Quotes of the day

posted at 9:30 pm on January 14, 2012 by Allahpundit

“Yet the act of desecrating an enemy’s body is as old as war, perhaps most famously described by Homer in ‘The Iliad,’ when Achilles drags Hector’s lifeless body behind his chariot before the eyes of a shocked and despairing Troy. Nancy Sherman, a professor of philosophy at Georgetown University who has written a book about the moral implications of war on troops, ‘The Untold War,’ said dehumanizing the enemy can be a psychological defense mechanism for the troops whose job is to kill that enemy…

“Mr. Exum said black humor is another coping mechanism for young troops trying to act tough beyond their years. ‘I remember being a young officer in Afghanistan in 2002 and standing over the body of this partially decapitated Taliban and cracking jokes,’ he said. ‘Humor is how we cope with pretty horrific stuff. It’s almost dangerous to be too sensitive.’

“Alex Lemons, a Marine scout sniper during the fierce fighting in the Iraqi city of Falluja in 2004, said that on several occasions he encountered American troops who either urinated on insurgent bodies or manipulated them for photographs, like putting them in ridiculous poses. While he called such behavior disgusting, he also said it could be cathartic.

“‘I’ve never spat on a dead body or urinated on one, but I’ve certainly screamed at a dead body because they’ve taken a friend’s life,’ said Mr. Lemons, who left the Marine Corps in 2008.”

***

“But what possible benefit does desecrating enemy corpses serve? — other than to radicalize other terrorists — and to provide our enemies with talking points and propaganda photos? (Oh yeah, it also fosters the notion that America is no different from the rest of the barbaric world — that we are simply about imposing our power, not liberating oppressed people or defending our citizens.)

“In a perfect world, our warriors would operate clinically. Like professionals, they would follow orders, dispassionately removing cancers, never allowing emotion to creep into their decisions. It is understandable, of course, that men — faced with the horrors of war (our enemies are evil people who do horrible things!) — sometimes fall far short of that high standard.

“But this was dancing in the end zone.”

***

“There is a final context for this act in which we are all responsible, all guilty. A 19-year-old Marine has a very hard time reconciling the fact that it’s okay to waterboard a live Taliban fighter but not okay to urinate on a dead one.

“When the war on terror started, the Marines in that video were probably 9 or 10 years old. As children they heard adults — and political leaders — talk about our enemies in the most inhuman terms. The Internet and the news media are filled with self-important men and women referring to our enemies as animals that deserve little legal or moral consideration. We have sent enemy fighters to countries like Syria and Libya to be tortured by the very regimes that we have recently condemned for engaging in war crimes and torture. They have been tortured into confessing their crimes and then locked up indefinitely without trial because their confessions — achieved through torture — will not stand up in court.

“For the past 10 years, American children have absorbed these moral contradictions, and now they are fighting our wars. The video doesn’t surprise me, but it makes me incredibly sad — not just for them, but also for us. We may prosecute these men for desecrating the dead while maintaining that it is okay to torture the living.

“I hope someone else knows how to explain that to our soldiers, because I don’t have the faintest idea.”

***

“Initially there were concerns that outrage over the issue would spiral into a scandal like the one in 2004 over the release of photos showing a group of U.S. military police abusing prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq…

“But Afghan officials and others said the quick responses by all sides had helped contain the damage.

“‘As all three sides — the U.S., the Afghan government and the Taliban — have all condemned this act, I’m hopeful that this will not have any effect on the peace process,’ Abdul Hakim Mujahid, a member of the peace council and the Taliban’s former envoy to the United Nations, said Saturday…

“‘Reconciliation is a big change for the people of Afghanistan and it won’t be affected by the actions of individuals like those in the video,’ Taliban spokesman Zabiullah Mujahid told The Associated Press on Friday. ‘We are focused on the bigger picture and for that, we have to avoid small things.’”

***

“‘It’s insane,’ says an Afghan [Taliban] sub-commander in Helmand province where the urination incident allegedly took place last year. ‘Why are we talking to those who hate us so much that they desecrate our martyrs’ bodies?’ he asks angrily in a phone conversation with The Daily Beast. His anger extends to the Taliban’s negotiators in Qatar. ‘To me those who claim to represent the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan in these talks are dishonoring the rivers of blood we have shed,’ he says. ‘This act is worse than that of animals,’ adds the sub-commander who declines to be named for security reasons. ‘They showed no shame.’

“Jan Mohammad Khan, a Taliban fighter in eastern Afghanistan, says the video affected him more than all the carnage that he’s seen in his 10 years in the jihad. ‘I have never hurt so much as I did when I saw this video,’ he says. ‘These Americans have crossed the borders of civilization and humanity by disrespecting the dead.’…

“The former translator who lives in Kabul with his family says the video has outraged even his normally calm and moderate father. ‘This morning my father was so angry that he ordered me to burn any money I may still have from the Americans as it was a sin to keep it,’ he says. ‘If this action has so angered my father it will certainly anger other common Afghans.’ If so the already difficult fledgling peace process has just become even more complicated.”

***

***

Via the Daily Caller.


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“In a perfect world, our warriors would operate clinically. Like professionals, they would follow orders, dispassionately removing cancers, never allowing emotion to creep into their decisions.”

Hogwash. This would make them mindless zombies. This would make them like Arnold the Terminator. Mindless. Or Arnold the Governor – same thing.

Carthoris on January 14, 2012 at 9:40 PM

You mean like Democrats? h/t Bob Hope

Flora Duh on January 15, 2012 at 1:01 AM

I stand by my original opinion.

McDuck on January 15, 2012 at 1:00 AM

I’m not surprised.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:01 AM

Hornet?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:01 AM

Your kidding..right? We used to shove 101st flags up a dead gooks ass (we’d put then in the kneeling position) just to pay em back…they did much worse to us…grow up morons…its war.

tractah on January 15, 2012 at 1:02 AM

Yep, pretty strange watching someone reduce themselves to troll status before your eyes.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 12:58 AM

Getting back to the subject of first cousins, as I did above, as in the Afghans, isn’t the “Troll Card” a first cousin to the “Race Card”? Yes, I believe so.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:02 AM

Have you actually been to Afghanistan? Because if you haven’t, you have no right to say that. Unless you’ve been there, and drank tea with them and petted their goats, your opinion isn’t worth squat!

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 12:52 AM

An uninformed opinion is still worth something, but not much.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:03 AM

Your kidding..right? We used to shove 101st flags up a dead gooks ass (we’d put then in the kneeling position) just to pay em back…they did much worse to us…grow up morons…its war.

tractah on January 15, 2012 at 1:02 AM

Uh oh.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:03 AM

Your kidding..right? We used to shove 101st flags up a dead gooks ass (we’d put then in the kneeling position) just to pay em back…they did much worse to us…grow up morons…its war.

tractah on January 15, 2012 at 1:02 AM

It was wrong then. Its wrong now. Time hasn’t changed much.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:05 AM

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:02 AM

Yeah, it can be. Great point. That’s why you’d want to make sure what the commenter was offering was pure nonsense before making a comment like that.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:06 AM

You know what’s really asinine?

Taking Col. West’s statement out of context.

He was telling the hand wringing lefties to shut up about the video, calling it faux outrage.

And some people deliberately misconstrued what he said as an attack on first amendment rights. And anyone who agreed with him was allegedly doing the same thing in their self righteous book so they resorted to attacking them too.

I find that asinine and disingenuous.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:07 AM

I’m on the side of our troops here. Yes it was bad form but completely understandable.Being politically correct here is a waste of time. Of course that is just my opinion… Go Niners!… Sorry for that but they are my local team!

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:10 AM

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:10 AM

You’re not allowed to have an opinion on this unless you’ve served /sarc

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:11 AM

As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:11 AM

That’s why you’d want to make sure what the commenter was offering was pure nonsense before making a comment like that.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:06 AM

Calling a live person a troll is closer to a greater atrocity against all humanity than is wizzing on a stone dead goat fornicator.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:12 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 12:52 AM

Obama has been there and likely done all that and I still don’t give a damn about anything he says.

Still, all are free to all opinions in the U.S. It’s (still) a free country.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:13 AM

As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:11 AM

The Taliban, not exactly the best shots in the world, have shot in my direction many times, I am sure. Fortunately I was out of range.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM

And some people still persist in taking Col. West’s comment out of context.

I find that akin to calumny.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:16 AM

You’re not allowed to have an opinion on this unless you’ve served /sarc

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:11 AM

You say that now as if you’re kidding, but you said it on the other thread seriously to people condemning the behavior.

What you’re asserting is the exact opposite of what I said and frankly as disingenuous as you’ve charged others to be.

My point is that you’re expressly allowed to voice that opinion. You have that right as an American with no additional requirement for having been in a combat zone. So does Tina Kobe. As a matter of fact, it’s her job to give opinion. And I find it the epitome of ironic on a thread where the subject is a respected man telling others they have no right an opinion if they have not served, it is filled with people who have not served telling others they have no right to voice their opinion, while they are voicing theirs. Her piece is actually one of the best written in my opinion in getting to the core of the event. You might disagree with it, but it would be more in line with what the majority of active duty servicemen and women would express.

hawkdriver on January 14, 2012 at 1:12 PM

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:16 AM

dukecitygirl.. I didn’t serve but my husband did … does that count??

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:17 AM

As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:11 AM

The Taliban, not exactly the best shots in the world, have shot in my direction many times, I am sure. Fortunately I was out of range.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM

I was quoting West for dukecitygirl.

Thanks for your service!

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:17 AM

And some people deliberately misconstrued what he said as an attack on first amendment rights.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:07 AM

Allen West is innocent of this but Imam Petraeus is guilty. His attack on that small Christian Church pastor was a tur atrocity against the U.S. Constitution.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:18 AM

Still, all are free to all opinions in the U.S. It’s (still) a free country.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:13 AM

Oh really? Tell that to some of the hypocrites here who condemn Col. West’s taken-out-of-context statement and their own directive to tell those who have never served to STFU, so to speak.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:18 AM

You are profoundly wrong. It was the firebombing of the German cities that helped break the morale of the Germans. It was deadlier than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. But the atomic bombs in Japan and the firebombings in Germany is what helped usher the long-lasting piece.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 12:48 AM

I think not,.. besides which,.. How did firebombing Dresden end the war faster in europe? Hitler was a military dictater, and ran a ruthless police state, public opinion was less than usless. The German citizens had no more say on ending the war than the average Russian or Japanese peoples did. It wasn’t Japanese public opinion which saw the end of Japan at Hiroshima, it was the Emporer whose moral was shaken.. The Jaqpanese people were being handed spears to fight to the last child, and would have done so..

but even then..

Are you so removed from your humanity, you can’t see why servicemen might not WANT to kill as many as possible? I didn’t say we wouldn’t do what was necessary, just that commiting genocide is not what Americans do, leftist propaganda ignored,.. even in 1876, public sentiment was shifting towards assimilating the Indians as Americans, not in just killing them..

I was in the 90th Strategic Missile Wing.. 200 Minuteman III’s, three MIRV’s each, 600 warheads average yield 250 Kilotons… all aimed at the Greater Soviet Union, and I sat on a nuclear weapons bunker with my fireteam durin a DEFCON 4 after Mr. Regan was shot.. To say I haven’t thought through what nuclear weapons could do, or haven’t understood their implications if used, would not be a correct statement.

Americans, should fight to win, should hold true to our Honor, should stand firm and hold our ground.. but genocide, isn’t in me, or most of those who serve. I don’t want to kill their women and children, that happens enough from collateral damage already, but to do it by design?

No..

I refuse..

The warrior’s ethic is to protect the weak,.. not kill them.

mark81150 on January 15, 2012 at 1:18 AM

I’m on the side of our troops here. Yes it was bad form but completely understandable.Being politically correct here is a waste of time. Of course that is just my opinion… Go Niners!… Sorry for that but they are my local team!

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:10 AM

She’s being absurd. Of course you have the right. No one is saying otherwise but her.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

dukecitygirl.. I didn’t serve but my husband did … does that count??

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:17 AM

Of course in my book it does. My father, my cousin and my sister served. But in other people’s self righteous book, you and I are not permitted to do so.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

The Taliban, not exactly the best shots in the world, have shot in my direction many times, I am sure. Fortunately I was WAY out of range.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM

Thanks for your service!

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:17 AM

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:20 AM

mark81150 on January 15, 2012 at 1:18 AM

Amen.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:20 AM

hawkdriver ,thanks.. and God bless you… Can I say that?

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:21 AM

South Carolina’s largest newspaper, “The State,” has just endorsed Jon Huntsman!!!!!

http://www.thestate.com/2012/01/15/2114108/huntsman-could-bring-us-back-together.html

raf on January 15, 2012 at 1:21 AM

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:16 AM

West never said that what they did was right. He even suggested the perfect form of ‘punishment’.

When he said “shut up” he meant the pious indignants who don’t peep when the scum commit real atrocities, the leftie ‘worldly’ PC scum.

Everyone has a right to express whatever they please.

Glad that so many servicepeople are on this board.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:23 AM

Of course in my book it does. My father, my cousin and my sister served. But in other people’s self righteous book, you and I are not permitted to do so.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

Surely you must be referring to West, because otherwise you have greatly misunderstood what certain people have said to you.

McDuck on January 15, 2012 at 1:23 AM

*****South Carolina’s largest newspaper, “The State,” has just endorsed Jon Huntsman!!!!!*****

http://www.thestate.com/2012/01/15/2114108/huntsman-could-bring-us-back-together.html

raf on January 15, 2012 at 1:24 AM

But in other people’s self righteous book, you and I are not permitted to do so.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

Who forbade you to do so?

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:24 AM

raf on January 15, 2012 at 1:24 AM

Is that supposed to signify anything?

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:25 AM

But in other people’s self righteous book, you and I are not permitted to do so.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

Who is silencing you? I’ve seen people disagreeing with you, but no one is shouting you down or forcing you out of the public square, so to speak.

dukecitygirl.. I didn’t serve but my husband did … does that count??

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:17 AM

Fortunately, military service is not a prerequisite for freedom.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:25 AM

Oh really? Tell that to some of the hypocrites here who condemn Col. West’s taken-out-of-context statement and their own directive to tell those who have never served to STFU, so to speak.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:18 AM

As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.”

Representative Allen West

I love the guy. But that’s exactly what he wrote. And this is what I said.

Then we’re in agreement. This article merely points to quite a serious example of that element that can come out in any of us, let alone men and women in combat. The line we draw is in making excuses for it. And of course, the additional point that Rep West is absolutely wrong here. We serve and have served so that everyone has the same rights as the person that stands next to him or her. I don’t always like the opinion of the anti-war crowd and I’ll ask them sometimes if they’ve serve to understand if they do have a frame of reference. But to tell them to shut up? It’s just wrong and not what the military stands for.

hawkdriver on January 14, 2012 at 1:25 PM

Your characterization of it aside, I think, I stand by it.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:26 AM

All you keyboard commandos who haven’t walked the walk, get a life and STFU!

vietvet68 on January 14, 2012 at 10:49 PM

Its easy for people to sit behind a keyboard and call for unrestrained war against our enemies, but who will bear it?

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 12:08 AM

But if you don’t wear the uniform, then that doesn’t give you the right to criticize the integrity of those that do. You are not in the same circles as they are.

Kini on January 15, 2012 at 12:27 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM

But in other people’s self righteous book, you and I are not permitted to do so.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

You’ve been doing so, quite freely. I hope you are not incarcerated or under any duress. Otherwise the land has really seen the end.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM

hawkdriver ,thanks.. and God bless you… Can I say that?

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:21 AM

:-)

You can say anything. Is your hubby safe at home right now?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:29 AM

Fortunately, military service is not a prerequisite for freedom.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:25 AM

Heck, we have a Commander Pretender in Chief who serves only golf balls and likely has no clue how to fire any kind of gun.

No worries blankminde, I take full responsibility for the “Pretender” part. Napolitano, via General Dynamics, if you watch this, spontaneously combust, you fools.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:30 AM

No..

I refuse..

The warrior’s ethic is to protect the weak,.. not kill them.

mark81150 on January 15, 2012 at 1:18 AM

My opinion is, and of course it’s only my opinion, that you need to (a) win (b) minimize your side’s losses (c) not kill any civilians without a purpose.

In spite of what you said, there is OFTEN great support by the enemy civilians for their side. Certainly when their side starts losing, the support diminishes. When it diminishes to the point that NOBODY supports the dictator but his closest entourage, the dictator tends to fall quickly because he is assassinated.

Terrorizing civilians produces multiple effects depending on the circumstances: increased resistance, increased hopelesness, decreased support OR increased support for their side. Taking great care to protect civilians certainly also has great benefits but great costs as well. When I said that Fallujah should have been erased from the face of the earth, it’s a very considered opinion. I believe it would have shortened the war and reduced the overall casualties on BOTH sides, post Fallujah.

It is important for democracies not to degenerate into barbarism. It’s also important to win, and win QUICKLY, because support always disappears. What has to be done requires great wisdom.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

You can say anything. Is your hubby safe at home right now?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:29 AM
hawk.. For quite a few years now… He’s a Vietnam vet!

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

When he said “shut up” he meant the pious indignants who don’t peep when the scum commit real atrocities, the leftie ‘worldly’ PC scum.

EXACTLY WHAT I SAID, BUT SOME JERK JUMPED ALL OVER ME FOR AGREEING WITH WEST IN A VERY RUDE AND HOSTILE MANNER. AND HE WASN’T CALLING ME MA’AM THEN.

Everyone has a right to express whatever they please.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:23 AM

Well, sink me. Some people left comments on this thread saying something to the contrary. And NO ONE here got on their case for it.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

But in other people’s self righteous book, you and I are not permitted to do so.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:19 AM

You’ve been doing so, quite freely. I hope you are not incarcerated or under any duress. Otherwise the land has really seen the end.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM

You will all be incarcerated just as soon as a Presidential degree declares hotgas to be insurrection against the state and all it’s participants enemy combatants.

DasObamaReich on January 15, 2012 at 1:34 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM

I could see the first quote, but the second is a question and the third is a declaration all tied up and ready for challenging. That’s sort of what people do on the internet – argue.

I didn’t ask the question to imply that you don’t get to discuss it if you don’t bear the front of unrestrained war. That would limit speech pretty harshly.

You’re obviously welcome to say what you want about this and anything else. It would help if when people asked questions you didn’t assume they were out to get you or being disingenuous though.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:34 AM

All you keyboard commandos who haven’t walked the walk, get a life and STFU!

vietvet68 on January 14, 2012 at 10:49 PM

You said as much on the other thread. I’m not even sure who this guy directed it at.

Its easy for people to sit behind a keyboard and call for unrestrained war against our enemies, but who will bear it?

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 12:08 AM

He didn’t tell anyone they couldn’t voice their opinion.

But if you don’t wear the uniform, then that doesn’t give you the right to criticize the integrity of those that do. You are not in the same circles as they are.

Kini on January 15, 2012 at 12:27 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM

Kini was talking about you calling an active duty combat vet the equivalent of a liar.

But lets refresh our minds of who was for shutting people up.

Yikes, I read the entire thread between Dr. Tesla and the other commenters.

I think Dr. Tesla is arrogant and his nitpicking on Allen West’s comment is disingenuous. West was referring to the faux outrage of the lefties over this. I felt like telling them to shut up too.

Second, while I understand that one can’t fully understand what it’s like to be in war, and I’ve never been in combat, I can comprehend what the heat of battle can do to a person – your adrenaline, the shock of being shot at and seeing your buddies killed, the ferocity and naked life and death scenario one faces… so when I saw this video, my first thought was wondering what they went through before it was all over… did their enemies ambush and kill some of their brothers in arms? Did they burn down a school for girls? Did they throw acid on some women’s faces? Burn down a village?

No, I wasn’t going to judge them for this, though whoever taped it was an idiot for letting it go viral. I do know this: if I went through what many soldiers do in war (and yes, what little I know is from film and books), I’d probably have done the exact same thing.

dukecitygirl on January 14, 2012 at 11:35 AM

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:36 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

They have that right, to say such inane things.

However, your right to say anything is intact.

p.s. why should anyone have to call you Ma’am?

p.p.s. he is not a jerk; he is an extraordinary person; take time out and read about him – he’s been here/there, through a lot of hell.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:36 AM

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:30 AM

Of course they’re not watching Hot Air – they’re too busy combing through people’s Farmville updates.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:37 AM

It is important for democracies not to degenerate into barbarism. It’s also important to win, and win QUICKLY, because support always disappears. What has to be done requires great wisdom.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. Sun Tzu

VorDaj on January 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

Smiles, but not always sure they’re still safe. So many of my senior friends who fought there still combat some illnesses. We just lost one that worked our simulator at Simmon AAF to cancer. He was registered for exposure to defoliants. You make sure he gets his regular checkups.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:40 AM

I didn’t ask the question to imply that you don’t get to discuss it if you don’t bear the front of unrestrained war. That would limit speech pretty harshly.

If we had unrestrained war and used our most deadly assets, you wouldn’t be bearing much of the brunt of it. Nukes saved American soldiers’ lives in WWII.

You’re obviously welcome to say what you want about this and anything else. It would help if when people asked questions you didn’t assume they were out to get you or being disingenuous though.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:34 AM

Well then you tell your friends to stop trying to muzzle me or anyone else who has an opinion even though we don’t serve.

Let me tell you something: if you have a loved one serving in war, you suffer too. You wonder if they will make it home alive. You suffer because you know that they are living under sh*tty conditions. You suffer because you know they are fighting an enemy who will not abide by the Geneva Conventions, who will torture and brutally murder them if they got them alive. You suffer because you don’t hear from them and every time you hear that an American soldier was killed, you wonder and cry and worry if it was them.

So don’t you tell me we don’t know squat about war or that we don’t live in the same circle.

And that goes for all of you.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:40 AM

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:27 AM

Not to bust up yet another thread……its never been posted at least that I saw. I guess its been considered a serious infraction. Any how I just got back in and thought I’d let you know. Its not as cold here tonight. Thanks again for the pointers. I appreciated its.

Bmore on January 15, 2012 at 1:41 AM

The Taliban, not exactly the best shots in the world, have shot in my direction many times, I am sure. Fortunately I was WAY out of range.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM

Thanks for your service!

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:17 AM

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:20 AM

Sorry if it didn’t make sense. I was expressing my thanks for you serving in Afghanistan.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:42 AM

BTW, whilst we have been having our Pissing Wras here –

Romney opens 21-point lead in South Carolina: Reuters/Ipsos poll

VorDaj on January 15, 2012 at 1:43 AM

Schaenfreude
Should have read ” I appreciates t its.”

Bmore on January 15, 2012 at 1:44 AM

It is important for democracies not to degenerate into barbarism. It’s also important to win, and win QUICKLY, because support always disappears. What has to be done requires great wisdom.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 1:32 AM

I think I understand the context of your earlier comments better. Are you speaking more of the general danger of a traditionally 2nd/3rd generation military being destroyed by a non-state/4th generation actor? If a powerful democracy is entangled in a war without clear exit and it exhausts some resources it isn’t nearly as big of a deal as if the narrative is articulated that the democracy is no longer legitimate.

I would agree with this (assuming that’s your angle) but that’s exactly why I question boundless aggression in war. Under what circumstances would any American tolerate a total war that they have 24/7 access to?

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:44 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:40 AM

You’re the only one that demonstrated the stated behavior you’re admonishing everyone else about. With the exception of Kini telling you not to call this active duty Marine a liar, no one is telling you anything about muzzling your opinion. In fact, my conversation with you on the other thread started by asserting you shouldn’t be doing that to others.

What am I missing here?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

And I add that it’s easy for me to say I want a scorched earth policy against the enemy.

I don’t give a rat’s a** if it kills their civilians. If it would protect my father or my sister or my cousin, I would gladly see thousands of Afghan or Iraqi citizens die.

I don’t care.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. Sun Tzu

VorDaj on January 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM

And yet we have nothing but protracted wars post Korea. And only sporadic, often superficial attempts to explain why the most powerful country in the world, that is currently able to achieve air superiority in any conflict, and in fact relies on it, spends multiple years fighting primitive enemies with loss of life on it’s side improving only because of medical technology.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 1:47 AM

Thanks hawk he does…

sandee on January 15, 2012 at 1:47 AM

What am I missing here?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

You wilfully misconstrued Col. West’s statement. And you continue to do so.

You’re still jerk.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:48 AM

And I add that it’s easy for me to say I want a scorched earth policy against the enemy.

I don’t give a rat’s a** if it kills their civilians. If it would protect my father or my sister or my cousin, I would gladly see thousands of Afghan or Iraqi citizens die.

I don’t care.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Maybe it’s time to call it a night?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:50 AM

Bmore on January 15, 2012 at 1:41 AM

Could mean that AP went to sleep and never looked any over…left your ‘eaten’ comments sitting in the mill.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:51 AM

What am I missing here?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

You wilfully misconstrued Col. West’s statement. And you continue to do so.

You’re still jerk.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:48 AM

Well, I’ll have to take your word for the manner you divined that he meant. But there is no mistake that you and other commenters you were in agreement with on the other thread were advising people they had no right to comment.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:53 AM

Sorry if it didn’t make sense. I was expressing my thanks for you serving in Afghanistan.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:42 AM

I have never set foot in Afghanistan and have no intention of ever doing so. Reread my comment. I will make it even clearer.

The Taliban, not exactly the best shots in the world, have shot in my direction [that would be east or west] many times, I am sure. Fortunately I was WAY WAY WAY WAY out of range.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:40 AM

I’ve never argued that your vote is worth less on account of not being a service member, but I understand your frustration.

I still disagree with you, but that’s fine. Its a free country, supposedly.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM

May not be the right strategy for Afghanistan because of geography.

Igor R. on January 14, 2012 at 10:46 PM

More like because of the demographics and cultural geography. My point is that technology is an amazing tool and a crutch at once. We bombed the bejesus out of Vietnam and employed technologies that were the first of their kind. We won nearly every tactical engagement, but we lost the war. Why? Because war is not so polite as to remain in the theatre it is fought in. Since the peace of Westphalia it has extended to the homeland of its troops in the form of political unrest and popular approval.

We can outmatch them technologically every day, but if the American people lost their stomach for war we will lose. Incidents like this one won’t sway everyone, but it will put another hole in the dike.

blankminde on January 14, 2012 at 10:55 PM

I have to disagree with the statement that we lost the Vietnam War. We actually won it, forced the other side to come to peace, and left it all up to the South Vietnamese to protect themselves.

That is, at that point,. we unequivocally won the Vietnam War. The only condition of the peace afterwards was that we would continue to give the South Vietnamese funding and air support as they continued their war without us.

But in an incredible display of partisanship that is a black mark to this day on the Democrat Party, the Democrat Congress after the resignation of Nixon cut off the funding that we had agreed to give the Vietnamese, and cut off the funding for the air support they were supposed to get.

And since we were no longer in the Vietnamese War, the effect was to throw our allies to the wolves.

It’s still disgusting to consider, even now.

In spite of that, your main point stands. Nixon negotiated the peace they way he did because public sentiment was clearly turning against the war. It was never as unpopular as Hollywood and the media liked to pretend, but it was losing support towards the end.

tom on January 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM

What am I missing here?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Good man, please ignore. She will insist on the last word if it will take her all night. In the Palin threads sometimes 1-2 have the same approach. It’s not winnable, no matter what you write/provide. In the scheme of things it all means less than an Afghani fraction of a speck of sand.

If you are a “jerk” then the world is in wonderful hands.

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM

With the exception of Kini telling you not to call this active duty Marine a liar, no one is telling you anything about muzzling your opinion. In fact, my conversation with you on the other thread started by asserting you shouldn’t be doing that to others.

What am I missing here?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

I think you like to misconstrue what people say.

I agreed with West telling the hand wringing left to STFU. You wilfully distort that by saying I’m telling EVERYONE to STFU. I have stated over and over again that West (and I) are referring to the faux indignation of the left. You conveniently ignore that point and continue to assert your calumny against me and Col. West.

That other person is also being dishonest. He was talking about bad PR, and I said the tape was bad PR and he went off on a tangent about marine corp code. I said that PR and morality (code) are two different things. He continued on his irrelevant tangent (obviously to cover up his error) and used red herrings to divert from my point. That’s dishonest.

Don’t give me that crap about impeccable morality. I hate to break it to you but wearing a uniform does not mean you’re incapable of dishonesty or any other vice. You and Kini are full of s***.

You’re full of s*** when you lie about West and my stance. Yes, I feel like telling the leftards to STFU when they whine over this incident. You don’t like it? TOO FRACKING BAD.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:55 AM

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM

Why would you make your original comment in that manner? It very much gave the impression you were saying you were being shot at.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:56 AM

May not be the right strategy for Afghanistan because of geography.

Igor R. on January 14, 2012 at 10:46 PM

Geography and Islam and Afghans being inbred.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:58 AM

Why would you make your original comment in that manner? It very much gave the impression you were saying you were being shot at.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:56 AM

No it doesn’t.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:59 AM

Crimes against all humanity:

Out: misogyny, “honor killings”, child rape, stonings, beheadings, suicide bombers, IED’s, 9/11.

In: Marines taking a leak.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 2:02 AM

Schadenfreude on January 15, 2012 at 1:54 AM

I will have the last word on this because for some strange reason, I have an aversion to being lied about. I have an aversion to having my words and meanings misconstrued.

Maybe you’re not able to understand it, but it’s a point of honor.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:02 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:55 AM

Ma’am, you’re still being rude and very much inventing portions of the conversation that never happened. You can say what you want about me. I’m retired a year now. But that kid you’re busting on is still an active duty Marine leading men and women in combat. He neither told you not to voice your opinion as you insisted we do, nor asserted the military had an impeccable PR record. He was merely stating you’re unfairly generalizing that record in quite the other direction. You as much, called him dishonest. I think a lot might be gained by you apologizing for that.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:04 AM

I think I understand the context of your earlier comments better. Are you speaking more of the general danger of a traditionally 2nd/3rd generation military being destroyed by a non-state/4th generation actor? If a powerful democracy is entangled in a war without clear exit and it exhausts some resources it isn’t nearly as big of a deal as if the narrative is articulated that the democracy is no longer legitimate.

I would agree with this (assuming that’s your angle) but that’s exactly why I question boundless aggression in war. Under what circumstances would any American tolerate a total war that they have 24/7 access to?

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 1:44 AM

Well I’m speaking of something like that in parts. My main emphasis was not on the goals of these wars, which is another story, and not even on dealing with irregular combattants and rebellions per se. The emphasis WAS on the conflict between what I consider to be a reasonable optimal strategy that involves more firepower and less consideration of collateral damage vs. both the country and its military that is progressively incorporating more and more politically correct and “just war” stuff into the way it does business and judges the appropriateness of actions and results.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 2:05 AM

Why would you make your original comment in that manner? It very much gave the impression you were saying you were being shot at.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:56 AM

No it doesn’t.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:59 AM

The Taliban, not exactly the best shots in the world, have shot in my direction many times, I am sure. Fortunately I was out of range.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 1:14 AM

Okay, it doesn’t/

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:06 AM

I don’t give a rat’s a** if it kills their civilians. If it would protect my father or my sister or my cousin, I would gladly see thousands of Afghan or Iraqi citizens die.

I don’t care.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 1:46 AM

Perhaps that is the toll of a decade of war. People have become desensitized to it – inured to the reality of it. Seeing the glamorization of it on television and constantly being exposed to it in the media must have some impact.

These Marines would have been junior enlisted – likely in middle school or grade school when we went to war. They’ve spent their lives inundated by images of war without being exposed to the reality of it. Video games certainly haven’t helped. So its understandable that their discipline didn’t remain intact, but its not excusable. We entrust these young men with a lot and that comes with equal responsibility.

I’m not advocating coddling the enemy. If our people want a more kinetic approach to war that is fine, but until then we are a nation of laws and that’s that.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 2:07 AM

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:04 AM

Why are you calling me “Ma’am” now in front of all your friends when you didn’t in that other thread where you were so rude?

Don’t you dare tell me to apologize! YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY FOR LYING ABOUT MY POSITION. YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY FOR WILFULLY MISCONSTRUING MY OWN WORDS ABOUT WANTING THE LEFT TO SHUT UP ABOUT THIS INCIDENT BECAUSE YOU CLAIM I WAS TELLING EVERYONE TO STFU, WHICH IS FALSE.

Until you apologize, you and I are enemies. So help me God.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:07 AM

I think a lot might be gained by you apologizing for that.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:04 AM

Hotgas, hotair, hotpiss, whatever this establishment is called is just a little insignificant blog in the universe. Don’t take it so seriously. We are all strutting our time on this small stage, full of sound and fury, and all our musings don’t matter to the world as much as those Marines taking a leak.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 2:10 AM

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 2:10 AM

Oh he is so full of himself. Telling people what to do. Using polite words while his friends are around but when they’re not he’s a rude jerk.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:11 AM

Good night.

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 2:11 AM

Face it everyone, in the greater scheme of things, what we say and do here on hotgas is less important to the world than a few ounces of Marine piss.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 2:12 AM

O/T,Quick Pop in,Intel(MoonBat)Alert,not
sure what to make of this!!!
============================

LIBYA and the NTC:

12,000 U.S. troops to LibyaStory metadata:
Submitted 23 mins ago from http://www.globalresearch.ca by user

http://www.breakingnews.com/
============================

LIBYA and the NTC: 12,000 U.S. troops to Libya
by Cynthia McKinney
*********************
*********************

It is with great disappointment that I receive the news from foreign media publications and Libyan sources that our President now has

12,000 U.S. troops stationed in Malta and they are about to make their descent into Libya.

For those of you who have not followed closely the situation in Libya, the resistance to the rule of the National Transitional Council is strong. The National Transitional Council (NTC) cast of characters has about as much support on the ground as did Mahmoud Abbas before the United Nations request for Palestinian statehood or Afghanistan’s regal-looking but politically impotent Hamid Karzai or for that matter, George W Bush after eight years.

The NTC not only has to contend with a vibrant, well-financed, grassroots-supported resistance, but the various militias of the NTC are now also fighting each other. I believe this “sociocide” of Libyan society, as we previously witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan before it, is part of a carefully crafted plan of destabilization that ultimately serves U.S. imperial interests and those of a Zionist state and its US agents who are bent on Greater Israel’s suzerainty over huge swaths of Arabic-speaking populations. Pakistan is also on the list for neutering in Muslim and world affairs, saddled with its own unpopular civilian leadership that finds itself in the hip pocket of the United States for survival, often getting sat upon by its fiscal guarantor.
(More….)
==========

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=28645

canopfor on January 15, 2012 at 2:13 AM

Until you apologize, you and I are enemies. So help me God.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:07 AM

I’ve called you Ma’am several times earlier when you started getting agitated. I meant it in all respect before this conversation melted down. I’m sorry you feel like yo need to be my enemy when I don’t even know you. That’s your choice.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:14 AM

canopfor on January 15, 2012 at 2:13 AM

Saints preserve us. More Muslin “nation building” for Allah.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 2:16 AM

Igor R. on January 15, 2012 at 2:05 AM

I’m game. I advocate America taking care of its interests and only using military force when necessary. Afghanistan should have been in and out – the necessary enemy left dead and a “don’t try that crap again or we’ll be back.” Obviously that strategy requires us to actually reciprocate when we say we will…

Since hundreds of years ago war has been the province of the state and until our electorate is on one side of that issue we’re not going to gain any ground with our national strategy. Its like beating a dog one day for urinating on the carpet and giving him a treat the next. Our enemies need to see that we will destroy threats unequivocally, but America is not an island. If we start unleashing the whole war machine and killing innocents we’re going to be at war with the world eventually.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 2:17 AM

Yeah first, don’t make charges about being “attacked” again. I’ll continue to try to remain civil.

But Ma’am, what is it about what either blankminde or I are saying that is such an antithesis to your particular point. What have I or he said that you find patently incorrect?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 12:10 AM

Ma’am, again. Read some of your own comments.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 12:52 AM

If that is insulting to you then I will certainly not address you that way again.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:17 AM

Hmmmm… I know I’m late to the party but Jeez Louise what a bunch of whineing liberal candyasses have infected this thread. The Marines should not have peed on this miserable violent, stoneage excuse for humans. They should have buried them upside down facing West in pig fat…and then peed on them. There fixed it..now that’s what I call reaching across the aisle.

HatfieldMcCoy on January 15, 2012 at 2:17 AM

But lets refresh our minds of who was for shutting people up

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 1:36 AM

LIAR, CALUMNIATOR. THIS IS WHAT I SAID:

West was referring to the faux outrage of the lefties over this. I felt like telling them to shut up too.

I said I FELT LIKE telling them to shut up. That’s in mild terms! And you blew this out of proportion and slandered me by stating that I want to tell EVERYONE to shut up!

I detest self righteous prigs like you who lie and distort other people’s words! You are the worst kind of person – lying about someone else!

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:18 AM

If that is insulting to you then I will certainly not address you that way again.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:17 AM

More lies.

It’s insulting when I know you’re just using that term in front of your friends but you don’t when they’re not around. Hypocrite.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:19 AM

Face it everyone, in the greater scheme of things, what we say and do here on hotgas is less important to the world than a few ounces of Marine piss.

RasThavas on January 15, 2012 at 2:12 AM

Google “strategic corporal”. We were in the middle of talks with the Taliban. Now they have to reciprocate or their leadership loses face. You might not care about the act, but the impact could be massive.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 2:19 AM

canopfor on January 15, 2012 at 2:13 AM

Where have you been man?

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:22 AM

canopfor on January 15, 2012 at 2:13 AM

You just put me in a position to agree with Cynthia McKinney. Thanks a lot!

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:23 AM

canopfor on January 15, 2012 at 2:13 AM

Ugh. Let me guess, in an advisory role. Stability operations. FML.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 2:24 AM

Well folks, I’m off to bed. Spirited debate is rarely a bad thing, though the internet occasionally makes it painful. God bless you Chesty, wherever you are.

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 2:29 AM

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:19 AM

I’m not sure what else I can say to you. You started losing your temper when I asked you if I had asked a hard question. I’ve tried to be civil through you telling me to piss off, calling me a liar, calling that young Marine Officer a liar, calling me dense and whatever else. I have tried to be polite.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:30 AM

blankminde on January 15, 2012 at 2:29 AM

God bless you son. Make the best of it while you’re still home.

hawkdriver on January 15, 2012 at 2:31 AM

All this talk…still…about people abridging other’s freedom of speech. Let’s be frank here. No one here is stopping anyone else from speaking. LtC West telling people to not speak about matters they have no clue on in the simplest way (Shut up) is not abridging people’s freedom of speech. Duke and Hawk telling each other to shut up isn’t abridging either’s freedom of speech. There is only ONE way that people (other then the mods of course) can stop people from discussing a subject here…and that is the tactic that has been used.

Distraction. Running off on a tangent where you snipe and kvetch at each other until the actual thread is completely forgotten and we’re all discussing something else. Which, I admit, I’m as guilty as anyone else. But we can try to keep on topic…and in doing so defeat those who wish us to ‘shut up’ by trying to change the topic.

He said, futily knowing full well that speech never works…

wolfva on January 15, 2012 at 2:31 AM

Until you apologize, you and I are enemies. So help me God.

dukecitygirl on January 15, 2012 at 2:07 AM

You sound like an hysterical drunk. Go to bed and read your comments in the am.

katy the mean old lady on January 15, 2012 at 2:32 AM

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