Fact-checking Planned Parenthood’s purported percentages

posted at 8:10 pm on January 5, 2012 by Tina Korbe

Didn’t want to let this go by, even though you might have already seen it. According to Planned Parenthood’s end-of-the-year report, the organization refers far fewer women for adoption than they like to claim — and perform far more abortions than they like to tout, too. In a nutshell: Adoption referrals continue to go down, while the number of abortions continue to go up. CNSNews.com reports:

When compared with previous annual reports, the latest one shows an almost steady increase in the number of abortions performed at its clinics: In 2006, Planned Parenthood did 289,750 abortions; in 2007, it did 305,310; in 2009, it did 331,796; and, in 2010, it did 329,445–a small decrease from the previous year.

The annual report for fiscal year 2008-2009 does not include abortion or adoption figures, but a PPFA Fact Sheet posted on its Web site and said to be current as of September 2010, states that 324,008 abortions were performed at Planned Parenthood clinics around the country in 2008.

According to PPFA’s annual report for fiscal year 2007-2008,  in 2007 Planned Parenthood’s “adoption referrals to other agencies” totaled 4,912. In Fiscal Year 2010 that number was 841, a decrease of 82.8 percent.

The PPFA Fact Sheet states that adoption is included in 1 percent of services in 2008 (primary care and “other services” are included in that 1 percent), or 2,405 adoption referrals.

The latest annual report claims that abortion services make up 3 percent of “medical services,” but PPFA states it served 3 million people and performed 329,445 abortions – numbers that show 11 percent of customers received an abortion.

Here, then, is a rebuttal to that oft-repeated talking point that abortions hardly figure into the services Planned Parenthood provides.

Occasionally, folks wonder why I’m passionately pro-life. I tell them it’s because I’m passionately pro-choice. That is, I desperately want young girls to realize that, yes, every woman has a choice — until she doesn’t. Every woman has a choice before she gets pregnant. After she’s pregnant, the choice is gone. She will forever have been a mother, for however brief a time — and no abortion erases that. A woman’s body knows that, even if her mind and heart don’t. Sadly, more often than not, her heart realizes it, too. But where is Planned Parenthood after an abortion? Nowhere to be found. It’s up to organizations like Project Rachel to help women cope with the devastating and undisclosed aftermath of an abortion.

Last year, Planned Parenthood received $487.4 million in taxpayer money — but, as long as abortions account for 11 percent of its services, it doesn’t deserve a dime.


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Unexpectedly!

KOOLAID2 on January 5, 2012 at 8:16 PM

ABORT!….ABORT!

KOOLAID2 on January 5, 2012 at 8:17 PM

Thanks for posting this, I hadn’t seen it before. They don’t deserve a penny!

shanimal on January 5, 2012 at 8:18 PM

A subsidized scam to employ all the Berkley grads who have third world socio economic degrees…

RAGIN CAJUN on January 5, 2012 at 8:22 PM

But, but, but…we examine breasts and vaginas, too! /lib/

hillsoftx on January 5, 2012 at 8:22 PM

What is really odd is that a large percentage of those who support abortions show a distinct abhorrence to the death penalty. Go figure.

GarandFan on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

Planned parenthood: keeping women from being punished with a baby.

tom daschle concerned on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

“Family planning” is one of those bizarrely named services. If they added in the word “elimination” between the two words, it’d be more accurate.

The left had no problem going after Palin’s down-syndrome baby, Trig. They’re coming after Santorum’s baby, Gabriel, who died a mere 2 hours after birth, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they go after his daughter Bella either.

The left claims to support those with medical hardships, from disability to mental retardation to genetic defects. Yet for all their rhetoric, they pursue a disturbingly eugenics-based approach to the family.

The term “Nazi” is thrown around way too frequently nowadays, but when it comes to the unborn, the left truly does despise the weak. Their commitment to their might relative to a helpless child justifying slaughtering them would make even a social Darwinist blush.

Stoic Patriot on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

What is that a photo of? A hedgehog? Some sort of crustacean? A penguin?
 
It’s not twenty weeks yet, so I guess it could be anything. Maybe it’s an ocelot. Yeah, I’m going with ocelot.

rogerb on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

I do not believe one word of any so-called report from Planned Parenthood. 11% of their “customers” received an abortion? Give me a break. I’d guess something closer to 97% as a bare minimum. I’ve known many, many people who “went to” Planned Parenthood. 100% of them went there for abortions. I have never known a person to go there for any other reason. Never.

Rational Thought on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

If only we could strip them of federal funding…heck, if we could send the whole debate back to the state level where it belongs.

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Planned Parenthood’s Annual Report:
Got $487.4M in Tax Money,
Did 329,445 Abortions
=====================

Wow,that is an incredible amount!!

canopfor on January 5, 2012 at 8:24 PM

Thanks for the report, Tina. This is so sad in so many ways, yet even more so, completely outrageous. I understand the whole “woman’s right to choose” argument, but who speaks for the children? And where are the facts and data regarding the psychological and physical aftermath of murdering a human being? I, for one, do not want my tax dollars funding such barbarism.

soulmate on January 5, 2012 at 8:26 PM

I would think that there are at least two visits involved in getting an abortion, (a pregnancy test and the procedure and a good doctor would want a follow up visit to check for complications after)do all visits count under abortion services? I bet not…

Gwillie on January 5, 2012 at 8:27 PM

But, but, but..they examine boobies and vajayjays../lib/

hillsoftx on January 5, 2012 at 8:28 PM

This is really sad,make the girl see a picture of what she is “gettng rid of”, the ultrasound pictures today are so clear, it is fabulous (for those of us that like to see babies progressing).

mnkatie on January 5, 2012 at 8:28 PM

I hate those people.

SouthernGent on January 5, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Record profits! Oh, nevermind.

ParisParamus on January 5, 2012 at 8:29 PM

When women go on about a woman’s right to abortion, I can’t help but think about how half the babies they are aborting are presumably female.

Alana on January 5, 2012 at 8:30 PM

I’m Pro life but don’t make that my primary issue when it comes to voting.

On a side note though, I hope we’re done with the Moral Majority crowd and the damage they’ve done in pushing Independents over to the left.

As far as statistics go, given the horrible economy and recession/depression it makes perfect sense to me.

Wear a condom or take the pill, I’ve somehow managed to keep from fathering unwanted babies for 48 years – why can’t others?

celt on January 5, 2012 at 8:32 PM

Silent No More is another fantastic organization. It’s very difficult to be a woman who has had an abortion and then learns the facts about what she’s done. It’s why it is so important to support organizations like these.

Book on January 5, 2012 at 8:32 PM

A drunk on the street asks you for money. You reply that you don’t want to give it to him because he’s just going to drink it away, he replies “oh no – I’ve begged for all my booze money already this morning – the money you give me is for food.”

Vyceloch on January 5, 2012 at 8:32 PM

A woman’s body knows that, even if her mind and heart don’t.

Which is why breast cancer happens more often per capita to women who’ve had abortions.

itsnotaboutme on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

How do they sleep at night? I know several women that are trying to get pregnant and would love to adopt, it is very difficult to do. So very sad.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

When women go on about a woman’s right to abortion, I can’t help but think about how half the babies they are aborting are presumably female.

Alana on January 5, 2012 at 8:30 PM

Um…there are only two sexes, so that would be true statistically anyway. Or am I missing something?

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

Where is nathor the baby-killer?

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

What is really odd is that a large percentage of those who support abortions show a distinct abhorrence to the death penalty. Go figure.

GarandFan on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

Conversely, many pro-life people support the death penalty.

As I see it, opposing the death penalty is part of being pro-life (although I do have a great amount of respect for people who disagree with me on that, considering that I used to be a death penalty supporter myself, and the fact that people executed under such a system actually did something to deserve some form of punishment).

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 8:34 PM

Um…there are only two sexes, so that would be true statistically anyway. Or am I missing something?

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

Just that I said presumably on the very off chance that they might choose to keep more girl babies than boys.

Alana on January 5, 2012 at 8:35 PM

When women go on about a woman’s right to abortion, I can’t help but think about how half the babies they are aborting are presumably female.

Alana on January 5, 2012 at 8:30 PM

I think about the poor helpless child that is being killed. What about their rights?

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:35 PM

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

I think he’s learned his lesson about disagreeing with the popular opinion on abortion when one is on a political blog.

If not, he deserves another flamefest just for being so dense.

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Tina, thank you for the picture on the front page. Now, be bold enough to show abortion photos. You can find some at http://www.abortionno.org .

AnotherOpinion on January 5, 2012 at 8:36 PM

Just that I said presumably on the very off chance that they might choose to keep more girl babies than boys.

Alana on January 5, 2012 at 8:35 PM

Oh, duh, I’m slow tonight. I get it now, thanks for clarifying.

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 8:36 PM

When women go on about a woman’s right to abortion, I can’t help but think about how half the babies they are aborting are presumably female.

Alana on January 5, 2012 at 8:30 PM

A pro-life group at my university uses the slogan:
——–
SUPPORT
WOMEN’S
RIGHTS
(including unborn ones)
——–
Never heard a lib come up with a good response to that :)

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 8:37 PM

Thank you Tina, for this thread…

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:38 PM

Conversely, many pro-life people support the death penalty.

As I see it, opposing the death penalty is part of being pro-life (although I do have a great amount of respect for people who disagree with me on that, considering that I used to be a death penalty supporter myself, and the fact that people executed under such a system actually did something to deserve some form of punishment).

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 8:34 PM

The death penalty is given to people that have taken other lives. What did a fetus do? They fight for animal rights, but a child has none. It’s awful.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:39 PM

The death penalty is given to people that have taken other lives. What did a fetus BABY do? They fight for animal rights, but a child has none. It’s awful.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:39 PM

You meant baby, right?
FIFY

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:42 PM

I was actually thinking of this yesterday, the “only 3%” claim that is often used. I was wondering just how accurate it was, and assuming that it was probably an outright lie.

Thanks for the fact-check, Tina.

Kakalak Pundit on January 5, 2012 at 8:42 PM

O/T.update!
————

@washingtonpost tweeted:

#BREAKINGNEWS: D.C. Councilmember Harry Thomas Jr. has resigned. More details to come. http://t.co/9az96SxUStory metadata:
Submitted 16 mins ago from twitter.com/washingtonpost by editor

Feds charge Washington, DC councilman with stealing more than $350,000 in government funds – @APStory metadata:
Submitted 8 hours ago from hosted.ap.org by editor

http://www.breakingnews.com/

canopfor on January 5, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Abortion is not a primary issue for me in politics, but not infrequently on the streets of Manhattan and Brooklyn, I run into young women and men seeking donations for PP. When they approach me, I make a point of telling them how I find PP to be one of the primary agents of the trivialization or abortion. What I usually find is that the PP solicitors are not gung ho “chose” people so much as people who need to earn some money (this is often the case with the street solicitors)

ParisParamus on January 5, 2012 at 8:43 PM

Support your local crisis pregnancy clinics in their efforts to raise funds for, and staff, modern ultra sound equipment. Women seeking an abortion most often seek out a free ultrasound in order to determine the size of the baby and key dates, which determines their options and cost.

STL_Vet on January 5, 2012 at 8:44 PM

This breaks my heart.

How can we call ourselves a civilized society while we systematically slaughter millions of children for the sake of the mother’s convenience – with federal funding?

Barbaric and depressing.

WhaleBellied on January 5, 2012 at 8:46 PM

The numbers are staggering when you delve into them. I still have never been the same since the Philly clinic data and grand jury info. It never leaves you how horrible it is.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:46 PM

On a side note though, I hope we’re done with the Moral Majority crowd and the damage they’ve done in pushing Independents over to the left.

celt
on January 5, 2012 at 8:32 PM

Nope. I’m still here, for better or worse.

listens2glenn on January 5, 2012 at 8:47 PM

<blockquoteConversely, many pro-life people support the death penalty.

As I see it, opposing the death penalty is part of being pro-life (although I do have a great amount of respect for people who disagree with me on that, considering that I used to be a death penalty supporter myself, and the fact that people executed under such a system actually did something to deserve some form of punishment).

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 8:34 PM
>

One of those gets a fair trial with lots of appeals… the other gets none.

tinkerthinker on January 5, 2012 at 8:47 PM

The death penalty is given to people that have taken other lives. What did a fetus do? They fight for animal rights, but a child has none. It’s awful.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:39 PM

And that’s why I respect people who support capital punishment–there really is a huge difference between killing a person who decided to commit violent crime and killing a person who didn’t commit such a crime (or even had the opportunity to make that decision!).

Perhaps my way of looking at things is just too black and white, but to me you can either support the right to life for everyone without exception, or you can support the right to life for most people with some exceptions. Abortion and capital punishment are both policies that would come from the latter category.

In any case, I would absolutely agree that fighting against abortion is far more important than fighting against capital punishment, in terms of the innocence of the life being destroyed and in terms of the number of lives taken each year (or each day, as the case may be…).

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 8:47 PM

O/T,Oh sh*t!!!!!!
==================

3 people, including former top aide to Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, charged with felonies – Milwaukee Journal-SentinelStory metadata:
Submitted 6 hours ago from http://www.jsonline.com by editor

http://www.breakingnews.com/
=============================

Three charged in John Doe investigation of Walker aides
Update:4:30PM
**************

Three individuals – including a former top aide to Gov. Scott Walker – were charged Thursday with felonies as part of the ongoing John Doe investigation into Walker staffers.

Tim Russell, a longtime Walker campaign and county staffer, was charged with two felonies and one misdemeanor count of embezzlement. Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm said the charges are tied to Operation Freedom, an annual military appreciation day held at the Milwaukee County Zoo.

The complaint says that Russell diverted to his personal bank account more than $21,000 intended for Operation Freedom, using some of those dollars to go on Hawaiian and Caribbean vacations with his domestic partner.

Other funds were used, the complaint says, for Russell to attend a weekend political strategy session in December 2010 with Herman Cain and his chief of staff, Mark Block, to discuss Cain’s now-defunct presidential campaign.

Chisholm said some of the stolen money was intended for the families of Wisconsin soldiers who were killed in action in Iraq and Afghanistan. Funds also were used for wounded veterans of the war in Iraq. In 2010, Walker’s county administration had asked prosecutors to investigate what had happened to $11,000 raised in 2007 for the event.

Chisholm said at a press conference that he could not take questions because of the ongoing investigation. He noted that Walker’s administration had asked for the investigation and said his office was following the evidence without regard to politics
(More…..)
==========

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/three-charged-in-john-doe-investigation-of-walker-aides-o63mivs-136748913.html

canopfor on January 5, 2012 at 8:48 PM

You meant baby, right?
FIFY

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:42 PM

Of course, but they (pro) like to call them fetus’s like they are not a child/baby.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 8:48 PM

Question
If only 11% goes for abortions and maybe 1%goes for adoptions. Where does the other 88% go?
“TheOnes” reelection campaign stash?

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 8:48 PM

My sister used to be pro-choice, while conservative in most other matters. When her step-daughter became pregnant with twins, she went with her to view her earliest sonogram. She told me the children weren’t much bigger than a couple of grains of rice.

As she looked at it she noticed a little flicker of light emanating from each one. She asked the sonogram (doctor/nurse) what the little lights were. The reply: “That’s their heartbeat.”

Changed her forever.

predator on January 5, 2012 at 8:49 PM

I will admit I am conflicted over the death penalty. I do admit that I will gladly do away with the death penalty in exchange for the ending of abortion in America. The numbers executed are a pittance in relation to the number of abortions and to the number of murders in this country.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-death-sentence

CW on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

Look at their Balance Sheet. They have a staggering 1 Billion in assets and liabilities of appx 170mil.

WTF are we doing funding these people?

Screw the abortion bit, where is Occupy Planned Parenthood?

theblacksheepwasright on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

But, but, but..they examine boobies and vajayjays../lib/
hillsoftx on January 5, 2012 at 8:28 PM

Bill Clinton works @ PP ?

burrata on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

The reply: “That’s their heartbeat.”

Changed her forever.

predator on January 5, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Incredible… thanks for sharing, predator.

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

The reply: “That’s their heartbeat.”

Changed her forever.

predator on January 5, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Hmmm. Science.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 8:54 PM

I never knew this. While I think I’m pro choice, I don’t think ANY taxpayer money should go for abortions. This really pi$$e$ me off! Thanks Tina.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 8:55 PM

I do not believe one word of any so-called report from Planned Parenthood. 11% of their “customers” received an abortion? Give me a break. I’d guess something closer to 97% as a bare minimum. I’ve known many, many people who “went to” Planned Parenthood. 100% of them went there for abortions. I have never known a person to go there for any other reason. Never.

Rational Thought on January 5, 2012 at 8:23 PM

Got that right RT!
Planned Parenthood tries to make it sound like the Lone Ranger comes in once in a while…BUT!…every Tonto I have talked to for years, when the subject comes up… goes there for one purpose, and one purpose only!

KOOLAID2 on January 5, 2012 at 8:57 PM

I should correcf myself.

What I should have said is.. it’s horrible to fund abortions but worse an organization so rich in assets is being subsidized by taxpayers… ergo: where is Occupy Planned Parenthood

theblacksheepwasright on January 5, 2012 at 8:59 PM

In 2010, Walker’s county administration had asked prosecutors to investigate what had happened to $11,000 raised in 2007 for the event.

Chisholm said at a press conference that he could not take questions because of the ongoing investigation. He noted that Walker’s administration had asked for the investigation and said his office was following the evidence without regard to politics

canopfor on January 5, 2012 at 8:48 PM

Canopfor, note Walker and this administration turned them in for investigation. Now watch the progs here make it much more of a deal than it is. They were embezzling. They got turned in. Unless I am missing more facts that come out I see it as a good thing that they asked for an investigation.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:00 PM

The reply: “That’s their heartbeat.”

Changed her forever.

predator on January 5, 2012 at 8:49 PM

I never knew this. While I think I’m pro choice

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 8:55 PM

I will never comprehend.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 9:01 PM

As she looked at it she noticed a little flicker of light emanating from each one. She asked the sonogram (doctor/nurse) what the little lights were. The reply: “That’s their heartbeat.”

Changed her forever.

predator on January 5, 2012 at 8:49 PM

Yep it sure does doesn’t it. It’s life.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:01 PM

The numbers executed are a pittance in relation to the number of abortions and to the number of murders in this country.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-death-sentence

CW on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

That would be a great trade off. I would agree with that too.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:03 PM

Where is nathor the baby-killer?

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

I’ll see what I can do about that . . . . . .

ATHEISM SUCKS!

That ought to do it. They should be here soon.

listens2glenn on January 5, 2012 at 9:05 PM

The numbers executed are a pittance in relation to the number of abortions and to the number of murders in this country.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-death-sentence

CW on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

That would be a great trade off. I would agree with that too.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:03 PM
</blockquote

Yup! I would've agreed with such a tradeoff even back when I liked the death penalty.

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 9:06 PM

MUST SEE: Every single person needs to watch “180″.

apocalypse on January 5, 2012 at 9:07 PM

Occasionally, folks wonder why I’m passionately pro-life.

Tina Korbe on Jan 5, 2012 8:10 PM

You need to see the 180movie.

apocalypse on January 5, 2012 at 9:14 PM

I will admit I am conflicted over the death penalty. I do admit that I will gladly do away with the death penalty in exchange for the ending of abortion in America. The numbers executed are a pittance in relation to the number of abortions and to the number of murders in this country.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-death-sentence

CW on January 5, 2012 at 8:52 PM

I hear ya, but consider this: abortion and anti capital punishment both are positions which devalue life and justice.

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:16 PM

Where is nathor the baby-killer?

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 8:33 PM

He is writing the standard of when the baby is a baby, and when it is still eligible to be called another name.
So far he seems to have narrowed down his ruling to – it’s a baby if it’s more than 10 inches long and more than 21 weeks gestation. If a 25 weeker is SGA (small for gestational age) they are ineligible for being called a baby and must be called another name that sounds scientific so Nathor can feel good about his 1973 definition of life.

batterup on January 5, 2012 at 9:17 PM

I never knew this. While I think I’m pro choice

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 8:55 PM

BTW Science at this time knows the human heart starts beating at around 22 days of gestation.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 9:18 PM

canopfor on January 5, 2012 at 8:48 PM
—————————————

Canopfor, note Walker and this administration turned them in for investigation. Now watch the progs here make it much more of a deal than it is. They were embezzling. They got turned in. Unless I am missing more facts that come out I see it as a good thing that they asked for an investigation.

wi farmgirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:00 PM

wi farmgirl:Yup,demanding an investigation,is the right thing to do
and yes,the MSM,and Teacher Union goons,are going to ha
ve a riot with this,btw,got enough snow yet!:)

canopfor on January 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM

Cw
I really don’t feel any government should have the right to tell any one what to do with their body. I’m 46 and I do not have any children I’ve never had to make that choice,so that’s why I said what I said. My lady has 3 adopted children so please don’t even go there!

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM

Oh yes, I am PRO death penalty!

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:23 PM

I hear ya, but consider this: abortion and anti capital punishment both are positions which devalue life and justice.

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:16 PM

I think that there can be a strong argument made that CP if used correctly actually promotes justice and the value of life. CP in the grand scheme of things is rarely used. Note, also I see a lot of difference in the killing of an innocent and the killing of someone who has taken lives. I suspect taking the Church’s “The Seamless Garment” may seem consistent but I think that is simplistic.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 9:26 PM

It has long been determined and still applied that death occurs when the heart stops beating. That is how it’s clinically defined. It has been even longer determined that death is the opposite of living.

Would it not at least be consistent that if the above is agreed upon then life must (at minimum) begin with the first heartbeat?

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:26 PM

I really don’t feel any government should have the right to tell any one what to do with their body. I’m 46 and I do not have any children I’ve never had to make that choice,so that’s why I said what I said. My lady has 3 adopted children so please don’t even go there!

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM

Here’s the catch: a child developing in his or her mother’s uterus may be inside her body, but is not part of her body. Rather, that child is a separate body–a separate person–who has rights that ought to be respected.

Mr. Prodigy on January 5, 2012 at 9:28 PM

don’t even go there!

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM

Where? You mean where there is a second human life involved with its own separate heartbeat and DNA? There?

You keep ignoring that heartbeat now.

Congrats to your lady friend.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 9:28 PM

Would it not at least be consistent that if the above is agreed upon then life must (at minimum) begin with the first heartbeat?

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:26 PM

The prochoicers would never go for it. They realize science(oh there is that word again) is forever changing….. that is why in general they simply go with the “but we cannot tell a woman what to do with her own body” argument.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 9:30 PM

I think that there can be a strong argument made that CP if used correctly actually promotes justice and the value of life.

CW on January 5, 2012 at 9:26 PM

That is precisely what I’m saying. To be anti capital punishment is devaluing life and justice.

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:31 PM

I really don’t feel any government should have the right to tell any one what to do with their body. I’m 46 and I do not have any children I’ve never had to make that choice,so that’s why I said what I said. My lady has 3 adopted children so please don’t even go there!

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:21 PM

But it’s not their body. It’s a baby’s body.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Cw
so my argument is, I don’t think the government should have anything to do ones body! Agree or disagree?

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Cw
so my argument is, I don’t think the government should have anything to do ones body! Agree or disagree?

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:31 PM

Thanks for the 80′s feminazi talking point.

Fact is, it’s not “their” body. The body they’re killing is someone else’s.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:33 PM

It is the womans child, right? If that person makes a decision that they can’t support that child it is their choice. What if the government said you had to have that child no matter what your income is, but don’t worry we will help. Isn’t that what part of our country problem is? To many ppl using the system like a debt card? The woman who had my lady’s children had seven kids each one was taken from her and each one has very bad mental problems. So now you might be able to see where I’m coming from.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:42 PM

Cw
so my argument is, I don’t think the government should have anything to do ones body! Agree or disagree?

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:31 PM

I realize it wasn’t addressed to me but if you’ll allow…

The government absolutely has authority when one body is used to violate another life. Surely there is no one to disagree with such a notion. The argument then becomes, “is that what’s growing inside a woman another life?” More to the point: we know it’s another [something]; but is it a life?

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:44 PM

It is the womans child, right? If that person makes a decision that they can’t support that child it is their choice. What if the government said you had to have that child no matter what your income is, but don’t worry we will help. Isn’t that what part of our country problem is? To many ppl using the system like a debt card? The woman who had my lady’s children had seven kids each one was taken from her and each one has very bad mental problems. So now you might be able to see where I’m coming from.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:42 PM

You make a good argument for slavery. It’s my slave – I own it – therefore I can dispose of it as I wish, especially since it’s not cost effective.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:46 PM

It is the womans child, right? If that person makes a decision that they can’t support that child it is their choice. What if the government said you had to have that child no matter what your income is, but don’t worry we will help.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:42 PM

The above can be used when talking about a six year old. Any different then?

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:46 PM

It has long been determined and still applied that death occurs when the heart stops beating. That is how it’s clinically defined. It has been even longer determined that death is the opposite of living.

Would it not at least be consistent that if the above is agreed upon then life must (at minimum) begin with the first heartbeat?

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 9:26 PM

I asked a doctor for a layman’s way of telling if someone is truly, finally, hopelessly stone-cold dead or not.

Being a fellow techie he responded “No heart and brain activity. If your power supply and CPU aren’t working, you’re gone.”

I’ve gone by that metric ever since.

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 9:52 PM

Anuts
If you saw what I saw on a daily basis you might have a bit of a different outlook.
I am catholic so I know what I’m suppose to believe, but if you saw what I saw you would think differently. My girls daughter is 11 with a mentally of a 6 yr old.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:53 PM

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 9:52 PM

That sounds reasonable.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:54 PM

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 9:52 PM

Babirs are not electric…

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 9:54 PM

I don’t think I will change anyones mind, so i’ll leave it at that

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:55 PM

Anuts
If you saw what I saw on a daily basis you might have a bit of a different outlook.
I am catholic so I know what I’m suppose to believe, but if you saw what I saw you would think differently. My girls daughter is 11 with a mentally of a 6 yr old.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:53 PM

I don’t think so.

A person’s humanity is not based on your personal experience, financial situation, location, circumstances, whether they’re wanted or not, etc.

Humanity is intrinsic. And even our founding documents say that “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” comes from God, not from man or the state.

Frankly, your argument is weak and deeply flawed. And if you’re Catholic, you should perhaps study what the Church teaches regarding the right to life. I hope you consider it.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 9:57 PM

Heartbeats don’t matter. It is the brain, and more importantly, how developed it is. When somebody is brain dead, but their heart still beats, they pull the plug. The person is dead. A fetus has no brain to speak of. The cows you slaughter for a big mac have a much bigger brain than some fetus. So you can’t use the argument that by killing the fetus, you are causing pain to a sentient entity. If you cared about any of that stuff, you’d all be vegetarians. And if the issue is that there is something special about how advanced the human brain is, let me remind you that that level of advancement is not achieved even at birth. The brain continues to form connections for years and the human being eventually forms emotions, ideas, fears, etc.. At the beginning, however, there’s not much there, certainly not the higher functions that separate humans from animals, so don’t think that by killing some 9 week fetus, for example, you are killing what makes a human being a human being. Even a newborn baby is less self-aware than a cat.

The anti-abortion sentiment, therefore, is not based on compassion. Nor is it based on being “pro-life” in general, for that would require the individual to also be anti-war and anti-capital punishment. So what is it all about? It’s about dogma. And like they say, my karma will run over your dogma.

keep the change on January 5, 2012 at 9:58 PM

Babirs are not electric…

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 9:54 PM

No, but he has a point.

I would be willing to accept those parameters because the heart starts to beat in 22 days – which is before one can even know if there is pregnancy.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 10:00 PM

The anti-abortion sentiment, therefore, is not based on compassion. Nor is it based on being “pro-life” in general, for that would require the individual to also be anti-war and anti-capital punishment. So what is it all about? It’s about dogma. And like they say, my karma will run over your dogma.

keep the change on January 5, 2012 at 9:58 PM

My pro life stance is based on dogma, yes. But do you know what the word dogma means? A dogma is a set of principles concerning faith, morals and behavior. My “dogma”, or principles, tells me it is wrong to take the life of an innocent person.

Capital punishment and war are not intrinsically evil. There can be and are justifications for killing a guilty person convicted of a heinous crime, or killing an enemy combatant. However, my “dogma” tells me abortion is intrinsically evil because the unborn baby is innocent.

Therein lies the difference.

dukecitygirl on January 5, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Heartbeats don’t matter. It is the brain, and more importantly, how developed it is. When somebody is brain dead, but their heart still beats, they pull the plug. The person is dead.
keep the change on January 5, 2012 at 9:58 PM

So what is your excuse, reprobate?

tom daschle concerned on January 5, 2012 at 10:06 PM

Babirs are not electric…

OmahaConservative on January 5, 2012 at 9:54 PM

It’s an analogy, Einstein. And what are ‘Babirs’?

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 10:13 PM

If you saw what I saw on a daily basis you might have a bit of a different outlook.
I am catholic so I know what I’m suppose to believe, but if you saw what I saw you would think differently. My girls daughter is 11 with a mentally of a 6 yr old.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 9:53 PM

No one can see what others see on any regular basis. And yes, it would affect differences in outlook. But it’s important to not over emphasize perspectives when dealing with right and wrong. And that is what this is about. Morals deal in absolutes.

I wish you and yours well, sir.

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 10:19 PM

Anuts
Thanks
What I’m really afraid of is when this child is 18, and IF her mentality gets to say 12,14, then she get pregnant. Then what, if some prolife ppl had their way we wouldn’t have anywhere to turn. My lady would take that baby and hope and pray it would be normal, but what if the child is the same? I really don’t think she could handle another child like that. What I see isn’t what she sees.

angrymike on January 5, 2012 at 10:32 PM

Planed Parenthood? Pahleeze! Only liberal come up with a name for what is the exact opposite of what they do. It’s where they go when they didn’t plan on being a parent.

CaliforniaRefugee on January 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM

Heartbeats don’t matter. It is the brain

Hmmm… Interesting.

When somebody is brain dead

I notice that qualifier in front of the word dead. I see it from time to time on subjects related and unrelated. Also interesting, I’ve never seen the qualifying word “heart” in front of dead. I wonder why that is…

If you cared about any of that stuff, you’d all be vegetarians.

That’s silly. I have no moral confusion over carnivorism and canabalism.

The anti-abortion sentiment, therefore, is not based on compassion. Nor is it based on being “pro-life” in general, for that would require the individual to also be anti-war and anti-capital punishment. So what is it all about? It’s about dogma. And like they say, my karma will run over your dogma.

keep the change on January 5, 2012 at 9:58 PM

The rest of the above is not in the slightest of difficulty if your moral code contains a hint of justice.

anuts on January 5, 2012 at 10:33 PM

If only we could strip them of federal funding…heck, if we could send the whole debate back to the state level where it belongs.

MelonCollie on January 5, 2012 at 8:24 PM

I disagree, the human right to their own life is a federal issue. If the right to live is not a federal issue, what is?

Dollayo on January 5, 2012 at 10:59 PM

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