Is it possible to ruin “Imagine”?

posted at 1:25 pm on January 2, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

I have never understood the affection for “Imagine,” John Lennon’s least-imaginative pop hit.  The music is dull and dreary, the lyrics a paean to an utterly childish Utopianism, and practically a prescription for surrender.  At least “Power to the People” imagined that people could change the world.  The ballad that many consider to be Lennon’s best work in his career did nothing but dream that all dissent and individual perspective would drain magically from the human race so that we could all live in peace, or perhaps a boredom-induced stupor.  It’s existential nonsense to which it’s not even terribly pleasant to listen, let alone contemplate.

I accept that I’m firmly in the minority on this point, which was driven home when a performer had the gall to adjust one line in the song to fit his own personal childish Utopianism on New Years Eve, and get castigated for a kind of secular heresy:

Cee Lo Green upset John Lennon fans on Saturday night by performing a soulful version of the songwriter’s classic “Imagine” with the lyrics changed from “nothing to kill or die for / and no religion too” to “nothing to kill or die for / and all religion’s true.” According to some fans, Green changed the meaning of the song by switching out the line. “The whole point of that lyric is that religion causes harm,” tweeted someone with the handle @geekysteven. “If ‘all religion’s true’ it would be a pretty bleak place.”

No more so than imagining no heaven, I’d argue.  Frankly, if I liked the original, I’d be more irritated with Cee-Lo’s vocal rendition than with the change of lyrics.  There’s a certain amount of irony, as one atheist wrote, in Cee-Lo’s presentation, too:

Cee-Lo Green claims that he was merely attempting to be tolerant and inclusive, but his alteration is anything but tolerant and inclusive and it is also nonsensical (especially since he sung the part about no Hell below us and above us only sky). But what can we expect from someone who sings, “Imagine no possessions” while wearing a fur coat.

As a matter of fact, all religions believe that they are in possession of “the Truth” and yet none have presented any valid evidence for their claims. Most religions conflict with each other at the core and their value on faith rather than evidence leaves believers with no independent way of judging which religion(s) if any is actually true. The only way to settle the matter is often through violence and a quick history of religion supports this very problem. John Lennon understood that and that was one of the main themes of the song.

Well, atheism hasn’t proven itself either; it’s a belief in no God at all.  The only approach based on objective proof would be agnosticism, not atheism.  As for religions causing violence, perhaps the author in this case should familiarize himself with the histories of the explicitly atheist communist nations in the 20th century for a better understanding that violence comes from human nature, not religious belief.

Besides, remakes don’t ruin songs.  Anyone who wants to hear the original recording of “Imagine” can, unfortunately, hear it just about everywhere on the radio, as well as buy a copy for replay at any time.  I’ll just keep changing the channel when it starts playing on my stereo.

What do you think of “Imagine”? Take the poll:

Update: From the comments, what do you get when you cross the instrumental from “Imagine” and the vocals from Van Halen’s “Jump”? A much duller version of “Jump,” really:


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In science, the lack of a physical observation is enough proof that something is not present. For example, “no reading for helium in my air sample? No helium exists.” Would you tell the scientist he has not “proved” there is no helium? Of course you wouldn’t.

This is what my original discussion point means with regards to “Well, atheism hasn’t proven itself either.”

BierManVA on January 2, 2012 at 4:05 PM

How does one perform a measurement of God?

You are only half right. We know of helium and how to determine its presence. What about before we even knew there was helium? What if I told you there is another unmeasured gas in the atmosphere I can not describe or observe? Why am I wrong? At one time there was no “proof” for the existence of helium. Or even knowledge that it did exist for that matter.

You can’t measure God. You need a new proof or a new measuring device.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:13 PM

And agnostics? They are just intellectually lazy
mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Using the scientific method is lazy? Mmmmmkay. \

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 4:14 PM

BTW BierManVA, I take your post to me to mean that there is no Helium in the sample, but it is not proof there is no Helium anywhere in existence.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 4:11 PM

So you agree there could be unicorns somewhere then? I don’t. Because if we use that train of thought, we can NEVER say “there is no …” about anything.

BierManVA on January 2, 2012 at 4:15 PM

Hardly a surprise that there would be no love for either Lennon or his song on a conservative site. Funny, but I’ve always thought that raging liberal Lennon would have become more conservative as he aged. Maybe much more conservative.

John was not a nice human being, and could be downright cruel (a trait encouraged by Ono) at times, especially toward his first wife and older son. But, unlike McCartney, who I’ve come to thoroughly dislike since Linda died, John was smart. He was well capable of finding the folly in liberalism, and courageous enough to change his mind…and try to convince others. There was a reason Nixon was fixated in getting John kicked out of the country.

“Imagine” is just Lennon’s opinion, at the time it was written. It’s art–take it or leave it, but there’s nothing to get worked up about here. Having said that, the song should be sung the way it was written, and any performer who doesn’t like the lyrics should go with something he/she can sing without revision. Art is a very personal expression and should be respected as such.

Anyone who thinks the Beatles are “the most overrated band ever” is either young, stupid, or both. Listen to some of the music that topped the charts in the late 50′s-early 60′s, and you’ll realize just how important and influential the Beatles really were.

“She Loves You” to “Revolver” in just three years. An amazing musical evolution. You don’t have to like the Beatles, but any open-minded, halfway intelligent person would give them their due.

Meredith on January 2, 2012 at 4:17 PM

Kini’s response isn’t about the actual song, or Cee Lo’s actual musical production its his about his belief that all black men are thugs.

libfreeordie on January 2, 2012 at 3:22 PM

Liberalism really is a disease. Only a diseased mind would make such an illogical jump. This a$$ backwards logic of your also dictates that 99% of HotGas posters and all of its blog writers are racist since we all find Obama to be a miserable failure. Is that how you view us?

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:17 PM

Personally, I think modern art and it’s million dollar prices are comical and outrageous. Especially when my tax dollars go to support them.

The price of art in galleries is determined entirely by the logic of supply and demand. Now, admittedly, some of the ways certain artists build demand for their work have next to nothing to do with artistic talent and everything to do with their ability to work the socialite crowds that can afford to purchase art. Stephen Sondheim encapsulated the silliness of modern art brilliantly in the song Putting It Together from the musical Sunday In the Park with George.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJFz-ucuTvs

And calling me a bigot for point out vulgarity show remarkable ignorance on your part

You didn’t just call Cee Lo “vulgar” you called him a “thug.” When the lyrics to his music are not “thuggish” in anyway. I guess I should just call you an illiterate?

libfreeordie on January 2, 2012 at 4:17 PM

You can’t measure God. You need a new proof or a new measuring device.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:13 PM

Clever, but the Bible sure “measured God.” A lot. People even talked to him apparently. Any scientist observing that would surely have some proof. Sadly, hearsay is not proof.

BierManVA on January 2, 2012 at 4:19 PM

I don’t live my life for your kids. (I’m slightly suspicious of people who can’t seem to think of anything else.)

Adult entertainment is for adults. Do you limit your viewing/listening content to that of the Disney Channel? Lawrence Welk, perhaps? You make the I Love Lucy choco-factory reference all the more relevant.

Your life sounds absurd and just a little boring.

Thanks for your input. You and libtardordie occupy opposite ends of stupid. You’ll meet soon.

Capitalist Hog on January 2, 2012 at 4:11 PM

I don’t have kids, but I know plenty of parents that allow their kids to listening to this crap. They all end up living in tents screaming mic check and claiming to be a 99% of something.

Boring life? By whose standards? Certainly not by yours.

Adult content seems to be the only way for these people to sell records. People make excuses, call it edgy and poo-poo it as art.

That’s my point. Like Ed points out in this post, this drivel has no musical value.

Kini on January 2, 2012 at 4:20 PM

You didn’t just call Cee Lo “vulgar” you called him a “thug.” When the lyrics to his music are not “thuggish” in anyway. I guess I should just call you an illiterate?

libfreeordie on January 2, 2012 at 4:17 PM

OK then, a vulgar thug, better?

Kini on January 2, 2012 at 4:22 PM

Well Ed, the onus isn’t on atheists to prove a negative: it’s like asking someone to prove that invisible unicorns don’t exist or that the tooth fairy doesn’t exist. Indeed, theists are the ones who have something to prove.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:10 PM

Bingo! “Atheists haven’t proven their belief” is a most un-conservative argument. No conservative would allow a liberal to get away with forcing them to prove a negative, yet they are totally cool using that tactic when it comes to confronting atheists.

holygoat on January 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM

What’s the difference between Eminem and this clown?

Kini on January 2, 2012 at 4:11 PM

We’ve already tried to point out the difference. Cee Lo Green does not rap. Eminem does.

Maybe you have confused him with someone else?

Abby Adams on January 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM

So you agree there could be unicorns somewhere then? I don’t. Because if we use that train of thought, we can NEVER say “there is no …” about anything.

BierManVA on January 2, 2012 at 4:15 PM

It sounds like you mean to say you don’t believe they exist. I don’t either. I think it can be proven they don’t exist.
Trying to prove God exists? Good luck.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM

“Imagine” is just Lennon’s opinion, at the time it was written. It’s art–take it or leave it, but there’s nothing to get worked up about here. Having said that, the song should be sung the way it was written, and any performer who doesn’t like the lyrics should go with something he/she can sing without revision. Art is a very personal expression and should be respected as such.

If you put your opininion out there, then you can expect that it will be criticized. Whatever your political standpoint, the quality of the thoughts aren’t there. In fact, “Imagine” does a very good job of making a case that runs quite counter to the point that Lennon was trying to make. Far from being a utopia, his imagined world seems like a very sad, desolate place.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 4:25 PM

We’ve already tried to point out the difference. Cee Lo Green does not rap. Eminem does.

Maybe you have confused him with someone else?

Abby Adams on January 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM

That’s why I called cRAP, because its all crap!

Kini on January 2, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Clever, but the Bible sure “measured God.” A lot. People even talked to him apparently. Any scientist observing that would surely have some proof. Sadly, hearsay is not proof.

BierManVA on January 2, 2012 at 4:19 PM

Nor is it a measurement that there is no God present. But I am not interested in trying to prove God’s existence to you. I am not capable of doing such a thing. Besides, each person must prove it to themselves.

I am more interested in trying to understand how it is activist Atheists still have no belief system when they are so hell bent on proselytizing their beliefs. Again, I don’t believe in ghosts, but I don’t harangue people over it.

Are you or are you not interested in convincing people that God does not exist?

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Personally I don’t believe in ghosts, but i don’t waste any of my time trying to convince others to see things my way either. However, far too many Atheists feel they have to convince believers of the rightness of their belief. Once someone crosses that line they certainly have a faith and are most likely practicing a religion. Atheists can’t have it both ways and still claim to have no faith.

Faith is the belief in things unseen, NOT the DISBELIEF in things NOT seen. On the contrary, I think you are confusing an atheist’s undying love for REASON as FAITH.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:31 PM

Faith is the belief in things unseen, NOT the DISBELIEF in things NOT seen. On the contrary, I think you are confusing an atheist’s undying love for REASON as FAITH.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:31 PM

OK. Do you hold open the possibility that there is a god?

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:33 PM

NotCoach, I don’t think the God issue is provable either way. Maybe someday, but certainly not today.

Its seems BierManVA put unicorns and God in the same category. I don’t.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 4:34 PM

It is impossible to ruin a song that was so horrible anyway. And John Lennon was an awful person and one of the biggest hypocrites of all time.

St. Regis Philbin on January 2, 2012 at 4:34 PM

It sounds like you mean to say you don’t believe they exist. I don’t either. I think it can be proven they don’t exist.
Trying to prove God exists? Good luck.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM

It is a universal constant that a negative can not be proven. It is a reasonable assumption that unicorns do not exist. It is a scientific impossibility to prove that they don’t exist.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:35 PM

To all,

For those debating about proving God or using some scientific criteria for determining His existence, I think they are truly talking past each other. The first thing we need to do in discussing God is how we come to know things. Because until we can come to an agreement on how things can be known, what is the point? I mean, I can give a bunch of reasons for belief in God, but if God is ruled out because He can’t be falsified or tested scientifically, then what’s the point? I ask the atheists/agnostics here (that means you too AP), on what avenues can someone truly know something? Are there many ways, or is it only through science? If it’s through science, I suggest taking a look at these articles critiquing scientism (here and here).

Also, when going through this “burden of proof” thing, it really depends on what a person who says he/she is an atheist really means by the word, many atheists like to say they simply lack a belief in God, which allows them to play the scoffer and not have to make any defensible claims of their own. However, if an atheist is one who asserts that there is no God, then he/she has made a claim and it should be weighed against competing claims. The atheist of the first definition is one I respect as long as they don’t go around telling us religious folk that our beliefs are nonsense because we can all play the scoffer (Ex: “You mean we’re all here just cause, that’s really ridiculous”). For the latter, I can respect that too, but be ready to defend your claims.

Mike Rathbone on January 2, 2012 at 4:35 PM

Faith is the belief in things unseen, NOT the DISBELIEF in things NOT seen. On the contrary, I think you are confusing an atheist’s undying love for REASON as FAITH.

There is a HUGE difference between the two.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:31 PM

I would say you confuse “reason” as fact.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM

In fact, “Imagine” does a very good job of making a case that runs quite counter to the point that Lennon was trying to make. Far from being a utopia, his imagined world seems like a very sad, desolate place.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 4:25 PM

It’s a song, not a political treatise. Every get fed up with the rat race? A lot of rock music offers escapism, not a workable strategy, but sometimes it’s enough to think, if momentarily, that “everything is gonna be alright”.

OptionsTrader on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM

Lehamfox – It was generally phrased as “rare”, yes, but the implication is strong that it’s so rare as to be likely nonexistent. Thus expanded in “School for Abuse” : “for any chaste liver to haunt them was a black swan, or a white crow”. Or in “Felicitie of Man”: “Such faith as was between Damon and Pythias must be sought for in some new-found land, where swans be black: for it will hardly be found in the known world.” The parallel is “as scarce as hen’s teeth”. Are you saying some chickens have teeth, then?

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM

That’s why I called cRAP, because its all crap!

Kini on January 2, 2012 at 4:27 PM

Then it doesn’t really make sense as to why you would capitalize the R in crap. That would imply that rap music is crap. But apparently you are referring to something else entirely. So what is it then? Pop music? Modern music? Any music with profanity?

You are not making comeplete sense.

Abby Adams on January 2, 2012 at 4:37 PM

“I accept that I’m firmly in the minority on this point . . .”

No, i am not sure that you are. I am a musician (have the degree to prove it, for whatever that’s worth), have played guitar and written music for almost 30 years, and am a fan of pop, rock, folk, etc. Yeh, that doesn’t make me an expert of any kind, and I hate the moniker of “expert” or “critic” anyway.

BUT, let me say that, musically, I have always hated this song. The words “lame” or “boring” or even “sucks” fit it best. Lyrically, it is even worse. Why is it popular? My guess is that it is easy for the acid damaged brains of ex-hippies to understand and hum along.

guitarman67 on January 2, 2012 at 4:38 PM

Lehamfox – It was generally phrased as “rare”, yes, but the implication is strong that it’s so rare as to be likely nonexistent.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM

No, it’s rare. Rare is not impossible but possible. It’s an insurance term referring to things that you can’t realistically write cover for because they are infrequent, unexpected, but clearly possible.

lexhamfox on January 2, 2012 at 4:42 PM

I would say you confuse “reason” as fact

Reason is the faculty we use to determine what is fact and what is fiction. It’s no mere coincidence that many religions value faith over reason. Christianity anyone?

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:44 PM

Reason is the faculty we use to determine what is fact and what is fiction. It’s no mere coincidence that many religions value faith over reason. Christianity anyone?

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:44 PM

Activists Atheists are all the same it seems. Anti-theists at their cores. What is reasonable about what you just posted?

And yes, this comment does prove you confuse fact with reason. We have “reasoned” out many facts during existence that have later proven to be false.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 4:48 PM

Beatles weren’t even close to being in the same class musically.

Trafalgar on January 2, 2012 at 2:39 PM

Have to disagree with you here-George Harrison was one of the greatest guitarists of all time, McCartney is widely acknowledged as one of the best bassists (especially in their later work), and last year a Rolling Stone poll had him at #3 (after #2 Flea and #1 John Entwistle). John Lennon regularly ends up on lists of Top 10 Rhythm Guitar Players of All Time as well.

Even Starkey (Ringo) made Rolling Stone’s list last year of the Top 10 Drummers of All Time. He was #5.

Del Dolemonte on January 2, 2012 at 4:52 PM

OK. Do you hold open the possibility that there is a god?

Better question: Do you hold open the possibility that unicorns exists?

Answer: Why should I?

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:52 PM

Bingo! “Atheists haven’t proven their belief” is a most un-conservative argument. No conservative would allow a liberal to get away with forcing them to prove a negative, yet they are totally cool using that tactic when it comes to confronting atheists.

holygoat on January 2, 2012 at 4:23 PM

If somebody makes a claim to know that there is no God, and they further assert that have arrived at this realization through rational thought and evidence, then I think that it is fair game to ask for a show of proof. Otherwise, they should not claim to know for sure. I don’t have a problem with agnostics, but these supposedly rational atheists (with their little Darwin-fish bumper stickers) are full of it.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 4:56 PM

liblietard

I just realized what you did. Sorry I missed it before.

Most rappers are black. Kini has a strong disaffinity for rap music. Ergo Kini must not like blacks.

This failed reasoning removes you from serious consideration in this discussion.

@Kini
I should revise my insult toward you. I do not back away from the force of my words. But I think I should redirect them more accurately. I take issue with your ideas. I know nothing about you as a man to insult you.

I actually appreciate strong, very strong convictions. Your standards surely serve you well. They are just loftier than mine in matters of entertainment.

Capitalist Hog on January 2, 2012 at 4:56 PM

Perhaps the best choice is not to ask people devoid of talent to perform during their 15 minutes.

mrmiji on January 2, 2012 at 4:59 PM

It’s a song, not a political treatise. Every get fed up with the rat race? A lot of rock music offers escapism, not a workable strategy, but sometimes it’s enough to think, if momentarily, that “everything is gonna be alright”.

OptionsTrader on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM

I don’t know about you, but I like my escapism to take me to a happier, better world, not a sadder, more lonely world. The thing that I don’ like about “Imagine” is that it is so utterly superficial and vapid, with a pretense of depth. “Twist and Shout” is fun and shallow, but nobody pretends that there is any deeper meaning there….

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 5:00 PM

Better question: Do you hold open the possibility that unicorns exists?

Answer: Why should I?

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 4:52 PM

Same answer. You don’t practice any sort of reason. You practice a faith. While I don’t believe in ghosts, I don’t argue against them either. I hold open the remote possibility I could be wrong. It is akin to String Theory. I find no logical reason to believe in String Theory either. But I could be wrong.

You do not just simply disbelieve in the existence of God, you are hostile to the possibility and unlikely to be convinced even if a so called scientific proof could be made for His existence.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 5:03 PM

Activists Atheists are all the same it seems. Anti-theists at their cores. What is reasonable about what you just posted?

And yes, this comment does prove you confuse fact with reason. We have “reasoned” out many facts during existence that have later proven to be false.

Reason – a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : sanity

As I said, reason is the faculty we use to determine facts. I never said that knowledge isn’t evolutionary. I think that’s pretty obvious. Nonetheless, faith flies in the face of both reason and facts:

Faith – b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:07 PM

It’s a song, not a political treatise.

OptionsTrader on January 2, 2012 at 4:36 PM

Like I said in a comment earlier, here’s what Lennon himself said about the song:

He [John Lennon] once admitted that “Imagine” — an absolute equality created by the dissolution of governments, borders, organized religion and economic class — was “virtually the Communist Manifesto.

He was also quoted as saying:

But the first record was too real for people, so nobody bought it . . . ‘Imagine’ was the same message but sugarcoated. . . . ‘Imagine‘ is a big hit almost everywhere — anti-religious, anti-nationalistic, anti-conventional, anti-capitalistic, but because it is sugarcoated it is accepted. Now I understand what you have to do: Put your political message across with a little honey.”

ITguy on January 2, 2012 at 5:07 PM

Lexhamfox – I assure you that when an Elizabethan scribbler used the term, he wasn’t thinking what “rare” means to insurance agents. Nor did an ancient Greek when coining “atheism” follow strict sequential English syntax. Words and phrases will shift meanings throughout the years, and I do not complain about it, but I do get annoyed at those who claim to dissect the “true” meaning of a term as one that wasn’t meant by those who made it up in the first place.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 5:11 PM

Testing, testing.

Please excuse my posting problems. Can’t figure out what’s wrong.

PatriotGal2257 on January 2, 2012 at 5:12 PM

While I don’t believe in ghosts, I don’t argue against them either. I hold open the remote possibility I could be wrong.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 5:03 PM

… because, mayhaps, otherwise completely reliable witnesses might say, from time to time, they saw something that might be classifiable as “ghostly,” and it would be irrational to just declare them “crazy” and dismiss what they have to say because you have no explanation — or taste — for their story?

:)

/oblique

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 5:12 PM

Have to disagree with you here-George Harrison was one of the greatest guitarists of all time, McCartney is widely acknowledged as one of the best bassists (especially in their later work), and last year a Rolling Stone poll had him at #3 (after #2 Flea and #1 John Entwistle). John Lennon regularly ends up on lists of Top 10 Rhythm Guitar Players of All Time as well.

Rolling Stone? Really? I have a substantially low opinion of critics, and especially Rolling Stone. Most critics are just musicians who couldn’t cut it performing.

Hey, the Beatles, early on, had a certain cynergy and sincere enthusiasm that was charming, and their music seemed well crafted. Later, some of it was just plain weird, but even that was at least fairly creative. I firmly believe that the key to music is that it “speaks to” the listener. It might not speak to you or me, but if it speaks to someone else–live and let live. Personally, I think that Imagine is childish crap that John turned out in about 15 minutes–I don’t like it, but someone else might.

Also, I don’t go in for all of that “best ever bassist/drummer/triangle player” etc. crap. Doesn’t mean anything to me. Heck, I’ve heard a 60 something banjo player sing a song on the street that moved me like Imagine never could. Go figure. Best chops? Who really cares if the music doesn’t communicate. Case in point, Yngwie Malmsteen. Wow, what chops, but his music leaves me cold as ice.

guitarman67 on January 2, 2012 at 5:14 PM

People “reasoned” that the earth was flat. Again, you confuse reason with fact, Mazer.
There is also an elitest bent your athiesm. You “assume” that anyone who believes in God is lacking is “reason”. It also appears that you look down on such people.
So based of of what you have posted and the tone, I can reason you are an arrogant, elitest, religion hater.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:15 PM

Activist atheism is little more than unification over a shared hatred of the belief systems of others. There’s nothing reasonable about it.

Here was a video that was posted up on Facebook about why Atheists are angry:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/11/28/why-are-you-atheists-so-angry-kepticon-4/

I watched the whole thing and it was interesting as far as it goes, but the laundry list of things to be angry about and the expanded need to therefore destroy the claimed source of those atrocities is no more logical or reasonable than liberals who try to ascribe all evils to white males by example of white men in history committing atrocities.

Atheists who consider atheism to be some triumph of reason as a governing philosophy of life are doing a disservice to it. For as much as they proclaim to love reason, they don’t employ any in their vacuous, undirected group rage against religion.

BKennedy on January 2, 2012 at 5:17 PM

Lexhamfox – I assure you that when an Elizabethan scribbler used the term, he wasn’t thinking what “rare” means to insurance agents.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 5:11 PM

You had me at Damon and Pythias :)

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 5:22 PM

Same answer. You don’t practice any sort of reason. You practice a faith. While I don’t believe in ghosts, I don’t argue against them either. I hold open the remote possibility I could be wrong. It is akin to String Theory. I find no logical reason to believe in String Theory either. But I could be wrong.

You do not just simply disbelieve in the existence of God, you are hostile to the possibility and unlikely to be convinced even if a so called scientific proof could be made for His existence.

If you had “scientific proof” why would I be “hostile to the possibility”? It would be more than a “possibility” and therein lies the problem and the reason for the “hostility” in the first place: you HAVE NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF!

I also practice the “faith” that unicorns don’t exist. Unlike you, I don’t spend much time pondering the possibility however. (I have better things to do with my finite time on Earth.) On the other hand, I’m not nearly as militant towards Unicorn believers because fortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of them, and they also don’t expect me to subscribe to their views on the subject. Wonder why?

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:25 PM

PatriotGal2257 on January 2, 2012 at 5:12 PM

you fixed up yet?

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 5:26 PM

I turn the song off everytime it comes on the radio. Commie, Pinko. Good night nurse.

tomas on January 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM

I’m not nearly as militant towards Unicorn believers because fortunately, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of them, and they also don’t expect me to subscribe to their views on the subject. Wonder why?

mazer9

How telling. Like I said, a religion hater.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:30 PM

People “reasoned” that the earth was flat. Again, you confuse reason with fact, Mazer.
There is also an elitest bent your athiesm. You “assume” that anyone who believes in God is lacking is “reason”. It also appears that you look down on such people.
So based of of what you have posted and the tone, I can reason you are an arrogant, elitest, religion hater.

Yeah, but they didn’t stop at that. Knowledge is evolutionary. Reason and observation continues on. On the other hand, Christians still adhere to a book written two thousand years ago, and believe in talking snakes.

Oh the irony…

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:33 PM

I actually appreciate strong, very strong convictions. Your standards surely serve you well. They are just loftier than mine in matters of entertainment.

Capitalist Hog on January 2, 2012 at 4:56 PM

To each their own. I do not advocate censorship, just common sense.
I find anything that calls for violence, vulgarity, misogynistic violence, using language that throws the N-word around like an obligatory cheese platter offensive. Call me over-sensitive, but I find no redeeming value to so called music like that.

If people like it, fine. Listen to it to your hearts content. Just don’t expect me to except it for anything others than what it is, crap.

Kini on January 2, 2012 at 5:38 PM

you fixed up yet?

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 5:26 PM

I think so. Can’t quite figure out why my comment wasn’t posting. The preview function worked fine. I don’t know if one or some of the words I used were getting caught in a filter, not that I’d know which ones they were. Thanks for asking. :)

My comment was in response to an earlier remark about not paying attention to lyrics and just listening to the music. I said that I lost count of all the pop songs I’ve listened to with nice melodic arrangements, but then the terrible lyrics just made me disgusted enough to change the channel.

Those kinds of pop songs seemed to be the single biggest factor for turning me into a jazz fan. :)

PatriotGal2257 on January 2, 2012 at 5:40 PM

Yeah, but they didn’t stop at that. Knowledge is evolutionary. Reason and observation continues on. On the other hand, Christians still adhere to a book written two thousand years ago, and believe in talking snakes.

Oh the irony…

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:33 PM

Again you prove me correct about you. You are an anti-religious bigot who talks in a condescending tone to those who may believe.

You also seem rather ignorant about Christians. Their faith has evolved over time. I’ll just further chalk that up to your irrational hatred of them.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:41 PM

Yeah, but they didn’t stop at that. Knowledge is evolutionary. Reason and observation continues on. On the other hand, Christians still adhere to a book written two thousand years ago, and believe in talking snakes.

Oh the irony…

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:33 PM

There’s considerably more to Christianity than that. Your little cartoon view of Christianity seems awfully ill-informed for somebody who claims to be informed by reason and observation.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 5:41 PM

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:41 PM

=

Well said.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 5:42 PM

There’s considerably more to Christianity than that. Your little cartoon view of Christianity seems awfully ill-informed for somebody who claims to be informed by reason and observation.

I’m a college graduate who attended church and bible study from around the age of 12 up until I was 18. Believe me. I know many people who read the bible literally. Don’t try to belittle my own first-hand observation of Christianity.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:44 PM

I’m a college graduate who attended church and bible study from around the age of 12 up until I was 18. Believe me. I know many people who read the bible literally. Don’t try to belittle my own first-hand observation of Christianity.

mazer9 on

You obviously learned little more than contempt towards those that believe.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:46 PM

I’m a college graduate who attended church and bible study from around the age of 12 up until I was 18. Believe me. I know many people who read the bible literally. Don’t try to belittle my own first-hand observation of Christianity.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:44 PM

There’s really no need for me to belittle your views.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 5:50 PM

Again you prove me correct about you. You are an anti-religious bigot who talks in a condescending tone to those who may believe.

You also seem rather ignorant about Christians. Their faith has evolved over time. I’ll just further chalk that up to your irrational hatred of them.

I’m a former Christian (baptist) myself so I can speak from first-hand knowledge. At the end of the day, Christians believe if you don’t believe that a man name “Jesus Christ” died on a cross and magically arose from the dead 3 days later then you are going to burn for an eternity in a place called “Hell”. No amount of “evolution” changes that basic tenet of Christianity. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 5:52 PM

There’s really no need for me to belittle your views.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 5:50 PM

Love the college graduate quote. As if that someohow means he’s more intelligent than certain other people or has superior “reasoning” abilities.
Sounds like someone really resented going to church and being taught the Bible.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:54 PM

I said that I lost count of all the pop songs I’ve listened to with nice melodic arrangements, but then the terrible lyrics just made me disgusted enough to change the channel.

Those kinds of pop songs seemed to be the single biggest factor for turning me into a jazz fan. :)

PatriotGal2257 on January 2, 2012 at 5:40 PM

I ran into something like that in high school. I had to sort of mumble through some of Ozzy’s lyrics. Uneasy truce, Christianity and Metal :) But since, I’ve had to learn even more dissonance, as actors and actresses tell me what they really think, etc.

But I’ve got Shakespeare now, and there’s Mozart. I had to go get them myself. You’d never know I was a redneck … :)

… wish to Heaven Mozart had access to a six string and an amp.

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 5:54 PM

Fairly certain “Imagine” is primarily one of Yoko’s, but they knew if they promoted that nobody would listen to it and it would get no airplay. If the music is Lennon’s then it was just a throw-away doodle he threw at it. I bet they were both surprised it became a hit. It’s like nothing else he ever wrote. If there was such a list it would be #1 on Billboard’s “All-Time Most Naive Songs”.

curved space on January 2, 2012 at 5:56 PM

I’m a former Christian (baptist) myself so I can speak from first-hand knowledge. At the end of the day, Christians believe if you don’t believe that a man name “Jesus Christ” died on a cross and magically arose from the dead 3 days later then you are going to burn for an eternity in a place called “Hell”. No amount of “evolution” changes that basic tenet of Christianity. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

mazer9

Some do. Some don’t. That is also part of the evolution.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:56 PM

Some do. Some don’t. That is also part of the evolution.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:56 PM

To clarify, some believe you will go to hell. Others do not.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 6:01 PM

There are species that are essentially unchanged from the time of the dinosaurs still living on the earth, because they’re so well adapted to their ecological niche there wasn’t need of further change. “No amount of ‘evolution’ changes that..”

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 6:05 PM

Pointless O/T, just to toss something musical in lightly:

Igoshina’s interpretation of Impromptu

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 6:06 PM

Billboard’s “All-Time Most Naive Songs: #2 Ebony and Ivory”, McCartney & Wonder; #3 “Get Together”, The Youngbloods; #4 “Black & White”, Three Dog Night; #5 “Reach Out in the Darkness”, Friend & Lover…

curved space on January 2, 2012 at 6:07 PM

Cee-Lo better not answer any knocks at his door for awhile. It could be Yoko, prepared to give him a good swift karate kick in the cajones.

pilamaye on January 2, 2012 at 6:13 PM

Rolling Stone? Really? I have a substantially low opinion of critics, and especially Rolling Stone. Most critics are just musicians who couldn’t cut it performing.

-snip-

Also, I don’t go in for all of that “best ever bassist/drummer/triangle player” etc. crap. Doesn’t mean anything to me. Heck, I’ve heard a 60 something banjo player sing a song on the street that moved me like Imagine never could. Go figure. Best chops? Who really cares if the music doesn’t communicate. Case in point, Yngwie Malmsteen. Wow, what chops, but his music leaves me cold as ice.

guitarman67 on January 2, 2012 at 5:14 PM

Sorry, I should have noted that the Rolling Stone polls (the ones I cited for McCartney and Ringo) were Rolling Stone Reader polls, I totally agree with you about the RS “critics”.

And one of the Polls citing John Lennon as one of the best rhythm guitar players came from a Gibson Guitar poll of other guitarists.
The man was a genius with the Rickenbacker IMHO.

As for Ringo, I have actually seen him drum live many times, so do have a little experience in that department. He’s simply one of the best. The majority of people who say he’s a hack drummer have either never seen him live, or haven’t watched him closely in concert.

As I said, I’m highly partial to The Kinks from that particular musical time. But for anyone to claim The Beatles were “overrated” and had “no musical talent” simply don’t know what they’re talking about.

Del Dolemonte on January 2, 2012 at 6:15 PM

Love the college graduate quote. As if that someohow means he’s more intelligent than certain other people or has superior “reasoning” abilities.
Sounds like someone really resented going to church and being taught the Bible.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 5:54 PM

It really does seem that a lot of these supposedly rational atheists do have more than a little hostility towards believers, fortified with an undeserved sense of intellectual superiority.

I can understand disbelief, skepticism, and agnosticism. However, I fail to understand the hostility and certitude that a lot of these folks express, belittling people’s religious beliefs as mythologies or fairy tales, and claiming that their bigotry is scientific.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 6:19 PM

“Imagine” is a craptastic song to begin with. Cee-Lo didn’t make it any worse.

I literally loathe “Imagine”, I detest the Commie words and I hate that the melody literally gets stuck in my head. Hate, hate, hate.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on January 2, 2012 at 6:20 PM

I think mazer9 is probably kind of typical when it comes to activist Atheists. A great deal of resentment towards his own childhood. I don’t know that he is worth arguing with. He has his own demons to deal with. I really only engage them anymore to attempt to at least make them be honest. He was honest enough for me to understand he is less of an Atheist and more of an angry anti-Christian. A truly reasoned or reasonable person would be open to a discussion about God, not veer off into an angry rant against any particular religion.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 6:20 PM

“Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can”—–John Lenon (multimilllionare capitalist)

That’s my fav line

Dollayo on January 2, 2012 at 6:20 PM

ghostwriter and Not Coach, good posts.

I don’t get the hate either. It’s almost as if they can’t deal with it within themselves and turn it outward.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 6:25 PM

“Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can”—–John Lenon

That’s a country music song if ever I heard one. \

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 6:27 PM

Love the college graduate quote. As if that someohow means he’s more intelligent than certain other people or has superior “reasoning” abilities.
Sounds like someone really resented going to church and being taught the Bible.

Just wanted to highlight the fact that I have a pretty good grasp on the religion given my former experience coupled with a post-secondary degree.

Moreover, I did “resent” being forced to go to church when I much rather had been watching football. If you went to a black baptist church that lasted at least 2-hours too long perhaps you’d feel the same way.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 6:32 PM

I’m a former Christian (baptist) myself so I can speak from first-hand knowledge. At the end of the day, Christians believe if you don’t believe that a man name “Jesus Christ” died on a cross and magically arose from the dead 3 days later then you are going to burn for an eternity in a place called “Hell”. No amount of “evolution” changes that basic tenet of Christianity. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

mazer9

And athiests believe that the universe was created by non-causal spontaneous generation. To claim to be purely based upon science, the very basis of their belief system it to believe in an event that completely invalidates all scientific thought and laws of logic. To whit: a nonuniformity, that itself had no cause and was stable for all eternity until on one Thursday afternoon at 3 o’clock, it became unstable and just blew up, again, with no causal agent acting upon it to do so. That is a real problem for the whole scientific method and laws of logic: Something cannot occur without a cause. Yet, the whole foundation of the current cosmological theory for the origin of the universe rests upon such a premise. If said continuity existed and had been stable for all eternity before t=0, then, lacking a causative agent or action, it must therefore remain stable. If it became unstable at t=0, then it could not have been stable for the eternity before t=0. Thus, the athiest is left with the dilemma: believe in this non-causal spontanous generation explanation for the origin of the universe, or believe in an eternal, uncreated universe. Unfortunately, the scientific method does demonstrate that the universe is not eternal as demonstrated by entropy.

AZfederalist on January 2, 2012 at 6:33 PM

I ran into something like that in high school. I had to sort of mumble through some of Ozzy’s lyrics. Uneasy truce, Christianity and Metal :) But since, I’ve had to learn even more dissonance, as actors and actresses tell me what they really think, etc.

But I’ve got Shakespeare now, and there’s Mozart. I had to go get them myself. You’d never know I was a redneck … :)

… wish to Heaven Mozart had access to a six string and an amp.

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 5:54 PM

Can’t say I was ever into Ozzy, even when he was with Black Sabbath. :) But I know exactly what you mean with the cognitive dissonance. I used to be a Springsteen fan when he first came onto the rock scene and loved the musicianship and arrangements of his early albums with the E Street Band, without paying much (if any) attention to Bruce’s relatively lightweight lyrics. Then he got older and started mouthing his political opinions as if they really meant anything and promptly turned into the Tom Hanks of rock and roll. He got the OFF position on my radio dial in relatively short order.

Shakespeare and Mozart … some things are just timeless in their beauty for everyone to appreciate.

PatriotGal2257 on January 2, 2012 at 6:37 PM

Mazer, I hated being forced to go to church and CCW until I was 18 too. I got over it tho. You should try it sometime.

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 6:38 PM

I think mazer9 is probably kind of typical when it comes to activist Atheists. A great deal of resentment towards his own childhood. I don’t know that he is worth arguing with. He has his own demons to deal with. I really only engage them anymore to attempt to at least make them be honest. He was honest enough for me to understand he is less of an Atheist and more of an angry anti-Christian. A truly reasoned or reasonable person would be open to a discussion about God, not veer off into an angry rant against any particular religion.

Love the way people who believe in talking snakes and walking dead people are trying to psychoanalyze my childhood.

Oh, the irony…

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Billboard’s “All-Time Most Naive Songs: #5 “Reach Out in the Darkness”, Friend & Lover…

curved space on January 2, 2012 at 6:07 PM

I laugh myself absolutely silly every time I hear this song. Imagine … (LOL), Billboard has a category called “Naive Rock!”

PatriotGal2257 on January 2, 2012 at 6:43 PM

Well hell, as long as I’ve been on this thread this much I might as well give my opinion of the original topic —

“Imagine” has a pleasant-sounding tune that in the verses is hypnotically simplistic. The lyrics are a fairly well-crafted assemblage of variations on one notion – and that’s, paradoxically, absence of variation, indeed nothingness. Which make it near perfect as a symbol of the kind of “idealism” that inspired it: on the casual surface appealing but having no richness or substance whatsoever, and in its own way totalitarian. It’s the anthem of the land of the lotos-eaters. And since at its heart it’s about no variation, no surprise that people who love it treat any deviation from it as heresy.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Love the way people who believe in talking snakes and walking dead people are trying to psychoanalyze my childhood.

Oh, the irony…

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 6:39 PM

I don’t have to do anything to prove my point. You make it too easy. I haven’t brought up anything relating to Christianity. I have only been discussing how Atheists also have faith. But because I obviously believe in God you go straight to hostility towards Christianity. You scoff at the fact we find you obvious and predictable. That doesn’t change the fact that you are obvious and predictable.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 6:45 PM

I think mazer9 is probably kind of typical when it comes to activist Atheists. A great deal of resentment towards his own childhood. I don’t know that he is worth arguing with. He has his own demons to deal with. I really only engage them anymore to attempt to at least make them be honest. He was honest enough for me to understand he is less of an Atheist and more of an angry anti-Christian. A truly reasoned or reasonable person would be open to a discussion about God, not veer off into an angry rant against any particular religion.

Love the way people who believe in talking snakes and walking dead people are trying to psychoanalyze my childhood.

Oh, the irony…

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Now, this is ironic!

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Love the way people who believe in talking snakes and walking dead people are trying to psychoanalyze my childhood.

Oh, the irony…

mazer9

I’m agnostic. So tell me, what does that mean?

Hard Right on January 2, 2012 at 6:53 PM

people who believe in [...] and walking dead live people

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 6:39 PM

Christianity: Jesus != Zombie

:/

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 6:57 PM

absence of variation, indeed nothingness [..] /on the casual surface appealing but having no richness or substance whatsoever, and in its own way totalitarian [...] /at its heart it’s about no variation, no surprise that people who love it treat any deviation from it as heresy.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 6:44 PM

Shot in the dark.

Is there a book? A body of work? It’s fascinating. No sarcasm. I want to think about no variation :: nothingness, but it’s new, and I’m groping.

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 7:03 PM

OK, the Beatles clearly speak to you. Some of their stuff speaks to me too, but not much.

I just don’t like those “best ____player” polls–critics or otherwise. All it tells me is that the average reader of Rolling Stone thinks someone is a good drummer, etc. Obviously, if you play your instrument well enough to have a following, you’re pretty damn good. But just because a poll says someone is the greatest, does not make that person the greatest. Were the Beatles good players? Sure, but so were hundreds of others from that era.

guitarman67 on January 2, 2012 at 7:05 PM

Well, atheism hasn’t proven itself either; it’s a belief in no God at all.

This is often repeated nonsense. There is no belief involved. Maybe there’s a god and maybe there isn’t. Maybe there are thousands of gods and maybe there aren’t. There is no proof of any of them so I simply do not accept the proposition. If I see the dead walking the earth I am willing to reconsider.

To claim atheism is a religion is to also claim that your religion is not believing in Zeus if you don’t believe in Zeus, and if you don’t believe in Apollo your religion is not believing in Apollo, etc. If we are going to classify not believing in supernatural stock characters as religion then we’re all poly-atheists.

Religion is a fairy tale for people too psychologically weak to accept their mortality.

Dan_Yul on January 2, 2012 at 7:05 PM

It sure is possible to ruin an OK song when you change a lyric in order to fellate the scared and delusional feeding their pathological need to have an imaginary super powered sky friend daddy. The religious are insane.

Your Mamma loves me on January 2, 2012 at 1:58 PM

English, MF, do you speak it?

Nah. Cee-Lo just showed what an amazing businessman he is by getting about $3 million worth of publicity for nothing. I bet he was even paid to sing the song.

Go capitalism!

kim roy on January 2, 2012 at 7:07 PM

Religion is a fairy tale for people too psychologically weak to accept their mortality.

Dan_Yul on January 2, 2012 at 7:05 PM

Thank you for sharing your faith with us. Just too darn hard to not let the anger through and prove to us this really is a faith for you, isn’t it?

I haven’t met an Atheist yet on these forums who isn’t practicing a religion. When you can stop your crusade against religion and think of God like the rest of us think of unicorns you might have a point. But until then you are a faithful preacher of your religion.

NotCoach on January 2, 2012 at 7:10 PM

This is often repeated nonsense. There is no belief involved. Maybe there’s a god and maybe there isn’t. Maybe there are thousands of gods and maybe there aren’t. There is no proof of any of them so I simply do not accept the proposition. If I see the dead walking the earth I am willing to reconsider.

To claim atheism is a religion is to also claim that your religion is not believing in Zeus if you don’t believe in Zeus, and if you don’t believe in Apollo your religion is not believing in Apollo, etc. If we are going to classify not believing in supernatural stock characters as religion then we’re all poly-atheists.

Religion is a fairy tale for people too psychologically weak to accept their mortality.

Dan_Yul on January 2, 2012 at 7:05 PM

That last sentence really gives the game away for you. It sounds to me like you’re the one with the hangup.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 7:15 PM

That’s a horrible thing to say about someone. I think you’re courageous from behind the keyboard. I doubt you’d make such vicious, insulting remarks in person or without the cloak of anonymity.

You’re pathetic.

Capitalist Hog on January 2, 2012 at 3:58 PM
Your life sounds absurd and just a little boring.

Thanks for your input. You and libtardordie occupy opposite ends of stupid. You’ll meet soon.

Capitalist Hog on January 2, 2012 at 4:11 PM

Speaking of hiding behind a keyboard and a cloak of anonymity.

You might consider cleaning up your own act, hog, before you castigate others.

Solaratov on January 2, 2012 at 7:19 PM

That last sentence really gives the game away for you. It sounds to me like you’re the one with the hangup.

That last sentence really gives the game away for why religious folks are so desperate to accept utter nonsense as the truth.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 7:19 PM

To claim atheism is a religion is to also claim that your religion is not believing in Zeus if you don’t believe in Zeus, and if you don’t believe in Apollo your religion is not believing in Apollo, etc. If we are going to classify not believing in supernatural stock characters as religion then we’re all poly-atheists.

You make a great point. Instead of refuting your strong argumenent, they find it more convenient to just attack you personally. Hmmm…wonder why?

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 7:23 PM

I’m an agnostic, and how I see it is that religion and atheism are actually based on the same premise: that a human creature can be sure of knowing how the universe is. The religious cite their scriptures, the atheist talks of reason and proof, but both are certain of their ability to be certain. Whereas I tend to think, as the quote goes, the only thing we know is that we don’t know.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 7:23 PM

That last sentence really gives the game away for you. It sounds to me like you’re the one with the hangup.

That last sentence really gives the game away for why religious folks are so desperate to accept utter nonsense as the truth.

mazer9 on January 2, 2012 at 7:19 PM

Is that how they taught you to reason and argue in your undergraduate studies? What makes you think that I’m religious?

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 7:25 PM

I’m an agnostic, and how I see it is that religion and atheism are actually based on the same premise: that a human creature can be sure of knowing how the universe is. The religious cite their scriptures, the atheist talks of reason and proof, but both are certain of their ability to be certain. Whereas I tend to think, as the quote goes, the only thing we know is that we don’t know.

sistrum on January 2, 2012 at 7:23 PM

The difference is that the religious folks usually know when they are making a leap of faith, and these avowed atheists do not know it.

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 7:27 PM

ghostwriter on January 2, 2012 at 7:27 PM

Weird. The new atheists are claiming the absolute-truth ground. I never thought of it that way.

Axe on January 2, 2012 at 7:31 PM

Well, atheism hasn’t proven itself either; it’s a belief in no God at all.

This is often repeated nonsense. There is no belief involved. Maybe there’s a god and maybe there isn’t. Maybe there are thousands of gods and maybe there aren’t. There is no proof of any of them so I simply do not accept the proposition. If I see the dead walking the earth I am willing to reconsider.

Dan_Yul on January 2, 2012 at 7:05 PM

You have confused atheism for agnosticism, and you are an agnostic.

digitalhap on January 2, 2012 at 7:38 PM

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