Romney and the VAT

posted at 9:50 am on December 27, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

See what happens when we take a couple of days off for the holidays?  We missed this interview with Mitt Romney talking about tax policy with the Wall Street Journal, and which may create some mild headaches for the frontrunner in the next few days.  The wide-ranging interview touched on many issues as well as campaign themes and the “vision thing,” to use a phrase that hearkens back to the first Bush presidency.  Romney wants to push a theme of reform, and in that vein talked about his ideas for comprehensive tax reform, a subject that has the possibilities for wide bipartisan support — or for political disaster, depending on what kind of reform one proposes.  He tried to stick to broad, general principles, but the WSJ pinned him down on the idea of a consumption tax:

What about his reform principles? Mr. Romney talks only in general terms. “Moving to a consumption-based system is something which is very attractive to me philosophically, but I’ve not been able to sufficiently model it out to jump on board a consumption-based tax. A flat tax, a true flat tax is also attractive to me. What I like—I mean, I like the simplification of a flat tax. I also like removing the distortion in our tax code for certain classes of investment. And the advantage of a flat tax is getting rid of some of those distortions.”

Since Mr. Romney mentioned a consumption tax, would he rule out a value-added tax?

He says he doesn’t “like the idea” of layering a VAT onto the current income tax system. But he adds that, philosophically speaking, a VAT might work as a replacement for some part of the tax code, “particularly at the corporate level,” as Paul Ryan proposed several years ago. What he doesn’t do is rule a VAT out.

Amid such generalities, it’s hard not to conclude that the candidate is trying to avoid offering any details that might become a political target. And he all but admits as much. “I happen to also recognize,” he says, “that if you go out with a tax proposal which conforms to your philosophy but it hasn’t been thoroughly analyzed, vetted, put through models and calculated in detail, that you’re gonna get hit by the demagogues in the general election.”

That also seems to explain his refusal to propose cuts in individual tax rates, except for people who make less than $200,000, which not coincidentally is also Mr. Obama’s threshold for defining “the rich.”

The VAT is political dynamite, as Romney well knows, for a number of reasons.  Europe relies on both VATs and income taxes for individuals and corporations, which has fueled government expansion and allows for easy revenue increases by tax-hiking politicians — to which we will return in a moment.  Nancy Pelosi floated the idea two years ago of an additional VAT to fund ObamaCare, which had conservatives seeing red at the time and which no doubt helped paint the midterms red in 2010, in at least some small part.

On the other hand, a number of conservatives prefer the Fair Tax as a replacement for the income tax, and the Fair Tax is arguably a version of a VAT, at least in practice.  The difference between that and Pelosi’s proposal was that Pelosi did want it layered onto the existing tax system, because she wanted a lot more revenue to fuel big-government programs like ObamaCare.  Fair Tax proponents want to eliminate the personal income tax before imposing the consumption-based Fair Tax, which sounds very similar to what Romney proposes to do, only doing so on the corporate income tax instead of the personal income tax.

Jim Pethokoukis says that conservatives should keep an open mind, as such a switch would promote the kind of job-creating investment that the US is missing now:

Yet Romney is certainly correct that the U.S. tax system should reduce the current bias against investment. Many economists on the left and right would agree that America has consumed too much and invested too little in recent years. Many studies have suggested that replacing the income tax system with a consumption tax could boost economic growth over the long-run by 5 percent or more, increasing tax revenue by 1 percent of GDP via that increased growth — not by increasing the tax burden. Some economists here at AEI like the idea of the Bradford X tax, a graduated consumption tax that eliminates investment taxes.

You can have a value-added tax that is economically efficient, pro-growth but does not have the transparency issues that Norquist and other small-government advocates worry about.  Many flat taxers, for instance, like the 19 percent Hall-Rabushka flat tax, a plan which has served as the model for many flat tax proposals. As with the X tax, businesses under a Hall-Rabushka system would deduct cash wages from the cash flow on which they calculate the VAT.

Romney is right that Ryan has proposed replacing the current corporate income tax with a business consumption tax in his Ryan Roadmap. The plan says a BCT would “enhance the international competitiveness of U.S. businesses and put the economy on solid footing to meet the challenges of the 21st century.”

As long as a consumption tax is a) transparent and b) not just slapped on top of the current tax code, it is definitely worth considering as a critical way of boosingt U.S. growth.

Daniel Mitchell at Forbes says any VAT would be a disaster, and an entree to big-government financing no matter how it’s structured:

For those who are not familiar with a VAT, it is a version of a national sales tax, but imposed at every stage in the production process and embedded in the price of goods and services. Perhaps more important, it is despised by everyone who wants to limit the size of government. …

Simply stated, this is an awful tax. If it ever gets implemented in the United States, the battle will be over. America will descend to European-style stagnation, eventually leading to fiscal crisis.

Any politician that supports a VAT (or even hints at supporting a VAT) should not be allowed anywhere near the White House. That applies to Mitt Romney. And it should be the rule for Paul Ryan as well.

Mitchell offers this video from his Econ 101 series, first launched when Pelosi proposed the idea of adding a VAT:

However, this objection — as Mitchell states in the beginning of the video — is based on adding a VAT, not replacing an income tax with a VAT. Mitchell acknowledges that a VAT system “does less damage per dollar collected” than income taxes, and that replacing the income tax with a VAT would make those arguments “persuasive.”

Would it work?  Perhaps not, and be sure to watch the whole video for the shortcomings of VAT systems, but I’m not sure it’s as anathema as some people have treated this statement.  I’m open to ideas that aim at promoting capital investment and getting government out of the income stream if it can be done effectively and with stringent limitations on tinkering.


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This is so priceless.
And what will happen in the media?
Crickets.
Bcs they are so far up his a$$ they can’t smell anything but his $hit.

Badger40 on April 15, 2013 at 10:43 AM

Caption for all Obama photo’s in tax-related story’s:

Rhymes with “rich”

BobMbx on April 15, 2013 at 10:45 AM

Didn’t the WSJ also say he was coming after your retirement because if you ain’t Beyonce or JayZ you aren’t living next to the Obamas on Marta’s Vineyard come 2020.

Marcus on April 15, 2013 at 10:45 AM

Scarboro you say? Never heard of them.

traye on April 15, 2013 at 10:46 AM

Politico changed their title to add gop

Must have gotten a call from the WH

cmsinaz on April 15, 2013 at 10:47 AM

NIMBP-

Not In My Back Pocket

trubble on April 15, 2013 at 10:48 AM

Scarborough attacking POTUS from the Left?

mjbrooks3 on April 15, 2013 at 10:48 AM

Why doesn’t the Indonesian Warren Buffet pay his “fair share”?

antipc on April 15, 2013 at 10:51 AM

Joe and Mika will now refuse to get on their knees in front of Dog Eater until Friday, maybe even through the weekend, because they are really really angry about this.

Bishop on April 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM

I called Vice President Joe Biden a…well, several things.

An Obama supporter and generally good person sent me information on Mr. Biden’s recent tax and donation records.

Unless I am mistaken, he spent last year giving some stuff away to worthy causes and even a Catholic Church.

All politics aside, thanks, Joe.

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM

This was a calculated move by the White House, and most everyone is falling for it.

Now Obama can say “I only paid 18.4%, and that’s not right. Something must be done to close loopholes and special deductions for the rich and ensure that wealthy are obligated to pay their fair share.”

If Obama had paid 30% could he make that argument as effectively?

steebo77 on April 15, 2013 at 10:53 AM

The left couldn’t care less what this guy does as long as he continues to support the slimy left wing agendas.

rplat on April 15, 2013 at 10:53 AM

Scumball-in-Chief

petefrt on April 15, 2013 at 10:54 AM

Semi-closeted liberal and long-time obama propagandist/supporter, Joey Scarborough blasts obama for his 18.4% tax rate.

(giggles.)

Pork-Chop on April 15, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Just wondering what the donations $ to the vacationing brats on our taxes did mooch and barky make to their educational fund this year to lower his tax rate. Remember last year he did the same thing, total B.S.

D-fusit on April 15, 2013 at 10:56 AM

Wait! Wait!

How does he do it? I want to do the same!

Shy Guy on April 15, 2013 at 10:56 AM

I never understood why Republicans were not going after Democrats who demanded higher taxes on themselves in public and then turned around and made extensive use of deductions.

Seems the most obvious political attack to me.

Valkyriepundit on April 15, 2013 at 10:58 AM

The invidious and insidious Warren Buffet has been toxic to the system that made him rich and could help all Americans.

The only possible justification for the Dem’s soak the rich program is the lack of net worth of most Americans. We are already taxing income like crazy and it is easy to make take even more.

The problem is that the stock market and investment returns are what created real wealth in the last century. You would think that ole Warren would notice that.

And what do they do? Attack President Bush when he even attempted to move some our fellow American’s long term investments to a better vehicle than the “Social Security Trust Fund”.

I pray to see the day when every American has a stock or equity account for life.

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 11:02 AM

Hey, calm down, rednecks. Y’all act like he’s calling for leaving infants to die or somethin’ …

///

M240H on April 15, 2013 at 11:03 AM

Biden and his wife gave a bunch of junk to the Goodwill and claimed a 2k plus, deduction. lol

Blake on April 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM

I could care less what the frauds in the WH paid. What I really want to know is if they claimed their monthly vacations as income?

ORconservative on April 15, 2013 at 11:09 AM

The left couldn’t care less what this guy does as long as he continues to support the slimy left wing agendas.

rplat on April 15, 2013 at 10:53 AM

The same applied to Clinton. I wonder if there’s a pattern here.

/

Odysseus on April 15, 2013 at 11:09 AM

Who is the Louis XIV and Marie of today?

Flash! Working stiff millionaires and billionaires get hassle over jet use.

If you go private plane or jet for your vacation, you have the SEC, IRS and even the FAA messing with you!

I could give cites but start at CFO dot com.

I get chief financial officer and accounting firm emails and all they do is make me worse.

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 11:12 AM

Biden and his wife gave a bunch of junk to the Goodwill and claimed a 2k plus, deduction. lol

Blake on April 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM

Ever seen the Salvation Army’s spreadsheet of what donated items are approximately worth, you would need a semi to haul $2,000 worth of used household goods. I’m thinking the actual tax-deductible worth of the junk was about $100.

Bishop on April 15, 2013 at 11:14 AM

Biden and his wife gave a bunch of junk to the Goodwill and claimed a 2k plus, deduction. lol

Blake on April 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM

Really? Oh boy.

Well, baby steps, baby steps…

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 11:15 AM

If you watch the entire clip, Morning Slow essentially uses his 7-minute rant in the end as justification for the Buffet Rule. So ultimately this is not about sparing the small business owner from paying higher taxes. Scarborough doesn’t give a rat’s ass about that. What he wants is to punish people making 7 figures or more with a minimum 30% tax rate in the name of “fairness”.

Doughboy on April 15, 2013 at 11:16 AM

Do liberals actually believe that a teacher or cop making $50,000 pays any federal income tax?

gwelf on April 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM

Just like Warren Buffet wanting higher taxes that wouldn’t apply to him and would push people to more heavily invest using products he sells.

gwelf on April 15, 2013 at 11:19 AM

This was a calculated move by the White House, and most everyone is falling for it.
Now Obama can say “I only paid 18.4%, and that’s not right. Something must be done to close loopholes and special deductions for the rich and ensure that wealthy are obligated to pay their fair share.”
If Obama had paid 30% could he make that argument as effectively?
steebo77 on April 15, 2013 at 10:53 AM

Obama has already been saying this for a long time.

During the whole Warren Buffet pays a smaller tax rate than his secretary era of class warfare.

gwelf on April 15, 2013 at 11:23 AM

I called Vice President Joe Biden a…well, several things.

An Obama supporter and generally good person sent me information on Mr. Biden’s recent tax and donation records.

Unless I am mistaken, he spent last year giving some stuff away to worthy causes and even a Catholic Church.

All politics aside, thanks, Joe.

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 10:52 AM

Yeah, don’t be overly impressed; it only amounted to about 1% of his earnings, as I recall the conversation last week.

Midas on April 15, 2013 at 11:24 AM

I could care less what the frauds in the WH paid. What I really want to know is if they claimed their monthly vacations as income?

ORconservative on April 15, 2013 at 11:09 AM

Does this answer your question?

A reactionary guy I know ruined an evening for two Obama people with the article, if that helps. They had been on a long term rampage about rich people like Mitt and the GOP and jets.

Obama Owes The IRS $35 Million for His Jet

Source:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/richkarlgaard/2011/07/01/obama-owes-the-irs-35-million-for-his-jet/

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 11:25 AM

18.4%… this should surprise NOBODY…

Khun Joe on April 15, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Instead, Obama did exactly what Romney does, which is to take the most efficient tax posture allowed within the law, for which Obama and his allies savaged Romney less than a year ago.

Um, actually, Romney did not take advantage of all the deductions available to him. “The Republican opted to drive up his income tax rate by not claiming more than $1.75 million in deductions for charitable donations.”

iurockhead on April 15, 2013 at 11:28 AM

Let’s play the Obamapologist’s version of connect the dots:

“This guy…” = “You people…”

RAAAACIIIIISSST!

See how easy the game is?

Roc on April 15, 2013 at 11:29 AM

So for the tax obsessed right, losing this argument once already wasn’t enough?
Ha.
No comparison to Romney or the criticisms of.
He hasn’t schemed to have the vast majority of his income shielded from taxes.
Obama gave 25% to charity.
And though fair to say Romney is vigorous in that regard as well…in 2011 Obama again gave away 25% and Romney 10%.
But apples and organges.
Scarborough is just throwing a little bone to the right.
Maybe they’ll take an hour off from calling him a RINO.
Ok…may 5 mins.

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM

He pays less then his secretary

murrayjones on April 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM

People should calculate what there actual tax rate is. Divide income tax by income. You should be surprised at the rate. (Lower than you thought?) Do the same for your state income tax if you have that.

Now add social security and Medicare and state income tax and sales tax. (Higher than you thought?). Also when adding you should double the SS and Medicare taxes. You are paying them even if they don’t show up on your paycheck.

Dasher on April 15, 2013 at 11:32 AM

This guy’s leadership abilities could be replaced by a golf cart.

NoDonkey on April 15, 2013 at 11:33 AM

So for the tax obsessed right, losing this argument once already wasn’t enough?
Ha.
No comparison to Romney or the criticisms of.
He hasn’t schemed to have the vast majority of his income shielded from taxes.
Obama gave 25% to charity.
And though fair to say Romney is vigorous in that regard as well…in 2011 Obama again gave away 25% and Romney 10%.
But apples and organges.
Scarborough is just throwing a little bone to the right.
Maybe they’ll take an hour off from calling him a RINO.
Ok…may 5 mins.

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM

Obama 35% to charity — Ha ha – I wonder what leftist radical group that was.

Dasher on April 15, 2013 at 11:33 AM

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM

I’m not sure how you know this. According to the Senate Majority Leader, Romney hasn’t paid taxes for a decade.

BobMbx on April 15, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Two comments and I am grateful and gone.

1) Yes, I DID say FAA. Look it up. They worry about private use. I couldn’t believe it, either.

2) A bird told me that the gov’t has been after the top GOP people for two years on jets and other class extravaganzas. I don’t envy the GOP big guns and Chair a bit as I heard they were target numero uno.

Reince’s Pizza thing (look it up) drove them nuts — it was like he knew what they were doing.

If we’re lucky, maybe the pizza will serve to illuminate an important economic point for President Obama: instead of redistributing the slices, the best way to make everyone happy is to make the pie bigger. It’s as true for dinner as it is for economic growth and opportunity.”

Way to go, Reince.

IlikedAUH2O on April 15, 2013 at 11:37 AM

Obama 35% to charity — Ha ha – I wonder what leftist radical group that was.

Dasher on April 15, 2013 at 11:33 AM

Mostly went to those commies that run Fisher House –
which ‘Provides free or low cost lodging to veterans and military families receiving treatment at military medical centers.’

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:53 AM

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM

I’m not sure how you know this. According to the Senate Majority Leader, Romney hasn’t paid taxes for a decade.

BobMbx on April 15, 2013 at 11:35 AM

Do you believe everything Reid says?
Now, really.

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:54 AM

Mostly went to those commies that run Fisher House –
which ‘Provides free or low cost lodging to veterans and military families receiving treatment at military medical centers.’

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:53 AM

The least he could do after dithering for months about Afgahistan as many of those servicemembers were injured or killed because of his cowardice. You realize the only time the bastard showed up in Dover was as a photo-op?

But more to the point- Is 18.4% really his fair share? Seems to me the rat-eared devil was demanding far more from working Americans making far less. I guess those rules don’t apply to lazy stupid affirmative action quota fillers.

Happy Nomad on April 15, 2013 at 11:58 AM

So for the tax obsessed right, losing this argument once already wasn’t enough?
Ha.
No comparison to Romney or the criticisms of.
He hasn’t schemed to have the vast majority of his income shielded from taxes.
Obama gave 25% to charity.
And though fair to say Romney is vigorous in that regard as well…in 2011 Obama again gave away 25% and Romney 10%.
But apples and organges.
Scarborough is just throwing a little bone to the right.
Maybe they’ll take an hour off from calling him a RINO.
Ok…may 5 mins.

2011:
Romney 29%
Obama 21%

Wrong again, but that seems to be a pattern with you, but don’t let facts get in your way.
You’re just jealous because Scarborough has seat in Obama’s taint than you do.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81529.html

RovesChins on April 15, 2013 at 12:05 PM

steebo77 on April 15, 2013 at 10:53 AM

Here’s the defeat of your argument -

Fairness = what BHO does

BHO pays 18.5% effective tax rate.

Flat taxers have always said an fair tax is 18.5%.

Please tax us at 18.5%, just like BHO. We want to be fair too!!

gonnjos on April 15, 2013 at 12:14 PM

verbaluce on April 15, 2013 at 11:30 AM

Obama gives to charity only when the national media is watching, and when it really doesn’t hurt. Besides, gauging from the net worth of the Clintons post-presidency, his recent charitable inclinations are simply an investment for him. He’ll be worth $200 million by, say 2020. For an excellent chart on Obama and Biden since 2000, look here.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2013/04/obama-and-biden.html#comments

BuckeyeSam on April 15, 2013 at 12:19 PM

STFU, Joe! Where have you been the last five years? Idiot.

HiJack on April 15, 2013 at 12:19 PM

gonnjos on April 15, 2013 at 12:14 PM

note that his effective tax rate aligns perfectly with traditional spending to GDP (until these dems took over)

DanMan on April 15, 2013 at 12:41 PM

Limousine Liberal ?
Hell- he’s a COUNTRY CLUB MARXIST

and we know thats way worse.

Give morning Bloe at least a wink- he has some morsel of integrity after he and Hypocrite mika-poo sat there, day after day, shadding on Mitt for being richie Rich.

Wheres HAL …….

FlaMurph on April 15, 2013 at 12:42 PM

AYFKM? Is Joe Scarborough finally getting it? Where’s Mika? Puking in the back corner after receiving the bad news about BO’s tax bracket?

Joe should have brought up the Schumer Rule. A Democrat lowered Romney’s tax rate then attacked him for it.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20120123/BLOGS01/301239996

NoPain on April 15, 2013 at 12:53 PM

Biden and his wife gave a bunch of junk to the Goodwill and claimed a 2k plus, deduction. lol

Blake on April 15, 2013 at 11:04 AM

I’d love to see those receipts.

GWB on April 15, 2013 at 1:03 PM

So Joey FINALLY woke up? And we’re supposed to applaud him? More like kick him in the nuts and tell him he’s a couple of years late and more that a dollar short.

GarandFan on April 15, 2013 at 2:00 PM

Joe will go back to fawning over the Obama and his ilk in even numbered years. Especially in the months of Sep./Oct./Nov.

Besides … there are no undecided voters that watch his morning spew. It matters not.

Carnac on April 15, 2013 at 2:43 PM

Obama: “We need to raise taxes because folks like me and can more.” Well, you had your chance, pay up Bambie!

HellCat on April 15, 2013 at 2:55 PM

Buffet makes his money on long term investments not short term gains. If long term savings are penalized then they will disappear. Look at what happened to the interest rate on bank savings accounts. Basically the interest rate is zero and fees have soared through the roof. This why so many people don’t trust banks anymore !!

hamradio on April 16, 2013 at 4:00 AM

Welcome to Socialism, where ‘Pay YOUR fair share’ applies to everyone EXCEPT the Socialists at the top!

easyt65 on April 16, 2013 at 9:45 AM

2011:
Romney 29%
Obama 21%

RovesChins on April 15, 2013 at 12:05 PM

Bingo! Verby must think that Romney’s tithing to his church is the only charitable giving he does.

Sockpuppet Politic on April 16, 2013 at 12:48 PM