven that though you’ve written about and read the Bible, you understand very little of it. Obviously a pearl is just s pebble to someone who doesn’t value it. Unfortunately for those people, the ball’s value is not affected by their opinion but instead by something much larger.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 10:49 PM

You aren’t moral because you just know how to be.. you are a product of your culture, religious roots and all, why deny that..

mark81150 on February 2, 2012 at 10:10 PM

Exactly. It’s culture that influences your sense of morality. If you were born Zulu during the time of Chaka, you’d find the notion that life is precious to be foreign. Likewise if born during the time of Numbers. Heck if born a Klingon, you’d be striving to be the best fearless Klingon whether you believe their ancient religions or not. In fact every culture can trace its Genesis to a religion, whether those people believe it or reject the religion.

AH_C on February 2, 2012 at 10:54 PM

Esthier, I understand how you could see things that way.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM

I understand how, from a genetic point of view, each of these behaviors can work under certain circumstances. It’s trivially easy to understand, actually.

I mean, take rape.

I disapprove of it.

But if an unsuccessful male wanted to perpetuate their genes, which is natural, forcing a higher-genetic-quality-than-he-could-otherwise-get to have sex and get pregnant turns him into a successful male, evolutionarily speaking. That’s repugnant to you and I, but easy to understand, right?

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:35 PM

So, what’s your point?

That primitive cultures engaged in activities designed to benefit them genetically? You won’t find to many people disagreeing that a savage ruled by instinct alone, would do that. But going back to the time of Abraham, when slavery was the only known practice, genocide a considered tactic to prevent refighting the same wars again.. how does any of that, make moder Christian morality unsound or unworthy?

Have you considered God has brought man from the age of savagery through his word? The way the world worked in 2000BC is not how it does now, at least in the western advanced cultures, and certain Asian ones. God created man, but man was mightily driven by baser instincts for a long time, and not all men, far from all men even followed the word of God.

The Bible chronicles, and gives us the words of Jesus, the redeemer, he was the final way God brought man into the compassioante being we aspire to today..you really think, because man was once beastlike in action, that God wanted us to remain that way? That would take ignoring the entirety of Jesus’s teachings to do.

You seem to be fascinated by primitive man, and seem to think the Bible wants us to stay that way, when no Christain would dream of enslaving another, or murdering their children, it is through Jesus, that we put that past behind mankind..

why is that so difficult to accept?

You don’t have to believe, no one can make you, so why the burning desire on your part, to wreck the faith of others? If having a moral conviction that abortion is murder is based on Christian belief, that bothers you?

More than if someone believed it, because oh say, they happened to read a really juicy passage in ancient greek which really got them thinking?

I fail to see why you find your path to morality alright, but ours as somehow flawed. Not everyone goes to college, or reads ancient philosphy, or more even care about it, so I fail to see how the mass medium of Christain faith is wrong for teaching what you admit is moral,… you just dislike the path we came to it by?

mark81150 on February 2, 2012 at 11:01 PM

So, what’s your point?

That my arguments against the Bible on wonton cruelty and sick perversion grounds are based on my personal preferences against those things, not an ultimate objective truth in the universe.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 11:04 PM

Although wonton seems a little too Chinese for the Bible.

;) Getting tired and hungry. Will satisfy the second pointless instinctive craving first. Nice talking to you.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 11:05 PM

If having a moral conviction that abortion is murder is based on Christian belief, that bothers you?

Not really. I’m emotionally glad for it on one level.

But I like objective truth, and a strong consistent warrant against harming children is hard to find in God’s nature, or in the directives He gives men.

Really must go to Burger King. It’s Double Stacker day. Take care.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 11:08 PM

Esthier, I understand how you could see things that way.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 10:59 PM

You prove otherwise. If any of what I said made any sense to you, you wouldn’t write what you have, let alone assume you have even a portion of the truth. It’s OK to disagree, but you may as well know what we actually believe instead of imaging our rationales.

You’re no Jane Goodall. We do speak English. And I’m sure you’ve seen full well that there’s nothing Christians like more than to talk about their theology. If anything it would make you a more credible dissenter.

Esthier on February 2, 2012 at 11:26 PM

Well, of all the athiests I’ve spoken with online, at least he’s nice about it.

mark81150 on February 2, 2012 at 11:34 PM

“You prove otherwise.”

I’ve been a religious believer before. I remember feeling other people were missing out and couldn’t see what I saw.

I can also just understand how one person can see something of value that another person can’t.

Now I PERSONALLY don’t value it anymore. But I can understand how other people do.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 11:44 PM

There are advantages to religious belief. I firmly believe that.

As I said, I think they evolved as a survival and replication mechanism, like most things.

I mean, “no condoms”. “no abortion”. “family is important”. “multiple wives, can be god on own planet, many children”.

Forgetting all the darker stuff I referenced, it isn’t hard to see the utility (and beauty, especially the first one) in that.

More seriously though, I believe emotions are biochemical cascades combined with neurological firing patterns originating in the Limbic system, and suppressed by the cerebral cortex (which creates different levels of neuroticism vs. stability, by the way), when stimulated by the R.A.S. system. They are physical processes that happened to be effective at helping genes perpetuate.

I don’t believe there is any objective purpose to life. We have a strong instinctive and cultural bias for life, but I do not believe there is any reason to it.

In fact, I believe complete objectivity leads to apathy and biological death, including through suicide. It also, while an accurate logical conclusion, destabilizes the mind (from an excess of truthful thinking, which we did not evolve to have: we evolved to be great at using objective thinking for accomplishing subjective goals: placing objectivity as one’s true top value is self-lethal, despite the greater truth obtained).

So assuming one accepts the instinctive life-bias as their starting position, religion can definitely be “good” in that way too: providing an organized subjective structure for the mind to wrap itself around, while using the objective faculties to pursue survival and replication goals.

But in reality, nothing matters whatsoever objectively. Including the things I like or dislike.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 11:52 PM

“I can randomly quote the Bible too. You will notice what kind of company slavers are ranked with:”

Contradictory? Inconsistent? The Bible??

Random on February 2, 2012 at 8:37 PM

You do realize the Bible is not just one book but a compilation of over 60 books authored over hundreds of years? Do you think any book on Lincoln is exactly consistent with every other book written about him?

Nutstuyu on February 2, 2012 at 11:55 PM

Yeah, I realize that. It was written by men without divine imprimatur.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 12:01 AM

As a breast cancer Survivor let me say this: the statistics show that having an abortion increases the likelihood of breast cancer.

uhangtight on February 2, 2012 at 5:41 PM

Please don’t take this as in any way diminishing what you went through or what you were told, but SGK says that there’s no connection between abortion and breast cancer.

Scientific evidence from the most comprehensive and well-designed studies in the U.S. and around the world does not support the conclusion that induced abortion or miscarriage raises the risk of breast cancer.

Link

mnealtx on February 3, 2012 at 4:07 AM

Evidently the report and site linked to in my post above was a hack of komen.org.

My apologies for giving out bad info.

mnealtx on February 3, 2012 at 5:27 AM

You sure it wasn’t just a server where they store their files?

Websites will often offload pictures to another server other than where they store the html, javascript, and css files, to speed loading times.

In fact, they’ll often offload those too.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 5:29 AM

The ww5.komen.org site is legit, and your info is valid, mnealtix.

You can tell this by going to the http://www.komen.org site and, for example, copying the URL to their donate page. It goes to the exact same URL as the ww5 site.

Why they use this mirror, I don’t know, but obviously the same webmaster is in charge of both sites. It isn’t a phishing scam.

The actual domain in both cases is komen.org — the ww5 or www is a subdomain of the main domain.

They are not two separate domains.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 5:38 AM

It’s probably that the webmaster uses the ww5 subdomain for site testing of changes before going live. However, the webmaster incompetently forgot to use a “noindex, noarchive” metatag for the ww5 domain, which causes duplicate search engine listings.

This duplicate content can actually be penalized by search engines in their ranking algorithms, and also looks fishy to visitors. But isn’t.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 5:41 AM

But I like objective truth, and a strong consistent warrant against harming children is hard to find in God’s nature, or in the directives He gives men.

It is not hard to find at all in scriptural revelation – the Gospels condemn harming childred in the strongest terms. And apart from God there is no such thing as non-empirical “objective” truth as you have no “object” to ground it in.

tommyboy on February 3, 2012 at 6:10 AM

We don’t need no

No no no

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

hillbillyjim on February 3, 2012 at 6:19 AM

It is not hard to find at all in scriptural revelation – the Gospels condemn harming childred in the strongest terms.

Oh yeah, I totally agree, and Jesus’ words about millstones and children are poignant and on point. But I did refer to a “consistent” warrant.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 7:05 AM

But I did refer to a “consistent” warrant.
Random on February 3, 2012 at 7:05 AM

finitum non capax infinitum.

tommyboy on February 3, 2012 at 7:19 AM

I remember feeling other people were missing out and couldn’t see what I saw.

No surprise you feel the same way now. And it’s no surprise that you were “religious” – that explains your projection on how horrible we all are for believing what you used to believe.

But in reality, nothing matters whatsoever objectively. Including the things I like or dislike.

Random on February 2, 2012 at 11:52 PM

So you’re a nihilist. I’m sorry, but Walter was right, “I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it’s an ethos.”

Esthier on February 3, 2012 at 11:32 AM

Of course.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 8:17 PM

Same with the worse horrors of your religion.

Random on February 3, 2012 at 8:18 PM

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