Herman Cain’s “truth problem”

posted at 6:15 pm on October 23, 2011 by Jazz Shaw

gaffe also gaff n. an occurrence of someone telling the truth by accident.

One of the big topics of discussion around here over the weekend was whether or not Herman Cain has a “truth problem.” Generally, when we talk about politicians having such an issue, it’s because we catch them lying. (“BREAKING: Our top story tonight, a politician is caught telling a lie! That story coming up right after our investigative report revealing that many children like candy.”) Not so with the former Godfathers Pizza CEO. In fact, I’m hard pressed to think of an instance thus far where I could even say he’s been “bending the truth” apart from expressing opinions you may disagree with.

No, the discussion I was dragged into centered on a different sort of problem. It seems to me that there is a growing body of evidence which indicates that Herman Cain has a propensity to take pretty much any question from any reporter and just shoot from the hip with a truthful answer. It is only after the fallout from his answers begins that he seems to notice the potential damage he’s doing to his campaign and he embarks on a series of “clarifications” to make the answer more palatable to primary voters. This, in turn, provides red meat for his opponents to begin swinging at him and rather weak tea talking points for his supporters to try to defend his statements.

One of the most recent – and certainly most toxic – examples has been his series of puzzling answers on the abortion question. And let’s be honest here… who could possibly consider running for the Republican presidential nomination and not know that one was coming? I’ve heard the defenses being put forward, but frankly none of them make as much sense as the conclusion that Cain simply wasn’t ready for the question. Let’s go back once again and look at the precise answer he originally gave to Piers Morgan. (Emphasis mine for this particular question.)

No, it comes down to is, it’s not the government’s role — or anybody else’s role — to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is, it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make. Not me as president. Not some politician. Not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t try to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive decision.

I’m sorry, but it doesn’t get much more clear than that. It’s a choice. It’s not the government’s business. But the excrement hit the fan, so to speak, and he wound up putting the campaign car in reverse and flooring the gas. First he tried to claim he didn’t fully understand the question, implying that he was only saying that he wouldn’t try to directly prevent abortions by executive fiat as president. (A silly argument, requiring us to believe the thought it was possible to do so or that the reporter and the voting public might have thought so.) Then he said that it should be illegal, but some families might choose to break the law anyway. (How it becomes illegal without the government being involved is something of a puzzler.) And now he’s saying that he would push for a constitutional amendment to make it illegal and would use the POTUS bully pulpit to push legislation to ban it. Sure sounds like the government being involved to me.

Related: Cain even went so far this weekend as to say, regarding such an amendment to the constitution, “… if it comes to my desk, I’ll sign it.” (Well. OK, then.)

This isn’t the only example, of course. He did the same thing on the electric fence, which was absolutely just a joke and not a policy position. Unless, a few hours later, you’d like it to be a policy position, in which case it might be. Because, you know… he doesn’t want to offend anyone.

That’s what led me to the conclusion yesterday that Herman Cain doesn’t have a problem with not knowing the issues or with lying. What he does have is an unfortunate propensity to just blurt out the truth without seeming to realize what it will do to his political fortunes. If there’s a flaw here, it’s that he can’t just stick by his original assertion and defend it boldly. He backpedals and tries to please everyone. If Cain honestly thinks that abortion is wrong but that it’s not the federal government’s place to get involved, he should make that case and stick by it.

This led one of my friends – a newly minted Cain supporter – to drop me a line after she’d had time to consider my argument. It included the following:

Maybe you don’t realize in your analytical little brain how offensive it sounds when you say that. Here’s what I hear you saying: Herman Cain shouldn’t be elected because he wasn’t smart enough to figure out what to lie about ahead of time.

Kind of harsh, but I had to admit that maybe that’s what I was saying. Cain wants to be president, but before you can hold that office you have to be a politician first. (And a darn good one at that.) Perhaps Cain would excel at the job as leader of the free world. But he’s not shining at the necessary task of being a good enough politician to get there. Assuming that many of these initial bits of truth telling are how he really feels about these issues, either Herman Cain has to figure out how to win the nomination while espousing positions which are unpopular with the base, or … (deep breath) .. he should have figured out how to lie about it more convincingly in the first place.

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Great. Another thread about abortion. What a waste of space.

It’s the economy stupid, err Jazz.

exdeadhead on October 23, 2011 at 6:23 PM

I said this the other day, but he’s a businessman hawking a product. The product is gaining traction in the marketplace and he’s trying to maximize its audience by tweaking the marketing.

It’s what he’s been doing his whole life – packaging products to an ever-widening audience.

beatcanvas on October 23, 2011 at 6:24 PM

I have been worried also about Cain’s ‘shoot-from-the-lip’ style, and all the answers he has had to run back after they caused an uproar in the biased press.

He is certainly giving both Obama and his journalist lap-dogs a lot to sink their teeth into if he does in fact become the Republican nominee.

Siddhartha Vicious on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM

It would be nice if Herman sat down and reasoned out responses to all of these questions long before a reporter asked them.

Reporters are, after all, going to concentrate on the wedge issues.

What I got out of the whole abortion thing is that Mr. Cain is silently pro-choice at the personal level. That doesn’t mean he thinks the state should pay for abortions, but it puts him firmly in the Romney circle of the Venn Diagram.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM

Addendum to what I said above:

He believes in the product he’s hawking. He doesn’t want to change it. He does, however, want to change your perception of it so that you’ll buy it.

beatcanvas on October 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Help Obi Wan Gingrich, you are our next Not-Romney

phreshone on October 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

I think your female friend is wrong Jazz.

Your argument is … that Herman Cain holds some fairly liberal ideas and blurts those out when he’s asked questions he’s not ready for …

And then he has to go back and cover up those answers for Conservatives.

It’s an interesting theory – but then again – if it’s correct – it puts Herman Cain OUTSIDE the main stream of the conservative GOP.

HondaV65 on October 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Cain’s position on abortion mirrors mine. Don’t care how he muddied it afterwords. Too bad he has to play these semantic games. Speak your opinion, stick by it,and you will do fine.
He has my vote still.

redshirt on October 23, 2011 at 6:27 PM

Cain’s answer on negotiating with terrorists and releasing Gitmo prisoners was worse than a gaffe, it was atrocious.

His answer on abortion is less so because the whole debate has already been framed by the Left as being either “pro-life” or “pro-choice,” when it should be “pro-life” or “pro-abortion.”

RedRedRice on October 23, 2011 at 6:27 PM

It’s the economy stupid, err Jazz.

exdeadhead on October 23, 2011 at 6:23 PM

In a Republican world where everyone is saying the same thing on the jobs and economy issues — less government — abortion becomes a discriminator, as does immigration and a whole bunch of secondary topics which are wedge issues.

The only reason Cain doesn’t have hands at least partly encrusted in pork fat is because he’s never held public office. I doubt that his spotless record would last were he to become President. In order for it to do so, he would have to veto practically every bill that came before him — or have a Congress comprised entirely of Tea Partiers.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:30 PM

Addendum to what I said above:

He believes in the product he’s hawking. He doesn’t want to change it. He does, however, want to change your perception of it so that you’ll buy it.

beatcanvas on October 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Jazz’s point is that Cain was hawking a PRO-CHOICE product and that is what he is at heart – PRO CHOICE …

But then, he realizes that’s he’s running for the nomination of the GOP – not the Dimmocrits – and goes back and “rearranges” his answer to make it palatable to GOP voters.

In other words – he told the truth that he was “PRO CHOICE” then … “OMG – no I didn’t say that … I’m PRO LIFE”.

Jazz is free to clarify if I have this wrong.

But, in actuality – I don’t believe the theory Jazz is proposing. Cain’s not shifting his positions here to make them palatable.

His answers are inconsistent because Cain is not very smart.

He’s Pro-Life – he’s just incapable, intellectually- of articulating that.

HondaV65 on October 23, 2011 at 6:31 PM

Jazz, I’m not sure what your big deal is about Cain but certainly his main focus continues to be about the economy and how to go about creating jobs. Real jobs and not jobs created via through increased regulations a la EPA. Along with taxation and independent energy issues when the U.S. has the richest energy deposits of oil & gas in the world. Putting a magnifying glass over Cain’s remarks isn’t going to do much except perhaps make you look a bit of a cynical person and all that jazz, pun intended.

Kokonut on October 23, 2011 at 6:31 PM

Herman’s issues have come from his honesty, that’s not such a bad thing.

So far as the abortion thing goes he obviously doesn’t want any abortions but as many Conservatives have found there’s no clause in our Constitution that says yea or nay. What that says is its an individual or a states issue.

Speakup on October 23, 2011 at 6:31 PM

It’s an interesting theory – but then again – if it’s correct – it puts Herman Cain OUTSIDE the main stream of the conservative GOP.

HondaV65 on October 23, 2011 at 6:26 PM

Sure. But Romneycare apparently doesn’t concern voters, nor does the Gardasil Putsch. Sure. That’s prefectly INSIDE the mainstream of the “conservative” GOP. Okay…

gryphon202 on October 23, 2011 at 6:32 PM

His answer on abortion is less so because the whole debate has already been framed by the Left as being either “pro-life” or “pro-choice,” when it should be “pro-life” or “pro-abortion.”

RedRedRice on October 23, 2011 at 6:27 PM

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, what does “Choice” really mean?

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:32 PM

when it should be “pro-life” or “pro-deathabortion.”

RedRedRice on October 23, 2011 at 6:27 PM

IIWII

darwin-t on October 23, 2011 at 6:33 PM

What I got out of the whole abortion thing is that Mr. Cain is silently pro-choice at the personal level. That doesn’t mean he thinks the state should pay for abortions, but it puts him firmly in the Romney circle of the Venn Diagram.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM

I think that’s a fair interpretation…

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 6:35 PM

Anybody but Romney.

rrpjr on October 23, 2011 at 6:36 PM

He has my vote still.

redshirt on October 23, 2011 at 6:27 PM

You must be independently wealthy with a large some of money in an off-shore bank account to say that, Redshirt — it’s obvious you want to give Obama another four years in office.

Do you really think Herman Cain can beat smooth-talking Obama, who will have one billion dollars and the media, and who also got Bin Laden and now Qaddafi? Will you really and honestly put this fool up against Obama? Not everyone is charmed with Herb’s pizza company credentials or his BS act when he is up on stage. Some of us actually look for substance in a President and not just cheap revival-esque speechifying.

Vote wisely.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

What I got out of the whole abortion thing is that Mr. Cain is silently pro-choice at the personal level. That doesn’t mean he thinks the state should pay for abortions, but it puts him firmly in the Romney circle of the Venn Diagram.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM

I think that’s a fair interpretation…

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 6:35 PM

So Romney’s nomination is not a fait accompli? Or did I miss something?

gryphon202 on October 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

So he’s too gosh darned truthful, and how dare you characterize his subsequent contradictory statements/clarification/reversals as calculated political spin?

Everyone actually likes politicians who shoot from the hip. We have a strong sense that whatever you say first is what you really think. Say it with conviction. If you feel the need to come back later and paper over your convictions with a flurry of conflicting subsequent statements, our view of you as a straight shooter goes straight to hell.

Cain doesn’t think on his feet all that well, is what this comes down to. He’s trying very hard to have a sharp response to every question, but even on easily predictable issues, he’s tying himself into a pretzel and committing unforced errors. I’ll be happy enough if Cain is the nominee, but he really needs to get a better game, and quickly.

TexasDan on October 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

I’m sorry, but it doesn’t get much more clear than that. It’s a choice. It’s not the government’s business.

Ah, but if the Government is in the business of guaranteeing individual freedom, then it is indeed the Government’s business.

Leaving a determination of a person’s humanity (their right to life) to another person really cuts to the the core of what the 13th Amendment was all about, and Roe v. Wade becomes analogous to the Fugitive Slave Laws of the 1850s.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

What I got out of the whole abortion thing is that Mr. Cain is silently pro-choice at the personal level. That doesn’t mean he thinks the state should pay for abortions, but it puts him firmly in the Romney circle of the Venn Diagram.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM

I think that’s a fair interpretation…

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 6:35 PM

me too.

TexasDan on October 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

This is the biggest difference between 1) Cain, 2) all the rest of the Republican candidates, and 3) any Democrat you’d care to mention and Sarah Palin. In the three-plus years she’s been on the national scene, I’ve never heard her say anything that could be construed as politically expedient double-talk and she’s had plenty of chances to do so. Now you may not like what she’s said but you can’t say it’s calculated or finessed to benefit her politically. That said, since she’s not running we’ve got to play the cards we’ve been dealt and any Republican and nearly any Democrat would be a better president than Dear Leader–at least for this country.

ncborn on October 23, 2011 at 6:40 PM

Cain doesn’t think on his feet all that well, is what this comes down to. He’s trying very hard to have a sharp response to every question, but even on easily predictable issues, he’s tying himself into a pretzel and committing unforced errors. I’ll be happy enough if Cain is the nominee, but he really needs to get a better game, and quickly.

TexasDan on October 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

This +1

gryphon202 on October 23, 2011 at 6:41 PM

He was a lot better off before trying the socon pandering tour.

mythicknight on October 23, 2011 at 6:45 PM

So Romney’s nomination is not a fait accompli? Or did I miss something?

gryphon202 on October 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

?????????

Lotta football still to play, son… lotta ball…

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 6:47 PM

So Romney’s nomination is not a fait accompli? Or did I miss something?

gryphon202 on October 23, 2011 at 6:38 PM

I’m neither for Romney nor against Cain. I will probably vote for whichever of them wins the nomination come election day.

But Cain knows that to do well in business you have to have a good business plan. The equivalent in running for office is that you have to have a good set of talking points. Cain needs to get his talking points in order — fast. He’s being swamped by Romney in that regard — Romney has run for office many times and is doing the drill almost by rote.

Honesty should not show that you have failed to think through any of a number of wedge issues which divide our people, and it should not show that you think the issue to be unimportant.

The Whig Party withered away because it failed to address the one big human rights issue of its time — slavery.

unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:47 PM

That’s what led me to the conclusion yesterday that Herman Cain doesn’t have a problem with not knowing the issues or with lying. What he does have is an unfortunate propensity to just blurt out the truth without seeming to realize what it will do to his political fortunes.

All the examples you cited actually do show a problem with not knowing the issues. He didn’t know what to say on the abortion thing, and the electric fence joke/not-joke was plain old amateurism. None of this illustrates your argument.

OneGyT on October 23, 2011 at 6:48 PM

Herman has the entire DC apparatus from both parties and even Fox news leveling half truths machine gun style against the front runner to get their control back.

The voters are smarter than the liars these days. I blame the internet.

Cain has said that he will sign an Amendment to reverse Roe.

So the ball is in the Senate and House’s court awaiting a 2/3 rds vote so 3/4s vote of the States takes abortion out of the Feds hands, and then requires each State to vote it up or down differently.

So what.

Cain has said he would consider the facts like Israel considered them if he was ever faced with the life of one US soldier hostage offered in trade for the prisoners still in Gitmo.

So what.

The Numerology Scandal is a take off from his cute chapter in his upbeat book. It has no beliefs other then taking encouragement from what all mathematicians do which is wonder about the patterns of numbers in life.

So what.

The Fox News guys assert that 9-9-9 is easily demagogued by liars.

So what.

Cain is clearly going to win the primaries, That’s what!

jimw on October 23, 2011 at 6:49 PM

The only problem with all these talking heads and their various analyses is Herman Cain is leading in many polls and his numbers are rising in most of the other polls. Although pundits may hunger for sophisticated lies and cleverly camouflaged talking points voters seems to like what Cain is raising.

“Herman Cain shouldn’t be elected because he wasn’t smart enough to figure out what to lie about ahead of time.”

Maybe he doesn’t want to figure out what to lie about ahead of time.

Viator on October 23, 2011 at 6:52 PM

His answers are inconsistent because Cain is not very smart.

You have to be kidding. This about a man who came up from nothing, who earned a bachelor’s degree in mathematics and a master’s in computer science, was a computer system’s analyst, and CEO of Godfather’s Pizza, which he rescued from failure.

The fact that he doesn’t lie, but is sometimes dismayingly honest may be a flaw for a politician, but for anyone else it would be a positive point.

Just a shot in the dark, but I suspect that you don’t like Mr. Cain. Or maybe you’re afraid of him, huh? But you don’t need to fling around insults. Try coming up with a reasoned argument and you might be more credible.

hachiban on October 23, 2011 at 6:52 PM

Cain wants to be president, but before you can hold that office you have to be a politician first.

NO. . . YOU DON’T!

20% of our Presidents never won elective office prior to becoming President.

I would say that in order to be a “politician” you have to win an elective office first. Until you do that, you’re merely a candidate.

Washington
Adams
Jefferson
Taylor
Grant
Arthur
Taft
Hoover
Eisenhower

That’s the list of Presidents who never won elective office before they won their Presidency. You could try to argue that Adams and Jefferson were politicians because they held VP jobs as a result of their elective losses, but that still leaves 7 non-politician Presidents.

How about we try electing another non-politician President, it seems like the politicians have mucked things up enough already.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 6:54 PM

HondaV65 on October 23, 2011 at 6:31 PM

Yeah, that was pretty much it.

Jazz Shaw on October 23, 2011 at 6:56 PM

I agree, hachiban. Let’s see reasoned arguments instead of hiding behind insults thinking it’s a winning argument.

Kokonut on October 23, 2011 at 6:57 PM

Many people were unhappy because too many politicians are just career beltway bandits who don’t identify with the voters. People complained because all we got offerred was the usual reruns – next in line types. Cain stepped up and he isn’t a career politician and no he hasn’t written point papers on the leaders of all those “stan countries. So now we have to tear him down because he’s not what we said we didn’t want.

katiejane on October 23, 2011 at 7:00 PM

Cain’s position on abortion mirrors mine. Don’t care how he muddied it afterwords. Too bad he has to play these semantic games. He has my vote still.
redshirt on October 23, 2011 at 6:27 PM

Mine,too. And I bet plenty of other conservatives feel the same way.I find Bachmann, Santorum and Perry too rabid.

What I got out of the whole abortion thing is that Mr. Cain is silently pro-choice at the personal level. That doesn’t mean he thinks the state should pay for abortions, but it puts him firmly in the Romney circle of the Venn Diagram.
unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM
I think that’s a fair interpretation…
JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 6:35 PM
me too.
TexasDan on October 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

I agree.

Agree.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:00 PM

I’m looking through the Hotair archives to see where Jazz criticized Michael Chertoff and George Bush for actually testing border walls with electric fencing.

I’m also looking for Jazz’s criticism of Rep. King for demonstrating the model of Border Wall with electric fencing on the House Floor and in the House Judiciary committee when he was chair.

I’m also looking for where Jazz criticizes DHS for installing electric fence in 07.

I’m also looking for where Jazz criticizes the Border Patrol for installing electric fencing during Clinton’s term.

I’m also looking for where Jazz criticizes Obama and the Customs and Border Protection for suggesting and offering up for public comment the Northern Border PEIS Project which included electric fencing.

I’m also looking for Jazz’s criticism of the Secure Fence Act of 2006 which as introduced included electric border fencing.

I’m having trouble finding these, can someone point them out for me?

Thanks in advance.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:01 PM

Don’t look now but ROMNEY is positioning himself by trying to politically kill off Perry…..

……so there is NO CREDIBLE CONSERVATIVE LEFT when Cain finishes imploding.

OBAMA 2012…….Because you know Romney is the same!!

PappyD61 on October 23, 2011 at 7:03 PM

What I got out of the whole abortion thing is that Mr. Cain is silently pro-choice at the personal level. That doesn’t mean he thinks the state should pay for abortions, but it puts him firmly in the Romney circle of the Venn Diagram.
unclesmrgol on October 23, 2011 at 6:25 PM
I think that’s a fair interpretation…
JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 6:35 PM
me too.
TexasDan on October 23, 2011 at 6:39 PM

I don’t see how ya’ll get that given that Cain’s position hasn’t changed for years.

No Abortion, no execptions.

I’m also curious how you get that when the man gave 1 million of his own money as a Pro-Life sponsor.

If anything, Cain’s TOO pro-life because he won’t budge on exceptions for rape and incest and is reluctant to offer exceptions for life/health of the mother after what happened in Idaho with their “no exceptions” bill.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:03 PM

At least he didn’t dodge it by saying it was above his pay grade. I know one politician who won the presidency by trying to please everybody too. So Cain’s response isn’t that problematic to me.

JAM on October 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM

here’s a t-shirt for you Jazz….. “it’s the ECONOMY, stupid.”

If you would prefer a slick politician that lies with the greatest of ease…. well go vote Democrat.

maineconservative on October 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM

The only problem with all these talking heads and their various analyses is Herman Cain is leading in many polls and his numbers are rising in most of the other polls. Although pundits may hunger for sophisticated lies and cleverly camouflaged talking points voters seems to like what Cain is raising.

True. With every bizarre “what is-is” parsing attacks offered up by the deep-thinkin’ elite his numbers go proportionally higher. Teflon+ .

“Herman Cain shouldn’t be elected because he wasn’t smart enough to figure out what to lie about ahead of time.”

Maybe he doesn’t want to figure out what to lie about ahead of time.
Viator on October 23, 2011 at 6:52 PM

What? You mean to suggest people might be a little weary of politicians who lie at every turn?
:D

whatcat on October 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM

Fortunately for Cain, the rest of the people suck too.

CrankyTRex on October 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM

Look, the man is a life long business man who knows what he is doing in the financial world. He is not well informed on foreign policy or domestic issues. Hello! That’s called “Everyman”. Only gob spit politicians claim to know everything about everything and actually know nothing of real things. Cain is like Harry Truman and he will rise to the job when he has to. He may respond to questions the way we as ordinary people do and that is honestly. He has made some gaffs on foreign issues and that will be his major weakness if he reaches the big debates with Obama. My take is that I would rather have honest answers that may not be PC but are his answers and not some election campaign committee’s answer. Look at the alternatives! Romney or Obama for the next 4 years.

inspectorudy on October 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM

Great. Another thread about abortion. What a waste of space.

It’s the economy stupid, err Jazz.

exdeadhead on October 23, 2011 at 6:23 PM

What post were you reading? Abortion was one EXAMPLE – not the subject of the post…..

ll

Lady Logician on October 23, 2011 at 7:06 PM

Jazz’s friend:

Maybe you don’t realize in your analytical little brain how offensive it sounds when you say that. Here’s what I hear you saying: Herman Cain shouldn’t be elected because he wasn’t smart enough to figure out what to lie about ahead of time.

Oh please! Politicians don’t need to lie, but they do need to learn to edit their thoughts before they speak. There is nothing “offensive” about that. Hopefully all of us non-politicians also have the sense to edit what we say also before we blurt out things we may regret. There’s nothing in the least bit dishonest about doing that.

Buy Danish on October 23, 2011 at 7:06 PM

When someone wants something really bad, they think about it. They think about it a lot. They play it out in their mind. They say if this happens, what should I do/say? What if I did this? It becomes an obsession.

Cain obviously has not spent much time thinking about running for President. He has not prepared himself for the campaign. If he doesn’t think enough of the Presidency to prepare for the campaign, why should we think he has prepared himself to be President?

huckleberryfriend on October 23, 2011 at 7:06 PM

I’m having trouble finding these, can someone point them out for me?
Thanks in advance.
Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:01 PM

Hey ya’ll, don’t mess with Jason. He be da man for Herman. Really, good stuff, Jason.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM

At least Cain isn’t a birther like Perry.

andy85719 on October 23, 2011 at 7:10 PM

Honesty is the best policy.

When you get politicians who gratuitously lie, how can you trust them on any subject?

See the problem our government is in with lying about things like SSA, Medicare and Medicaid? You can’t get the truth out of them on those subjects, the cost of those things and our inability to pay for them.

Yeah the truth is a hard sell because it hurts.

Better pain at a low level continuously than the big old bankruptcy meat axe at the end of nearly a century of feel good lies.

ajacksonian on October 23, 2011 at 7:10 PM

huckleberryfriend on October 23, 2011 at 7:06 PM

Perhaps it’s the aristocratic political class who spend their entire lives planning to run for President which creates so many of the problems that we have today.

I hate to think of what our nation would have been like if Washington had balanced his every action and consideration on what he would need to avoid in his history when he made a Presidential run.

Sounds like you only consider types like Gore and Kerry to be eligible to be our President.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:11 PM

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 6:54 PM

Do your homework Jason…

Geo Washington – Member of the Virginia House of Burgesses.

John Adams – Diplomat to France.

Thomas Jefferson – Member of the Viginia House of Burgesses.

Taft – Governor General of the Phillipines, Secretary of War.

And do you really think that Grant and Ike didn’t have to perform very delicate politics in their roles as top generals, especially Ike?

This is so full of fail it is to laugh…

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 7:11 PM

Funny how Cain has a truth problem but Romney’s GLARING abortion flip flop-global warming crappola-Romneycare would be good for the country…until it wasn’t…truth problems seem to be simply political nuance.

Funny how that works…

katy on October 23, 2011 at 7:12 PM

Confucius say: better a diamond with a flaw than a people without.

InkyBinkyBarleyBoo on October 23, 2011 at 7:13 PM

Oh please! Politicians don’t need to lie, but they do need to learn to edit their thoughts before they speak.

Did ya hear Newt last nite? That guy showed once again that he has never had an unexpressed thought. He in fact seems to revel in saying pretty outrageous…even dumb things. Like wanting to repeat the Lincoln-Douglas debates between Obama and him…something like 5 3-hour debates…can u imagine that?? Didn’t think so…what a blowhard.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:13 PM

Washington
Adams
Jefferson
Taylor
Grant
Arthur
Taft
Hoover
Eisenhower

That’s the list of Presidents who never won elective office before they won their Presidency. You could try to argue that Adams and Jefferson were politicians because they held VP jobs as a result of their elective losses, but that still leaves 7 non-politician Presidents.

How about we try electing another non-politician President, it seems like the politicians have mucked things up enough already.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 6:54 PM

Er, actually Washington and Jefferson both held elective office; Adams was a two-time Ambassador and Vice-President; Taft had a record in public service (Solicitor General, Judge, Governor of Cuba, the Philippines, and Secretary of War); and Grant and Hoover were lousy presidents. Taylor, Arthur and Eisenhower were all generals. Taylor didn’t leave much of a legacy (he died in office) and Arthur was very much a part of NY politics.

Experience counts.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:14 PM

Hey ya’ll, don’t mess with Jason. He be da man for Herman. Really, good stuff, Jason.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:08 PM

Herman’s at the top of my list, with Perry and Newt right behind.

I’m just sick and tired of Republican vetting being turned into a cesspool of misrepresentation, selective reading, lies of ommission, ad hominem and all the other forms of false argument that this cycle has become.

We’re supposed to be vetting our candidates honestly, that all seems to have gone straight out of the window, and it pisses me off.

I’ll defend Perry just as vigorously when it’s warranted, and Newt.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:15 PM

. It is only after the fallout from his answers begins that he seems to notice the potential damage he’s doing to his campaign and he embarks on a series of “clarifications” to make the answer more palatable to primary voters.

I disagree though I’m certain that most won’t accept my explanation of why I do.

I personally believe that abortion, any abortion, is murder. Though I must say that I have a “problem” when it comes to a pregnancy through incest or rape. I realized that my rationalization for these two extreme cases is morally wrong in God’s eyes. Abortion is still and always will be murder. But I simply can’t find myself imposing my beliefs on others in those two cases. Were it me, I’d have to carry the resulting baby, I really believe, but will never know, that’s how I would react.

Were it my daughter, I would counsel her that any abortion is murder, but I would understand if she did not carry the baby to term. I would not “feel” her decision to not carry the child was direct murder. Were it the neighbor’s child, I would again understand and yes, I would feel differently about an individual who simple found it inconvenient to carry out the consequences of not using birth control.

I believe that Herman Cain is conflicted as I am.

katablog.com on October 23, 2011 at 7:15 PM

Jefferson was also Governor of Virginia.*

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:16 PM

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:13 PM

Maybe you don’t have the intellectual stamina for a 3 hour debate but I certainly do.

Socmodfiscon on October 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM

Don’t look now but ROMNEY is positioning himself by trying to politically kill off Perry…..

PappyD61 on October 23, 2011 at 7:03 PM

How do you kill someone who has already committed suicide?

InkyBinkyBarleyBoo on October 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 7:11 PM

Damn, you beat me to it! Well, I’m glad someone else knows the history of our great country. :-)

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM

Oh, let me add – NO political candidate has flip flopped or LIED more than Barack Obama. I do think that Mitt Romney and Rick Perry are more practiced in deceiving than Herman Cain. No question, Cain is going to step in some “do-do”. But the BIG question will be whether the liberal media will call BHO on the same things which they are ready to filet Cain over.

katablog.com on October 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM

Maybe you don’t have the intellectual stamina for a 3 hour debate but I certainly do.

Socmodfiscon on October 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM

It would be awesome.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:19 PM

I don’t see how ya’ll get that given that Cain’s position hasn’t changed for years.
No Abortion, no execptions.
I’m also curious how you get that when the man gave 1 million of his own money as a Pro-Life sponsor.
If anything, Cain’s TOO pro-life because he won’t budge on exceptions for rape and incest and is reluctant to offer exceptions for life/health of the mother after what happened in Idaho with their “no exceptions” bill.
Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:03 PM

Eh. It would seem the word has gone down at HA to beat the same dead horse manufactured non-issue ad infinitum and desperately search for something new to try to recycle it. AP did a lateral to Jazz. Now the complaint is down to “Cain doesn’t lie” – which, come to think of it, would make a great bumper sticker.

whatcat on October 23, 2011 at 7:21 PM

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:14 PM

Notice I never said, “held elective office”, I said WON elective office.

Don’t change what I said. If you want to make a case, make your case, don’t misrepresent what I clearly wrote.

Jefferson and Adams LOST to become vice-president.

If you want to count “non-civilian-government” elections, then Cain has won elective office under those conditions.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:21 PM

As great as the Newt v. Obama Lincoln/Douglas debate sounds in theory, it would be terrible in practice. For one, Newt will have owned it inside of 15 minutes so there would be no point in continuing. For two, nobody in the normal voting public is going to sit through that. It’s hard enough to hold their attention for an hour of political discussion, never mind three.

CrankyTRex on October 23, 2011 at 7:23 PM

At least he didn’t dodge it by saying it was above his pay grade. I know one politician who won the presidency by trying to please everybody too. So Cain’s response isn’t that problematic to me.

JAM on October 23, 2011 at 7:05 PM

“Cain is doing (almost) what Obama did. Therefore it’s okay.”
Reminds me of “Bachmann is inexperienced. So was Obama and he got elected. Therefore it’s okay.”

Apparently unlike some people here, I actually see Obama’s example as a negative one, not one to be followed.

OneGyT on October 23, 2011 at 7:24 PM

African American Businessman Spends 1M to Urge Blacks to Vote Pro-Life

Sounds like he put his money where his mouth is.

Knucklehead on October 23, 2011 at 7:26 PM

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 7:11 PM

You are correct, my apologies, I was wrong to include Jefferson on the list. Please strike him from it.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:26 PM

Maybe you don’t have the intellectual stamina for a 3 hour debate but I certainly do.
Socmodfiscon on October 23, 2011 at 7:18 PM

between Newt and Obama??u shouldn’t be proud of having the stomach for that. 5 of them ? why would u wnat to live through that? newt would be flying off in superfluous tangents and obama would wax eloquently about the meaning of the meaningless.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:27 PM

African American Businessman Spends 1M to Urge Blacks to Vote Pro-Life

Sounds like he put his money where his mouth is.
Knucklehead on October 23, 2011 at 7:26 PM

All those who have done the same are free to raise their hands and be acknowledged by their peers, of course.

whatcat on October 23, 2011 at 7:31 PM

Will you really and honestly put this fool up against Obama?

ANY day of the week! Go back over just a FEW of the Obamateurism and you’ll have a clue just how DUMB Obama is. Cain ain’t no fool, he’s simply (and what I like about him) not schooled in politics. Obama is a fool beyond anything we could ever have imagined.

Israeli president sent out the backdoor;
Speeches on iPod to Queen;
Bowing, Bowing, Bowing;
Apologies for American;
Corpsman;
Shout out after Ft. Hood shooting;
57 states;
Japanese dinner for President of South Korea;
Easier to be President of China;
ATM’s killing jobs;
Me, Me, Me;
Identifies wrong soldier as non-posthumous MoH recipient;
Obama botches toast to Queen Elizabeth;
Obama accepts his transparency award in secret, no-press meeting;
and we could go ON AND ON AND ON

katablog.com on October 23, 2011 at 7:31 PM

Jefferson and Adams LOST to become vice-president.

If you want to count “non-civilian-government” elections, then Cain has won elective office under those conditions.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:21 PM

Jefferson was Governor of Virginia, dude. I’m sorry facts blow your whole “We need know-nothing outsiders!!11!!” narrative. Adams was also an Ambassador, which is beyond highly political. The Founders had *political* experience and some were even dreaded government workers and career politicians (Adams launched a dynasty! *Gasp*)Oh, and they laid the groundwork for the country. Herman laid the groundwork for the bacon-cheeseburger pizza at your participating Godfather’s Pizza.

Jason, Herman Cain lacks political experience/knowledge, and his supporters seem to see this as a virtue. The rest of us — those who want to see real change in this country and in government — see Herman’s lacking qualifications as a dangerous weakness.

Newt now!

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:32 PM

and obama would wax eloquently

no, TOTUS is not allowed at debates, expect a lot of uhssssssss.

katablog.com on October 23, 2011 at 7:33 PM

African American Businessman Spends 1M to Urge Blacks to Vote Pro-Life

2 out of 3 black babies are aborted (therapeutic abortions, not miscarriages). it’s rampant infanticide and Herman knows it.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

JohnGalt23 on October 23, 2011 at 7:11 PM

Adams did not win an election to become a diplomat to France.
Taft was likewise appointed Governor of the Phillipines

I’ll cede Washington, for his pre-United States non-popular election.

I’ll note then, the Cain has also won and held an office by election under your terms.

My points still stand. Unless you want to misrepresent my points.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

Cain is 100% pro life. No exceptions. He’s a conservative who thinks the government should not be making our decisions. He’s more conservative than Bachmann or Perry because they want the government in our business over abortions. What would you think if the government got involved in the Terry Shivo case in Florida? What if they told her parents they had to put her down? Isn’t that what the courts did? What if your daughter was going to die if she went on and had her baby and the government told you your daughter will have to die so we can save the baby? Government needs to stay out of all our business.

greenstew98 on October 23, 2011 at 7:37 PM

Jazz, this is what people find refreshing about Cain – he’s unrehearsed. Total antithesis of Romney and Perry. It sounds crazy but folks love him for it. He rarely apologizes or backs down. He stands his ground doing no more than clarifying his positions… DD

Darvin Dowdy on October 23, 2011 at 7:37 PM

I love his “truth problem”! – unheard of among the political class who are much too savvy to just shoot out the truth, Jesus! I hope he can survive being truthful but frankly I think it will scare too many citizens and petrify fellow politicians.

Truth is a commodity like any other that people want only if they like it, and most of the time they don’t. They just pick the nonsense they like and call it truth. Useless platitudes, promises & lies are the stuff of real politicians, and most of the public are use to that, and maybe kind of likes it. I not sure this guy can make it. But I like him.

Chessplayer on October 23, 2011 at 7:39 PM

I’ll cede Washington, for his pre-United States non-popular election.

I’ll note then, the Cain has also won and held an office by election under your terms.

My points still stand. Unless you want to misrepresent my points.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

What office are you talking about, Jason? Are you talking about his stint on the KC Fed Reserve Board?

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:39 PM

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:32 PM

I already ceded Jefferson.

You continue to misrepresent what I said.

Among other things, Cain did indeed take a failing national chain, return it to profitability and create actual wealth for the workers. He also turned around a failing region of a major multi-national.

Those aren’t strikes against him. They’re pluses. . . if you’re talking about experience and a proven record of private sector economic enterprise.

Cain’s “lack of political knowledge” sure put Clinton in his place on national television and put Hillarycare in it’s coffin.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:40 PM

What office are you talking about, Jason? Are you talking about his stint on the KC Fed Reserve Board?

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:39 PM

That. . .among others. Perhaps you should actually research what Cain did before you vet him through ad hominem and misrepresentation.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Ok, so Cain shoots from the hip. Teach him to holster it, hold his fire, and maneuver a bit.

He’ll get along with it. He’s a radio host, the man tells it like it is and he just has to learn to modulate himself.

STill lotsa time.

Oh, BTW, Romney doesn’t gaffe like this and he is UNcourageous, effeminate, and weak if you ask me.

booyah

ted c on October 23, 2011 at 7:41 PM

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:32 PM

Lack of political experience is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, an outsider’s perspective can be very beneficial since it can cut through dogma etc., and come up with creative solutions to problems. On the other hand, it can handicap a President politically and make him a lame duck early on in his term.

dglenn on October 23, 2011 at 7:42 PM

I am pro-life but we need to keep abortion legal.

Democrats are still reproducing.

The Rock on October 23, 2011 at 7:42 PM

2 out of 3 black babies are aborted (therapeutic abortions, not miscarriages). it’s rampant infanticide and Herman knows it.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

I know… Where are the black men of courage on this?? Fellas?

ted c on October 23, 2011 at 7:43 PM

Pro-Choice = No Child Left Alive…

The Rock on October 23, 2011 at 7:44 PM

Adams did not win an election to become a diplomat to France.
Taft was likewise appointed Governor of the Phillipines.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

Philippines*

No, but they were totally a part of the political class. :-)

Taft actually didn’t enjoy being POTUS and was much more content serving on the SCOTUS. He was also smart — real smart. I like Taft. If Christie ever makes it they will have to find Taft’s old bath tub.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:44 PM

2 out of 3 black babies are aborted (therapeutic abortions, not miscarriages). it’s rampant infanticide and Herman knows it.

gracie on October 23, 2011 at 7:35 PM

Yes he does Gracie,, but AP has told us he’s pro-choice, he’s gaffe prone and now Jazz is telling us he’s a liar and is going to beat this issue like a rented mule.

It’s all about the economy, Jazz!!!

Knucklehead on October 23, 2011 at 7:47 PM

OBAMA 2012…….Because you know Romney is the same!!

PappyD61 on October 23, 2011 at 7:03 PM

I’ve got my worries about Romney, big worries, but I said this in another thread, so hear me out. If Romney gets the nom and goes on to win the general, he’ll have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to be a president of substance, a president who reforms. He’ll most likely have a GOP Congress, possibly big majorities, and a nation eager for him to bring about major change that leads to opportunity and prosperity. The right policies will do that. If he tacks left, if he goes big government, he’ll blow it, and he’ll be a one-termer. Romney’s not an idiot. He will have a Reaganesque opportunity to save this country. Don’t you think he’ll take it? Don’t you think he’ll go for the history books and not the ash heap of history?

Rational Thought on October 23, 2011 at 7:48 PM

Lack of political experience is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, an outsider’s perspective can be very beneficial since it can cut through dogma etc., and come up with creative solutions to problems. On the other hand, it can handicap a President politically and make him a lame duck early on in his term.

dglenn on October 23, 2011 at 7:42 PM

What creative solution has Herman Cain offered? Whenever I see him on TV it is either 9-9-9 9-0-9 or releasing GITMO detainees for one hostage. Oh, he did say something about apples and oranges — I will give him that.

The guy is not ready and I have yet to hear something creative. Newt, on the other hand.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:49 PM

dglenn on October 23, 2011 at 7:42 PM

Cain is not an outsider. He’s intimately worked with Gingrich and god help us, Boehner. He was a lobbyist for many years.A lobbyist for god’s sake? How can he be an outsider? He ran for elective office and lost every time, often by embarrassing totals.

promachus on October 23, 2011 at 7:49 PM

Related: Cain even went so far this weekend as to say, regarding such an amendment to the constitution, “… if it comes to my desk, I’ll sign it.” (Well. OK, then.)

I wonder which constitution Cain has read that says that amendments come to the President’s desk for signing? It’s not in the one I’ve read.

The POTUS has NO role in the amendment process. All he can do is support one (like Perry who has said that he would “support” an amendment to protect marriage and one to protect the unborn). I can’t believe he thinks he’d “sign” it.

Herman truly has NO idea what he’s talking about. He has NO idea how America works if he skipped the class on the Constitution (which isn’t surprising since he also thinks that the 2nd Amendment can be curtailed by the states).

Another ooooof.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on October 23, 2011 at 7:49 PM

Romney’s not an idiot. He will have a Reaganesque opportunity to save this country. Don’t you think he’ll take it? Don’t you think he’ll go for the history books and not the ash heap of history?

Rational Thought on October 23, 2011 at 7:48 PM

GWB also had those opportunities and he went nowhere. There’s nothing Romney’s resume or history to say he will reform anything. Oh,. he’ll reform alright but make the system 100 times worse. That’s his speciality.

promachus on October 23, 2011 at 7:51 PM

No, but they were totally a part of the political class. :-)

Irrelevant to my point. . . this is the third time you’ve knowingly and intentionally misrepresented me, even after it was pointed out to you twice. That rises above actual mistake to real intellectual dishonesty on your part.

Taft actually didn’t enjoy being POTUS and was much more content serving on the SCOTUS. He was also smart — real smart. I like Taft. If Christie ever makes it they will have to find Taft’s old bath tub.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:44 PM

I’ve never suggested that Taft “enjoyed” anything. Such information is grossly irrelevant.

I will posit that Cain probably won’t “enjoy” his time in office should he be elected. I don’t particularly care, nor want a President to “enjoy” their time in office. I want them to do their job, a difficult job, I’m not interested in how well they entertain with Kobe beef and rappers by the dozen.

You’re taking great liberties with what I said that are not yours to take.

I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt, but I think now, judging by the evidence you’ve presented. I can only consider you intentionally dishonest.

Jason Coleman on October 23, 2011 at 7:51 PM

Rational Thought on October 23, 2011 at 7:48 PM

No, I think Romney will do what his Bush advisers recommend and we will get another four years of Bush-style governance. Romney hasn’t even offered up a bold vision going forward.

Newt, on the other hand.

Punchenko on October 23, 2011 at 7:51 PM

Hey, you may disagree with Cain on issues. That’s legit. But challenging him on TRUTH is unsustainable. Herman speaks more truth than the rest of them, and that’s why we love him.

petefrt on October 23, 2011 at 7:52 PM

Frankly I agree with Cain’s original statement. I know EXACTLY where he’s coming from on this issue, because it’s the same place I occupy on this issue.

Let’s see if I can illustrate this and ‘un-cloudy’ it for at least a few folks. (I know the ‘I’d rather die than open my mind to another stance on this’ group will still hate me, but, oh well — I’m not here to be liked by people I pretty much think are hypocritical when it comes to wanting small govt, but also want govt to intrude into private lives when THEY want them to).

Ok…the illustration. Very simple here. Please follow along:

If we don’t like the idea of govt intruding into our lives when it comes to making “end of life” decisions, then how can we logically hold the same stance about the abortion issue when it comes to rape, incest, life of the mother? Both scenarios — end of life, and abortion due to rape, incest, life of the mother — deal with extremely personal life decisions that should be made ONLY by individuals and their families. Both are choices. Both deal with life and death. If it’s ok for individuals to essentially CHOOSE to take their own lives when they wish to do so because of extreme circumstances, how does that differ from abortion due to rape/incest/life of mother (also extreme circumstances)??

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Cain is absolutely correct — it SHOULDN’T be a function of govt to intrude into their private lives in situations like that. If we allow that…in any extreme circumstance, on any level…We are opening a ‘Pandora’s Box’ upon ourselves, and we shall get what we may or may not have asked for.

Talismen on October 23, 2011 at 7:54 PM

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