Open thread: The “I can’t believe they’re having another debate” debate

posted at 8:34 pm on January 16, 2012 by Allahpundit

9 p.m. ET on Fox News. If you’ve been reading the site today, you already know what to expect. Santorum will attack Romney for being an Obama clone, Gingrich will attack both of them for being unelectable, and Romney, I suppose, will attack Newt for his Bain criticism — all of which will be punctuated by grumbling about how unfair the other guy’s Super PAC is. Then Ron Paul will say something about the Fed and Perry will say something self-deprecating, and we’ll rinse and repeat. For two hours.

Philip Klein dares to think a terrible, terrible thought. I’m entitling this blockquote, “What if the tea party never existed?”

Is there anything stopping [Romney] from sweeping all 50 states?

Think about it. Romney has a commanding lead in Florida, and will simply obliterate the field if he enters the Sunshine State after having won South Carolina. And if he does win South Carolina and Florida, what will become of the rest of the field? Rick Perry, who came in fifth in Iowa and bailed on New Hamphshire, already has very little justification for continuing. A distant finish in South Carolina would give him even less reason. It’s true that there are states in which Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich can theoretically beat Romney, but if they can’t beat him in South Carolina, where will they go from there? Even now, Romney has a 23-point lead nationally, according to Gallup.

Sure, perhaps Rep. Ron Paul’s fervent supporters can out-hustle Romney’s organization in a caucus here or there. But it’s also possible that Romney will run the table. Remember, as the field gets narrowed, it’ll get a lot harder for Paul to outright win a state, because he’ll have to start getting into the 40-50-plus point range.

Skim this LA Times piece for a reminder of what makes Klein’s scenario plausible. It’s not just that Romney’s national organization is so solid; it’s that, apart from Ron Paul, he’s the only candidate who even has a national organization. And since I’m beating a dead horse by making that point again, let me beat another one by reminding you that even a Romney loss in South Carolina is unlikely to put Florida in play. PPP’s new poll tonight shows Mitt leading Gingrich there 41/26, and by an even wider margin among voters who say they’ve made up their minds. His favorables are 68/24 generally — better than in Iowa, New Hampshire, or South Carolina — and 70/18 on the narrower issue of his business record. So much for the Bain attacks. In fact, I’m curious to see whether Gingrich brings up Bain tonight or whether Romney himself does. That’ll be the best evidence yet of what the campaigns’ internal polling shows on this issue. Do note that Newt conspicuously passed on a golden opportunity to hit Romney on it yesterday.

Here’s the Hot Air/Townhall livetweet widget. Fox is going to solicit Twitter feedback tonight during the debate to track whether viewers think a candidate is answering a question or dodging it, so there’s one way to kinda sorta amuse yourself as debate fatigue sets in circa 9:05. Exit question: Is it racist to give money to someone in need? It is on MSNBC, apparently.



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Does that answer your question?

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 3:51 AM

heh. ownd.

29Victor on January 17, 2012 at 5:46 AM

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 3:51 AM

*golf clap*

Flora Duh on January 17, 2012 at 5:48 AM

I have to be honest. Nothing much happened in the debate tonight. I can’t see anything from tonight affecting the outcome in South Carolina this Saturday. Romney was very strong as usual, especially when talking about his private sector experience, social security and the threat of jihad. Gingrich did his usual. Perry tried, but didn’t make any kind of impression.

Um, and people on here are going crazy over erratic Newt’s blustery answer about putting 11-13-year-olds (!) to work as part-time janitors? Whatever the merits of putting children to work, it just seems a little inappropriate for a presidential candidate to be lecturing poor parents. The answer was delivered with flair, but Newt’s kooky, pompous routine wouldn’t go down well in a general election campaign. Oh, well… this will soon be forgotten.

Sigh. I wonder how many of you commenters on here get your opinions from radio talk show hosts. Seems like a lot of you all say the same things. It’s weird. And then you guys are so shocked when the primary election results come out, and you find out that (often the majority of) people see things differently than you.

I’m ready for this whole thing to be over. In less than a week, I think we’ll really feel the end near.

bluegill on January 17, 2012 at 5:48 AM

I wouldn’t doubt if Jeb Bush is the VP selection.

Dr. Tesla on January 17, 2012 at 12:55 AM

noooooooooo

cmsinaz on January 17, 2012 at 5:53 AM

My take.

kingsjester on January 17, 2012 at 6:41 AM

After watching every debate (sometimes twice) and reading everything I could get my hands on, or lay my eyes on, and agonizing over who I can get behind, I’ve finally decided on who I’m supporting for President – Newt Gingrich. Yes, there are some things I don’t like about him, yes, his past is fertile ground for criticism and attacks by the MSM and the Obama/Soros machine. But I’m comfortable with the knowledge that Gingrich can defend himself and his record. He’s head and shoulders above every candidate AND Barack Obama when it comes to history and intellect, he’s a great thinker and is able to come up with MANY ideas, some good, some maybe not, but he’s a helluva lot better than that dolt in the White House, whose only “solution” is to give him more money for him to piss away. Politically, it may be too late for Gingrich, but I would ask my friends and relatives in SC to give Newt their vote, and for the rest, I would ask that you send whatever you can in the way of a donation, to Newt Gingrich, as long as there’s a chance that he can win the nomination. This country can NOT survive 4 more years of Obama.

tmedlin on January 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM

ExpressoBold on January 17, 2012 at 12:30 AM

If someone here legally gives birth- the child isn’t an ‘anchor baby’.

annoyinglittletwerp on January 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM

kingsjester on January 17, 2012 at 6:41 AM

another good one KJ :)

cmsinaz on January 17, 2012 at 6:44 AM

This country can NOT survive 4 more years of Obama.

tmedlin on January 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM

As long as you remember that last sentence and appreciate that whoever wins the GOP nomination will be infinitely better than PBHO, I say mazel tov :-)

MJBrutus on January 17, 2012 at 6:46 AM

I’m voting for Ron Paul!

dom89031 on January 17, 2012 at 1:25 AM

Congratulations.

Cindy Munford on January 17, 2012 at 1:45 AM

LoL!

annoyinglittletwerp on January 17, 2012 at 6:47 AM

MJBrutus on January 17, 2012 at 6:46 AM

As long as it isn’t Luap Nor.

annoyinglittletwerp on January 17, 2012 at 6:48 AM

What’s so great about the center podium on the stage?!?

The Nerve on January 17, 2012 at 6:57 AM

cmsinaz on January 17, 2012 at 6:44 AM

Thank you, ma’am!

kingsjester on January 17, 2012 at 7:00 AM

What’s so great about the center podium on the stage?!?

The Nerve on January 17, 2012 at 6:57 AM

They reserve it for the most centrist candidate?

beatcanvas on January 17, 2012 at 7:02 AM

I might be the only one on Hot Air who loves the debates! I thought they all did well except for Paul. Newt and Rick Perry were the most impressive. Santorum next.

I wish Mitt and R Paul would drop out.

tinkerthinker on January 17, 2012 at 7:06 AM

tmedlin on January 17, 2012 at 6:42 AM

Excellent choice.

lynncgb on January 17, 2012 at 7:16 AM

Mitt really needs to do something about those sputtering speech spasms.

lynncgb on January 17, 2012 at 7:20 AM

Oh there’s that tool Frank Luntz. Time to change the channel.

kg598301 on January 16, 2012 at 11:02 PM

I like Frank. We have so few media types who like conservatives.

That said, I can’t stand his twin sister, Janet Napolitano. She and Fred Savage’s twin sister, Rachel Maddow, drive me crazy.

BuckeyeSam on January 16, 2012 at 11:11 PM

I always suspected he was a biased jerk, then I saw this:

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/01/frank-luntz-unplugged-%E2%80%9Cmichele-bachmann-is-glenn-close-from-fatal-attraction-video/

kg598301 on January 17, 2012 at 7:25 AM

This REP nominee process needs to change, it sucks!

After 2 po-dunk states have choosen their pick, a nominee is basically set up for the rest of us. Why not let all states vote at the same time for their choice of nominee.

purgatory on January 17, 2012 at 7:28 AM

Seriously, what more can we learn about these dwarfs?

Paul is unsane, period.

Willard is the Establishment pick who you cannot trust to hold a conservative line on anything and will be eaten up and spit out by Obama & the MFM. But that doesn’t seem to bother enough voters to matter, so thisn is likely the idiot the GOP will serve up as a “choice” in the fall. Some “choice”. Could be a breakthrough year for a write-in candidate…if you can get people an the same page. Good luck with that!

gNewt sounds great attacking MFM types and other loons, but is a Big Govt Repub who thinks Govt can still fix things…PASS!

Santorum comes across more like a reasonable everyday guy but the idiots on these debate panels seem only interested morality gotchya plays when people would like to hear more about his ideas.

Perry seems to be gaining traction in debates finally but is it all too little too late?

insidiator on January 17, 2012 at 7:38 AM

Gingrich was far superior in the debate, then Perry, then Santorum, then Paul and finally Mitt ‘Milquetoast’ Romney who came in dead last.

Pragmatic on January 17, 2012 at 7:39 AM

Gingrich is the fighter America needs and Perry knows how to govern as a conservative. Gingrich/Perry?

Pragmatic on January 17, 2012 at 7:40 AM

This morning’s article in the NYT is going to be a problem for Newt going forward; Probably not for South Carolina, but once the MSM gets its teeth into it, it will be. Newt Gingrich will be the new face of bigotry for the Republican party.

BettyRuth on January 17, 2012 at 7:41 AM

No to Romney now and then no to obama in november!

Pragmatic on January 17, 2012 at 7:41 AM

tinkerthinker: I wholeheartedly agree . . .Bot Mitt and Ron Paul need to go! Mitt is a Democrat and Ron Paul’s foreign policy ideas are dangerous for America.

Pragmatic on January 17, 2012 at 7:44 AM

I guess if I have to make a choice btwn Newt & Mitt, I’ll go for the guy who has been able to keep his d!ck in his pants.
I just cannot & will not abide a serial aldulterer.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:46 AM

insidiator on January 17, 2012 at 7:38 AM

Santorum surged in IA, likely winning it, with just a few days left til voting. It could happen. This cycle has prived that ANYTHING is possible. SC is the SOUTH, Perry is the ONLY Southerner in the race. SC loves the military, Perry is the only sane one who has served his couintry in uniform (Paul is INsane and doesn’t count, lol). SC is conservative and with the “war” they are having with the WH, I don’t think they want big government. We’ll see, but I’m still praying.

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 7:49 AM

BettyRuth on January 17, 2012 at 7:41 AM

Romney has media issues of his own, Betty.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 7:51 AM

Millionaire Mitt doesn’t even know the difference between moose and Elk.

To rich and privilege to understand the middle class

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:52 AM

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 7:49 AM

I cannot vote for a man who has such sympathy for illegals.
Bush had the same sympathy.
I only held my nose to vote for him.
No Perry for me.
Illegals have helped destroy this country as much as anything else.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:52 AM

This morning’s article in the NYT is going to be a problem for Newt going forward; Probably not for South Carolina, but once the MSM gets its teeth into it, it will be. Newt Gingrich will be the new face of bigotry for the Republican party.

BettyRuth on January 17, 2012 at 7:41 AM

As usual, the hilariously insecure Mittbots trying to annihilate a washed-up ex-Speaker who’s been giving the Inevitable HyperElectable SuperMitt problems.

ddrintn on January 17, 2012 at 7:53 AM

Millionaire Mitt doesn’t even know the difference between moose and Elk.

To rich and privilege to understand the middle class

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:52 AM

Stow it.
They are ALL rich.
I do not need a poor guy to be POTUS to ‘understand’ me.
Rich people are people, too. I don’t care if they know the difference btwn a moose or an elk.
That’s not what matters here.
Your class warfare attempt is pathetic.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:54 AM

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:52 AM

You do know that liberals groaned when you explained how you screwed up your screen name in open thread, right?

You also know that every time you post a comment they slap their foreheads hard enough to leave a red mark because you got in during the last registration and they didn’t. Right?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 7:56 AM

You do know that liberals groaned when you explained how you screwed up your screen name in open thread, right?

You also know that every time you post a comment they slap their foreheads hard enough to leave a red mark because you got in during the last registration and they didn’t. Right?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 7:56 AM

Millionaire Mitt (the Mexican) still hasn’t released his tax returns

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:59 AM

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 7:49 AM

Perry or Santorum, the rest are untrustworthy on too much. None are perfect, obviously, but these two I trust more with big decisions.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:52 AM

If not Perry, who?

insidiator on January 17, 2012 at 7:59 AM

Gingrich is the fighter America needs and Perry knows how to govern as a conservative. Gingrich/Perry?

Pragmatic on January 17, 2012 at 7:40 AM

I could accept that ticket.

annoyinglittletwerp on January 17, 2012 at 7:59 AM

Millionaire Mitt (the Mexican) still hasn’t released his tax returns

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:59 AM

And then you decided to bolster my comment with this?

A lot of liberals come here and actually engage in debate without trolling and name-calling. Have you considered it?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:02 AM

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:52 AM

The sympathy you talk of is the in-state tutition rate, right? Because it’s the ONLY “sympathetic” thing he’s ever done illegals. Plus, it was actually not at all about being “sympathetic” to them or loving them, or whatever — it was a pragmatic choice based on $$. Letting the children of illegals, who did not themselves break the law, qualify for the discount college rate, makes them better taxpayers ;)

Otherwise, he has shown them no “sympathy” what with signing the voter ID law and twice trying to get sanctuary cities banned (the legislature wouldn’t pass it to get to his desk either time).

But to me, his cons outweigh his pros big-time. He’s the only governor left in the race, and he sure isn’t a Democrat like Mittster. He knows jobs, jobs, jobs which is all this cycle is about. He loves the military and served in uniform. He’s been consistently pro-life and while Mitt was cozying up with Planned Parenthood, Perry was defunding them in Texas (which made them close 11 clinics in the state) and signing parental consent laws and requiring women to see a sonogram before having an abortion. He’s also the only one up there who has any grasp on the 10th amendment. The only one who wants a Balanced Budget Amendment.

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:03 AM

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:03 AM

*facepalm*! I obviously meant his “pros outweigh his cons big-time” I. Need. Coffee. Or Red Bull. Or something!

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:05 AM

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:03 AM

I like Perry. Glad he stayed in the primaries. I wish him well in the primaries. But, there is not a justifiable reason to give in-state tuition to the children of illegal aliens. If it is not throwing support behind their motivations for staying here, it is at least extending a privilege to them that legal Americans do not have.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:11 AM

Gingrich hit it out of the park last night.
Perry did very well; I was impressed and wish him well.

Best of all: Romney – even after a strong start, aided by sycophantic press – stumbled, fumbled and FAILED.

Czar of Defenestration on January 17, 2012 at 8:15 AM

What do you think Mitt Romney pays in Taxes. My guess is less than 15% or we would have seen the returns.Offshore Accounts and Trusts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VddqzmpfJSU

CoolChange80 on January 17, 2012 at 4:17 AM

Am I the only one who is nervous about him not releasing his tax returns? I don’t care how rich he is, but April is a little late for us to find out there’s anything squirrelly in there the Dems will make hay out of. Stalling on this now does not give me a lot of reassurance.

kg598301 on January 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:11 AM

That’s not true at all. Legal Americans can ALSO qualify for the in-state tuition rate in Texas AND they actually have an easier time of it, too. Children of illegals have to have lived in TX for three years. Out-of-staters only have to live in TX for one year. There are other requirements the illegals have to meet beside that.

If the government would just do their JOB and actually deport them, this wouldn’t be an issue for states to face (and it’s now a dozen such states besides TX who allow in-state rates for illegals). States catch illegals, turn them over to ICE, and ICE puts them right back on the street. Oy.

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:17 AM

I’m sorry Aslans Girl, but I have no compassion for illegals, nor their children.
Life sucks.
IMO, any extension of liberty to illegals is a no in my book.
But if he were the nominee, I would most certainly vote for him.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM

I really don’t think it was out of “compassion” (it was about $$). Perry is not a “compassionate conservative”. I wouldn’t support him if he was. We went down that road with Bush, and I hated it then; then we lost the Congress and WH because of it.

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:24 AM

Millionaire Mitt (the Mexican) still hasn’t released his tax returns

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:59 AM

When asked I wish Mitt would say -

“I just don’t see how my tax returns are any of your business.”

shinty on January 17, 2012 at 8:25 AM

Aslan, If I move to Texas for a year, I’m a resident. We’re talking about a student who lives in PA and thinks Texas A&M is his dream. He applies in the Spring. He’s not getting in-state tuition in the Fall.

And an illegal alien only needs an address and a statement that they’ve lived there. It is presented in the form of an affidavit and it is not verifiable. They are not turned down. Said PA Senior from PA signing such an affidavit would be in a much less tenable position.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:26 AM

But if he were the nominee, I would most certainly vote for him.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 8:22 AM

Same here. With a bit of enthusiasm. But you’re right, consigning ourselves to their mistakes in legislation isn’t going to solve any of the problem we’re facing. Doing nothing with regards to that tuition issue would have been better. Texas House Bill 1403 lends credibility to their claims of status.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:30 AM

Um, and people on here are going crazy over erratic Newt’s blustery answer about putting 11-13-year-olds (!)

bluegill on January 17, 2012 at 5:48 AM

Yeah, that is more populism nonsense from him. The glaring flaw is that working children in an environment like janitorial would be problematic. Also a supervisor, or two, or three, would have to be hired to supervise them. Most of Gingrich’s plans would necessitate a bigger government.

csdeven on January 17, 2012 at 8:33 AM

This is the everlasting gobstopper of threads, it just keeps going and and going.

Bishop on January 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM

And an illegal alien only needs an address and a statement that they’ve lived there. It is presented in the form of an affidavit and it is not verifiable. They are not turned down. Said PA Senior from PA signing such an affidavit would be in a much less tenable position.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:26 AM

You can dislike him for this reason, that’s what primaries are for.

Your premise is a little disingenuous though. These aren’t teenagers coming across the river to get in-state tuition. These are kids who have been here almost their entire life. They are more American that south of the border types. They don’t get special consideration when they get this in state tuition, it not like affirmative action. They aren’t taking slots away from citizens. The numbers are small in comparison to the numbers in Texas higher education. Until things change, they ain’t goin’ away either. They will be either be educated, or not, but they will still be here.

I may be a little biased, I grew up with a lot of these kids. I now see a lot of the next generation when I volunteer at my daughter’s school. Like kids who are citizens, some a good and some aren’t. If they’re gonna’ be here, I would prefer for them to be educated.

And y’all think (or intentionally promote in an attempt to destroy Perry) this is something Perry came up with. Its not, he was going with the flow of the state of Texas when he signed this.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:41 AM

This is the everlasting gobstopper of threads, it just keeps going and and going.

Bishop on January 17, 2012 at 8:38 AM

It’s mainly because of all the bold new ground broken in information that the candidates provide with each and every new GOP debate.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:43 AM

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:41 AM

I didn’t say I dislike anybody. I didn’t like that legislation. I’m trying to be pragmatic about a possible candidate that I may have to vote for. Other that your personal association with some of the students who benefit from the legislation, what is disingenuous about what I wrote?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:47 AM

They aren’t taking slots away from citizens.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:41 AM

I was to understand the children of illegals were not citizens.

I really don’t think it was out of “compassion” (it was about $$). Perry is not a “compassionate conservative”. I wouldn’t support him if he was. We went down that road with Bush, and I hated it then; then we lost the Congress and WH because of it.

Aslans Girl on January 17, 2012 at 8:24 AM

I remember Perry exploding about people not having a ‘heart’ concerning these aliens.
If that isn’t alluding to compassion, IDK what is.
hawkdriver: I agree with you. I do not think anything you’ve said is disingenuous.
Perry isn’t a bad guy.
I like him better on some things than I did Bush. And I thought Bush was a helluva man.
I just personally have a problem with giving illegals ANY foot in the door.
This is where I stand on that issue.
Romney isn’t much better.
But for now, I personally take him over Perry.
It’s just how it is.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 8:57 AM

what is disingenuous about what I wrote?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:47 AM

But, there is not a justifiable reason to give in-state tuition to the children of illegal aliens. If it is not throwing support behind their motivations for staying here, it is at least extending a privilege to them that legal Americans do not have.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:11 AM

-There are many justifiable reasons to support this.
-It is not extending a privilege that other Americans do not have. The example you gave about you wanting to be an Aggie doesn’t work. Those kids have been here for many years. They don’t need to commit fraud to show residence.

Compared to what some others have written, your mistakes about the program are mild. But then, at the time, most Texans considered this entire program mild.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:58 AM

I was to understand the children of illegals were not citizens.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 8:57 AM

In that, you understand correctly, about the rest of the program…not so much.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:00 AM

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:58 AM

What mistakes?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:03 AM

In that, you understand correctly, about the rest of the program…not so much.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:00 AM

Is it true that the child of an illegal can get in state tuition & assistance?
Is it true than an out of state US citizen must pay the out of state tuition rate?
Is the answer is yes to both questions, then this is a problem & most certainly does displace citizens.
If not, the underlying point is that we are giving legitimacy to illegal aliens. It doesn’t matter how they got here.
They should not be allowed to:
1. Receive any public assistance in the form of $$ or services from any government agency.
2. Vote
3. Drive/get a license
4. work for anyone
5. Sell anything/run a business
6. Rent an abode, buy services or products (altho the latter admittedly is too hard to catch)
7. Send $$ from Wal-Mart out of the country etcetera

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:10 AM

What mistakes?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:03 AM

The one’s I pointed out in your own quote.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:13 AM

I wouldn’t doubt if Jeb Bush is the VP selection.

Dr. Tesla on January 17, 2012 at 12:55 AM
noooooooooo

cmsinaz on January 17, 2012 at 5:53 AM

I would barf!

KOOLAID2 on January 17, 2012 at 9:16 AM

Is it true than an out of state US citizen must pay the out of state tuition rate?

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:10 AM

The smart one’s come to Texas for a year first.

About the rest (except for number 7, that one is kind of dumb), so what? That stuff is being done now. I don’t like it, but the current administration is suing states that are trying to do something about it. Are you trying to blame that on Perry too?

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:18 AM

The one’s I pointed out in your own quote.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:13 AM

I don’t see any mistakes there. Look, I like you comments. Have always. I like Perry. I could support him easy. I’m not sure what you’d read in I wrote would have even prompted you to infer I disliked or were trying to destroy Perry. I don’t like any legislation like this and I’m not going to buy into every bit of a candidates platform if they’re wrong.

This legislation is bad for all the reasons I stated and there is researched data that the concerns I have are already coming to fruition in your very state. Those students you’ve educated as residents having graduated with degrees and professional skill are now not able to get jobs in their fields due to their very status. So, what would the next logical step in legislation be?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:21 AM

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:10 AM

And no, they ain’t takin’ a slot from a citizen. There is room and Texas higher education is growing. That may change in a few years if the next Texas educational program comes to fruition; A $10,000 BA degree. And yeah, this one is Perry’s fault.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:21 AM

Millionaire Mitt (the Mexican) still hasn’t released his tax returns

liberal4life on January 17, 2012 at 7:59 AM
When asked I wish Mitt would say -

“I just don’t see how my tax returns are any of your business.”

shinty on January 17, 2012 at 8:25 AM

….As lobotomy4life screams on every thread for JugEars tax returns, and college transcripts!

KOOLAID2 on January 17, 2012 at 9:21 AM

I wouldn’t doubt if Jeb Bush is the VP selection.

Dr. Tesla on January 17, 2012 at 12:55 AM

Bob McDonnell

BacaDog on January 17, 2012 at 9:21 AM

I’m not sure what you’d read in I wrote would have even prompted you to infer I disliked or were trying to destroy Perry.
hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:21 AM

I didn’t write that you disliked Perry. What I wrote was:

Compared to what some others have written, your mistakes about the program are mild. But then, at the time, most Texans considered this entire program mild.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:58 AM

The program is what it is. You can dislike it just for being. There was a couple of mistakes in what you wrote, and I explained differently. There are some folks who are making this out to the end of the world.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:25 AM

A lot of liberals come here and actually engage in debate without trolling and name-calling. Have you considered it?

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:02 AM

Oh gosh hawkdriver… don’t make me feel bad and put me on a guilt trip, for calling lobotomy4life… names.

KOOLAID2 on January 17, 2012 at 9:26 AM

I didn’t write that you disliked Perry. What I wrote was:

I was referring to this comment.

You can dislike him for this reason, that’s what primaries are for.

There was a couple of mistakes in what you wrote, and I explained differently. There are some folks who are making this out to the end of the world.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:25 AM

Again, unless you cite what the mistakes are, I have no idea what you’re referring to. My claim is that the legislation allows someone who is already breaking US Federal law to merely submit an affidavit claiming to live in Texas for three years. A US Citizen has a requirement of moving there for a year. The program adds credibility to their claims of status. Data already proves this.

We can differ on whether we agree on the measures your state took, but I’m aware of anything I’ve based my opinion on that is fallacious.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:33 AM

“not” aware …

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:35 AM

KOOLAID2 on January 17, 2012 at 9:26 AM

Sorry, :-)

I guess I just try really hard not to. The debate here can take a nosedive in civility so quickly, I just don’t see where it ever adds anything. We’ve all done it at sometime though. That one, lib4life, uses names as a debate tactic though.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:37 AM

Here we go again. Now there’s talk about putting a “conservative” as a VP to bolster Romney’s chances. Didn’t we try this before in 2008 and that didn’t work out too well. Why don’t we put a solid conservative on top instead?! But no, I’m beginning to see more and more that the republican establishment will never work to have a strong conservative as a candidate. Reagan was a fluke and they’ve been pushing their country club candidates ever since. Why else fix the primaries so that all the candidates can’t appear on the ballots (hello Virginia, D.C., Rhode Island, Illinois, etc.). It’s disgusting seeing how the establishment are using pages from the democrat dirty campaign playbook against fellow republicans. I even see Alinsky methods being used by the Romney team. Blech!

mozalf on January 17, 2012 at 9:40 AM

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:33 AM

You can find data to prove anything. I have seen data that the actual number of illegals going to college is smaller than originally thought. And that trade schools are the main beneficiary of this program. All the data is just data. No conclusions have been drawn. I have had an interest in this for years, and I haven’t drawn a conclusion.

The line about dislike was intended to be taken that you dislike him as a candidate. The opposite of like.

But, there is not a justifiable reason to give in-state tuition to the children of illegal aliens. If it is not throwing support behind their motivations for staying here, it is at least extending a privilege to them that legal Americans do not have.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 8:11 AM

-There are many justifiable reasons to support this.
-It is not extending a privilege that other Americans do not have. The example you gave about you wanting to be an Aggie doesn’t work. Those kids have been here for many years. They don’t need to commit fraud to show residence.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:58 AM

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:45 AM

The smart one’s come to Texas for a year first.

About the rest (except for number 7, that one is kind of dumb), so what? That stuff is being done now. I don’t like it, but the current administration is suing states that are trying to do something about it. Are you trying to blame that on Perry too?

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:18 AM

I’m not trying to attack PErry. I have legitimate concerns about him regarding illegal aliens.
The fact that you’re getting testy with my numerous questions regarding his activities alerts me to the possibility you have blinders on for the guy.
hawkdriver & I have legitimate concerns.
You getting in a huff about them only makes me more suspicious.
Luckily, I do not base my support solely off of how well you address my concerns.
I like the guy, as I have stated.
I just have a lot of concerns regarding anyone who supports illegals in any way shape or form.
For now, I prefer Romney as the nominee.
But this is no choice.
Rather, it’s forced.
I truly hate it.
But I’m not picking PErry right now.
PErhaps I’ll change my mind.
But you’re haranging me for having questions is not helping.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:46 AM

There are many justifiable reasons to support this.
-It is not extending a privilege that other Americans do not have. The example you gave about you wanting to be an Aggie doesn’t work. Those kids have been here for many years. They don’t need to commit fraud to show residence.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 8:58 AM

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:45 AM

Extending a privilege to an illegal alien that a citizen has is BAD, IMO.
You start justifying things like this, you can justify all sorts of other things,too.
If Perry had been dragged kicking & screaming to support this, OK.
But it seems as if he supports it willingly.
‘I find this sort of thing TO BE A PROBLEM.
Hence, my vote goers elsewhere at this time.
There is nothing wrong with me or hawdriver taking a stand on this.
Having lived in Texas for many years, I have a lot of distaste for supporting illegals.
In fact, quite frankly, it PI$$E$ me off that people are willing to just throw their hands up in the air, say things like ‘We can’t deport them all’. So what, we give them some of the keys to the city?
I have a problem with this.
I’ve watched illegals not only in Texas, but is SoCal where I used to live as a child, and in many other states I’ve lived in live off the public dole while CITIZENS get refused services bcs there’s not enough $$ to go around.
So illegals DO displace citizens eventually.
THIS IS A PROBLEM.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM

I have to be honest. Nothing much happened in the debate tonight. I can’t see anything from tonight affecting the outcome in South Carolina this Saturday. Romney was very strong as usual, especially when talking about his private sector experience, social security and the threat of jihad. Gingrich did his usual. Perry tried, but didn’t make any kind of impression.

Um, and people on here are going crazy over erratic Newt’s blustery answer about putting 11-13-year-olds (!) to work as part-time janitors? Whatever the merits of putting children to work, it just seems a little inappropriate for a presidential candidate to be lecturing poor parents. The answer was delivered with flair, but Newt’s kooky, pompous routine wouldn’t go down well in a general election campaign. Oh, well… this will soon be forgotten.

Sigh. I wonder how many of you commenters on here get your opinions from radio talk show hosts. Seems like a lot of you all say the same things. It’s weird. And then you guys are so shocked when the primary election results come out, and you find out that (often the majority of) people see things differently than you.

I’m ready for this whole thing to be over. In less than a week, I think we’ll really feel the end near.

bluegill on January 17, 2012 at 5:48 AM

The VP choice in 2008 worked out quite well, thank you very much!
McCain was leading slightly with the help of Palin (until Palin was chosen to be VP candidate he was losing badly) until the
financial crisis debacle where he made an ass of himself.

If Romney is the nominee he will need a redstate politician
to be VP candidate. The people in the south do not like and do not
trust him. For years now. That will not be easy to overcome.

The only thing Romney has going for him with the conservative vote
is that Obama is disliked more.

Amjean on January 17, 2012 at 9:52 AM

But you’re haranging me for having questions is not helping.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:46 AM

Sorry bud, I haven’t supported Perry since his first run for governor. I was active in Debra Medina’s run to defeat him in the last election.

I ain’t no Perry shill. I know what happens in Texas. I defend Texas against ignorant attacks.

I went after you for your question number seven. That is more of a government intrusion than anything perry ever suggested and that includes Gardasil and the TTC.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM

Okay, but you didn’t say dislike him as a candidate. Immaterial.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/education/headlines/20100314-Number-of-illegal-immigrants-getting-in-9925.ece

The linked article provide quite a bit of the information I’ve been talking about. There are other articles written that cite the same conclusions. The data to claims comes directly from your Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board.

And it’s not just the slots for students here or the patently unfair advantage that an illegal student would have in demonstrating residency that is a fact to take issue with. Funds are involved too. Funds that are directed to an illegal student are directed from US students and it could make a difference in whether they can attend or not.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:56 AM

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 9:46 AM

How did Mitt Romney handle illegal aliens in Massachusetts when he was governor? Did he deport them all, and to this day there no illegal aliens living in Massachussetts?

That wouldn’t explain Barack Obama’s Aunty or Uncle.

People listen to what Mitt Romney’s says but they ignore what he does or doesn’t do. Talk is cheap enough. Mitt Romney will say, and be whoever he needs to be to become President.

Dr Evil on January 17, 2012 at 10:00 AM

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:56 AM

I know that article and have read it many times.

Look at the stats. Notice that it is for students enrolled, not graduated. Also look at the number for those in trade schools rather than universities. Look at where the detractors are, and what they have for data. Then, here’s the kicker, check out a catalog for Texas universities. And the price difference between in state, out of state and foreign students. Even back in the day when I was in college, many people came to Texas from out of state because it was less expensive to go to Texas schools than in their home state.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 10:04 AM

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 9:56 AM

I agree there is no reason to give them in state tuition rates. What kind of tuition does a foreign exchange student receive? That would be the “fairest” measurement to apply to them. It’s the closest I can think of to their illegal status.

It takes I.C.E. and the federal government to do something about the illegal population inside this country. When states try to enforce our immigration laws to mirror the federal law, Eric Holder sues them.

Dr Evil on January 17, 2012 at 10:05 AM

Sorry bud, I haven’t supported Perry since his first run for governor. I was active in Debra Medina’s run to defeat him in the last election.

I ain’t no Perry shill. I know what happens in Texas. I defend Texas against ignorant attacks.

I went after you for your question number seven. That is more of a government intrusion than anything perry ever suggested and that includes Gardasil and the TTC.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 9:54 AM

I’m not a bud, I am a woman.
I did not say you were a shill.
I’m not a shill for Romney, myself.
But you obviously consider some things worse in Romney over Perry & I the other way around.
I think personally they both suck.
I personally liked Sarah Palin much better than all of them.
I am trying to wade through the muck & pick the least worst candidate.
And you’re thinly veiled irritation regarding my questions is unhelpful.
And I am not ATTACKING THE STATE OF TEXAS.
Geebus.
Get over it already.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:06 AM

That would be the “fairest” measurement to apply to them. It’s the closest I can think of to their illegal status.

It takes I.C.E. and the federal government to do something about the illegal population inside this country. When states try to enforce our immigration laws to mirror the federal law, Eric Holder sues them.

Dr Evil on January 17, 2012 at 10:05 AM

I personally don’t think they should be allowed to attend college AT ALL.
You give them an inch they go for the mile.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:07 AM

People listen to what Mitt Romney’s says but they ignore what he does or doesn’t do. Talk is cheap enough. Mitt Romney will say, and be whoever he needs to be to become President.

Dr Evil on January 17, 2012 at 10:00 AM

I’m not saying Mitt’s much better.
I just prefer him at this point.
It’s his business acumen I’m really interested in at this point.
I just like him better than Perry.
Like I said, I think they both suck.
It’s really a choice btwn 2 turds.
Mitt smells just a bit better to me.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:10 AM

And I need to delve further into Mitt’s illegal stance on things.
My primary date is the beginning of summer. I have some time.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:12 AM

Dr Evil on January 17, 2012 at 10:05 AM

Lots of good points there. I’m more in Badgers line of thinking about not extending anything to them in this manner. But you provide other good points that simply cannot be argued against in their truth. The federal government needs to fix this. Amnesty is not the answer which is the elephant in the room that is the result of any legislation like this.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 10:14 AM

And you’re thinly veiled irritation regarding my questions is unhelpful.
And I am not ATTACKING THE STATE OF TEXAS.
Geebus.
Get over it already.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:06 AM

Me irritated, never (well, almost never, some nutballs bring me to the edge of irritation). I try to be helpful first.

I ain’t the one irritated to the point of repeating fallacies for something going on in other states. Or promoting laws that would be frightening if implemented like your suggestion in your question seven. I would be okay with a Romney candidacy and cannot remember going after Romney (his nutball supporters is another matter), I find myself defending him more than Perry these days.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 10:17 AM

Amnesty is not the answer which is the elephant in the room that is the result of any legislation like this.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 10:14 AM

Agreed.
I am really going to have to weigh in on not just the alien question, but AGW stance, social conservatism vs Constitutional powers, health care issues, business world experience vs government executive experience, etc.
But really the biggest thing here is, who is a LEADER.
And I don’t get that from any of the candidates really, except for Mitt.
And people like to polarize him so much, I wonder if anyone will agree to work with him at all anyway.
Reagan was infectious.
Great leadership material.
It’s hard to find another like that willing to step up to the plate.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:18 AM

This may surprise you but I’m not planning on voting b/c I’m not registered to vote b/c I have not registered my car in my new state of residence b/c I don’t want to pay the DMV’s Welcome Tax. :)

I’m a Santorum supporter. I know, I hate gays. Let’s not explore that.

Dr. Tesla on January 17, 2012 at 1:53 AM

Hey dude, for a guy who has so many opinions, it bothers me that you give up your franchise that easily. The “welcome tax” is an ugly fact, and I have had to pay it on all my cars. But if you have moved from state to state, there is an entrance price to be paid, by law, agree with it or not. If this is enough to make you give up your participation in choosing our leaders, then maybe you should choose a different state without such a high vehicle-entrance tax and move. Or maybe, as you are already comfortable with illegally driving your car(s) around (and make no mistake – it is illegal for you to be doing this), you should do a couple false sales and underwrite the value of your car(s) until the tax has been sufficiently reduced to equal the value of your vote.

For you to not vote because you want to continue to flout the law of your new state is not being a good citizen. But, seeing as how you swing about yourself here, maybe you just want to pick and choose which laws you deign to obey.

Sorry if this comes across as an attack, but it bugs me when people set their own laws.

cane_loader on January 17, 2012 at 10:21 AM

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:10 AM

Mitt’s been at this longer he’s been running for 5 years. He’s has his sales pitch down pat. The problem is when anyone tries to probe his sales pitch for substance. I am in the camp where he could have used his tenure at Bain Capital to show: SEE I know how capitalism works, I’ve been involved in the business industry for years…instead he knows the issue nationally is “Jobs” so he states, okay my tenure at Bain Capital makes me a job creator. I doubt seriously that the mission statement at Bain Capital equity firm, was in the business of creating jobs. IT’s an example of Mitt Romney being whatever he needs to be to get elected. It’s like padding a resume. I think his resume is what it is, and he should run on his record as Governor and in Private Sector. Mitt’s got his slick sales rap down. It’s up to voters to figure out if there is any there-there.

It’s possible that Mitt Romney actually lost Iowa by 80 votes that means after 5 years of running, and being the front runner in this primary he couldn’t close the deal in Iowa, and add any voters from when he ran in 2008. We wouldn’t know that going by the media coverage – the campaign analysis has been about as deep as a Dixie cup.

Mitt’s only got 25 delegates so far but for some reason that’s enough for the media to declare he’s the presumptive nominee…
A candidate must accumulate 1,144 delegate votes to win.

Dr Evil on January 17, 2012 at 10:33 AM

the ballerina was my favborite. and the general. though a bit tragic as well. the clown with the british accent was interesting in an odd way. the tramp and the bagpipie dude, meh.

t8stlikchkn on January 17, 2012 at 10:41 AM

I guess if I have to make a choice btwn Newt & Mitt, I’ll go for the guy who has been able to keep his d!ck in his pants.
I just cannot & will not abide a serial aldulterer.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:46 AM

If elected, which is as likely as finding an iceberg on the surface of the sun, your non-adulterer will rape your health, wallet and your children’s future. If nominated RINO Willard will find it difficult to distinguish himself from Obama and will find his polling collapse when the under the table attacks on LDS start in earnest. The Dems will not hold back like McCain did with Wright.

Annar on January 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM

Annar on January 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM

Bad reaction to the Gardasil, huh.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 10:45 AM

Bad reaction to the Gardasil, huh.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 10:45 AM

You must be a frustrated Bachmann supporter.

Annar on January 17, 2012 at 10:57 AM

Geez.

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 11:01 AM

You must be a frustrated Bachmann supporter.

Annar on January 17, 2012 at 10:57 AM

I take it you aren’t real big on being able to pay attention.

cozmo on January 17, 2012 at 11:04 AM

I guess if I have to make a choice btwn Newt & Mitt, I’ll go for the guy who has been able to keep his d!ck in his pants.
I just cannot & will not abide a serial aldulterer.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 7:46 AM

Well, you could vote for Obama, if that is your qualifier.

stenwin77 on January 17, 2012 at 11:20 AM

And I need to delve further into Mitt’s illegal stance on things.
My primary date is the beginning of summer. I have some time.

Badger40 on January 17, 2012 at 10:12 AM

Mitt lies. You can NOT trust anything he says.

stenwin77 on January 17, 2012 at 11:22 AM

I’m finding this whole inevitably thing a bit disturbing. Romney expected to sweep all 50 states. Yeah, sure if the other candidates are being “disqualified” on technicalities. One of the most important elections in our lifetime (so we’re being told) and those of use in Virginia, D.C., Rhode Island, etc. aren’t being given the opportunity to vote for the best candidates. It’s like we’ve gone back to the Soviet Union or we’re in Venezuela. I hate to say it, but it even reminds me of when Saddam would sweep his opponents it’s that creepy to me. The republican parties – albeit state or national are a disgrace for allowing this to happen. It’s we the people not we the moneyed people.

mozalf on January 17, 2012 at 11:27 AM

Just a quick note here as I READ the debate transcript. I thought Gingrich did well. I thought Perry sounded better but at times you can tell he is searching for something substantive to say as he speaks but still better than his first few debates. Paul was Paul and good on Domestic issues but is just plain naive on foreign policy from someone that is sitting overseas in AFG and NO I do not support him as a military member. I do not who these military members are because I literally have not ran into ONE Paul supporter over here in my area. Romney, I thought was strong and he handled the attacks from everyone well.
One comment on the tax issue. I think it is RIDICULOUS for the candidates to ask this NOW. It has NEVER happened in the Primaries before and the other candidates are just “attempting”, albeit weakly, to use this as a wedge issue ONLY because they are losing. They know that there will be nothing in there that is earth shattering. They should be more strenuous towards a current occupant in the WH that has released ALMOST ZERO papers on his past. I believe Romney will release them IF and WHEN he is the nominee…BUT if he doesn’t there is nothing that say he has to release his returns and most Americans I believe do not care.

Well, I better get out of here before Doc Tesla gets on and starts spamming.

Good nite all from the Hindu Kush!

PS It is good to see you Hawkdriver as I have not seen you on here in awhile.

g2825m on January 17, 2012 at 11:45 AM

Good nite all from the Hindu Kush!

PS It is good to see you Hawkdriver as I have not seen you on here in awhile.

g2825m on January 17, 2012 at 11:45 AM

Great rundown from the Kush. Keep your head down too. :-)

hawkdriver on January 17, 2012 at 11:48 AM

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