Oh my: Cain 30, Romney 22, Gingrich 15, Perry 14

posted at 5:30 pm on October 12, 2011 by Allahpundit

Alternate headline: “Republicans really, really, really don’t want to nominate Mitt Romney.”

Strong Tea Party support has Cain in the driver’s seat nationally, just as he has been on our last four individual state polls. With non-Tea Party Republicans Romney actually leads Cain 29-27. But with the Tea Party crowd Cain is getting 39% with Gingrich at 16%, Perry at 14%, and Romney in 4th place at 13%. Romney doesn’t need to win the Tea Partiers to be the Republican nominee. But he does need to finish better than 4th with them.

There are indications within the poll that Cain’s stay at the top could be short lived. Only 30% of his supporters are solidly committed to him with 70% saying they might still go on to support someone else. Those numbers aren’t much better for Romney, who only has 31% of his supporters solidly committed, or Gingrich, who only has 34% solidly committed. The strongest base of support among the Republican front runners- even if it’s shrinking- is Perry’s- 48% of his remaining backers say they’ll definitely vote for him. Overall 70% of Republicans are either undecided right now or open to voting for someone different than who they’re with now- that signals an extremely wide open race…

If the race came down to a two way match between Cain and Romney, Cain leads 48-36. Cain would pick up Bachmann, Gingrich, Perry, and Santorum’s supporters. Romney would get Huntsman and Paul’s. Cain would absolutely crush Perry in a head to head, 55-27.

NBC’s teasing its own poll to come later today by noting that Cain leads Romney two-to-one among tea partiers and that Cain/Perry/Bachmann combined continue to outpoll the presumably “inevitable” nominee Romney. But then, that’s the problem, isn’t it? There’s no way for anyone to consolidate that combined vote and make it a two-way race before Iowa. Perry’s too well-funded to drop out before then and Cain, I think, is too popular by now to revert to nonfactor status, which means they (and, to a lesser extent, Bachmann) are destined to split the conservative vote in the caucuses while Romney cleans up among centrists. If most Iowa conservatives break for Cain and he either wins outright or finishes a strong second to Romney, Perry will be finished and then you’ll have a two-man race in time for South Carolina. But by that point, Romney will almost certainly have won New Hampshire and Nevada and will be raking in mountains of establishment money to ensure that the most electable option in the field is well armed for the rest of the primaries.

Even if Cain pulls the upset in South Carolina — which isn’t impossible given its social conservatism and Cain’s southern roots — how does he compete with Romney in a state as expensive as Florida and in the dozens of primaries that’ll follow that? The hard, cold fact is this: Perry is the only guy in the field who’s potentially capable of fighting a money war with Romney, and after his latest underwhelming debate performance, I’m not so sure how capable he still is. Who’s excited to donate to him these days? He’s got wealthy friends in Texas, but beyond that, which Republican multi-millionaire at this point would rather bet big on him than on Romney? (Romney’s odds of the nomination are at 69.8 percent on InTrade as I write this; Perry’s are at 9.8 percent, just two-tenths of a point ahead of Cain’s.) And which grassroots conservative small donor would rather throw a hundred bucks of hard-earned money at Perry right now than at the charismatic underdog Cain? I can’t wait to see the fundraising numbers next quarter.

Via Greg Hengler, here’s a “3 a.m. phone call” compare-and-contrast between Cain and Gingrich on the subject of how they’d handle the Iranian terror plot. This sort of thing — plus the fact that his 9-9-9 plan has alienated tax warriors like Grover Norquist — could knock Cain back enough by the time Iowa arrives to restore Perry to frontrunner status in the all-important “Not Romney” competition. Problem is, I have no confidence that Perry’s answer to this question would be any better than Cain’s. And, giving how Perry tends to avoid interviews, he probably doesn’t have any confidence either. Exit question: Second look at Gingrich?

Blowback

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Why not use the FLAT Tax instead of the FAIR Tax?

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM

One reason to prefer the flat tax is that it would get the government totally out of the business of tracking citizens by income. Instead of beating the rich up for making so much money, the liberals would be begging them to get out and spend even more.

flyfisher on October 12, 2011 at 8:26 PM

God. So you don’t like one of Cain’s “9s”. Would you rather have Romney’s big stew of nothing. Cain offers the Chilean SS model. Romney offers a big can of nothing. “999″ is an idea.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:26 PM

OMG what NEWT/SARAH? I mean think it out especially on debates and ability to work together…it would be like a Father/Daughter Dream Team!

RedLizard64 on October 12, 2011 at 8:27 PM

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 8:19 PM

Actually, several former Iron Curtain countries have done something like this and with a lower rate. Here is what those countries have in common, a senior official who was a Reagan staffer expat from those countries.

Kermit on October 12, 2011 at 8:27 PM

People in this thread have said that they have either outright forgotten Newt’s baggage or have forgiven it. Sitting on the AGW couch, supporting Dede, lambasting Ryan’s budget… yet, I’m supposed to believe that Perry cannot overcome “don’t have a heart”? LOL. When people see Cain for the empty stalking horse that he is, when they continue to dislike Romney (that’s not going to change, btw), and they realize Newt hasn’t got the $$, they’ll come back to Perry. Perry’s learned some lessons and is rebuilding big time.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on October 12, 2011 at 8:27 PM

Why not use the FLAT Tax instead of the FAIR Tax?

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM
One reason to prefer the flat FLAT tax is that it would get the government totally out of the business of tracking citizens by income. Instead of beating the rich up for making so much money, the liberals would be begging them to get out and spend even more.

flyfisher on October 12, 2011 at 8:26 PM

Big typo

flyfisher on October 12, 2011 at 8:27 PM

I like Cain but that was night and day.

AshleyTKing on October 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM

I just got an email from Chris Christie urging me to support Romney.

Thing is, the email was sent to an address I haven’t used since 2007.

2007.

And I NEVER subscribed to Romney’s emails…not for the last election cycle…not ever.

Good grief.

powerpro on October 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 8:15 PM
What is the link to his plan?
Do you agree that getting rid of the payroll tax would be something that ordinary working Americans could understand in exchange for a flat sales tax?

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM

Why not use the FLAT Tax instead of the FAIR Tax?

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM

I’ve always supported the flat tax and have strongly opposed the “fair” tax (in “” because it’s not fair).

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on October 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM

Why not use the FLAT Tax instead of the FAIR Tax?

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 8:13 PM
One reason to prefer the flat FLAT FAIR TAX is that it would get the government totally out of the business of tracking citizens by income. Instead of beating the rich up for making so much money, the liberals would be begging them to get out and spend even more.

flyfisher on October 12, 2011 at 8:26 PM
Big typo

flyfisher on October 12, 2011 at 8:27 PM

Okay, I’m tired.

flyfisher on October 12, 2011 at 8:29 PM

Yeah especially after the way he tried to torpedo the Ryan budget when it came out.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:24 PM

Yep… but, IIRC the question was about forcing the change against the will of the people and I think Newt meant that we shouldn’t make a change this big without winning the people over to the plan.

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:29 PM

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 8:22 PM

I support the idea of a FLAT TAX as well, but Cain lays out point 1 of Phase 2 and certainly if the FLAT can be shown to beat the FAIR. . . that’s what Congress is for, right?

As for “because other countries do it”. . . . is that your actual reasoning for dismissing the FairTAX?

Jason Coleman on October 12, 2011 at 8:30 PM

And I NEVER subscribed to Romney’s emails…not for the last election cycle…not ever.

Good grief.

powerpro on October 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM

Never subscribed to Romney but I’ve gotten some emails and snail mail from him asking for money.

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:30 PM

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:28 PM

http://www.hermancain.com/999plan

Jason Coleman on October 12, 2011 at 8:31 PM

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:29 PM
That is a generous interpretation of a gaffe. Obama’s team won’t be so generous. Just saying. That said, I like Gingrich, but he isn’t my first choice.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:32 PM

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:30 PM

Did you send him some :-)

MJBrutus on October 12, 2011 at 8:32 PM

Doesn’t taxing consumption sound more reasonable then taxing income? We used to tax consumption before the income tax. Cain’s inclusion of the income tax avoids liberal criticism that he isn’t taxing the rich. Income taxation seem ridiculous in its entirety as it’s justification is entirely progressive. Taxing consumption of goods is justified by the need to maintain the roads, trains, skies, by which they are transported.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:33 PM

Jason Coleman on October 12, 2011 at 8:31 PM
Thanks.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:34 PM

Buy Danish on October 12, 2011 at 8:09 PM

It’s NOT hindsight, he should have made a stand against the individual mandates and the state interference – making a stand is something he is incapable of doing. Bush did not force Romney into Romneycare, utterly ridiculous, he went down that path willingly and cried that he had no choice. Force the Dems to pass their single payer model; for a true Conservative there are certain lines that must NOT be crossed and they do not coordinate or comply with statists on such a major portion of our economy in any way once that line is crossed. He should have forced the Blue state to be blue and go over his head, objections and free market alternatives. Romneycare is failing as it is and it would have been better for Romney to have been the Governor who fought single payer and lost than the complicit hack who laid its foundation.

Romney still defends his health care plan despite the jack in premiums, cost overruns and flooded emergency rooms. He is proud of Romneycare; out of all the flip flops he has made throughout his career it is the one area he has stuck with.

You keep playing with your excuses, the rest of us see Romney for what he is and it’s why he can’t break the glass ceiling in the polling. 6 years of campaigning and he’s losing to a political nobody.

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 8:35 PM

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:33 PM
Do NOT try to be reasonable. Wilsonian Democrats will burn this country down rather than give up on the Progressive tax system as the ideal system. Figuratively of course.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:36 PM

Did you send him some :-)

MJBrutus on October 12, 2011 at 8:32 PM

Ahem. He’s rich. He’s doing just fine. He can pay his own way to the White House.

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:38 PM

Aslans Girl on October 12, 2011 at 8:27 PM

If he were a silver tongued devil it would all go away. Maybe he’ll get some substance out to the public that will compensate.

Cindy Munford on October 12, 2011 at 8:39 PM

:)

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:39 PM

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:38 PM

And with Christie’s endorsement among others he has lots of rich friends too :-)

MJBrutus on October 12, 2011 at 8:39 PM

And with Christie’s endorsement among others he has lots of rich friends too :-)

MJBrutus on October 12, 2011 at 8:39 PM

Exactly. My poor butt ain’t sending him money.

El_Terrible on October 12, 2011 at 8:41 PM

What has the Congress done to manipulate the Tax Code?

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 7:56 PM
That’s a joke, right? Please tell me you are not that stupid.

You keep telling people to go educate themselves about 999 and then you come up with that statement!

You lost any credibility with me that you may have had. Goodnight.

BierManVA on October 12, 2011 at 8:07 PM

I asked that because you said The current tax code is manipulated daily by Congress. Maybe Congress will decide tomorrow to raise your withholdings. What then?

Red herring

BierManVA on October 12, 2011 at 6:07 PM

I wasn’t aware that Congress was manipulating the tax code daily and just wanted to know how and wanted you to expand on what you meant.

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 8:42 PM

If he were a silver tongued devil it would all go away. Maybe he’ll get some substance out to the public that will compensate.

Cindy Munford on October 12, 2011 at 8:39 PM

Substance is coming in two days with his policy speech. Of course, he’s already got that, his record is substance enough for me.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on October 12, 2011 at 8:45 PM

Can somebody articulate to me how Romney is going to fix the tax code?

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:47 PM

I don’t know why I listen to Bill O’Reilly ever, but sometimes I just turn it on out of habit, and I am fuming at him right now!

So according to him on his show tonight, those of us that listen to Talk Radio are just Conservatives, and we’re just a small segment of the voters. This statement brought on by his realization that we don’t like Mitt Romney, and oh yeah, just because he and his guest say so, Perry is done.

I couldn’t disagree more! They and the rest of the Media just can’t stand the thought of us actually nominating a Conservative that represents us and not them and the elite Washington snobs! It just makes my blood boil.

I will vote for Cain, Perry, Gingrich, Santorum, or Bachmann. They are all fine Conservatives and could all handle the job of President of the United States, and do a damn good job of it!!! I am determined that the Republican candidate in this election will not be a RINO who has been selected by the Democrat Media this time around!!!!

Susanboo on October 12, 2011 at 8:47 PM

And with Christie’s endorsement among others he has lots of rich friends too :-)

MJBrutus on October 12, 2011 at 8:39 PM

Rich, RINO friends. Big deal. Christie’s a major turn-off.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on October 12, 2011 at 8:48 PM

Can somebody articulate to me how Romney is going to fix the tax code?

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:47 PM

Romney can’t articulate how Romney is going to fix the tax code.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 8:50 PM

Can somebody articulate to me how Romney is going to fix the tax code?

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:47 PM

Today’s Wednesday… even if you got an answer, Romney will change it by Thursday.

-Aslan’s Girl

Aslans Girl on October 12, 2011 at 8:52 PM

How close are the polls in Michigan and Pennsylvania with Obama and Generic Republican? I just think in those 2 states and perhaps others Cain may pull enough of the black vote from Obama to make the difference in places like Detroit and Philly. Just a thought.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:52 PM

Man primary season cannot end soon enough, everybody is nuts right now. Rush and Mark and the people on here are “anybody but Romney,” but oh by the way Perry is a terrible debater and is losing steam. Both said that today. So who in the heck are we supposed to vote for? No one seem like they can beat Romney right now. Cain doesnt have money or organization. I like Romney, apparently Im the only one, but I just dont see a good alternative in this field at all.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 8:53 PM

Oooh, guess who support Herman Cain’s plan? Guess, guess, guess? Art Laffer. Yep. Can somebody please email me Romney’s plan to reform the tax code? I cannot find it anywhere.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:55 PM

Can somebody articulate to me how Romney is going to fix the tax code?

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:47 PM

Or Perry or Gingrich?

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:55 PM

http://www.hermancain.com/999plan
Jason Coleman on October 12, 2011 at 8:31 PM

Is that really all there is? Because there’s nothing there, except the makings of a bad powerpoint presentation, with at least one egregious typo to indicate how little thought and/or effort actually went into it. And why it hasn’t been fixed at this late date is even more grounds for concern.

I have been suspicious of the 9-9-9 plan from the very beginning, because (1) there seems to be no documentation about assumptions, revenues, or impacts, and Herman won’t provide any, (2) how convenient is it that the magical solution requires 9% taxation in each of its three major categories and (3) Cain has always been quite evasive about where it came from in the first place.

The fact that he lied last night about the first and only person who has been willing to have his name associated with this travesty (someone upthread very amusingly called him “Richie from Accounting”; Cain himself called him an “economist”, which he is NOT), just spells “bumpy road ahead”. His typical response to critics who try and point out that the numbers don’t add up is “your analysis is incorrect”, but he doesn’t provide his own analysis at all, so why are we supposed to believe him?

And what the heck are “economic empowerment zones”, anyway? We’re going to eliminate deductions, and then start allowing them again, immediately, for this unspecified new category of favored economic activities?

By the way, forget about used cars and the sales tax. What about houses?

This plan, with no details, no supporting data and no chance of passing, is just a distraction. But without it, what does Herman Cain have left?

HTL on October 12, 2011 at 8:56 PM

The typos are really cringeworthy. Cain needs to spiff up his site pronto.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 8:58 PM

I like Romney, apparently Im the only one, but I just dont see a good alternative in this field at all.

I am sold on Romney so why do I keep commenting on alternatives?

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 8:53 PM

FIFY… and no need to thank me.

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 8:59 PM

No one seem like they can beat Romney right now.
nswider on October 12, 2011 at 8:53 PM
Exactly how many voters have voted so far?

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:59 PM

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 7:07 PM
What’s with these special “Empowerment Zones” in Cain’s 999 plan? Hmm?

Punchenko on October 12, 2011 at 7:22 PM

I’m not sure yet. I wasn’t aware of Empowerment Zones until someone posted this link: but I haven’t read it all yet to compare it to other info of his plan.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/sep/26/facts-about-herman-cains-9-9-9-tax-plan/

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 8:59 PM

Empowerment zones are like China’s industrial regions where taxation is eliminated in exchange for investment and employment.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 9:00 PM

This plan, with no details, no supporting data and no chance of passing, is just a distraction. But without it, what does Herman Cain have left?

HTL on October 12, 2011 at 8:56 PM

With it, Herman Cain has advanced more substantive tax policy than any of his fellow candidates have.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:01 PM

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 8:59 PM

Im sold on Romney, because I dont see an alternative.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:01 PM

But without it, what does Herman Cain have left?

HTL on October 12, 2011 at 8:56 PM

Hmmm… you might be on to something.

I believe Rick Perry is getting a second look.

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 9:01 PM

Gingrich is in 3rd? Good. You know, he may actually yet pull this off! Wouldn’t that be just grand!

JellyToast on October 12, 2011 at 9:01 PM

Im sold on Romney statism, because I dont see an alternative.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:01 PM

Might as well just come out and say it, then.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:03 PM

For all of you Willard Mitt Romney fans. Please defend this.

carbon_footprint on October 12, 2011 at 9:04 PM

Bluefox, heres hoping for a good debate b/t Perry romney Cain and newt

cmsinaz on October 12, 2011 at 7:49 PM

Yes, I hope so too. The post debate remarks by Gov. Perry were very good, as he does very well when he is off script.

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM

All this criticism of 9-9-9 is a pile of horse manure.

If Cain was elected and got the mandate from the voters to implement such a plan, it would be 1000 giant leaps in the right direction.

CMON! It would be a feat of monumental proportions.

I’m for it. Even if it means we need to fight future battles to protect the original intent of 9-9-9. ANY tax code reform, regardless of how well conceived, would require the vigilance of the tax-paying voting public to protect it from the thieves in Washington.

For crying out loud, if we could elect a President that could pull off eliminating the IRS and the current tax code, and we don’t do it, then we haven’t got a hair on our pathetic little asses.

Saltysam on October 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM

Empowerment zones are like China’s industrial regions where taxation is eliminated in exchange for investment and employment.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 9:00 PM

In other words, they are unworkable white elephants which are ripe for abuse. Kinda like Perry’s Technology initiative. They are dime a dzoen in India and most of them failures on the ground but function great revenue for those with connections.

promachus on October 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM

For all of you Willard Mitt Romney fans. Please defend this.

carbon_footprint on October 12, 2011 at 9:04 PM

Dontcha know Carbon…

Im sold on Romney, because I dont see an alternative.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:01 PM

Some Mitt voters aren’t even attempting to defend the indefensible. Mitt’s just the best we can come up with or something.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:06 PM

Empowerment zones are like China’s industrial regions where taxation is eliminated in exchange for investment and employment.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 9:00 PM

And that concept has been used in the United States for years.

Knucklehead on October 12, 2011 at 9:06 PM

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:03 PM

Which policy that Romney advocates for the Country would you say is an example of statism? Its always striking to how angry the anti Romney crowd is, theres 20 of you to two or three Romney supporters. I guess you guys just want to sit around and agree with each other. Who do you support, I would love to know, because reading these comment sections the chosen anti Romney true Republican savior pretty much changes on a weekly basis.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:07 PM

Some Mitt voters aren’t even attempting to defend the indefensible. Mitt’s just the best we can come up with or something.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:06 PM

a

I see, much like McCain in ’08. Why, we can’t lose!

carbon_footprint on October 12, 2011 at 9:08 PM

Or Perry or Gingrich?

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 8:55 PM

Gingrich:

JOBS AND PROSPERITY PLAN: LOWERING TAXES

First, I pledge to veto any tax increase. American families and businesses deserve certainty and predictability, and I will work to make permanent all current rates of taxation that would otherwise increase automatically in 2013.

My Jobs and Prosperity plan will then make four major tax cuts:
Reduce the Corporate Tax to 12.5%. Reducing the corporate income tax, currently the second highest in the developed world, will make America the number one destination in the world for foreign investment and the millions of jobs that will accompany this designation. Most of the $1.4 trillion in profits locked up overseas by the current 35% tax rate will come home to be reinvested and distributed at a 12.5% rate.

Abolish the Capital Gains Tax. Lowering the cost of investment means hundreds of thousands of more jobs will be created. It happens every time we lower the capital gains tax. At a zero percent rate, hundreds of billions of dollars in new investments will pour into the United States to create new firms and build new factories.

Abolish the Death Tax. This law is economically misguided and morally indefensible, and it is time for the government to stop destroying family wealth. Abolishing the death tax ensures family-owned businesses can focus on creating jobs and growing rather than on dealing with tax law.

100% Expensing. We want American workers to have the most modern and most productive equipment in the world, and we can encourage this development by allowing companies to write off all their new equipment in one year.

JOBS AND PROSPERITY PLAN: TAX SIMPLIFICATION WITH AN OPTIONAL FLAT TAX

My legislation will also include an optional flat tax. All tax filers would be given the option to pay their income taxes subject to current income tax provisions or to pay under a lower single rate of taxation with limited deductions. A revenue neutral flat tax reform would save hundreds of billions of dollars in compliance costs each year and would eliminate the need for taxes on savings, dividends, and capital gains.

A faster, flatter, fairer tax structure would be simple: tax returns could be done on a single page. Subtract from your income a standard deduction and deductions for charity and home ownership, multiply the result by a fixed single rate of taxation, and the process is over. Gone will be the stressful hours spent figuring out whether your military service or marital status will adversely affect your return. No more headaches trying to determine where estimated tax payments go. Tax preparation fees could be money spent on something more rewarding.

Such an optional flat tax system would create a new standard deduction, which would be above the established poverty level, meaning an optional flat tax would not unfairly target the poor.
An optional flat tax would eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax. And if a person had twice as much income as another, he or she would be taxed twice as much. Furthermore, a single rate tax structure would eliminate taxes on savings, capital gains, and dividends. Saving would increase and businesses would expand to create new jobs.

Gingrich 2012

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 9:08 PM

Gingrich 2012

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 9:08 PM

Geez, so glad I’m not the only one.
Read it people. It is there for your consumption.

carbon_footprint on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

For crying out loud, if we could elect a President that could pull off eliminating the IRS and the current tax code, and we don’t do it, then we haven’t got a hair on our pathetic little asses.

Saltysam on October 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM

And I think it’s worth repeating: Whatever you think about the merits of 9-9-9 — and I do believe it is a problematic proposal, to say the least — Herman Cain has done more to advance debate over actual tax policy than any extant candidate has. I can only speak for myself, but that’s worth something to me. Besides, it’s not like President Herman Cain could implement 9-9-9 without sending it through Congress first.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

Saltysam on October 12, 2011 at 9:05 PM
Fear of the unknown. Just imagine what those poor little lobbyists will have to do for a living if they can’t get paid to protect their clients loopholes. Level the playing field and make it bigger to include the 47 percent of folks paying no income tax currently.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

I would simply add that those criticizing 999 while simultaneously advocating for a candidate whose economic plans are nonexistent are leaving themselves wide open.

KingGold on October 12, 2011 at 9:11 PM

Gingrich 2012

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 9:08 PM

I see the Bachmann Cain gambit to split conservatives is not working well for Team Romney… so it’s now Gingrich?

LOL… nice try.

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 9:11 PM

Which policy that Romney advocates for the Country would you say is an example of statism? Its always striking to how angry the anti Romney crowd is, theres 20 of you to two or three Romney supporters. I guess you guys just want to sit around and agree with each other. Who do you support, I would love to know, because reading these comment sections the chosen anti Romney true Republican savior pretty much changes on a weekly basis.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:07 PM

Your claim that Romney is not a statist is mere argument-by-assertion, and I reject it out of hand. I will not base my vote strictly on stump speeches.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:13 PM

Gingrich 2012

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 9:08 PM

thanks. It looks like it has some similarities with 9-9-9. Except that it is likely a little too wordy for the average Joe voter.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 9:13 PM

KingGold on October 12, 2011 at 9:11 PM

I know you to be a Romney supporter so when I see you promoting Cain, it does set off warning bells… :)

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 9:13 PM

“Such an optional flat tax system would create a new standard deduction, which would be above the established poverty level, meaning an optional flat tax would not unfairly target the poor.”

Picking winners and losers. Some Right Wing Social Engineering. How many won’t pay any taxes under this proposal. Lots.

andy85719 on October 12, 2011 at 9:15 PM

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:13 PM

You argued that by my supporting Romney Im supporting statism. If you are going to make the charge the onus is on you prove it and not on me to disprove it.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:16 PM

I know you to be a Romney supporter so when I see you promoting Cain, it does set off warning bells… :)

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 9:13 PM

I’m sorry, what? Mitt? Seriously? I know I agitated against pretty much all of the True Conservative losers in 2010, but come on.

I was a T-Paw guy, then he left. I jumped to Perry, and then he decided to call me heartless and showed me he can’t find a complete sentence with two hands and a flashlight. Cain’s impressed me, so I’m backing him. I respect a candidate who can actually communicate a clear message, even if that’s a message that you guys hyperventilate over.

KingGold on October 12, 2011 at 9:16 PM

Fear of the unknown. Just imagine what those poor little lobbyists will have to do for a living if they can’t get paid to protect their clients loopholes. Level the playing field and make it bigger to include the 47 percent of folks paying no income tax currently.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

It is not fear of the unknown.

Its knowledge of what Congress will do and the certainty that these taxes will be increased by subsequent administrations. Its knowledge of what has happened elsewhere with these sorts of taxes and how they so easily morph into VAT’s and where that leads. Its knowledge of what happened with Reagan when he tried to make a deal with Congress and how the revenue increases took place, but the promised reductions never did.

sharrukin on October 12, 2011 at 9:17 PM

I was a T-Paw guy, then he left. I jumped to Perry, and then he decided to call me heartless and showed me he can’t find a complete sentence with two hands and a flashlight. Cain’s impressed me, so I’m backing him. I respect a candidate who can actually communicate a clear message, even if that’s a message that you guys hyperventilate over.

KingGold on October 12, 2011 at 9:16 PM

Quite frankly King, I don’t give a rat’s patoot who you supported and when or why. The time to debate the merits of 9-9-9, such as they are, is when President Herman Cain is trying to push it through Congress. It infuriates me to no end that we’re supposed to christen Romney before a single primary/caucus vote is cast and that we’re trying a legislative policy in the court of public opinion. I guess I shouldn’t expect patience from the masses steeped in soundbites and instant media, but come on!

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:21 PM

We don’t need any 999 plan to make changes in the corporate tax rate. After you’ve reviewed the 999, then post back. There are many negatives and once people realize what those are, it’s not a good thing.

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 7:49 PM
And you should stop listening to some of the biased, misinformation that’s being posted her at HA about the 9-9-9 plan. I think you’re the one that needs to review it independently instead listening to what others are telling you here.

Knucklehead on October 12, 2011 at 7:56 PM

If you would point out to me which posts are biased and contain misinformation, I’d be glad to review them.

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 9:22 PM

Besides, it’s not like President Herman Cain could implement 9-9-9 without sending it through Congress first.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

…and if he won the election in a landslide with his 9-9-9 mandate, and Congress pushed back, President Cain and the voters can send them packing in 2014.

A real revolution could actually take place that would have tangible benefits and brighter futures for all Americans, rich, poor and everyone in between.

9-9-9. Let the cards fall where they may.

Saltysam on October 12, 2011 at 9:22 PM

Why can’t Cain win in Nevada?

There are many, many Tea Party supporters there.

slp on October 12, 2011 at 9:24 PM

I see the Bachmann Cain gambit to split conservatives is not working well for Team Romney… so it’s now Gingrich?

LOL… nice try.

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 9:11 PM

Google my name, Perry and Hot Air together and you should come across a mass amount of threads where I did nothing but defend Perry. You agreed with my defenses multiple times in those threads. I still defend Perry against extreme haters like Sheryl with their racist rock attacks.

Accusing me of employing some sort of gambit or ploy to split Conservatives is pretty damn foolish of you. This board was flooded with Perry supporters not too long ago, yet you’re crying foul now that you are one of the few left? Perry’s damage is self inflicted and his support was anti-Romney, plain and simple.

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 9:26 PM

“The time to debate the merits of 9-9-9, such as they are, is when President Herman Cain is trying to push it through Congress.”

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:21 PM

Excuse me? It’s the basis of his whole campaign, he refers to it in every other sentence, it’s badly written, poorly documented and has loopholes large enough to drive a Mac Truck through, and we’re not supposed to debate it now?

If that doesn’t sound frighteningly similar to Nancy Pelosi’s “we have to pass it to find out what’s in it” statement to you, then I just don’t know what to say.

HTL on October 12, 2011 at 9:28 PM

TheRightMan on October 12, 2011 at 9:11 PM

WOW, I just re-read your comment and it’s even worse the second time. You are saying I am part of Team Romney?

Yet on this very page:

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 8:35 PM

Daemonocracy on October 12, 2011 at 9:29 PM

But most “Fair Tax” theory holds that the rate would be 30%. He calls it the “Fair Tax” in his Phase II plan – so I can only assume his national sales tax would be 30% unless he specified otherwise. And he never has.

HondaV65 on October 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM

One of the problems I have with this 999 plan, is that it is much more complicated and involved than he tries to make it. Many of the effects he doesn’t speak of, like a 9% tax on Food. How this all works together and the various stages and most importantly how will it be implemented.

I wouldn’t buy any Stock if someone told me I could buy it today and in October 2012 it would increase in value 1000%.

Why not reduce the Tax Rates since that has always worked before?
At least it would be faster.

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 9:30 PM

Some Mitt voters aren’t even attempting to defend the indefensible. Mitt’s just the best we can come up with or something.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:06 PM

They’re counting on rushing him through in the next few months, like one of Obama’s bills. This is the mark of an anxious and insecure “frontrunner.” The longer it goes on, the worse it is for him. We need to make sure that happens.

rrpjr on October 12, 2011 at 9:31 PM

Nicolle Wallace was on Hannity waxing eloquent about Herman Cain. The fix is in. Mitt is the conductor on the Cain Train.

Punchenko on October 12, 2011 at 9:34 PM

Art Laffer, former Reagan Econ Advisor and creator of the Laffer Curve, just endorsed Cain’s 9-9-9 plan. Most impressive!

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46828

dforston on October 12, 2011 at 9:35 PM

Excuse me? It’s the basis of his whole campaign, he refers to it in every other sentence, it’s badly written, poorly documented and has loopholes large enough to drive a Mac Truck through, and we’re not supposed to debate it now?

If that doesn’t sound frighteningly similar to Nancy Pelosi’s “we have to pass it to find out what’s in it” statement to you, then I just don’t know what to say.

HTL on October 12, 2011 at 9:28 PM

So now you’re comparing Herman Cain to Nancy Pelosi. I got news for you pal. That dog ain’t huntin’. Herman Cain has laid out enough specifics in the bill for me to feel comfortable voting for him in the primaries. That doesn’t necessarily mean that I would encourage my congressional delegation to vote for 9-9-9 if it came up, but to compare my “we should debate it in congress” to “we have to pass the bill to find out what’s in it” is intellectual dishonesty in the first degree.

Mitt Romney’s campaign motto:

Mitt 2012: Because you have no alternative. Really. I’m not kidding.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:36 PM

If you would point out to me which posts are biased and contain misinformation, I’d be glad to review them.

bluefox on October 12, 2011 at 9:22 PM

What am I, your slave? Put the warm yellow KoolAid down, throw your own numbers into Turbo Tax using the 999 plan and figure it out yourself.

But then again you’re a Perry supporter tearing down 999 with your hyperventilating “OMG it’s so dangerous” while your guy has yet to offer up anything.

Knucklehead on October 12, 2011 at 9:36 PM

Whats funny to me reading all of the Cains supporters attacks on Romney, is that they seem to conveniently forget that in one of the first debates Cain said he would pick Romney as VP if he would get on board with 999. The candidates you all want to beat Romney so bad clearly like him which is why they dont attempt to lay a glove on him in debates.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:37 PM

For the record, I’m not even sure that 9-9-9 is a good idea. But for all its “loopholes” and lack of specificity, it’s a sight more specific than anything Mitt Romney or Rick Perry has come up with. Unless “I want to make government inconsequential” has been elevated to a substantive policy position now.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:38 PM

Whats funny to me reading all of the Cains supporters attacks on Romney, is that they seem to conveniently forget that in one of the first debates Cain said he would pick Romney as VP if he would get on board with 999. The candidates you all want to beat Romney so bad clearly like him which is why they dont attempt to lay a glove on him in debates.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:37 PM

Romney gets the liberal Republican voters and can’t get any more. That’s why he’s stuck at 25% and can’t go any higher. No real conservative would vote for him.

dforston on October 12, 2011 at 9:39 PM

Level the playing field and make it bigger to include the 47 percent of folks paying no income tax currently.

txmomof6 on October 12, 2011 at 9:09 PM

A great percentage of these people would have higher success rates at improving their incomes with the opportunities available in a productivity based economy. They would be happy to have a reasonable amount of skin in the game.

The political implications alone, of a happy “skin in the game” electorate should be enough for us to support such radical reform.

We must enable our brothers and sisters to see the forest through the trees.

Saltysam on October 12, 2011 at 9:39 PM

The candidates you all want to beat Romney so bad clearly like him which is why they dont attempt to lay a glove on him in debates.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:37 PM

Could it possibly be that they don’t see pro-choice, pro-mandate Mitt Romney as much of a threat to their own presidential ambitions? You could be right, but I’m just saying that’s not necessarily the only reason…

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:39 PM

dforston on October 12, 2011 at 9:39 PM

Why wont the quote unquote real conservatives in that debate hit him? Even Santorum when Romney was talking about how he would repeal Obamacare with reconciliation was just smiling and nodding along with him. Why wont any of them throw a punch? Is this not strange to anyone else? He and Bachman were practically holding hands accorss the table and Cain’s comment on TARP was “I agree with Mitt”.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:41 PM

dforston on October 12, 2011 at 9:35 PM

I like Art Laffer and he’s a great economist, but obviously he wants Obama to have another four years. The man did vote for Clinton in ’92 to refresh some memories.

Pushing a national sales tax that “broadens the tax base” is a sure fire loser in this economic climate. I don’t want to see Obama & Co. and their billion dollar campaign paint the GOP as the party of higher taxes on lower income people — most especially with the OWS folks gathering steam.

Punchenko on October 12, 2011 at 9:41 PM

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:39 PM

Hes leading though! The anti Romney crowd is looking for someone who can beat Romney, isnt that right? So wouldn’t it make since if you want to be the “anti Romney” that conservatives can rally around, wouldn’t you want to prove you can take down the giant? They wont touch him. This is a major reason I have a problem with this field, they just dont seem to want it.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:43 PM

HTL on October 12, 2011 at 8:56 PM

Yep there is nothing more than some general guidelines. It looks like more like notes for a sales pitch than a plan. Serious, I do that kind of stuff and have for industry for decades.

Kermit on October 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM

Pushing a national sales tax that “broadens the tax base” is a sure fire loser in this economic climate. I don’t want to see Obama & Co. and their billion dollar campaign paint the GOP as the party of higher taxes on lower income people — most especially with the OWS folks gathering steam.

Punchenko on October 12, 2011 at 9:41 PM

Herman Cain isn’t pushing a national sales tax. He’s campaigning on it. The “pushing” happens after he’s elected, if he’s elected at all.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM

Art Laffer, former Reagan Econ Advisor and creator of the Laffer Curve, just endorsed Cain’s 9-9-9 plan. Most impressive!

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46828

dforston on October 12, 2011 at 9:35 PM

That’s huge!

Knucklehead on October 12, 2011 at 9:45 PM

Hes leading though! The anti Romney crowd is looking for someone who can beat Romney, isnt that right? So wouldn’t it make since if you want to be the “anti Romney” that conservatives can rally around, wouldn’t you want to prove you can take down the giant? They wont touch him. This is a major reason I have a problem with this field, they just dont seem to want it.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:43 PM

Cain is sticking his political neck out with 9-9-9. Seems to me like if you’re going by appearances, Cain wants it worse than anyone else does. Your mileage may vary.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:46 PM

All of us are already paying attention and are engaged in the republican primary process. How large of a percentage of the rest of the electorate is paying attention to the campaign season?

I bet if you asked those people at OWS, not all of them are aware that the republican primaries are underway…or who is running for reelection back in their home districts….or who the Vice President of the U.S. happens to be?

It’s October 12th 2011. I just don’t think that many people are paying close attention to the republican primary yet – we are because we are political/news junkies.

I think this is why Pawlenty wishes he hadn’t jumped out so soon. McCotter had to if he couldn’t get traction he needed start his Campaign for his house seat.

Dr Evil on October 12, 2011 at 9:47 PM

Its knowledge of what Congress will do…
sharrukin on October 12, 2011 at 9:17 PM

has done, is doing, always will do.

This is a fact of life on planet earth.

You’re happy with the current mess?

I don’t care if Grover Norquist is President for two terms. Nothing will stop future Congresses from their mischief. The Constitution is clear about that.

Cain’s plan is refreshing and radical enough to make real substantial changes in the way the people of this nation control their destiny.

Saltysam on October 12, 2011 at 9:48 PM

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:46 PM

My point is, we are several debates in now and no one will touch him. No one will go after him. Hes right there, vulnerable, and they wont touch him. Cain, when he wasnt agreeing with Romney, used his opportunity to attack Romney by asking him a softball question. I dont see the fight in any of these guys except Romney.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:49 PM

I dont see the fight in any of these guys except Romney.

nswider on October 12, 2011 at 9:49 PM

And I don’t see conservatism in Romney. “Fight” is low on my list of priorities in presidential candidates. Again, your mileage may vary.

gryphon202 on October 12, 2011 at 9:51 PM

Twerp is walking through the stable as I type. Time to change horses once again as they load her trusty steed, Gov. Rick, onto the truck to the glue factory.

Maybe Black Lightning wasn’t a bad horse after all.

bw222 on October 12, 2011 at 9:52 PM

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