California atheists block out nativity scenes

posted at 10:30 am on December 24, 2011 by Jazz Shaw

I don’t like dredging up that whole “war on Christmas” thing, but (with apologies in advance to Allahpundit) this story kind of gets under my skin. In Santa Monica, California, there is apparently one particular stretch of road alongside a park which has traditionally been set aside for Christmas displays. The nativity scenes on display have been popular with residents and tourists. But in order to be fair to everyone, the city used a lottery to allocate space to groups wishing to put up Creche displays and related scenes. Now, a group of atheists are accused of swamping the lottery and taking over the lots.

This year, however, atheists have taken over most of the two-block stretch, nearly shutting out and angering a group of churches who contend the atheists have organized against the Christians and gamed a city lottery process allocating the holiday exhibit space.

In response, a leader of the atheist group says he’s just looking for evenhanded treatment to present his beliefs in a public space — and goes so far as to say that the city shouldn’t even be allowing any religious or even atheist expression in the park.

That’s why he and his group have put nothing on half of the park exhibit spaces that they’ve secured from the city this year.

The atheists are declaring the politically left-leaning seaside town of Santa Monica as their latest battleground in a national movement to assert their rights.

“I’m part of a growing movement in America of atheists standing up for their rights. It’s a very exciting time for us that we’re having more of an impact in our society,” said Damon Vix, the organizer of the atheist group.

Yes, you’re having a big “impact” on the local society, alright. You’re getting everyone angry at you and ruining their holiday season to no apparent purpose. In the interview, Mr. Vix makes it clear that he has no interest in seeing other people’s views being represented – he just doesn’t want the Christians to use it.

In the interest of fairness, I could see if competing groups wanted to use some of the lots for an alternative display. If somebody wants to put up a big menorah on one of the lots, I don’t think anyone is going to get too worked up over it. And for these atheists, if they had something in mind as an alternative message… even a Festivus pole and a wrestling mat for some feats of strength, I’d probably have to give them some support. But to lock off the land to leave it empty rather than allow a nativity scene? That’s not some fight for equality or freedom. That’s just being a Grinch.

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I am a Christian.
I just don’t feel that everyone should have to support or believe as I do.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:47 PM
You are also a douchebag. Living proof that atheists, though quite capable of douchebaggery, do not have a monopoly on it by a longshot.

gryphon202 on December 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM

Is that it? You’re argument is to attack me?
Ran out of conservative talking points? Oh yeah, Bill O’Reilly is off for the week.
Bad for you.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:55 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM

No one is forced to read this blog nor comment here.
DLTDHYOTWO.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 12:55 PM

Apparently not as hard as you.

:)

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 12:49 PM

Oh, I got both his and yours, just giving you a hard time, as usual. ;-)

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 12:56 PM

Fist of all Merry CHRISTmas to one and all, I am not sure it anyone else has touched on this in the discussion, but does anyone else notice that when these so called atheist poke their heads up regarding religion and religious traditions, is seems to be only aimed silencing Jews and Christians. Does anyone else notice, that these so called atheist seem to shy away from any criticism of Islam or Muslims (I personally see Islam as a bloody thirsty cult, but that is a discussion for another day), even though Islams presence is growing in strength in America. Do these so call atheist understand that if Islam ever became dominate in America, atheist would be labeled as unbelievers and be the first ones executed in the name of Islamic justice. Any one else have any thought on this.

Beastdogs on December 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM

Really? This place needs some alternate views to the good old boy network you have running up in here.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM

Why? If we wanted to hang out at HuffPo or dKos, we would go there.

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 12:53 PM

To be honest, Huffington Post and Daily Kos got very boring for me. And inflammatory.
I hate to admit it, but there is a certain amount of decorum here that is lacking at those sites.
You’re all WRONG, but at least most of you can make a sensible argument and use complete sentences.
That’s why I was so excited to join last week. Been reading here for years.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM

This is my attitude. I enjoy the various holidays as marvelous chance to get together with family and friends even though I have no religious beliefs. I have absolutely no problem with the various religious holidays and public displays of those that do. In fact, I find nativity scenes and the good cheer associated with them to be welcoming and a sign of a healthy community. Militant atheism is sparking and equally intolerant reaction by religious people as they try and fight back against the maniacal political agenda of militant atheists. It’s alarming and unhealthy for society in general.

oh yeah…and Merry Christmas from an constitution defending atheist to one and all.

Spirit Crusher on December 24, 2011 at 12:51 PM

Same to you. Great comment.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM

No one is forced to read this blog nor comment here.
DLTDHYOTWO.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 12:55 PM

Are you LOST?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 12:53 PM

I’m offering you a Merry Christmas to that part of your story that has claimed you have been saved and then renounced your faith on three separate occasions. You must remember at least that part of Christmas where we were able to put our differences aside and live and let live.

Be of good cheer. Save your moral crusade for the New Year.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM

Are you LOST?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM

No, she’s saved.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:50 PM
I’m just trying to find out where you got this idea that a nativity scene forces people to support Christianity … and if other symbols of Christianity have the same effect.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 12:54 PM

Is it NOT public space? Do not ALL our tax paying dollars pay for the maintenance of that piece of space? Not all tax paying individuals are Christians. Not all believe. So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

The evidence is all there Gryphon… Why try to deny it?

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 12:53 PM

Evidence =/= proof. And I am not necessarily asserting that you are, in fact, incorrect. But one of the most glaring holes in Darwinist evolution theory, and one that Darwin copped to himself in his “Origin of Species” is that similar species living alongside each other have a difficult time accounting for their genetic divergence in the same location — particularly species like chimps, which have less genetic diversity than species like humans, which have more.

That could mean one of two possible things, though not necessarily either: That chimps and humans did not evolve from a common ancestor, or that evolutionary pressures as described by Darwin is an incomplete explanation for the origin of species. There is always the third possibility that Darwin was correct, and that’s not a possibility I dismiss out-of-hand, but there are problems with all three of those assertions.

In the end, there are not two classes of mammals that include “human-like” and “not-human-like.” It’s more of a spectrum, on which humans and chimps happen to be very close. Monotremes share the same level of genetic similarity as primates do, but we don’t question that because we’re not monotremes.

gryphon202 on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Let this thread serve as an example that Atheists are more often than not the ones that turn the discussion ugly.

And I’ll lay even money Bedbugs is AnninCA.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 12:54 PM

Well the proof is in the comments timeline hawk… Not one atheist that I could see commented throughout pretty much the entire first page, but believers were in evidence of spreading hatred towards atheists in great supply. Comments about how stupid they were, about how spiteful they are, etc, etc, etc…

And when I commented it was only to put out a general comment about how the gods we’ve made are precisely what one would expect to see given our close genetic similarities to the other great apes.

Something that is entirely true by the way…

;-)

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

I am more likely to hear Merry Christmas from my colleagues in other countries (Canada, Germany, Vietnam) or orthodox Jewish colleagues than I am from most other American. I don’t know why that is, but I just was noticing that as I was thinking of the Christmas wishes I had personally received from friends, colleagues and strangers. I don’t mean to be critical of people that don’t wish a Merry Christmas. I am just sort of tired of the Schtick that in America Christians are pushing their beliefs on people.

I also question how secure these atheists are in their beliefs to have to go to such lengths to interfere with other’s expression of theirs.

earlgrey133 on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

oh yeah…and Merry Christmas from an constitution defending atheist to one and all.

Spirit Crusher on December 24, 2011 at 12:51 PM

Thank you, and I would also like to say that as both a Christian and an American, I have always enjoyed seeing others celebrate their faith or culture myself. My family has always had close relationships with many Jewish families and I loved the Hanukkah parties. Free expression and tolerance is what America is all about when it comes to religion.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

Are you LOST?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM

Nope, she’s been here a long time. Did you think that your “superior” Liberal intellect was going to win anyone at this Conservative website over to your failed ideology?

Reality check: You’re being toyed with, like a kitten plays with a ball of yarn.

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM

Are you LOST?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM
No, she’s saved.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Clearly. She never shuts up about it. I actually paid this site a compliment, and yet, she thinks I am FORCED to read it? Where she got that from, well, I have no idea.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM

It is time we start telling Atheists that they have no God, no religion and NO right to suppress the religious expression of others. Religion and Faith are protected rights in this country and it is time we make it clear that “Freedom From religion” is NOT a right. Shut your eyes and ignore religious displays the way a Christian pays no attention to Passover, a Lutheran pays no attention to Ash Wednesday, and a Jew pays no attention to Ramadan.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 12:42 PM

what you are saying is that we have no right to have no religion! really?
lol!

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:03 PM

Are you LOST?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM

Nope, she’s been here a long time. Did you think that your “superior” Liberal intellect was going to win anyone at this Conservative website over to your failed ideology?

Reality check: You’re being toyed with, like a kitten plays with a ball of yarn.

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM

That RightMan fella is ready to jump ship! That’s one. With many of you staying home because your guy doesn’t get the nod, that will be a win for Barack Obama.
Just like 2006. You’re gonna screw yourselves by staying home.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:03 PM

I also question how secure these atheists are in their beliefs to have to go to such lengths to interfere with other’s expression of theirs.

earlgrey133 on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

Or for that matter, why a self-professing “Christian” would be so quick to defend these insecure atheists. Will wonders never cease?

gryphon202 on December 24, 2011 at 1:03 PM

Without theists there would be no atheists. They’re like viruses in that respect…without a host they would be extinct. If Christmas did not exist we would never hear about them, and if there were no religions they’d find something else to complain about.

Dr. ZhivBlago on December 24, 2011 at 1:04 PM

what you are saying is that we have no right to have no religion! really?
lol!

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:03 PM

I think what we’re saying is that you have no right to inflict “no religion” on the rest of us.

gryphon202 on December 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM

I’m actually Jewish-Christian…and if i mention a faith at all…it tends to be Judaism. Jews don’t try to convert others
nice try though.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM

gryphon202 on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

Why do people always go back to what Darwin said about this or that.

We all know that while Darwin originated the theory, it doesn’t stop with him.

We’ve learned way, WAY more than he knew in his day. Genetics was just getting started in his day and age and it is genetics that tells us for sure that he was on the right path towards truth as regards the diversity of life we see today.

There have been a lot of discoveries since his day and a lot that he could only speculate on has been proven true, and some of what he said has been proven false (but he didn’t have enough information to know any better)…

He spawned the theory, but it doesn’t stop with him, and we may yet learn more about the ToE in the years to come.

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:06 PM

Is it NOT public space? Do not ALL our tax paying dollars pay for the maintenance of that piece of space? Not all tax paying individuals are Christians. Not all believe. So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

Ah, I see. It’s about being fiscally responsible.

And here I thought the “new generation” atheist (not all of them) was a loser with nothing to do but act outraged over any sign of Christianity. Oh and fighting for some rights that they apparently don’t have … somehow.

reaganaut on December 24, 2011 at 1:07 PM

Dude. Really well said! Merry Christmas man.

ghettogasman on December 24, 2011 at 12:51 PM

and a Merry Christmas to you as well as a Happy New Year.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:07 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM

I’m actually Jewish-Christian…and if i mention a faith at all…it tends to be Judaism. Jews don’t try to convert others
nice try though.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 1:05 PM

YEAH. We ALL know.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM

Awright Kiddos,
As much as I’m enjoying this chat-Wal-Mart demands my services today.
I’m traveling tomorrow so y’all have a very blessed Christmas!

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM

Well the proof is in the comments timeline hawk… Not one atheist that I could see commented throughout pretty much the entire first page, but believers were in evidence of spreading hatred towards atheists in great supply. Comments about how stupid they were, about how spiteful they are, etc, etc, etc…
SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

Well, the Santa Monica atheists are stupid and spiteful. The reaction, as you describe, seems understandable to me. What’s the problem? Is this another tired attempt to paint atheists as poor little victims?

pearson on December 24, 2011 at 1:09 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM

You’re less like a bedgug and more like a gnat.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 1:10 PM

Fist of all Merry CHRISTmas to one and all, I am not sure it anyone else has touched on this in the discussion, but does anyone else notice that when these so called atheist poke their heads up regarding religion and religious traditions, is seems to be only aimed silencing Jews and Christians. Does anyone else notice, that these so called atheist seem to shy away from any criticism of Islam or Muslims (I personally see Islam as a bloody thirsty cult, but that is a discussion for another day), even though Islams presence is growing in strength in America. Do these so call atheist understand that if Islam ever became dominate in America, atheist would be labeled as unbelievers and be the first ones executed in the name of Islamic justice. Any one else have any thought on this.

Beastdogs on December 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM

what is this? a christian trying to make atheists afraid by claiming the big bad muslims will do us harm if we weaken somehow christians?

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:11 PM

Well, the Santa Monica atheists are stupid and spiteful. The reaction, as you describe, seems understandable to me. What’s the problem? Is this another tired attempt to paint atheists as poor little victims?

pearson on December 24, 2011 at 1:09 PM

No, nobody is a victim in the argument, but if it wasn’t for the theists making the claims to knowing the truth of god and how we should live our lives, we wouldn’t have atheists arguing against them.

It takes a theist to make an atheist.

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:12 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:08 PM

You’re less like a bedgug and more like a gnat.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 24, 2011 at 1:10 PM

To each his own.
Nice argument though. Ha.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:13 PM

Thank you, and I would also like to say that as both a Christian and an American, I have always enjoyed seeing others celebrate their faith or culture myself. My family has always had close relationships with many Jewish families and I loved the Hanukkah parties. Free expression and tolerance is what America is all about when it comes to religion.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

It’s a shame to see the christmas season reduced to a proxy war between leftists and conservatives. Things are so different now than they were in the past. Stores have transformed the holiday into something different, businesses tread lightly in order to not offend, and people seem markedly less cheerful. The left seems to have upped the ante and decided to wage war against not only liberty but also on the feeling of good cheer and humanity. I’m an atheist, but I can say that most christians I’ve met I’d be glad to call friends and neighbors. Leftism truly is a disease of the soul that spreads nothing but misery, malaise and apathy.

Spirit Crusher on December 24, 2011 at 1:13 PM

BedBug, if you find that comments here are better written and with less acrimony than HuffPo etc., doesn’t that imply the people here are better thinkers(meaning we can’t all be all “WRONG”) with a kinder human spirit than at the other sites?

osidenessie on December 24, 2011 at 1:15 PM

Why do people always go back to what Darwin said about this or that.

We all know that while Darwin originated the theory, it doesn’t stop with him.

And we know that some of what Darwin asserted is true, and some of it isn’t. But I’m sure we cite Darwin as the father of modern evolutionary study for the same reasons we still fete Louis Pasteur as the father of modern germ theory and call flash heating of edible products “pasteurization.”

We’ve learned way, WAY more than he knew in his day. Genetics was just getting started in his day and age and it is genetics that tells us for sure that he was on the right path towards truth as regards the diversity of life we see today.

There have been a lot of discoveries since his day and a lot that he could only speculate on has been proven true, and some of what he said has been proven false (but he didn’t have enough information to know any better)…

He spawned the theory, but it doesn’t stop with him, and we may yet learn more about the ToE in the years to come.

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:06 PM

And here we come to one of those “duh” moments. Of course we’ve learned more since Darwin first proposed his origin of species theory. But what we’ve learned has raised at least as many questions as it’s answered. For instance, we now know about DNA and the role it plays in protein synthesis, but we still don’t know if genetic enterons play or at one time played a role in protein synthesis at all, and the possible ramifications for evolutionary theory thusly.

The evidence we’ve collected since Darwin points to evolution as an incredibly complex system, so much so that it’s difficult to know just what genetic similarity between species means, exactly. And I chose my words carefully there. I said “difficult,” not “impossible.”

The history of scientific study is replete with stories of conventional wisdom being turned on its head. I don’t think that’s necessarily going to stop just because we think we’re living in an enlightened age.

gryphon202 on December 24, 2011 at 1:16 PM

I’d like to add my voice as an agnostic who LOVES this time of year, from the nativity scenes and religious hymns to the plastic Santas and multicolored blinking lights.

These “atheists” are not at all representative of all atheists/agnostics. They’re all about controlling society and remaking it in their own image, caring not one bit about who they have to steamroll to get there. In that respect, they’re no better than the “oppressors” they claim to be fighting.

In summation, they’re not atheists, they’re a-holes. A-holes are who decent people of all creeds and colors should be fighting, not each other.

Merry Christmas to everybody!

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 1:16 PM

what you are saying is that we have no right to have no religion! really?
lol!

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:03 PM

No, that is not what I am saying. My last line was clear on this.

I am saying that you need to learn to accept public religious expression as it is a constitutionally protected right while suppressing that expression is not.

Blanking out all religious expression in public is your form of censorship.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:17 PM

No, nobody is a victim in the argument, but if it wasn’t for the theists making the claims to knowing the truth of god and how we should live our lives, we wouldn’t have atheists arguing against them.
It takes a theist to make an atheist.
SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:12 PM

Nah, most atheists need a distraction from the nihilism that is inherent in atheism and, for many, argument fulfills this psychological need. For example, the atheist blogosphere recently went into complete meltdown mode about an elevator, not some theist claim.

pearson on December 24, 2011 at 1:18 PM

Well the proof is in the comments timeline hawk… Not one atheist that I could see commented throughout pretty much the entire first page, but believers were in evidence of spreading hatred towards atheists in great supply. Comments about how stupid they were, about how spiteful they are, etc, etc, etc…

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 1:01 PM

Why don’t the atheist and lefties put up a display of their one true God–a giant picture of Barack Obama.

bailey24 on December 24, 2011 at 11:29 AM

That’s just dumb. I’m sure some atheists like him as president, but not all of us, and it’s kind of dumb to attribute him as their god since atheists don’t believe in gods.

The gods that we’ve made are exactly the gods you’d expect to be made by a species that’s about half a chromosome away from being a chimpanzee.

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 11:42 AM

The first person you replied to called no one stupid and wasn’t hateful in their comment. By your logic I would have thought you’d attack someone who called you stupid.

Then a couple people wished you Merry Christmas and ignored your comment.

Then nathor stirred the pot with these gems. (Although his comments are so outrageous I get the impression he might be a sockpuppeting Christian.)

another battle won! march on fellow atheists, soon Christmas will be no more and our dark lord will be happy! muahahahhaha!

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 12:41 PM

i am happy that Christians celebrate with us pagans, this winter solstice festivity. i am sure they know deep down, that their god is inferior to the great god that is the invincible sun.
glory to the invincible sun!

NATALIS INVICTIS SOLIS!

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 12:51 PM

And now nathor is on a rant trying to sidetrack the debate to pit Christians against other religions. Standard stuff on your part. BTW, Kraut, you have Atheists on this site calling the folks who complained douchbags too.

Merry Christmas again to my former Christian brother. Can I get one back for old times sake?

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:25 PM

I find it offensive that Nativity scenes offend them so they should just be quiet.

PA-Cman on December 24, 2011 at 1:26 PM

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:17 PM

I followed your logic and it’s a perfectly reasonable thing to expect of both sides.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:27 PM

I am saying that you need to learn to accept public religious expression as it is a constitutionally protected right while suppressing that expression is not.

Blanking out all religious expression in public is your form of censorship.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:17 PM

bah, the only thing i see here is that some atheists gamed the system and some nativity scenes got lost.
at least it just some nativity scenes, its lot like when christians game the democratic process with pastors endorsing candidates and christian candidates openly pandering christians.

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:27 PM

Pat Condell has a nice take on it here.

VPJ on December 24, 2011 at 1:29 PM

The tradition of having nativity scenes on display is as openly pro-infant and non-selfish as anything else that happens in our country. It’s a good tradition.
-
Good traditions bother the wacky left, anarchists and atheist types… it’s just that simple. For the most part… they love abortion, and hate infants… unless they can put them on some train tracks to make a point.
-

With many of you staying home because your guy doesn’t get the nod, that will be a win for Barack Obama.
Just like 2006. You’re gonna screw yourselves by staying home.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:03 PM

-
Me thinks you underestimate what a great motivator Barry is.
-

RalphyBoy on December 24, 2011 at 1:30 PM

BedBug, if you find that comments here are better written and with less acrimony than HuffPo etc., doesn’t that imply the people here are better thinkers(meaning we can’t all be all “WRONG”) with a kinder human spirit than at the other sites?

osidenessie on December 24, 2011 at 1:15 PM

No, things are just a little more milquetoast, isn’t that the cardinal sin around here, than at Huffington Post and Daily Kos. We keep things REAL over there, even if the truth hurts. You delude each other over here.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Things are so different now than they were in the past. Stores have transformed the holiday into something different, businesses tread lightly in order to not offend, and people seem markedly less cheerful. The left seems to have upped the ante and decided to wage war against not only liberty but also on the feeling of good cheer and humanity. I’m an atheist, but I can say that most christians I’ve met I’d be glad to call friends and neighbors. Leftism truly is a disease of the soul that spreads nothing but misery, malaise and apathy.

Spirit Crusher on December 24, 2011 at 1:13 PM

Well said.

Christmas is a day which celebrates the birth of Christ, but just as important is the spirit of Christmas which encourages goodwill toward men. Christmas is fast turning into a secular “Happy Holiday” where compulsive consumerism is the message. “Happy Holidays” has no meaning to it and fist fights at a shopping mall are not goodwill toward men.

A Nativity Scene next to a Menorah, two religious symbols coexisting peacefully, is a much more powerful and heart warming image than a decorated tree surrounded by “50% off all merchandise” signs.

Daemonocracy on December 24, 2011 at 1:31 PM

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:27 PM

I see quotes on this very site where atheists make their choices based on a candidates non-beliefs. Are you allowed and we’re not?

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:31 PM

Open enrollment sucks.

29Victor on December 24, 2011 at 1:32 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Not sure. I have an account at Huffpo and they’ve never allowed one of my comments past moderation. I think what you’re trying to say is that liberals and Democrats are fond of censorship and real Conservatives are not.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:33 PM

In response, a leader of the atheist group says he’s just looking for evenhanded treatment to present his beliefs in a public space — and goes so far as to say that the city shouldn’t even be allowing any religious or even atheist expression in the park.

Beliefs? I thought atheists didn’t have any beliefs. So, it’s really a religion.

Ward Cleaver on December 24, 2011 at 1:37 PM

Apparently, “keeping it real” is more important than tact, wit, and reason.

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 1:38 PM

I think what you’re trying to say is that liberals and Democrats are fond of censorship and real Conservatives are not.hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:33 PM

That bears repeating..Good one hawkdriver..:)

Dire Straits on December 24, 2011 at 1:39 PM

Is it NOT public space? Do not ALL our tax paying dollars pay for the maintenance of that piece of space? Not all tax paying individuals are Christians. Not all believe. So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

By that logic the atheists cannot use the space either. In addition, any Christmas tree anywhere on public property must be taken down immediately. Also, churches must be covered, or demolished, so no one in a public space can accidentally view them.

Plus, personal exhibitions of religion in a public place, such as wearing a cross or burqa, must be banned at once. Logically this will extend to banning Christians in public.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM

The evidence is all there Gryphon… Why try to deny it?

SauerKraut537 on December 24, 2011 at 12:53 PM

Sauerkraut,
Your discussion of retroviral insertion into the human genome is nice. However, having been involved in molecular biology research for a couple of decades I remain fascinated by your original implication that our close genetic relationship to chimpanzees has dictated the nature of the gods we have created for ourselves. Again, that implication does not make sense to me.

DaveDief on December 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:30 PM

Not sure. I have an account at Huffpo and they’ve never allowed one of my comments past moderation. I think what you’re trying to say is that liberals and Democrats are fond of censorship and real Conservatives are not.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:33 PM

I cannot speak for the moderators. I have no problem wiht posting.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM

And now nathor is on a rant trying to sidetrack the debate to pit Christians against other religions. Standard stuff on your part. BTW, Kraut, you have Atheists on this site calling the folks who complained douchbags too.

Merry Christmas again to my former Christian brother. Can I get one back for old times sake?

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:25 PM

the first comment was a provocation on christians that think atheism is a religion, the second comment was provocation on christians that think this festivity is just christian. early Christianity borrowed a lot from roman sun cults to the point of coinciding the birth date of its deity to the winter solstice and the “sol invictus” birth date.

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM

Are you LOST?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:58 PM

Nope, she’s been here a long time. Did you think that your “superior” Liberal intellect was going to win anyone at this Conservative website over to your failed ideology?

Reality check: You’re being toyed with, like a kitten plays with a ball of yarn.

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 1:02 PM

OH oh!
I’m looking at some of the names the last two days…responding to this talking point BedDung………P L E A S E you guys…already, I won’t be able to see in November how it “would have been” with crr6 and ernesto…at least save this one, lib4life, and libfreeordie for November!
I have this picture in my mind of that guy with his pants down against the police car at an OWS protest…and I would like for you to wait until November, before you use your intellect as toilet paper…Now, is too soon!…Let those 3 at least string along, until then…they represent the other side so well. There is entertainment value there, between the arguements of candidates.

KOOLAID2 on December 24, 2011 at 1:44 PM

Is it NOT public space? Do not ALL our tax paying dollars pay for the maintenance of that piece of space? Not all tax paying individuals are Christians. Not all believe. So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM

I’m a taxpayer. Have been for all but 15 of my 70 years.

I don’t have any kids in school. Why do I have to have my tax dollars go to support the local schools?

I don’t have an Amtrak station within 600 miles of here. Why do my tax dollars pay for those stations on taxpayers land?

I’m not a Muslim. Why are there foot washing stations on land that is paid for by my taxes?

I’m not an OWS’er. Why are they allowed to trash land that I pay the taxes on?

Want me to continue?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 1:45 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM

First, tell me where in the Constitution does it say abortions are legal?

Go find that penumbra or somethin . . .

Hey Bug! Merry Christmas! In this day, even a stocking full of coal has some value.

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 1:45 PM

Is it NOT public space? Do not ALL our tax paying dollars pay for the maintenance of that piece of space? Not all tax paying individuals are Christians. Not all believe. So, why should THEY be forced to have a Nativity Scene on THEIR land that they pay taxes on?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM
By that logic the atheists cannot use the space either. In addition, any Christmas tree anywhere on public property must be taken down immediately. Also, churches must be covered, or demolished, so no one in a public space can accidentally view them.

Plus, personal exhibitions of religion in a public place, such as wearing a cross or burqa, must be banned at once. Logically this will extend to banning Christians in public.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM

Do you see any atheist symbols out there? I don’t. Churches are on PRIVATELY owned property. See how that works? And, the religious symbols are on the PERSON. Sheesh, you really don’t get it.
Public land vs all these other silly situations you have dreamed up.
Stay out of the eggnog before your family ties you up and throws you in the bathtub.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:46 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:00 PM
I’m a taxpayer. Have been for all but 15 of my 70 years.

I don’t have any kids in school. Why do I have to have my tax dollars go to support the local schools?

I don’t have an Amtrak station within 600 miles of here. Why do my tax dollars pay for those stations on taxpayers land?

I’m not a Muslim. Why are there foot washing stations on land that is paid for by my taxes?

I’m not an OWS’er. Why are they allowed to trash land that I pay the taxes on?

Want me to continue?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 1:45 PM

Let’s see.
Try renting. You don’t have to pay taxes, not directly, but funny that your landlord will still charge you for them. But, it will make you feel better.
Use your vote..that was your congress that voted for to subsidize Amtrak.
The Foot Washing. Try being a little sensitive to other’s religious beliefs. It’s not just decorations, it’s for their prayers.
OWS had a right to protest. If you have a problem, go out and clean it up yourself before the trashman gets there.
Feel better?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:51 PM

Congrats again on the open enrollment, HA. Hope you’re getting what you wanted out of the extra hits, because the quality of the discourse has certainly swirled deeper into the crapper as a result.

Midas on December 24, 2011 at 1:51 PM

I am a Christian.
I just don’t feel that everyone should have to support or believe as I do.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:47 PM

But there is a big difference between not doing something and preventing others from doing it.

Gelsomina on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM

And yet, there is still abortion. Funny that way, huh? Where in the constitution does it say…no abortions?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM
First, tell me where in the Constitution does it say abortions are legal?

Go find that penumbra or somethin . . .

Hey Bug! Merry Christmas! In this day, even a stocking full of coal has some value.

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 1:45 PM

I didn’t bring up the abortion issue, Fossteen did. But, the Supreme Court made them legal. And, the Supreme Court is given power by the constitution.
And, Merry Christmas to you. I am a Christian, believe that Christ is my savior, but I don’t want to push my beliefs on other people. That’s all. This is public land.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM

agitprop. direct action.

Remember Uncle Saul’s rule six.

6. “A good tactic is one your people enjoy.”

leftists love to agitate and do anything to screw up a system…like spamming a lottery. It is really a great example of Alinsky…Make them live by their own rules…a lottery and freedom of religious expression.

and this

8. “Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose.”

Through a process combining hope and resentment, the organizer tries to create a “mass army” that brings in as many recruits as possible from local organizations, churches, services groups, labor unions, corner gangs, and individuals.

r keller on December 24, 2011 at 1:54 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM

So, you don’t wish for others to experience His Saving Grace, as you supposedly have?

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 1:55 PM

I see quotes on this very site where atheists make their choices based on a candidates non-beliefs. Are you allowed and we’re not?

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:31 PM

there are “non-believing” candidates? where?
i agree this would be wrong. personaly i just get very annoyed when candidates pander for christian vote. candidates should talk about political issues, not how good christians they are and how good christianity is.
take the example of perry last comercial. while he talked about “restoring the greatest thing in america” there was an image of a cross in top of a church.

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:56 PM

A Festivus Pole?
For the rest of us Pole?
Capital idea!
I’m in. :)

In response, a leader of the atheist group says

Who cares what he says? When did non-believers start forming themselves into de facto churches with pastors, um, I mean “leaders”, and congrega–er, “atheist group[s]“? This is a bizarro world, Through-The-Looking-Glass Fred Phelps bullsheisse version of atheism.

This Jack-A-Dandy says more atheist are becoming pains in the keister like him? I certainly hope not. Can’t know for sure because the vast majority of us DON’T JOIN GROUPS!
:)

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 1:57 PM

oh yeah…and Merry Christmas from an constitution defending atheist to one and all.

Spirit Crusher on December 24, 2011 at 12:51 PM

I second that. Merry Christmas everyone!

peski on December 24, 2011 at 1:57 PM

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:33 PM

I cannot speak for the moderators. I have no problem wiht posting.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM

Considering what you post her, not surprising. That’s why they call it censorship. I’ve never gotten a single comment posted. I guess your opinion is more valuable than mine.

So welcome to a site that doesn’t demonstrate it’s value of the 1st Amendment with any shade of hypocrisy.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM

Well, technically speaking, the Supreme Court said that States could not prohibit the practice of abortion.

Cause it was in a penumbra or somethin . . .

BTW, being a saved Christian and all, tell me how you feel about the Great Commission (Matthew 28: 18-20) and how it squares with your live and let live brand of Christianity.

BigAlSouth on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

Nathor did even full read what I wrote dumbass, just go to a country where Islam is dominate, and announce very loudly and proudly that you are a atheist, and just see how long you last before you get beaten and arrested by their morality police, and yes, they do have them. Nathor, do think you big and bad for attempting to silence Jews and Christians, who will respond to you by praying for you and your family. Go to a Islam dominated country and try to pull the same crap you attempt here, and you are likely to end up losing you head, if you don’t get hung, or stoned to death first. As for my faith it is stronger than ever thank you. Militant atheist like you Nathor make me laugh, you whine more than my daughter does by a long shot, what Nathor don’t you have anything productive to do in life, but to try and make people miserable like yourself??? I enjoy life and what it has to offer, again Marry CHRISTmas to one and all.

Beastdogs on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:51 PM

As expected you couldn’t approach the issues, as presented, as compared to your defense of the use of the taxes paid by Atheists. Typical liberal.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 1:59 PM

Wait wait wait wait…

Foot-washing stations on public land = “sensitivity to others’ religious beliefs.”

Nativity scene on public land = “forcing religion on others.”

Folks, you can’t buy that kind of doublespeak!

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 1:59 PM

Do you see any atheist symbols out there?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:46 PM

I didn’t know atheists had symbols. Wouldn’t that imply a religion? Anyway, the mere fact that nothing is there is symbolic of atheism. They’re using public property to profess their belief in nothing. I find that highly offensive … like it’s forcing me to support atheism against my will.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:00 PM

I think Christmas kicks holiday butt, but then I’m a non-practicing atheist.

Immolate on December 24, 2011 at 2:01 PM

Congrats again on the open enrollment, HA. Hope you’re getting what you wanted out of the extra hits, because the quality of the discourse has certainly swirled deeper into the crapper as a result.

Midas on December 24, 2011 at 1:51 PM

Yeah, that often happens when they open it up. Give it a few weeks, most of the trolls will give us a little natural selection demonstration, and the natural attrition will leave a few worthwhile new posters.

peski on December 24, 2011 at 2:01 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:42 PM
Considering what you post her, not surprising. That’s why they call it censorship. I’ve never gotten a single comment posted. I guess your opinion is more valuable than mine.

So welcome to a site that doesn’t demonstrate it’s value of the 1st Amendment with any shade of hypocrisy.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

I appreciate that and I am sorry that they don’t allow another view point. Oh, and thank you for your service. I read your posts while you were overseas. You are an inspiration. I may be a liberal and I don’t agree with why we went to war, I do appreciate the troops that fight our battles. Thank you.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:02 PM

Wait wait wait wait…

Foot-washing stations on public land = “sensitivity to others’ religious beliefs.”

Nativity scene on public land = “forcing religion on others.”

Folks, you can’t buy that kind of doublespeak!

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 1:59 PM

No kidding

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:02 PM

there are “non-believing” candidates? where?

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:56 PM

Barack Obama

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:04 PM

I think Christmas kicks holiday butt, but then I’m a non-practicing atheist.

Immolate on December 24, 2011 at 2:01 PM

Lol!
Clever.

Ladysmith CulchaVulcha on December 24, 2011 at 2:04 PM

So welcome to a site that doesn’t demonstrate it’s value of the 1st Amendment with any shade of hypocrisy.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM

You should also welcome her to a site that supports the people who defend and protect her right to exercise the 1st Amendment.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:04 PM

I would like to offer a suggestion. Christmas is only special to to Christians so they could provide them space for a week and let the the phallic worshipers have another week.

dunce on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM

Do you see any atheist symbols out there?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:46 PM
I didn’t know atheists had symbols. Wouldn’t that imply a religion? Anyway, the mere fact that nothing is there is symbolic of atheism. They’re using public property to profess their belief in nothing. I find that highly offensive … like it’s forcing me to support atheism against my will.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:00 PM

Now you’re just being silly.
No, atheists believe in nothing. So, why should they have to look at a Nativity Scene on their public lands?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM

So welcome to a site that doesn’t demonstrate it’s value of the 1st Amendment with any shade of hypocrisy.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 1:58 PM
You should also welcome her to a site that supports the people who defend and protect her right to exercise the 1st Amendment.

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:04 PM

Hello? Did you not read my post to hawkdriver?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:06 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 12:57 PM

Red State State of Mind on December 24, 2011 at 2:07 PM

Merry Christmas to all here at Hot Air! Hawkdriver, bishop, dire straits, annoyinglittletwerp…and so many others, you all make my day every day!

Here’s my favorite Christmas carol for you all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBRbypg_c9Y

Trafalgar on December 24, 2011 at 2:08 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 1:53 PM

So, you don’t wish for others to experience His Saving Grace, as you supposedly have?

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 1:55 PM

I respect their rights not to have a Nativity Scene on their public land. It represents all, not just the majority.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:09 PM

Now you’re just being silly.
No, atheists believe in nothing. So, why should they have to look at a Nativity Scene on their public lands?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

There ya go.

El Dillo on December 24, 2011 at 2:09 PM

No, atheists believe in nothing. So, why should they have to look at a Nativity Scene on their public lands?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM

I don’t believe in Allah. WHY should I have to look at foot washing stations on public lands?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:10 PM

There are nice tolerant atheists and there are intolerant atheist jerks. These atheists are the jerk type.

MCGIRV on December 24, 2011 at 2:11 PM

Congrats again on the open enrollment, HA. Hope you’re getting what you wanted out of the extra hits, because the quality of the discourse has certainly swirled deeper into the crapper as a result.

Midas on December 24, 2011 at 1:51 PM

Take heart Midas. We have our own quality control here, eventually natural selection (or is it intelligent design?) kicks in and things settle down.

Either we eventually get bored with the trolls and stop giving them the attention the crave and they disappear or they crank up their rhetoric so high in an attempt to get someone to respond or to prove their stupid points that they get themselves banned.

Of course, I thoroughly believe that a number of the more strident and outspoken noobs are campaign staffers that will mysteriously disappear once the primaries are over.

And, although I share your frustration at the quality of comments of late (as you can see from my pithy comment above), I do quite enjoy a number of the New Hotnesses that we aquired at this last registraion. When this refining process is over, they will be the gold that remains.

29Victor on December 24, 2011 at 2:11 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:09 PM

I was referring to your statement that you evidently are too embarrassed, or something, to share your faith.

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM

No, atheists believe in nothing. So, why should they have to look at a Nativity Scene on their public lands?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM
I don’t believe in Allah. WHY should I have to look at foot washing stations on public lands?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:10 PM

Always have to show your hate for the muslims.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM

Hello? Did you not read my post to hawkdriver?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:06 PM

I did. But after seeing your blatant double-speak exhibited above, and being that it was so easily and readily recognized by many, why should I put any creditability in ANYTHING you write?

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:13 PM

Now you’re just being silly.
No, atheists believe in nothing. So, why should they have to look at a Nativity Scene on their public lands?

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:05 PM

Public land just doesn’t belong to atheists or communists.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:13 PM

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:09 PM

I was referring to your statement that you evidently are too embarrassed, or something, to share your faith.

kingsjester on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM

Personally, I’m not afraid or embarrassed to show my faith. But, I do respect others that do not believe as I believe.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:14 PM

nathor on December 24, 2011 at 1:56 PM

There are people right here, looking for non-believing candidates. No time today. But .. You remind me on another thread and I’ll post a few examples. Deal? In the mean time I will tell you that you have a right to be governed by an impartial body that we elect with regards to any one religion. Where reasonable people differ is that the wording of the Constitution or any of it’s amendments dictates that consideration guarantees freedom from religious expression in the public eye. That is where unreasonable people dictate that I am somehow required to hide my faith.

There is some answer in the middle. I have friends from many faiths and I of course consider Judaism my sister faith. If you were able to see my FaceBook page and my seasonal greeting to friends, it would be very apparent to you my family is quite considerate to all faiths at this time of year. I have Muslim friends and I have fought along side of Iraqi and Afghani Muslims and Christians. I harbor no ill to anyone of faith who doesn’t use their religion as a weapon of fear. I honestly believe coexist is more than a liberal bumper-sticker invented by some non-believer.

What harm do you see occurring when any of us display our faith during time of religious celebration?

This is not a day for political bickering though and tomorrow is less so. So…

To all who celebrate at this time of year, Merry Christmas and Happy Chanukah and Festival of Lights.

hawkdriver on December 24, 2011 at 2:14 PM

duh >>> credibility

Yoop on December 24, 2011 at 2:15 PM

Always have to show your hate for the muslims.

BedBug on December 24, 2011 at 2:12 PM

Why is that hate? They use public money, and public property to construct footbaths used in religious ceremonies. The same logic you apply to nativity scenes applies to that.

darwin on December 24, 2011 at 2:15 PM

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