Open thread: The nastiest debate yet?

posted at 8:39 pm on January 23, 2012 by Allahpundit

9 p.m. ET on NBC. Said Newt today of Romney’s panic, “If you’ve been campaigning for six years and you begin to see it slip away, you get desperate, and when you get desperate you say almost anything. And I think tonight’s debate will probably stretch the barrier of almost anything.” There’s all the reason you need to watch. Meanwhile, brand new from PPP:

PPP’s first post-South Carolina poll in Florida finds Newt Gingrich with a small lead. He’s at 38% to 33% for Mitt Romney, 13% for Rick Santorum, and 10% for Ron Paul…

If Rick Santorum drops out between now and next Tuesday, Gingrich will be the beneficiary. His voters prefer Gingrich over Romney 50-23, and in a field where he’s no longer a candidate Newt’s lead expands to 43-36…

Newt is drawing out new voters. With the 11% of the electorate that didn’t vote in the 2008 primary, he leads 40-30. Meanwhile Romney is having trouble holding onto the folks who voted for him in 2008. 37% are supporting someone else this time, with 19% of them moving toward Gingrich. This was a big problem for Romney in Iowa as well- if he could just hold onto the folks who supported him last time he’d be winning easily. But he doesn’t inspire a passionate enough following to keep folks in the fold.

Sixteen percent say they’ve already voted and, as expected, Romney leads among them — but only by a margin of 43/40, which is much narrower than analysts expected. Unless something dramatic happens this week, Gingrich should have no trouble overcoming that next Tuesday, especially if Santorum quits. (Imagine the frantic phone calls of encouragement Santorum is getting from establishment bigwigs right now.) The lingering question: How exactly did Newt Gingrich’s comeback become some sort of victory for tea partiers? Isn’t he, as James Delingpole puts it, a “rent-seeking DC insider who profited from the taxpayer via Fannie Mae and who recently attacked Mitt Romney’s record at Bain from the left”? More from Michael Crowley:

Newt has inarguably lived the good life of an Establishment man. As House Speaker he made no serious effort to take on the culture of Washington. Instead, he oversaw an expanded alliance between K Street lobbyists and congressional Republicans. And after he left Congress–purged by his colleagues, not for threatening their interests but for botching the politics of Bill Clinton’s impeachment–he settled comfortably into a life of lucrative speaking and influence-peddling…

[H]e favors huge tax cuts–probably the Establishment’s top priority. He wants to cut regulations, slash entitlements, and kill off ObamaCare–all sure fire applause lines at the American Enterprise Institute. True, his radical plan to rein in “activist judges” has drawn withering reviews from some certifiable Establishment men. But that’s not enough to explain the strong opposition to him in the sitting rooms of McLean, Virginia, which has become to the Republican Establishment what Georgetown once was to the Democratic elite (and where, incidentally, Newt himself lives). The bottom line is that Gingrich has more in common with Ross Douthat than with Ross Perot.

To the extent Newt threatens the Establishment, it’s because of his electability–or lack thereof. The GOP’s mandarins see Gingrich’s nomination as a sure way to blow their chance of deposing Barack Obama. They see Gingrich as the political equivalent of a Fukushima nuclear plant worker, with polls showing him to be lethally irradiated by his negative approval ratings.

All true. But wait — aren’t tea partiers actually more likely than other GOP sub-groups to compromise on ideology in hopes of defeating Obama? In theory, if Romney’s the most electable candidate, they should be grudgingly breaking towards him right now in the interest of beating O, not away from him. What gives? The answer, I think, lies in this nugget from Jonah Goldberg about Romney: “Politics is about persuasion and he’s simply not persuasive. I’m rapidly losing confidence that as a general election candidate he would be able to win over the crucial voters he would need to seal the deal.” That is to say, I think the base is increasingly convinced that Romney’s not appreciably more electable than Gingrich is. It’s not that Newt is looking better than he used to, it’s that Romney looks more wooden and dismal the more you’re exposed to him, which bodes ill for the general. If there’s no great electability disparity between them, why not gamble on the guy who at least has a mostly conservative record and who relishes throwing roundhouses at the left?

If that’s what’s happening then Romney’s new strategy of going harshly negative makes sense. He can’t sell himself, but maybe he can sell voters on the idea that Gingrich is a sure loser against O. There’s never really been an argument for Romney, after all, just an argument that there’s no viable Not Romney in the field. He’s got eight days to make the case. Here’s the Hot Air/Townhall Twitter widget plus a livefeed from NBC of the debate. And in case you’re wondering, no, Marco Rubio won’t be endorsing in the primary. Given how often he’s been touted as a potential Romney VP, that’s the best evidence yet of how much trouble Mitt’s in down in Florida. Exit question from Timothy Carney, who’s looking over the Freddie Mac contract that Gingrich’s camp just released: If Newt was merely a historian for them, why was he hired by their chief lobbyist?

Update: A brand new ad from Team Romney attacking his opponent’s “anti-establishment” image: Newt Gingrich, Washington insider.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy



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How can this be? I thought the last debate was Thunderdome.

sentinelrules on January 23, 2012 at 8:41 PM

Go Perry – oops ;)

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

anuary 23, 2012
*****************

9pm ET/8pm CT and 9pm PT on NBC – Live Stream (Live stream from 9pm to 10:30pm ET only)

Location: University of South Florida in Tampa, Florida
Sponsor: The Tampa Bay Times, NBC News, the National Journal and the Florida Council of 100
Participants: Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, Paul

http://www.2012presidentialelectionnews.com/2012-debate-schedule/2011-2012-primary-debate-schedule/
===============================================

Live Stream (Live stream from 9pm to 10:30pm ET only)
******************************************************

http://www.2012presidentialelectionnews.com/2012/01/nbc-newstamp-bay-times-gop-debate-tonight-on-nbc/

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 AM

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

none of the above

freshface on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

It’ll be interesting to see if all of the people that came out about how nasty Newt was, how nasty that superpac of his was – will they lament the nastiness from Mitt and his superpac?

I suspect not, but we shall see…

Midas on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Cheers!

over/under re: food stamp president and racial undertones by tingles and the rest of the msdnc crew before and after the debate…

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

This 100%: It’s not that Newt is looking better than he used to, it’s that Romney looks more wooden and dismal the more you’re exposed to him, which bodes ill for the general.

andy85719 on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

Rumor has it that it will not be broadcast on the West Coast until 9 pm pst. Does anyone know for sure?

GaltBlvnAtty on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

NBC STreaming Linky!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032553/ns/politics/

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

Early voting is of the debil (sic) and should be banned.

Dandapani on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

Remember while watching this debate, NEWT GINGRICH IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE.
His own words show his true colors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyeB36ctO5I&feature=player_embedded

1punchWill on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

The media is turning on Romney. Time to bring us some fresh meat, GOP.

JPeterman on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

ah, here we go….ed schultz, the coded language of food stamp president,

it’s already begun

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Got my bottle right here.

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Git ‘em, Newt. Make like a bulldozer. Put an end to Mass Mod Man.

platypus on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

It takes me an hour to get home-if it’s not on the radio-I’m counting on this thread, when I get home… for the play by play by all you stars!

KOOLAID2 on January 23, 2012 at 8:45 PM

f this. i’ve had it with these debates. listening to the john batchelor show instead.

sbvft contributor on January 23, 2012 at 8:45 PM

Go Perry – oops ;)

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Still so bummed that he’s gone :(

Jack_Burton on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

and the reply bush had more people under him with food stamps than dear leader

msdnc, unstinkingbelievable…

marcus, buckeye, slavedog, where are you???

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

Wicked/Evil/Nasty……………………..

The MSM are probably busy planting…..

Verbal
Political
Improved
Explosive
Devices,

to cause Mayhem,with Storm’nSantorm/CrazyPaul/Mittens
and

DukeNewtyNuke’m!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Lots O Snark)

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

Remember while watching this debate, NEWT GINGRICH IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE.
His own words show his true colors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyeB36ctO5I&feature=player_embedded

1punchWill on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

Your post only really matters if Romney is a ‘more conservative’ alternative. Since he is not, your comment is meaningless. Move along.

Midas on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

THIS IS DELICIOUS!

Flapjackmaka on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

There is an argument to vote for Romney: he’s a turn around artist. Anyone who says there isn’t is being absolutely disingenuous and more interested in their own pundit ratings than anything else.

Our party is too busy bashing capitalism and worrying about union jobs to care that Romney has turned around the Olympics, turned a Massachusetts deficit into a surplus, and turned around dozens of major companies.

It’s like the twilight zone. How do you expect to cut the Federal government without cutting federal jobs?

haner on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

GaltBlvnAtty on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

go to msdnc instead

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

Miller tweeted:
*****************

I’m told the debate hall can only hold a little over 300 people, all selected by the sponsors.

Don’t expect a rowdy audience tonight.

Story metadata:
Submitted 1 min ago from twitter.com/ZekeJMiller by editor

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

Romney is in 2008 attack mode. That worked out well for him then…

29Victor on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Cheers!

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

Ooops.. I didn’t know there was a debate. They’re coming fast. I can’t keep up.

JellyToast on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

A predebate note, keep in mind that, though Newt mmay be able to win vs O in other ways, it is NOT going to be about the debates in the fall. Probably 3 staid short debates is all. O won’t agree to L-D debates that would advantage Newt. No way.
It will be almost solely about $$. O will raise huge $. Can Newt raise the $$$? Can Mitt? Who else?

anotherJoe on January 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM

From what I’m seeing on Twitter it’s nasty outside the venue also. The Occupy crowd is apparently large, rude and crude.

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM

Obama is not re-electable.

SlaveDog on January 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM

If Newt was merely a historian for them, why was he hired by their chief lobbyist?

Because I think the only one still claiming that Newt was not acting as an unregistered lobbyist is Newt. The Washington Examiner looked into this some weeks ago and came to the conclusion that Newt was lobbying no matter what they were calling his position.

The problem with these wannabes is that the electable one isn’t all that electable and the conservative one isn’t all that conservative.

Happy Nomad on January 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM

it’s that Romney looks more wooden and dismal the more you’re exposed to him, which bodes ill for the general.

andy85719 on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

That’s kind of the impression I get from him. I told a co-worker today that Romney is like your favorite meal without salt and pepper–bland.

And unfortunately for him there’s not much he can do about it. One’s personality is what it is.

predator on January 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM

I may pop some popcorn. Yes, it will be a war. First, Newt was way ahead, and felt it slip from his grasp. And then, Mitt was way ahead, and HE felt it slip from his grasp. And now Newt is ahead again. Blood will be spilled.

Paul-Cincy on January 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM

i expect nothing less

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Go Perry – oops ;)

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Still so bummed that he’s gone :(

Jack_Burton on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

*looks for cozmo*

Yeah me too. It just isn’t as fun or interesting without him.

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Online Streaming Live Feed (MSNBC)
************************************

http://www.zahistation.com/watch-msnbc-news-live

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM

It would be nice if there were a thread about Newt and Mitt instead of the same old thing.

Bishop on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Cheers!

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

I just did.
*Clink*

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

it is true that Romney has no charisma and lacks a genuine sense of energy.

but O’R got pretty agitated tonight because he knows that Newt has stood up to the leftist press. As he said 70 percent of the press will try to hurt you if they disagree with you.

And, that because newt stood up to them, people are flocking to him…because they too know that the press is just the leftist palace guard…or palace guard dogs…for barry.

I think that’s true…people are willing to overlook how flawed newt is because he performs nicely the role of media stomper

r keller on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Your post only really matters if Romney is a ‘more conservative’ alternative. Since he is not, your comment is meaningless. Move along.

Midas on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

Romney never supported a national healthcare mandate, sat on the couch with Nancy pelosi and spent years advocating “green conservatism”, or said America needs to get used to surrendering her sovereignty.

Mitt also doesn’t singlehandedly permenantly destroy the credibility of the “party of values” if he’s chosen as their standardbearer.

So yeah.

1punchWill on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Prediction: Devil will appear on stage and collect his debt on Gingrich.

ConservativeLaw on January 23, 2012 at 8:52 PM

r keller on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Did you see Coulter on that show? She was absolutely frantic; nearly screaming. I think she’s losing it. Somebody get her on some meds.

predator on January 23, 2012 at 8:52 PM

Another debate? Really?

mythicknight on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Online Streaming Live Feed (MSNBC)
************************************

http://www.zahistation.com/watch-msnbc-news-live

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Great!

That first one you posted that was actually MSNBC was trying to turn my computer into an OWS…
My computer was sluggish, unresponsive and using tons of resources.

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

I would like to watch but Rick Santorum’s voice makes me want to put my fist through my computer screen.

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

My Tivo guide said that “Fear Factor” is on NBC at 9 p.m. Heh.

Nikkia2112 on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Video

of Ron Paul supporters before the debate in Tampa – via

@KrisStubbsStory metadata:
Submitted 3 mins ago from http://www.tout.com by editor

http://www.breakingnews.com/

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

If Mitt cannot persuade the base that he is electable then how is he going to persuade anyone that Newt is unelectable?

d1carter on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Newt Gingrich’s consulting firm worked for Freddie Mac in 2006 and was paid $25,000 a month, according to contract – @PoliticalTicker

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Everyone is over-analyzing. Romney ran a “prevent” defense in SC. The base didn’t like it.

Romney just needs to demonstrate his mastery of the issues, bash Obama, and show PASSION. If he gets punched, he needs to hit back w a baseball bat.

matthew8787 on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Newt = Goldwater = Losing 45 States

CaliforniaRefugee on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Even if he does get biatch-slapped tonight, I’m not looking forward to listening to that smarmy, arrogant, Obama-bowing, Brian Williams.

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM

thanks buddy, just in case msdnc doesn’t show it…

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

Can’t we all agree that Mitt, Newt and Rick would ALL make good Presidents? Better than Obama. I’d happily vote for any one of them. Now the question is, who has the best chance at defeating Obama? That’s who I want to win the nomination.

Jack_Burton on January 23, 2012 at 8:55 PM

6.3 magnitude earthquake hits south of Fiji Islands – USGSStory metadata:
Submitted 39 mins ago from earthquake.usgs.gov by editor

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:55 PM

That is to say, I think the base is increasingly convinced that Romney’s not appreciably more electable than Gingrich is. It’s not that Newt is looking better than he used to, it’s that Romney looks more wooden and dismal the more you’re exposed to him, which bodes ill for the general. If there’s no great electability disparity between them, why not gamble on the guy who at least has a mostly conservative record and who relishes throwing roundhouses at the left?

Bingo!

IrishEi on January 23, 2012 at 8:56 PM

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:43 PM
thanks buddy, just in case msdnc doesn’t show it…

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

I’m trying to get another feed,but me thinks the net is busy,
I have MSNBC going,but no picture!:)

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:57 PM

Comcast doesn’t show the debate scheduled on either regular NBC or MSNBC. Hopefully the guide is wrong because I’d like to watch this one and my little netbook doesn’t handle live streaming well.

angela on January 23, 2012 at 8:57 PM

That first one you posted that was actually MSNBC was trying to turn my computer into an OWS…
My computer was sluggish, unresponsive and using tons of resources.

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

Lolz

batterup on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

I’m trying to get another feed,but me thinks the net is busy,
I have MSNBC going,but no picture!:)

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:57 PM

http://www.therightscoop.com/9pm-watch-the-nbc-republican-debate/

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

Go Perry – oops ;)

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Still so bummed that he’s gone :(

Jack_Burton on January 23, 2012 at 8:46 PM

HEY! Stop bird-dogging my girl. I saw her Perrylove first.

platypus on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Cheers!

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

Is there room for another at the bar…?

*clink*

Seven Percent Solution on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

Tonight Mitt will try to contain the Newtonium

Sams88 on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

I expect NBC to go after a knockout punch tonight on Romney. With Gingrich polling so well, they are probably wetting themselves at the mere possibility of Newt being the nominee. It would be a democrat wet dream come true if he won.

thphilli on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:53 PM

with ya there GG

marcia, marcia, marcia

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

We might all think this is awkward silence, but for Romney, it’s just “silence”

andy85719 on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

OK, I’m making the decision to actually *watch* one of these damnable things, but what channel is it on? MSNBC?

libfreeordie on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

Seven Percent Solution on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

absolutely

drinking game rules 7%?

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

Go Perry – oops ;)

gophergirl on January 23, 2012 at 8:42 PM

LOL! Good one. Glad to see you’re doing well in recovery.

Horace on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

libfreeordie on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

i think so, if not, canopfor has a linky above…

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Here we go!

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

its not on msdnc….use the linkies above…

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

and Santorum draws first blood!

Creston on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

I wonder if Newt will get any questions..?/

d1carter on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Newt Gingrich’s consulting firm worked for Freddie Mac in 2006 and was paid $25,000 a month, according to contract – @PoliticalTicker

canopfor on January 23, 2012 at 8:54 PM

By DC standards, that’s a very low monthly retainer amount. It’s what you would pay someone to keep them from working against you or for doing a moderate or small amount of work.

If I were Newt, I’d be a little embarrassed that someone of his experience had signed such a small contract.

TXUS on January 23, 2012 at 9:00 PM

Wow, the live stream is a few seconds ahead of the TV. Thats pretty awesome.

thphilli on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

1punchWill on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Again, did you notice that you don’t make the case that Romney’s a conservative, you’re just throwing rocks at Newt?

I’m not saying Newt’s a great conservative, either (he’s not). But if you can’t make a case that Romney *is* one (and… you can’t – I can throw as many of the same kind of rock at him) – then the argument over who’s schwanzstucker is more conservative is a bit silly…

Midas on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

OK, I’m making the decision to actually *watch* one of these damnable things, but what channel is it on? MSNBC?

libfreeordie on January 23, 2012 at 8:59 PM

NBC in DirectTV

JPeterman on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

It’s on the NBC affiliate stations.

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

Brian Williams: Smug, out of touch.

carbon_footprint on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

canopor

“I’m trying to get another feed”

Overeating again? Remember what your doctor said about that.

Horace on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

OOOooops here we go…

OmahaConservative on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

NBC has rules…

d1carter on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

Lord knows, we know everybody here
-brian

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

Electrongod on January 23, 2012 at 8:44 PM

Cheers!

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 8:47 PM

Is there room for another at the bar…?

*clink*

Seven Percent Solution on January 23, 2012 at 8:58 PM

I was gettin’ a little bit too ‘familiar’ w/ the booze and coffee so today I went cold turkey. Got a cold sweet tea from Freebird’s right here though. *Raises glass*.

annoyinglittletwerp on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

In other words, no standing ovations, right Brian?

Flora Duh on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

What gives?

People are listening to what they hear.

hillbillyjim on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

Where is Zephania Woodall Huntsman!!!!

carbon_footprint on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

Would’ve been kind of awesome if the audience had boo’d Brian when he said “no reactions please.”

libfreeordie on January 23, 2012 at 9:02 PM

The more Romney continues his viscious attacks on Gingrich the more I dislike the spineless Romney.

Sandybourne on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

electability

erratic and failed leader

cmsinaz on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

r keller on January 23, 2012 at 8:50 PM

Did you see Coulter on that show? She was absolutely frantic; nearly screaming. I think she’s losing it. Somebody get her on some meds.

predator on January 23, 2012 at 8:52 PM

no, i’ll watch it on the repeat.

r keller on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Brian Williams: Smug, out of touch.

carbon_footprint on January 23, 2012 at 9:01 PM

Wonder if he is going to bow to anyone, or is that only reserved for The One?

Horace on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Newt… let the snark begin!

profitsbeard on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Oh dear…here we go

Roymunson on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Jim Beam all around.

Hold on to yer hats, boys and girls.

hillbillyjim on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

What’s the magic word for the Newt drinking game: “Reagan” or “fundamentally”?

Pasalubong on January 23, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3 19