Should conservatives back the 9-9-9 plan?
posted at 8:45 am on October 13, 2011 by Ed Morrissey
Herman Cain got what he wanted from this week’s debate — he drew attention to his 9-9-9 plan for tax reform, and he proved that he could handle attacks from the field and maintain his aggressiveness. But now that Cain has drawn attention to the plan he says will jump start the economy, he will find more questions and challenges as well as supporters. In the latter camp, Art Laffer has given his supply-side stamp of approval:
Famed supply-side economist Art Laffer told HUMAN EVENTS that Cain’s “9-9-9″ plan was a pro-growth plan that would create the proper conditions for America’s economy to grow and thrive again.
“Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 plan would be a vast improvement over the current tax system and a boon to the U.S. economy,” Laffer told HUMAN EVENTS in a statement. “The goal of supply-side tax reform is always a broadening of the tax base and lowering of marginal tax rates.”
Added Laffer: “Mr. Cain’s plan is simple, transparent, neutral with respect to capital and labor, and savings and consumption, and also greatly decreases the hidden costs of tax compliance. There is no doubt that economic growth would surge upon implementation of 9-9-9.”
Laffer also said that “such a system provides the least avenues to avoid paying taxes, yet also maintains the strongest incentives for work effort, production, and investment.”
On the other hand, ABC News walked through the implications for a household of four earning the average national wage of “just under $50,000,” and finds that these middle-class voters will get squeezed, and squeezed hard. That’s largely due to the third “nine,” the new federal sales tax that Cain’s proposal would create in tandem with flat taxes on personal and corporate income (also see update below):
If you have a family of four with an income of just under $50,000, they would pay more under the Cain plan. Currently, they are taxed at just less than 7 percent and pay $3,400 in income tax. Under Cain’s plan, they would be taxed at 9 percent or pay $4,500.
That’s $1,100 more.
Although the family would save almost $4,000 in Social Security taxes, it would have to give up the child tax credit of $4,000. Furthermore, it would pay an additional national sales tax of 9 percent on everything purchased, including groceries and clothes, which totals about $2,000.
That means under the Cain plan that family would be almost doubling its taxes, going from $3,400 to $6,500.
Most of the damage in this case comes not from the flattening of the tax code and the elimination of deductions — which would be almost entirely offset by the elimination of other tax streams, as Cain promises — but from the national sales tax. In my column for The Fiscal Times today, I question whether conservatives want to champion a new tax that almost by definition will have a regressive impact on voters — and could open a constitutional Pandora’s Box that will undermine arguments against creeping federal encroachment. But first, let’s be clear as to what exactly 9-9-9 is — and isn’t:
It is not a comprehensive economic plan. It’s actually not even a budget plan. That’s why Cain’s challenge to Romney in the debate was somewhat unfair; Romney’s 160-page proposal is a broad economic plan with specifics on deficit reduction and entitlement reform, trade and energy policy. 9-9-9 is more properly categorized as tax reform.
9-9-9 is also transitional tax reform, not the end goal. On Cain’s website, he describes 9-9-9 as merely Phase 1 of tax reform. The final stage of Cain’s tax vision is the Fair Tax proposal pushed by Mike Huckabee in the 2008 election cycle, which is a consumption tax modeled on the European value-added tax (VAT). Cain developed the 9-9-9 plan to “unite the ‘Flat Taxers’ with the ‘Fair Taxers.’”
That’s a laudable goal, but instead of uniting the two camps by using a flat tax as an intermediate step, Cain adds the federal sales tax while the income taxes are still in place. That creates a new federal income stream rather than replacing the existing income-tax stream. We’d have to hope that Congress could repeal the 16th Amendment shortly after implementing 9-9-9, but that’s a time-consuming process. Cain is going to have a hard time finding two-thirds of the politicians in Congress willing to give up their ability to use the income tax as a spoils system, either now or in the future. In the meantime, the federal government will be inserting itself into every retail transaction in the country.
And just how do conservatives feel about that?
Finally, without a specific constitutional amendment authorizing it, a federal sales tax on general purchases would get challenged by small-government federalists on principle. Unless the sale crosses state lines, it is difficult to see federal jurisdiction at the cash register for most transactions. Accepting that Congress can impose a sales tax on transactions at the local grocery store without a Constitutional amendment granting such authority would require conservatives to embrace a Wickard v Filburn philosophy of interstate commerce. Since a rejection of that philosophy is at the heart of conservative opposition to ObamaCare and its mandate, don’t expect conservatives to leap for joy at the thought of a new definition of interstate commerce that fits the final “nine” in Cain’s plan.
The federal sales tax, at least without a Constitutional amendment, makes the limitation of federal authority to interstate commerce absolutely dead. If they have tax jurisdiction on any retail sales transaction in America, then Congress has the explicit power to regulate all commerce, not just the encroachments we’ve seen through Wickard.
Cain’s a smart man who knows how to adapt when a business plan doesn’t work out. I’d prefer to see his 9-9-9 plan modified to a 15-15 plan, or a plan to just transfer to a constitutionally-based (and constitutionally-limited) Fair Tax without the intermediate steps at all, rather than a hybrid that ends up with Americans paying taxes in two streams, and Congress still able to manipulate both for their own political purposes. Cain has proven that he thinks out of the box, and he’s absolutely right that we can’t pivot to long-term growth and economic stability by tweaking the systems we currently have — but a new federal sales tax on top of an income tax would be a Pandora’s Box conservatives should not want to see opened.
Update: HA reader Bill C says ABC’s computation is in error:
The first step is fine … $3400 vs $4500. However, the $4000 from Soc Sec. taxes is direct return, but the $4000 tax credit is an adjustment to the amount to be taxed, to the amount they pay MORE would be 9% of that or $360. $4500 – $4000 + $360 = $860. If you then add the $2000, you end up with $3400 vs $2860.
So it is not almost doubling the tax, but reducing it by a little more than $500.
I’ll drop ABC a note to ask them to review this, but I believe Bill is correct.
Update II: However, the Tax Policy Center says the Cain calculation is also overstating current tax liability for a family of four at $50,000 (via Jen Rubin):
In fact, a family making $50,000 a year with two children would only pay about $776 in income taxes when standard deductions are factored in, based on 2010 Internal Revenue Service levels. (In fact, not factoring in deductions, a married couple filing jointly making $50,000 a year would pay $6,666 in income tax, not $10,000. But what’s important for tax purposes is “taxable” income.)
Here’s the math:
- Gross Income: $50,000
- Subtract the 2010 standard deduction: $11,400 (2011 is $11,600)
- Subtract the personal exemption (essentially the number of people in the house): $14,600 ($3,650 x 4)
- That brings us to a taxable income of $24,000
- The tax on a married couple filing jointly at $24,000: $2,766
- Then, deduct an additional $2,000 ($1,000 child tax credit x 2)That comes out to just $766. And that doesn’t include other potential exemptions, like educator credits, moving costs, student-loan interest, health-savings accounts, etc.
ABC also got the child tax credits wrong; it’s correct in this analysis.
Update III: More analysis from reader David P, using three scenarios for baseline assumptions:
Summarizing the end results (the math is later), there are 3 scenarios about what would happen to this family under the 999 compared to 2010 rates (which is what everyone has used in their calcs): 1. the family is self-employed, 2. the employer gives the SS tax to the employee, and 3. the employer keeps the SS tax.
1. A self-employed family paid $8400 in federal taxes in 2010 and had $41600 left, compared to $6500 under 999 with $43500. That’s $2000 less in taxes and $2000 more in their pockets.
2. The family paid $4575 in total federal taxes in 2010 and had $45425 left, compared to paying $6850 under 999 with $46975 left. That’s $2000 more in taxes, BUT its $1500 more in their pockets.
3. The family paid $4575 in total federal taxes in 2010 and had $45425 left, compared to paying $6500 under 999 with $43500 left. That’s $2000 more in taxes, and $2000 less in their pockets.
Under the current 999 plan, only scenario 3 is worse for the family. 999 isn’t perfect, but it won’t take too much tweaking to get it nice. For example, the new code says all taxes that were paid by the employer are now given to the employee, forcing scenario 2 and eliminating scenario 3, with no net negative effect on the employer. …
Here’s the math, roughly typed.
Family of 4 @ $50k gets 2 deds @ 5700 and 4@3650, giving a taxable income of 24000, and they pay an SS/Medi rate of 7.65%
Their taxes are then 16750*10% + 7250*15% = about 2750, and SS/Medi is $50k*7.65% = 3825
Their total federal tax is 2750 income + 3825 SS – 2000 child = 4575If they are self-employed, their SS/Medi rate is 15.3% (7.65*2)
Their taxes are then 2750 income + 7650 SS – 2000 child = 8400Under 999, they pay $50000*9% plus roughly 2000 in sales tax, for $6500 in total federal tax.
If the employer gives them the 3825 that the employer no longer pays to the Fed, then their new income is 53825, and they pay 4850 in income and 6850 total. This isn’t much more than they paid if the employer kept it, but its significantly more in their pocket.
This does make Cain’s “simplicity” argument more supportable, considering all of the gyrations it takes now to get to the math. My objection is less about this and more about adding a federal sales tax while still taxing income, though.









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Hahahaha. That’s a good one. You are so cute.
mrsmwp on October 13, 2011 at 2:22 PM
I would counter that 999 is a reduction of the rates, until FairTAX can be implemented.
In the 999 legislation, one could simply say that the rates are 999 until the FairTAX is enacted, in the event of the FairTAX not coming into play, we essentially have the the same system we have now and Congress will have to come up with their own way out.
That’s a Congressional problem, not Cain’s. If Congress doesn’t support his plan, the people get their say in 14. If we lose, we lose.
It’s no different from Congress raising taxes as they do now.
If it all goes to hell at least we have some explosive econ growth with 999 and we have some time to sock cash away before we go GALT.
Congress can F*CK anything up. That doesn’t mean we do nothing to try and stop them, or change the game to prevent it.
999 is a bridge to FairTAX (or FlatTAX) it’s not a permanent plan and was never intended to be such.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:25 PM
Sounds like that’s a problem you have with your neighbors. Me and my neighbors have been voting down and repealing those quarter pennies.
As for the “economic genius”, let’s avoid the ad hominems, ok.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:27 PM
The arguments against 999 get more compelling!
Ironic Texas is a state that has gone all in, on the consumption tax only based model. Isn’t that, well, “regressive” making everyone pay the same tax rate, regardless of income, number of children, amount of housing debt…?
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 2:27 PM
Time for me to go and get this new arm “therapied”.
Good seeing you round the campus MNHawk. I’ll check out that forum of yours when I get the time.
See ya’ll later. Looking forward to the coming attacks on Cain’s wife. Nice!
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:29 PM
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/05/rush-limbaugh-endorses-mitt-romney/
Rush Limbaugh is a flip flopper!!!!
How dare he talk like he is today?
All this stuff about Romney being a liberal is a big fat lie!!!
Romney is steady.
The rest of you left conservatism behind long ago!!!!
It is Orwellian the way the word “conservative” has been changed to mean “Anything but Romney”.
There are some flip floppers around alright!!!! And Rush Limbaugh and the rest of you take marching orders from Barack Obama’s propaganda machine!!!!
petunia on October 13, 2011 at 2:30 PM
I want to factor in the real world. Economic models that presume perfectly competitive markets have their theoretical uses but do not reflect the real world. Your remark about non-competitive markets is a straw man. I’m not talking about non-competitive markets, but rather a range in which various markets are more or less competitive, and the relative competitiveness changes over time. I’m talking about real world real world, dynamic analysis.
For example, static analysis of purely competitive markets suggests that lower costs of production will result in proportionately lower prices. But let’s talk about the real world in which the widget market in a given area has three suppliers. Taxes are cut, and cost of widget production goes down. But two of the suppliers get together and decide to cut prices only partially. Together they are large enough run third supplier out of business if he doesn’t go along. As a result, the price of widgets in that market doesn’t go down in proportion to the reduced cost.
Now you can say well, you will get new suppliers to compete, etc., but the fact is that may or may not happen, may take a while to happen, etc. There are many, many factors in the equation and to apply a blanket static analysis that presumes conditions which may or may not exist, or only partially exist, just doesn’t work.
novaculus on October 13, 2011 at 2:32 PM
That is a separate issue. You were claiming that prices would go down to offset the new sales taxes. They will not. Additionally, the increased income and prices are the equivalent of a massive wave of inflation. This is just the “Cross of Gold” all over again.
Count to 10 on October 13, 2011 at 2:33 PM
JC,
I was not quoting the WaPo BUT listing the Conservatives they quoted from who have concerns.
I am a Romney supporter but also like Cain as well. I just want to make sure that we understand all the ramifications of the 999 plan before jumping on that bandwagon.
One obstacle is getting all the blue States to dump their State tax and ONLY applying Cain’s 999. I do not see that happening nor getting 2/3 of the Senate to go along…
As Gust Avrakotos from Charlie Wilson’s War used to say…”We’ll see”
g2825m on October 13, 2011 at 2:33 PM
You’ve changed my mind. Get on board folks, we MUST elect Mitt Romney. Forget Romneycare and the reality that he won’t get rid of Obamacare…..we must elect Mitt because he recognized a former neighbor at a campaign stop.
Pffft.
As for Cain’s 999 plan, I’d have to say no. One, it will never pass. Two, if it’s a stepping stone to the Fair Tax, why not skip this nonsensical step, and push for the Fair Tax now? Three, once people discover the plan eliminates social security, medicare and medicaid, Cain and his plan are toast. Four, it will never pass. Five, it will never pass.
By the way, did I tell you that it will never pass?
xblade on October 13, 2011 at 2:34 PM
Can’t leave just yet.
You realize that’s versus McCain and Huckabee right?
Of the three, Romney is the best choice.
Toss a blind monkey with an iPad into that mix and the Romney endorsement most likely vanishes.
The only choice at this point that is worse than Romney, is Paul.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:36 PM
You again put words in my mouth I did not say and mis-characterize what I did say. Your manner, or should I say lack of manners, speaks for itself.
novaculus on October 13, 2011 at 2:38 PM
Love Rush as well BUT I do not see how he is always throwing Perry in there when he talks “conservatives” It has already been hashed out on here for the last 60 days that he is not a conservative in the way that many people Tea Party and non-TP see him with what he has done in TX.
For Rush to talk about Mitt inferring these statements, that again others have said without quoting him or quoting him fully, and then to not bring up Perry’s laundry list is a little disheartening as a HUGE Rush fan.
As I have stated over and over on here, is Romney perfect? No. But is he THE best candidate for OUR CURRENT situation in America? Absolutely! He has proven it with his economic track record of all the multiple businesses he has turned around and the world leaders he has to deal with over a 2-3 year period with the olympics and his experience as a Governor promoting conservative ideals EXCEPT the MA Healthcare BUT I understand that he was looking to cover the 8% and not the 100% as Obama does. Plus MA’s Constitution allows a Governor and its Congress to do what they do…and lastly what was finalized and what Romney submitted were NOT the same bill.
g2825m on October 13, 2011 at 2:40 PM
In the real world, that’s what we call illegal.
But now you’re arguing like a lib. You may as well argue for global warming and support Obamacare, because all their predictions of doom and gloom just might actually happen, no matter how unlikely.
xblade on October 13, 2011 at 2:42 PM
Sure, let’s use your example.
No one is claiming “direct proportionality” other than you.
YET. . . you admit that prices DO GO DOWN. You proved my point. Notice above I never try to play the “direct proportionality” game.
Prices go down and consumers have more cash in their pocket to compensate for differences.
Whether or not “direct proportionality” will be achieved is largely up to the consumer, who can buy used, who can defer prices to send a message to the manufacturer.
If an entrepreneur or a related business sees light between where the prices need to be to make a reasonable profit and the price in the market currently, entrepreneurs WILL enter the market.
You’re being intellectually dishonest when you state that direct proportionality must be completely achieved when only looking at one aspect of the plan and ignoring the others.
Argue the whole plan or argue just parts, that’s fine, but don’t try to claim that you’re arguing the whole plan when you are ignoring parts of it intentionally or through ignorance.
Your demand for “proportional” is where your argument falls apart when you exclude portions of the plan.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM
Cain is definitely growing on me…but I am not a fan of the 9 9 9….more of a flat tax guy …make the government live with just 9, and then bring that down to 0
In short, there are four major things to know about taxes
1st. The power to tax is the power to destroy…this is why government should be limited
2nd. Taxes reflect the morality or immorality of government…because if they are wielding their power to destroy unjustly then the government is by definition unjust/immoral
3rd The income tax is a slaves tax. The government is paid first, and then the slaves who work for the government get paid based on a percent the slave masters deem appropriate.
4th The sales tax is permission to live tax. Before you can buy food, shelter, health care you have to have the money to pay the sales tax and then the government will give you permission to buy.
I find the permission to live tax to be more vile than the slaves tax, which is why I prefer the flat tax over the sales tax.
The reason why it should be flat, is two reasons. I think everyone should pay, so that they have a vested interest to keep taxes low for all. God charges a “flat tax” with tithing …hence government being not greater than God should never request more than 10%.
How can it be 0%? Well for a hundred years it was just that, 0% Get a handle on spending, as we have a spending problem…then we can look at shrinking our taxes toward 0%
Conservative Voice on October 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM
And that too!
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:45 PM
Well, child, the problem with never stating what you’re FOR, is that someone else might come along and determine that for themselves. Here, I’ll show you how it’s done. Reading your last post, I can only conclude that you’re AGAINST 999 because widget makers might illegally collude, and not pass on the tax savings to the consumers, who are now paying a 9% sales tax and are not enjoying a lower price for their product. So I guess you’re FOR keeping the current system, GO MITTENS! If you don’t like my assessment, blame yourself for never stating what you’re actually FOR.
I am FOR some kind of flat tax. Not necessarily just a sales tax, not necessarily just an income tax. I’ve been traditionally for some kind of exemption for dependents. I’m not FOR any other deductions. I think 999 is a good starting point for a discussion, and is better than the current system, no matter what. GO CAIN!
There, that wasn’t hard, was it. No ad hominems, no red herrings.
Your turn.
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 2:51 PM
I don’t believe I ever claimed that. I claimed they WOULD go down, and that the move would begin immediately.
You’re the one who’s been using the word proportional, not me.
Now if you can show me where I said that lower costs of production ALONE would offset the new sales tax, I’ll be happy to apologize for that particular mistake on my part.
You’re the one who’s been inserting “proportionality”. Let me make that perfectly clear to other readers, and that you’ve been inserting it intentionally and dishonestly.
——————
Aside: I am of the opinion that removing the all of the embedded taxes may actually get to that point eventually. But under Cain’s plan we’ll be into the FairTAX before that would happen.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 2:55 PM
Conservative Voice…I think I am more along the lines with you here. Bring down taxes significantly and go to a form or out right flat tax where all people pay the same. I know that there are 48-49% of the people not paying any taxes but it is time that WE all share a part of the AMERICAN experience!
on another note, as many Romney about his MA Healthcare, Perry’s Gardasil/illegal immigrant tuition, Paul’s stance on isolationism, Cain’s lack of political experience, etc We all know there are not perfect candidates out there and even one of my favorite Congressman Ryan Paul voted for TARP (like Romney, Cain, et al supported it) and people like Marco Rubio also has almost an identical stance on DREAM as Perry.
So we need to step back and see there is NO perfect person (even Reagan wasn’t) and I think our successes has possibly blinded us to what is attainable and we will lose the opportunity to improve WITH EACH ELECTION and instead swing for the fences and miss or get a double and fail to score the run.
g2825m on October 13, 2011 at 2:57 PM
oops, this “on another note, as many Romney about his MA Healthcare,”
was supposed to say “on another note, as many people are attacking…”
g2825m on October 13, 2011 at 2:59 PM
Dont forget
KucinichHuntsman!Freddy on October 13, 2011 at 3:03 PM
Romney is definitely a left-leaner in that he has adapted the “Say whatever the people want to hear.” whether he means it, or not…
stacman on October 13, 2011 at 3:05 PM
This is what infuriates me about those that do not like Romney as they make some statement as if that is what he believes and it is totally false!
Of all the candidates Romney should be the one that we know the most about because he has laid out his plans and policies for sometime. If you do not know them then go to his site at mittromney.com
one thing with some of you HA posters is that you would keep FACTCHECK fully employed with all the erroneous and half truths you apply to Romney.
Continue to bash him if you like (at our (conservative) overall detriment) BUT at least quote him fully and properly and then your comment is likely proven unfounded.
g2825m on October 13, 2011 at 3:06 PM
The analysis assumes the family continues to spend all their money, thus paying the full 9% sales tax.
By providing a disincentive to spend, families will have an incentive to increase savings. This provides a significant future benefit in retirement when you consider the future value of these savings.
The family will also have the incentive to substitute used goods (not taxed at all) for new goods. That will have a negative economic impact (to China), but we’ve all been told we are reckless consumerist pigs anyway.
I think the basis of analysis of the sales tax should be on the economic incentives and disincentives it provides, not on some static analysis looking solely at money-left-in-pocket.
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 3:08 PM
You’re right, I forgot to include the
Democrat,Manchurian, Alexi Huntsman Wang.Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 3:11 PM
To further my point, consider the basic principle that if you tax something you get less of it.
Tax income -> Less income -> Less economic activity
Tax spending -> More savings -> More capital to fuel economic growth AND future benefit
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 3:12 PM
It wasn’t my point in that point to quote Mittens, just to assume that particular poster is FOR Mittens.
But, I will show you that I know how to quote Mitten properly.
Did I pass the test on how to quote properly?
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 3:16 PM
You’re right. It would be hard.
And anything hard just isn’t worth doing.
More free food!
Squiggy on October 13, 2011 at 3:17 PM
You’re right, we should, but we don’t. Why don’t we, because he’s changed his ideology so many times we don’t know what to believe.
I’ve been to Mitt’s site, I’ve actually ripped a copy of it so I can search it with a bit more powerful tools than google.
Where’s Mitt’s plan of the day for taxation?
Does it include explanations of this:
I can guarantee you that you don’t want to even try to defend Romney’s statements and the plethora of positions he’s held in the near and long term.
Lemme change that. . . . you may want to defend . . . but I doubt you could defend them successfully without resulting to appeals to authority, misrepresentation or ad hominem.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 3:18 PM
In Update III, scenario 3 (employer keeps SS tax) is impossible!
Market forces will necessarily require employers to give back the SS tax since they will have to compete in the market for labor against other employers who do give it back in order to attract the best employees.
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 3:19 PM
Sorry, that came out snarkier than intended but you do present yourself in an authoritative way in your posts.
mrsmwp on October 13, 2011 at 3:31 PM
Great. So the meme will be that the evil Rethuglicans want the poor and middle class to have thrift store rags. The ads will just write themselves.
(full disclosure: My entire wardrobe comes from Family Thrift.)
mrsmwp on October 13, 2011 at 3:34 PM
Maybe what you interpret as “authorative” is simply my rejecting things like appeals to authority, appeals to emotion, misrepresentation, ad hominem and other forms of false argumentation.
If I can prove a point logically, I’ll make the argument. If I can’t I’ll stay out of it. I also admit when I’m wrong and apologize rather than simply disappear or misdirect.
How about we not worry about the personalities at all ‘tho and just focus on the validity of the arguments?
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 3:49 PM
Hmmm. Paul Ryan, now. Funny those I respect most, are coming out in favor of this plan. Those who have principles, who don’t give a flying Clinton how they’re portrayed by the Washington Post.
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM
that’s silly. The reason one could have supported Romney in 08 over McCain (and I did when it got down to it either being Romney or McCain – neither was my first choice) and now is that circumstances have changed significantly. I thought Romney was a squish in 08, but thought he was less of a squish than McCain.
All of the reasons I disliked Romney then are magnified this time around. So, just drop the silly Obama marching orders routine you keep spouting. Look, you think Romney is a good candidate. I get it. I disagree. But nobody can pretend he is a conservative. He may be mostly fiscally prudent and be running on a more conservative platform this time around, but he has a long history and it demonstrates that he is not a conservative at heart. He leans right, but he is not a conservative. And, he has no problem accepting big-gov’t programs.
Monkeytoe on October 13, 2011 at 4:05 PM
Who knows what Romney believes? To him principles are things you changed to get more votes.
Bill C on October 13, 2011 at 4:08 PM
You are living in fantasy land. Update III, scenario 3 is the most likely outcome. You are positing a market where there is perfect competition among businesses and perfect mobility among labor. Neither of those conditions will ever exist in the real world. Might as well just tell us that employers will pay employees more out of the goodness of their own hearts and give us a good laugh in the process. God knows the 9-9-9 plan is laughable enough.
AngusMc on October 13, 2011 at 4:17 PM
I don’t know if it means buying rags so much as maybe deferring purchase of that second personal watercraft or the granite countertops for the kitchen.
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 4:17 PM
Like Arthur Laffer, the “genius” who said just before the financial collapse that the economy was in the best shape it ever was, that there was no housing bubble, no credit bubble, and no severe trouble in sight? Brilliant man, that Laffer.
AngusMc on October 13, 2011 at 4:19 PM
You don’t seem to have much faith in the free market. Or understanding of it.
Sure, it will settle out somewhere between scenario 2 and 3. Closer to 2 I think, immediately on marginal hires and over time for everyone else.
If an employee is disinclined to seek the higher available compensation, then I guess he has made the optimal economic solution for his own situation.
If an employer doesn’t offer the higher compensation, he doesn’t attract employees. Crazy how the market works isn’t it?
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 4:27 PM
Yes, he is. And this is the part of my post where I have to guess what sends a thrill down your leg.
Mittens, again? Maybe Obama. I know! Carol Mosley-Brown! I still remember when Clinton was elected, and Mosley-Hyphen declared that the election of Clinton meant the end of Laffer Curves. Still one of the funniest quotes ever!
So you’re for the status quo, right?
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 4:30 PM
Perhaps you’d like to present the Ron Paul plan????
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 4:33 PM
Actually, we start filling in all the blank spaces in our budgets with numbers, one by one. Do you know what the last space to be filled in is? After sales, after materials costs, after payroll taxes, after insurance costs, after marketing costs, after, after…
Wage increases. It’s what’s left.
(Space reserved for howling leftist monkey to take offense that I refereed to many as howling leftist monkeys, due to so many attacks on this plan that have no basis in reality, just leftist talking points).
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 4:34 PM
jimver on October 13, 2011 at 4:50 PM
jimver on October 13, 2011 at 4:50 PM
Is there a point in there?
Or is your thesis that only Romney can defeat Obama? Demonstrably false
Or is it that Romney has an economic plan presented to the public? He couldn’t name one point of it in debate
What exactly is your point beyond that opponents will ridicule and call it a sham?
Ridicule and false claims are nothing new, especially here it seems.
So. . . do you have a logical point? or do you simply want to appeal to authority and emotion?
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 4:54 PM
I would like a link to that so I can read what he said in context. He certainly wouldn’t have been the first economist to have missed it, and unlike left wing economists I don’t remember him being an advocate for the sub prime market to help the poor, so I would like to read what he said in context.
The man played a big part in the Reagan boom, so he is a genius.
Daemonocracy on October 13, 2011 at 5:02 PM
I love these rhetorical questions…of course…Laffer thinks so, Ryan thinks so…pretty good creds…
right2bright on October 13, 2011 at 5:10 PM
He’s referring to Paulian meme about the debate with Schiffer and Laffer.
It’s taken wildly out of context by the Paulians.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 5:10 PM
You forgot to provide the link…that’s that will be helpful.
I never saw this article by him saying that the economy was great, and there was no housing bubble, or credit bubble…or are you making this up?
right2bright on October 13, 2011 at 5:12 PM
well, I don’t know, let me see, yes, he does have a detailed economic plan and it’s available on his website…funny, that most media outlets already commented extensively on his economic plan (of course with the left media criticising it the most), which makes me think he does have one indeed, unlike Cain…or maybe now Romney is supposed to read it out loud, on cameras, for the folk out there who can’t read…
here, in PDF format:
http://mittromney.com/sites/default/files/shared/BelieveInAmerica-PlanForJobsAndEconomicGrowth-Full.pdf
jimver on October 13, 2011 at 5:14 PM
Well, almost eight years ago he said there was no housing bubble…eight years ago…
right2bright on October 13, 2011 at 5:15 PM
Meet the new voodoo economics… 999.
I’m not making a statement as an economic expert; rather, my feeling is that any plan or reform that requires more than a day to explain is going to include some voodoo shenanigans hidden somewhere in it.
Personally, I prefer a simple flat, SMALL, tax with a small PERMANENT rate consumption tax. Period. No deductions whatsoever for anyone. True there will be some people who will still try to hide their income or buy on the black market; nonetheless, I do believe that if people feel taxation is fair and our money isn’t being squandered, you won’t see as much lawlessness as there is now. And there is…
Also, no communications or utility taxes. Limited property tax. Will accountants, cpas and bookkeepers go out of business? Of course they will. And they will have to cope with progress as did the blacksmiths and buggywhip makers and analog engineers. The idea of slowing progress to save an industry over a nation just boggles the mind.
greeneyedconservative on October 13, 2011 at 5:18 PM
Prices NEVER go down with a VAT tax thrown in the mix….I lived in Europe most of my life and everything is more expensive there than here, good, services, EVERYTHING, that’s the bottom line…I live in California currently and am used to paying high sales taxes, so I have a good reference point in terms of comparisons… yeah, well, Europe beats even California when it comes to that…I can’t think of a single thing (or service) that is cheaper there than here (or at least the same), not a single thing…I also lived in Canada long enough to get an idea, same story, everything is more expensive there, except maybe for the time when their currency was a little weaker than the US dollar, but once you threw in the exchange rate, everything was (and still is) still more expensive there…so, no idea why this VAT tax sends that thrill down your leg…we might as well go ahead with O’s tax raises, what’s the difference…at least he doesn’t eliminates funding for Social Security and Medicare as Cain’s 9-9-9 silliness would…
jimver on October 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM
While I don’t like the idea of even giving govt the idea that the populace supports a sales tax, the attacks on the 9% sales tax are a bit ridiculous. They all assume you spend every dime you take in, and you spend every dime on brand new goods. Money saved will be like half a 401K in that it isn’t taxed as much on the front end. Giving you more saving power.
clement on October 13, 2011 at 5:20 PM
As a consumer, my money should be taxed once: when I earn it *or* when I spend it. Giving “two streams” to the government is big trouble. The VAT, though, is the camel’s nose in the tent: what constitutional amendment limiting the VAT rate would realistically get through both houses?
the_souse on October 13, 2011 at 5:28 PM
well, yeah, for a stated ‘economic genius’ not to see the writing on the wall, when there were others who did, that’s a pretty big deal…what was so hard for a ‘genius’ to grasp that you could not have housing prices go up by 30% (and later on, in 2005, actually by 50%) in one year when the folks’ average incomes in this country stayed basically the same…the only logical explanation was that they were giving loans to people who clearly did not have the income to ever pay it back…it really doesn’t take a ‘genius’ to figure that those prices were artificially inflated and therefore conducive to a bubble…
jimver on October 13, 2011 at 5:29 PM
So is your biggest complaint the phantom VAT tax, or the elimination of the 15.3% tax rate, on everybody’s first $100k of income?
You know. Mrs. Rick Perry thinks it’s so silly, she’ll call 911 if it’s implemented.
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 5:32 PM
It’s not a VAT. A VAT is charged at each stage of production.
Cain’s tax is only applied to the “first sale to end user”.
I’ll give you time to revise as if your first premis is unsound, it knocks the legs out of the rest of your argument.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 5:33 PM
You seem to have some confusion on what is a federal tax and what are applied by the states and localities.
Would you care to revise?
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 5:34 PM
Ok, I’m not going to bother with your invalid points in this one, but rather I’d like to know who your candidate is so I can pull up their comments in 2003 and 2004 about housing.
Fair place to start yes?
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 5:37 PM
It’s not a VAT. I can’t state it any simpler than that without insulting some of you.
Please revise.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 5:38 PM
I’m shocked, thinking housing prices were going up upwards of 50% per year, you’d be for Mittens.
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 5:38 PM
Folks seem to overlook this and I made a case about it last night. The 999 plan not only can never become a 15,15,15 plan or any other increase because it makes everyone have skin in the game. It would be political suicide to raise the rates and the democrats would lose their voting block if they did. That is also why it is a political move and not just a fiscal one. It would destroy the democrat party as we know it. That my friends is worth consideration.
conservnut on October 13, 2011 at 5:39 PM
Well I guess it’s a good thing no one is talking about a VAT tax then.
It’s a sales tax assessed once on the final product, not a VAT tax that is assessed at every point of the production chain.
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 5:41 PM
Would you care to point out where Romney’s PLAN is for taxation within that omnibus document.
Lots of talk about what is wrong now, not much about what he’ll change.
I don’t want to take advantage of you if you haven’t actually read the link you posted.
Be back after the second round of therapy, look forward to your reply and hope you revise some of your earlier false statements.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 5:42 PM
100% Agree. In Canada, politicians compete on the basis of lowering the GST (their national sales tax).
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 5:43 PM
That is exactly what 9-9-9 is. No deductions, and a consumption tax. There is no guaranty ever that the rate is permanent.
jdkchem on October 13, 2011 at 5:45 PM
Good Lord, it’s ignorant comments like this that give Republicans/Conservatives a bad name.
News flash — families making $30-50K/yr aren’t making decisions about granite countertops and second boats. They’re deciding whether they can keep their health insurance or pay their electric bill.
mrsmwp on October 13, 2011 at 5:48 PM
Consider the difficulty in winning an election by campaigning for an increase in a tax *everyone* pays.
Molon Labe on October 13, 2011 at 5:49 PM
It won’t be too hard to make the first 9 go back to a tiered rate system to punish the rich and the second 9 to punish the evil corporations. Especially after a Dem pres/congress repeals the 2/3 rule. So 9-9-9 might end up 9(15/25/35/45)-35-9.
mrsmwp on October 13, 2011 at 5:54 PM
It’s a little early to be hitting the Jack Daniel’s that hard, missy.
Midas on October 13, 2011 at 5:57 PM
Takeaway from this post:
We have, what, FIVE updates trying to figure out the tax liability of a hypothetical couple making $50,000.
And we’re positing whether Herman Cain is going to open a Pandora’s Box.
Pandora’s Box was opened long ago with the 16th Amendment. That we’ve had multiple updates detailing the excruciating headache just in figuring our tax liability should tell you a simplification of the system will save a lot of money – and cause a massive shift in allocation of personal and government resources from calculating taxes to more productive activities.
BKennedy on October 13, 2011 at 6:12 PM
Another note re: the federal government being in every transaction:
This is hogwash. Businesses already collect state taxes. The only thing a national sales tax would do is make them calculate that tax into their prices and send that portion to the federal government.
The information needed to implement a national sales tax is already being tracked in every state that has a state sales tax, and even the states that don’t have a state sales tax still have a record of every purchase, work order, or invoice so they can keep their inventory fresh.
BKennedy on October 13, 2011 at 6:17 PM
We wouldn’t have those updates if they’d have been honest in their initial assessment. They started from the position that “it’s bad” and then misapplied the rates and made assumptions not backed by calculated facts.
It was only when people challenged that the “updates” began appearing.
Very similar to Ed’s column this week where straight out of the box he declares it a VAT, which is categorically and empirically false on it’s face.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 6:41 PM
Where I live if you make 50K and don’t have two boats, one for fishing and one for the family, people think you’re a yankee.
I’d be careful trying to stereotype people making 30 to 50K as some poor fools trying to scrape together a plate of dog food in the dark.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 6:44 PM
I’ll bet on the 53 percenters not having much of a problem taxing the moochers.
I’ll also bet a good part of the people who don’t pay taxes now wish they could become part of that 53 percent income level that do.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 6:47 PM
The best thing I heard all day is when Anita Perry said when she hears 999, she wants to call 911. ROFL Smart lady!!
bluefox on October 13, 2011 at 8:04 PM
Of course…what they should have done was make the “common sense” arguments by supporters that prices will drop 20% overnight, and everyone’s boss will at the same time instantly give them a 10% raise!
AngusMc on October 13, 2011 at 8:15 PM
Does telling obvious lies make you feel better about yourself?
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 8:24 PM
Jason, you are missing my point. I’ll try again.
I use the expression “direct proportionality” simply because Cain himself typically says that corporations will pass their tax savings on to the consumer, the inference being that they will do so completely. My point is that is a questionable assumption. Some will, some won’t, and some will to some degree or another. It is this uncertainty that I am trying to address. I’m not saying there won’t be any savings passed on, but that it is impossible to predict to what extent they will be passed on. If the experience we had this summer with the airlines is any indication, there is little reason to be optimistic.
We are speaking here of the uncertainty that accompanies only one aspect of the problem. The economy is a system that is simply too large and too complex to make the kinds of assumptions of which you seem to be so certain, and when you are talking about people who live on the edge of their limited financial resources it is reckless to make these kinds of assumptions. If it was as easy and certain as you seem to think it is, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now.
For what it is worth, I am all in favor of a vastly simplified system that eliminates the thousands upon thousands of rules and regulations, but I am reluctant to turn on a dime and replace everything with a system that has never been tried, let alone proven, when peoples lives are hanging in the balance. For example, why not reduce the currently available exemptions and deductions by 20% per year, and reduce the effective tax rate to compensate as you go, until you get to what is simply a progressive tax rate based on income of all sorts, pure and simple, without deductions of any kind? Leave the deduction for interest on currently held mortgages, and reduce it on new mortgages by ten per cent per year going forward until it is gone.
Please don’t waste your time ripping the particulars to shreds; my point is that you can make significant changes in a gradual manner that allows people to prepare for the transition. That way, if something isn’t working, you can make adjustments without turning the economy and peoples’ finances and their lives upside down.
In any case, we are not even addressing the other side of the tax nightmare, which is that the government is spending beyond its means and beyond rationality, and choking economic growth with metastasizing regulatory expansion and its costs (real and opportunity). No amount of tax reform will solve those problems, which must be addressed simultaneously. The government must stop doing many of the unnecessary things it is doing, and it must do what is necessary with far greater efficiency.
One of the main reasons the economy is stalled is that businesses and investors have no way to predict what their costs and taxes will be going forward. We need to make changes, and drastic ones, but we need to do so in a way that provides predictability and reassures individuals and businesses that if problems arise adjustments can be made without turning everything upside down and doing more harm than good, despite our best intentions.
I used to know everything. Somewhere along the way I realized that the more I learned the less I knew. No one can predict the future with certainty. Making radical changes to a system as complex as our economy is fraught with dangers, and it is grossly unfair to ask those people who live from check to check to take the greatest risks.
novaculus on October 13, 2011 at 8:29 PM
No ad hominems? You begin by referring to me as a child. I’m done with you.
novaculus on October 13, 2011 at 8:32 PM
I’ll leave your particulars alone, I’ve more than answered them above. I will however note that ANY Republican coming in in 2012, most likely has 2 years to reverse our current course and enact a plan.
If he or she cannot get a plan on the books and in the works in 2 years, they have a new Congress to face.
A little change here, a little change there, let’s go back and adjust, is what has been happening for decades, it’s why we have a tax code that not even tax accountants can understand fully.
A comprehensive plan allows businesses to write their budgets and get back to work. Your suggestion forces them to keep writing and re-writing. Making new plans with each adjustment. I’m not going to hire if I don’t know what coming, your suggestion leaves more uncertainty for the future of business than Cain’s does.
The economy is already upside down, the damage is done and we’re near the bottom. NOW is the time for drastic change in the tax structure. Small measures will only prolong the pain. Make the change, get it over with, put it behind us and we can all go back to work.
If it doesn’t work, if businesses and people hate it, in 2016, they can make another go at it.
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 8:48 PM
Your grasp of word meanings is about as good as your initial grasp of Cain’s plan. Maybe you wouldn’t get so frustrated if you just typed up something like 8:29 in the first place, instead of just making up things.
Life is like that.
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 8:55 PM
I’ve read enough comments to see that this 999 is a very complicated idea. I thot it was to be simple. The National Sales Tax is going to increase taxes since it’s on spending. I can’t imagine paying that kind of tax on food and other living necessities. Those on Fixed Incomes and the working poor will suffer the most. State sales tax Plus 9%? WOW, that is a deal breaker right there without all of the other.
I don’t know who put this idea together, but they need to rethink it and make some revisions in my opinion.
bluefox on October 13, 2011 at 8:56 PM
novaculus on October 13, 2011 at 8:32 PM
Hi, just wanted to let you know I read your one post October 13, 2011 at 12:39 PM and agree. Appreciated you listing those items.
I’ve seen the nasty tones of certain ones here on HA, especially this thread. Insults and attitudes that really belong on a different website.
bluefox on October 13, 2011 at 9:00 PM
Yes, I’m nasty to those that just make things up. It’s what I expect out of the left, and why I made that comment.
Making things up is a cowardly act, fully worthy of the left, and fully worthy of other websites.
MNHawk on October 13, 2011 at 9:15 PM
Like many others, you are forgetting the prebate that will cover the sales taxes on basics for lower income people.
Elisa on October 13, 2011 at 9:17 PM
Thank you both for your many fine posts today.
I couldn’t agree with you more. Actually I graduated in Accounting decades ago, worked for a big eight firm, took off some years when my kids were little and have worked part-time for a CPA for 15 yrs doing taxes.
And I don’t understand all the tax laws. Some make no sense. They are always changing. Ridiculously intricate and confusing. And the laws are not fair and are a detriment to our economy and our society and have become a piggy bank for politicians to give away goodies to voters.
How fair and productive is the new Sch M that gives some people who owe no tax and pay not tax money back? It’s not money back; it’s a welfare check.
Elisa on October 13, 2011 at 9:25 PM
* pay no tax money back
Elisa on October 13, 2011 at 9:26 PM
We need something radical and we need change.
Any major problems with the plan can be tweaked or changed.
Elisa on October 13, 2011 at 9:28 PM
I am unable to find any reference to the “prebate” you mention on the Herman Cain 999 web page. Can you please tell me where that comes from?
HTL on October 13, 2011 at 9:34 PM
WE HAVE TO BACK the most CONSERVATIVE
candidate who’s not a nutjob (we know who that is) or just someone who’d like to be president for just getting a leg up in the political world and most importantly we all need to toss out anyone who is unelectable and has baggage that Obama’s war chest can destroy.
Cain is the only hero who can win at this point and if you middle of the road people want to argue every little point and elect someone like McCain.. we are all fusk#d.
Romney vs Obama 49 v 51 same as 08
Bachman vs Obama 40 v 60
Newt vs Obama 49 v 51 same as 08
Herman Cain 52+ v 48-
can’t you see it?
I was wrong in some of my early pics .. I didn’t know that MB and RP would have such a blank showing at the debates.. but I know there is a post of mine some where last spring for Cain!
TPP!
amend2 on October 13, 2011 at 9:37 PM
And don’t forget that Cain (like Perry and Newt) will get rid of Obamacare, cut spending across the government and start to straighten out Social Security. (and with Cain we get to hear him say “Chilean” over and over. lol I love how he says that.)
He is not only going to do 999. He will straighten out the mess we have.
Besides being a math genius and a sound business man and CEO, Cain is a SALESMAN. He will know how to sell this to the American people when the time comes and he will know how to deal with those in Washington he will need to pass this. Of course there will be opposition (especially from liberal Dems who wouldn’t help any of our conservatives legislate), but he has the skills to overcome opposition.
Elisa on October 13, 2011 at 9:40 PM
He himself has mentioned it in several interviews. I will see if I can find a video of one. Might not have time though.
It is also in any description of the general Fair Tax that many been advocating for several years. I have been more of a Flat tax person, but I like the Fair tax. It is certainly an improvement to what we have now.
Elisa on October 13, 2011 at 9:42 PM
No, Jason, I’m not confused… I was just free-balling and in a hurry, trying to share many random thoughts in a minute. Sorry if I offended you.
greeneyedconservative on October 13, 2011 at 9:50 PM
It is simple. VERY simple. Compare it to the 17000 pages of current tax code and that will become clear.
Cain’s plan probably won’t actually increase the taxes you pay, BUT, it will allow you to see almost every dollar you spend in taxes so it will feel like you are paying more when you actually won’t.
Here’s a simple fact for you. I used to own a brewery. It cost me .17 to .22 cents to brew a pint, I paid over .40 cents in taxes on that same pint. When I put it in a bottle, it cost me an extra 20 to 23 cents per bottle, and an additional 27 cents in taxes. When I shipped that pint to the liquor store a block away it cost me another 10 cents on that pint.
That is JUST the federal taxes on that pint. The state and in some cases the locality jumped in too.
You already pay taxes on food and drink, you just don’t know it.
A FairTAX (Phase 2) of Cain’s plan cuts those taxes I listed by 90% and under that scenario, I would pass those savings along by being able to cut the price of that pint by at least 50 percent. That’s why a FairTAX, and Cain’s 999 plan which brings us to a FairTAX is such a fave of manufacturers.
Our companies have also built and operated TFE (Tetrafluoroethylene) plants both here and abroad. Our plant in India makes money hand over fist, our plant here is used for testing and development (we CANNOT make that plant profitable because of double/triple/quadruple taxation.) A FairTAX would allow us to make money on that plant and we could more than triple the amount of workers at that plant if we weren’t taxed and taxed again at every stage.
Each of those businesses wastes over 50K a year just in tax prep!!!
A FairTAX or even the 999 could probably allow us to bring tax prep in house with the accounting staffe we already have/had.
AS for Seniors and those on Fixed incomes, the FairTAX and the 999 plan would be a great bonus to them. Here’s a whitepaper on it, it’s easy to read and may open your eyes to how simple it actually is.
http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/The_FairTax_benefits_seniors_11-7-06.pdf
Jason Coleman on October 13, 2011 at 9:50 PM
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