California atheists block out nativity scenes

posted at 10:30 am on December 24, 2011 by Jazz Shaw

I don’t like dredging up that whole “war on Christmas” thing, but (with apologies in advance to Allahpundit) this story kind of gets under my skin. In Santa Monica, California, there is apparently one particular stretch of road alongside a park which has traditionally been set aside for Christmas displays. The nativity scenes on display have been popular with residents and tourists. But in order to be fair to everyone, the city used a lottery to allocate space to groups wishing to put up Creche displays and related scenes. Now, a group of atheists are accused of swamping the lottery and taking over the lots.

This year, however, atheists have taken over most of the two-block stretch, nearly shutting out and angering a group of churches who contend the atheists have organized against the Christians and gamed a city lottery process allocating the holiday exhibit space.

In response, a leader of the atheist group says he’s just looking for evenhanded treatment to present his beliefs in a public space — and goes so far as to say that the city shouldn’t even be allowing any religious or even atheist expression in the park.

That’s why he and his group have put nothing on half of the park exhibit spaces that they’ve secured from the city this year.

The atheists are declaring the politically left-leaning seaside town of Santa Monica as their latest battleground in a national movement to assert their rights.

“I’m part of a growing movement in America of atheists standing up for their rights. It’s a very exciting time for us that we’re having more of an impact in our society,” said Damon Vix, the organizer of the atheist group.

Yes, you’re having a big “impact” on the local society, alright. You’re getting everyone angry at you and ruining their holiday season to no apparent purpose. In the interview, Mr. Vix makes it clear that he has no interest in seeing other people’s views being represented – he just doesn’t want the Christians to use it.

In the interest of fairness, I could see if competing groups wanted to use some of the lots for an alternative display. If somebody wants to put up a big menorah on one of the lots, I don’t think anyone is going to get too worked up over it. And for these atheists, if they had something in mind as an alternative message… even a Festivus pole and a wrestling mat for some feats of strength, I’d probably have to give them some support. But to lock off the land to leave it empty rather than allow a nativity scene? That’s not some fight for equality or freedom. That’s just being a Grinch.

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I read about this story before-I believe a part that was left out of this thread is that the atheists put up signs comparing belief in G_d to belief in the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy, or left the area unused. Maybe next year some bright individual or group can counteract that by showing examples of unexplained phenomena-such as a young adult written off for dead waiting for organ harvesting-awakens froma coma, with a simple message above the story or picture-saying SCIENCE DOESN’T HAVE ALL OF THE ANSWERS.

canditaylor68 on December 24, 2011 at 2:16 PM

Is it NOT public space? Do not ALL our tax paying dollars pay for the maintenance of that piece of space? Not all tax paying individuals are Christians. Not all believe. So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

99% of taxpayers like the nativity scenes on their land, 1% don’t.

What are you going to do?

Force the will of the 1% on the 99%?

Why?

Gelsomina on December 24, 2011 at 2:16 PM

Hello? Did you not read my post to hawkdriver?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:06 PM
I did. But after seeing your blatant double-speak exhibited above, and being that it was so easily and readily recognized by many, why should I put any creditability in ANYTHING you write?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:13 PM

The Foot Baths? Are they not paid for by the university that feel the need to fulfill the needs of muslims for PRAYER? Those funds come from other students, investments, and yes, public money, but mostly it comes from private funds.
Foot Baths cannot be compared to Nativity Scenes. Sorry, try again.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:17 PM

99% of taxpayers like the nativity scenes on their land, 1% don’t.

What are you going to do?

Force the will of the 1% on the 99%?

Why?

Gelsomina on December 24, 2011 at 2:16 PM

Yes, they wish to force their ideology and beliefs on others. It’s what totalitarians and communists do.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:18 PM

No, atheists believe in nothing. So, why should they have to look at a Nativity Scene on their public lands?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM

I don’t believe in Allah. WHY should I have to look at foot washing stations on public lands?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:10 PM

Always have to show your hate for the muslims.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM

Not believing in Allah equates to hating Muslims?!?

You are one seriously deluded individual. Seek help.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:18 PM

I think Christmas kicks holiday butt, but then I’m a non-practicing atheist.

Immolate on December 24, 2011 at 2:01 PM

Thread winner? ! !

Definitely one of the best quotes I’ve ever heard from a professed atheist.

: )

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 2:18 PM

Nathor did even full read what I wrote dumbass, just go to a country where Islam is dominate, and announce very loudly and proudly that you are a atheist, and just see how long you last before you get beaten and arrested by their morality police, and yes, they do have them. Nathor, do think you big and bad for attempting to silence Jews and Christians, who will respond to you by praying for you and your family. Go to a Islam dominated country and try to pull the same crap you attempt here, and you are likely to end up losing you head, if you don’t get hung, or stoned to death first. As for my faith it is stronger than ever thank you. Militant atheist like you Nathor make me laugh, you whine more than my daughter does by a long shot, what Nathor don’t you have anything productive to do in life, but to try and make people miserable like yourself??? I enjoy life and what it has to offer, again Marry CHRISTmas to one and all.

Beastdogs on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

i already worked in islamic countries and said in a political way that not only i was atheist but i also did not like their religion. because i also worked in israel, muslims sometimes questioned me about israel and palestinians, to which i replied them “i think the root cause of the conflict is religious. i think both certain israelis and Palestinians are extremists and full of religious hate of each other”.

i am well aware that screaming certain stuff in the street of certain islamic countries can be deadly. more or less like 300 years ago in europe. they probably need a few more sunni-shia senseless massacres to take the wisdom of secularism at heart.

and to conclude, i think islam is way worse that christianity but i do not vote in a muslim country do i?

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 2:18 PM

I didn’t know atheists had symbols. Wouldn’t that imply a religion? Anyway, the mere fact that nothing is there is symbolic of atheism. They’re using public property to profess their belief in nothing. I find that highly offensive … like it’s forcing me to support atheism against my will.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:00 PM

I believe that many atheists take the common depiction of the atom as their symbol.

As such, I hereby call for the removal of such symbols, or any variations thereof, from any public building, website or land mass. I believe that militant Atheists throught the country will support me in this. Anythign else would be hypocracy :).

29Victor on December 24, 2011 at 2:19 PM

BTW, being a saved Christian and all, tell me how you feel about the Great Commission (Matthew 28: 18-20) and how it squares with your live and let live brand of Christianity.

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

Really, Bug. I would like to know why you are ignoring the last words spoken by your Savior.

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM

Foot Baths cannot be compared to Nativity Scenes.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:17 PM

You got that right! One conveys the mystery of God becoming man, living among us, and dying for our salvation. The other is for, well, washing feet.

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM

Empty? That’s the perfect display of atheism.

NTropy on December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM

Always have to show your hate for the muslims.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM
Why is that hate? They use public money, and public property to construct footbaths used in religious ceremonies. The same logic you apply to nativity scenes applies to that.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:15 PM

Most of the money comes from private funds. And, the foot baths are hidden, not on the side of a road.
No comparison.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM

The Foot Baths? Are they not paid for by the university that feel the need to fulfill the needs of muslims for PRAYER? Those funds come from other students, investments, and yes, public money, but mostly it comes from private funds.
Foot Baths cannot be compared to Nativity Scenes. Sorry, try again.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:17 PM

Public or property CANNOT be used. Here you are screaming about a nativity scene on public property yet couldn’t care less if it’s Islam.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:21 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM
Not believing in Allah equates to hating Muslims?!?

You are one seriously deluded individual. Seek help.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:18 PM

No, but always using the muslims in your arguments is hateful.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:22 PM

Always have to show your hate for the muslims.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM

Why is that hate? They use public money, and public property to construct footbaths used in religious ceremonies. The same logic you apply to nativity scenes applies to that.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:15 PM

Your logical inconsistency has been laid bare for the world to see. What do you do next?

1. Admit your defeat on this issue with grace and aplomb, then treat your new conquering friend to a night of dinner and dancing.
2. Weep softly into your woobie.
3. Accuse your accuser of hatred.
4. Hit your accuser with a frying pan, then run for the hills!

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 2:23 PM

I cannot speak for the moderators. I have no problem wiht posting.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM

Last night someone asked everyone “Who has trouble with boxing a quote?”
Maybe he/she/it should have asked “Who has trouble wiht spelling! (constantly)

KOOLAID2 on December 24, 2011 at 2:23 PM

No, but always using the muslims in your arguments is hateful.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:22 PM

Sorry for the double post, but you can’t be serious.

Hey guys, we can’t talk about stuff anymore!

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 2:24 PM

I AM SO SICK OF THIS CRAP!!!! and yes i am yelling! If you do not want to believe in anything fine! Things have changed so much where the minority have all the rights! I remember when i was in grade school and we would start each day with prayer and we got gideon bibles in 6th grade, But they did away with that and look how well our schools are doing now!!!!!

lisa fox on December 24, 2011 at 2:25 PM

First

It’s been well established by courts that displays of personal belief can be established on public property, so long as it goes through proper and reasonable channels.

Second

So long as the display does not violate local public decency laws, there is no reasonable limit to what that display could be. It could be a holiday display at least so long as it isn’t overtly trying to convert anyone, or it can be a protest display such as a picket-line.

Third

Separation of church and state effectively prevents the government from establishing any favored standard of belief, therefore displays of any belief must be given equal access.

Fourth

Alternatively, because of separation of church and state, state cannot favor secular belief over non-secular belief. Simply put, the protection works both ways and protects non-secularism from secularism.

Fifth and Finally

Because secularism and non-secularism are both protected, nobody has a right not to be exposed to non-secularism. To say you do have a right not to be exposed to non-secularism, is the same thing as saying you have a right not to be exposed to secularism. It puts you into a similar ideological footing as Islamic terrorists claiming the only proper government is an Islamic one.

All that said, “technically,” these atheist groups broke no laws and did nothing wrong. That does not however mean they were right. They exercised their rights in a way that was directly antagonistic to the sensibilities of a much larger group. Even many who are non-secular still appreciate nativity scenes after all, and Muslims believe in Jesus, and therefore do not typically object to nativity scenes, even if they do not actually believe he was the son of God.

In short, a small group just went out of its way to insult several MUCH larger groups. Excellent way to make friends there Atheists of Santa Monica!!

Long term though, it probably doesn’t matter. Local officials will likely simply alter the conditions of the lottery to prevent such gaming next year. Not that this is going to sooth anybodies feelings in the here and now.

WolvenOne on December 24, 2011 at 2:25 PM

Most of the money comes from private funds. And, the foot baths are hidden, not on the side of a road.
No comparison.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM

Who cares where most of it comes from? They use public money. You’re just another typical liberal Muslim apologist.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:25 PM

I cannot speak for the moderators. I have no problem wiht posting.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM
Last night someone asked everyone “Who has trouble with boxing a quote?”
Maybe he/she/it should have asked “Who has trouble wiht spelling! (constantly)

KOOLAID2 on December 24, 2011 at 2:23 PM

Looks like you finally got to the elementary school. Good for you.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:27 PM

To all who celebrate at this time of year, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah and Festival of Lights.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 2:14 PM

i agree with what you said, but tell me at least if you think or not perry comercial was too much or not?

i make my atheist zingers but the fact i am in house with my Christian parents and my childreen are all happy with the presents. i love this season too!

happy Natalis solis invictus for you too! :-)

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 2:28 PM

To all who celebrate at this time of year, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah and Festival of Lights.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 2:14 PM

i agree with what you said, but tell me at least if you think or not perry comercial was too much or not?

i make my atheist zingers but the fact i am in house with my Christian parents and my childreen are all happy with the presents. i love this season too!

happy Natalis solis invictus for you too! :-)

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 2:28 PM

Most of the money comes from private funds. And, the foot baths are hidden, not on the side of a road.
No comparison.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:20 PM
Who cares where most of it comes from? They use public money. You’re just another typical liberal Muslim apologist.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:25 PM

If you keep moving the goal line, you might actually win the argument. Doubt it, but keep running!
The Foot Bath is not by the street. It is in a place where a muslim can wash their feet, as is custom.
Don’t universities also have chapels? Uh huh.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM

“I’m part of a growing movement in America of atheists standing up for their rights. It’s a very exciting time for us that we’re having more of an impact in our society,” said Damon Vix, the organizer of the atheist group.

That would be, “the right to prevent those stupid Christians from ever practicing their faith in public.” It’s an emanation from the penumbra of the Good and Welfare Clause.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 2:33 PM

As an atheist myself, allow me to say that I personally am not offended when I see nativity scenes, I am not offended when someone tells me Merry Christmas, I am not offended when I see wooden crosses on the side of the road, and I am not offended when I hear songs that make references to Christianity.

I personally believe that myself, and all atheists for that matter, shouldn’t be worrying about such trivial things. We have a lot more important things to worry about than a church putting up a nativity scene on a piece of land.

Instead of wasting our time trying to fight against this nonsense, why don’t we focus all of our energy on battling issues that actually matter? We should fight against people trying to get creationism/intelligent design taught in public schools, people trying to ban/prevent gay rights, people trying to impose their religious values onto the entire country with legislation, etc.

theoddmanout on December 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Nobody in the U.S. has a right to be “free” from the sights and sounds of religion (that’s ALL of them) out in the general public or street realm.

But that doesn’t mean all devout religious persons get to practice every aspect of their religion in the general public with impugnity, either.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 2:36 PM

The atheists are declaring the politically left-leaning seaside town of Santa Monica as their latest battleground in a national movement to assert their rights.

Well, the atheists can just go to he11.

Long haired country boy on December 24, 2011 at 2:37 PM

In the ballot box for Cooest Christmas Commercial Ever!

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:38 PM

In the ballot box for Cooest Christmas Holiday Commercial Ever!

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:38 PM

The ad never mentions Christmas

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM

If you keep moving the goal line, you might actually win the argument. Doubt it, but keep running!
The Foot Bath is not by the street. It is in a place where a muslim can wash their feet, as is custom.
Don’t universities also have chapels? Uh huh.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM

No, universities don’t have chapels. They have mulit-use, multi-faith, or multi-whatever rooms. A chapel would signify the Christian faith and would have been attacked by leftists such as yourself decades ago.

Footbaths are faith specific and as such force the taxpayer to support Islam. It doesn’t matter if they can be seen or not.

So, let’s summarize: You’re in favor of government support of Islam and atheists, yet do not want Christians to receive the same consideration Islam and atheism receives. You really couldn’t care less what the 1st Amendment says … you’re true motive is the minimization of Christianity specifically, while allowing Islam and atheism to spread and flourish.

In other words, you’re a typical leftist. Today’s leftist supports Islam, atheism and anything else that leads to the destruction of western culture, including Christianity. I’ll bet you harbor a searing hatred of Israel as well.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:45 PM

No, nobody is a victim in the argument, but if it wasn’t for the theists making the claims to knowing the truth of god and how we should live our lives, we wouldn’t have atheists arguing against them.

It takes a theist to make an atheist.

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:12 PM

A fanatical minority in Santa Monica prevents the majority from expressing their faith. This is actually the end of any debate about our different ways of living.

Gelsomina on December 24, 2011 at 2:45 PM

The City of Santa Monica preempts about 20 -30 metered parking spaces along Ocean Ave, so that the displays can be seen by passersby and people drive at 2 mph in the parking lane, rather than slowing traffic. I’d like to have the parking back. The Nativity was rather worn and could use a refresh, but it did light up some peoples souls, and that’s a positive thing.

Santa Monica is largely a Catholic neighborhood, but other denominations are well represented (there is a large Menorah in Palisades Park, a block further south). Atheists should have a chance at representation, it’s as free country after all, but where is the positive aspect of atheism on display?

They cry oppression while demonstrating their freedom.

It’s like people who have just found out that they could speak, and have now chosen to yell, drowning out all other voices, as though those voices had kept them silent, when in fact it’s those other voices that won them their speech in the first place.

Having another voice in the discussion is good thing. Using that voice to oppress others is not.

RINOs are people too on December 24, 2011 at 2:47 PM

Joy to you as well.

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:47 PM

The warmth and tolerance of the hard left.

jukin3 on December 24, 2011 at 2:49 PM

Looks like you finally got to the elementary school. Good for you.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:27 PM

I learn as I go along…you evidently don’t

KOOLAID2 on December 24, 2011 at 2:51 PM

And, Merry Christmas to you. I am a Christian, believe that Christ is my savior, but I don’t want to push my beliefs on other people. That’s all. This is public land.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM

I have never understood why a Christian would not want to proselytize. I don’t bash people over the head with my beliefs, but I do declare Christ because I want the people I care about to be saved. I’m not trying to bash you, but I guess I don’t get it.
Plus, some people declaring Christianity have some screwy non-biblical idea’s out there now and I’m trying to find out what people actually believe. Do you consider yourself a post-modern?
A lot of liberal Christians seem to be in that camp nowadays.

BakerAllie on December 24, 2011 at 2:51 PM

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:12 PM

You’re onto something there, which is that ‘theism’ is the original.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 2:52 PM

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:45 PM

I support their right to co-exist as minorities.
They can call them what they want to call them, but they are chapels. That was their first intent. So, why can’t the muslims have their foot baths for their own use?
As a Christian, I have been taught to stand up for Israel. But, we should also be mindful of the Palestinians and their woes.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:52 PM

Joy to you as well.

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:47 PM

Not saying the ad wasn’t cool, but if the ad’s about Christmas, why can’t they just say “Christmas”?

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:52 PM

Who says you don’t need God to have morality?

Ronnie on December 24, 2011 at 2:55 PM

Looks like you finally got to the elementary school. Good for you.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:27 PM
I learn as I go along…you evidently don’t

KOOLAID2 on December 24, 2011 at 2:51 PM

I had a typo, Jethro.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM

I’ll point it out to you just as soon as you find where the Constitution says anything about abortion.

Look as long as you want. It’s not in there.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

Trafalgar
Hey, just trying to lighten the mood! Next, sending out Emergency Eggnog. Cheers!

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

Do you consider yourself a post-modern?
A lot of liberal Christians seem to be in that camp nowadays.

BakerAllie on December 24, 2011 at 2:51 PM

I have been hearing (and reading) that term for some time now, and still havn’t a clue what it means.
Would any (or all) of you explain what post-modern means as it has been used in the debates, here?

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

The ad never mentions Christmas

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM

To be fair, it does say Holiday Blessings.

Ronnie on December 24, 2011 at 2:57 PM

Trafalgar
Hey, just trying to lighten the mood! Next, sending out Emergency Eggnog. Cheers!

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

Cheers to you too Ladysmith, and Merry Christmas!

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:59 PM

Long term though, it probably doesn’t matter. Local officials will likely simply alter the conditions of the lottery to prevent such gaming next year.
WolvenOne on December 24, 2011 at 2:25 PM

This is what happens when something is free. They should auction off the plots.

Count to 10 on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM

The Costitution wasn’t intended to contain language making murder illegal.

That was left to the subsequent legislating process.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM
I’ll point it out to you just as soon as you find where the Constitution says anything about abortion.

Look as long as you want. It’s not in there.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

You are thick, but I will type SLOWLY. I didn’t bring up abortion, someone else did. I pointed out that the Supreme Court, which is conjured up in the constitution, voted to make abortion legal.
So, there you go.
A little late to the party, aren’t you?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM

While this offends me on the surface, I take more offense with churches who do not preach Christ and instead preach a self-centered “Live Your Best Life Now” sort of mess that leaves Christ out or turns Him into some sort of magical genie that grants you your wishes.

While I am always concerned about religious freedom and will fight for it, I also know how the early Christians lived and died. John the Baptist was beheaded. Simon Peter was crucified upside down. Some of them lived and died under Nero. Or even what Christians in China go through now. Complaining about park space seems so small compared to that. I understand why it offends, but it’s hard for me to get worked up over it.

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and enjoys this time with their family.

BakerAllie on December 24, 2011 at 3:01 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM
The Costitution wasn’t intended to contain language making murder illegal.

That was left to the subsequent legislating process.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM

Apparently, two of the three branches of government.
I didn’t bring up abortion, Fossteen did.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:02 PM

I know a perfect way that Christians could get around this stuff. Just have a nativity scene without the baby Jesus. Then it wouldn’t be religious.

See? Wasn’t that easy peasy?

Yosef on December 24, 2011 at 3:02 PM

I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas and enjoys this time with their family.

BakerAllie on December 24, 2011 at 3:01 PM

You too … stay warm and don’t let any Hot Air liberal bedbugs bite!

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:03 PM

Cheers to you too Ladysmith, and Merry Christmas!

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:59 PM

Merry Christmas to you, Trafalgar! And thanks, Ronnie!

To the Rest of us with no Festivus, Happy “Whatever floats your boat or helps you find your lost remote” Day. Celebrate! :D

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM

Where does it say no murder?

Ronnie on December 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:02 PM

That point’s only valid to those who don’t equate abortion with murder.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 3:05 PM

I have been hearing (and reading) that term for some time now, and still havn’t a clue what it means.
Would any (or all) of you explain what post-modern means as it has been used in the debates, here?

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

L2G,

This is kind of heavy reading, but it’s a good start on the subject at least how it relates to the church:

Most people take from the philosophy here and there, but a lot of the talk in some churches regarding escaping the “left/right paradigm” and talking about “how this text (Scripture) spoke to You”. Off the top of my head Rob Bell is someone who I think of that pushes this sort of thing. Universalism (no hell, everyone will be saved) is also tied to it for some people.
It would take a long time to explain, but I hope this helped a bit.

BakerAllie on December 24, 2011 at 3:12 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Where does it say no murder?

Ronnie on December 24, 2011 at 3:04 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:02 PM
That point’s only valid to those who don’t equate abortion with murder.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 3:05 PM

That’s your problem. It is abortion and the Supreme Court has deemed it legal.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:12 PM

If you keep moving the goal line, you might actually win the argument. Doubt it, but keep running!
The Foot Bath is not by the street. It is in a place where a muslim can wash their feet, as is custom.
Don’t universities also have chapels? Uh huh.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM

Are you sure you want to go that direction? There are a lot more where this one came from:

“Muslims Want Catholic School to Provide Room Without Crosses

Catholic University has been accused of violating the human rights of Muslim students by not allowing them to form a Muslim student group and by not providing them rooms without Christian symbols for their daily prayers, according to a complaint filed with the Washington, D.C. Office of Human Rights.”

Maybe next we could talk about Muslim cab drivers with PUBLIC licenses refusing passengers due to their religious beliefs, IN MINNESOTA.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 3:16 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:32 PM
Are you sure you want to go that direction? There are a lot more where this one came from:

“Muslims Want Catholic School to Provide Room Without Crosses

Catholic University has been accused of violating the human rights of Muslim students by not allowing them to form a Muslim student group and by not providing them rooms without Christian symbols for their daily prayers, according to a complaint filed with the Washington, D.C. Office of Human Rights.”

Maybe next we could talk about Muslim cab drivers with PUBLIC licenses refusing passengers due to their religious beliefs, IN MINNESOTA.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 3:16 PM

And, when they fight for their rights, you complain. And yet, they are supposed to bend over backwards to give YOU what you WANT, because you are the majority. See how this works?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:18 PM

Don’t you people here just love it when a newbie shows up, drops snarky little put-downs all over the place, won’t respond to a friendly requests to be more specific or respond directly to a specific challenge?

I know I do.

Merry Christmas to all my atheist and agnostic friends!

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

To The Rouge Tomato at 11:04 a.m.
You made my day. I wish you and your
family a blessed Christmas.

jdeg2 on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

… the second comment was provocation on christians that think this festivity is just christian. early Christianity borrowed a lot from roman sun cults to the point of coinciding the birth date of its deity to the winter solstice and the “sol invictus” birth date.

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM

You’re reading way too much into that. The Catholic Church, in what I consider a somewhat misguided effort, knew that people customarily celebrated certain days — mainly Christmas and Easter — and figured they could use the same holiday, but celebrate something else entirely.

Why else decide to celebrate the birth of Christ at this time of year? The Bible says nothing about when Christ was born, so I suppose they figured this was as good a time to celebrate as any.

Of course, the early church never celebrated the birth of Christ. They would have been far more likely to celebrate the Resurrection.

Some Christians actually argue that you shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because it was originally a pagan holiday. I disagree with them for the same reason I disagree with you. Just because the date is the same doesn’t mean we’re still celebrating some pagan god that most of us have never heard of.

The huge majority of Christians. of course, enjoy Christmas.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

Wait wait wait wait…

Foot-washing stations on public land = “sensitivity to others’ religious beliefs.”

Nativity scene on public land = “forcing religion on others.”

Folks, you can’t buy that kind of doublespeak!

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 1:59 PM

I guess it makes sense, though. Price is a function of supply and demand. There’s a whole lot of supply of this doublespeak, and no demand. Ergo, no price.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 3:21 PM

And, when they fight for their rights, you complain. And yet, they are supposed to bend over backwards to give YOU what you WANT, because you are the majority. See how this works?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:18 PM

Lordy you’re consumed with anti-logic.

The Muslims applied to go to a private catholic school. Now they want the school to remove symbols of catholicism. Get it?

As usual, you side with Muslims. Very strange, but typical of a leftist.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:22 PM

And, when they fight for their rights, you complain. And yet, they are supposed to bend over backwards to give YOU what you WANT, because you are the majority. See how this works?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:18 PM

Please explain exactly, in LEGAL detail what rights a Muslim has to dictate to a CATHOLIC school how they should display their religious symbols, on PRIVATE land.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 3:22 PM

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:22 PM

This one is about as dense as they come and really isn’t worth anymore effort.

Have a Merry Christmas, darwin, and all the other Hot Air posters, no matter what your bent. :-)

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 3:25 PM

Don’t you people here just love it when a newbie shows up, drops snarky little put-downs all over the place, won’t respond to a friendly requests to be more specific or respond directly to a specific challenge?

I know I do.

Merry Christmas to all my atheist and agnostic friends!

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

This has been a fascinating thread to read and so far I have only gotten thru Page 4 of the comments.

The snarks are the dead giveaway.

Del Dolemonte on December 24, 2011 at 3:26 PM

Have a Merry Christmas, darwin, and all the other Hot Air posters, no matter what your bent. :-)

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 3:25 PM

Merry Christmas!

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:31 PM

As usual, you side with Muslims. Very strange, but typical of a leftist.

Interesting phenomenon, the Leftist-Radical Militant Islam Alliance. Surely the strangest of bedfellows. But “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” trumps all, and there is no doubt that your garden variety liberal secularist and your friendly neighborhood jihadist have one hate-object above all others: Christianity (with its mother religion Judaism coming in a close second).

A Blessed Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ to all.

spiritof61 on December 24, 2011 at 3:33 PM

As an atheist I am of the opinion that the Christmas story is a myth (Merry Mythmas everyone!) but hey, it’s a really nice myth and I can’t understand why anyone would want to “block” it unless they were a complete and utter douche bag.

Sharke on December 24, 2011 at 3:34 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:18 PM
Lordy you’re consumed with anti-logic.

The Muslims applied to go to a private catholic school. Now they want the school to remove symbols of catholicism. Get it?

As usual, you side with Muslims. Very strange, but typical of a leftist.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:22 PM

What is funny, well not funny, but the republicans and conservatives went crazy over this story because it involved MUSLIMS. In reality, wasn’t it a professor that filed the suit. The muslims were happy to go to a Catholic school.
But, the republicans/conservatives went insane over it because of the muslim slant.
Way to out yourselves!

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:34 PM

So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Your logic is just far too funny. Yep nobody has to ever pay for things they don’t believe in. /

Every hear of the Iraq War?

This is truly sad. Open Enrollment brings the bad with the good. Sometimes more bad.

CW on December 24, 2011 at 3:35 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM

I’ll point it out to you just as soon as you find where the Constitution says anything about abortion.

Look as long as you want. It’s not in there.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 2:56 PM

You are thick, but I will type SLOWLY. I didn’t bring up abortion, someone else did. I pointed out that the Supreme Court, which is conjured up in the constitution, voted to make abortion legal.
So, there you go.
A little late to the party, aren’t you?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM

Your main point is a tautology, and you call someone else thick. No, it’s not in the Constitution, and that IS the point. Somehow the Supreme Court looked at the Constitution they are supposed to follow and claimed it said something it clearly didn’t.

But, according to you, because they didn’t follow the Constitution, that proves they have the right to not follow the Constitution. You might as well declare they have the right to rewrite the Constitution at will, because your whole argument amounts to “the Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court thinks it means at that point in time.”

If the Constitution doesn’t bind the Supreme Court as well as Congress and the President and the state governments, then there is no Constitution to speak of. In such a case, the Supreme Court isn’t just part of our system of government, but above the rest of the government.

BTW, something else that is not in the Constitution: the notion that the Supreme Court has the power to decide that laws are unconstitutional.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 3:37 PM

Way to out yourselves!

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:34 PM

You really like to build straw men don’t you?

Again research straw men.

Later. Sheesh your a bore.

Will you promise to not be on the next thread I visit?/

CW on December 24, 2011 at 3:37 PM

Your main point is a tautology, and you call someone else thick.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 3:37 PM

That’s the Dead Giveaway.

Del Dolemonte on December 24, 2011 at 3:40 PM

Merry Christmas to all my atheist and agnostic friends!

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

Why, thank you! And also to you. :)

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 3:42 PM

Some Christians actually argue that you shouldn’t celebrate Christmas because it was originally a pagan holiday. I disagree with them for the same reason I disagree with you. Just because the date is the same doesn’t mean we’re still celebrating some pagan god that most of us have never heard of.

The huge majority of Christians. of course, enjoy Christmas.

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

isent a bit strange to celebrate Christmas at all if the birth date can never be really know?
all that singing “the savior is born” when in fact, it might not really born on this day. for me it makes the celebration extra ridiculous. at least i am sure that the winter solstice is really on this date. and that is worth celebrating!

lets us praise the rebirth of the sun! happy Natalis Invictus solis!

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 3:45 PM

What is funny, well not funny, but the republicans and conservatives went crazy over this story because it involved MUSLIMS. In reality, wasn’t it a professor that filed the suit.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:34 PM

In reality, it was a radical leftist professor. Leftists always support Islam.

“Banzhaf is known for filing dozens of human rights complaints, including those alleging discrimination against women and non-smokers. His Web site declares that he’s called “the Area’s Best-Known ‘Radical’ Law Professor.”

What’s funny, well not funny … is that you still side with the Muslims/radical leftist professor, regardless of the worthiness of the complaint or lawsuit.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:47 PM

Sharke on December 24, 2011 at 3:34 PM

I concur. Although I do think the myth does induce people to forget what is important at times. I’m talking about people who live their lives with the expectation of getting in to some heaven and for some savior to correct the wrongs of our selves and our world.

I don’t spend time or effort to obtain entry in to some imagined heaven. I am in heaven! This is as good as it gets and we should all make the best and the most of it. The reward for living a good life is living a good life. The reward for extending a helping hand to those in need is that one has extended that hand. To not love this life and squander precious drops of it in anticipation of death and what one imagines comes next is a shame.

This heaven of ours has it’s faults to be sure. It is up to us and us alone to make it better. It is up to us and us alone to create happiness. It is hard to build and it is easy to destroy. As children we revel in the ease of destruction as a manifestation of our own abilities. The mature person learns the much greater satisfaction derived from doing the hard work of building and improving. Sadly some never learn. Our permanence is in what we build and the children we raise to continue the work.

MJBrutus on December 24, 2011 at 3:47 PM

isent a bit strange to celebrate Christmas at all if the birth date can never be really know?

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 3:45 PM

Isn’t it strange to spend so much time on thread about something you profess no belief in? I think it’s very strange.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 3:49 PM

It just seems to me there are Atheists with no hobbies other than chasing down any sliver of religion they can find, particularly Christian. I say take up fishing, painting, jujitsu or water skiing. They are far more pleasurable than hunting down public nativity scenes or crosses in the desert.

Frankly, without them shouting and prancing about, many people wouldn’t even notice! I guess that’s it, they want someone to notice them?

Africanus on December 24, 2011 at 3:55 PM

Yeah, that God guy doesn’t exist, but let’s declare war on Him anyway?

Atheists – or those who will not serve?

“you are either with Me or against Me.”

Sorry, no room for neutrals here.

Don L on December 24, 2011 at 4:04 PM

Classy. How about those five dogs under your porch? If the porch falls, can you finally call yourself a redneck, like Jeff Foxworthy says?
You can put it on your resume.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:19 PM

I am so sorry that you have to spend Christmas alone. No happy extended family for you? Oh, dear.

katy the mean old lady on December 24, 2011 at 4:05 PM

Do you realize you have let a woman who is absolutely batsh!t crazy hijack this site? Wise up people.

bw222 on December 24, 2011 at 4:10 PM

There Goes The Neighborhood on December 24, 2011 at 3:19 PM

While I certainly accept that there are a number of traditions we adopted from pagan celebrations, like the Christmas tree, etc…, I wish we wouldn’t allow secularists/atheists to proclaim absolutely that Christmas on Dec. 25 is only because of some pagan holiday. There are other real possibilities for the date. It is far more likely that the dating of the Annunciation on March 25 determined it. Apparently, the Jews believed that a person died on the date of their conception, a full circle life or something. The date of the Crucifixion was set at March 25 and so is the date of the Annunciation. If the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and Jesus was conceived in her womb on the 25th of March…yep, 9 months later…

Regardless of a definite date, this is the one we have, with good reason, so I wish everyone a very Merry Christmas. May you all be blessed with the peace that only comes from Christ.

pannw on December 24, 2011 at 4:11 PM

Keep whining about the Supreme Court’s decision. Constitutional or not, they deemed it so and thus, it is legal.
This has taken away from the main argument, but, you guys are easily distracted.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 4:14 PM

MJBrutus on December 24, 2011 at 3:47 PM

Beautifully written. This year I’ve sat back and taken stock of how rich my life is. How lucky I am for those strengthening years in the Army, for our kids graduating college, for peace/laughter/love with a fantabuloso! husband.

Last time seeing hell was when the Red Cross deployed me to Katrina/Rita. Bomb blasted Beruit landscapes were nothing compared to the nightmare devastation in the eyes of people we took into shelters and signed up for FEMA trailers.

I don’t think any deity could make me look at my life and tell me any different than what I know. Here. Now. Is paradise.

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM

You are thick, but I will type SLOWLY

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM

So what sort of Christianity is this? Sure hope it’s not contageous.

Shay on December 24, 2011 at 4:16 PM

You are thick, but I will type SLOWLY

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 3:00 PM
So what sort of Christianity is this? Sure hope it’s not contageous.

Shay on December 24, 2011 at 4:16 PM

All the insults hurled at ME and you whine about this?
Selective outrage is funny.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 4:20 PM

Most atheists I’ve encountered are the poster children for bigotry. Most are cowards too. You don’t see them going after muslims. There’s consequences in doing that and muslims won’t put up with it. There’s always a muslim willing to take one for the team.

I say *most,* because I have encountered some atheists who simply go about their lives and are tolerant of those who believe. They are the exception, not the rule.

Atheists target Christians because they perceive them as weak and believe they should simply lay down and die.

Some day atheists are going to push to far. George Tiller found out how far he could push.

BruthaMan on December 24, 2011 at 4:22 PM

So what sort of Christianity is this? Sure hope it’s not contageous.

Shay on December 24, 2011 at 4:16 PM

The pseudo kind . . .

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 4:24 PM

Of course they have the right to do this, but why? I agree, a competing message (that’s not jerky) would have been fine, but what a bleak worldview if they’d truly rather look at nothing than the horror of having to look at a Christian display.

I hope those people go to work on Monday, rather than be “forced” to take a day off for a Christian holiday.

Esthier on December 24, 2011 at 4:27 PM

Most atheists I’ve encountered are the poster children for bigotry. Most are cowards too. You don’t see them going after muslims.

BruthaMan on December 24, 2011 at 4:22 PM

Well, the leftist atheists won’t go after Muslims. In fact, no leftist dares speak ill about Islam. They’re allies doncha know.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 4:28 PM

isn’t a bit strange to celebrate Christmas at all if the birth date can never be really know?
nathor on December 24, 2011 at 3:45 PM

Not strange to us, but it does seem to have a disturbing effect on you.

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 4:29 PM

“So what sort of Christianity is this? Sure hope it’s not contageous.

Shay on December 24, 2011 at 4:16 PM”

The sort who sins, which encompases all Christians. The differece is they will be forgiven simply because they have asked to be. Sounds real hard eh, but if you ever read the bible it’s full of people chosen by God acting all mean, nasty and selfish while they think he’s not looking. There are also those acting with kindness, love and compassion. Real compassion, not the Dem/liberal kind that’s more about you than the person your supposed to be helping!

Yes, those Christians are quite human and are sometimes quite snarky! That doesn’t excuse all the idiotic nonsense lawsuits over baby Jesus on display, stop already, get a life!

Africanus on December 24, 2011 at 4:30 PM

isn’t a bit strange to celebrate Christmas at all if the birth date can never be really know?

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 3:45 PM

Not really. If you found a kid on your front porch that you then raised as your own, presumably you’d still find a way to celebrate the child’s birthday even though you’d have no idea what it is.

This is a celebration mostly based on the fact that Jesus was born, not specifically to celebrate another year since his birth.

Esthier on December 24, 2011 at 4:35 PM

Well, the leftist atheists won’t go after Muslims. In fact, no leftist dares speak ill about Islam. They’re allies doncha know.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 4:28 PM

Indeed. Short term gains and not thinking long term is a consummate liberal character flaw. Deadbeat liberals are in for a shocking surprise if/when muslims ever turn on them. The “unbelievers” are the worst of the worst.

Ahh, such future visions are what makes me smile at Christmas :-)

BruthaMan on December 24, 2011 at 4:38 PM

Keep whining about the Supreme Court’s decision. Constitutional or not, they deemed it so and thus, it is legal.
This has taken away from the main argument, but, you guys are easily distracted.
BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 4:14 PM

I don’t think it’s whining, but don’t let that stop you from telling us to “knock off the whining.”

There are valid/legitimate/Constitutional ways of overturning Roe vs Wade. But based on your posts, you must believe Roe vs Wade to be “omnipotent.”

listens2glenn on December 24, 2011 at 4:39 PM

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