A TURBRO-PROP!? What kind of application does that have?

LordJack on January 7, 2012 at 3:12 PM

Counterinsurgency after elections suspended.

/paulbot

The Super Tucano was designed from the outset with a capability to be armed. The Beech T-6 II was never designed for that, and it is not as capable as the Tucano. The US Navy/SEAL community has been working with the Tucano in an evaluation for years now, do a google search on “Imminent Fury”

http://www.military.com/news/article/secret-program-works-to-field-seal-plane.html

Its more important to be able to loiter for a while overhead, rather than be really pointy and fast, and then have to leave in an half hour to get more gas.

The Air Force has always wanted to be a strategic service and have short shrift to its close air support duties to the Army. It is why the Army started arming choppers in Vietnam. Some, like former artillery officer Dr. Jerry Pournelle, have argued that the Air Force has forfeit its right to an independent existence. From a CAS standpoint, I have to agree just based on our military history. From a strategic standpoint it is not true however.

At this point, the most effective tactical air craft we have is the A-10. While it is out of production, the line could be resurrected, although tooling and jigs would have to re-created as the Air Force often orders destruction of the production equipment (I understand that Lockheed has preserved the tooling and jigs for the F-22, an aircraft that we need in far larger numbers than we have now). We can leave the air superiority mission to the Air Force, where it belongs, and transfer the CAS mission and AC to the Army where they belong. The Army and AAF worked out the TAC mission very well during WW2 with a separate TAC command assigned to each field Army. We have not been in a conflict since where the idea would not worked well. Also, if Army realizes they now own the CAS mission themselves, the concern for its maintenance would be taken far more seriously. At this point it’s the problem of the Air Force and its weakness is something teh Army can point a finger at because they can blame someone else rather than themselves.

During WW2 a radial engine was built to run on diesel to provide power to a tank. I am not aware of how extensive the production was, but the fact is the engine existed. There is a problem, however, with prop driven AC being powered by diesel engines and that is the large amount of violent vibration. General Aviation AC seem to have propeller problems after about 300 hours when driven by diesels. It seems the stronger power pulses from a compression ignition engine pretty much destroys the hydraulic prop control mechanisms. The Skyraider engine was about 2000hp and makes the diesel on a Cessna 182 (230hp) minuscule by comparison. The prop can be built heavier, but not that much heavier. As a result, the turboprop is the only way to get a high power engine while allowing the fuel efficiency required for the loiter time required of a CAS AC.

I have seen the paper specs of the the proposed AT-6 vs the Super Tucano (ST), and the AT-6 loses hands down. The ST has been around for quite awhile and already serves in several 3rd world Air Forces and has performed well. The AT-6 would have to be placed on a development track, with all the attendant delays and costs that will require. The ST is ready to go now, all they have to do is assemble them. The AF needs them soon, not 10 years from now.

There is some concern about Embraer, however. I suspect the SEC investigation will uncover corrupt practices on the part of Embraer. If that happens, then Embraer will be banned from supplying anything to FedGov. Frankly, I doubt Embraer is worried about this. they supply little to us now, and that is not likely to change much. Obama, OTOH, should be worried, but he’s so corrupt I doubt he’s worried about much of anything. Hopefully the next POTUS will put his tail in jail where it belongs.

Second, I’m quite sure this was a purely political intervention, these Obama appointee’s are little short of insane mostly.

Third,.. the debate between ground attack for the Army should be Army pilots.. vs. The Air Force owning all fixed wing has gone on since the birth of the Air Force. As a dedicated blue suiter,.. I do sometimes wonder if separating the Air Force from the Army was such a good idea.

It came about mostly, over budget battles between those wanting to replace aging battle tanks, and those wanting newer generation jets to replace the WW II air fleet. It’s gets even more complicated when just inside the Air Force alone,.. there is the priesthood of jet pilots, vs the looked down upon CAS pilots. The A-10 was a massive victory against the fighter jocks who always opt to use a hammer to kill a fly, their nature.

In the sixties the Air Force forced the issue and the Army was prohibited from operating fixed wing aircraft. I’m torn on the issue, and I can see the Army’s point,.. I was a security specialist SP, we recieved our training from Rangers, and wargamed against the regular Army. So I have a foot in each camp. CAS is something we’d talk about,.. I served cold war, never got shot at, so I do listen when combat vets tell me what they need. The problems come about when services are forced to compete for dollars when they have real needs..

The F-15 is old, being overtaken by new Russian designs,. the Su series.. we need the F-22 to maintain our supremecy of the skies. The Army and Marines need new generation CAS, as the A-10 are limited in number, and lack the long loiter time needed.

Both have to fight for limited dollars..

Doesn’t help when Congressmen waste money on outmoded bases, which they use as jobs programs. Or on unwanted systems the military didn’t ask for because of where the plant is, and who sits in the Chairmans seat. Too much is wasted for political reasons.. I just wish I knew how to change it.

The Army’s right, but so is the Air Force,.. they shouldn’t have to fight each other for mission critical equipment.

give them (army) the aircraft to do it with. – cpt. charles

exactly.

last time the USAAC roundel was on a fixed-wing, it was pure dominance.

Let the high $ air-force lads play tag with their enemy counter-parts, and keep the skies clear.

Bombing the snot out of savages doesn’t take an 8 (or 9) figure airframe and a multimillion $ pilot (total up the costs of training of world-class combat pilot).

It just takes uncontested skies, a decent platform, and pilots trained from the get-go for CAS missions that fully understand the needs of ground-pounders.

There’s a reason Army aviation re-adopted their old branch symbol… give them the aircraft to do it with. The Air Force aren’t the only folks that know how to teach people to fly (especially low & slow).

Therefore if you want to know what kind of attack plane will actually do the job for America – i.e. will be deployed, and stay deployed and actually be effective, you need only Google the words “titanium bathtub”.

I’ll be here all week, and be sure to tip your waitress.

critics have noted that Sierra Nevada is more of a front company and the actual manufacturer would be Brazilian-based Embraer

critics are correct.
____________________

from the sierra nevada corporation website (link):

SNC is a Privately Held Corporation and is also the Top Woman Owned Federal Contractor in the U.S. based on its size, significant achievements, and resources to deliver high-technology systems and integration programs.

____________________

from an article in the inside business: hamption roads business journal

(“New ruling by U.S. agency benefits women-owned firms”)

Women-owned businesses will have a better chance of getting federal contracts under a new ruling…Government rules mandate that the Department of Defense award 5 percent of its contracts to women-owned businesses

____________________

white, straight, christian conservative males have it so easy in america.

Send the jobs to Brazil? Sure. So the USA can buy the adoration of all those countries we alienated during the Bush administration?

If you are going to use a prop and only 11 hundred horsepower a radial piston engine is superior because of their ability to absorb damage and keep running. modifying them into diesels would be a good idea though.

No way in hell Taco Gilbert gets a f’g contract! Damn right this is racism, just like the decision to block Kansas is racism. When one race is intent on f’g you over it’s only fair to hit them back. Kansas, California, Arizona… Let’s admit the obvious here. Obama’s school of Marxism is run by white oikophobes who loathe their own race.

There’s also Pentagon Payback in here somewhere. Boeing closes their Kansas facility after 80 years over the refueling contract and now Wichita gets f’d again? This isn’t an accident. This is Chicago and the Traitor in Chief at work. More proof that the military brass is now effectively controlled by our enemies.

1) How is this decision going to square with Obama’s latest push to “insource” jobs back into the US from foreign suppliers?

2) Sierra Nevada Corp has a vice-president named “Taco”????

The U.S. Air Force is buying twenty Brazilian A-29 Super Tucano aircraft for the Afghanistan Air Force… Afghanistan already has hundreds of pilots who would quickly learn how to handle the Super Tucano.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20120106.aspx

That said, there is a role for the lighter aircraft; cost of operation is one consideration among many.

The Tucano is a good plane; however there is no reason that we can’t do better. As a matter of fact, it is a testament to our slow slide toward mediocrity if we don’t.

China needs a new breed of rickshaw pullers.

It’s a lot like playing golf, aerobically.

Why are we looking to purchase planes that look like they should be fighting in World War 2 or in a Third World country…. well even in the third world countries if they can afford a plane the at least still have MIG jets..

A TURBRO-PROP!? What kind of application does that have?

All of our ordnance works off of smart technology (smart bombs/missiles) that allow you to fire from miles away. Why have something that flies so slow? I can understand the Army purchasing off-the-shelf helicopters because it meets the mission requirements. But I just don’t get this. Close Air Support??? I mean we have a jet that is about to fall apart that does that; A-10. But still that’s a jet not a Turbo Prop.

LordJack on January 7, 2012 at 3:12 PM

Al Qaeda and most of the other non-state actors don’t have MIG’s, and in any conflict with any country on earth other than Russia or China we would have total air superiority in a matter of days if not hours.

As far as the A-10 goes, it’s much more expensive to operate, and they don’t make them anymore. Even if you make spares for it forever, the airframe is only good for so many hours. If they did decide to build amore jet-powered attack planes I’m sure they would want something capable of operating from a carrier, which the A-10 is not.

I mean we have a jet that is about to fall apart that does that; A-10. But still that’s a jet not a Turbo Prop.

wow. i dont think you could be more wrong. the A-10 will be flown until at least 2028. they have just upgraded them not too long ago to the a-10c. it is a great plane and is in no danger of “falling apart”. and even if it did, it could still complete its mission and fly home.

long live the A-10!

Why are we looking to purchase planes that look like they should be fighting in World War 2 or in a Third World country…. well even in the third world countries if they can afford a plane the at least still have MIG jets..

A TURBRO-PROP!? What kind of application does that have?

All of our ordnance works off of smart technology (smart bombs/missiles) that allow you to fire from miles away. Why have something that flies so slow? I can understand the Army purchasing off-the-shelf helicopters because it meets the mission requirements. But I just don’t get this. Close Air Support??? I mean we have a jet that is about to fall apart that does that; A-10. But still that’s a jet not a Turbo Prop.

LordJack on January 7, 2012 at 3:12 PM

When air superiority has been achieved (as noted by several other commentators here) then jets are overkill and can’t loiter as much as needed for current CAS requirements.

Lower fuel consumption + longer loiter time+ modern weapons systems=BETTER CAS and less dead ground-pounders