Meet the lovable 10%

posted at 5:25 pm on October 28, 2011 by Tina Korbe

Boaz Reigstad is a little boy with eager eyes and a sunshiny smile who turns six this Sunday. It’s hard to see a picture of him and not smile a bit yourself. After just the briefest glimpse of the beaming child, “lovable” leaps to mind to describe him.

Reigstad also happens to have Down Syndrome. That, too, is visible in his picture — but it takes a back seat to the joy and warmth of his expression. Sadly, the apparently cheerful child is the exception to a startling rule: About 90 percent of pregnant mothers who learn their babies have Down Syndrome choose to abort. As The Blaze puts it, “That means [just] 10 percent of children are brought to term after the mother learns of the condition.”

Reigstad, then, is part of “the lovable 10 percent.”

With the help of his father, the five-year-old has captured the attention of thousands of people on Facebook, who have “liked” a picture of the little boy holding a sign that reads:

I may not be perfect, but I’m happy. I am God’s handiwork and I bear his image. I am blessed. I am the 10% of children born with Down Syndrome who survived Roe v. Wade.

Reigstad’s father, Andy, told LifeSiteNews that he took and posted the picture “to let people know that though our son is not perfect (nor are any of us), he is happy and his life is worth living.”

“We had hoped that this photo might be a small part of the tide that is turning against abortion. We wanted to speak up for those who can’t speak up for themselves.”

It’s a compelling contrast to the complaints of “the 99 percent” occupying Wall Street and other cities throughout the country. While the two “protests” — one an apologetic for the right to life, the other a convoluted cry to end crony capitalism through the redistribution of wealth — might not seem, at first glance, to pertain to one another, they matter to one another immensely, regardless of whether the OWS-ers recognize it. For, just as life is a fundamental right, so, too, is it a fundamental gift, one for which, ultimately, we can take no responsibility. While we can cooperate in bringing it about and while we most assuredly (and sadly!) can end it, we cannot, try as we might, create it out of nothing. From that simple fact alone, the seemingly proper posture from which to proceed in life is one of humility — just the opposite of the entitlement mentality we see rampant today. Ironic that so many of the same people who think government should provide its people all things out of nothing often fail to protect and defend the one gift that does arise relatively freely.

Boaz Reigstad, Down Syndrome, pro-life


Related Posts:

Breaking on Hot Air

Blowback

Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.

Trackbacks/Pings

Trackback URL

Comments

Comment pages: 1 2 3

Oh of course not, Mary. Women who have abortions never consider adoption because “Oh it would just be way too hard for me to be pregnant for 9 months, and go through a birth, only to give my child away.”

If I had a dollar for every time I’d heard that statement, I’d be rich.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:26 PM

fetuses, not babies. no need for hyperbole.

Right. “Jews, not people!” — Adolph Eichmann

itsspideyman on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

peski on October 28, 2011 at 7:17 PM

You either believe it’s a life or not. But by your answer, you’re okay with the baby being aborted up to the end of the second trimester?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

I appreciate your honesty. Personally, I consider myself both pro-choice and pro-life. Unlike many here, I don’t really have any problem with the “morning after” pill, or even very early term abortion, because I don’t consider a fetus a person at the very early stage. At some point, a line is crossed, and I’m adamantly opposed to abortion in the third trimester.

Where that line exactly is, I don’t know, but it’s somewhere in that zone for me.

The problem is that most pro-choice advocates refuse to face the fact that at some point during a pregnancy the fetus has become a baby waiting to be born, and that killing it is not a “choice”, it’s just evil.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 7:17 PM

That’s pretty much how I feel as well. Now of course the counter argument is how can you be against abortion at X weeks but for it at Y weeks? If it’s a baby at Y, it’s a baby at X. And that’s a valid argument. No easy answers to any of this.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Whether it be Downs, or a million other disorders, nobody wants to be born that way

Yeah, these people don’t exist. Who are you going to believe, the people living with the condition, or Captain Compassionate Killing?

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:28 PM

No easy answers to any of this.

Of course there is an easy answer. A new, unique human life is formed at conception. Don’t kill it.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:29 PM

You wouldn’t have considered adoption?

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:22 PM

Does anyone adopt kids with Downs?

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:29 PM

Of course there is an easy answer. A new, unique human life is formed at conception. Don’t kill it.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:29 PM

OK will you come over 8 hours a day and help me raise the unique human life?

Will you pay the medical bills?

Will you take over raising the unique human life when he/she is 40 and still needs help after I’m dead?

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:31 PM

Anti-abortion people are living in some parallel universe.

keep the change on October 28, 2011 at 7:25 PM

Aborted babies suffer excruciating pain at the time of abortion. Why do we live in a parallel universe because this troubles us? Or in fact, why do we live in a parallel universe because your opinion leads to you believe they’re not yet human. To us they are.

No you not care how they suffer?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:32 PM

By the way, you’re not going to hell – don’t believe in that stuff.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 7:17 PM

I do believe in ‘that stuff’, but I don’t believe anybody is in hell either because they had, or were an accessory to an abortion.

There only is one sin that causes a person to fall into that place ‘prepared for the devil and his fallen angels’.
And it’s not murder.

listens2glenn on October 28, 2011 at 7:32 PM

Does anyone adopt kids with Downs?

Wow. You were willing to kill your own child without doing any research on the subject at all. Amazing.

To answer your question, yes there are hundreds of people on a waiting list just waiting to adopt a child with Down Syndrome.

Further, there is an entire organization that’s sole purpose is to help kids interantional kids with DS find a home.

Check out http://www.reecesrainbow.org

Not everyone values human life as little as you do.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:33 PM

OK will you come over 8 hours a day and help me raise the unique human life?

Will you pay the medical bills?

Will you take over raising the unique human life when he/she is 40 and still needs help after I’m dead?

No no no…

They only care about it before it’s born…one day after that they will complain about giving you food stamps for their formula.

Pablo Honey on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

I’m pro-choice and I’ve never lied about it.

I had a baby recently. We did the tests. If they had come back saying the baby had Downs, it would have been aborted. About as honest as I can be.

(Yes I know, I’m going to hell, I am a horrible person, etc).

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:09 PM

Pretty gross really. You would kill your own child. The dishonesty I speak of is not your other pro deathers admission of the killing of their own kids but rather their tactics and argument. You have gotten to the point that you want to make sure the act of abortion is normal and acceptable. Ever seen the pro abortion t shirts espousing pride in abortion?

Now of course the counter argument is how can you be against abortion at X weeks but for it at Y weeks? If it’s a baby at Y, it’s a baby at X. And that’s a valid argument. No easy answers to any of this.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

I think you just gave the easy answer . What you really meant was there is not a really easy way for an honest person to find that abortion is moral.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

Aborted babies suffer excruciating pain at the time of abortion. Why do we live in a parallel universe because this troubles us? Or in fact, why do we live in a parallel universe because your opinion leads to you believe they’re not yet human. To us they are.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:32 PM

At some point yes, you’re right. At a few weeks old a fetus can’t feel pain since it is not much more than a blob of tissue. There are no nerves formed yet, hence no pain.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

Does anyone adopt kids with Downs?

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:29 PM

Yes, http://adoptamericanetwork.org/ do.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

If posts like these aggravate the pro-aborts so much that they recoil from Hot Air like vampires from garlic, post on.

Be happy, pro-aborts. We could always go this route instead.

OhioCoastie on October 28, 2011 at 7:35 PM

Does anyone adopt kids with Downs?

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:29 PM

Yes, they do. I put some links in my previous response, but I guess I had too many, so my reply went into moderation.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:35 PM

Pablo Honey on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

This is why I hate abortion debates. Makes me agree with the likes of Pablo and crr6.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:36 PM

Yes, they do. I put some links in my previous response, but I guess I had too many, so my reply went into moderation.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:35 PM

That’s good. I mean that. If the topic should come up again in the future, I will bear that in mind.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:36 PM

OK will you come over 8 hours a day and help me raise the unique human life?

Will you pay the medical bills?

Will you take over raising the unique human life when he/she is 40 and still needs help after I’m dead?

Yes.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:37 PM

No no no…

They only care about it before it’s born…one day after that they will complain about giving you food stamps for their formula.

Pablo Honey on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

Nice talking point. Like I said you pukes are a dishonest bunch. Ever hear of birthright? Hmmm Catholic churches all over the world give time , money, and food to those already born.

You’re just ugly. Again when they find that gay gene you will be come prolife.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:37 PM

They only care about it before it’s born…one day after that they will complain about giving you food stamps for their formula.

Pablo Honey on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

That’s a caricature, and you know it. Conservatives give more to charity than liberals do, by a comfortable margin.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:37 PM

At some point yes, you’re right. At a few weeks old a fetus can’t feel pain since it is not much more than a blob of tissue. There are no nerves formed yet, hence no pain.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

So what? Feeling pain is what makes you a human?

OhioCoastie on October 28, 2011 at 7:38 PM

I think you just gave the easy answer .

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

Angryed do you understand?

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:38 PM

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:31 PM

I bet she would go to those lengths if it happened to her. That’s the fair question.

My wife risked her life to carry our first child to term and deliver her naturally with little hope that the child would survive. But she held on to that one hope and accepted that child would have required a lifetime of care by us. I would trade everything I own to have child now in any manner The Lord would have given her to us.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:39 PM

So what? Feeling pain is what makes you a human?

OhioCoastie on October 28, 2011 at 7:38 PM

No feeling pain is what feeling pain is. See the post that I replied to.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:40 PM

That’s good. I mean that. If the topic should come up again in the future, I will bear that in mind.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:36 PM

Thanks! Glad to help. There are actual waiting lists of parents waiting to adopt special-needs children. And if you had had one, there are many organizations that would have stepped up to help you with everything from specialist pediatricians to finding a loving group home for your 40-year-old special-needs son or daughter after you’re gone.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:40 PM

http://birthright.org/

Free pregnancy testing
Completely confidential help
Non-judgmental and caring advice
Friendship and emotional support
Legal, medical, and educational referrals
Prenatal information
Maternity and baby clothes
Housing referrals
Social agency referrals
Information on other community services
Adoption information

Hmmm seems Pablo lies. Again I am not surprised. Dishonesty is the pro aborts best friend.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:31 PM

There is nothing wrong with putting a handicapped baby up for adoption just because it’s handicapped.
Some of my fellow pro-lifers might disagree with me on that.
But it’s still better than aborting (killing) the otherwise real live baby.

listens2glenn on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

At a few weeks old a fetus can’t feel pain since it is not much more than a blob of tissue

Until MaterniT21 comes on the market, the earliest that DS could be detected was 11 weeks.

Here’s what a child looks like at 11 weeks gestation.

Just a blob of tissue, right?

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:39 PM

{{{{hugs hawkdriver and mrs. hawkdriver}}}

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Aborted babies suffer excruciating pain at the time of abortion.

At what stage? Anti-abortion dogma says that life begins at conception, but an embryo doesn’t feel pain and has no brain for processing pain or fear. The fetus would have to be very well developed for that. If it can be proved that a fetus at a given stage can experience both pain and fear at an abortion, then abortion would be wrong. But since the dogma is not derived from compassion concerning inflicting pain or fear, but about a religious belief in the sanctity of a fertilized egg, I have little sympathy for those who would bring to term a diseased fetus to live a life they themselves would not want.

keep the change on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Amazing so many fighting to defend the ability to kill their own child.Just amazing.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM

They only care about it before it’s born…one day after that they will complain about giving you food stamps for their formula.

Pablo Honey on October 28, 2011 at 7:34 PM

Straw man. And you don’t know. I’d bet my family beats the pants off anything you’ve ever done in your community for children.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:43 PM

keep the change on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Then can you at least agree that aborting a fetus after viability (about 22 weeks, in the middle of the second trimester) is wrong?

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:43 PM

If it can be proved that a fetus at a given stage can experience both pain and fear at an abortion, then abortion would be wrong

Why?

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:43 PM

I bet she would go to those lengths if it happened to her. That’s the fair question.

My wife risked her life to carry our first child to term and deliver her naturally with little hope that the child would survive. But she held on to that one hope and accepted that child would have required a lifetime of care by us. I would trade everything I own to have child now in any manner The Lord would have given her to us.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:39 PM

Look, I’m not saying my way is the right way for everyone. The whole point of pro-CHOICE is everyone chooses what is right for them. If you don’t want to have an abortion, I won’t judge you one way or another. I don’t see why you can’t respect the other side.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

keep the change on October 28, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Straw men and linguistic gymnastics. The fact is life does begin at conception . You cannot change that. You want to define life away. Who knows it might get in the way of an orgasm.

Thanks for again helping me expose to others the radical you are.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Then can you at least agree that aborting a fetus after viability (about 22 weeks, in the middle of the second trimester) is wrong?

If you can agree to that, you’ll be morally ahead of President O’babykiller, at least.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:40 PM

Well said, Mary.

listens2glenn on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Oh and in case anyone is scared to click on my link for fear of a dead baby looking back at them, rest assured that it is just a link to a fetal drawing on Babycenter.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Then can you at least agree that aborting a fetus after viability (about 22 weeks, in the middle of the second trimester) is wrong?

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:43 PM

I can.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Now of course the counter argument is how can you be against abortion at X weeks but for it at Y weeks? If it’s a baby at Y, it’s a baby at X. And that’s a valid argument. No easy answers to any of this.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Just no answer you want to get in the way.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Now of course the counter argument is how can you be against abortion at X weeks but for it at Y weeks? If it’s a baby at Y, it’s a baby at X. And that’s a valid argument. No easy answers to any of this.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

Then can you at least agree that aborting a fetus after viability (about 22 weeks, in the middle of the second trimester) is wrong?

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:43 PM

I can.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Twist and turn. The life of a pro abort.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:46 PM

The whole point of pro-CHOICE is everyone chooses what is right for them. If you don’t want to have an abortion, I won’t judge you one way or another. I don’t see why you can’t respect the other side.

Because you’re asking us to respect your choice to kill your own child. I don’t respect people who kill their own children.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:46 PM

Years ago,,, I am old so that was a long time ago when DS children had a better survival rate, taught swimming to children and was a lifeguard.
The absolute best students were DS children. My mother, active in the swimming programe, warned me about what to expect. Didn’t happen! These children were the best behaved, most attentive children I ever taught. They didn’t try to dunk any of the less adventurous and nobody cried.

Fast forward fifty something years: Standing in the Sam’s line.
“Look Mommy, look Mommy, it’s Santa, it’s Santa.”
I can understand, get it all the time, I am a hirsute graying blonde. Just not in July so much.
The tears welled immediately upon recognizing the characteristic facial distinctions of a DS child.
The child’s mother immediately apologized.
I told her of my teen experience and these were tears of joy.
Sam’s is a long line, in the south, we actually talk to strangers, otherwise, they will always be strangers.

When Mommy feels sweet little Ginny needs to learn how to swim, she has Santa’s number.

Open The Door on October 28, 2011 at 7:47 PM

Oh how far along you were when you had chromosomal testing done on your child, Angryed?

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

I don’t see why you can’t respect the other side.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

The difference is that there is another party with an interest in the decision, and that is the baby him- or herself. “Respecting” (i.e. not objecting) to the termination of a pregnancy ignores the baby’s interest in being alive.

The word “infant” comes from the Latin infans, meaning “unable to speak”. Someone unable to speak in defense of his or her own life needs an advocate who can speak.

The will to live is in all of us. In all my life, I’ve only met one person who has ever said he should have been aborted, and there was nothing wrong with him genetically. (He was just really, really depressed.)

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

Deliberately creating more Down’s syndrome babies seems as great of an economic idea as Obamanomics. There was a good reason before we became tremendously wealthy in the 20th century, that almost all Down’s syndrome babies died in infancy. Their death in infancy is the traditional value.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

Twist and turn. The life of a pro abort.

CW on October 28, 2011 at 7:46 PM

I am twisting nothing.

I said there is a valid argument by the anti-abortion crowd. That does not mean I agree with it.

I said after 22 weeks I would be opposed to an abortion since the fetus has developed far along. Before 22 weeks (and I didn’t choose that number Mary in LA did) I would be OK with it.

Again, the counter to that is well what’s the difference between 21.999 weeks and 22.001 weeks? Well not much. And again, you have a valid argument there.

When you have a debate with someone, it doesn’t always have to be YOU ARE 100% WRONG 100% OF THE TIME!!! It is possible to disagree but be civil about it.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:49 PM

It is possible to disagree but be civil about it

No. The time has come for overturning tables. You’re arguing that it is perfectly fine for a mother to kill her child. That’s as disgusting and incivil an argument as anything in the world. It should be treated as such.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:53 PM

I can.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:45 PM

Good — that’s a start!

One thing I hope we’ll invent soon is a device that figures in the science fiction works of Lois McMaster Bujold: The “uterine replicator”, an artificial womb. If we can somehow make that work, women who have had hysterectomies, or who have a health condition that makes pregnancy inadvisable, could still have children. An unwanted baby could be transplanted into a uterine replicator and be born to adoptive parents, instead of being killed.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:53 PM

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

The life a DS baby/child/adult would lead is also a consideration. Yes, it would be tough on me as a parent. But it would be hard on him/her too. Why bring a child into the world whose life will be non-stop problems? And yes you can sugar coat it all you want and say every life is worth living. But come on, what kind of life is that? Do you honestly believe that sick kids are happy? I don’t.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:54 PM

Before 22 weeks (and I didn’t choose that number Mary in LA did) I would be OK with it.

Again, the counter to that is well what’s the difference between 21.999 weeks and 22.001 weeks? Well not much. And again, you have a valid argument there.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:49 PM

I just Googled “at what age is a fetus viable” to arrive at that number. The age of viability keeps going down, as we get better and better at saving premature babies.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:55 PM

Deliberately creating more Down’s syndrome babies seems as great of an economic idea as Obamanomics. There was a good reason before we became tremendously wealthy in the 20th century, that almost all Down’s syndrome babies died in infancy. Their death in infancy is the traditional value.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

Who is deliberately creating down syndrome babies?

balkanmom on October 28, 2011 at 7:55 PM

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:53 PM

OK fine. Then don’t talk to me about it anymore. Calling me a killer and saying I am disgusting human being won’t do much to change my mind by the way. If that’s your plan on getting people to come to your side, I suggest you find a new methodology.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:55 PM

One thing I hope we’ll invent soon is a device that figures in the science fiction works of Lois McMaster Bujold: The “uterine replicator”, an artificial womb. If we can somehow make that work, women who have had hysterectomies, or who have a health condition that makes pregnancy inadvisable, could still have children. An unwanted baby could be transplanted into a uterine replicator and be born to adoptive parents, instead of being killed.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:53 PM

That would be pretty cool.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:57 PM

I don’t see why you can’t respect the other side.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:44 PM

And I don’t see why people aren’t bothered by the fact that the baby feels great pain when it’s killed.

And what is so magical about the use of the word “choice”? By evoking it, do you get the impression that it defuses the argument by elevating any decision to some higher cause? And BTW, you have progressives right here on Hot Air that said a woman was selfish for letting herself die from cancer to bring a child into this world. Oops, she wasn’t supposed to get a choice I suppose. That’s your side talking. Pro-choice advocates like mythicknight called her selfish.

I almost get the impression that there is some sanctity pro-choice people have in making a statement that even contains the word. “Oh, they said someone got to choose. We better go home. We can’t have an effect on someone making a choice.”

What they choose will take a life. In some cases a mother will have to choose if her life is in danger. And in that case, I’d defy anyone to say she doesn’t have a right to preserve her own. But how many millions have been killed? This is a form of birth control and not much more in most cases.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:57 PM

Why bring a child into the world whose life will be non-stop problems? And yes you can sugar coat it all you want and say every life is worth living. But come on, what kind of life is that? Do you honestly believe that sick kids are happy? I don’t.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:54 PM

You forget that I personally know a woman with Down syndrome. She’s not miserable! She’s a wife and mother, with the same joys and sorrows as anyone else, and a refreshingly positive attitude. She’s a good cook and a skilled horsewoman. Her husband loves her. She’s not “sick” in any sense of the word.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 7:58 PM

Angryed, why don’t you actually go look at what individuals with DS have to say for themselves regarding if they are happy or not. You’re in for a shock.

Oh and yes, sick kids can be happy. My son has a genetic condition that has required 5 sugeries and daily shots. He’s the happiest kid I’ve ever met, but I guess I should have aborted him since I knew that he was going to have issue before I gave birth to him.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:58 PM

Calling me a killer and saying I am disgusting human being won’t do much to change my mind by the way. If that’s your plan on getting people to come to your side, I suggest you find a new methodology.

I honestly don’t care about changing your mind. Like I said, I just hope you never have another child. You came on here shamelessly bragging about the fact that you would kill your own child. If that’s not heartless, nothing is.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:00 PM

Thuja’s just taking your opinions to their logical conclusion, Angryed. Own it.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:03 PM

And I don’t see why people aren’t bothered by the fact that the baby feels great pain when it’s killed.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:57 PM

If they were born and lived a life, it would merely delay the great pain, since most likely their deaths will be quite painful–just as ours will be unless we get lucky. If you eat meat, the animals die equally painful deaths and it wouldn’t hurt you to be a vegetarian. That death is painful isn’t an objection to abortion. It’s a just fact about how things work on this planet.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:05 PM

I honestly don’t care about changing your mind. Like I said, I just hope you never have another child. You came on here shamelessly bragging about the fact that you would kill your own child. If that’s not heartless, nothing is.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:00 PM

I didn’t brag. I said I would have in reply to someone who said pro-choice people aren’t honest. So I was honest and told you what I would do. That’s all.

You’re confusing me with the people wearing I HAD AN ABORTION AND IT WAS AWESOME t-shirts. Stop looking at things in black and white. There is gray in between. I said if I were in the position of knowing I would have a DS baby, I would want to abort it. That doesn’t mean that I think abortions should be had by everyone as a form of birth control. It also doesn’t mean that if I had to do that I would have been high fiving everyone after the fact.

But I am also not about to apologize to you or anyone else for feeling the way I did.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 8:05 PM

That death is painful isn’t an objection to abortion. It’s a just fact about how things work on this planet.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:05 PM

Death may be painful, but that doesn’t make it morally right to inflict pain when we have a choice not to.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 8:06 PM

. I said if I were in the position of knowing I would have a DS baby, I would want to abort it

This is the only part of your post that matters. Yes, it is black and white. You would kill your own child. It is really, really simple. You are trying to make it more complicated to ease your mind, but you’re only lying to yourself.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM

Deliberately creating more Down’s syndrome babies seems as great of an economic idea as Obamanomics. There was a good reason before we became tremendously wealthy in the 20th century, that almost all Down’s syndrome babies died in infancy. Their death in infancy is the traditional value.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

Down Syndrome babies aren’t ‘deliberately created’ that way. It’s an imperfection (my opinion there) that we haven’t learned how to cure by means of our medical science, as currently stands.
The idea that Down Sndrome babies are going to be more liability than asset, and thereby drag the family (and ultimately society at large) down economically is exactly what Adolph Hitler thought and acted out.

listens2glenn on October 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM

You would kill your own child clump of barely developed cells with zero consciousness or cognitive ability

FTFY

mythicknight on October 28, 2011 at 8:11 PM

The idea that Down Sndrome babies are going to be more liability than asset, and thereby drag the family (and ultimately society at large) down economically is exactly what Adolph Hitler thought and acted out.

listens2glenn on October 28, 2011 at 8:07 PM

Paging Mr. Goodwin.

That’s it for me.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 8:11 PM

Thuja’s just taking your opinions to their logical conclusion, Angryed. Own it.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:03 PM

I guess one could say that my predictions about the economy are an opinion. Who knows? I could be wrong. But it is not correct to claim it’s my opinion that before the 20th century, most Down’s Syndrome died in infancy. That would be like claiming “Napolean invaded Russia” is my opinion.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:11 PM

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

Money again? Are you serious?

At this point, you’re going to have to know what a wondrous piece of work I think you are. You and others like Palbo Honey, my God. I would not be you for anything. If given the chance to win a lottery and live in the lap of luxury but be you, I’d pass. And be guaranteed a long life to enjoy it all, but have to be you, I’d pass. If I were told that if in fact I turned all of that down my fate would be an agonizing death by tractor trailer truck … I’d get my affairs together and start moving smartly down to the interstate.

You all, are to be pitied.

I just don’t understand how you can’t care about them. Is money so important?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:12 PM

Death may be painful, but that doesn’t make it morally right to inflict pain when we have a choice not to.

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 8:06 PM

So you are a vegetarian?

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:13 PM

So you are a vegetarian?

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:13 PM

I was, for about a year and a half — found out the hard way that my metabolism needs animal protein.

Meat animals don’t have to be slaughtered painfully. It’s possible to minimize the amount of pain felt by an animal. “Factory farms” don’t bother, but others do.

However, no such steps are ever taken in an abortion, even a third-trimester one. Can’t you even support the idea of administering an anesthetic before sticking the scissors into the back of the baby’s head?

Mary in LA on October 28, 2011 at 8:17 PM

A fetus is not a sentient entity. That means it does not know it exists.

keep the change on October 28, 2011 at 7:25 PM

Ah yes, keep the change. The wise sage of all wiseness. You still don’t know what sentience means do you? A two year child would fail the test for sentience. Do you advocate the murder of two year olds?

Perhaps before you struggle with adult choices you should struggle with your own ignorance.

Ergo, there is no moral reason not to terminate a fetus that will be doomed to have a mental or physical retardation that will significantly affect the quality of life. In fact, not terminating it is the selfish act, because to feel good about yourself, you condemn someone to live that life.

Why do all pro-murderous abortionist supporters use this same tired tripe to justify their heinous views? What exactly is a quality life and how is it you have the secret wisdom of what it is?

Never mind. You still don’t grasp the concept of sentience, so you are obviously just grasping with this comment as well.

NotCoach on October 28, 2011 at 8:21 PM

You either believe it’s a life or not. But by your answer, you’re okay with the baby being aborted up to the end of the second trimester?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:27 PM

I don’t believe a clump of cells moments after conception is a human life.

And no, that’s not what I said or implied. I said I’m ADAMANTLY OPPOSED to abortion in the third trimester – as an evil act tantamount to murder.

The more time that passes between those two points – a clump of cells to a nearly fully formed human baby – the less acceptable the choice to abort. A baby becomes viable somewhere in the second trimester – that certainly seems an important milestone.

For me personally, abortion probably ceases to be an acceptable option, except perhaps in the case of serious health risks to the mother, sometime in the first trimester.

What I don’t accept is the religious point of view that drives most pro-life advocates. I’m not religious, and religious dogma holds no authority with me.

I also don’t accept the pro-choice argument that it’s a woman’s body, and she alone holds the authority to make decisions about what happens in it. BS – you chose to make a baby – or at least to carry it beyond the point of no return.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 8:21 PM

OK will you come over 8 hours a day and help me raise the unique human life?

Will you pay the medical bills?

Will you take over raising the unique human life when he/she is 40 and still needs help after I’m dead?

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:31 PM

I hope the children you do have don’t become too burdensome at some point. Would hate to see them executed because it just became too dang hard to care for them.

NotCoach on October 28, 2011 at 8:23 PM

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:05 PM

At least you’re honest.

Just one question. And please answer because you’re the closest I think someone is to actually being to this point of reasoning. Considering your rational, how much of a stretch is it to believe we’re not far from deciding those who have already been born, warrant consideration as to whether they should be allowed to continue living or not. In other words, a child is born with Downs that a mother brings to term because she and her husband wanted to try to let it live. After birth, it’s health is such that it’ll deplete all they have to take care of it. Should they be allowed to euthanize the child?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:24 PM

Got into this argument with a coworker not long ago. He’s pro-choice (in the same way that he holds a number of liberal positions just because, well, that’s what the cool people do…..), and was saying that he wasn’t okay with late-term abortions. I asked him up to what point he was okay with it. He said, “Oh, you know, halfway through, when it has organs and stuff.” I looked him in the eye and said: “A fetus has a heartbeat at 6 weeks, and some studies claim as early as 5 weeks.” He suddenly looked uncomfortable and didn’t know what to say.

If you know you’re not okay with abortion after a certain point in the pregnancy, but you can’t identify that point by any scientific means, then you have to accept the fact that you may, in fact, approve of killing a fetus after it is a human. Why would you not want to play it safe and assume that it is human from conception? Just so you can get rid of it if you don’t want it after all, or you can’t care for it and therefore it doesn’t deserve a chance at life? EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THAT IS COMPASSIONATE.

I have another friend who says that the only identifiable point at which a fetus can be considered human is birth. Okay….. natural birth, or cesaerian section? Can you MAKE a baby into a human by inducing labor? How about premature babies? How can a baby born at 7 months be a human when one still in the womb at the same point is not?

Women who want to be mothers mourn miscarriages just as they mourn any loved one who dies, but there is no scientific difference between a baby miscarried at 8 weeks and one aborted at the same time. The only difference is that one is wanted and one is not: so the fetus’s humanity is essentially determined by the parent.

And this crap about it being the woman’s choice? What about the father? It’s his child, too, even though the mother is carrying it. Doesn’t he have any legal rights to protect his child, or is he without rights because the fetus isn’t really his kid, it’s just a part of the mother’s body?

CLEARLY, there’s a lot of gray area in the pro-choice case, so my question is this: do you really want to base a question as serious as life and death on so many uncertainties???

Let’s try for some moral consistency, and protect human life in all forms.

Animator Girl on October 28, 2011 at 8:27 PM

The more time that passes between those two points – a clump of cells to a nearly fully formed human baby – the less acceptable the choice to abort. A baby becomes viable somewhere in the second trimester – that certainly seems an important milestone.

That’s why I’ve always thought Roe v Wade was a particularly elegant ruling. It protected and balanced the privacy of the mother with the growing fetus inside her, and left to the states the choice of restrictions for super late term/viability/etc.

mythicknight on October 28, 2011 at 8:28 PM

Deliberately creating more Down’s syndrome babies seems as great of an economic idea as Obamanomics. There was a good reason before we became tremendously wealthy in the 20th century, that almost all Down’s syndrome babies died in infancy. Their death in infancy is the traditional value.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM

I agree. No more unemployment benefits. Gas chamber benefits for those down on their luck.

NotCoach on October 28, 2011 at 8:30 PM

I don’t believe a clump of cells moments after conception is a human life.

When is it a human?

And no, that’s not what I said or implied. I said I’m ADAMANTLY OPPOSED to abortion in the third trimester – as an evil act tantamount to murder.

And the second trimester comes before the third. I asked if you okay up to the third.

The more time that passes between those two points – a clump of cells to a nearly fully formed human baby – the less acceptable the choice to abort. A baby becomes viable somewhere in the second trimester – that certainly seems an important milestone.

But you’re not sure when. We ought to be more sure considering you concede at some point it becomes a human.

For me personally, abortion probably ceases to be an acceptable option, except perhaps in the case of serious health risks to the mother, sometime in the first trimester.

Are we ignoring the second trimester for some reason?

What I don’t accept is the religious point of view that drives most pro-life advocates. I’m not religious, and religious dogma holds no authority with me.

I know many atheists who are pro-life.

I also don’t accept the pro-choice argument that it’s a woman’s body, and she alone holds the authority to make decisions about what happens in it. BS – you chose to make a baby – or at least to carry it beyond the point of no return.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 8:21 PM

We agree here. None of us have a right to tell a woman she can’t elect to abort a child if it really means, it’s the baby or her. That a canard though. It’s rarely that. But iIn my mind, that’s the only choice that should enter into it. Anything else is killing that child for convenience.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:32 PM

I don’t believe a clump of cells moments after conception is a human life.

Then you’re an idiot. It’s a scientific fact.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:33 PM

Paging Mr. Goodwin.

That’s it for me.

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 8:11 PM

sigh. . . . . . did the best I could.

listens2glenn on October 28, 2011 at 8:36 PM

So you are a vegetarian?

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:13 PM

Let me get this straight because you’ve pointed it out twice now. Are you saying if you’re not a vegetarians, you can’t be pro-life?

Humans are not animals. Animals are not human. But lets play your game. Even slaughtered food animals are given more consideration to dispatching them humanly than a human child. A third trimester abortion, does not require administration of an anesthetic prior to the baby being turned to present the base of it’s neck to the doctor and then inserting the tube which will evacuate it’s cranial cavity.

But face it, even if the entire world was nothing but Vegans, you’d still find an excuse to make this acceptable in your mind.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:40 PM

Ergo, there is no moral reason not to terminate a fetus that will be doomed to have a mental or physical retardation that will significantly affect the quality of life. In fact, not terminating it is the selfish act, because to feel good about yourself, you condemn someone to live that life.

Also, this is really sick. You think it’s CRUEL to let a handicapped fetus live? Are you serious? And giving birth to that child, giving it a home, loving it, caring for it, and watching it grow up happy is SELFISH? Your world is so twisted, I don’t even know where to begin. To you, depriving a less-than-perfect fetus of life is a display of compassion and pity. Heaven forbid you ever unleash that compassion on any other poor sufferers….

Animator Girl on October 28, 2011 at 8:40 PM

super late term/viability/etc.

mythicknight on October 28, 2011 at 8:28 PM

“super” late term. The proponents of third trimester abortions push for no restrictions with regard to development. None. There is no such thing as “super” late term to them.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:42 PM

OK will you come over 8 hours a day and help me raise the unique human life?

Will you pay the medical bills?

Will you take over raising the unique human life when he/she is 40 and still needs help after I’m dead?

angryed on October 28, 2011 at 7:31 PM

Yes, and we already do 24/7/365. Our eldest child has a congenital disorder that causes systemic deterioration and mental retardation– and by the way, we’re an adopted family. And yes, “they told us what was wrong with him before we adopted him”. (We’re SO sick of that question.) I acknowledge that we were frequently exasperated when he was an obnoxious teenager, go figure. Love and care has never been an issue.

There are alternatives to terminating human life.

obladioblada on October 28, 2011 at 8:44 PM

Just one question. And please answer because you’re the closest I think someone is to actually being to this point of reasoning. Considering your rational, how much of a stretch is it to believe we’re not far from deciding those who have already been born, warrant consideration as to whether they should be allowed to continue living or not. In other words, a child is born with Downs that a mother brings to term because she and her husband wanted to try to let it live. After birth, it’s health is such that it’ll deplete all they have to take care of it. Should they be allowed to euthanize the child?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:24 PM

I believe in personal responsibility. If you bring the child into the world, when you were given the choice of abortion, you have the responsibility to raise the child to the best of your ability. I would hope that the Pro-Life community would be willing to aid this couple, so that their resources will not be depleted. And in honesty, I do believe that most, but not all, Pro-Life groups would help such a couple with their child.

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:47 PM

That’s right Animator Girl. There are no parents who dedicate their entire lives to their handicapped children.

Like this father. He’s selfish to have allowed this child continue. And their lives obviously have no joy or fulfillment in them.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:50 PM

Ergo, there is no moral reason not to terminate a fetus that will be doomed to have a mental or physical retardation that will significantly affect the quality of life. In fact, not terminating it is the selfish act, because to feel good about yourself, you condemn someone to live that life.

I can assure you that our son, relatives and friends who have disabilities would disagree strongly with your evaluation that their lives aren’t worth living because they don’t live up to your definition of human value.

obladioblada on October 28, 2011 at 8:53 PM

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 8:47 PM

Surprising. But a relief to know you at least feel mercy in at least this manner. But one last question and I appreciate you entertaining them. By you saying that the pro-life community should help, do you mean no one else “should” help? Would you never donate to a charity that you could reason that the child should have been aborted?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:55 PM

I don’t believe a clump of cells moments after conception is a human life.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 8:21 PM

Well, I suppose you can believe whatever you want to believe, but scientifically, it is indeed nothing else but a human life..

It is the species homo sapien and organic. It has never been proven to be anything else 100% of the time.

Saltysam on October 28, 2011 at 9:08 PM

I don’t believe a clump of cells moments after conception is a human life.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 8:21 PM

He/she is undeniably life and undeniably human. What’s really at issue is whether others can terminate him/her because he/she is inconvenient.

obladioblada on October 28, 2011 at 9:14 PM

Mary in LA Mary in LA

Stick to your guns, Mary. You are a real lady in every sense of the word. Your handling of the knee-jerk (with emphasis on the JERK) liberal “pro-choice” claptrap is impressive. Of course, you know the “pro-choice” argument is quibbling when you remember that they had to change the name of their side from “pro-abortion” to “pro-choice”, because even those so-called enlightened adults knew that the concept of abortion or killing unborn babies was a horrific crime against humanity.

Old Country Boy on October 28, 2011 at 9:16 PM

Surprising. But a relief to know you at least feel mercy in at least this manner. But one last question and I appreciate you entertaining them. By you saying that the pro-life community should help, do you mean no one else “should” help? Would you never donate to a charity that you could reason that the child should have been aborted?

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:55 PM

I view resources as finite–both the resources of the world and my own. I am careful to donate to only cause which I approve of. I find this difficult but not an impossible task given my unconventional conservative beliefs. I would urge you and everyone else to think critically before donating. For instance, consider stopping donating to higher education, which is a major source of the leftist effluvium in our society. Too many conservatives donate money to universities.
I do think the “pro-life” community should help resource-poor Downs couples, because it wants to promote the couple’s decision to have the child as a value. It’s something a little weaker than irresponsibility to promote a value, but to be unwilling to aid those who accept your idea. As I said, I would think most pro-life groups would help such a couple, because I think I share with many pro-lifers the value of personal responsibility.

I think it is time for me to relax before getting ready to sleep. Have a blessed night!

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 9:18 PM

Have a blessed night!

thuja on October 28, 2011 at 9:18 PM

I’m honestly surprised and gladdened by some things you’ve written tonight. You have a blessed night too. Sincerely.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 9:26 PM

Are we ignoring the second trimester for some reason?

No, just see it as a continuum from not a person to is a person.

What I don’t accept is the religious point of view that drives most pro-life advocates. I’m not religious, and religious dogma holds no authority with me.

I know many atheists who are pro-life.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 8:32 PM

Yeah, but most are driven by a religious viewpoint/mandate.

Perhaps you think I’m avoiding second trimester for reasons along these lines:

That’s why I’ve always thought Roe v Wade was a particularly elegant ruling. It protected and balanced the privacy of the mother with the growing fetus inside her, and left to the states the choice of restrictions for super late term/viability/etc.

mythicknight on October 28, 2011 at 8:28 PM

I completely disagree with this – Roe v Wade is a travesty. It should be overturned, and legality of any abortion should be decided on a state by state basis.

I don’t believe a clump of cells moments after conception is a human life.

Then you’re an idiot. It’s a scientific fact.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 8:33 PM

No Vera, I’m not an idiot, and neither are you. “It’s a scientific fact”? No, it’s not.

Tell me Vera, what’s the difference between a human sperm and a human egg fertilized by a sperm 20 seconds ago? Is one a person, the other not? What makes it so? Scientifically? Something tells me the Pope has your answer.

My wife risked her life to carry our first child to term and deliver her naturally with little hope that the child would survive. But she held on to that one hope and accepted that child would have required a lifetime of care by us. I would trade everything I own to have child now in any manner The Lord would have given her to us.

hawkdriver on October 28, 2011 at 7:39 PM

I love this – not your pain, but your passion. It’s very close to my feeling as well. I just don’t have the Lord thing, and I was fortunate enough to have a different result.

I am PRO LIFE. I’m just not willing to say that humanity begins when egg meets sperm and anyone who has a different view is a murderous idiot.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 9:28 PM

No Vera, I’m not an idiot, and neither are you. “It’s a scientific fact”? No, it’s not.

Tell me Vera, what’s the difference between a human sperm and a human egg fertilized by a sperm 20 seconds ago? Is one a person, the other not? What makes it so? Scientifically? Something tells me the Pope has your answer.

Yes, it is. Do you understand how human reproduction works? I am guessing no based on the fact that you don’t understand the difference between gametes and a new, unique human organism.

A sperm is a haploid cell that contains the half of the gentic material needed to form a human being. The other half is located in the egg. At amphimixis, the male and female pronuculei align and create a new, unique human being. The cell is now diploid, and contains all the necessary information for human development.

This is really very basic biology. It has nothing to do with religion.

Vera on October 28, 2011 at 9:47 PM

It’s a scientific fact”? No, it’s not.

peski on October 28, 2011 at 9:28 PM

As I understand it,

There is no data to date that exists that disproves the theory that a fertilized egg is anything other than human life.

And as far as I know,

There is no data that disproves the theory that sperm or an unfertilized egg is not a human life.

Saltysam on October 28, 2011 at 10:00 PM

Being pro-choice is intellectually, logically, and morally bankrupt.

OhioCoastie on October 28, 2011 at 10:07 PM

Comment pages: 1 2 3