Video: Bachmann takes down Paul

posted at 8:40 am on December 16, 2011 by Ed Morrissey

I can’t guarantee you that this will be the last video we post from last night’s debate, but it’s probably going to be the most memorable — after Rick Perry’s gestalt-grasping clip in which he declared himself the “Tim Tebow of the Iowa Caucuses,” that is.  In this clip, Michele Bachmann goes after Ron Paul on Iran and national security as if she takes him seriously.  Paul is reduced to sputtering a non-sequitur about how wrong it is to declare war on 1.2 billion Muslims, which isn’t at all what Bachmann said, and more or less becomes unable to complete most of his own sentences, the majority of which are also non-sequiturs.  No matter what one thinks of Bachmann, you can’t deny her ability to get under the skin of other candidates:

One of my favorite moments in this debate came when Paul tells Bachmann that the “UN” never said any such thing, and then in the next breath says they weren’t telling the truth when they did. It provoked a few laughs from the audience and a whole avalanche of derision on Twitter. The mask well and truly slipped for Paul in this final debate.

So how did the Republican candidates do? Mitt Romney started off strong and was having one of his best debates in weeks until Chris Wallace asked him about his position switches on abortion, gay rights, and gun laws. He gave a good answer on his transformation to pro-life, but left himself wide open on gay rights. Rick Santorum had his best moment of the debate when he methodically walked through what Romney actually did and said on defending marriage. That didn’t turn the night into a disaster, but Romney didn’t finish strong. Santorum did well last night, too, and given his blanketing of Iowa for the last several months, might have given voters there a reason to give him a second look.

Gingrich had a better debate all the way through, but he took a few slings and arrows along the way. He took some hits on Freddie Mac again, especially from Bachmann, but gave a good rebuttal to those attacks — although clearly no one is thinking that Freddie Mac hired him as a historian. Bachmann scored on the argument that one doesn’t have to be a formal lobbyist to influence people in Washington, and it seems foolish to argue that Freddie Mac didn’t hire him as a consultant for his influence on public policy as a former Speaker. No one is buying the “historian” idea. Otherwise, Gingrich gave a feisty and charismatic performance, or at least charismatic in Gingrich’s terms. He didn’t do any damage to himself, and at the least Gingrich gave himself some room to reclaim a little of his lost momentum.

Rick Perry had the best risk/reward outcome in the debate. As I predicted, no one on stage went on the attack against Perry, and that meant Perry didn’t have to go on the attack against anyone else. The Tebow reference was obviously planned, and brilliant; it’s catchy, timely, easily understood as a deep underdog prevailing through faith in himself and God despite being dismissed by everyone else as the clock starts running out. Perry didn’t get quite as much face time as other candidates, but he made the most of it. After two good debates, and this latest especially strong performance, Perry now gets to do the retail politicking at which he excels without having to engage in any extemporaneous exchanges with other candidates. He could turn this into a comeback, and really be the Tim Tebow of the Iowa Caucuses. Don’t count him out.

As for Bachmann, she had a good evening as well, but made a couple of big mistakes. After scoring points on Gingrich on Freddie Mac, she overshot the mark by accusing Gingrich of trying to elect Republicans who back infanticide. Gingrich slapped back at Bachmann for not getting her facts straight, which has been a problem for Bachmann in the past. Even though Bachmann has regularly attacked other candidates for not telling the truth, at least as she sees it, she protested that her status as a candidate for President of the United States means that her facts are straight, and that it’s “outrageous” to suggest otherwise:

Bachmann earlier had cited Politifact as stating that she had all her facts straight in the last debate, a strange thing to do since Politifact has been roundly critical of Bachmann’s debate claims for months. Sure enough, immediately after the debate, they gave her a Pants On Fire rating for that claim:

At that point, Bachmann jumped back in. “Well, after the debates that we had last week, PolitiFact came out and said that everything that I said was true. And the evidence is that Speaker Gingrich took $1.6 million. You don’t need to be within the technical definition of being a lobbyist to still be influence-peddling with senior Republicans in Washington, D.C., to get them to do your bidding.”

Wait… what? We said that “everything” Bachmann had said was true?

Actually, that’s not what we said.

At the Dec. 10 debate she was referring to, PolitiFact checked two claims from Bachmann and rated them Mostly True and Pants on Fire.

The fact-check she may have been referencing was, “In 1993, Newt Gingrich ‘first advocated for the individual mandate in health care. And as recently as May of this year, he was still advocating’ for it.” We rated that one a Mostly True.

But we also rated her claim that Mitt Romney, as governor of Massachusetts, “put into place socialized medicine.” We found that was ridiculously false and rated it Pants on Fire.

Her comment about our ratings was also a bit of a non-sequitur. Neither of the two items we checked addressed the subject at hand — Gingrich’s work for Freddie Mac, what he thinks of Freddie Mac today, or whether Gingrich was ever a lobbyist.

Maybe Bachmann was simply trying to burnish her image as a truth teller. However, using PolitiFact to back up that assertion is a bit unusual. Her PolitiFact report card shows 59 percent of her statements rated have earned either a False or Pants on Fire. She has earned five Trues, three Mostly Trues, six Half Trues, seven Mostly Falses, 19 Falses and 11 Pants on Fires.

That’s so easily checkable that it’s almost unbelievable that Bachmann would cite Politifact as a specific authority on the subject. Has she not read their site and their evaluations of her statements? Their evaluations certainly put paid to the notion that being a presidential candidate means one should just assume you have your facts straight, too.

As for Jon Huntsman, it’s hard to see why he bothered to show up. He isn’t competing meaningfully in Iowa anyway. Huntsman didn’t offer any compelling narrative or responses last night, so he would have done better for his campaign to stay in New Hampshire and do some retail politicking in a state he’s taking seriously.

Blowback

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Portia, I’ll vote for him if he’s the nominee. I meant I will not vote for him in the primary.

Thanks also for your comment. It’s nice to actually be able to discuss something without knives coming out.

INC on December 16, 2011 at 2:46 PM

Portia46 on December 16, 2011 at 2:39 PM

I agree with your personal assessment, but I don’t think it resonates with what INC is implying. There is a set of the electorate that will vote “R” regardless, as long as he/she doesn’t explode on stage when paired with the “D” — no one has to worry about this section of the vote.

What INC is addressing is the principled side of the candidacy. That is, it’s the “what do you really think” part of a candidate. It’s will be foolish to assume that the GOP will come back to ranch and vote straight “R” in 2012 when you have a candidate that doesn’t connect to its electorate in a principled manner.

Like I’ve said earlier, Romney will defeat Obama because of independent voter turnout, not GOP turnout.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 2:51 PM

I also agree we need to get out of our current wars, but only because we refuse to fight them to win (and contrary to your stupid talking points, that is a tangible mission objective).

runawayyyy on December 16, 2011 at 2:45 PM

This is what I would wish Paul would say. He does say “go to war, fight and win it quickly, and get them home,” but he would certainly benefit if he would phrase it in an eloquent red meat manner — like Gingrich and Perry.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 2:55 PM

EddieC on December 16, 2011 at 1:29 PM

Let me try and condense that lengthy post.

THEY ALL SUCK . . . . . . except Mitt romney.

Is that close enough?

listens2glenn on December 16, 2011 at 2:57 PM

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 2:07 PM

There is a big difference between you and me. I would agree with you that perhaps we do have too many bases around the world. Unlike you however, I acknowledge and know from first hand experience that we have closed hundreds of bases and outposts over the last two decades, all over the world. Anyone bent on Empire wouldn’t do that.

We stay in places we’re wanted and leave places when asked, not real smart strategy for an American Empire.

I also know that we cannot simply close all of our bases from around the world and retreat into what some have referred to as ‘Fortress America’. That kind of thinking is short-sighted and seriously hampers our ability to respond to things worldwide if the need arises.

I can see a middle ground, you cannot. Why? Because to you there is no middle ground.

Folks like you like to constantly point out that America has made too many mistakes in the past and we cannot afford to make more. On this I wold agree, but only partially.

As you use our countries mistakes as a bludgeon to further your philosophy and tear down the country, I want to learn from those mistakes and not repeat them.

Yeah, America has made mistakes. But we didn’t cause or force anyone else to act the way they have. Nations and people have free will. They can chose to act or react as they please. Unfortunately most of the time they choose to react negatively. When they do, somehow that is an indictment against us instead of those making the choice.

Even with WWII, you use the Nazi defense by citing the Versailles treaty for justification of their actions. You can’t even fault the Nazis for WWII. You have to twist and turn everything around the blame the non-responsible party.

9/11 was cause because we “are over there”, as Herr Doktor said. Some of your more strident cohorts don’t believe that, they believe it was caused directly by our government.

Pearl Harbor wasn’t Japan’s fault. They simply had no other recourse than to start a war because we wouldn’t give them steel or oil. Nevermind their actions in China that precipitated it.

Jerry Sandusky wasn’t really molesting kids in the shower, he was just helping them lather up with soap, which one of his lawyers actually stated as a possible defense.

FloatingRock is the only Paul supporter I remember who has stated he he doesn’t like some of his policies and has some real issues with him. He’s honest.

Some others like JG23 have gone so far today as to excuse the treatment of Jews in Iran by making the case that well, at least the let them go to church and have a kosher deli or two. Of course there’s no second Holocaust in Iran, they have a token seat in their parliament after all. And there is no slaughter of Jews in Iran, except when there is – with no charge or trial.

I’m as open minded as they come, I can’t afford not to be. I can’t afford to bury my head in the sand – for whatever reason, no matter how attractive a candidate looks or how close I meld with anyone’s particular ideology. I am my own person.

I know what truth is. Not my own ‘personal truth’ or some such nonsense. Real, honest to goodness, no bullsh!t, real-world truth.

My wife has cancer. She is going through chemotherapy. That’s truth. You can try to run from it or try to sugar coat it or ignore it or whatever. But it keeps coming back, even though we catch it early, with more and more frequency. I and my wife deal with the truth all the time. We can’t afford not to. So I live the rest of my life that way.

I don’t know why I’m saying all of this really, the words just come out. But I don’t need to be lectured about the truth.

I would ask that some of you folks really, honestly face the truth. Believe me, its hard. It’ll be one of the hardest things you’ve ever done in your life if your being honest about it.

Too many people who are speaking about ‘Truth’ have no effing clue about what they are talking about.

I apologize for the rant and didn’t want to get to personal to anyone. Sorry if I did.

Truth, as Life, means a lot to me

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 2:58 PM

mrkurtz,

That’s a good read on what I was saying about Romney–it also tracks with what Portia said about appearance being everything to him.

INC on December 16, 2011 at 3:01 PM

Re JohnGalt23 who has spent his day defending the cult leader…

They could summon some of their own chemical weapons. Have they used those, or are you full of shiite?

A chemical weapons attack would kill hundreds, an atomic bomb would kill millions. The USA or Israel could easily recover from a chemical weapons attack, a nuclear attack would change the USA dramatically or end israel.

“That you do not recognize a qualitative difference between an attack and an attack with nuclear weapons tells me all I need to know about your foreign policy expertise.”

That you are fine with an Iranian nuclear weapon and think that diplomats could curtail their ambitions if they are a nuclear state tells me that “foreign policy expertise” isn’t a phrase you should be tossing around.

The fact that your ad hominem argument pretty much amounts to you ceding defeat aside…

Really? Guess that means you surrendered when you started in on the “glass pipe”. I don’t expect to persuade you of course, you have joined your cult of personality. Know this though: Americans aren’t going to elect your creepy, bigoted moral coward because we are not a cowardly nation and any one with a brain isn’t going to trust an islamist thugocracy that has been a terrorist nation since 1979. Thankfully, this is Ron Pauls last shot at wasting everyones time.

“ou don’t know a damn thing about me, noob.

I can just go on what you have written.

V7_Sport on December 16, 2011 at 3:06 PM

And yes, we most certainly do have hundreds of bases. I guess you didn’t follow the link I supplied.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 2:13 PM

Your link is not a reliable source.

I’ve seen claims of thousands of bases/installation/locations, including about super secret ones almost no one knows about. They usually come from sources wearing tin foil hats.

All unbiased documents and reporting I’ve seen indicate at most 150 military bases and “installations”. They document base names, locations, and the number personnel stationed there. They include installations with less than a hundred military personnel stationed there.

All claims of many hundreds and thousands of military bases and installations I’ve seen come from progressive, liberal, and libertarian sources. They do not list the names of the bases/installations, their locations, or the number of personnel located there. These sources and these claims are biased and unreliable.

Whether or not they “belong” where they are is debatable, and I have not really argued that. I have stated how many there are, their size, what they are for, why they are there, and that the governments of the countries they are in want them there. I have argued that they are not evidence of “empire” in any historic sense of the word.

Obviously you disagree. C’est la vie.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 3:09 PM

Too many people who are speaking about ‘Truth’ have no effing clue about what they are talking about.

I apologize for the rant and didn’t want to get to personal to anyone. Sorry if I did.

Truth, as Life, means a lot to me

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 2:58 PM

This needs to be highlighted… very well said catmman!

To borrow from a Dem, “inconvenient truths” are needed in this world — not through the myopia of preconceived notions, but through diligent examination.

When we give up that ability to challenge the existing paradigms, we all lose. Especially ones given to us through the blessings of our country!

We should be debating the quality of our ideas — challenging our preconceived notions. I absolutely know we have better ideas than Obama and the Democratic Party. We all win when we can completely and convincingly win the battle of ideas with data and logic, and not demagoguery, Pavlovian defenses, and our internal fears.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 3:10 PM

Factcheck, Politifact, and AP – every single fact checking agency that has looked – have shown Bachmann was wrong on the UN report, and wrong on the ‘wipe Israel off map’ comment. That is more deserving of a HA post than baseless bashing of Ron Paul.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jemJF83fYxaOM0H2g3qlAku2x6UQ?docId=bc6ee7d3e6424793977365c46417254a

“As Paul said, the report of the International Atomic Energy Agency does not state that Iran is within months of having nuclear arms. The U.N. agency report does suggest that Iran conducted secret experiments whose sole purpose is the development of nuclear weapons but did not put a time frame on when Iran might succeed in building a bomb, and it made no final conclusion on Tehran’s intent.
Bachmann also erred by arguing that Iran has “stated they will use it (a nuclear weapon) against the United States.”

Sure, Bachmann was forceful. But Paul was right.

NewLiberty on December 16, 2011 at 3:10 PM

catmman, thanks for your comment. I’m sorry to hear about your wife. You’re courageously fighting a tough fight with eyes wide open.

INC on December 16, 2011 at 3:12 PM

The Iranians are not the Nazis nor the Communists!
Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 1:39 PM

They are Islamists… Which are every bit as dangerous.

V7_Sport on December 16, 2011 at 3:13 PM

*slaps forehead*

Of course! I love Thurber.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 2:37 PM

Pro-tip, ‘MelonCollie’: When responding, remember to use the sock puppet from which you made the original comment.

troyriser_gopftw on December 16, 2011 at 3:17 PM

There is a big difference between you and me. I would agree with you that perhaps we do have too many bases around the world. Unlike you however, I acknowledge and know from first hand experience that we have closed hundreds of bases and outposts over the last two decades, all over the world. Anyone bent on Empire wouldn’t do that.

We stay in places we’re wanted and leave places when asked, not real smart strategy for an American Empire.

I also know that we cannot simply close all of our bases from around the world and retreat into what some have referred to as ‘Fortress America’. That kind of thinking is short-sighted and seriously hampers our ability to respond to things worldwide if the need arises.

I can see a middle ground, you cannot. Why? Because to you there is no middle ground.

Folks like you like to constantly point out that America has made too many mistakes in the past and we cannot afford to make more. On this I wold agree, but only partially.

As you use our countries mistakes as a bludgeon to further your philosophy and tear down the country, I want to learn from those mistakes and not repeat them.

Yeah, America has made mistakes. But we didn’t cause or force anyone else to act the way they have. Nations and people have free will. They can chose to act or react as they please. Unfortunately most of the time they choose to react negatively. When they do, somehow that is an indictment against us instead of those making the choice.

Even with WWII, you use the Nazi defense by citing the Versailles treaty for justification of their actions. You can’t even fault the Nazis for WWII. You have to twist and turn everything around the blame the non-responsible party.

9/11 was cause because we “are over there”, as Herr Doktor said. Some of your more strident cohorts don’t believe that, they believe it was caused directly by our government.

Pearl Harbor wasn’t Japan’s fault. They simply had no other recourse than to start a war because we wouldn’t give them steel or oil. Nevermind their actions in China that precipitated it.

Jerry Sandusky wasn’t really molesting kids in the shower, he was just helping them lather up with soap, which one of his lawyers actually stated as a possible defense.

FloatingRock is the only Paul supporter I remember who has stated he he doesn’t like some of his policies and has some real issues with him. He’s honest.

Some others like JG23 have gone so far today as to excuse the treatment of Jews in Iran by making the case that well, at least the let them go to church and have a kosher deli or two. Of course there’s no second Holocaust in Iran, they have a token seat in their parliament after all. And there is no slaughter of Jews in Iran, except when there is – with no charge or trial.

I’m as open minded as they come, I can’t afford not to be. I can’t afford to bury my head in the sand – for whatever reason, no matter how attractive a candidate looks or how close I meld with anyone’s particular ideology. I am my own person.

I know what truth is. Not my own ‘personal truth’ or some such nonsense. Real, honest to goodness, no bullsh!t, real-world truth.

My wife has cancer. She is going through chemotherapy. That’s truth. You can try to run from it or try to sugar coat it or ignore it or whatever. But it keeps coming back, even though we catch it early, with more and more frequency. I and my wife deal with the truth all the time. We can’t afford not to. So I live the rest of my life that way.

I don’t know why I’m saying all of this really, the words just come out. But I don’t need to be lectured about the truth.

I would ask that some of you folks really, honestly face the truth. Believe me, its hard. It’ll be one of the hardest things you’ve ever done in your life if your being honest about it.

Too many people who are speaking about ‘Truth’ have no effing clue about what they are talking about.

I apologize for the rant and didn’t want to get to personal to anyone. Sorry if I did.

Truth, as Life, means a lot to me

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 2:58 PM

The truth is that you have a party who provokes or penalizes another party and then the armchair quarterbacks act surprised when the party in question retaliates in a reckless fashion. It happened in Japan with the TOJO doctrine. It also happened in Germany. The Serbs essentially started WW2 and finally when the smoke clears, Germany is cast as the scapegoat which led to the ceding of key industrial territory as well as the abolition of a traditional defense force. Then an economic collapse hits and then everyone acts surprised when a destitute street painter from Austria ascends to the leadership of a vengeful Germany. Remember that Adolph Hitler was Time Man of the Year , yet today everyone rails at Pat Buchanan for citing the remarkable journey of someone who basically at the lowest level of society, yet somehow rose to nearly dominate the entire continent. It’s sickening and amazing at the same time.

The reoccurring morale of this ongoing story on planet earth is that actions sometimes produce negative consequences. We need to avoid from getting involved in events which create more monsters in the world, because there are far too many tyrants who come to power through normal means.

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM

One of my favorite moments in this debate came when Paul tells Bachmann that the “UN” never said any such thing, and then in the next breath says they weren’t telling the truth when they did. It provoked a few laughs from the audience and a whole avalanche of derision on Twitter. The mask well and truly slipped for Paul in this final debate.

THE FACTS: As Paul said, the report of the International Atomic Energy Agency does not state that Iran is within months of having nuclear arms. The U.N. agency report does suggest that Iran conducted secret experiments whose sole purpose is the development of nuclear weapons but did not put a time frame on when Iran might succeed in building a bomb, and it made no final conclusion on Tehran’s intent.

Bachmann also erred by arguing that Iran has “stated they will use it (a nuclear weapon) against the United States.”

So, if you have to use lies in order for you to “take someone down”, go for it. Paul is intellectually honest, while Bachmann isn’t. Gingrich called her a liar multiple times last night as well. She used to be an IRS agent for Gods sake!

ALSO MORE GOOD NEWS!

Two Recent tweets by the PPP.

#1)Ron Paul performs the best of the Republicans against Obama among independents on almost every poll we do.

#2) Ron Paul is the strongest Republican against Obama on the New Mexico Presidential poll.

ALSO MORE GOOD NEWS!

Ron Paul is holding a money bomb today and it’s already at midday OVER 1.5 million and counting. I want to thank Michelle Bachmann, HotAir, Shawn Hannity, Mark Levin, Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh for helping light a fire into the Republican, Independent and Democratic supporters for Ron Paul and the movement.

We needed this extra juice to get over the edge and win Iowa and sweep in and barely win New Hampshire.

Signed, Fat Lib.

fatlibertarianinokc on December 16, 2011 at 3:20 PM

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM

*throws up hands…*

*shakes head…*

*turns and walks away*

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 3:21 PM

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 2:58 PM

An excellent comment, prayers and best luck for your wife, I wish you both strength to face this down.

V7_Sport on December 16, 2011 at 3:21 PM

They are Islamists… Which are every bit as dangerous.

V7_Sport on December 16, 2011 at 3:13 PM

In a somewhat related note, so was the Ottoman Empire… they fell because they were so spread out and couldn’t unite their empire under a single thread of Islam. The way the Chinese united its tribes thousands of years ago was through a lot of blood and unified language — effectively strippng the subcultures of the tribes.

Can Islamic fundamentalism unite not just a small nation like Iran, but encourage neighboring countries to give up its culture to be part of, for lack of an equivalent, a “modern Ottoman Empire?” Not really sure… aside from Saudi Arabia and Iraq, there is just not enough economic production to wage any kind of aggressive war.

Would seem likely that Pakistan and Israel would wipe Iran on the earth should it be foolish enough to try to build an empire.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 3:24 PM

Ron Paul News for December 16, 2011

- Factual analysis shows Ron Paul correct on foreign policy claims
- Polls (multiple) show Ron Paul toughest in general election vs. Obama
- PPP Polling says that Ron Paul always does best among independents and would likely be tougher in a general election than Romney.

NewLiberty on December 16, 2011 at 3:24 PM

Note: Romneybots and Paulbots, please stop.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM

*throws up hands…*

*shakes head…*

*turns and walks away*

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 3:21 PM

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Newton’s third law of motion is applicable to the geopolitical realm. You need to understand this. No one is denying that there isn’t certain deranged individuals in the world with malice in their heart that wish to do others harm. However, as a people we need to be 4 steps ahead and weigh the pros & cons of any policy we embark on.

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 3:29 PM

Note: Romneybots and Paulbots, please stop.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 3:25 PM

How dare us respond to clear statements of fact by Bachmann! And I’m glad to see Romney has bots now lol

fatlibertarianinokc on December 16, 2011 at 3:30 PM

Gingrich had a better debate all the way through, but he took a few slings and arrows along the way.

It’s all just part of his outrageous fortune.

Tzetzes on December 16, 2011 at 3:30 PM

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 3:29 PM

I’m still walking away, Pitchforker.

And for the love of Pete, quite telling me what I need to understand.

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 3:40 PM

Like I’ve said earlier, Romney will defeat Obama because of independent voter turnout, not GOP turnout.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 2:51 PM

I am not disagreeing here. What I’m saying is that after he gets the nomination, David Axelrod will be in charge and just like he made Sarah Palin unelectable by using absolute lies, he has a treasure trove of real stuff to use on Romney. Why do you think every Democrat commentator out there is giving us such kind advise about who the White House really fears? I don’t believe for a nano-second that they’re doing it out of Christian charity so we’ll field the strongest candidate.

And what’s really, really bad is that Mitt’s fellow believers will be blanketing every blog–left and right–busily telling anyone who dares question their version of history and their profound knowledge of theology that they’re “haters”, all the while unknowingly confirming every prejudice out there. I can tell you the believer in this thread. They are that obvious. I can tell you the believer in a thread yesterday where I brought up the subject. They are “special” and you’d better agree or else.

I’m just warning you all. This is an issue and will be part of the general election. Me? I agree with Ann Coulter. I’d vote for Howdy Doody before I’d vote for the Marxist in Chief. But it’s a heck of a lot easier to defend Newt’s contract work than Mitt’s belief in a massive battle in upstate New York where there’s nary an arrow head left. Just imagine the discussion on man-made global warming with that “scientific” tid bit hanging over the discussion.

Portia46 on December 16, 2011 at 3:49 PM

Remember that Adolph Hitler was Time Man of the Year , yet today everyone rails at Pat Buchanan for citing the remarkable journey of someone who basically at the lowest level of society, yet somehow rose to nearly dominate the entire continent. It’s sickening and amazing at the same time.

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM

People rail at Pat ‘Hitler was a great man’ Buchanan because that faded Paleocon can’t fully suppress or disguise his unadulterated admiration for Der Fuhrer. Neither can you, although I note you added the word ‘sickening’ to the phrase ‘sickening and amazing’ to throw off suspicious types like me–a stroke of sheer genius, you sly boots. I never would’ve suspected a Ron Paul follower to share ideological kinship with the Stormfront crowd.

Presumably the good Doctor Paul shares your sympathies but has enough remaining wits about him not to broadcast those beliefs publicly.

troyriser_gopftw on December 16, 2011 at 3:50 PM

Someone correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Gingrich, in the interview with Hannity say he gave Fannie and Freddie advice on how to provide affordable housing?

I was stunned..

Gingrich gave them advice on how to bring down our economy? Yeah, I’m sure Obama won’t use that.

THIS will hurt Gingrich. Pro-war Republicans make the mistake of thinking all Republicans are as into preemptive war as they are. They’re not. There’s a split in the GOP on this issue. In fact, today there’s a poll which shows Paul is in first in South Dakota and I think you’ll begin to see more polls like this as time goes on.

There’s a split in the GOP on foreign policy and some of you need to wake up to this.

fatlibertarianinokc on December 16, 2011 at 3:54 PM

Vote Paul and strike back. He’s not pretty. He’s not smooth. He’s not right on all things but he’ll make the scumbags howl in horror.

Pitchforker on December 16, 2011 at 2:45 PM

or howl with laughter.

Video: Bachmann takes down Paul

Roy Rogers on December 16, 2011 at 3:59 PM

Ron Paul News for December 16, 2011

- Factual analysis shows Ron Paul correct on foreign policy claims
- Polls (multiple) show Ron Paul toughest in general election vs. Obama
- PPP Polling says that Ron Paul always does best among independents and would likely be tougher in a general election than Romney.
- Denys existance of Iranian nuclear weapons capability

NewLiberty on December 16, 2011 at 3:24 PM

FIFY

Roy Rogers on December 16, 2011 at 4:03 PM

Michele Bachmann wins submission of the night with her kimura on Ron Paul.

apocalypse on December 16, 2011 at 4:07 PM

“The Civil Rights Act of 1964 not only violated the Constitution and reduced individual liberty; it also failed to achieve its stated goals of promoting racial harmony and a color-blind society”. ~ Ron Paul

The surveyors say they may have run into some quicksand up ahead. Better check it out.

Roy Rogers on December 16, 2011 at 4:19 PM

Portia46 on December 16, 2011 at 3:49 PM

Very well stated… Romneybots make Romney look horrible as they themselves don’t really know where he stands on issues.

To emphasize your warning, I do think Romney is very vulnerable from a few angles:

1) The Axelrod machine will engage in the worst campaign on religion in the history of US politics. He’ll splice comments from well known GOP members about Mormonism, have interviews about the practices… it’s a predictable and unfair smear.

2) I firmly believe that the underpinnings of the Occupy movement will prevent any youth momentum towards Romney… this does expose Romney’s perceived advantage among independents. I’d guess the TeamSters, the DNC, and Dem base SuperPac will be sponsoring many many astroturf OWS protests to keep this section energized.

3) The third party threat. Both Obama and Romney will be taking in millions of dollars of donations from big banks and what the populace perceives as the reason behind the recession. Romney will not have the luxury of distancing himself this.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 4:43 PM

That said, while his isolationism is a laudable goal, it’s like communism. It looks good on paper, but in reality just doesn’t work. Isolationism worked for the US over a hundred years ago because of the state of the world at that time. We were not a world power at that time.

Logus on December 16, 2011 at 9:27 AM

Good point. Pre 20th century, we weren’t a big target, we weren’t envied, and since world trade is no longer a matter of sending ships on months-long voyages, more countries conduct a greater percentage of their trade abroad. And we’ve just been the leader in that respect.

I don’t think there is much of a constitutional mandate for pre-20th century isolationism, and I don’t think it makes sense in a modern world for a prosperous country.

Axeman on December 16, 2011 at 5:00 PM

I like Bachmann, but she and other republicans are bought for by the military industrial complex plus AIPAC.

Only Ron Paul listens to the troops and CIA.

You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8NhRPo0WAo

ProtectDefend on December 16, 2011 at 5:02 PM

I firmly believe that the underpinnings of the Occupy movement will prevent any youth momentum towards Romney… this does expose Romney’s perceived advantage among independents. I’d guess the TeamSters, the DNC, and Dem base SuperPac will be sponsoring many many astroturf OWS protests to keep this section energized.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 4:43 PM

I think the Democratic Party via its union surrogates attempted to co-opt OWS and exploit its energy for their own advantage, both now and during the general election, but I think they failed miserably. For one thing, OWS degenerated right away into anarchy and disarray, in part because many of its prime movers were/are anarchists who like anarchy and disarray, but the optics are terrible, unlikely to shape positive public perceptions. For another, it’s highly questionable the youth vote will be swayed one way or another by a combination of indecipherable messaging and bad hygiene.

I have two teenagers. My voting age son, a senior in high school, is largely apolitical: music and girls and that’s pretty much it. My daughter is a bleeding heart liberal college girl, very politically engaged. She finds the whole OWS protest spurious. What are they for? What does it solve? Poop? Urine? Communists? Ick.

That sort of thing. Although I’m only presenting anecdotal evidence, I tend to think my children are at least somewhat representative, and OWS impact on the youth vote, in my view, will be minimal.

troyriser_gopftw on December 16, 2011 at 5:10 PM

Can people stop with conspiracy theories. Have you guy found any wmd in Iraq yet?

Gall on December 16, 2011 at 5:12 PM

I’ve had all I can take from Bachmann. She’s like a holier-than-thou, life size, wind-up Chatty Cathy doll who rarely thinks before she goes off on her next over-the-top, emotional rant.

jan3 on December 16, 2011 at 5:21 PM

jan3 on December 16, 2011 at 5:21 PM

Who would be an example of an ‘evangelical’ you could take?

listens2glenn on December 16, 2011 at 5:33 PM

Can people stop with the DNC talking points from 2007?

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 5:34 PM

Considering Ron Paul gets the most troop donations, I think he is on solid footing on foreign policy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8NhRPo0WAo

NewLiberty on December 16, 2011 at 5:41 PM

Your link is not a reliable source.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 3:09 PM

You didn’t read it. He’s using published Pentagon numbers as part of his sources.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 5:50 PM

In regard to all this talk of Ron Paul being the End-All and Be-All in our decisions regarding war:

Congress is the branch invested with the power to declare war. They can do so despite a President’s desires, and then hold him accountable if he does not fulfill his responsibility as commander-in-chief. They can even remove he and his cabinet from office.

To me, if the system were working properly – which is precisely what Paul wants – then this whole concocted matter regarding Paul’s supposedly being ‘a dove’ would be a non-issue.

Think about it.

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 5:54 PM

Paul is a nut, and so are his supporters.

madmonkphotog on December 16, 2011 at 5:55 PM

Read your Constitution, people.

All I heard last night was MORE WAR, now with Iran.

I’ve reflected on this a lot. I’m not going to go into detail right now because I don’t have time, but I plan on putting my thoughts down on paper later.

Sometimes, I think we may be looking at this too closely to be able to see the big picture, and are forgetting the events of the last 50 years as well as the 100 years before that, and also what consequences that any action we undertake now will have over the course of the next several decades.

All of these things need to be taken into consideration…and not just the current passions of the moment. This is why I agree with Paul, because he IS looking at the big picture and not just his 4 year term as President. How did we get here? Do we bear any responsibility? Is there anything we could change that would alter the course of history and avoid war?

Iran has been sitting on the table and listed as an ‘imminent’ threat since at least circa 1995 in various Washington think-tanks populated by a number people who ended up in the Bush administration that pushed us into Iraq.

This matter deserves an open debate before Congress and if found to be a legitimate threat to our national security, then a declaration of war.

I am not for a brand new Executive bound from the get-go to war. ——–

“The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, & most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care, vested the question of war in the Legislature. But the Doctrines lately advanced strike at the root of all these provisions, and will deposit the peace of the Country in that Department which the Constitution distrusts as most ready without cause to renounce it. For if the opinion of the President not the facts & proofs themselves are to sway the judgment of Congress, in declaring war, and if the President in the recess of Congress create a foreign mission, appoint the minister, & negociate a War Treaty, without the possibility of a check even from the Senate, untill the measures present alternatives overruling the freedom of its judgment; if again a Treaty when made obliges the Legislature to declare war contrary to its judgment, and in pursuance of the same doctrine, a law declaring war, imposes a like moral obligation, to grant the requisite supplies until it be formally repealed with the consent of the President & Senate, it is evident that the people are cheated out of the best ingredients in their Government, the safeguards of peace which is the greatest of their blessings.” – James Madison

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 5:56 PM

Paul is a nut, and so are his supporters.

madmonkphotog on December 16, 2011 at 5:55 PM

No. You just haven’t thought this through. Read my last two posts.

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 5:57 PM

I have two teenagers. My voting age son, a senior in high school, is largely apolitical: music and girls and that’s pretty much it. My daughter is a bleeding heart liberal college girl, very politically engaged. She finds the whole OWS protest spurious. What are they for? What does it solve? Poop? Urine? Communists? Ick.

That sort of thing. Although I’m only presenting anecdotal evidence, I tend to think my children are at least somewhat representative, and OWS impact on the youth vote, in my view, will be minimal.

troyriser_gopftw on December 16, 2011 at 5:10 PM

Point very well taken. I have a hard time reading the tea leaves on that for sure.

I think the biggest mistake we can make is to expect any movement or uprising to have specific endpoints in mind. Your children are very smart and are asking the right questions: “Why” and “What for”. I can sense a generic and real anger about income and wealth disparity — and it’s not a sense that specific laws were broken, but somehow the outcome was unjust. To that, there is no ‘What for’ or ‘Why’ to answer, but the anger still remains.

It’s the generic anger that spawned the non-astroturf part of Occupy Wall Street that is concerning, not the efforts to parameterize nor usurp it.

mrkurtz on December 16, 2011 at 6:15 PM

In addition to the above posts:

If Iran is truly as dangerous as many of the GOP candidates say it is, they shouldn’t wait until 2012. Congress should declare war now. Why isn’t Bachmann or Gingrich or Santorum proposing that? Just pandering? Or waiting for the war propaganda to run its course?

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 6:19 PM

NewLiberty on December 16, 2011 at 5:41 PM

As a military retiree and disabled vet I can honestly say that ad is the most horrendous piece of agitprop i’ve seen in a long time.

More of the same old Truther, anti-war, war for oil, its all our fault pap and using vets to shield it.

Horrible.

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 6:22 PM

Horrible.

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 6:22 PM

Though the history of what we have done there is true.

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 6:24 PM

Paul is a nut, and so are his supporters.

madmonkphotog on December 16, 2011 at 5:55 PM

Paul is the Proto Nut, his Ron bots are mere acorns.

Of course they deny it, the truth hurts. BOOYAH!

Roy Rogers on December 16, 2011 at 6:28 PM

Though the history of what we have done there is true.

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 6:24 PM

Ron bots carry mice in their pockets for luck.

Roy Rogers on December 16, 2011 at 6:29 PM

In addition to the above posts:

If Iran is truly as dangerous as many of the GOP candidates say it is, they shouldn’t wait until 2012. Congress should declare war now. Why isn’t Bachmann or Gingrich or Santorum proposing that? Just pandering? Or waiting for the war propaganda to run its course?

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 6:19 PM

Especially Bachmann since she can introduce a bill for a declaration of war. It’s nothing but pandering by the War Party to the people who have been softened and conditioned for war over the past 50 years.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 6:42 PM

bmowell on December 16, 2011 at 6:24 PM

Let’s forget about what you call “the history of what we’ve done there.”

Its a disingenuous portrayal made to look as if vets (most if not all) are against the war and believe in the conspiracist crap from 9/11 onward.

Of course there are some who do believe that, but not many or most – by any stretch.

Thats why I called it agitprop.

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 7:10 PM

Your link is not a reliable source.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 3:09 PM

You didn’t read it. He’s using published Pentagon numbers as part of his sources.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 5:50 PM

Not that you could know one way or another, but I read it.

The author, with an obvious bias and agenda, who managed to get a little noticed blog article “published” on a second rate Asian foreign “news” web site, used “published Pentagon numbers” as “part part of his sources”.

And yet many others who have access to and have also read “published Pentagon numbers” do not agree.

Get back to me when he discloses his list of over a thousand “bases” with associated verifiable facts, such as the names, the locations, and the stated purpose/function of the bases/installations, along with the number of military personnel stationed there on a reasonably permanent basis.

On second thought, don’t bother. I’m sure if Ron Paul gets the nomination we’ll hear all about it and the list will be closely examined, analyzed, and critiqued. I’ll wait.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 7:17 PM

Not that you could know one way or another, but I read it.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 7:17 PM

Now that is heavy irony given your comments that began this back and forth in the first place.

And yet many others who have access to and have also read “published Pentagon numbers” do not agree.

Get back to me when he discloses his list of over a thousand “bases” with associated verifiable facts, such as the names, the locations, and the stated purpose/function of the bases/installations, along with the number of military personnel stationed there on a reasonably permanent basis.

Well, then. I’ve provided a link with Pentagon-provided numbers. Where is yours?

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 8:00 PM

Thats why I called it agitprop.

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 7:10 PM

The Cold War called.

They’d like their lingo back.

JohnGalt23 on December 16, 2011 at 8:04 PM

People rail at Pat ‘Hitler was a great man’ Buchanan because that faded Paleocon can’t fully suppress or disguise his unadulterated admiration for Der Fuhrer. Neither can you, although I note you added the word ‘sickening’ to the phrase ‘sickening and amazing’ to throw off suspicious types like me–a stroke of sheer genius, you sly boots. I never would’ve suspected a Ron Paul follower to share ideological kinship with the Stormfront crowd.

Presumably the good Doctor Paul shares your sympathies but has enough remaining wits about him not to broadcast those beliefs publicly.

troyriser_gopftw on December 16, 2011 at 3:50 PM

Hitler was most definitely a ‘great’ man. The fact that we still reference this guy and his regime ad nauseum is evidence of that. He was certainly evil. By committing the crimes and rabid conquests of Europe he gave the left endless propaganda against conservatism and nationalism that has transformed these healthy American ideals into mere shadows of what they once were.

Pat Buchanan recognizes this. He does not praise Hitler as a man to admire or aspire to be at all. Read his book before accusing people of being Nazis. A clear tactic of the left. The main argument of his WWII book is that our involvement, as well as Great Britain’s, in WWI led to the rise of Hitler. Neocons are the red headed step children of the progressive movement so I guess it isn’t too out of character for you to fling baseless accusation against those you are ignorant of and do not understand.

Jerry Bear on December 16, 2011 at 8:18 PM

JohnGalt23 on December 16, 2011 at 8:04 PM

If the shoe fits and all that…

catmman on December 16, 2011 at 8:50 PM

And yet many others who have access to and have also read “published Pentagon numbers” do not agree.

Get back to me when he discloses his list of over a thousand “bases” with associated verifiable facts, such as the names, the locations, and the stated purpose/function of the bases/installations, along with the number of military personnel stationed there on a reasonably permanent basis.

Well, then. I’ve provided a link with Pentagon-provided numbers. Where is yours?

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 8:00 PM

Your link to “Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan” did not cite specific “Pentagon provided numbers”. Your link counts aircraft carriers as military bases.

If you can, post the “Pentagon published numbers” supporting the author’s claims.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 8:53 PM

Your link to “Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan” did not cite specific “Pentagon provided numbers”. Your link counts aircraft carriers as military bases.

If you can, post the “Pentagon published numbers” supporting the author’s claims.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 8:53 PM

I thought you read the article? Did you also not read the part where I asked you to provide a link?

From the article that you say you’ve read:

“Several years ago, after mining the Pentagon’s own publicly-available documents, Johnson wrote, “[T]he United States maintains 761 active military ‘sites’ in foreign countries. (That’s the Defense Department’s preferred term, rather than ‘bases,’ although bases are what they are.)”

Recently, the Pentagon updated its numbers on bases and other sites, and they have dropped. Whether they’ve fallen to the level advanced by Kristof, however, is a matter of interpretation. According to the Department of Defense’s 2010 Base Structure Report, the US military now maintains 662 foreign sites in 38 countries around the world.”

The article further goes on talking about the number of bases in Afghanistan, and how that number keeps changing with each conversation with the US-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

It’s a tired tactic to go after the site or the publication rather than the content. Let’s see you dispute the content instead of trying to pooh-pooh the name of the publication/website.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 9:12 PM

“…the US military now maintains 662 foreign sites in 38 countries around the world”…

The article further goes on talking about the number of bases in Afghanistan, and how that number keeps changing with each conversation with the US-led International Security Assistance Force (IS”

Nice try. Note the use of the word “sites”, not “bases”. What is a “site”? And where is the full context of the claim/quote?

Every FOB in a war zone like Afghanistan, or Iraq, is not a permanent or semi-permanent base we are committed by treaty and/or act of Congress to maintain. Counting such “sites” as “bases” is roughly the equivalent of calling every few foxholes in WW II a “base”.

Your link to an obscure article posted on “Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan” remains unreliable, no matter how much the author quote mines and misrepresents “published Pentagon numbers”.

I want to see a “base” list that includes the names, the locations, and the numbers and types of military personnel stationed in each “base” on a reasonably permanent basis.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 9:50 PM

And yet you still don’t provide any sources of info yourself.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 9:55 PM

Honestly, Bachmann and Paul both made some valid points.

As far as Huntsman goes – I thought he did rather well, not sure why the hate on him. Since Newt has become the frontrunner, Jon has managed to appear as the intellectual who is above the fray, not involved in any direct attacks with anyone else. I know he worked for and with Obama, but I don’t disqualify him for that. I like him better than Santorum, Romney, Perry and Bachmann in all seriousness.

Freeloader on December 16, 2011 at 10:41 PM

And yet you still don’t provide any sources of info yourself.

Dante on December 16, 2011 at 9:55 PM

Nor have you, who made the original claim, other than an obscure article published by an obscure biased blogger on an obscure foreign internet site — “Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan”.

farsighted on December 16, 2011 at 10:43 PM

Gall on December 16, 2011 at 10:37 AM

The kapos of Nutrei Kartei don’t qualify as Jews.

annoyinglittletwerp on December 17, 2011 at 12:20 AM

Ron Paul is utterly clueless when it comes to foreign policy. Why does he keep running for POTUS, whose main duty is foreign policy? (not that you’d know it from Obama’s focus for the last 3 years).

disa on December 17, 2011 at 10:03 AM

People rail at Pat ‘Hitler was a great man’ Buchanan because that faded Paleocon can’t fully suppress or disguise his unadulterated admiration for Der Fuhrer. Neither can you, although I note you added the word ‘sickening’ to the phrase ‘sickening and amazing’ to throw off suspicious types like me–a stroke of sheer genius, you sly boots. I never would’ve suspected a Ron Paul follower to share ideological kinship with the Stormfront crowd.

Presumably the good Doctor Paul shares your sympathies but has enough remaining wits about him not to broadcast those beliefs publicly.

troyriser_gopftw on December 16, 2011 at 3:50 PM

So now we’re going to be paralyzed by political correctness in that we can’t have an adult conversation about Hitler’s meteoric rise from gutter? I thought overreaction was the left’s domain.

Troy, you’re frankly salivating for blood against Paleos for some reason when a large majority certainly don’t admire National SOCIALISTS! Let’s say it slow for those with reading comprehension issues. NA-SHA-NAL SO-SHALL-ISTS!Now if you want to call me neoconfederate I don’t really take issue with that so much. But Nazi sympathizer?!? Hell no.

Pitchforker on December 17, 2011 at 11:58 AM

But Nazi sympathizer?!? Hell no.

Pitchforker on December 17, 2011 at 11:58 AM

So Paul takes campaign money from a known white supremacist, refuses to return it, but he’s not a Nazi Sympathizer? He goes on Truther radio shows, run by truthers, to talk about truther type conspiracy stuff, and he’s not a truther? He writes racist newsletters in his own name with anti-black propaganda but he’s not a racist?

What is it like living in your world?

Logboy on December 17, 2011 at 1:16 PM

Agreed. It is absolutely disgusting. And he’s been doing it since the beginning when he sent that bigot pastor out to call the LDS faith a cult.

csdeven on December 16, 2011 at 11:29 AM

You are saying Rick Perry consulted with that pastor and told him what to say? Is that really true?

cptacek on December 17, 2011 at 1:55 PM

Obviously it’s hard to say if Gov. Perry will move up further in the polls but one thing is certain, Mrs. George Will is worth every penny he’s paying her and she’ll benefit in the future from his improvement. Good for Gov. Perry for working so hard.
Cindy Munford on December 16, 2011 at 10:12 AM

What does this mean?

cptacek on December 17, 2011 at 1:56 PM

Ron Paul’s foreign policy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8NhRPo0WAo

cavalier973 on December 17, 2011 at 7:42 PM

Every time I hear the name of Ron Paul, I can’t help but think of Alex Jones’ documentary masterpiece Ace was kind enough to embed on AoS, ‘Endgame’.

I tell you, it changed my life. Dr. Paul featured prominently, of course, but that was just the icing on the cake. The important stuff was deep inside and when The Awful Truth was revealed, my whole world was shaken to the core. Years of false consciousness embedded into my cerebral cortex by the Illuminati were stripped away, and I was whole.

I’m talking about spider/goat DNA hybridization experiments, of course, mentioned specifically (if only too passingly) in Alex Jones’ riveting masterpiece: conducted by diabolical scientists in the employ of the Bilderburgers, these evil henchmen in white lab coats are even now creating a super-race of spider-goats, ready to use steel-like fibers to enwrap their unsuspecting human prey in horrifying cocoons of death. But now that I know about their sinister machinations, what to do?

There is only one man up to the task, and that man is Dr. Ron Paul. Now is his time, his moment.

Vote for Dr. Ron Paul and eliminate once and for all the threat posed by the voracious spider-goat hordes.

troyriser_gopftw on December 17, 2011 at 9:28 PM

By committing the crimes and rabid conquests of Europe he [Hitler] gave the left endless propaganda against conservatism and nationalism that has transformed these healthy American ideals into mere shadows of what they once were.

Jerry Bear on December 16, 2011 at 8:18 PM

American conservatism and nationalism were not magically transmogrified into shadows, vestiges, or hollow shells of anything by the slaughter of millions of people by the Third Reich. Hitler and his murderous band of gangsters did, however, thoroughly destroy the credibility of the overtly antisemitic American Firsters movement, of which Ron Paul’s particular brand of libertarianism is a direct descendant.

Buchanan is a lunatic who, like Ron Paul, disguises himself a conservative Republican in order to pass for a sane human being holding relatively mainstream beliefs. Both men are antisemitic conspiracy theorists and moral cripples, and it is to the shame of the Republican Party these two drooling bigots are not called out for what they are and thrown out into the darkness of the fringe where they belong.

troyriser_gopftw on December 17, 2011 at 9:43 PM

American conservatism and nationalism were not magically transmogrified into shadows, vestiges, or hollow shells of anything by the slaughter of millions of people by the Third Reich. Hitler and his murderous band of gangsters did, however, thoroughly destroy the credibility of the overtly antisemitic American Firsters movement, of which Ron Paul’s particular brand of libertarianism is a direct descendant.
Buchanan is a lunatic who, like Ron Paul, disguises himself a conservative Republican in order to pass for a sane human being holding relatively mainstream beliefs. Both men are antisemitic conspiracy theorists and moral cripples, and it is to the shame of the Republican Party these two drooling bigots are not called out for what they are and thrown out into the darkness of the fringe where they belong.

troyriser_gopftw on December 17, 2011 at 9:43 PM

If you’re too bull headed to recognize that the neoconservative wing of the GOP does not represent America’s best interests, I can’t help you. The elite are outspoken internationalists who care not for the average American or the sanctity of the Constitution. You smear and call names against people with whom you disagree because you are too close minded to see our logical point of view. The old right/paleoconservatives/libertarians, whatever you want to call us, we represent the values of the founding. Your views are hard to defend because they are plagued with inconsistencies and lack principles. Continue following the mindless talking heads at Fox News who will only lead the country to slightly slower collapse than the establishment left offers.

Jerry Bear on December 18, 2011 at 4:07 AM

Jerry Bear on December 18, 2011 at 4:07 AM

Maybe TG isn’t proud enough of his European Whiteness to see your logic.

I’m sure that’s it.

catmman on December 18, 2011 at 11:41 AM

Maybe TG isn’t proud enough of his European Whiteness to see your logic.

I’m sure that’s it.

catmman on December 18, 2011 at 11:41 AM

I suppose your right. I value my heritage, culture, and traditions of my ancestors. You neocons do not.

Jerry Bear on December 18, 2011 at 6:45 PM

I suppose your right. I value my heritage, culture, and traditions of my ancestors. You neocons do not.

Jerry Bear on December 18, 2011 at 6:45 PM

However you need to justify your racism so you can sleep at night…

Keep commenting though.

Please.

catmman on December 18, 2011 at 8:06 PM

I suppose your right. I value my heritage, culture, and traditions of my ancestors. You neocons do not.

Jerry Bear on December 18, 2011 at 6:45 PM

Tell me, Jerry, do your heritage, culture, and traditions encompass insane conspiracy theories regarding secret societies intent on world domination? No, not if your heritage, culture, and traditions are descended from the Europe of the Enlightenment, and not from the lunatic European fringe that produced The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or Mein Kampf.

There’s a strong antisemitic undercurrent running throughout the whole Ron Paul libertarian movement–an antisemitism that is distinctly un-American. Admiration for Adolf Hitler, for example, evinced by both yourself and by Pat Buchanan is completely counter to the views of the Founding Fathers, George Washington in particular, whose letter to Jewish Americans reassuring them of their place in our society serves as a model of religious tolerance and good faith.

The one commonality of every Ron Paul supporter I’ve encountered has been their susceptibility to nonsense and their absolute ignorance of history. All of you are lightweights in reasoned argument and none of you have the good sense to know you’ve been suckered.

I mean, come on: spider/goat DNA hybridization experiments conducted by the Bilderburg conspiracy? Water fluoridation as a means of mind control? Zionist Jews as the source of all evil and all wars everywhere the result of Rothschild machinations? You guys buy all that? Any of that? Seriously?

troyriser_gopftw on December 19, 2011 at 9:20 AM

Oh dear God, did you just admit the truth for all to see in public like that?

Maybe TG isn’t proud enough of his European Whiteness to see your logic.

I’m sure that’s it.

catmman on December 18, 2011 at 11:41 AM

I suppose your right. I value my heritage, culture, and traditions of my ancestors. You neocons do not.

Jerry Bear on December 18, 2011 at

Catmman I’ve been reading down this thread, and I’m sorry to read of your wife’s cancer,… She’ll be in my prayers tonight. I also agree with you entirely about the Paulbots. Wether they will admit it as much as Bear here is yet to be seen,..

and oh.. Bear.. Im as Anglo Saxon as most American’s I just don’t feel the need to belittle anothers race, or stiff arm salute when Herr Doktor goose steps in the room.

If that stings, buy a cup, you Paulbots refuse to address some rather pointed questions, but will step up to admit it’s about race and your defense of what?,.. your whiteness or something?

Do you Paulbots really think, if we know about his neonazi ties, his truther, birther friends, and his crackpot ramblings.. the MSM doesn’t? Even if you succeed in conning your way into a nomination,… never happen,.. but let’s pretend.

The minute Paul steps in front of the 60 Minutes camera, they’ll go straight to his Lew Rockwell Stormfront friends, and you’ll be deafened by the sound as his candidacy is flushed down the toilet.

You can’t win, once the MSM finds him no longer a spoiler in the GOP, but a threat to Obama, they’ll expose his every utterence that marks him a nutjob.. The saddest part, is I don’t think you guys care for a second about any of that,

it’s all about pounding your chest..

I’ve never been not proud of my heritage Bear… but it’s my American one, not some forgotten bloodline left behind in 1693 on a Liverpool dock.

I’m an American…. period.

mark81150 on December 19, 2011 at 10:46 AM

I’ve never met a Paulbot yet too, who wasn’t either, anti-semitic in the extreme, into white power, or an in general all around conspiracy lover who wouldn’t accept any source as truthful but his own…. because, you know,…pssst….

They’re all in on it and bought off..

They’ll qoute, what was it.. Asian Pacific News from Pakistan or something… hehehheehehehheee heh

really?

I could find just an obscure article from just as unknown a source to say Pixies are drilling holes in your head while you sleep.. then sit back and demand you provide links proving it aint so.

That, is arguing with a Paulbot.

mark81150 on December 19, 2011 at 10:57 AM

Mmmm I was so thrilled to get in on the last registration, still love Hotair. But did a huge wave of Paul fans slip in too? Don’t recall so many rabid Paul fans before this last week.. but maybe I was just not reading the right threads.

mark81150 on December 19, 2011 at 11:01 AM

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