Mark Steyn: War on Christmas indicative of the “Western world at twilight”

posted at 4:10 pm on December 26, 2011 by Tina Korbe

It’s an interesting interpretation of a phenomenon that is often considered exasperating but not necessarily the most important battle to fight. Yes, political correctness anesthetizes the sense of the sacred — but can mere words possibly matter as much or more than unemployment, the high abortion rate, political scandals like Fast and Furious or Solyndra and the regulatory war on capitalism?

Mark Steyn essentially says yes — or, at the very least, that political correctness is part and parcel of the problems we face as a nation. The words we use reflect the attitudes we have, and those attitudes, in turn, are both the outgrowth and the molder of our reality. According to Steyn, objections to Christmas expressions indicate that the West, in some ways, exists in contradiction to itself. The Daily Caller reports:

Steyn went on to note that there is no crusade to generalize other religious holidays and that the West’s budding hatred of itself and its values was at the “heart” of the matter.

“There’s something very odd by the way, as I said about this stilted artificial avoidance of Christmas,” he said.

“We would[n't] have, you know, a day off on December 25 if it wasn’t Christmas. But somehow it has to be a generalized holiday. Nobody does this with Ramadan, for example. I notice when you look at the big Ramadan festivities at the White House that every president conducts now — nobody bothers to pretend that is a kind of general celebration. Nobody says ‘happy holiday’ instead of Ramadan. And I think there’s something sort of slightly — it’s not a small thing in that sense. It gets to the heart of the most disturbing feature of Western world at twilight, which is this kind of institutional self-loathing that’s at the heart of it.”

Then, too, precision of language prevents the obfuscation of truth. December 25 is Christmas, whether it’s acknowledged as such or not. What does it profit any of us to pretend otherwise — whether we join in the celebration or not?


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Well that’s easy to say when you aren’t the kid who’s been raped by a priest.

My point is humans often have beliefs based on what happens to them in life.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:35 AM

Yeah but what kind of father sacrifices his own Son?

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:17 AM

A devoted one. It’s always important to remember that having tested Abraham’s devotion, God did not let him go through with the sacrifice of Isaac. Jesus was willing to sacrifice himself for our sake. To this day we still revere those who sacrifice themselves on behalf of others. In the case of Jesus Christ, as they say, the world was worth dying for.

cicerone on December 27, 2011 at 2:36 AM

My hope is that God cuts us some slack if we have doubts…going to hell for a doubt doesn’t seem to fit the crime.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:37 AM

Well here’s another thing I wonder about a lot.

What Christians worship God or care about God if there was no promise of an afterlife?

I think you could say a loto f Christians really worship the idea of eternal life, not really God.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:38 AM

Yeah but in my mind, God could have saved the world without all the dramatic sacrificing of Jesus. He is God, afterall.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:39 AM

And at the same time, the child rapist can still get into heaven if he accepts Jesus as Savoir and truly repents?

See if I was God, if you raped anybody you wouldn’t get into heaven.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:28 AM

A Christian woman was abducted by a mass murderer and rapist of women. Instead of becoming scared, she witnessed the Gospel message to him. His reply was that he had done way too many wicked things to ever be forgiven. Upon considering his reply, she asked him if there was anyone in his life that he loved. He replied that he had a son that he loved. She then proceeded to ask him if he would be able to forgive his son if his son grew up to do all the same wicked things that he had done. He thought about it for a minute and then replied, ‘yes, I guess I could forgive him.’ She then said, “well, if you could forgive your son for his sins, how much more do you think God could forgive you your sins? He became a Christian and turned himself into the police and received the death penalty. He was able to die with a good testimony.

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 2:41 AM

Well I enjoyed talking about the reason for the season for a bit with you guys.

Hope I didn’t annoy you too much.

Merry Xmas and happy new year, i need to get my beauty sleep. Got to work on my physical therapy for my dislocated shoulder tomorrow.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:42 AM

Yeah but in my mind, God could have saved the world without all the dramatic sacrificing of Jesus. He is God, afterall.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:39 AM

No he most certainly could not have. God made a law and he must abide by it. Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

My hope is that God cuts us some slack if we have doubts…going to hell for a doubt doesn’t seem to fit the crime.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:37 AM

You underestimate the wickedness of unbelief and mistrust. Unbelief leads to every sin under the sun. Eve eating the fruit was an act of unbelief because she believed the Devil’s word over God’s word. If you think that trust is not that big a deal, then tell your spouse that you don’t trust them and treat them with suspicion and see how long your marriage lasts.

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 2:50 AM

Well here’s another thing I wonder about a lot.

What Christians worship God or care about God if there was no promise of an afterlife?

I think you could say a loto f Christians really worship the idea of eternal life, not really God.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:38 AM

That’s a little like asking “Would Christians worship God if he wasn’t, you know…God?” Would I drink water if wasn’t wet? It’s a mystery.

Yeah but in my mind, God could have saved the world without all the dramatic sacrificing of Jesus. He is God, afterall.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:39 AM

Again, a mystery. It’s precisely because he is God that we can’t know for sure why things happen. A small child rarely understands why his or her parents have certain requirements and certain rules that must be obeyed. In time they come to realize what it was all about.

cicerone on December 27, 2011 at 2:52 AM

Again, a mystery. It’s precisely because he is God that we can’t know for sure why things happen. A small child rarely understands why his or her parents have certain requirements and certain rules that must be obeyed. In time they come to realize what it was all about.

cicerone on December 27, 2011 at 2:52 AM

Its only a mystery if he doesn’t explain it to us. The Bible explains it all quite clear why Jesus had to die on the cross.

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 2:55 AM

Well I enjoyed talking about the reason for the season for a bit with you guys.

Hope I didn’t annoy you too much.

Merry Xmas and happy new year, i need to get my beauty sleep. Got to work on my physical therapy for my dislocated shoulder tomorrow.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:42 AM

It’s all good. Merry Christmas to you too! And good luck with the shoulder.

cicerone on December 27, 2011 at 2:56 AM

Its only a mystery if he doesn’t explain it to us. The Bible explains it all quite clear why Jesus had to die on the cross.

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 2:55 AM

I don’t disagree. But the skeptic asks “Why, if God is all powerful, did he decide that it had to be this way.” We don’t believe that there is a higher power than God himself, which means that things happen the way HE sees fit for them to happen. That’s good enough for you and me because we have faith. But the skeptic continually asks about God’s motivation. For instance, “Why Ten Commandments, rather than nine or eleven?”

cicerone on December 27, 2011 at 3:06 AM

People are already taking their decorations down, but Christmas doesn’t end for 10 more days. That’s what upsets me.

adamcr on December 27, 2011 at 3:07 AM

Too early in the morning for further theological discussion! lol

cicerone on December 27, 2011 at 3:08 AM

Fair enough, nighty night!

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 3:18 AM

Our own affluence has rendered us inane and effete.

We have become tolerant and this will not do.

But, the inexorable feet of the Malthusian cycle plod along.

Can we stop it? Could Rome?

esnap on December 27, 2011 at 3:36 AM

You underestimate the wickedness of unbelief and mistrust. Unbelief leads to every sin under the sun. Eve eating the fruit was an act of unbelief because she believed the Devil’s word over God’s word.

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 2:50 AM

I’ll bet that you wonder why decent people despise you?

MJBrutus on December 27, 2011 at 5:53 AM

The Bible is ridiculous. At least christians kept a great Pagan holiday around for us to enjoy.

Random on December 27, 2011 at 6:24 AM

War on Christmas indicative of the “Western world at twilight”

first error is to equate Western world with christianity. certain adopters of western values and culture like japan and south korea can be “western” without christianity.

second error is ignoring the fact is that secularism gave a huge boost to the western world. when knowledge and politics become Independence from christianity there where many advances that gave power to the western world. i will concede that some secular political systems where failures but almost all secular systems are better when compared to the tyrannical monarchies of the pre enlighment times.

concluding, war on christmas does not indicate nothing but the persecution complex of certain christians in america.

regarding the ramadan reference, i disagree. most atheists i know dislike islam way more than christianity. the issue is that in a country like america that is so proud of its religious freedom, its hard to implement secular laws that restrict islamic practices without also restricting other religious practices. what to do?

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 6:57 AM

when knowledge and politics become Independence from christianity there where many advances that gave power to the western world. i will concede that some secular political systems where failures but almost all secular systems are better when compared to the tyrannical monarchies of the pre enlighment times.

The problem with that is knowledge and politics have never become “independent” from Christianity. They have always been dependent on it to hold back the barbarians and barbarian thinking.

Where Christianity has weakened, socialism has risen or Islam has invaded. The masses are going to latch onto something being pitched by demagogues.

We are seeing this experiment with deChristianized secularism being played out in Europe. Anyone who cannot see it is already failing badly just is not looking.

As to South Korea and Japan, neither country would look anything like they do now without America shielding them. So they have been dependent on Christianity, too.

As Christianity continues to wane in America, do you seriously doubt the American shield in Asia will fall?

fadetogray on December 27, 2011 at 7:38 AM

The idea that there is a war on Christmas in this country is silly.

You cannot swing a dead cat over your head from the middle of October to now without hitting some public embrace of Christmas

This is people like O’Reilly whining and crying and trying to portray themselves as victims….

Give me break… This country is over 75% Christian and saying that Christians are victims in a country they overwhelmingly rule is a publicity campaign created by the now overtly left wing Fox News…they want to be victims too..

georgealbert on December 27, 2011 at 7:47 AM

Twilight? Pah! Seems darker than that!

Surrender and appeasement to the Cultists of Mohammad on all fronts…convert, die, or be enslaved…that is the only choices you have left if you refuse to fight these crazies!

insidiator on December 27, 2011 at 7:48 AM

The problem with that is knowledge and politics have never become “independent” from Christianity. They have always been dependent on it to hold back the barbarians and barbarian thinking.

what? greeks and romans where advanced and civilized without any christian help. humanity can have a moral compass without christianity. also christian where many time resposible for barbarian behavior against other religions and christian sects and anything that threatened the power.

Where Christianity has weakened, socialism has risen or Islam has invaded. The masses are going to latch onto something being pitched by demagogues.

-assuming that christianity cannot support socialist systems.
-assuming that christianity can stop the invasion of islam. islam conquered 7th century christian lands and the crusades had only a moderate success. secular armies in the end conquered and colonized all of the islamic world.
-assuming that christians where not demagogues when historically they are as guilty of demagogy as well.

We are seeing this experiment with deChristianized secularism being played out in Europe. Anyone who cannot see it is already failing badly just is not looking.

you make it sound like they are somalia or something. they have a good life and they are doubling down on secular solutions to solve their issue. for example, banning the hijab. do this in the US…

As to South Korea and Japan, neither country would look anything like they do now without America shielding them. So they have been dependent on Christianity, too.

argh, your vision is that christian america is out in the world defending peace. ignoring that the army is secular and the foreign policy of this country is mostly driven for secular reasons. just silly.

As Christianity continues to wane in America, do you seriously doubt the American shield in Asia will fall?

fadetogray on December 27, 2011 at 7:38 AM

yes! if we do end up leaving our bases in asia its because we cannot afford them.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:00 AM

Give me break… This country is over 75% Christian and saying that Christians are victims in a country they overwhelmingly rule is a publicity campaign created by the now overtly left wing Fox News…they want to be victims too..

georgealbert on December 27, 2011 at 7:47 AM

true, christians have persecution complex! lol!

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:06 AM

You underestimate the wickedness of unbelief and mistrust. Unbelief leads to every sin under the sun. Eve eating the fruit was an act of unbelief because she believed the Devil’s word over God’s word. If you think that trust is not that big a deal, then tell your spouse that you don’t trust them and treat them with suspicion and see how long your marriage lasts.

NeverLiberal on December 27, 2011 at 2:50 AM

i would say otherwise, unbelief and mistrust of leaders and politicians is beneficial.
unbelief and mistrust cause men to seek alternative explanations of the natural world that created a hugely beneficial modern science.
i would say that its immoral to tell other people trust and believe. in this world they will likely be abused.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:17 AM

Twilight? Pah! Seems darker than that!

Surrender and appeasement to the Cultists of Mohammad on all fronts…convert, die, or be enslaved…that is the only choices you have left if you refuse to fight these crazies!

insidiator on December 27, 2011 at 7:48 AM

do you have any doubt that atheists will not fight these people? atheists are well aware of the danger of extremist islam and they will react.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:19 AM

Twilight? Pah! Seems darker than that!

Surrender and appeasement to the Cultists of Mohammad on all fronts…convert, die, or be enslaved…that is the only choices you have left if you refuse to fight these crazies!

insidiator on December 27, 2011 at 7:48 AM
do you have any doubt that atheists will not fight these people? atheists are well aware of the danger of extremist islam and they will react.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:19 AM

I do have my doubts. Apparently they enjoy getting every public manger scene or cross removed, all traces of God expunged from currency and coin…if they let Christians be and fight the real enemy I would think different. As it is they are aiding the Mohammadan’s. Perhaps if Christians started blowing up people they too would gain respect.

insidiator on December 27, 2011 at 8:39 AM

I do have my doubts. Apparently they enjoy getting every public manger scene or cross removed, all traces of God expunged from currency and coin…

insidiator on December 27, 2011 at 8:39 AM

It seems we’re getting an even trade-off. As Christianity is diminished in America and the west in general … Islam is moving in.

It was Christianity that finally pushed back the Islamic hordes from Europe. Without them the world would look completely different.

I would think a truce is in order. Since an obvious goal of Islam and the left is the destruction of Christianity and Judaism, people who believe in freedom should join together regardless of belief or disbelief and fight the common enemy, as the left and Islam have joined together to fight against it.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 9:18 AM

I said “Merry Christmas” to everyone this year whenever I was out. I got “Merry Christmas” back from all of them except one who was clearly uncomfortable with either me saying it or her needing to reply in kind. She was young and I’d guess the brainwashing had taken hold. This is only a problem if we continue to sit back and let the anti-western everything morons march along unimpeded.

roy_batty on December 27, 2011 at 10:05 AM

Oh, puhleeze…this bogus “war on Christmas” nonsense is something cooked up in the fevered minds of those who have some sick, insatiable need to be validated, praised, lauded, and acknowledged every five seconds of every frickin’ day.

If someone says “Happy Holidays” to me, I’m happy to accept the sentiment with the positive, warm wishes in which it was given. I don’t assume the person is flinging it at me as some kind of subversive code for “killallchristiansnow”.

What is WRONG with people?

The decline of this society has more to do with these fringe nutters shrieking and screaming and having tantrums because OHMYGODTHEWORLDISNOTBOWINGTOMEANDMYRELIGIONNOWNOWNOW!!!

The looney “war on Christmas” people are just the religious right version of the Occupy movement. It’s all just narcissistic, stupid, selfish, bratty, immature people having tantrums because they’re not getting the personal attention they think they deserve.

Christmas was never that big a deal. Never. Not until the Gimbel family made it a big deal, and they were Jewish. It used to be a relatively low-key, small, FAMILY holiday. It wasn’t about who had the biggest stupid suburban light display, or who got the most toys, or the latest computer game or Nike sneakers. Most importantly, it wasn’t a political statement.

Christians themselves chose to politicize Christmas. THEY are the ones who took the “Christ” out of Christmas and made it about politics and power and us v. them and having to be bloody RIGHT all the time.

Ugh. I’m as sick of the war on Christmas people as I am of “Tea Party” people and “Occupy” people and crazy lunatic religious bloggers and fringe political bloggers and all the other stupid, do-nothing, ne’er-do-well tantrtum-throwers.

Mark my words — this is the kind of crap that drives the vast majority of normal, everyday Americans so crazy, I guarantee you they will vote Obama in for another four years just to shut y’all up. Mark my words.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 10:15 AM

The first ammendment says that

“Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereoof …..”

The 14th ammendment (I believe not 100%) essentially made the first 10 ammendments applicable to the states.

Yet somehow our society has replaced this with the concept of “separation of church and state” and implied this means we can prohibit people from expressing their religion which is the same thing as prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

The argument that someone might be offended by a religious expression so it can’t appear on publicly funded grounds is wrong for the following reason.

1) Religious people pay taxes to use the “grounds” just as much as the non religious.
2) The government claiming “public” grounds is done by force and one can effectively ban religion by stating all grounds are “public”. In california this control is being influenced by banning smoking on private property.
3) The “ban” is not on religious expression but targeted to “christian” expression. No one tells muslims they cannot bow to Mecca in a school and atheism is as much a religious belief as any other religion so you establish athesim and secularism by banning religious expressions. It is not applied fairly anyways.

Funny but secular governments that banned christianity and speak the same message as the modern leftist today… Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, Musolini… All Socialists who beleived in an all powerfuil state.

Individualist on December 27, 2011 at 10:25 AM

Mark my words — this is the kind of crap that drives the vast majority of normal, everyday Americans so crazy, I guarantee you they will vote Obama in for another four years just to shut y’all up. Mark my words.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 10:15 AM

I think the kind of crap people are sick of is groups like the Freedom from Religion Foundation searching the country for nativity scenes and threatening to sue unless they’re removed … like in Athens Texas.

That naturally incurs a response which you mistakenly perceive as “this bogus “war on Christmas” nonsense”.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 10:27 AM

Oh, puhleeze…this bogus “there is no war on Christmas” nonsense is something cooked up in the fevered minds of those who have some sick, insatiable need to be validated, praised, lauded, and acknowledged every five seconds of every frickin’ day.

If someone says “Merry Christmas” to me, I’m happy to accept the sentiment with the positive, warm wishes in which it was given. I don’t assume the person is flinging it at me as some kind of subversive code for “killallsecfularitsnow”.

What is WRONG with people?

The decline of this society has more to do with these fringe nutters shrieking and screaming and having tantrums because OHMYGODTHEWORLDISNOTBOWINGTOMEANDMYSecularismNOWNOWNOW!!!

The looney “there is no war on Christmas” people are just the secularist leftist version of the Tea Party movement. It’s all just narcissistic, stupid, selfish, bratty, immature people having tantrums because they’re not getting the personal attention they think they deserve.

Christmas was never that big a deal. Never. Not until the Gimbel family made it a big deal, and they were Jewish. It used to be a relatively low-key, small, FAMILY holiday. It wasn’t about who had the biggest stupid suburban light display, or who got the most toys, or the latest computer game or Nike sneakers. Most importantly, it wasn’t a political statement.

Seculasrists themselves chose to politicize Christmas. THEY are the ones who took the “Christ” out of Christmas and made it about politics and power and us v. them and having to be bloody LEFT all the time.

Ugh. I’m as sick of the there is no war on Christmas people as I am of “Occupy” people and “Tea Party” people and crazy lunatic secularist bloggers and fringe political bloggers and all the other stupid, do-nothing, ne’er-do-well tantrtum-throwers.

Mark my words — this is the kind of crap that drives the vast majority of normal, everyday Americans so crazy, I guarantee you they will vote Herman Cain in for the next four years just to shut y’all up. Mark my words.

Wow – - wonderful debating tactic. I think I cdan also alter the same eight words in this post to defend doing away with the three point shots in basketball as well… brilliantly versatile way to argue

Individualist on December 27, 2011 at 10:35 AM

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 10:27 AM

Exactly. It’s ALL tantrum throwing. All of it. Including the “they started it”, “no, THEY started it”, blahblahblah nonsense.

Grow up. Frankly, I HATE big ugly plastic nativity scenes, and I bet God thinks they’re as tacky as hell.

If Christians hadn’t fallen into the decidedly NON-Christian (in the truest sense of the term “Christian”) consumerist mentality, and stupid suburban keeping-up-with-the-Joneses mentality re whose tasteless Christmas display was the biggest, if they hadn’t made Christmas a two month long in-your-face DISPLAY, no one would care.

But, no, Christians themselves were happy to turn the holiday marking the birth of Christ (a holiday, btw, which isn’t theologically all that big a deal, yet one they make more of a deal out of than Easter) into this endless loop of music, displays, appalling greed and materialistic behavior and, now, political statements.

It’s all crap. And more people than you think are SICK of it, and they’re as sick of the so-called Christians stooping to this kind of crap behavior as they are the people who are pushing back in the more obnoxious sorts of ways.

I’m happy with fewer public, gaudy, tacky Christmas “displays” and more quiet ACTUAL manifestations of Christ.

Maybe if more Christians actually put their actions where their words are instead of insisting on towering plastic show pieces, the world might be a different place today. Right. Like that might happen.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 10:39 AM

lol omg articles on this make me convinced that no one reads history.

I mean I guess he could be saying that political correctness can make you do silly things, but conflating a commercial holiday, with any sort of religious understanding… Well does that mean the Puritans were anti Christian because they outlawed Christmas as a Pagan holiday?

Zekecorlain on December 27, 2011 at 10:41 AM

Great question at the end but all I hear are crickets from the left :-)

mel23059 on December 27, 2011 at 10:45 AM

Mark my words — this is the kind of crap that drives the vast majority of normal, everyday Americans so crazy, I guarantee you they will vote Obama in for another four years just to shut y’all up. Mark my words.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 10:15 AM

No doubt about it, if you make a decision as important as the vote on this flimsy reasoning, you are crazy.

itsspideyman on December 27, 2011 at 10:50 AM

Christians are like the neighbor who has always let their dog run loose in the neighborhood pooping on everyone else’s lawn. Now the neighbors want the dog to stay in its own yard where it belongs and the inconsiderate neighbor thinks everyone is out to get him.

You’ve got thousands of churches to display and teach your mythology. There are radio stations playing Christmas music all month and even longer. There are Christmas tree lots all over the place. Santa is everywhere this time of year. Wallow in it all you want, at your own expense, on your own property. Just stop demanding the rest of the country do so as well.

Dan_Yul on December 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM

A war on words is essentially a war on ideas, and it’s a thin line between a war on ideas and a war on the people who hold those ideas. The move to “de-Christianize the West” as laid out decades ago by the Marxist Gramsci is proceeding steadily, albeit slowly enough to not awake the slumbering sheeple. First you eliminate the words, then the ideas, then the people. By the time we reach the last stage of full-blown persecution, the general ho-hum public will have been thoroughly desensitized to it. Those “nuisance” Christians have brought it on themselves anyway.

infidel4life on December 27, 2011 at 11:17 AM

Dan_Yul on December 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM

Thanks for bolstering my point.

infidel4life on December 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM

Wallow in it all you want, at your own expense, on your own property. Just stop demanding the rest of the country do so as well.

Dan_Yul on December 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM

Don’t you have it backwards? You’re demanding the rest of the country submit to you.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM

A short primer on Cultural Marxism, for those who think there’s nothing behind the growing attacks of Christmas and religion in general.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 11:23 AM

Don’t you have it backwards? You’re demanding the rest of the country submit to you.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM

It’s the Christians banging on the door of the science classroom, not scientists banging on the door of the Sunday school.

Once again, you have thousands of churches and your own private property on which to display the symbols of your mythology. Are there any lawsuits to get churches to stop displaying nativity scenes on their own property? Are there any to stop you from celebrating in your own home?

Keep your damn dog in your own yard.

Dan_Yul on December 27, 2011 at 11:28 AM

do you have any doubt that atheists will not fight these people? atheists are well aware of the danger of extremist islam and they will react.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:19 AM

Winner, winner chicken dinner! Beware the atheist horde. We fight for our belief in nothing. For the horde!!!

DFCtomm on December 27, 2011 at 11:32 AM

Wallow in it all you want, at your own expense, on your own property. Just stop demanding the rest of the country do so as well.

Dan_Yul on December 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM

Don’t you have it backwards? You’re demanding the rest of the country submit to you.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 11:19 AM

No he doesn’t. As a Christian, I agree with him. The in-your-face Christmas displays, the showy, loud, non-stop frenzy that Christmas has become is not the kind of behavior Christ calls us to.

The ramped-up 24/7 “Christmas” season flourished along with the ramped-up consumerist, materialist post-war & boomer generation behavior.

By their fruits you will know them…and the fruits of the consumerization and politicization of Christmas by Christians has been what…?

Have we seen a rise in charitable behavior? Nope. An increase in Christians? Uh-uh.

Have we seen more division, more strife, more us v. them, more arguing, more fighting, more nastiness. You bet.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 11:36 AM

Keep your damn dog in your own yard.

Dan_Yul on December 27, 2011 at 11:28 AM

Like I said … you’re demanding the rest of the country submit to you.

You’re free to pursue a constitutional amendment removing “prohibiting the free exercise thereof” from the 1st Amendment. In it’s place you may add “Keep your damn dog in your own yard”.

Good luck

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 11:36 AM

Darwin, he’s not.

He’s asking you to exercise your right to observe your particular religious observations in your homes, your churches, and other private venues instead of insisting that you get to practice them ad nauseam in public venues. That you keep insisting that your Christianity is defined by your right to usurp public property for two months (or more) upon which to practice your personal religion only shows the world that the last thing on your mind this time of year is Christ, and the first is a pushing and shoving game over your interpretation of your rights. Because, of course, it’s all about you.

The problem with your brand of Christianity is that it’s all tied up in the material world, in your ego, in your politics, in getting your way in the here and now. You can call that Christianity, but none of that has anything to do with the life Christ calls you to.

Back when people still had manners and when they understood that certain things were meant to be personal and private, Christmas was never anything more than just that: the personal, private observance of a religious holiday. Now it’s anything but personal, private or relgious. And that’s not the atheists’ fault.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 11:58 AM

what? greeks and romans where advanced and civilized without any christian help.

No, they were not, except in relative terms. The rise of modern science came directly out of the Christian world. You appear to believe fervently that was some kind of coincidence.

-assuming that christianity cannot support socialist systems.

Unlike what we have seen from other religions, it can resist socialist systems when they try to dominate the minds Christianity wants to dominate.

-assuming that christianity can stop the invasion of islam. islam conquered 7th century christian lands and the crusades had only a moderate success.

It did a better job of resistance than anything else other than communism. My point was, pick your poison.

secular armies in the end conquered and colonized all of the islamic world.

‘Secular’ armies of Christian societies. You appear to be missing the point.

-assuming that christians where not demagogues when historically they are as guilty of demagogy as well.

I assumed no such thing. Quite the opposite. In fact, I was thinking I was going to get some blowback here from Christians complaining I was lumping Christianity in as just another kind of demagogy (even if more benign).

you make it sound like they are somalia or something. they have a good life and they are doubling down on secular solutions to solve their issue. for example, banning the hijab. do this in the US…

Oh, yeah, banning the hijab in French schools. That’ll really stop them. You are ignoring the demography completely.

argh, your vision is that christian america is out in the world defending peace. ignoring that the army is secular and the foreign policy of this country is mostly driven for secular reasons. just silly.

And you continue to completely ignore my point. The country’s secular armies were willingly supported by Christian dollars and manned by Christian men. Christianity can allow for that. Islam can not and will not allow for that kind of thing. Their armies are necessarily Islamic.

Yet Europe is choosing Islam. That is lunacy.

fadetogray on December 27, 2011 at 12:05 PM

do you have any doubt that atheists will not fight these people? atheists are well aware of the danger of extremist islam and they will react.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 8:19 AM

Winner, winner chicken dinner! Beware the atheist horde. We fight for our belief in nothing. For the horde!!!

DFCtomm on December 27, 2011 at 11:32 AM

what?
some Christians were just saying that atheist will not fight muslim extremists and if we say we will fight them, they we will be an hord?

let me put this in perspective for you, in some muslim schools, their children are being taught to hate our children(any children that is not muslim). this kind of stuff deeply disturbs me as a father and at least in america, this stuff should be forbidden. do you agree?

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 12:09 PM

The war for civilization goes on. The war on indulgences was won at least in Western Civilization by the Germans, but indulgences subversively in the form of tithes are promoted daily. Lies about an Evil God that will torture you eternally if you don’t pay must end. Everywhere. and mutilation of infants to mark them as members of the Tribe must end as well.

Observation on December 27, 2011 at 12:20 PM

No, they were not, except in relative terms. The rise of modern science came directly out of the Christian world. You appear to believe fervently that was some kind of coincidence.

so romans and greeks where barbarians too? for your information barbarian was the name given by greeks to any peoples around that were not as civilized as them.
The rise of modern science came directly out of the Christian world.
i would say it came out from the ashes of Christian totalitarianism, that seems more correct.

Unlike what we have seen from other religions, it can resist socialist systems when they try to dominate the minds Christianity wants to dominate.

you are dreaming, chriantian are know for their charity and concern for the poor. this is all good but it also supportive of socialist systems.

It did a better job of resistance than anything else other than communism. My point was, pick your poison.

between Cristian crusaders that burned witches and heretics or communists, i would pick communists.

‘Secular’ armies of Christian societies. You appear to be missing the point.

so napoleon army was a ‘secular’ army of a christian sociality? see here how egypt was conquered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_campaign_in_Egypt_and_Syria
if these guys where christian, they the french revolution was done by christians. lol!

Oh, yeah, banning the hijab in French schools. That’ll really stop them. You are ignoring the demography completely.

i would say forbid madrassas and forcing children to attend secular schools will for sure would work in diluting their religious culture.

And you continue to completely ignore my point. The country’s secular armies were willingly supported by Christian dollars and manned by Christian men. Christianity can allow for that. Islam can not and will not allow for that kind of thing. Their armies are necessarily Islamic.

not really. for example, turkish army is very secular. arab secularists like saddam and assad had christians in their armies. unfortunately they are tyrants.

Yet Europe is choosing Islam. That is lunacy.

no they aren’t. surveys indicate that most Europeans dislike islam.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 12:47 PM

The atheist or jew who sneers with outrage when they see a sign that says “merry christmas” is no worse than the christian who bemoans the “end of western civilization” when a gas station attendant wishes them “happy holidays.” The pathology is the same for each party: hyper-sensitivy and self-importance.

I’ll believe in santa before I believe in the self-centered fantasies of christians battling a mythical “war on christmas.” Until the police start crashing into your home, tearing down your christmas trees, and burning your crosses, forgive us non-believers for rolling our eyes in exhaustion at having to hear the exact same thing every december.

bocat on December 27, 2011 at 1:13 PM

“I’ll believe in santa before I believe in the self-centered fantasies of christians battling a mythical “war on christmas.”

Ha Ha Good one :: ))

Observation on December 27, 2011 at 1:24 PM

i would say it came out from the ashes of Christian totalitarianism, that seems more correct.

Seems more correct to you. It seems a bizarre misreading of history to me.

you are dreaming, chriantian are know for their charity and concern for the poor. this is all good but it also supportive of socialist systems.

Of course Christians are charitable. That does not mean they favor the government seizing your property to buy votes from others.

Socialism is not charitable. Most Christians can see that. Most atheists cannot.

between Cristian crusaders that burned witches and heretics or communists, i would pick communists.

Gee, there were bad Christians. So lets take the worst people who called themselves Christian and compare them to a generic communist.

That is a seriously phony argument. Yet the call is still close.

i would say forbid madrassas and forcing children to attend secular schools will for sure would work in diluting their religious culture.

Sure. If you do that on a sustained nationwide basis, and you thoroughly mix the Muslim population with the rest before the Muslim population is too large, and if you succeed in vigorously opposing any religious behavior in the schools, then that might actually work.

Good luck with getting that plan established throughout a Europe where you cannot even criticise Islam without being prepared for legal consequences.

not really. for example, turkish army is very secular. arab secularists like saddam and assad had christians in their armies. unfortunately they are tyrants.

Turkey’s secularism was an anomaly that grew out of its conflict with Russia and its perceived need to placate the West. That is rapidly coming to an end.

And, yes, tyrants can have armies that are not 100% Muslim. So? Islam loves its dhimmi’s.

no they aren’t. surveys indicate that most Europeans dislike islam.

They may dislike it, but they are most definitely choosing it.

fadetogray on December 27, 2011 at 1:27 PM

The war for civilization goes on. The war on indulgences was won at least in Western Civilization by the Germans, but indulgences subversively in the form of tithes are promoted daily. Lies about an Evil God that will torture you eternally if you don’t pay must end. Everywhere. and mutilation of infants to mark them as members of the Tribe must end as well.

Observation on December 27, 2011 at 12:20 PM

WTF?

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 2:23 PM

Darwin, he’s not.

He’s asking you to exercise your right to observe your particular religious observations in your homes, your churches, and other private venues instead of insisting that you get to practice them ad nauseam in public venues.

I’m sorry … there are no qualifiers in the 1st Amendment. What he’s seeking is a special right of freedom from religion. Religious people have as much right to a public venue that you do.

That you keep insisting that your Christianity is defined by your right to usurp public property for two months (or more) upon which to practice your personal religion only shows the world that the last thing on your mind this time of year is Christ, and the first is a pushing and shoving game over your interpretation of your rights. Because, of course, it’s all about you.

I never insisted anything. It’s odd however, that you want control of public property to determine who can use it and who can’t.

The problem with your brand of Christianity is that it’s all tied up in the material world, in your ego, in your politics, in getting your way in the here and now. You can call that Christianity, but none of that has anything to do with the life Christ calls you to.

My brand of Christianity? I’m not even sure what Christianity is supposed to be much less adhere to a certain “brand” of it.

Back when people still had manners and when they understood that certain things were meant to be personal and private, Christmas was never anything more than just that: the personal, private observance of a religious holiday. Now it’s anything but personal, private or relgious. And that’s not the atheists’ fault.

Carolina21 on December 27, 2011 at 11:58 AM

I don’t disagree that the meaning of Christmas has changed dramatically. However, that still doesn’t mean anyone should be forced into back alleys and closets. I’m sorry Christmas bothers you. Rap music and communists bother me … however, I don’t ask them to forego their 1st Amendment rights because I don’t like what they do or say.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 2:37 PM

Seems more correct to you. It seems a bizarre misreading of history to me.

its a distortion to think that modern science originated from christian theology in any way. by the contrary, for many centuries the church centralized all knowledge and censured all knowledge that was politically inconvenient for them.

Of course Christians are charitable. That does not mean they favor the government seizing your property to buy votes from others.

Socialism is not charitable. Most Christians can see that. Most atheists cannot.

lets see, historically, the church imposed, an obligatory 10% tax on all citizens and this tax would feed the church and support the church charities.
socialism?

Gee, there were bad Christians. So lets take the worst people who called themselves Christian and compare them to a generic communist.

That is a seriously phony argument. Yet the call is still close.

i picked the crusaders who supposedly fought muslims more than anybody but you cannot deny they were quite a violent and intolerant group. between average crusader and a average communist, especially for an atheist like me(and any person that dislikes medieval times), i would choose the communist. but hey, i am glad these are not the only choices.

Good luck with getting that plan established throughout a Europe where you cannot even criticise Islam without being prepared for legal consequences.

people in europe can criticize islam. even if some public figures are afraid, the internet is fearless. and the public opinion of islam is continuing its descent.

They may dislike it, but they are most definitely choosing it.

paradox much?

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM

people in europe can criticize islam.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 2:41 PM

Not really.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/04/15/us-france-bardot-muslims-idUSL1584799120080415

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/24/world/europe/24dutch.html?_r=1

If you do, expect to be charged with hate speech, or killed by Muslims.

darwin on December 27, 2011 at 3:20 PM

its a distortion to think that modern science originated from christian theology in any way.

In addition to the concepts of free will and tolerance so missing in Islam, there is this.

Roger Bacon and William of Ockham are just a couple of the highlights there. Were they persecuted or did they fear persecution by the Catholic Church? To a degree. Yet they still had enough leeway to change the world from inside it.

Christianity kept much more intolerant dogmas at bay. That is my one and only point in this discussion, and you keep missing it.

i picked the crusaders who supposedly fought muslims more than anybody but you cannot deny they were quite a violent and intolerant group.

They were engaged in a savage war with a savage enemy. War is Hell. Most people engaged in extended periods of violent life and death struggle tend to become quite violent and intolerant.

We dropped the Bomb on Japanese cities. It does not come any more savage and violent and intolerant than that, yet it was the right thing to do.

fadetogray on December 27, 2011 at 3:27 PM

if these guys where christian, they the french revolution was done by christians. lol!

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 12:47 PM

It is possible to be even an atheist and have the stamp of a religion placed firmly upon you. Ricky Gervais is the perfect example. When he closes his eyes and thinks of the religion that he so desperately hates visions of Christ and Christians fill his head. He doesn’t take the time to mock any other religion does he? You could say he’s a coward for not mocking Islam, but there are other peaceful religions that he could attack but he doesn’t. Ricky Gervais is an atheist but he is most definitely a Christian one.

DFCtomm on December 27, 2011 at 3:30 PM

It is possible to be even an atheist and have the stamp of a religion placed firmly upon you. Ricky Gervais is the perfect example. When he closes his eyes and thinks of the religion that he so desperately hates visions of Christ and Christians fill his head. He doesn’t take the time to mock any other religion does he? You could say he’s a coward for not mocking Islam, but there are other peaceful religions that he could attack but he doesn’t. Ricky Gervais is an atheist but he is most definitely a Christian one.

DFCtomm on December 27, 2011 at 3:30 PM

i wont deny that extremist are making “artists” and opinion makers afraid and its unacceptable. freedom of speech is also the freedom to criticize religion and even mock it. oh well, i will exercise that freedom soon in the draw mohammad day that is coming up soon!

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 3:45 PM

DFCtomm on December 27, 2011 at 3:30 PM

A common occurrence when people deconvert from a specific religion is for them to address the religion they left more specifically when generally speaking out against religion. Why? Because that’s what they’re most knowledgeable about to start off with.

Don’t fall prey to thinking that they just fight against the religion of their birth. They are also against other religions, but can’t speak as well to them (dealing with the find details) as they can the one they were inculcated in.

SauerKraut537 on December 27, 2011 at 3:49 PM

@nathor

When is the next DM Day again? I participated in the first two. These fundamentalist Islamic types need to have it figuratively shoved down their throats that they cannot get away with squelching free speech that speaks out against their religion.

SauerKraut537 on December 27, 2011 at 3:51 PM

@nathor

When is the next DM Day again? I participated in the first two. These fundamentalist Islamic types need to have it figuratively shoved down their throats that they cannot get away with squelching free speech that speaks out against their religion.

SauerKraut537 on December 27, 2011 at 3:51 PM

google is your friend!

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Everybody-Draw-Mohammed-Day-3-may-20-2012/122155544532988

:-)

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 3:57 PM

In addition to the concepts of free will and tolerance so missing in Islam, there is this.

Roger Bacon and William of Ockham are just a couple of the highlights there. Were they persecuted or did they fear persecution by the Catholic Church? To a degree. Yet they still had enough leeway to change the world from inside it.

Christianity kept much more intolerant dogmas at bay. That is my one and only point in this discussion, and you keep missing it.

i not so sure christians become tolerant or the lost the power to be intolerant.
for sure christians seem to adapt better to the existing secular society than muslims. no one denies it.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM

What Christians worship God or care about God if there was no promise of an afterlife?

I think you could say a loto f Christians really worship the idea of eternal life, not really God.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:38 AM

I’m sure a lot do. Plenty of non Christians likewise assume that’s the only worthwhile aspect of Christianity. Both groups are sadly mistaken.

Yeah but in my mind, God could have saved the world without all the dramatic sacrificing of Jesus. He is God, afterall.

Dr. Tesla on December 27, 2011 at 2:39 AM

And he likewise could have told Cain that fruit and veggies were a worthy sacrifice, but he didn’t. Blood was the requirement then, and it’s the requirement now. Back when animals were the sacrifice, families were called to take their very best animal, which often meant an animal the family might have been close to, one they would have trouble sacrificing.

But that’s the whole point. It must be a sacrifice. Nothing else can fix a broken world. And what else can the Almighty sacrifice but his own blood?

Yes, it’s horrible, and yes, it’s difficult to comprehend. But that’s a feature, not a bug.

Esthier on December 27, 2011 at 5:43 PM

i not so sure christians become tolerant or the lost the power to be intolerant.
for sure christians seem to adapt better to the existing secular society than muslims. no one denies it.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Bit of both. There’s no doubt Christians have stopped some of the nonsense that went on earlier…but I’d still get nervous if one denomination or the other started getting as much influence as, say, the Catholic Church used to have in Europe. Things can start to go south when (almost) ANY religion gets enough power, politically and socially.

MelonCollie on December 27, 2011 at 5:54 PM

I am an agnostic, but I don’t believe in pc oppression by anyone. Christmas is a national holiday, and we should be allowed to celebrate it like any other country celebrates its special days. Mark is right on the money about PCness being part of our decline.

greenLibertarian on December 27, 2011 at 11:54 PM

SauerKraut537 on December 27, 2011 at 3:51 PM

Whoa. I think I actually agree with you there.
That’s causing me pause; second guessing myself.
Ok, I think your right on that score.

Hopefully the Islamic extremists can’t track you down for that.

listens2glenn on December 28, 2011 at 2:51 AM

. . . . . for sure christians seem to adapt better to the existing secular society than muslims. no one denies it.

nathor on December 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Hello, Spanish Inquisition . . . . .

(yes, some sarcasm there)

listens2glenn on December 28, 2011 at 2:54 AM

MelonCollie on December 27, 2011 at 5:54 PM

Dang, I make a crack about the Spanish Inquisition only to find your post about it (not by name, though) entered at about the same time.

listens2glenn on December 28, 2011 at 2:58 AM

Yes, political correctness anesthetizes the sense of the sacred

Well, good. Anyone who thinks “sacredness” is an idea worth preserving should go to Saudi Arabia and experience it firsthand.

Mark Jaquith on December 28, 2011 at 1:55 PM

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